Emin Seminar

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB3eW0hfy0U&feature=related

You can find the other clips on the side bar on youtube, he even has a 10 min clip on ground work :eek:

Emin...his massive ego aside, he can put on a good show.

[SAAMAG]

Watching at school...no sound. Looks like the same ol' stuff about the centerline theory for the first ones. I skipped to the last couple of them; and there's Interesting thoughts on ground fighting and how the would-be opponent would react. It looks pretty much like Emin is using what works best for HIM and his natural attributes.

The only thing I don't like, is that it seems as if (and again, I can't hear the sound) he's promoting a catch-all technique for everything. The only thing is, look at his body structure and the techniques he's using. They may work well for him, against THAT guy, but what would happen when a guy that's 5'4" and has a short 50" reach tries to use the catch all method against a 6'4" 260lb'er. The end results probably wouldn't be the same.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Watching at school...no sound. Looks like the same ol' stuff about the centerline theory for the first ones. I skipped to the last couple of them; and there's Interesting thoughts on ground fighting and how the would-be opponent would react. It looks pretty much like Emin is using what works best for HIM and his natural attributes.

The only thing I don't like, is that it seems as if (and again, I can't hear the sound) he's promoting a catch-all technique for everything. The only thing is, look at his body structure and the techniques he's using. They may work well for him, against THAT guy, but what would happen when a guy that's 5'4" and has a short 50" reach tries to use the catch all method against a 6'4" 260lb'er. The end results probably wouldn't be the same.

There is an interesting clip in the DBMA website for members that shows the reality of size even in a stick fighting environment, two words: Bulled Over.

[HardWork8]

Does anyone know in which country this seminar was held?

[SAAMAG]

I would venture to say America.

[sihing]

Does anyone know in which country this seminar was held?

I downloaded the whole series a few years ago, the footage is not really from a Emin seminar, it was at a WT function in the UK, I think it was back in 99' or somewhere around then. A whole bunch of the top guys in the WT world were there, including LT and Keith K, they all demo'd something to the people that were present.

James

[tigerclaw777]

I thought I saw Keith Kernspecht sitting on a chair on the right.
Yeah it was a good seminar. Emin is a dangerous fighter. What bugs me is why do most of his students suck so much? I met a guy who had over a decade under him and he couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag, a pityful pathetic example of martial arts. I think it's the teaching by seminar once a year method. If you actually studied in a school under Emin's close supervision he might be able to impart his skills.
I also wondered how much of his ability is due to his tremendous physique and how much is actually WT. Would this stuff work for an 100 pound woman or small man against a 200 pound enraged attacker, the way it is advertised in WT?

[HardWork8]

I downloaded the whole series a few years ago, the footage is not really from a Emin seminar, it was at a WT function in the UK, I think it was back in 99' or somewhere around then. A whole bunch of the top guys in the WT world were there, including LT and Keith K, they all demo'd something to the people that were present.

James

Thanks James. I didn't even realise that this event happened before Emin parted ways with Leung Ting.
I have never ever kept a close eye on the WT people. However, the first 3 parts of the videos were quiet interesting. I'll be watching the rest later on today.:)

[HardWork8]

I also wondered how much of his ability is due to his tremendous physique and how much is actually WT. Would this stuff work for an 100 pound woman or small man against a 200 pound enraged attacker, the way it is advertised in WT?

A tremendous physique will always play a part, but from a kung fu point of view it is also about timing and strategy. Having said that, one can never overstate the importance of (striking) power training - and I am not talking about heavy weightlifting - so that when one does strike the 200 pound attacker, he doesn't just stand there and smile at him.:D

Kung Fu power comes through resistance exercises as opposed to heavy weight lifting/pumping; the development of body unity; Iron Palm and Chi Kung (that contributes to the "relaxed power").

So, no matter how agile and knowledgable one is if he lacks enough striking power, then he will most likely lose against a stronger adversary who can take the hits and return fire.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kung Fu power comes through resistance exercises as opposed to heavy weight lifting/pumping; the development of body unity; Iron Palm and Chi Kung (that contributes to the "relaxed power").

Just so that you know, heavy weight lifting and pumping weights are NOT the same thing.
Matter of fact, heavy weight lifting doesn't give you a pump at all, and by heavy I mean what is referred to as heavy - 90% max and above.

[HardWork8]

Just so that you know, heavy weight lifting and pumping weights are NOT the same thing.
Matter of fact, heavy weight lifting doesn't give you a pump at all, and by heavy I mean what is referred to as heavy - 90% max and above.

Then make that weight lifting and/or pumping.:D

[Mr Punch]

Kung Fu power comes through resistance exercises as opposed to heavy weight lifting/pumping; the development of body unity...While I agree with the rest of your post, about timing, strategy, practising punches etc, just thought I'd chime in to tell you: heavy weight lifting is resistance training.

Plus, deadlifting and squatting say, even only one-and-a-half times your bodyweight a helluva lot for development of body unity. As for body unity under pressure and against resistance, deading and squatting for strength will do way more for you than any number of air punches, or pulled punches in chi sao.

After I started weights, my wing chun became a lot better. I was even less inclined to force techniques, to meet force with force, because I didn't need to.

To sum up:

Every physical human activity is easier if you lift.

As for Boztepe's ability, I can't comment. It would be interesting to cross hands with him, as with so many other people.

[CFT]

After I started weights, my wing chun became a lot better. I was even less inclined to force techniques, to meet force with force, because I didn't need to.Very interested in this. Can you describe a bit more about the qualitative differences in your expression of the techniques?

Best wishes,
Chee.

[HardWork8]

While I agree with the rest of your post, about timing, strategy, practising punches etc, just thought I'd chime in to tell you: heavy weight lifting is resistance training.

By the same token, I can say that lifting the piano is resistance training. Maybe I should clarify and say the resistance training should minimalize muscle mass. Heavy muscle mass goes against many of the internal principles of Wing Chun and kung fu in general.


Plus, deadlifting and squatting say, even only one-and-a-half times your bodyweight a helluva lot for development of body unity. As for body unity under pressure and against resistance, deading and squatting for strength will do way more for you than any number of air punches, or pulled punches in chi sao.

The object is to develop body unity without isolating the muscles too much and without creating a more than necessary muscle mass. I suppose that your approach to Wing Chun is more of an external approach.

You can exercise your resistance by variations of chin-ups that would serve the purposes of Wing Chun better than Weight training - internally speaking that is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The object is to develop body unity without isolating the muscles too much and without creating a more than necessary muscle mass. I suppose that your approach to Wing Chun is more of an external approach.

You can exercise your resistance by variations of chin-ups that would serve the purposes of Wing Chun better than Weight training - internally speaking that is.

Ok then.
Since you were replying to a post that mentioned deadlifting and squatting I think you should know that they are the furthest things from "isolating mucles" that one person can do, they are compound exercises that work the WHOLE body and its many path ways, pretty much every strength trainer know this.
ST does NOT build muscle mass UNLESS you eat in a way that makes gaining mass your goal.
Again, something that any Strength Trainer knows.
As for chins, unless you are only doing low reps of chins because you are too "weak" to do more or perhaps have added weight because you are too strong, you would typically be doing reps in the 10+ range, ie: pumping your muscles, the very thing you said you are against.

You don't seem to know very much about strength training.

[HardWork8]

Ok then.
Since you were replying too a post that mentioned deadlifting and squatting I think you should know that they are the furthest things from "isolating mucles" that one person can do, they are compound exercises that work the WHOLE body and its many path ways, pretty much every strength trainer know this.

The fact is that even that approach is to "external" for Wing Chun, or at least the lineage that I practice. We are ever supposed to limit the number of push ups or even eliminate them in favor of chin ups.

There are also other exercises such as "animal walking", eg. tiger, lizard etc.



ST does NOT build muscle mass UNLESS you eat in a way that makes gaining mass your goal.

Unfortunately for a lot of MA people gaining muscle mass is the goal, "it looks good" you know.


As for chins, unless you are only doing low reps of chins because you are too "weak" to do more or perhaps have added weight because you are too strong, you would typically be doing reps in the 10+ range, ie: pumping your muscles, the very thing you said you are against.

That is interesting, because after years of doing this I do not have large or "pumped" muscles. Neither does sifu.

So, it is back to the drawing board for you.

Or maybe it is the way that you do your chin ups, who knows.


You don't seem to know very much about strength training.

You seem to know very little about Wing Chun, but hey you seem to be in good company.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The fact is that even that approach is to "external" for Wing Chun, or at least the lineage that I practice. We are ever supposed to limit the number of push ups or even eliminate them in favor of chin ups.

There are also other exercises such as "animal walking", eg. tiger, lizard etc.




Unfortunately for a lot of MA people gaining muscle mass is the goal, "it looks good" you know.



That is interesting, because after years of doing this I do not have large or "pumped" muscles. Neither does sifu.

So, it is back to the drawing board for you.

Or maybe it is the way that you do your chin ups, who knows.



You seem to know very little about Wing Chun, but hey you seem to be in good company.

*shakes head*
I don't know what is worse, the fact that you don't know, or the fact that you don't know that you don't know, or the fact that you THINK you know.
Either way, not gonna waste my time.

[HardWork8]

*shakes head*
I don't know what is worse, the fact that you don't know, or the fact that you don't know that you don't know, or the fact that you THINK you know.
Either way, not gonna waste my time.

I have just explained the approach taken in the WC school in which I practice. If you can't address the point that I made about not having large of pumped up muscles inspite of training the chin ups for years then don't. Obviously, there are things that you know nothing about, not only as regards kung fu but also regarding strengh/resistance training AS RELATED TO KUNG FU.

I believe that you are the one wasting my time. Obvioulsly you don't practice Wing Chun in a serious way. It may be part of a mish mash of martial arts that you practice, but then again, you are in good company.

[AndrewS]

I have just explained the approach taken in the WC school in which I practice. If you can't address the point that I made about not having large of pumped up muscles inspite of training the chin ups for years then don't. Obviously, there are things that you know nothing about, not only as regards kung fu but also regarding strengh/resistance training AS RELATED TO KUNG FU.

So there's physiology for the rest of the world and kung fu physiology?

You adapted to an exercise; it no longer provided sufficent stimulus to induce a compensatory response; hence you did not grow.

What training protocol do you use with chin ups- sets, reps, load? How has that been varied?

TC writes:

I thought I saw Keith Kernspecht sitting on a chair on the right.
Yeah it was a good seminar. Emin is a dangerous fighter. What bugs me is why do most of his students suck so much? I met a guy who had over a decade under him and he couldn't punch his way out of a paper bag, a pityful pathetic example of martial arts. I think it's the teaching by seminar once a year method. If you actually studied in a school under Emin's close supervision he might be able to impart his skills.
I also wondered how much of his ability is due to his tremendous physique and how much is actually WT. Would this stuff work for an 100 pound woman or small man against a 200 pound enraged attacker, the way it is advertised in WT?

Some people s*ck in every line. PM me with who you caught up with, I'm curious. Someone who hits a seminar every now and again may develop skill or may not- it depend on them. Someone who trains with sifu, will be forced to get skills. I would be quite surprised if it's someone who has done significant amounts of one on one time with sifu, as all of the people who I've encountered who have trained privately with him are quite formidable including several smaller <5'6" practitioners who credit him with teaching them to play the small man's game effectively.


Andrew

[HardWork8]

Dude, what are you doing here in the *shudder* wing chun section.

Yes, specially when you don't practice Wing Chun.:rolleyes:


there is absolutely no reasoning with "these people".

:p

You are right, how can he discuss or "reason" with Wing Chun people, when he does not practice Wing Chun nor has any understanding of what Traditional Kung Fu practice entails?

[HardWork8]

So there's physiology for the rest of the world and kung fu physiology?

May be it is all in the way the exercises are carried out. I stated a fact. Nor I or my sifu have big bulging muscles.


You adapted to an exercise; it no longer provided sufficent stimulus to induce a compensatory response; hence you did not grow.

I did grow all right. It provided strengh and definition without the unnecessary muscle mass.


What training protocol do you use with chin ups- sets, reps, load? How has that been varied?

Put simply, I practice it in 3 sets of around ten+ (the exact number depends on my condition on that day which also depends on what I have been doing training wise).

There is enough room to hang straight, without touching the ground, then lifting the body while everything is kept straight. Breathing is relaxed, without any strong exhalation. And then back again with the body hanging down completely and relaxed. Then lift again.

[Toby]

You can exercise your resistance by variations of chin-ups that would serve the purposes of Wing Chun better than Weight training - internally speaking that is.Chin ups help me learn internal wing chun? Cool! But hang on, what if I do weighted chin ups - does the weight contradict the internal training of the chin ups? :confused:

[SAAMAG]

I did grow all right. It provided strengh and definition without the unnecessary muscle mass.
Strength training is typically done with 4-6 reps using heavy weight and getting to what's called a forced rep. Definition and muscular endurance is done through higher reps (which inherently means lighter weights) and does not build strength.



Put simply, I practice it in 3 sets of around ten+ (the exact number depends on my condition on that day which also depends on what I have been doing training wise).
If you're doing between 6-12, than you're doing hypertrophy...mass building. But since the weight isn't varying to accomodate tearing of the muscle enough to build it up stronger, as Andrew stated, your body has adapted.



There is enough room to hang straight, without touching the ground, then lifting the body while everything is kept straight. Breathing is relaxed, without any strong exhalation. And then back again with the body hanging down completely and relaxed. Then lift again.
You need to work on your form bud. You are not supposed to relax at all during your set...but rather keep constant tension. In other words don't go down enough to relax. Also, your legs are supposed to be angled out in front of you for pull ups.

[HardWork8]

Chin ups help me learn internal wing chun?

Not really, but it does not contradict the principles of the internals by contributing to increasing the muscle mass unecessarilly.


Cool!

Yes, I know.


But hang on,

Yes, that is what one does generally during chin-ups.:)


what if I do weighted chin ups - does the weight contradict the internal training of the chin ups? :confused:


If you can do manage to do weighed chin-ups without creating excessive muscle mass then fine, but please read carefully my previous post on how I do them.

And again, chin-ups are not internal training, but are a way of building strengh and resistance without contradicting the principles of internal training.

[Toby]

You're funny. So much misinformation from one poster. I've argued with the likes of you before only to realise I'm wasting my breath so I'm not going to do it again. Hopefully one day you'll realise how little you actually know about internal practice _and_ strength training. Good luck, you're going to need it (you've got a lot to unlearn first). FWIW, everyone else in the thread gets it.

[HardWork8]

Strength training is typically done with 4-6 reps using heavy weight and getting to what's called a forced rep. Definition and muscular endurance is done through higher reps (which inherently means lighter weights) and does not build strength.

That is interesting, because I am stronger now than I was before doing the chin-ups.


If you're doing between 6-12, than you're doing hypertrophy...mass building. But since the weight isn't varying to accomodate tearing of the muscle enough to build it up stronger, as Andrew stated, your body has adapted.

Meaning, that I have good muscle definition and relatively more strengh without excessive muscle mass, as was the intention of doing this exercise in the first place. Thank You.



You need to work on your form bud.

You need to work on your kung fu understanding "bud"!


You are not supposed to relax at all during your set...but rather keep constant tension.

Just enough tension is kept so that the practitioner doesn't fall off. Perhaps this variation in training explains the difference in muscle mass between what I do and what you do?

I will also add that maintaining unnecessary tension goes against internal training principles, which SHOULD be taken into consideration when one claims that he trains kung fu.


In other words don't go down enough to relax.

Let's do it this way. You follow your own advice and I will follow the advice of my sifu who is a 7th level chief instructor, who actually teaches Traditional Wing Chun for a living.


Also, your legs are supposed to be angled out in front of you for pull ups.

What, as in always? Or just as a variation. If it is the latter, then that is valid depending on what you are trying to get out of the exercise.

[HardWork8]

So much misinformation from one poster.

Can you justify that statement please. You have made an accusation so justify it.



I've argued with the likes of you before only to realise I'm wasting my breath so I'm not going to do it again.

I was not arguing with you. I honestly trying to explain what I was taught and how I do a certain type of exercise.


Hopefully one day you'll realise how little you actually know about internal practice _and_ strength training.

I used my own training and their results as reference. If you pay attention to what I wrote previously then you will see that what I was taught to do regarding the said exercises uses a different methodology to the that of some others and presumably you.

That makes it wrong, because it is different to what you do? The fact is that I don't have big bulging muscles.


Good luck, you're going to need it (you've got a lot to unlearn first). FWIW, everyone else in the thread gets it.

I am going to let that last ignorant comment go. I have been polite and civil to you and would like to know your understanding of internal training. It may be different to mine,but valid nevertheless. The ball is in your court.

[SAAMAG]

That is interesting, because I am stronger now than I was before doing the chin-ups. Are you? How do you figure? Is it because you can do more pullups with less effort?



Meaning, that I have good muscle definition and relatively more strengh without excessive muscle mass, as was the intention of doing this exercise in the first place. Thank You.
No, it means that your body has adapted to your body weight and you no longer will build muscle, only increase muscular endurance depending on how many reps you're doing. Muscle definition for most people won't even be a topic until their diet is right and they have a low enough fat percentage / water weight amt to even "see" the muscles.

Just trying to edumacate you my friend. These are standard things every body builder knows...the rep/wt will determine (amongst the more major component: your diet) how you will build muscle. Again, strength training is 4-6 reps, hypertrophy is 6-12 reps, anything over that is generally muscle endurance.



You need to work on your kung fu understanding "bud"!

I've forgotten more than you've learned. You think that because people crosstrain that they don't know about gung fu? Because if they did they would never have left, right? Well, when you reach an epiphany about real fighting, you'll understand why people that practice gung fu also choose to practice other systems. That and I simply like to learn as much as possible....because I like the process. But if you'd like, talk to some of the locals, there are a couple people on this board from SA. The ones that have met me can attest to my "gung fu" skill.



Just enough tension is kept so that the practitioner doesn't fall off. Perhaps this variation in training explains the difference in muscle mass between what I do and what you do? You mean what you do and what every other knowledgeable person in the gym does?



I will also add that maintaining unnecessary tension goes against internal training principles, which SHOULD be taken into consideration when one claims that he trains kung fu. Than why do it at all? Resistance training apparently blocks chi, so when you're doing those pull ups, aren't you blocking the chi with your back muscles?



Let's do it this way. You follow your own advice and I will follow the advice of my sifu who is a 7th level chief instructor, who actually teaches Traditional Wing Chun for a living.
There's levels in gung fu now? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Now I know you are learning the REAL gung fu. This guy isn't friends with the Uber goober great grandmaster of the 15th degree Leung Ting is he?



What, as in always? Or just as a variation. If it is the latter, then that is valid depending on what you are trying to get out of the exercise.
You really are supposed to angle forward a bit so that you hit the right muscle groups. Think of it kinda like the lat pull down when you lean back. You're hitting the muscles at a certain angle to build the right groups. You can do them straight up and down to be sure, but it's generally not done that way. Every excercise has a correct form...and bodybuilders / fitness minded individuals tend to follow them. Most of it is for efficiency and safety. You're just doing chin ups or pull ups...so do it however you want to do it. Just trying to give you some advice.

[HardWork8]

Are you? How do you figure? Is it because you can do more pullups with less effort?

Yes, I can do more pull ups with less effort; and I can push harder and punch harder. I am stronger than before. i know that other exercise play their part as well, so refrain from enlightening me on this point.

However, I can't lift a car, but then my name isn't Vankuen.:rolleyes:


No, it means that your body has adapted to your body weight and you no longer will build muscle, only increase muscular endurance

Which is one of the goals of doing resistance exercises. In this case with minimal iincrease in muscle mass.


depending on how many reps you're doing. Muscle definition for most people won't even be a topic until their diet is right and they have a low enough fat percentage / water weight amt to even "see" the muscles.

I was referring to MY OWN muscle definition and not to other people's and their diets.


Just trying to edumacate you my friend.

Well, I am still waiting.


These are standard things every body builder knows

It seems that unlike you, I am not a body builder. I practice traditional kung fu and hence follow the traditionaly kung fu methodology that is followed by my particular school.


I've forgotten more than you've learned.

Well in that case try to concentrate on your memory loss problem and not on teaching me how to train my traditional kung fu, since you don't seem to have a point of reference on the subject.


You think that because people crosstrain that they don't know about gung fu?

That depends on how many arts they cross train in and wether any of those arts are "relevant" to kung fu, not forgetting the time span required to understand and apply any SINGLE kung fu system.

Having said that, it is a personal choice and people can do what they want, it is just when you dillute your kung fu beyond a certain level then you cannot call it kung fu. It just becomes MMA or a glorified form of kick boxing.


Well, when you reach an epiphany about real fighting, you'll understand why people that practice gung fu also choose to practice other systems.

Surely you mean, other kung fu systems?;)


That and I simply like to learn as much as possible....

Me too.:)


because I like the process.

Me too.:)


But if you'd like, talk to some of the locals, there are a couple people on this board from SA. The ones that have met me can attest to my "gung fu" skill.

I would not know how much credibility to put on their opinion as I don't have any knowledge of their kung fu background as a result I don't know if they can distinguish between "gung fu skill" and Kickboxing skills/general fighting skills.


You mean what you do and what every other knowledgeable person in the gym does?

The "knowledgable" person to whom my original post was directed to, did not seem to know this apparently common fact.


Than why do it at all? Resistance training apparently blocks chi, so when you're doing those pull ups, aren't you blocking the chi with your back muscles?

Ignorance of the internals again I see. It is muscle mass that blocks the movement of chi.

Whatever exercise that you do will create some kind of muscle tension. The type of resistance exercises that I described do not contradict the internal principles as much as others that may create unnecessary muscle mass.



There's levels in gung fu now?

Of course there are. Just like there are in other arts such as karate and Kickboxing, I assume.



BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Your post was kinda ok until this point when you suddenly lost it.:confused:



Now I know you are learning the REAL gung fu.

Don't flatter yourself. Unfortunately you are not even at the level of recognizing real kung fu, but who knows maybe with the help of your bodybuilding and kickboxing friends you'll get there one day.;)



This guy isn't friends with the Uber goober great grandmaster of the 15th degree Leung Ting is he?

I wouldn't know, is "Uber goober" a kick boxer like you?



You really are supposed to angle forward a bit so that you hit the right muscle groups. Think of it kinda like the lat pull down when you lean back. You're hitting the muscles at a certain angle to build the right groups. You can do them straight up and down to be sure, but it's generally not done that way. Every excercise has a correct form...and bodybuilders / fitness minded individuals tend to follow them. Most of it is for efficiency and safety. You're just doing chin ups or pull ups...so do it however you want to do it. Just trying to give you some advice.

I do many variations of chin-ups but always in a relaxed manner and with the body hanging down straight and as relaxed as possible.

What I said to the other poster stands. I get the required results from what I do and if you get yours from what you do, then fine. We are all happy.:)

[SAAMAG]

Yes, I can do more pull ups with less effort; and I can push harder and punch harder. I am stronger than before. i know that other exercise play their part as well, so refrain from enlightening me on this point.

However, I can't lift a car, but then my name isn't Vankuen.:rolleyes:

Didn't you get mad at someone else for rolling their eyes? Tsk tsk. And I can't lift a car! Who told you that?! I told that guy to keep that to ourselves....



I was referring to MY OWN muscle definition and not to other people's and their diets.
So?




Well, I am still waiting.

That's your fault for not comprehending. Do you know why people are constantly screwing with you on here? It's because you're spewing B.S. and most everyone on here knows it. So most of the time we're just screwing with you to pass the time of day when we're bored at work...



It seems that unlike you, I am not a body builder. I practice traditional kung fu and hence follow the traditionaly kung fu methodology that is followed by my particular school.
I knew you'd misinterprete that word. I'm not meaning bodybuilder as in professional body builder, but the fundamental rules are the same whether you're trying to maintain a wiry build or a medium or a bulky build. Didn't realize that the kung fu way to body build was so much different given that the physique is the same and the muscles work the same way...



Well in that case try to concentrate on your memory loss problem and not on teaching me how to train my traditional kung fu, since you don't seem to have a point of reference on the subject.

Cute. Like I've said before, until you can fight with your fantasy gung fu, you have no basis on telling me what I know. I can fight soley with my gung fu alone, or with any of my given systems. I made sure of that before moving on to something else.



That depends on how many arts they cross train in and wether any of those arts are "relevant" to kung fu, not forgetting the time span required to understand and apply any SINGLE kung fu system.
Well, not all men are created equal my friend. Word of advice, to apply it, you have to um...fight. Could by why you're still training and not teaching, huh?



Having said that, it is a personal choice and people can do what they want, it is just when you dillute your kung fu beyond a certain level then you cannot call it kung fu. It just becomes MMA or a glorified form of kick boxing.

You really have something against people using the term gung fu don't you? And kickboxers too I see. That's really funny. Let me edumacate you again, gung fu means a skill that acquired through hard work. The modern day connotation is that it means chinese martial arts...wushu. Either way, my gung fu is my gung fu. Try not to get your panties in a bunch over it.



Surely you mean, other kung fu systems?;)

Nope. You know what I mean.




I would not know how much credibility to put on their opinion as I don't have any knowledge of their kung fu background as a result I don't know if they can distinguish between "gung fu skill" and Kickboxing skills/general fighting skills.

So...does that mean that good gung fu and good fighting skills aren't the same thing? Because you've made a distinction there with that statement that they are not the same things. And based on what you've said in the entire time I've seen you on here, I'd say that's pretty spot on in your case. Maybe Gung fu and good fighting skills are not the same thing...bummer.




Ignorance of the internals again I see. It is muscle mass that blocks the movement of chi.
Man...you know what I meant with that...and what you don't know is that I was just screwing with you.



Don't flatter yourself. Unfortunately you are not even at the level of recognizing real kung fu, but who knows maybe with the help of your bodybuilding and kickboxing friends you'll get there one day.;)

Apparently you're not at the mental level to know when you're getting shammed, or what real fighting is in the first place. Until you realize that reality is based on "real" things, and you get knocked around a couple times, you'll have this same defiant reverance for your divine powers. Did you get beat up by kickboxers as a child by chance?


...

Listen, the only reason people respond to you in the manner they do, is because of the B.S. you're spewing, and the defiant attitude and lack of respect. No one here is rude right off the bat, I've been part of this forum for many years. If people are being rude, it had to have started somewhere...and it seems to be following your posts. You seem to bring out the best in people don't you?

Long story short:

You practice internal siu lum wing tsun (with ground fighting) taught by a 7th level internal master who's name we will never know. You build up your external body to accomodate your internal powers, and believe that there are 70 year old masters who could annilihate 30 year old professional MMA guys. If a person doesn't practice an internal style of gung fu, than they know nothing about fighting or martial arts in general. We get it man...give it a rest.

[HardWork8]

Do you know why people are constantly screwing with you on here?

It is because they are lonely and are looking for attention?


It's because you're spewing B.S. and most everyone on here knows it.
That is a deregatory remark, & by everyone you mean mainly the Jack of All Trades I suppose.


we're just screwing with you to pass the time of day when we're bored at work...

Find a woman or failing that practice your forms & be constructive.


Didn't realize that the kung fu way to body build was so much different

I told you how I practice and why. I also told you that I achieve the desired results from how I practiced. So what is eating you?


until you can fight with your fantasy gung fu, you have no basis on telling me what I know.

For your information I can fight and contact fighting is trained in my WC school. You are beginning to sound like the other crosstrainers here who think that fighting was invented by UFCs.


I can fight soley with my gung fu alone, or with any of my given systems.

That is what you say. Well these are forums so we need to take each others words. However, I have seen "kung fu" fighters doing their forms etc., but when they do fight, they look more like kickboxers. That is why I am a little suspicious.


Well, not all men are created equal my friend.

I realized that when I came across some of your fellow low lifes in these forums.


Word of advice,

Yeeeeeeeeeeees?


to apply it, you have to um...fight.

That is a new one. I have never heard of an "um...fight"Is this a new MODERN crosstraining term. I can see it now "if you mess with me, I am going to "um...fight you". It does have nice ring to it, I must confess.

Well, unfortunately for me we don't "um fight" in Wing Chun. We learn how to FIGHT, through contact sparring.

I have mentioned this fact already to that other "beacon" of martial arts wisdom, T_niehoff and I am getting tired of repeating the same things. Read the bloody posts before you sit down to answer them.


Could be why you're still training and not teaching, huh?

CHRIST! don't tell me that you are a kung fu teacher. What next, t_niehoff bringing out a book on Wing Chun? Mcfries anyone?


You really have something against people using the term gung fu

I have something against SOME crosstrainers, who are nothing more than Glorified Kickboxers or MMA-ists, who happen to have practiced "gung fu" along with a dozen martial arts - going on to advice on kung fu with idiotic statements such as forms are irrelevant or antiquated: Internals in kung fu are fantasy and so on.


And kickboxers too I see.

I take issue with kickboxers who claim to be kung fu practitioners, or "kung fu" practitioners who don't know that they are kickboxers.


That's really funny.

Ha,ha,ha. Happy now?


Let me edumacate you again,

And I am STILL waiting.......


gung fu means a skill that acquired through hard work.

Most people, even in these forums, are aware of that fact.


The modern day connotation is that it means chinese martial arts...wushu.

Yes I am still awake, just.



Either way, my gung fu is my gung fu.

Your kickboxing is your kung fu, using the general definition of kung fu.


So does that mean that good gung fu and good fighting skills aren't the same thing?

That is the first time that you have asked me an intelligent question regarding the traditional approach, so give me a few moments to get over the shock and the surprise, I think that I need a glass of water, just a moment.................................. Oh, I needed that, Ok now here we go with your answer:

If you are a kung fu exponent then when you fight you need to use kung fu techniques in the way they were meant to be used, using the rooting, certain stances and other related concepts.

So that when you fight, then it is recognizable as kung fu. The same concept holds true for traditional karate. These 2 arts are two different means to get to the SAME end.

Kickboxing is the same. Different methods but the same end i.e. GOOD FIGHTING SKILLS.

The fact is that most people who claim to train in Kung Fu tend to fight like kickboxers and that is not the same as kung fu or karate fighting.

My point is that most people who claim to practice kung fu do not train their given system the way it was meant to be trained, hence they fight like kickboxers and as far as I am concerned they do pseudo-kung fu.

I hope that the above statement has clarified the reason why I make the said references to kickboxing (and pseudo-kung fu).


Maybe Gung fu and good fighting skills are not the same thing...bummer.

As you have seen from my explanation above, they are.




Man...you know what I meant with that...

Yes, I know what you meant, "man". You meant (or showed) that you do not know (nor claim to practice) the internals.



and what you don't know is that I was just screwing with you.

You really need to find a good woman for that.;)



Apparently you're not at the mental level to know when you're getting shammed,

The main point here is not wether I am getting shammed, but WHO is "shamming" me and I can only say one thing:

Kickboxers will be kickboxers & crosstrainers will be crosstrainers:D



or what real fighting is in the first place.

Oh, I know about real fighting and real kung fu fighting. However, I am not too sure about pseudo Kung Fu. Can you enlighten us please. Tell you what, why-don't you start a new thread on pseudo-kung fu/kickboxing or MMA. That seems to be the area of your expertise.


Until you realize that reality is based on "real" things,

If you want reality, then why don't you go to Rio, where I lived for some years or to Colombia - a place which I am familiar with - and see how you will fair with your version of reality.

Start with a fourteen year old, that way you will have a better chance of escaping with your life.



Did you get beat up by kickboxers as a child by chance?

No, but I once stepped on one, by mistake.

Anyway, I have explained to you why I make my references to kickboxing and I will be etenally thankful if you don't make me repeat myself again.


Listen, the only reason people respond to you in the manner they do, is because of the B.S. you're spewing, and the defiant attitude

First of all don't make it sound like everybody is treating me badly, because that is a lie and mis-information.

Most of the people who have been "treating" me badly have been crosstrainers such as yourself. Who have roamed these forums for god knows how long,giving advice on KUNG FU TRAINING, of all things, with such 'enlightened' comments as: "kung fu forms are antiquated"; "Internal training is fantasy";"kung fu fighting is not realistic","Kung fu training is counterproductive" and so on.

I CHALLENGED them on all those idiotic remarks and now I have become the enemy. They have gone as far as using false statements and lies to discredit me. You, Vankuen have seen them do this and have kept silent. SHAME ON YOU!


No one here is rude right off the bat,

I suppose they don't lie and make false statements off the bat either!



I've been part of this forum for many years.

Then I am surprised that it is still called the KungFu Forums. I thought by now it would have been called the "Mish Mash Modern MA Forum" or the "Jack of All Trades Forum".



If people are being rude, it had to have started somewhere...

It started when I put them in their place.


You seem to bring out the best in people don't you?

Correction, I seem to bring out the FRAUD in most (not all) of the said people.


You practice internal siu lum wing tsun (with ground fighting)

Make that Wing Chun. None of us wants to be sued now, do we?;)


You build up your external body to accomodate your internal powers,

It is called a yin and yang balance.


and believe that there are 70 year old masters who could annilihate 30 year old professional MMA guys.

FALSE STATEMENT AND MISREPRESENTATION. Would you please show me where I have made such a statement. You are beginning to act like your friends Sanjuro and SoCoKungFu. You are attributing(out of spite) statements to me that I have not made.


If a person doesn't practice an internal style of gung fu, than they know nothing about fighting or martial arts in general

You have misunderstood everything completely. Let me make it easier for your simple mind to understand:

If you ignore the internals in whatever style of kung fu you practice then you are learning your art incompletely.

Meaning, you can learn to fight learning many arts and many of them are valid in their own right. However you cannot ignore the internal aspects of any style of kung fu that you may practice.

[SAAMAG]

For your information I can fight and contact fighting is trained in my WC school. You are beginning to sound like the other crosstrainers here who think that fighting was invented by UFCs.

Fighting wasn't, but the UFC and competitions like it did a great job of showing people which systems were fundamentally superior (and inferior) in the most realistic atmosphere possible (without being the real thing) by giving people a consistent showing of what systems end up coming out on top (no pun intended). There have been a number of wing chun practicioners, all of them losing horribly. Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't still be practicing wing chun if it hasn't been working for me these past 15 years or so...but the fact remains it's had an embarrassing showing at events such as this.



That is what you say. Well these are forums so we need to take each others words. However, I have seen "kung fu" fighters doing their forms etc., but when they do fight, they look more like kickboxers. That is why I am a little suspicious.
Agreed and understandable. But perhaps we should all stop claiming to know how "good" or "authentic" the other's understanding is...I think that would help.



That is a new one. I have never heard of an "um...fight"Is this a new MODERN crosstraining term. I can see it now "if you mess with me, I am going to "um...fight you". It does have nice ring to it, I must confess.
It means...um...fight...um....like something we're suspicious of you doing because of the remarks you make about fighting and training. Ever heard of something called a universal truth? Those that fight tend to have agreements on training philosophies. Those that don't....don't.



Well, unfortunately for me we don't "um fight" in Wing Chun. We learn how to FIGHT, through contact sparring. Than your wing chun is much different that the mainstream--and that's good if that's the case.



I have mentioned this fact already to that other "beacon" of martial arts wisdom, T_niehoff and I am getting tired of repeating the same things. Read the bloody posts before you sit down to answer them.
I don't sit, I use a gung fu single legged half squat stance with my leg crossed. Good training while typing. So you're talking british now eh mate? Bloody hell...and here I thought you were from down south!



CHRIST! don't tell me that you are a kung fu teacher. What next, t_niehoff bringing out a book on Wing Chun? Mcfries anyone?
I have been teaching and practicing for some time now. Privately and in a school. However all that means is that someone asked me to teach them and I took them on as a student...it doesn't denote skill. But if T' wrote a book on wing it would probably make people better at their wing chun by improving their training methodology--which is where I think the fundamental problems are with most schools...be them wing chun or not.



I have something against SOME crosstrainers, who are nothing more than Glorified Kickboxers or MMA-ists, who happen to have practiced "gung fu" along with a dozen martial arts - going on to advice on kung fu with idiotic statements such as forms are irrelevant or antiquated: Internals in kung fu are fantasy and so on.
Don't read into it too much. Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't mean that they don't know what they're doing. It's been proven that forms are not necessary for fighting, but they do have a purpose which is mostly to pass on the movements and for physical exercise. You don't learn "how to fight" from them. If that was the case all the consistently performing "fighting arts" would have forms.



Your kickboxing is your kung fu, using the general definition of kung fu.

Wrong again partner...kickboxing is not MT, there's a difference. My Muay thai is my Muay thai, my WC is my WC, my chin na is chin na. My gung fu is my gung fu; and in the broadest sense it's all gung fu. Get it now?



If you are a kung fu exponent then when you fight you need to use kung fu techniques in the way they were meant to be used, using the rooting, certain stances and other related concepts.

So that when you fight, then it is recognizable as kung fu.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that last bit there, I agree as well as I've made posts in response to video footage of wing chun that looked nothing like wing chun. Any system of gung fu, in application, should resemble the source--i.e. the forms. But keep in mind that "real" fighting isn't pretty, and thus it won't look exactly like the forms. Also keep in mind that real gung fu is felt, not seen.



You meant (or showed) that you do not know (nor claim to practice) the internals.

Actually, I showed nothing. I was responding to your post and used the wrong phrasing...that's all. But that's neither here nor there. I learned my chi gung, 8 piece brocade, and tai chi. It seemed to have it's benefits...




Oh, I know about real fighting and real kung fu fighting. However, I am not too sure about pseudo Kung Fu. Can you enlighten us please. Tell you what, why-don't you start a new thread on pseudo-kung fu/kickboxing or MMA. That seems to be the area of your expertise.
Give it a rest. Or better yet come on down to Texas...open invitation to everyone looking at this. I can show you pseudo gung fu if that's what you really want. That seems to be the only way to shut your yap about your superior gung fu skills.



If you want reality, then why don't you go to Rio, where I lived for some years or to Colombia - a place which I am familiar with - and see how you will fair with your version of reality.

Start with a fourteen year old, that way you will have a better chance of escaping with your life.

Blah blah. "Why don't you come to the ghettos' of "x" place and see how you fair?!" Do you know how utterly stupid that sounds? You think the ghetto of Rio is any different than the ghetto of any other country? It's not. Why don't you come to the ghetto's of china, or korea, or vietnam, or hell...south central LA, USA? Do you think your wing chun will save your ass any better or worse in any of those places? Geography has shiet to do with nothing.



First of all don't make it sound like everybody is treating me badly, because that is a lie and mis-information.
Noooo....I'm pretty sure that everyone here hates your guts. ;)



Most of the people who have been "treating" me badly have been crosstrainers such as yourself. Who have roamed these forums for god knows how long,giving advice on KUNG FU TRAINING, of all things, with such 'enlightened' comments as: "kung fu forms are antiquated"; "Internal training is fantasy";"kung fu fighting is not realistic","Kung fu training is counterproductive" and so on.

I CHALLENGED them on all those idiotic remarks and now I have become the enemy. They have gone as far as using false statements and lies to discredit me. You, Vankuen have seen them do this and have kept silent. SHAME ON YOU!
One, we're not crosstrainers, we're martial artists. Only shoe companies have cross-trainers. Two, prove otherwise...and we'll stop saying that.



I suppose they don't lie and make false statements off the bat either!

No...not usually, minus a couple guys.



Then I am surprised that it is still called the KungFu Forums. I thought by now it would have been called the "Mish Mash Modern MA Forum" or the "Jack of All Trades Forum".
That's been said before, but most of the time (when people such as yourself aren't stirring things up) we can have debates about how we can make OUR gung fu better rather than going back and forth about who's doing the real gung fu or who knows internal shiet or whatever.



It started when I put them in their place.

That's funny. You haven't put anyone in any place. It's an internet forum man...get over it.



It is called a yin and yang balance.

It's called you don't know anything about conventional muscle building or function, at least that what it seems based on that conversation. You claim muscle mass inhibits chi flow, and yet you talk about how your chin ups improved your power levels...chin ups I might add that were done in such a way that didn't improve your muscular strength, but rather just the muscular endurance.



FALSE STATEMENT AND MISREPRESENTATION. Would you please show me where I have made such a statement.
Sure! You decided to show us videos of a 60 yo master who played patty cake and did a couple parlor tricks as proof that there are old masters who know the "real" gung fu. Not saying the gentleman on the vids isn't a nice guy and all, but rather that your post implied the overall train of thought.



If you ignore the internals in whatever style of kung fu you practice then you are learning your art incompletely.

It's impossible to ignore the internal, since there is no way to practice any martial art and completely exlude one aspect or the other.

[unkokusai]

I realized that when I came across some of your fellow low lifes in these forums.

.



Ah, Basement-Boy making more and more friends!

[unkokusai]

For your information I can fight



Oh, I know about real fighting and real kung fu fighting.



How exciting! Ok, since the rest of your transparent bull**** has become unbearably boring, tell us about how you exercised your kungfu fighting prowess to battle your way out of some favela or other.

If you are detemined to play the clown at least be entertaining.

[HardWork8]

Fighting wasn't, but the UFC and competitions like it did a great job of showing people which systems were fundamentally superior

You are talking about the sports arena,then you say,

"Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't still be practicing wing chun if it hasn't been working for me these past 15 years or so..."

So what was your point? That we need to crosstrain Wing Chun with a dozen other martial arts to make it effective?

But perhaps we should all stop claiming to know how "good" or "authentic" the other's understanding is
When they make idiotic remarks such as, "forms are antiquated"; "Internal Training is fantasy"; "Kungfu is not functional"etc. Then it is given that they don't know kung fu.

It means..um..fight.
It was a play with words Vankuen....LOL!

like something we're suspicious of you doing.
Even after I have said that there is fighting training in our WC school? Tell me, do you use a fluoride toothpaste and if so, do you swallow it regularly?

Ever heard of something called a universal truth?
Sometimes,today's "universal truth" is tomorrow's out of fashion, trend.

Those that fight tend to have agreements on training philosophies.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat;)

Than your wing chun is much different that the mainstream
It is not just my Wing Chun.There are other TCMA that emphasis functionality.

I use a gung fu single legged half squat stance with my leg crossed.
Don't tell the other crosstrainers here as you may be victimized.

and here I thought you were from down south!
Nop, I have never even been to Texas.:D

I have been teaching and practicing for some time now
A lot of people "teach" WC nowadays;)

But if T' wrote a book on wing it would probably make people better at their WC by improving their training methodology
T is not qualified to write a book on WC. This art is TCMA and he does not believe in the functionality of the Traditional Arts. Furthermore, he has never practiced in an authentic school of Wing Chun. HE IS NOT QUALIFIED!

If he does write a book on Wing Chun, he will be entering the realm of comedy, in which I believe he has a genuine(genetic?)talent.

On the plus side, if he writes about MMA, then I think he can contribute to the readers' practical fighting knowledge.

which is where I think the fundamental problems are with most schools.
These problems with TCMA have nothing to do with tradiditonal training and everything to do with the Mckwoon phenomenom.

Traditionally, these arts were designed to be functional.

Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't mean that they don't know what they're doing.
If they take out fundemental aspects of traditional training, such as forms and the internals, then they don't know what they are doing as regards traditional kung fu. They may however be doing everything right from a KICKBOXING OR MMA point of view. Are you beginning to understand where I am coming from?


It's been proven that forms are not necessary for fighting,
Not for kickboxers and the MMA-ists. For kung fu practice they have their part to play.

but they do have a purpose which is mostly to pass on the movements and for physical exercise.
And more, which you would have known if you had a "deeper" understanding.

You don't learn "how to fight" from them.
They will help you with your fighting provess if you train them properly. Of course you have to test your skills in combat training.

If that was the case all the consistently performing "fighting arts" would have forms.
Yet, literally thousands of FIGHTING ARTS in the Far East have forms. The masters who created & evolved these arts did not possess T_niehoff and your knowledge I suppose.

Wrong again partner...kickboxing is not MT,
Kickboxing is more MT than it is kung fu.

My Muay thai is my Muay thai, my WC is my WC, my chin na is chin na. My gung fu is my gung fu; and in the broadest sense it's all gung fu. Get it now?
Using the broader definition of "gung fu", then yes it is, and so is the act of cooking that omlette every morning.

However, as far as the Gung Fu the ART is concerned, then you are wrong. "Get it now"?

Any system of gung fu, in application, should resemble the source--i.e. the forms.
I have said this before, just because some guy is chain punching while bouncing around like a boxer, does not mean he is doing WC either. Kung Fu fighting has to be MORE than superficially recognizable.


Also keep in mind that real gung fu is felt, not seen.
That holds true only if you are at the receiving end. If you are watching the fight,then you should recognize the kung fu.

Actually, I showed nothing. I was responding to your post and used the wrong phrasing...that's all.I learned my chi gung, 8 piece brocade, and tai chi.
Just like you "learnt" your kung fu, it seems.

It seemed to have it's benefits...
Then why is this the first time that you have mentioned these "benefits"?

come on down to Texas.I can show you pseudo gung fu if that's what you really want.
I have seen enough pseudo kung fu to last me a lifetime. Save it for the gullible newbies.

As for fighting skill,then I will give you the benefit of the doubt,but my doubt remains as to wether you fight using the art of kung fu or just a jumble of crosstrained MAs.

That seems to be the only way to shut your yap about your superior gung fu skills.
FALSE STATEMENT! Please show me where I state that I have superior gung fu skills? All I have stated is that I practice traditional kung fu in an authentic school.

You think the ghetto of Rio is any different than the ghetto of any other country?
When you see it then you will know what I mean.;)
Geography has shiet to do with nothing.[/quote]
Geography can define your reality and can wake you up and help you to redefine what you believe to be reality;)

Noooo....I'm pretty sure that everyone here hates your guts. ;)
You wish.:D

One, we're not crosstrainers,
Yes you are and that is the whole point of this discussion.....

we're martial artists. Only shoe companies have cross-trainers. Two, prove otherwise...and we'll stop saying that.
....and don't hide behind generalizations.

No...not usually, minus a couple guys.

Lets see the list of those dishonest characters so far:

SoCoKungFu; Sanjuro_Ronin; Unkokusai;Cjurakpt and you have not come out so clean yourself either Mr VanKuen with your insinuations and encouragements.


we can have debates about how we can make OUR gung fu better rather than going back and forth about who's doing the real gung fu or who knows internal shiet or whatever.

When a"kung fu expert" makes idiotic comments such as "internals are fantasy";"forms are useless";"kung fu is not functional",etc.then he is going to get a piece of my mind, because more likely than not, he is here to sell the crosstraining/MMA/Kickboxing approach.

You haven't put anyone in any place.
I have put them in their place and their rear ends are still sore!

...get over it.
That is what I have been trying to tell them.

It's called you don't know anything about conventional muscle building or function,..You claim muscle mass inhibits chi flow, and yet you talk about how your chin ups improved your power levels...
I have already made it clear that I don't have great muscle mass, contradicting another forum "expert". I have increase in strengh and my PUNCHING power levels. I have news for you, in kung fu you can increase your power without increasing muscle mass.

chin ups I might add that were done in such a way that didn't improve your muscular strength, but rather just the muscular endurance.
You can suggest what you want, but I have stated the results of these exercises.

You decided to show us videos of a 60 yo master who played patty cake and did a couple parlor tricks as proof that there are old masters who know the "real" gung fu.
First of all there is a difference between a 70 year old master and a 60 year old one.

Secondly, the fact that you referred to what he did as "parlour tricks" shows how clueless you are regarding kung fu. The man is a REAL MASTER. You say you teach "kung fu" yet you have failed to recognize a master?

Not saying the gentleman on the vids isn't a nice guy and all,
"Nice Guy"? He could wipe the floor with your face.

but rather that your post implied the overall train of thought.
Again, you are being deliberately misleading. My post wanted to show a real master. I did not make any claims to the effect that a 70 year old master can beat MMA champions. You and your other kickboxing friends are trying to project an untrue image of me. Give it up!

It's impossible to ignore the internal, since there is no way to practice any martial art and completely exlude one aspect or the other.
Yes, hide your lack of knowledge of this area behind a general statement as you have demonstrated just how knowledgable you really are regarding the internals.

[HardWork8]

How exciting! Ok, since the rest of your transparent bull**** has become unbearably boring, tell us about how you exercised your kungfu fighting prowess to battle your way out of some favela or other.

If you are detemined to play the clown at least be entertaining.

Hello there Drool Boy. How is the mental therapy coming along? Oh I see that your grand imagination has not changed....Where are the rest of your "mentally challenged" forum friends? Are they medicated or are they preparing other blatant lies and untrue statements to post here in this thread?

Bye for now,

PS.Keep on taking the medication and be good boy and wipe that drool off your mouth.

[unkokusai]

T is not qualified to write a book on WC. .

........................

Are you?

[unkokusai]

Y

And more, which you would have known if you had a "deeper" understanding.
.




And do you have a "deeper" understanding, Basement-Boy?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Normally I don't do this, I am not a mod here, but I did start this thread so, back on topic please and let Mr.Dillusional wallow in his own crapulence.

[Mr Punch]

Holy ****. I didn't realise it was your given name, but I can really see why your ol' bag called you Hard Work: it's Hard Work getting any ****ing sense out of your spew.

What a boring troll:

claims that whatever anyone trains is fine by you (thank you oh wise one) before attempting to tell them that only your way is the real way

dismissing everyone who doesn't agree with you as wrong, a liar, worthless, a retard, or deludedly lacking in The Real (TM)

spouting off about how anyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about and then attempting to talk about weights, exercise in general (to some qualified physical trainers and therapists who on several occasions have gone out of their way to help people out on these boards)... about which you obviously know jack ****...

Jesus... I can't even go on: you're a ****ing idiot and someone's going to kick your stupid ****ing head in if you carry on the way you're going. Viva Evolution! :D

Van summed it up nicely (although I wouldn't waste the energy on hatred): everybody can see you're a prat.

And again, like he said, you should get over yourself: you haven't put anyone in their place - your 'barbs' are as sharp as a balloon. As a famous politician once said, 'Your criticism is like being savaged by a dead sheep.' but less effective. :D

Toby: you know we love these people - it gives us a sense of mission! For a wee while... but this Lotus has already lost his Bloom.

[SAAMAG]

yea...I know I'm bored of him now. So anyway back to what Sanjuro is saying...

[HardWork8]

Normally I don't do this, I am not a mod here, but I did start this thread so, back on topic please and let Mr.Dillusional wallow in his own crapulence.

You should be the last person to make a remark like that. You have proven yourself to be a DISHONEST LIAR.

[HardWork8]

Furthermore, my statement on chin ups stands. I get the required results,which by the way were the results that I was told I would be getting. That is definition, no excessive muscle mass;etc.

If some of you guys do your chin ups differently and are getting different results then that is fine too.

This is the part of the conditioning methodology in my Wing Chun school, again if you do it in a different way, and you are happy with the results,then good for you.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yea...I know I'm bored of him now. So anyway back to what Sanjuro is saying...

So, I know some have issues with Emin, namely his mouth tends to be faster than his hands and his has some fast hands !
But I do like his WT, though, like I mentioned before, I have yet to see it in action outisde of demo's.

[HardWork8]

Holy ****. I didn't realise it was your given name, but I can really see why your ol' bag called you Hard Work: it's Hard Work getting any ****ing sense out of your spew.

What a boring troll:

claims that whatever anyone trains is fine by you (thank you oh wise one) before attempting to tell them that only your way is the real way

dismissing everyone who doesn't agree with you as wrong, a liar, worthless, a retard, or deludedly lacking in The Real (TM)

spouting off about how anyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about and then attempting to talk about weights, exercise in general (to some qualified physical trainers and therapists who on several occasions have gone out of their way to help people out on these boards)... about which you obviously know jack ****...

Jesus... I can't even go on: you're a ****ing idiot and someone's going to kick your stupid ****ing head in if you carry on the way you're going. Viva Evolution! :D

Van summed it up nicely (although I wouldn't waste the energy on hatred): everybody can see you're a prat.

And again, like he said, you should get over yourself: you haven't put anyone in their place - your 'barbs' are as sharp as a balloon. As a famous politician once said, 'Your criticism is like being savaged by a dead sheep.' but less effective. :D

Toby: you know we love these people - it gives us a sense of mission! For a wee while... but this Lotus has already lost his Bloom.

Before you jump to anymore idiotic conclusions and bandwagons, read my last post. It clarifies what started all this. It is rather pompous of some posters to say that themanner and ideed the results I have been getting from a particular type of training should CONFORM to their understanding of the said training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I recall someone that reviewed a few of Emin's DVD's saying that his WT was basically chain punching/striking as the answer to any attack.

[HardWork8]

Holy ****. I didn't realise it was your given name, but I can really see why your ol' bag called you Hard Work: it's Hard Work getting any ****ing sense out of your spew.

What a boring troll:

claims that whatever anyone trains is fine by you (thank you oh wise one) before attempting to tell them that only your way is the real way

dismissing everyone who doesn't agree with you as wrong, a liar, worthless, a retard, or deludedly lacking in The Real (TM)

spouting off about how anyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about and then attempting to talk about weights, exercise in general (to some qualified physical trainers and therapists who on several occasions have gone out of their way to help people out on these boards)... about which you obviously know jack ****...

Jesus... I can't even go on: you're a ****ing idiot and someone's going to kick your stupid ****ing head in if you carry on the way you're going. Viva Evolution! :D

Van summed it up nicely (although I wouldn't waste the energy on hatred): everybody can see you're a prat.

And again, like he said, you should get over yourself: you haven't put anyone in their place - your 'barbs' are as sharp as a balloon. As a famous politician once said, 'Your criticism is like being savaged by a dead sheep.' but less effective. :D

Toby: you know we love these people - it gives us a sense of mission! For a wee while... but this Lotus has already lost his Bloom.

By the way, the following point is relevant to what just happened. If any of these forum gods of kung fu went to traditional kung fu school worth its salt, and said that "Internals do not exist in kung fu", "forms are outdated", "kung fu is not functional", they would be pollitely asked to leave (if they are lucky).

THAT IS A FACT. If you don't follow a certain methodology when practicing traditional kung fu, then you are not practicing traditiona kung fu. Meaning that you are practicing "modern" kung fu, which more often than not resembles kickboxing.
Read and assess that last point before you go back to watchin Sanjuro's "I am a decent person" act.

[SAAMAG]

I recall someone that reviewed a few of Emin's DVD's saying that his WT was basically chain punching/striking as the answer to any attack.

Well...a lot of people say that. But it's not just Emin's. The entire WT line seems to do the same thing, which is why the EBMAS line does it as well. Funny, because their chi sao skills are great! Free flowing, soft, subtle...and yet when everything is applied in drills it's all aboard the lin wan kuen train.

When I was there for what little time I spent there, the most common thing practiced was the chung kuen/vertical fist either in singles or triplets or in chains. I understand that is the primary punch in wing chun, but I don't know if my front delts can take that! Generally, my style of wing chun may use some chain punching after I bridge and I get the line, but it's to facilitate me moving closer to gain control over the head/neck and proceed with elbows and knees. If I'm picking away or can't get in closer because I'm fighting someone good--I'll use lin wan kuen in shots of 3-5, as by then if I'm not able to get in all the way the opponent will have most likely reacted well enough to get guard again. At least that's my experience with it. Not everyone is going to let you cross their arms and pound their face without trying to fight back...;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well...a lot of people say that. But it's not just Emin's. The entire WT line seems to do the same thing, which is why the EBMAS line does it as well. Funny, because their chi sao skills are great! Free flowing, soft, subtle...and yet when everything is applied in drills it's all aboard the lin wan kuen train.

When I was there for what little time I spent there, the most common thing practiced was the chung kuen/vertical fist either in singles or triplets or in chains. I understand that is the primary punch in wing chun, but I don't know if my front delts can take that! Generally, my style of wing chun may use some chain punching after I bridge and I get the line, but it's to facilitate me moving closer to gain control over the head/neck and proceed with elbows and knees. If I'm picking away or can't get in closer because I'm fighting someone good--I'll use lin wan kuen in shots of 3-5, as by then if I'm not able to get in all the way the opponent will have most likely reacted well enough to get guard again. At least that's my experience with it. Not everyone is going to let you cross their arms and pound their face without trying to fight back...;)

This is true, people do tend to hit back, I hate that.
The very physical nature of WT is quite appealing to me, but I think that chain punching needs to be done with more angles and levels than we tend to see from Emin and his Wt.
Again, would be nice to see it in actual combat with someone other than another WT person.

[SAAMAG]

Well...here locally there's a guy that teaches EBMAS named Nico Lahood. This guy is a physically gifted individual. He's in shape, works out with the class (as opposed to just talking), he's respectful and seems truly concerned with the performance of his students and their ability to fight. He even does a 30 min cardio session to make sure people are in shape enough to fight. At times, he'll have friends come in that practice other arts to expose his students to groundwork and other things.

So though I may have disagreements with some of the tactics...the training is top notch.

I just wish Emin didn't do his salsa dancing while doing chi sao with another half naked guy at one of his seminars. That will never be lived down. They did absolutely 0 to help the image of wing chun! lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well...here locally there's a guy that teaches EBMAS named Nico Lahood. This guy is a physically gifted individual. He's in shape, works out with the class (as opposed to just talking), he's respectful and seems truly concerned with the performance of his students and their ability to fight. He even does a 30 min cardio session to make sure people are in shape enough to fight. At times, he'll have friends come in that practice other arts to expose his students to groundwork and other things.

Sounds like serious and practical training.


I just wish Emin didn't do his salsa dancing while doing chi sao with another half naked guy at one of his seminars. That will never be lived down. They did absolutely 0 to help the image of wing chun! lol

I don't dare ask...

[SAAMAG]

You don't have to....it's part of the Bullshido "wing chun sucks" compilation on you tube.

If you watch it, you have to admit, the stuff on the video doesn't make any of us chunners look good....but it's all in fun to me. If I spent to the time to find a bunch of crappy wrestlers I could put that up and say "wrestling sucks"....but I simply don't care enough to do that...that it would be harder to find the crappy ones since most are good. Quite the opposite in our circles...unfortunately.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You don't have to....it's part of the Bullshido "wing chun sucks" compilation on you tube.

If you watch it, you have to admit, the stuff on the video doesn't make any of us chunners look good....but it's all in fun to me. If I spent to the time to find a bunch of crappy wrestlers I could put that up and say "wrestling sucks"....but I simply don't care enough to do that...that it would be harder to find the crappy ones since most are good. Quite the opposite in our circles...unfortunately.

TCMA tend to be a constipated bunch, almost as bad as the TJMA LOL !
Prune juice is the way to go.