Chi Sao; don’t over work the mind (strong stance)…

[Ali. R]

Here is a question that someone asked me on my site…


How can one begin or start too understand forward sensitivity, and stay very relaxed when energy is being pushed towards you, as you explained in an article on your website?


First of all, you must understand the concept behind what you’re trying too accomplish… Well, in the case of chi sao you should have had that understood in the SLT system (don chi sao)…

If you’re having trouble staying soft when playing chi sao, I suggest that you really begin to explore the don chi sao within your wing chun structure, if the mechanics of the don chi sao never promotes redirection through complete softness and sensitivity, then I suggest try another structure until you can find a way too naturalize or redirected energy through complete softness and sensitivity…

The main thing is too make sure that the mind is not over worked, meaning that your overall structure dealing with forward sensitivity must stay connected to the your stance, and your upper and lower extremities must stay connected to the floor through your stance…

If there’s no strong connection as I mention just above, then the mind will become over worked and the hands will become tense or tight, then one will begin too fall off the track or the road that guides his structure directly to the right offensive and defensive line that needs to be occupied when under pressure, and if one just cant find it, then its a structure problem…

Your chi sao structure must fit and work within your stance, just as the gears works within a watch, if the gears do not fit correctly within the watch, then one will never begin to understand what time it is… The concept of understanding true wing chun attacks is through timing and having a strong connection to the floor, by connecting the upper and lower extremities through you stance, it will help promote good softness and forward sensitivity; hence, very good defensive structure with very little thought pattern…

The main key as far as the Woo Fai Ching system dealing with chi sao, is the fook sao… If one cannot master the understanding or ideal dealing with the fook sao, then he or she will always have trouble dealing with double line sensitivity, because in the start of you chi sao studies the fook sao is always misunderstood… Why? Because the fook sao do nothing but ride or should cling to structure, and the other side or arm cycles from tan to bong; in other words that side have something too do, in which helps keeps the mind pre-occupied while almost losing the ideal or mechanics dealing with the fook sao… Just master of try to understand the mechanics of the fook sao through total softness and forward sensitivity, then I’m sure you’ll find what you’re looking for…

The more one can control his fook sao through good forward sensitivity and line control, the softer and stronger his overall chi sao structure will become…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

How do you use the Lop-Sao in Chi Sao? When is it best to use and not to use and why so?

[Ali. R]

The lop sao is a funny thing, because its really good in giving someone instant gratification of achievement (Hey look what I can do!), a lop sao attack can turn into a bunch of superficial moves if your not careful…

The reason why I don’t use the lop sao as a offensive measure often is; when attacking with a lop sao and too make it a money shot as well, you have to have great timing too pull it off, which is all good; but it’s a lot of work epically for the lazy mind… When having good line theory understood and in action means that your forward energy is working well, so there’s no reason why one should use a lop sao too change a line or whatever, you really don’t need to lop, epically if the lops your doing crosses your hands over each other…

When making a lop; such as the bong lop or lop cycle, the hands crosses over each other for just a moment, if one has good timing one can trap his or her opponent just by punching over the top of their opponents lopping hand or using a bil jee thrush just barely touching their chest with a small but subtle movement, and while using lop sao attacks you’re actually making openings within your structure, because if one has good timing you could actually get hit right in the middle of that movement…

You may said; ok then, what’s the deal with the lop: The lop sao is used too change the line of attack in the Woo W.C system, but we don’t make or force the line too happen when we lop, we change the line when it comes to us (opponents attacks or forward energy), and with good timing you can do that right in the middle of your opponents attack, but while learning the lop sao attacks, we execute it the opposite way (attacking) too gain good understanding or ideal of that particular lop technique…

I was taught the best time to lop is when under attack, not when bridge contact is made because; if your upper and lower extremities are connected to the floor through a very good stance, then you should already have good defensive position through proper line understanding, why mess it up by running away from bridge contact or going to the outside, all one has too do is step in and jam or wedge your intent, when you break chi sao structure for a lop attack…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

The lop sao is a funny thing, because its really good in giving someone instant gratification of achievement (Hey look what I can do!), a lop sao attack can turn into a bunch of superficial moves if your not careful…

The reason why I don’t use the lop sao as a offensive measure often is; when attacking with a lop sao and too make it a money shot as well, you have to have great timing too pull it off, which is all good; but it’s a lot of work epically for the lazy mind… When having good line theory understood and in action means that your forward energy is working well, so there’s no reason why one should use a lop sao too change a line or whatever, you really don’t need to lop, epically if the lops your doing crosses your hands over each other…

When making a lop; such as the bong lop or lop cycle, the hands crosses over each other for just a moment, if one has good timing one can trap his or her opponent just by punching over the top of their opponents lopping hand or using a bil jee thrush just barely touching their chest with a small but subtle movement, and while using lop sao attacks you’re actually making openings within your structure, because if one has good timing you could actually get hit right in the middle of that movement…

You may said; ok then, what’s the deal with the lop: The lop sao is used too change the line of attack in the Woo W.C system, but we don’t make or force the line too happen when we lop, we change the line when it comes to us (opponents attacks or forward energy), and with good timing you can do that right in the middle of your opponents attack, but while learning the lop sao attacks, we execute it the opposite way (attacking) too gain good understanding or ideal of that particular lop technique…

I was taught the best time to lop is when under attack, not when bridge contact is made because; if your upper and lower extremities are connected to the floor through a very good stance, then you should already have good defensive position through proper line understanding, why mess it up by running away from bridge contact or going to the outside, all one has too do is step in and jam or wedge your intent, when you break chi sao structure for a lop attack…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

What is your approach to Chi Sao as regards the mobility of the stance. The way I was taught to chi sao was to be mobile in my stance. That is by rolling the stance, steping in using the angles and walking through the opponent and chasing him as an opening presented itself. In turn the opponent having taken hits would establish a bridge and continuen the chi sao without stopping.

It is important to note that we were told not to step back no matter what, but instead to absorb the incoming attack by rolling or angling. Stepping back was a big no,no.

Is this a similar approach to what you teach/practice?

[Ali. R]

You obviously know what you’re talking about, and you’re right on point… We don’t step backwards also... Only in training, so one can get the feel of stepping without breaking chi sao contact... One should try to step one time and no more then two when working this chi sao drill... We will take one step back with just one leg; too adsorb the on coming force if we have too, the front leg is there too reminded the back leg too come back home or back to the front line, and we follow what goes but never chase our opponent, when they run let them run… I would like to think that you meant the word chase in the same terms as follow…

Sometime we settle for that one step for absorption, most of the time its more then what we need…
Wow, you’re really on your way, keep up the good training… :D


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

You obviously know what you’re talking about, and you’re right on point… We don’t step backwards also... Only in training, so one can get the feel of stepping without breaking chi sao contact...

We are told not to step back even in combat, as this would meand giving ground to the opponent who can end up steamrolling us. Of course, there are times when one just has to make "a strategic withdrawal":)



One should try to step one time and no more then two when working this chi sao drill...

Sifu never gave us a limit of no more than two steps, but I understand what you are saying,as usuaslly by the second or 3rd step the training partner usually establishes a "new" bridge and flow of the Chi Sao continues.


We will take one step back with just one leg; too adsorb the on coming force

That is exactly what we are taught to do when we are overwhelmed. That is to take one step back, gain control of the central line and continue to "roll".


if we have too[/B], the front leg is there too reminded the back leg too come back home or back to the front line, and we follow what goes but never chase our opponent, when they run let them run…

I believe that I used the wrong term when I said "chase". What I should have said was continue striking contact while following the opponent. Of course, when contact is lost and the opponent is out of range,then the "chase" stops.


Wow, you’re really on your way, keep up the good training… :D

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. Unfortunately for now most of my Wing Chun training is on my own as I have temporarily changed my country of residence. I do however train in an excellent non-Wing Chun school here in london.

Fortunately, I will be seeing my Wing Chun sifu who will be visiting the UK to give a seminar on Siu Lam Wing Chun. I am looking forward to training with him every day while he is here.

There is a good chance that in a few months time I will move back to Brasil and resume my full Wing Chun training.

By the way, what is your lineage of Wing Chun?

[Graychuan]

.

By the way, what is your lineage of Wing Chun?


Hey, mane...We have been updating the website and info on our lineage can be found right HERE (http://www.louisvillewingchun.com/WooFaiChingSystem/Lineage/tabid/78/Default.aspx). Look under Woo Fai Ching System and go to the Lineage link on the pulldown menu or History of ...Woo System.

Thanks for asking.

~Cg~

[HardWork8]

Hey, mane...We have been updating the website and info on our lineage can be found right HERE (http://www.louisvillewingchun.com/WooFaiChingSystem/Lineage/tabid/78/Default.aspx). Look under Woo Fai Ching System and go to the Lineage link on the pulldown menu or History of ...Woo System.

Thanks for asking.

~Cg~

Thank you for the link, I will check it out very soon.:)

[Ali. R]

I like what you’ve done with the site Chris, great work!!! :)


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Here is another question that I’ve gotten from my site.


Any tricks to controlling center in chi sao without attacking from the outside?

There are really no tricks but...

The centerline suff you asked for: While playing Chi Sao think about the vertices of your defensive triangle: in other words spread your chi sao structure a little wider therefore your victors plays off your chest nipples (line up the wrist to your chest nipples) or play off the heart, this way you can have your imaginary vertices of your chi sao structure behind your opponent when stepping and attacking, and your defensive structure will become much stronger…

In other words; play your chi sao structure through him and not at him…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Chi Sao is nothing more then flipping the switches too automatic beat down, there should be nothing too think about, when one is thinking of movements or his next plan he is caught in the past (defensive) and there he will stay…

When things are truly understood, one will free his mind literally dealing with the present (offensive), then from there one can move on to the future (blowing minds)… :D


Ali Rahim.

[HardWork8]

Chi Sao is nothing more then flipping the switches too automatic beat down, there should be nothing too think about, when one is thinking of movements or his next plan he is caught in the past (defensive) and there he will stay…

When things are truly understood, one will free his mind literally dealing with the present (offensive), then from there one can move on to the future (blowing minds)… :D


Ali Rahim.

I believe that this freeing the mind is sometimes referred to as just "being" rather than doing things consciously during combat. It is one of the highest levels of kung fu practice.

[SAAMAG]

Chi Sao is nothing more then flipping the switches too automatic beat down, there should be nothing too think about, when one is thinking of movements or his next plan he is caught in the past (defensive) and there he will stay…

When things are truly understood, one will free his mind literally dealing with the present (offensive), then from there one can move on to the future (blowing minds)… :D


Ali Rahim.

I agree with what you're saying, as far as spontaneous reaction goes in chi sao. Reptitive movements previously trained in chi sao practice help the current student to employ movements in a non-thinking manner. The japanese call the idea of a clear head "mind of no mind". Having a clear mind and just acting without thinking. But this deals with just the technique levels. "Just react"

The strategic and tactical levels which come first should always be evaluated and re-evaluated, even mid fight where necessary. Fighting is a chess game, while on a technique level things should be spontaneous, from a strategic and tactical level you've got to be thinking ahead.

Just my opinion.

[Ali. R]

I believe that this freeing the mind is sometimes referred to as just "being" rather than doing things consciously during combat. It is one of the highest levels of kung fu practice.

This is true, even when one is coming into knowledge the ideal of receiving it must be free as well… Just trust in you and bring this knowledge too life for what it is (as taught to you ), and not for what you want it to be, through deviation (self-gravitation)…

The mind is what builds a warrior and his grace under pressure is what releases it, not his might, for there is always one mightier then you, but true knowledge and understanding (skill) will always stand strong if the mind is not weak, (grace under pressure) and that’s with anything in life…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I agree with what you're saying, as far as spontaneous reaction goes in chi sao. Reptitive movements previously trained in chi sao practice help the current student to employ movements in a non-thinking manner. The japanese call the idea of a clear head "mind of no mind". Having a clear mind and just acting without thinking. But this deals with just the technique levels. "Just react"

The strategic and tactical levels which come first should always be evaluated and re-evaluated, even mid fight where necessary. Fighting is a chess game, while on a technique level things should be spontaneous, from a strategic and tactical level you've got to be thinking ahead.

Just my opinion.

Should be spontaneous… That’s if we let it, and keep self out of the way (deviation and physical intent)… Once it’s understood , and that’s if we understand it and will just let it be, while keeping your mind free and clear...


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Here is a question that someone asked me on my site…




First of all, you must understand the concept behind what you’re trying too accomplish… Well, in the case of chi sao you should have had that understood in the SLT system (don chi sao)…

If you’re having trouble staying soft when playing chi sao, I suggest that you really begin to explore the don chi sao within your wing chun structure, if the mechanics of the don chi sao never promotes redirection through complete softness and sensitivity, then I suggest try another structure until you can find a way too naturalize or redirected energy through complete softness and sensitivity…

The main thing is too make sure that the mind is not over worked, meaning that your overall structure dealing with forward sensitivity must stay connected to the your stance, and your upper and lower extremities must stay connected to the floor through your stance…

If there’s no strong connection as I mention just above, then the mind will become over worked and the hands will become tense or tight, then one will begin too fall off the track or the road that guides his structure directly to the right offensive and defensive line that needs to be occupied when under pressure, and if one just cant find it, then its a structure problem…

Your chi sao structure must fit and work within your stance, just as the gears works within a watch, if the gears do not fit correctly within the watch, then one will never begin to understand what time it is… The concept of understanding true wing chun attacks is through timing and having a strong connection to the floor, by connecting the upper and lower extremities through you stance, it will help promote good softness and forward sensitivity; hence, very good defensive structure with very little thought pattern…

The main key as far as the Woo Fai Ching system dealing with chi sao, is the fook sao… If one cannot master the understanding or ideal dealing with the fook sao, then he or she will always have trouble dealing with double line sensitivity, because in the start of you chi sao studies the fook sao is always misunderstood… Why? Because the fook sao do nothing but ride or should cling to structure, and the other side or arm cycles from tan to bong; in other words that side have something too do, in which helps keeps the mind pre-occupied while almost losing the ideal or mechanics dealing with the fook sao… Just master of try to understand the mechanics of the fook sao through total softness and forward sensitivity, then I’m sure you’ll find what you’re looking for…

The more one can control his fook sao through good forward sensitivity and line control, the softer and stronger his overall chi sao structure will become…


Ali Rahim.


I find that knowing how the YI can be easily unsettled and continuity of awareness breaks down at certain points in the Chi Sao exercise makes me aware of how the vision and eyes can be fooled when dealing with such 'small intervals in time' and trying to look at fighting movements/energies. (funny how in high level martial arts discussion we speak of intervals and energies and such....kinda the same as when physicists and quantum mathematicians speak of intervals and time when dealing with the small things...). But this being what it is what are your thoughts on this, Sifu Rahim...
It is a known fact that the hand is quicker than the eye. The hand can move faster than the eye can track. Just try to track a fastball from a pro or try to catch the slight of hand from a master Mage. This is also true in a fight. 'Its always the one that you dont see that gets you'. Kinda reminds me of the Kuen Kuit...'Good Wing Chun is felt but not seen.' Anyways, Chi Sao, being a sensitivity excersize, developes a way to track your opponents intentions with your own hands(Sao) so that you dont fall behind.
This is why it is so important to get proper bridge contact immediately or to attack thier attack with a bridging movement to occupy space (Bil Gee). After that we maintain that range with moving stances and bridging(Chum Kil) in order to stay in the proper followthrough range. At this point we use the basic hand postures (SLT) to end the fight.
Wing Chun as a training system teaches us from the inside out(SLT,CK,BG) but in the event of a fight we move outside in as I described earlier. This way...the closer we get to an opponent the more comfortable we should become.
Chi Sao is the way we bring it all together. When an attack is engaged, natural reaction always gets our hands up and we make contact with something. If that 'shape' or 'energy' at that moment triggers the muscle memory of a trained and powerful technique and our followthrough is supported by the proper structure, then the art comes alive and there is no need to be caught up in the eyes.
There is a Kuen Kuit that says something like ' Attack the emptiness '. This is not an emptiness in vision...its an emptiness in sensitivity and asking energy. How much asking energy do we need to activate Jing Lik and not overwork the mind(YI)? Well I remember some old masters of the Supreme Ultimate Fist saying something about 2 ounces of force. Once our Chi Sao senses a differential of 2 ounces either way our structure should adjust accordingly to neautralize, take over lines, support double arm control, etc. After all....WCK has a Taoist root does it not?

If it takes only 2 ounces of force....then why worry about using muscle since its the muscles that tense up and slow us down when the mind is stressed?

[Ali. R]

The two ounces of force as you talked about only comes from a strong understanding of integrity structure… It’s the happy medium between structure and connection…

Meaning when contact is made there will be emptiness between forward vector forces without losing overall structure, yours and your opponent’s…

Your job is too feel or fill in that emptiness just as one does when playing with a sliding thumb puzzle, just with so very little energy and with strong structure awareness and body unity, operating within a very good strong stance…

Using up to two ounces of force mentally, sometimes even less is more then enough, in which can actually stop an all out attack…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

The two ounces of force as you talked about only comes from a strong understanding of integrity structure… It’s the happy medium between structure and connection…

Ali Rahim.

As you are well versed in the CMA (Chinese Martial Arts) I would like your opinion on this....
Would this 'happy medium' be anything at all like the 'silk reeling' energy of T'ai Ch'i Ch'uan Pushing/Sensing Hands? I was taught from my TCC Sifu years ago that the Silk Reeling was that soft and fragile 'continuity of technique or flow' that is the meduim of sensitivity itself. It was so fragile(like reeling a single strand of raw silk) that any disturbance or unsettling of the YI would break the flow just as any extra force too fast or tension would snap the strand of silk.

I know I could be stretching it a bit here but I seem to see a lot of similar concepts when TRUE KNOWLEDGE is at the table. Especially when it deals with CMA. And I jump at any opportunity to clear up my own understanding of things.

[Ali. R]

He has taught you very well, as I have seen from your many tai chi students and skills… What you just explained and identify silk reeling in a metaphysical standpoint, wonderful for chi development and could also be applied in a martial standpoint …

When working in a martial standpoint far as that very same concept (silk reeling), the body must stay very relaxed and work almost like a whip, but when contact is made there will be a emptiness within thought pattern or offensive and defensive structures, you must swallow forward vector force with forward sensitivity, just as one is silk reeling in a metaphysical standpoint…

When using this concept (silk reeling in wing chun), you must execute within a one-inch or half-inch radius far as nullifying his intentions (defensively, with a two ounces jam), while welcoming and swallowing his forward vector force with consecutive integrity structure…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Thank you for this feedback. I have often wondered about the subtleties of Chi Sao like this and after getting this information I can now see why Blindfolded Chi-Sao is not that big of a deal. If one understands the concept and the art can come to life then its easy to see how being Blindfolded is just a natural progression in sensitivity. I think this is what I was trying to get at with 'not being caught up in the eyes.'

If there is a true understanding of Chi Sao then the eyes are not the priority anyways since we know they will fall behind. I have seen some demos of Blindfolded Chi Sao in the Tube and although I am not knocking the skills of the peeps involved, I dont get my panties wet about it because it seems to me that if they learned correctly they should be able to do this anyways.

Also I know you have it is a part of our training curriculum. I find it intersting that its a part of our regular curriculum and is available to all students who go through your curriculum properly but it seems like a show-stopper or an ace up the sleeve for peeps who want to put on shows.

OOOOPS! I almost forgot...WE are the ones who get accused of putting on shows. :rolleyes:

[Ali. R]

Thank you for this feedback. I have often wondered about the subtleties of Chi Sao like this and after getting this information I can now see why Blindfolded Chi-Sao is not that big of a deal. If one understands the concept and the art can come to life then its easy to see how being Blindfolded is just a natural progression in sensitivity. I think this is what I was trying to get at with 'not being caught up in the eyes.'

If there is a true understanding of Chi Sao then the eyes are not the priority anyways since we know they will fall behind. I have seen some demos of Blindfolded Chi Sao in the Tube and although I am not knocking the skills of the peeps involved, I dont get my panties wet about it because it seems to me that if they learned correctly they should be able to do this anyways.

Also I know you have it is a part of our training curriculum. I find it intersting that its a part of our regular curriculum and is available to all students who go through your curriculum properly but it seems like a show-stopper or an ace up the sleeve for peeps who want to put on shows.

OOOOPS! I almost forgot...WE are the ones who get accused of putting on shows. :rolleyes:


Good post Chris, and how very true that statement is…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

Chi-Sao (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPNQOuVFGEk) with Sifus Francios and Jah'Ki.

[Ali. R]

Chi-Sao (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPNQOuVFGEk) with Sifus Francios and Jah'Ki.

Its always nice to see people that I’ve taught for over ten years or so workout, and truly have development in what they’re doing, hats off to you gentlemen...:D

Cheers,


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

what is the idea they are trying to develop doing that ?

[Ali. R]

I just don’t have time right now, and the only point that I care about is that they know... ;)

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[bennyvt]

blind folded chi sao works becvause of constant forward pressure towards your opponents centre. I thought it was in everyones ciricullum. Yes without relaxation all movements would be slow, but without force or muscular strength the hands would not move or resist anything. VT is about being in the centre, not using too much force or not using no force. I remember I was teaching a guy the tan sao and punch as a beginner drill, he was a high level in tai chi and the first time I swung at him he was that relaxed that the punch went straight throught the block and smacked him, I said "what happened why didnt you block it", he said "you said relax" I replied "yeh but not so much thsat you stop breathing, you need enough force to nullify the oncoming force". I found this when I went to hong kong with certain people. They were that relaxed that your hands went straight through and hit. Any extreme is bad in VT either too much force or not enough. By using VT princibles we are able to nulify much greater force by using structure and positioning but its like catching a ball and catching a 20 kilo dumbell, you relax with the ball and throw it straight back, but you have to resist the dumbell to stop it from going through your hands and hitting you.

[Ali. R]

Chi Sao Seminar ‘Louisville 08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1zCRHB6AtM

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

There’s no real technique in chi sao just structure; high and low fook, tan and bong (defensively), and pak, lop sao are known offensive movements but you can use defensive and offensive movements to attack with, but let's just keep it even more simple then that…

It’s about how well those structures and just those structures (high and low fook, tan and bong) alone can fit within your stance, and while using them, will they all stay connected to the floor?

This way techniques will come out all on its own, and the flow of what you’re doing will be based on how well you understand the forms, your stance,and your chi sao structure … When you make up techniques within your chi sao structure you’re putting the cart ahead of the horse…

First things first (Chi/energy—Sao/Block) and that’s learning how to stop the strike when it counts… Anyone can throw one, but can you stop one when one is thrown at you?


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

If the fingers or hands become tight, then the arm will become tight, and if the arms become tight, then their bodies will become tight, when the body is tight then the lungs will become tight… And when all that happens, then the throat will become dry… Hence instant fatigue…

You must use structure and structure alone not the hands… When catching a ball the fingers will spread and automatically tension will set in the arms…

Open your hand and turn your palm towards you, then spread your fingers out, then turn them away while looking at the back of your hand, the tension that you see and feel is the energy that you do not want to have in your look sao/phoon sao structure… Never use the hands first when redirecting energy from the look sao structure…

Use structure to beat structure, use the hands only when one breaks or moves away from the look sao cycle to strike…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I think just about everyone here would agree; when they first heard of wing chun they heard of things like; “it’s a fighting art in which uses sensitively and it teaches you to stay soft”, and so and so forth…

When you do wing chun or while playing chi sao, do you promote and perpetuate softness and sensitively, just like everyone talks about? Do you have rigidness, tension in the hands and lost of balance when playing chi sao? If so, then you’re going against everything that really brought you to the art (softness and sensitively)…

Remember there are those who have trained for years, and who are bitter as hell just because of this very subject (chi sao), and when they see people that can when they cant, they will do and say strange things to undermine that subject as a whole, just because they themselves cannot execute something that would truly enhance their wing chun ability…

They simply will not let go and trust in structure to grain softness and sensitively, and most will never get it because their stance will never promote such ideals…


Ali Rahim.

[couch]

I think just about everyone here would agree; when they first heard of wing chun they heard of things like; “it’s a fighting art in which uses sensitively and it teaches you to stay soft”, and so and so forth…

When you do wing chun or while playing chi sao, do you promote and perpetuate softness and sensitively, just like everyone talks about? Do you have rigidness, tension in the hands and lost of balance when playing chi sao? If so, then you’re going against everything that really brought you to the art (softness and sensitively)…
Ali Rahim.

What brought me to the art was the idea that a self-defense situation could be diffused very quickly easily. The same engine for everything (elbow) enables me to shut my thinking brain off and just drive forward.

My opinion of all this "sensitivity training" is that most of it is going to go out the window when the sh!t hits the fan. When I get an adrenaline dump and tunnel vision, it's going to be little more mash-mash than sensitivity.

So while the sensitivity training can provide a little more of an advantage, I think it's more important that I concentrate on hitting and making my fist act like the ball on the end of a chain. When it comes to Chi Sau, I'm really leaning more into the idea that the drill has been made into a soft-patty-cake mess. I'm looking for ways to eliminate the extraneous movements and wet- spaghetti-like movements.

My opinion on the whole matter,
Kenton

[Ali. R]

I like your post, because I truly can relate to it, I had the same problem until I really started to focus on structure…

That’s because one gives up on structure first when under pressure… Sensitivity is only lost when ones structure is not consistent, trading in the ideal of structure with ones own ideals dealing with might and physical force, because all was lost in the beginning stages of pressure (Grace and understanding), usually the stance will go first…

That’s why one should work on their stance first, then work on their chi sao structure (defensively)… The more one thinks of hitting, the more one forgets about defense, then the more punches will be traded with one another, and you will get hit a lot…

Maybe it’s just me; I’ll rather simultaneously strike and block or just pull someone's strike right out of the air, knowing in my mind that I will develop the understanding of truly stopping someone’s strike ,and not just trading punches…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[couch]

I like your post, because I truly can relate to it, I had the same problem until I really started to focus on structure…

That’s because one gives up on structure first when under pressure… Sensitivity is only lost when ones structure is not consistence, trading in the ideal of structure with ones own ideals dealing of might and physical force, because all was lost in the beginning stages of pressure (Grace and understanding) usually the stance will go first…

That’s why one should work on their stance first, then work on their chi sao structure (defensively)… The more one thinks of hitting, the more one forgets about defense, then the more punches will be traded with one another, and you will get hit a lot…

Maybe it’s just me; I’ll rather simultaneously strike and block or just pull someone's strike right out of the air, knowing in my mind that I will develop the understanding of truly stopping someone’s strike ,and not just trading punches…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

I agree that trading punches is not a good idea.

I also agree with the idea of working the stance more than anything. Well, almost more than anything (facing and elbow).

I see a lot of people almost standing up in their YJKYM. Lazy monkeys aren't getting low enough!

No horse = No kung-fu! :)

[Ali. R]

I heard that… And mostly those that have trained with good sifus and masters still don’t have it (because their stance want allow it), it usually takes up to ten years to develop such energies correctly (far as chi sao)…

And let’s face it; you need more then just 7 or 6 years of this type of training (wing chun) because half of those years are just fundamental understandings, but you have some that are teaching these method that are with well known sufus, and their teachers allowing this and letting this to continue to happen (need the money huh)…

If one has not truly mastered at least the first three forms, and have at least 9 to 10 years of training, it would be hard to take their word on what chi sao should really be like, unless they spent a lot of time with an experience teacher daily, and not just becoming a seminar baby…

A see yah, when I see yah, or see yah when I can type of student… When one teaches chi sao to early in there wing chun careers you will know it, because they well get hit a lot by their own students while in training, literally turning themselves and their students into punching bags…

My students only hit me when I let them, and many of them are members here on this forum and would vouch for it… When I say the door is now shut, they cannot hit me at all and I never have to use any offense, I’ll just ‘D’ up until they slow down, then I’ll snatch them right out the frame…

I’m not saying this because I think that I’m the man or something like that… I just know what I know, and learned it from someone that does also…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

I would rather learn to stop strikes other than becoming a punching bag…;)


Ali Rahim.