running/sparring

[Hitman]

Dear all,
I got a friend who does 5 miles run regularly, but can not spar for more than 30 seconds. I cannot run for 5 miles, but can spar more than a minute.
You used more energy running for 5 miles than sparring intensively for 30 second. My question is how come some one who can run for 5 miles, but can not spar for 30 seconds to save his life?


Thank you
Hitman

[Egg fu young]

Good question. I was training for a marathon years ago and was running 5 miles Monday through Thursday and a long run (12 miles) on Friday. I was also taking Judo and when we would randori (judo spar) I was left winded after about 30 seconds. I read a boxing workout a few months back that explained it simply that while throwing a punch you are in an anaerobic state (holding your breath too an extent) and while you are moving around the ring you are in an aerobic state(breathing). Now because when you box you are supposed to punch in order to win. You spend 85% of the time in that anaerobic zone, that if you havent trained for, will leave you blown up. Before everyone on the forum attacks me and calls my mom names please be advised I am not the author of the book I'm just relaying what it said as my limited memory allows.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Cardio has always been activity specific or sport specific if you prefer, there are a couple of links in the stickied "strength training" thread.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=849944&postcount=154

[Oso]

wow, a whole minute straight? really???

[Suntzu]

running/sparring...... 2 totally different activities..... 2 totally different energy system.....SAID principle, look it up.....

[Oso]

i don't think they are totally different, if they were boxers, and others, wouldn't spend so much time doing roadwork.

you have to have a good cardio base for anything. I would think someone who could run 5 miles should be able to kick out 3, 2-minute rounds w/o much trouble.

[xcakid]

Running builds stamina.
Bag work build proper breathing method for stronger hits as well as being able to coordinate movements so that you are not out of sync and out of breath all the time.

Both go hand in hand.


Being out of sync with your breathing will cause you to gas out. Being hit and knocking the wind out of will throw you out of sync. If you hold your breath when punching you will be out of sync and out of breath.

A lot of folks also tense up when they spar. This causes the muscles to contract, therefore requiring more oxygen. Runner tend to relax when they run. Only their legs are using most of their oxygen. People that spar tend to tense up their entire body, specially when they are getting hit quite a bit.

If you relax, try to breath evenly. You should be able to last a while. Last Friday, I sparred with 4 people. We did a sort of round robin. 2 min rds. with 1min rest as we rotated in and out. We last for about an hour straight. We were also sparring with first hands only, then feet only, then hands and feet, then added sweeps and take downs, then wrestling after sweep/take down. I was beat afterwards (figuratively and literally), but I lasted the whole session and was effective.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i don't think they are totally different, if they were boxers, and others, wouldn't spend so much time doing roadwork.

you have to have a good cardio base for anything. I would think someone who could run 5 miles should be able to kick out 3, 2-minute rounds w/o much trouble.

Well, that has come into debate as of recently, the carry over of one cardio even to another is very small.
Thing is, running is a general purpose cardio event, everyone runs at some point in their lives, best to be able to do it and not huff n puff.
Then again, you can;'t just do sport specific cardio, that gets boring too.
Soccer, Basketball, swimming, cycling, all good, fun activities, also hiking and climbing.

Its just when we have limited time to devote to cardio ( or any other activity for that matter) that we need to decided what to focus on and in that regard, activity specific cardio is best.

[David Jamieson]

Running is more and more being dropped from regimens and replaced with supersetting and cross fit type stuff wall ball, kb, weights, and other stuff that has been rearranged to deliver efficient and effective results in given timelines.

plyometrics and wall ball being real interesting additions to th fighters training regimen.

Running is a quick high as far as getting the breathing and heart rate peaking fairly quickly. It usually will break a sweat on me at a slower pace than bag work thouh.

functionally speaking as far as cardio goes, I think that bag work and plyo stuff will get your heart and breath going faster than running.

running has some value, just not as much and it certainly isn't the most efficient way to cross develop strength and endurance like a cross fit or p90x routine or the like. :-)

[Suntzu]

running also aids in recovery.... builds mental tuffness.... helps clean out the toxins built up from muscular breakdown and is meditative....

but sparring is highly anaerobic..... full body.... and correlates little be being able to run for distance/time.... improving anaerobic performance improves aerobic performance.... but not the other way around....

endurance is extremely task specific.... you have to train muscles to use oxygen in the mode(this case sparring) that you need them to be used in.....

tension during the activity also plays a HUGE role in "gassing out"... as xcakid points out.....

[brainwars]

running has some value, just not as much and it certainly isn't the most efficient way to cross develop strength and endurance like a cross fit or p90x routine or the like. :-)


i have looked p90x up and although i can find lots of sites that are trying to sell me something i can't find any footage. Is it a machine or what or is it a book of techniques? looks good.

[David Jamieson]

its a program/system.

super effective.

I'll post pics one day... maybe, if I feel like it, I don't really dig the whole testimonials, but if you got the will power, p90x will help you look good. It is not a martial arts thing though.

It essentially turns people from lardo to sweet via a regimen of fairly brutal workout made up of all kinds of different routines.

also, running gets rid of toxins by producing sweat, raising blood flow and oxygen intake.

well, bag work isn't 100% anaerobic if you do your footwork drills. yeah, it's light intensity, but, it gives you the 70/30 action and provides the higher rate oxygen exchange. Fighting is about 70/30 anaerobic vs aerobic with the aerobic part being your mobility stuff. ranging and footwork drills incorporated in your bag routines will give you a good workout depending how many rounds you are capable of going.

[Pork Chop]

running also aids in recovery.... builds mental tuffness.... helps clean out the toxins built up from muscular breakdown and is meditative....


Isn't running also pretty catabolic? which would seem to be the opposite of these effects?

My muay thai class has us running around the room for a good 10~15 minutes with calisthenics mixed in (like the good ole days). I just take it easy and don't really push it. Outside of that I'd rather just spend the time on the elliptical cross trainer and save myself the joint pain.

[David Jamieson]

Running can be overdone. It can also be underdone. Like any training, it has to be metered to the body it is working with/on.

some people run all the time, workout all teh time and still don't achieve the desired results.

I know people who have been stuck in those cycles for years. the reasons are quite a few why they don't achieve the results they want.

everything from not also changing their dietary intake to match their caloric needs.
Not changing the dietary intake to exclude counter productive substances (chips, pops and chocolate bars can just barely be called food lol)
Not changing to a diet to have effective combinations of nutrients.

then, there's the exercise part.
Many of the people (they'd hate it if I got on em about it but...) exercise incorrectly, not in a structured manner, without goals and without a system that is objective oriented. they just do one thing, like saying running, and nothing else and expect that to be their panacea.

I suspect most of them have some inkling that the problem is their own and that there is a question of will power and motivation and collection of knowledge that is to be applied that is needed. But, people aren't comfortable with their failures unless they are in a room full of people who share those failures as well.

when they get into a group dynamic with a leader that knows what to do, they are fine, when left to their own routines, it's fat ass on th sofa wiping chip dust off their chests as they flip through the channels day after day after day. lol

this is why gender specific gyms work for women.

[IronWeasel]

Cardio has always been activity specific or sport specific if you prefer, there are a couple of links in the stickied "strength training" thread.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=849944&postcount=154



There is definitley some truth to this. I believe that there is SOME carryover...so that running will HELP increase your sparring time, but not as much as MORE SPARRING will.

I run three miles, but still gasp for air in class.

I think running is still the granddaddy of cardio for weight loss, though.

[Lucas]

one more benefit from doing forms/bag training.

works many of the same aspects you need for sparring endurance.

[Suntzu]

Isn't running also pretty catabolic? which would seem to be the opposite of these effects?
true..... i'm sure there is a certain threshold.... i couldn't find any research on exactly what that would be.... i'm certain that would be individual.... but this is prob the only time you will hear/see my say anything good about running:eek:

but time is better spent doing sprints, circuits, bag/pad work on your free time.... run for you pleasure.... but not to be better at kickin azz.... imo

[Shaolinlueb]

running/sparring...... 2 totally different activities..... 2 totally different energy system.....SAID principle, look it up.....


what he said. 2 different types of cardio.

[Oso]

i'll still always advocate a run a week in addition to other stuff.

[Lucas]

I hate running with a passion...but I still do it.

[Oso]

so just run dispassionately :)

[BoulderDawg]

Dear all,
I got a friend who does 5 miles run regularly, but can not spar for more than 30 seconds. I cannot run for 5 miles, but can spar more than a minute.
You used more energy running for 5 miles than sparring intensively for 30 second. My question is how come some one who can run for 5 miles, but can not spar for 30 seconds to save his life?

How long has your friend been sparring? When I first started MA I was so tense sparring that I caught myself actually holding my breath.

[Hitman]

How long has your friend been sparring? When I first started MA I was so tense sparring that I caught myself actually holding my breath.


He has been sparring with me for 3 years.

Himan

[Lucas]

so just run dispassionately :)

Actually, I just run where there are skantilly clad women.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, I just run where there are skantilly clad women.

I tried that once, kept tripping on something.:D

[golden arhat]

i dont run but i find that simply trying to spar for a long time each time reguralry will get you where you want


i could spar for half an hour if i wanted to, i'd be exhausted afterwards but it isnt a big feat really

[sanjuro_ronin]

How much you do is inversely proportion to how intensely you do it.
You can go long and easy or hard and fast ( ;) )
But you can't go hard and fast for long.
HIIT is based on that simple scientific fact.

Knew someone that could train for an hour and hardly broke a sweat.
He never tried to.
Most people when they try HIIT or think they are doing HIIT fail to realize that, if you can do it for a long time, its isn't HIIT.
There is a reason that the longer you run full out, the slower you get.
Paced workouts are the anti-HIIT

[David Jamieson]

It's hard to run with a raging hard on in my opinion.

unless you're totally naked, then you could do it with not much discomfort. :)

[Lucas]

The hot chicks are for motivation. You have to strut your manly study body for them while they fawn over your ability to be bad ass.

So far this has kept me running.

[BoulderDawg]

In Boulder we have the naked pumpkin run every Halloween! All Kung Fu people are welcomed! :p

[cjurakpt]

wow, a whole minute straight? really???
I was thinking the same thing, LOL

I was never a runner - always su(ked wind way early; but sparring I could do for extended periods of time - maybe it was bec my first style was TKD and it was designed to have you basically kick high and full contact unrelentingly for however long those fights were (3X2 min. rounds); and we drilled accordingly, so lots of sport specific cardio and it was done in essentially a plyometric manner, back before that was en vogue; of course, there were times when you'd be circling, etc., so it's not full tilt the whole time either, so I guess you learned to how to maximize your breathing during those periods? plus it was a lot more fun, so you don't notice when you are pooped as much...

now I get winded after a shorter time, but I can still hang ok for a while bec. my usage is pretty efficient; of course, I wouldn't want to go up against someone really motivated these days, LOL...

[Mook Jong]

This is kinda just a general cardio question, but what about swimming? personally i hate running just for the sake of running, can't get motivated to do it. Swimming, however, I can do whenever, I love it. Does it help with cardio at all or what?

[xcakid]

How bout doing all your forms 5 times each non stop. :D

[Suntzu]

This is kinda just a general cardio question, but what about swimming? personally i hate running just for the sake of running, can't get motivated to do it. Swimming, however, I can do whenever, I love it. Does it help with cardio at all or what?
general "cardio"?..... yes....

[eomonroe00]

i have the answer to this fundamental question, when we train stamina its not our general overall stamina, if we train it through running, we are training the stamina in the muscles we use to run, and if we train stamina by hitting the heavy bag as fast and hard as we can for ten minutes we are still training stamina but in different muslces,

you both train stamina but in different muscles, thats why if you switch your cardio routine, and switch the muscles u use you might be more out of breath than u expected, from running to sparring, to swimming to biking, to running up steps, to roller blading,

if you freinds wants to increase his stamina for sparring, he should use those muscles , i.e. hit a heavy bag as hard as he can as fast as he can, start at 30 seconds and advance, and use kicks too if thats what he plans on using to spar,

[David Jamieson]

How bout doing all your forms 5 times each non stop. :D

iron wire 5 times will not do much for cardio. lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

iron wire 5 times will not do much for cardio. lol

Yeah, puking out a lung after the 3rd time wreaks havoc on one's Vo2 capacity.
:D

[cjurakpt]

i have the answer to this fundamental question, etc.
you and the fields of motor learning, rehab medicine, exercise physiology, athletic training and any others that have spent any time objectively examining the parameters involved in of skill specific training, LOL...;)

[eomonroe00]

no , just me, lol

[David Jamieson]

in terms of cardio development for fighting. I think high intensity/ high and low impact plyometrics will like make a huge difference.

[zapruder_bjj]

Alright for all your endurance needs:

http://crossfit.com/

Best site ever

[sanjuro_ronin]

Alright for all your endurance needs:

http://crossfit.com/

Best site ever

Always found them to be overrated, but certainly good general fitness stuff on there.