Bue gee

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Is it possible for anyone to tell me what is the reasons behind bending forward and touching the ground with your finger tips in Bue gee (last hand form)?


Thank you
Hitman

[k gledhill]

bil gee knife hand

fingers are the point of the blade
edge of hand cut like the blade
forearm deflect like the body of the blade...

stab the person on ground , bring knife up to guard head while recovering
ducking to avoid blade from opponent/s

both sides do this to develop symmetry.


before you give someone a knife, you train them ... bare handed . a lot of bil gee has recovery actions , knife/hand actions. Done in a form to 'modulate' the drill's , the form has nothing to do with the tactical delivery of 'face off'. you dont fight like you do the form. You simply take time to perfect hand /line , balance timing etc... isolating actions that you dont have time to 'perfect' while fighting.

the bare hands can act like knifes, but done at knife distances they lose the cut parry quality and turn to arm fighting /chasing . ergo the knife would be taught last, but explained first.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . bring knife up to guard head while recovering
ducking to avoid blade from opponent/s . . .
That is definitely one aspect of the bend. If you're even knocked down you need to raise your hands above your head for protection before standing up.
btw, I see you teach in Manhattan.
I have a class at 77 Mulberry St. Sat .4:30-6:00
and Sun 12noon-2:00pm. Maybe we can get together when I'm in the city. Here's my cell; 586-215-9631

[couch]

Dear all,
Is it possible for anyone to tell me what is the reasons behind bending forward and touching the ground with your finger tips in Bue gee (last hand form)?


Thank you
Hitman

I don't do this.

I see the pre-movements (such as bending over) as a preparation for recovery. First, I put myself in a bad position and then use the most direct path to return. This is how I see this form.

So for the position in question, I bend over (my centre is pretty much facing the floor) and then recover by bringing my hands up and over my head first. Similar to what they teach in swimming after a dive: hand up first so that the hand hits the boat and not your head. There's also an upward elbow in there. :cool:

Best,
Kenton

[RGVWingChun]

I've seen it explained as covering the head whenever you are getting up. I've also seen the wu tao explained as cover when your too close for tan sao, you can use the wu tao to cover a wide incoming strike and then come underneath their elbow for a lock/break. I've also seen one instructor explain it as cover movement during multiple attacker situations that was interesting, but I don't know how effective it would be...

[couch]

I've seen it explained as covering the head whenever you are getting up. I've also seen the wu tao explained as cover when your too close for tan sao, you can use the wu tao to cover a wide incoming strike and then come underneath their elbow for a lock/break. I've also seen one instructor explain it as cover movement during multiple attacker situations that was interesting, but I don't know how effective it would be...

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a Wu Tao (translation/explanation)?

Thanks,
Kenton

[k gledhill]

That is definitely one aspect of the bend. If you're even knocked down you need to raise your hands above your head for protection before standing up.
btw, I see you teach in Manhattan.
I have a class at 77 Mulberry St. Sat .4:30-6:00
and Sun 12noon-2:00pm. Maybe we can get together when I'm in the city. Here's my cell; 586-215-9631

sure Im at fighthouse , I do private lessons during the day, if your in the city 10am-12pm call 917-757-7493 Im working too so if we can meet depends on schedule and yours.
kev

[Phil Redmond]

sure Im at fighthouse , I do private lessons during the day, if your in the city 10am-12pm call 917-757-7493 Im working too so if we can meet depends on schedule and yours.
kev
Cool, I'll call you.
Phil

[RGVWingChun]

wu tao was what one of my former instructor called that movement in biu gee. "Protective________" he never really explained the name of movement. It was more of a protective covering of sorts

[anerlich]

I've seen this move explained as thrusting the hips back and arms away from the body as a counter to a rear bear hug attempt (though there's a similar but different move in TWC's ASLT as well). I've also seen the lift of body and arms as positioning for a rear breakfall (not sure I'd do this myself).

Those as well as the recovery/protect the head already mentioned, which seem higher percentage to me.

I don't actually try to touch the ground, either, FWIW.

[RGVWingChun]

oh yeah...one time I saw it as if someone was grabbing you from behind with a type of takedown and you reach down with both hands and grap their foot (more than likely placed in between yours) and you grab it and pull it out in front of you to trip them. That was an interesting take that I got from an instructor in the Ip Ching lineage

[Lee Chiang Po]

I asked Mr. Lee once what it meant, and he just smiled and said it meant anything I wanted it to mean. It is actually a double Fut Sao. After having to bend down to do the double Bil Gee, you have a possible blind spot and you use the Fut Sao blocking technique to cover that for you. This move is practiced with a brisk motion if possible.
Most people have a problem interpreting these moves because they are trying to give it meaning like the other Kung Fu forms we see. There are no fighting simulations in the Wing Chun forms.

[couch]

I asked Mr. Lee once what it meant, and he just smiled and said it meant anything I wanted it to mean. It is actually a double Fut Sao. After having to bend down to do the double Bil Gee, you have a possible blind spot and you use the Fut Sao blocking technique to cover that for you. This move is practiced with a brisk motion if possible.
Most people have a problem interpreting these moves because they are trying to give it meaning like the other Kung Fu forms we see. There are no fighting simulations in the Wing Chun forms.

I know that there are a few interpretations of BJ, but I use the Moy Yat idea of "Standard Compass" or the WSL idea "All Points North," etc. That way, the form always seems to place me back in an ideal position.

The form, as it was taught and how I use it, seems to place my centreline and arms in various positions and offers ways of recovering both.

There are no fighting simulations as you put it, but I feel that WC should be drilled no differently than any other martial art, ie: one-step sparring, over and over. Then there's Chi Sau and Free-Flow sparring to bridge the gaps.

Best,
Kenton

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . There are no fighting simulations in the Wing Chun forms.
When you say there are no fighting simulations in the WC form do you mean that there are no fighting applications? If so that's not the case. I can make a clip showing lots of fighting apps from the forms.

[couch]

When you say there are no fighting simulations in the WC form do you mean that there are no fighting applications? If so that's not the case. I can make a clip showing lots of fighting apps from the forms.

I like clips (just egging ya on to make more clips... :))

[Phil Redmond]

I like clips (just egging ya on to make more clips... :))
Then I'll do just that. :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

Oh no. I don't mean that it is not usable for fighting. It is all designed for that purpose. What I was trying to say was that it is not a pretend fight that you are having. I once talked with a ****o Karate man that told me that they had something like 90 odd forms that they had to learn eventually. Each form was a prearrainged fight sequence that had to be performed as if you were actually fighting. This made the style far too rigid I feel.
A single concept such as taan sao can be applied to an almost infinite number of situations. I am also fairly well versed in Jap JJ. There are probably about 50 different techniques, maybe even fewer, but I have close to 600 applications for them. It is also a conceptual form of fighting.
I think that most of these people might be trying to learn from books. Which is ok I guess if you don't have anyone that can help you along. But the problem is that they do not fully understand the concepts of Chi Sao and what it does for you. They seem to think that in a fight you immediately want to cross arms with someone. But as someone that has had a few fights I am sure you would agree that this is not how it comes down. When I was a kid I did Chi Sao a lot, but then one day I was told it was childs game. That I was now going to have to learn what I was training for. I had to start fighting. I am not sure that Chi Sao helped me at all, but I think that it did. I was able to do 2 things at one time and did not have a weak or strong side. I have not done Chi Sao much since. I have with people that I was teaching, but only until they could do it with someone else. Chi Sao teaches you fluid hand motion as well as how to use your techniques properly. It also helps you to seperate right from left. This is very important. Most people will fight with a weak and a strong side, but Chi Sao will teach you to be strong on both sides. Fluid hand movements equate to speed. Speed means power.

A good example of Bil Gee is the elbow strikes. We know that the elbow is a very short range weapon. It is only half as long as the arm. You have to be rubbing bellies almost in order to use them. This is exactly the concept here. A person has come in on you and is trying to smother you or pin your weapons to your side. Sort of like boxers holding. The elbow strikes are then usable, and then the Bil Gee comes from under the elbow. It can not be seen coming and can not be blocked. These are concepts that work outside the box. This is Bil Gee.

[k gledhill]

the elbow move in Bil gee isn't a strike ;) the 'idea' before it guides this logic.
The idea of training line /hand relationships is true for hand knife line too in BiuJee . Only broken down and modulated into a sequence / s, we can do on our own to improve and ingrain them into our repertoire.
Like going under our arms to recover what ? to get back to our prime tactical positions we lost by simply doing what ? in an unbroken flow, just not like usual.
Or meeting an immovable object :D and showing it how to spin on its axis. Many learn Lop sao as the be all end all move rather than a last resort from ...Bil Gee.

Seeking application in all the moves can be misleading.

Once you understand the elbow idea and why its like it is in the system the whole system becomes one of developing this simple 'idea'.

Bil Gee serves simply to recover our ability to continue the 'idea' because it was grabbed , lifted higher than normal , got trapped yourself , had to turn someone back to the line of attack due to bad position/s ...and more !; )

Think of a weapon that is longer , higher than ours...how to attack the arm holding the spear nearest us . how to slice and move , recover lateral blocking attempts as we come in to chop /stab/ slice ...the engagement isnt a long one , ergo the recovery moves serve to do just that as we go in for the .....

After all the mean man just tried to stick you with a sharp pointy weapon, its simply being a mirror, reflecting but not holding , moving like water and not thinking while you

reflect :D

[anerlich]

I asked Mr. Lee once what it meant, and he just smiled and said it meant anything I wanted it to mean. It is actually a double Fut Sao.

Those two statements directly contradict each other. Is it a fut sao, or is it whatever you want it to be?


oh yeah...one time I saw it as if someone was grabbing you from behind with a type of takedown and you reach down with both hands and grap their foot (more than likely placed in between yours) and you grab it and pull it out in front of you to trip them. That was an interesting take that I got from an instructor in the Ip Ching lineage

That's a fairly basic wrestling counter and setup for a legbar. You could also do the rolling legbar from here, though saying that is an application of the form is drawing far too long a bow IMO.

[Phil Redmond]

Oh no. I don't mean that it is not usable for fighting. It is all designed for that purpose. . . . .
Thanks for clearing that up. . . . :)

[Phil Redmond]

the elbow move in Bil gee isn't a strike ;) . . .
I've studied WC from different linages and I've learned it is either an elbow strike or an arm break in TWC and in other YMWC. The elbow strike is simply up close and personal. ;)

[couch]

I've studied WC from different linages and I've learned it is either an elbow strike or an arm break in TWC and in other YMWC. The elbow strike is simply up close and personal. ;)

Very personal. Elbows are scary things...but I was always taught: diamond to diamond, elbow to elbow. Also why I think it is an important move at the beginning of the BJ: as you bring your Kwai Jaat elbow around, you pull your head back and tuck in the chin. I think this emphasizes moving your head out of the way (in any way) instead of being Mr. Robot.

[Phil Redmond]

Very personal. Elbows are scary things...but I was always taught: diamond to diamond, elbow to elbow. Also why I think it is an important move at the beginning of the BJ: as you bring your Kwai Jaat elbow around, you pull your head back and tuck in the chin. I think this emphasizes moving your head out of the way (in any way) instead of being Mr. Robot.

If the face is there and so is the elbow I'm going for it. ;)
Biu Jee form
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp
Here's one in Toronto with Lake Ontario in the background.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips.asp

[Lee Chiang Po]

> I asked Mr. Lee once what it meant, and he just smiled and said it meant anything I wanted it to mean. It is actually a double Fut Sao.

Those two statements directly contradict each other. Is it a fut sao, or is it whatever you want it to be?<



??? What is contradictory about that? He told me that it was whatever I wanted it to be. So I want it to be a double Fut Sao.

"K", For all that you just said, I did not understand any of it. Maybe my English is just not good enough.


My opinion of the elbow is not that high. It is a short weapon that can not muster the power I need while maintaining good solid structure. I have used it in close combat. So close that I was not able to use my footwork and structure which would render my hand techniques less than effective otherwise. Now, the arm break that was mentioned, it is one of the times that the elbow is a good thing. The opposing elbow is at correct range if it is within attack range, so if you can pull the attacking arm across you can easily apply the breaking power without having to break with your stance.
But, just attacking someone with the elbows is like going to a stick fight carrying only half a stick. Well, unless you have really long arms. Which I don't

[anerlich]

??? What is contradictory about that? He told me that it was whatever I wanted it to be. So I want it to be a double Fut Sao.

OK. I want it to be MetalStorm Technology (http://www.metalstorm.com/). We both might be wrong.

A critically minded person might wonder if Mr Lee gave that "answer" because he didn't know himself but didn't want to admit it.

I stand corrected. It wasn't contradictory, just useless.

[couch]

If the face is there and so is the elbow I'm going for it. ;)
Biu Jee form
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp
Here's one in Toronto with Lake Ontario in the background.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips.asp

I always found the stepping in the TWC BJ so interesting. ;)

Never learned it with my short stint in TWC, but funny thing, I started the swords there though.

EDIT: Watched the vid again. Learned the form...LOL...it's been a while!

[k gledhill]

I've studied WC from different linages and I've learned it is either an elbow strike or an arm break in TWC and in other YMWC. The elbow strike is simply up close and personal. ;)

me too both from Yip Man students V Kan Taught it as elbow v elbow...the upraising and lowering of the elbow covers another attempted elbow strike by raising and lowering on it then hitting with the other elbow :D it works ...but not the idea.

second is from WSL idea to remove a hand that has grabbed your lead wrist while striking , a common defensive gesture to being attacked . They grab the nearest thing to them , and as we attack with the arms as such it is a removal we need to do quickly to regain 2 free striking hands on the flanked recipient...simple over back to wailing on the guy :D before he wails on me , more involved but I'm trying to keep it simple.

The key differences in use are the primary tactical directive and development of the techniques to follow that idea....if the idea works and is stopped we need to regain the freehand asap. Just as the basic idea of tut-sao/ senk sao aka the shaving hands of SLT. These arent done low pointing to the ground to remove a grabbed wrist [ common misinterpretation of 'freeing hand] but to recover the lead hand to becomethe rear 'free' vusao to strike out uninterupted aka unstoppable hand to strike ....with this thinking a grabbed hand in the lead needs help ergo the elbow comes over the forearm of the grabber and drops over and down to do a wrist break.release in a blink and resume to fight freehanded or holding a knife ;) that has been grabbed at the wrist..:)

I love this system !

Like the tut sao going over the arms to to the target traveling the centerline with the wrists and elbows tight to form an acute angle as we strike recovering any attempts to block the strikes entry by lateral defensive actions....we are the rain on the windshield they are fighting us like windshield wipers..they may take the first rains drops off but it doesnt stop the rain coming :D

Bil gee serves to do this same action when we do bil sao under the arms , its the same action but toa higher /raised arm as we attack in...seamlessly we recover the rain shower breaking the primary physical method but maintaining the attack in an unrelenting manner ...obviously there is some inherent danger of attacking under the bridge , so it is done when appropriate ...

being trapped and recovering our ability to continue uninterupted in the primary idea of attacking longer than the other guy...concept.
How to do this ..techniques that allow continous attacking actions in either a ..
a} 2 freehands striking [ centerpunches ] on a tactical position [flanks presented by lateral attempts to stop said blitz]
b} one interupted hand removing by pak/jut/bong/ etc... to make way for the VU sao aka free hand to strike
c} bil gee , attempts to grab wrists, turning stronger opponents on their axis point to recover the attack line without stopping, striking under the raised bridge to get back to [a] or we have a bad bong sao that needs help ergo lop sao in bil gee not SLT.


everything is aimed at getting back to [a] asap simple ;)

Chi-sao simply teaches [a] to have each punch going in acting like a blocking forearm/strike in rotation using the tan & jum not as the actual fighting 'poses' but sides of the centerline we are striking/defending as we attack unthinking along a flanked and weakend opponent...proximity drills of seung ma toi ma teach to recieve and follow this concept and be able to deliver the idea in a flowing attack like water crashing on rocks . I love throwing in those analogies :D corny but helps visualize the idea as a flowing attack taking any channel the opponent takes seamlessly attacking eitheside with the same arms trained equally is SLT but fired in movement with chum kil, recovered by biul gee to get back to simply being water....circle. yin yang ah! there I go again

[Lee Chiang Po]

OK. I want it to be MetalStorm Technology. We both might be wrong.

A critically minded person might wonder if Mr Lee gave that "answer" because he didn't know himself but didn't want to admit it.

I stand corrected. It wasn't contradictory, just useless.


What does Metalstorm Technology have to do with this? Speaking of useless. No, Mr Lee knew exactly what it was. He was just letting me find it for myself. And I did. Like I said, it is double Fut Sao. There is nothing mysterious or philosophical about it. Just a plain old double Fut Sao.

[Liddel]

For me the Double Fut Sao is about recovery of loss of balance with the use protecting and releasing pulling arms by way of the shoulder...hence why i do it with the elbow straight in the form....The emphasis is on the legs and shoulder.

We have a step with the Formal Form action unlike other schools.

Sifu actually told me a long time ago GM Ip used to come up behind students as they bent foward and lighlty kicked them off balance to assist the effect LOL :rolleyes:

Seems like others have thier own use...Different strokes for different folks.

DREW

[YungChun]

SLT but fired in movement with chum kil, recovered by biul gee to get back to simply being water....circle.

Agreed.. Good stuff..

Love the windshield analogy--Add in the high pressure water hose.. :)

[k gledhill]

Corny but can convey the idea...:D

the reason for our striking being linear elbows in is so we dont present this form of lateral windshiled blocks ourselves when being attacked by our own idea ....this the reason tan doesnt leave the centerline to block in the air ...we know it doesnt work , its not meant to function like this , it serves to develop a little idea, that will mature through dan ci-sao...chi-sao etc...

the untrained fighter will turn 'themselves' [ natural reaction ] to avoid the linear strikes . Simply because they arent trying to attack with the same strike/ deflect ...sure they strike :D but the tactical idea puts us at a better &#37; position to use the 'attack' idea.
The primary entry is to be outside one arm or the other by countering the movements of the opponent . Standing in the center or attacking his center [ meaning face to face] is allowing even the most basic school yard fighter the 'flanking' hay-maker to ourselves , not good. So the simple 1st thing is to move to NOT allow the flanking strikes by maintaining a perrimiter to the attacker , draw a circle around yourself and move inside like a clock face , relative to the line that enters it ....the circle can move like a freefighter feinting and using body feints like any sporting event to draw a person or enter on it. Think ' No Mas' !
Duran v Leanard :D ....
the entry once we adopt the attacking mind will allow the opponent to X the line of our direction , as long as it perpetuates the windshield wiper effect only now they have tried to angle the whole car before us to use the other windshied wiper , again we just let the car turn so we dont endup inbetween the wipers with the car now coming at us with force, not good. Or trying to stick to the wipers while standing in front of the force, the car can move at us before we even start to wiper chase redundantly. We try to avoid letting them do 'facing', their max potential to work their stuff. Attacking the blindside against one wiper using full 'hose effect'.
Because our arms dont fight like chi-sao [both equally extended] we never worry about all the water being swiped away in each wiper action, rather alternate to jam the wiper if it allows it rather than look for the wiper when we simply need to be a moving rain shower, staying out of the way of the car trying to drive us over , as long as we stay inside the turning arc it cant get us , like a bull fighter standing inside the arc of the bulls neck or a dog fight , we seek to stay inside the neck area while training with a partner who is also like a bull dog car for our training purposes .
This is one reason the system can be said to not be a sparring/point art rather a combat entry to finish rather than in & out fighting ergo knives/pole as the guiding lights. Makes wrestling/BJJ/judo , the perfect compliment to a concept that wants to gain entry and maintain it without backing off to allow a rain shower back to us :D
I had my coach describe VT fighting like a water fight. Even if you stand and block like we do chi-sao , a little water will get through , its a % thing . So we stay drier this way. ;)
When the arms are trained in a process using the dan chi-sao..it is to make our arms a simple punch not a block down with wrist and then hit , but to develop the ability of the individual arms to behave like 2 as they strike off the line [ tan elbow spreads off the line as it hits] & Jum sao [ elbow in along the line while tan elbow is leading ahead off the line] together they make a seamless centerline sweep in rotation like tut sao the rear hand free to strike or help the partnership to overwhelm the isolated wiper .

It is brief and functional if kept simple . Chi-sao simply acts to be an equal point for both fighters doing the same thing to alternate the roles in close functional proximity to point of impact and staying with it. Not to become facing dirty clinchers, it breaks the basic logic of knife fighting an equally armed adversary. why fight another equally ? its not SPORT :D

[Phil Redmond]

Back in the 70's it was taught that WC people have three hands. Left and right hand and each elbow is half a hand. That meant that an elbow can be used wherever there is an opportunity/target.

[k gledhill]

thats the thinking sort of with wsl ..the forearm by elbow control [inwards] via slt training creates a line along either side of the forearms that caan defelct as it hits being so acute an angle and low . Each arm becomes 2 rather than us fighting with the common 2 hands v 1 ...we try to be 1hand acting like 2 in rotation , freely striking 1 isolated flanked arm....the system is this through development that is lost when the wrist is used to stick to the contact points made , rather than use each others chi-sao to further develop the slt idea for freefighting , using this idea....cutting strikes in rotation along a line that dont allow entry and only need to stop to remove the interruption with non thinking reactions from chi-sao drills.
The dan chi is a 2 stage development of single 'dual action' strikes later ...rather than a 2 stage fighting response.
tan becomes a training position not a block to fight with , same as jum sao..partners in crime.

Chi-sao is a random arena to adopt the idea in a fluid random response manner to ingrain the idea , coupled with a tactical guide to deliver the attacking idea....

[LoneTiger108]

Corny but can convey the idea...:D

... the system can be said to not be a sparring/point art rather a combat entry to finish rather than in & out fighting ergo knives/pole as the guiding lights. Makes wrestling/BJJ/judo , the perfect compliment to a concept that wants to gain entry and maintain it without backing off to allow a rain shower back to us :D

... It is brief and functional if kept simple . Chi-sao simply acts to be an equal point for both fighters doing the same thing to alternate the roles in close functional proximity to point of impact and staying with it. Not to become facing dirty clinchers, it breaks the basic logic of knife fighting an equally armed adversary. why fight another equally ? its not SPORT :D

Classic stuff ;)