Chi Gerk

[Wilson]

First, if the spelling is wrong, I apologize. Some WC buddies and I have been discussing chi gerk lately and I thought it would make for an interesting topic.

Train it / Don't train it / Don't care?

I see it as an often overlooked tool...especially in the dirty boxing range. Not the typical movements (or typical named ideals - ex. bong gerk, etc.) which seem focused on leg checks or larger sweeps. I see it as more subtle - towards using leg/knee/foot "sensitivity" or positioning in a way to off-balance or set up something else.

Any useful tools / thoughts / experiences you could share from your training?

Thanks

[Toby]

I hate it. Every time we train chi gerk heavily I end up hardly being able to walk for a day or two afterwards.

OTOH I wish I trained it more often. It definitely provides some useful skill. I really like a few of the kicks and it's frustrating when you're up against someone with good leg skills - gives them a great advantage.

[SAAMAG]

EBMAS guys use your sensitivity aspect to get straight in and take the center, while keeping the leg "springy" in case manuvering needs to be done. Weight's on the back leg almost entirely, so that when someone is attempting to sweep the front leg posture is maintained. I think EB even showed a bit of it on the seminar video that's floating around. While not chi gerk in the traditional sense, I'm thinking that might be more of what you were asking about.

From a traditional standpoint, the bong/jing/jut gurk setup which is great, but I prefer to use more of a free flowing san sao approach to it; as that's the way it was shown to me originally.

Overall I think it's a great tool. I've always liked being able to offset someone with my legs, and have always used my legs to block and manipulate low attacks. Additionally I'm almost always using gerk techniques down low at the same time I'm using sao fot...so the skill in my mind is imperitive.

...

What's always worked well for me is when I enter from an "outside" angle, say like a right tan sao/tan do vs a right punch. Depending on the leg positioning (which leg I stepped forward with) I'd leg reap inwards or outwards while controlling the arm and elbow with some sort of chin-na. It's a good setup...and while it doesn't work 100% of the time, it works more often than not, because once someone is unbalanced, the mind is redirected from the punching arm allowing me to more easily manipulate it into and arm bar or a standing figure 4 lock (kimura type lock).

Good question.

[Phil Redmond]

I'll be expecting the hate mails after this post. :)
Yip Man didn't chi geuk. It was made up by some students. I've heard this from a few YM students through the years and I even have an article explaining the details. I'll see if Ican find it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll be expecting the hate mails after this post. :)
Yip Man didn't chi geuk. It was made up by some students. I've heard this from a few YM students through the years and I even have an article explaining the details. I'll see if Ican find it.

Yip Man obviously didn't have the REAL WC :D

[Phil Redmond]

Yip Man taught leg defenses/checks and such but no formal chi geuk exercise like in chi sao. Here is the article I refered to:

[Phil Redmond]

Yip Man obviously didn't have the REAL WC :D
I knew I was going to get hit with sarcasm or worse . ...:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I knew I was going to get hit with sarcasm or worse . ...:D

Didn't you know ??
Only one system of WC is the real WC, and its Sil Lum Wing Chun :D
Everything else, is just samba dancing and jell-o wrestling.

[Wilson]

Sifu Redmond - Yip Man or no Yip Man, do you see any worth in the training?

Again, I don't know about the legs high in the air stuff. We do an exercise from time to time just to get a feel for anatomy and balance. With a partner standing in various stances, use your hands to manipulate their knee and feel how to move the joint in ways that cause it give way. And by stance, it could be anything from a solid formal stance, to one that is off balanced after a missed punch, legs together, legs apart, etc.

After getting a feel, then during drills if you find yourself in a position where your legs are close to your opponents, you can try to manipulate their knee using your shin, your knee, your ankle, etc. Or, lock their foot in place as you move the rest of their body causing stress on the joints. The balance break is only a split second, so a bridge with the hands works well to take advantage with a strike or push.

I find myself in this type of situation during the clinch or dirty boxing. Not necessarily looking for it, but if I feel my leg close to the opponents, I believe it could be a good tool.

Would this still be considered chi geuk? (thanks for the spelling)

[Phil Redmond]

Sifu Redmond - Yip Man or no Yip Man, do you see any worth in the training?

Again, I don't know about the legs high in the air stuff. We do an exercise from time to time just to get a feel for anatomy and balance. With a partner standing in various stances, use your hands to manipulate their knee and feel how to move the joint in ways that cause it give way. And by stance, it could be anything from a solid formal stance, to one that is off balanced after a missed punch, legs together, legs apart, etc.

After getting a feel, then during drills if you find yourself in a position where your legs are close to your opponents, you can try to manipulate their knee using your shin, your knee, your ankle, etc. Or, lock their foot in place as you move the rest of their body causing stress on the joints. The balance break is only a split second, so a bridge with the hands works well to take advantage with a strike or push.
I find myself in this type of situation during the clinch or dirty boxing. Not necessarily looking for it, but if I feel my leg close to the opponents, I believe it could be a good tool.

Would this still be considered chi geuk? (thanks for the spelling)
There are some very good lower gate leg checks and blocks in the various versions of WC. But trying to do a circling exercise to emulate chi sao wasn't part of Yip Man's curriculum according to what I was taught. I always add according to what I was taught/told because none of us were around in those days to make any concrete claims. The spelling gerk is acceptable. I'm just anal at the fact that Cantonese has no 'r' sounds. :cool:

[Matrix]

Everything else, is just samba dancing and jell-o wrestling.
You're saying that like it's a bad thing. :p

Bill

[BRnPA]

Sifu Redmond/Wilson:

We were working chi geuk this week and did both the slow bong geuk and chi geuk (inside/outside) exercises from your article posted. We also took it a little further and did some leg checking drills (my shins are busted up a little bit). What's TWC's position on leg checks for kicks? If/when do you see a use for them? How do these leg positions relate to the Entry Technique in TWC?

Thanks,

BRnPA

[Phil Redmond]

Sifu Redmond/Wilson:

We were working chi geuk this week and did both the slow bong geuk and chi geuk (inside/outside) exercises from your article posted. We also took it a little further and did some leg checking drills (my shins are busted up a little bit). What's TWC's position on leg checks for kicks? If/when do you see a use for them? How do these leg positions relate to the Entry Technique in TWC?

Thanks,

BRnPA
Interruptibility is an essential part of TWC. Obviously we're speaking of the TWC entry where the leg is raised. There are various other ways of closing the gap (entering), but I'll deal with the raised leg entry. The raised leg could turn into a kick or even be a feint, "Generally" the leg is raised if there is an attack (kick/punch), to the lower gate. If contact is made on the raised leg you'll need to be able to interrupt and change to an advantagous position. When we do train the raised leg entry we have to be able to deal with an opponent moving back, laterally, diagonally, charging in, round/front/side/spin kicking, shooting in for a takedown, etc.

[couch]

I was taught Chi Gerk and I teach it to people as well. I think it's really important. I see it this way:

I was always taught 'elbow to elbow/diamond to diamond.' The Dai Bong (Low-Action Bong) is a good example of this. If my hands are at my sides (unprepared defense) and my attacker strikes low, I can easily Dai Bong. This generally lands on their forearm or best if their elbow. But, of course, I'm only seeking centre.

As in the above example, I see the elbow-to-elbow nature with the Chi Gerk. I like the knee-to-knee drills that are in the photos/article Phil provided. I use that drill a lot in the beginning. It really helps drive a sensitivity home for when your opponent lifts their leg...you can easily and sub-consciously lift yours.

The drills really have a mind of their own after a while. After chasing centre with all the arm and leg drills, in a sparring session, you easily chase the centre and lift a leg when your opponent kicks, etc.

So, I love the Chi Gerk exercises. They help reinforce the maxim (visually as well as with sensitivity): Hand blocks hand, foot blocks foot, there is no unstoppable technique.

Hope this helps,
Kenton

[Phil Redmond]

I was taught Chi Gerk and I teach it to people as well. I think it's really important. I see it this way:

I was always taught 'elbow to elbow/diamond to diamond.' The Dai Bong (Low-Action Bong) is a good example of this. If my hands are at my sides (unprepared defense) and my attacker strikes low, I can easily Dai Bong. This generally lands on their forearm or best if their elbow. But, of course, I'm only seeking centre.

As in the above example, I see the elbow-to-elbow nature with the Chi Gerk. I like the knee-to-knee drills that are in the photos/article Phil provided. I use that drill a lot in the beginning. It really helps drive a sensitivity home for when your opponent lifts their leg...you can easily and sub-consciously lift yours.

The drills really have a mind of their own after a while. After chasing centre with all the arm and leg drills, in a sparring session, you easily chase the centre and lift a leg when your opponent kicks, etc.

So, I love the Chi Gerk exercises. They help reinforce the maxim (visually as well as with sensitivity): Hand blocks hand, foot blocks foot, there is no unstoppable technique.

Hope this helps,
Kenton

Hi Kenton, since Wing Chun is a "Kuen" the option to enhance Wing Chun is open.
Chi Geuk (gerk) may help some people. ;)

[Vajramusti]

I'll be expecting the hate mails after this post. :)
Yip Man didn't chi geuk. It was made up by some students. I've heard this from a few YM students through the years and I even have an article explaining the details. I'll see if Ican find it.
--------------------------------------------------
Phil- you are entitled to your opinion...mine is different. Depends on who you ask.
joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

No chi-gerk...from V Kan And WSL ...leg defense using leg v leg but no redundant one leg in the air while standing on, er... ah, one leg :D
stop kicks in line with the incoming leg....a-b line thinking of the heel whats in the path of the line is a target. Continuing the attack idea if loss of hands is to fill the void with a rear kick and another ...to keep the attacking intent constant even if the guy attempts to simply step away from your hands. Placing all your weight on the rear leg wont make this an easy thing to do ;). theres more but ...

[Phil Redmond]

No chi-gerk...from V Kan And WSL ...leg defense using leg v leg but no redundant one leg in the air while standing on, er... ah, one leg :D
stop kicks in line with the incoming leg....a-b line thinking of the heel whats in the path of the line is a target. Continuing the attack idea if loss of hands is to fill the void with a rear kick and another ...to keep the attacking intent constant even if the guy attempts to simply step away from your hands. Placing all your weight on the rear leg wont make this an easy thing to do ;). theres more but ...
I agree Kevin. I've had three of Yip Man's students and a few others tell me that there was no standing on one leg circling exercise taught by YM and that it was made up by some students. But if it works for some it's all good.

[chusauli]

There is no Chi Gerk with Hawkins Cheung either. I also know that William Cheung and Wong Shun Leung did not have it. Koo Sang mentioned it when I trained with him in 1987. When I visited Lo Man Kam and Tsui Sheung Tien in 1987, they did not have the exercise.

I think it is a method developed in the 1960's with Ng Chan, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Koo Sang, etc.

IMO, it should not be an exercise to stay up on one leg, but rather, a dynamic method of trapping the knees, breaking balance, guiding kicks, shaving legs, kicking the support leg, push horse, deflection, striking with the knees, etc.

The way I teach it is we start in a parallel or cross leg and when we feel an opponent's kick or leg raise, we move with it. It becomes a dynamic exercise that can be added to Chi Sao or San Sao. Without this exercise, people get "loose" about low leg defense...

Chi Gerk/Sticking Legs Categories include:

Stepping – Moving the stance
Trapping – Trapping the opponent’s leg
Striking – Use of the foot, knee, shin, thigh
Intercepting – cutting off the opponent’s attack
Running – going away from the force
Sweeping – Destroying the opponent’s balance
Sticking – Moving with the opponent
Asking – Inquiring the next move
Protecting – Guarding the body and placement of the knee

The above is how I categorize skills, I do not teach these as techniques. These are my categorization and progressions, and not anyone else's.

Augustine Fong did run through his system with me when he visited NYC in the 80's. I combined what I learned from him and from my other instructors and have this method now. Probably Augustine was the first to really show his system in depth. I admire his innovation and teachings to the art.

Hawkins Cheung, due to his small stature, probably has the best legs in WCK (that I have seen). He used his methods of leg checks, disruptions, counters, offbalancing on me first hand. And I sparred him and received many a leg kick with his hard dress boots on... fortunately, since I am a Chinese medicine practitioner, I have good Dit Da and acupuncture to help me forget about the pain... :)

WCK needs to develop this skill - it is still a viable skill for the lower gates.

[k gledhill]

V Kan just did a simple right angle knee/shin lift to a low kick ..it could combine going in and following or dropping the leg back to recover if the guy came in, keeping balance...better to take it on the shin than the 'monkey steals the peaches" ;)
The action was swift up down not stay in air dumdeedum ...

Our training did include 3 minute on one leg holding the lead leg up in this manner.:D sounds easy :)
along with same holding balance chambered in sidekick positions, or after multiple front /side kicks , simply for balance training. But any of these combos could easily follow the path of leg sticking if allowed to. one can use anything to acomplish the goal at hand so it was never said you cannot, but rather 'no limit as limit'....V kan also showed close quarter counters to leg attacks involving simple foot to knee stamps to finish.

[Vajramusti]

Without being a wiseguy- to the best of my knowledge- Ip Man rarely taught chi gerk but he did teach chi gerk and Ho Kam Ming directly learned chi gerk from Ip Man. I cant comment on anyone else in that generation.

Both as an old style sifu and one who had to depend on wing chun for personal survival and then later economic survival in HK- Ip Man appears to have taught different things to different folks and understandably of course for a fee. Often one private student didnt know what another was learning.That is why hearsay can be quite confusing.

Ip man himself in his younger days used his legs a lot more than he did in later years..

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Whatever floats your boat :D

[Vajramusti]

Whatever floats your boat :D
================================================== ==

why of course! But I was not talking about my boat.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

Leung Sheung and my Sifu learned chi gerk from Yip Man as well… It’s just not understood and taught by most instructors today as we speak… It seems to me that only the first group (ten or-so students) learned chi gerk from Yip Man back in the 1950s (maybe not all of the first 10)… Yip Man himself was rarely seen teaching a group class, yet along with teaching chi gerk to the masses…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

Funny that the idea of 'sticking' or 'hand chasing' actually ISN'T the idea in chi-sao development. So it stands to reason of logic it wouldn't carry over to the feet.

We dont try to stick to each others arms with wrist force :rolleyes:, this wrist force is what gives the user the bad habit of trying to put his energy out at the distal point of the elbow theory altogether, WRONG thinking, but a common one.

Like I said there are things one can do but not sticking to a leg ....the longer you stand on one leg with a willing partner the more unstable you will be with an unwilling fighter....attack the person don't stop to do sticky anything :D

[SAAMAG]

While the during the exercise itself one's goal is to stick, I don't feel that is the ultimate goal of the exerciise. That is, the goal in the fight isn't to stay sticking on one leg.

With either chi sao or chi gerk, the point of the exercise (to me) is to learn sensitivity and ingrain a natural reaction for those seconds that the arms or leg may be in contact during a fight, since what WC in general teaches is to close the distance, pinning the arms if possible (which inevitably will be an obstacle), and [counter]attacking.

Naturally during this process with being in such close proximity, the front legs may be touching, and this is where the drill comes into play. It helps build that sensitivity to feel if the leg is in a superior posiiton, and helps to feel any kinds of shifts in position of the legs of the opponent. Typically, I'll practice the drill in a non-formatted way, meaning I'll be touching with the leg (foot on ground) and if I feel my opponent try to gain better position to advance, kick, throw, retreat, and etcetera, I'll react to it accordingly (hopefully anyway).

So, I don't think the drill advocates standing on one leg, as that's just not smart at that range (or any range for that matter). If the opponent were to kick, the leg check would inevitiably follow, but afterwards the leg should immediatly return to it's root (in application). Like moving stances, the chi gerk drill is simply capturing a *moment* in time to facilitate the ultimate goal of maintaining a superior standing position.

The key to this exercise, is instead of doing it like the traditional drill--do it with as much resemblance to fighting as possible. Practicing entry, get to a bridge for the sake of the exercise, have one of the participants try to move to the inside, outside, retreat, kick, all that sort of thing. The goal of the other participant is to react and gain better position. All this can be done in conjunction sao fot as well--but until that skill level comes, I typically have the hands just maintaining the better fighting line.

[Ali. R]

What I’m saying here is very much fact to most, and this is what I’ve been teaching for over twenty-five years dealing with this subject… I’m sure 80% of the Hong Kong Wing Chun population would agree with this… Remember its just information and not written in stone…

I was taught that the feet stops the feet, and the hands stops the hands, in other words you don’t bend down with the arms too stop the feet or kicks, but only use the legs too do so…

That particular drill (chi gerk) prepares one; by slicing, jamming and wedging as well as redirecting low gate energies without the clash or banging of legs (as in MT) when in application or in execution…

There is a condition drill that deals with the framework of chi gerk, which taps each side of the lower leg or shin… By training too stand on one leg when working that drill (chi gerk as well as condition) really enhance ones balance…

When ones balance is good dealing with one leg, then one can really hone in on the kicking drills soon after the leg condition drills are mastered, this way they can really learn too control their kicking leg and begin too use multiple kicks with balance and power…

The more one start too stand or trains too stand on one leg the stronger his balance will becomes… In most systems that I know of that deals with kicks, teaches their student how too keep their balance first… When kicking: one foot is always on the floor and the other is lifted in the air…

If one wants too master the kick or block, which is used with the leg, then one should master the understanding of the foot or leg that is planted to the floor, this is why we stand on one leg as long as possible when working these drills for balance, power and agility dealing with the single leg approach…


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

Great post and good points on the kicking skills Ali. While it's true the student can learn balance with the kicking in this fashion, I don't use chi gerk for this. I advocate to practice kicking separately at full force on a bag, or do some other kicking drills to gain this skill.

I also don't teach multiple kicking any longer (outside of just for being able to do something "cool" or building a natural attribute). Never will I advocate it in a real situation. The reason I don't teach the chain kicking (without placing the foot down in between) any longer is because in general--those types of kicks are not powerful enough to do damage each time, subsequently that sort of chain kicking places the kicker in danger of a takedown for those in the know. The closest thing I will teach is the leg check/sweep to the front leg to side kick to the back leg...which I've used and seen as a functional technique on several occasions.

Take a look at the TKD chain kicks and the MT round kick, for example. Which would you be more concerned with? Easy way to illustrate this is to try doing chain round kicks on a bag, and noticing how much effect they have, following up with round kicks on the bag putting your foot down in between each kick. HUUUGE difference in effectiveness and not much difference in time.

[Ali. R]

I really understand what you’re saying about the multiple kicks, but power will come if your balance is good…

I can break two baseball bats with my shins while going in two different direction while standing on one leg, it may take some longer too develop it though, it can be done… The ankle, knee and waste joints can only move so-many ways before collapsing to pressure…

If the stance is good there’s a lot of things that one can do… while in YJKYM, I will have my students push me as hard as they want, and they cannot push me from my stance, my back stays straight and my feet do not move…

If one can master his balance as well as power by standing on one leg, then through focus and agility one will easily find those collapsible points within the joints of the leg of his opponent, by keeping their opponent pre-occupied with sight, (the hands) and while the leg really starts too work on your opponents balance (collapsible points)…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Tom Kagan]

Funny that the idea of 'sticking' or 'hand chasing' actually ISN'T the idea in chi-sao development. So it stands to reason of logic it wouldn't carry over to the feet.

Actually, 'sticking' is the idea. 'Sticking' is quite different than 'sticky'. Look it up.

"I don't know much English. This word, I happen to know." -- Moy Yat.

[SAAMAG]

I really understand what you’re saying about the multiple kicks, but power will come if your balance is good…

I can break two baseball bats with my shins while going in two different direction while standing on one leg, it may take some longer too develop it though, it can be done… The ankle, knee and waste joints can only move so-many ways before collapsing to pressure…

If the stance is good there’s a lot of things that one can do… while in YJKYM, I will have my students push me as hard as they want, and they cannot push me from my stance, my back stays straight and my feet do not move…

If one can master his balance as well as power by standing on one leg, then through focus and agility one will easily find those collapsible points within the joints of the leg of his opponent, by keeping their opponent pre-occupied with sight, (the hands) and while the leg really starts too work on your opponents balance (collapsible points)…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

Sounds pretty impressive. I'm having a hard time visualizing what you mean when you say "two different directions" though. Most people that break a bat with a shin kick are doing so in a circular motion and following through...so I'm trying to figure out what other direction you'd be going in.

Do you happen to have any video footage of this? I would be interested in seeing it!

[k gledhill]

sticky / sticking ? splitting hairs for what ? and bats dont hit back ;)

standing on one leg is to build balance yes , nobody said anything about sticking to a leg in a formalized drill while hopping from one leg to other etc..., wedging etc..sweeping isnt 'sticking'....

:D

like I said if its what you do ..do it. I could care less , Ive been doing VT for 25 years too , so what ?:D

[Ali. R]

Sounds pretty impressive. I'm having a hard time visualizing what you mean when you say "two different directions" though. Most people that break a bat with a shin kick are doing so in a circular motion and following through...so I'm trying to figure out what other direction you'd be going in.

Do you happen to have any video footage of this? I would be interested in seeing it!


No, I never recorded it, and it’s been at least four years sents I’ve done it, almost every other day Ill still condition my shins, but that might make a good recording also, thanks for the ideal…

Ill do a circular motion just as you mentioned, then Ill disengage that same leg from the follow through and push my shin straight upward (off a slight pivot of the supporting leg) as if I’m kicking someone in the groin…

You will need three people too make this work, two if your on a lawn somewhere because the handle of the bat is pushed into the soft grass, therefore you would not need one too step on the handle for the upward vertical vector or one can use cement blocks as well…

You seemed to be genuine in your approach that could very well prompted me in making a clip, I’m not looking for validation because I’ve never gotten it here among my so called peers (validation) on anything that I’ve produces here on this forum…

I will only present the footage as a how too clip, and not a look what I can do clip, and then again as you can see Ill only tick others off by making such footage, just as always…

I’m standing to your right of this diagram…


http://detroitwingchun.com/blocks_are_turned_a_30.htm

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

No, I never recorded it, and it’s been at least four years scents I’ve done it, almost every other day Ill still condition my shins, but that might make be a good recording also, thanks for the ideal…

Ill do a circular motion just as you mentioned, then Ill disengage that same leg from the follow through and push my shin straight upward (off a slight pivot of the supporting leg) as if I’m kicking someone in the groin…

You will need three people too make this work, two if your on a lawn somewhere because the handle of the bat is pushed into the soft grass, therefore you would not need one too step on the handle for the upward vertical vector or one can use cement blocks as well…

You seemed to be genuine in your approach that could very well prompted me in making a clip, I’m not looking for validation because I’ve never gotten it here among my so called peers (validation) on anything that I’ve produces here on this forum…

I will only present the footage as a how too clip, and not a look what I can do clip, and then again as you can see Ill only tick others off by making suck footage, just as always…

I’m standing to your right of this diagram…


http://detroitwingchun.com/blocks_are_turned_a_30.htm

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

Yea...still don't get it. :confused:

People on this forum like to debate, myself included. Outlandish claims and unrealistic notions are the things that peeve me personally.

But breaking bats with shins is not uncommon...and I can appreciate the conditioning being that I practice MT as well. I've never seen anyone break two separate bats though in one kicking motion; so that's why I was curious. If you ever decide to try it again, take some footage of it! But since you're such a big guy, make sure they're big bats too....:D

Just be careful...I've just now started re-conditioning my shins from my training hiatus, realizing that bruises take a lot longer to heal now when I'm 31 than they did when I was 18. BTW...what method do you use for conditioning? Do you do the rolling pin method or do you actually smack em' with something? I do both...and try to kick really dense bags (like the bottom of a hanging bag).

[Ali. R]

I've never seen anyone break two separate bats though in one kicking motion; so that's why I was curious..


Disengage from the follow through are the words that I used, so Ill doubt that you’ll see it in one motion…

Yeah, I do get it; you probably was not around when I first came on the scene, it was told by others here that I had no knowledge of kung fu or chi sao understanding, and everything that I presented was only made up by myself and had nothing too do with wing chun…

And I was attacked (persons, family, teacher and students, as well for years), and hated by just about every member here for over 5 years based off of two gentlemen’s opinion (I only became an enemy after I stood up for myself.) in which they continue to show there own lack of understanding dealing with this art (WC)… Yeah I do understand, and wouldn’t want too open that can of worms again…

I’ve been conditioning my shins for over 25 years with heavy drumsticks and with the supporting basement poles of my homes and with my wing chun leg condition as well…


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

I've had three of Yip Man's students and a few others tell me that there was no standing on one leg circling exercise taught by YM and that it was made up by some students.

I have a Chi Geuk drill. Although its different to the Chi Guek ive seen at most other schools. Akin to leg fencing.....

My sifu learnt it from GM Ip in the 50's. He would train with Sifu Lok although not that often in front of Si Dai.

It certainly doesnt have high kicks (above waist) and its has no aspect of circling as we deal in straight lines from a triangle.

We utilse the waist, knee and in small part the ankle for generating force.

Its about redirecting kicks, recovering initiative and being able to change from one action to another with fluidity and ample force.

One example of actual use would be if i used Far Guek to block the inside of a thai kick to the upper leg. (you may not call it Far Guek but it looks similar to a MT leg block)
Then immediatly turned the waist and lowered my horse into a side kick/stamp on the knee (or thereabouts) of the opponents lead leg.

Im fairly pragmatic about its use. While the sticking aspect would be of less benifit in application (low percentage) like Chi Sao it teaches a student the relationship between action and reaction only with the legs. It has greatly improved my timing with kicks after being kicked :rolleyes: :)

DREW

[kamikaze]

I think chi geuk is a good exercise for checking and unbalancing your opponent. It also stresses the need for students condition their shins in order to really perform this exercise (thanks Ali. R). There's going to be a chance of legs colliding when fighting in-close.

[couch]

I think chi geuk is a good exercise for checking and unbalancing your opponent. It also stresses the need for students condition their shins in order to really perform this exercise (thanks Ali. R). There's going to be a chance of legs colliding when fighting in-close.

Conditioning of the legs is important as well as learning how to tense your tibialis anterior at the right time in the right conditions. (Pulling your toes towards your head to tighten the 'shin muscle').

There are lots of ways to do this: kick the wooden dummy's leg, the bottom of your heavy bag, etc.

[LoneTiger108]

Both as an old style sifu and one who had to depend on wing chun for personal survival and then later economic survival in HK- Ip Man appears to have taught different things to different folks and understandably of course for a fee. Often one private student didnt know what another was learning.That is why hearsay can be quite confusing.

Ip man himself in his younger days used his legs a lot more than he did in later years..

joy chaudhuri

Interesting point Joy, and I'd have to agree (although I have no way of 'knowing' how Ip Man practised as a child)

The other comments that interest me here are the disclaimers to circling legwork?! Huen Gerk/Toi was common in my early training, but again it was only taught to certain students (who could lift their legs!)

There are many things that Ip Man would have practised as a youngster that he may not have passed on to his students in his elder years, but he did practise 'with others' and this is where you will find varied approaches.

Most 'legwork' I have seen externally was practised within a 'Plum Flower Wooden Man' set I learnt. But these days just the term 'plum flower/blossom' in reference to WCK is controversial. I find that many people have varied interpretations, and nobody has talked my language yet! :eek:

I practsed a 'huen toi' free-standing, on one leg while the other circled around the middle arm of the Jong. Excellent for waist sinking strength and hip power imo, not to mention 'essential' for lower back alignment. I haven't seen this sort of exercise interacting with a partner for years...

[Tom Kagan]

like I said if its what you do ..do it. I could care less , Ive been doing VT for 25 years too , so what ?:D

Where did I even discuss your technique versus what I do? The Word definitions are profoundly different. This isn't splitting hairs.

25 years - I guess you're done learning, right?

Sticking –verb (used with object)

piercing or puncturing with something pointed, as a pin, dagger, or spear; stab: to stick one's finger with a needle.
killing by this means: to stick a pig.
thrusting (something pointed) in, into, through, etc.: to stick a needle into a pincushion.
...


sticky -adjective

having the property of adhering, as glue; adhesive.
covered with adhesive or viscid matter: sticky hands.
...


'Sticky' is what you don't want to have (i.e. what you alluded to by mentioning 'hand chasing'), and I agree with you.

[Ali. R]

I think chi geuk is a good exercise for checking and unbalancing your opponent. It also stresses the need for students condition their shins in order to really perform this exercise (thanks Ali. R). There's going to be a chance of legs colliding when fighting in-close.


I love too help anyone at anytime and if that’s what I’ve done, you’re welcome almost every time… :D

Take care

Ali Rahim.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . The other comments that interest me here are the disclaimers to circling legwork?! Huen Gerk/Toi was common in my early training, but again it was only taught to certain students (who could lift their legs!)...
Huen Geuk is definately a part of WC training. It's at the beggining of the TWC SLT and it's on all most lineages's Biu Jee form.

[LoneTiger108]

Huen Geuk is definately a part of WC training. It's at the beggining of the TWC SLT and it's on all most lineages's Biu Jee form.

Thanks Phil, but I think you can see that what I'm saying is that I practised this type of 'legwork' on the Wooden Man first, before I even saw the forms you mention.

Although it's not at the beginning of my SLT, nor CK, it is in my BJ.

Chi gerk, these days, is as much of a mystery as chi sau is to most. I haven't seen much evidence of it to be honest...

[Ali. R]

This is an interesting clip that I forgot I’ve posted, dealing with some kicking drills and if your balance is good then you well grain a lot of power within your kicks or leg blocks while training on one leg, as long as one can take it…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUFORS8zhO8


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

This is an interesting clip that I forgot I’ve posted, dealing with some kicking drills and if your balance is good then you well grain a lot of power within your kicks or leg blocks while training on one leg, as long as one can take it…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUFORS8zhO8


Ali Rahim.

Cool...I do the same movement on the wooden dummy!

[Liddel]

Some questions raised for me Ali when watching the clip....polite discussion bro im not nip picking :D


This is an interesting clip that I forgot I’ve posted, dealing with some kicking drills and if your balance is good then you well grain a lot of power within your kicks or leg blocks while training on one leg, as long as one can take it…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUFORS8zhO8
Ali Rahim.

Do you ever consider using the same extended hand (in contact) and a kick as a no no (especially against another VT guy) ?

One lop IMO and your off balance and crossed up with the kick loosing all force. But not so if you use different sides...

Also when Gray is using the kicks in the second part (with the young guy not you) he doesnt disrupt the opponents horse enough, meaning if his opponent had good skill he could take that extended hand and use gum Sao on the kick....and even attack with the shoulder with good timing. (some may have seen a basic use in the old WSL vid out there)

I think when we have or even create kicking drills they should complement the hand game....:rolleyes:

I know we have some differnces in our lineages so i wondered what your thoughts were ?

DREW

[Ali. R]

I use all kinds of hand and arm shapes when kicking and blocking… Its countless techniques that one can use or do when using the legs and arms simultaneously…
Drills like these are just the beginning...

You know I have all kinds of guys that come to my school that does drills with me, and when they decide too try to hit me outside of that drill; I beat the hell out of them for over 15 min… Then after, in which they are really polite and gentle, then ready and willing too receive anything that I have to give up…

Most love too turn drills into a fight way before they’re understood because of their lack of understanding they have no choice but too deviate and when one can out understand the other within the drill, they are quick too say lets take it to another level of force, because some are to dumb to keep from deviating from their lack of understanding (by choice)…

It’s just a drill, and when they deviate from the drill they will not develop true balance and power… Concerning Chris and the other students doing the drill, well they are brand new to it, as you can see I am not…

And everything that I mention will ring true if one truly has perseverance, drive, and the will too ponder the understanding of that particular drill…


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

I dont know if you get my point.

Its not the hand shapes with kicks i have an issue with, i use Tan Bong Guarn etc also..... its the potential for a straight kick getting stuffed when you use a hand and kick on the same side :rolleyes:

We do drills with the hands where we try to avoid situations where we help/assist our opponent in crossing our arms up right ? most VT lineages do...we want to avoid it ourselves and do it to our opponents though....

Which is why i asked about your clip. I see alot of leg training where habbit VT responses should be able to stuff leg kicks given with the same side as a hand in contact.

I realise there are other factors at work...
- the other guys in the clip are new
- Its just a drill for kicking only

But i stand by my call -


I think when we have or even create kicking drills they should complement the hand game....

If you were to Tan my punch and try to kick me using your leg on the same side (like in the clip) my immediate habbit reaction is to lop or pull down your Tan....disrupting your balance, making your kick loose all force and crossing your body up giving me timing for my own attack....in most cases at my training the younger guys end up having thier hands touch thier leg as i Lop almost falling over foward.

So your not concerned about this at all, or just not for isolated drills like we see here ?

Perhaps im alone in this POV, im just curious what others think, were all entitled to our opinions :)

DREW

[Ali. R]

And that’s a big, if you can stop or pull me before my kick reaches you deal…

And I thought you were not nick picking. If I kick with the same leg that I punch with then I’m sure you would or could pull me off balance, but if I kick with the opposite leg, then you could not pull me off balance…

Anyone can just give this a try… When one punches with the opposite hand and leg the body does not work as a turn stop, therefore you can fairly maintain your balance, and that is the first rule of kicking in wing chun for just about every other lineage…

It’s very obvious that you are not in the know about kicking and striking simultaneously… I will make a clip too show you what’s going on, and it’s no way that I will get pull off balance NO MATTER HOW HARD ONE PULLS… The proof is there, and I’m sure there will be a switch some how when I show you… This is all that Ill say about this matter… And I thought you were not nick picking… LOL… LOL… Remember too give it a try, but I’m sure it wont work for you some how… Better yet, make a clip before mine, give me video clip proof of your claim...

And to all, please try what I’ve said here first, before making your opinion…

When pulling the blocking hand when one kicks (same side), you will only pull the kick into you… When pulling the punching hand when one kicks (same side), you will pull him off balance… This is common knowledge concerning wing chun kicking…

Make arm contact just as I did on the clip, one will not lose his or her balance by pulling the blocking hand, but only by pulling the punching hand when kicking (same side)… LOL

Thank you,


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

I teach to simply maintain structure by not leaning forwards as the kicks are thrown, doesn't matter about the arm then ;). This involves hip positions etc...

If you try to pull the arm of a person keeping shoulders back into their structure and hips aligned ,as they kick, you can pull them, but your still kicked or countered or whatever comes next because they don't fall forwards losing the attacking ability , If they simply drop the lead kick while keeping structure they can keep kicking you ;) good for them bad for you .


I use the lop pull to unbalance simply to correct the structure/alignment mistake. If they do lean forward I lop'em too. But the idea of grabbing hands to block kicks is like chasing arms again. GET IN and dont offer arms to a person who will instinctively grab to control or maintain balance, remove the platform for force or stability , don't give it to them ; )

If people grab the lead arm [common in real fights ime] use the bil gee elbow bowing down to recover the grabbed wrist / arms ability to keep striking, simply raise the elbow as bil gee and drop it over the guys forearm while going at him from the flank, if he doesnt let go he's /she is in a painful wrist lock to submission, keep applying until his elbow hits the ground , Or recover the 2 free striking hands and kicks...attack as defense.

n.b. some in Chi- Na use a covering hand to apply to the grabbing hand on your wrist as part the elbow recovery from bil gee , this is ok for 'whatever thinking' but remember the primary idea is to be hitting with one lead[ man sao] one rear[ vu-sao] dont engage in their idea of using 2 hands to fight one ..its bil gee thinking , reserved for this situation. So asap you recover the grabbed wrist because thy had to let go strike again trap to strike ...

The reverse is also possible if someone attempts to wrist lock you if your in a bong sao, and they grab the hand to apply pressure to the wrist, simply do a lop sao turning the way your elbow will drop down to tanstriking in etc.. I think everyone knows that one ?

[Liddel]

And that’s a big, if you can stop or pull me before my kick reaches you deal…

And thats why i posted with the title "its a matter of timing...but" :rolleyes:



And I thought you were not nick picking.

Im not, im asking a question im interested in. Dont like it ? dont answer !
I understand your defencive attitude given this forums track record LOL

I was fairly humble in my approach dude...


Perhaps im alone in this POV, im just curious what others think, were all entitled to our opinions



When one punches with the opposite hand and leg the body does not work as a turn stop, therefore you can fairly maintain your balance, and that is the first rule of kicking in wing chun for just about every other lineage…

Back the train up.... I never mentioned punching and kicking at the same time ive only ever mentioned blocking actions at this point in the conversation.



It’s very obvious that you are not in the know about kicking and striking simultaneously…

Yawn. Its clear i do have my own way and am interested in finding out about others POV. Whats obvious is ive barked up the wrong tree LOL



I will make a clip too show you what’s going on, and it’s no way that I will get pull off balance NO MATTER HOW HARD ONE PULLS…

A sudden jolt of force from my VT and you will be affected....how much is up for debate and can only be resolved by sparring together....
Perhaps youll waste me...or perhaps youll understand what im on about :rolleyes:



When pulling the blocking hand when one kicks (same side), you will only pull the kick into you…

Not so for the front kick in the clip im addressing.

if im skilled, ill pull you off balance and have my fist in your face while getting 'touched' by your kick...but i guess i have no clue about VT...

Pulling is not the best word for it...it denotes towards myself, but in fact with my VT when i lop or divert forces with my blocking tools its using gravity and the water theory of VT...its downwards more than fowards and away from my body(center) again its a jolt not an overcommmited uneconomic tug, cause im not a begginer...i only need inches - basic VT bro :cool: :o

IMO You think from a POV thats not fair and reasonable, you think the great Ali vs some student of yours or someone of lesser skill...

Im thinking of someone of equal or more skill than me when training and that changes the game somewhat IME.


But the idea of grabbing hands to block kicks is like chasing arms again.

I agree. But the instance im addressing has your arms already in contact, as you've blocked a coming punch.... and now you want to kick in reaction.

Im only talking about the front kick here....

In the clip we see Ali using Tan to block an attack, sweet.... then he's applying a front kick to the waist area.

My point is hes more protected if he kicks with the opposite leg than the Tan side, where as if he kicks with the same side as the Tan arm hes open to getting crossed up. Not certain, nothings 100% but more open.

Like i said we (well some) try to avoid situations where we get crossed hands dont we....why a different approach to hands and feet in contact ?

I dont find it far fetched at all, given similar techs are used with the hands to stuff follow up punches from opponents....why not the front kick...

The range is there, the contact is there, there is enough timing.....

Im ok if you dont agree, my purpose was to get others opinions so that answers my question.
Cheers :)

DREW

[Ali. R]

I’m still waiting for more opinions… Hush now what’s that sound (sounds like crickets to me), everybody look what’s going down…

I like the fact that you put my name next to the word great, I must be doing something right… In case you didn’t know, I’m just an average everyday person just like anyone else…

Hey man, I’m just fu*king with you. :D NOT

Ali Rahim.

[couch]

My point is hes more protected if he kicks with the opposite leg than the Tan side, where as if he kicks with the same side as the Tan arm hes open to getting crossed up. Not certain, nothings 100% but more open.

DREW

I've never thought about this and appreciate your insight. I'm going to play around with the energy of this when I'm tossed around and see what comes of it.

Thanks Drew,
Kenton

[SAAMAG]

Interesting conversation has developed.

I've always thought of the hands and feet (in wing chun) as being separate entities and while each can coordinate with the other to achieve a goal they can also do achieve different goals simultaneously as well. The rule of thumb is to let the opponent determine what is necessary...and not preemptively choose a combination of movements.

I use lap sao alot when I use jing geuk and I don't care particularly which stance I'm in relative to the hand movement. It's whatever is the closest foot is to the closest target. I can use tan as well...but it's just not commonly done with me as like to control the body when I'm kicking wing chun style.

So say it's a right hand side tan / lap form, leg that will kick will usually be the right leg as well simply due to the mechanics of the lap sao. Again I've never really used a wing chun front kick without controlling the body...so it's weird to me to use a jing gurk with a tan sao "block" and nothing more.

I'll play around with it as well tonight at my MT gym (it's the only place where I can find guys who aren't afraid to hit each other...)

[k gledhill]

lop saoing is reserved for turning an opponent ..
jut sao is the primary tool when fighting the flanks , because it doesn't take us off line to our striking/deflecting path ...jut feed's back into the strike of the partnership to recover the sequence/flow in the direction of the attack...the whole lop idea is misused by many.
Ive used lop in fights and if I missed the hand I would chase 'space' a jut if it misses simple fires on the line miss or jut .

[Graychuan]

Interesting conversation has developed.

I've always thought of the hands and feet (in wing chun) as being separate entities and while each can coordinate with the other to achieve a goal they can also do achieve different goals simultaneously as well. The rule of thumb is to let the opponent determine what is necessary...and not preemptively choose a combination of movements.....



THIS CLIP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_5-ZXUjubo) here is a few months later than the first but it has some of the hands/feet drills we do.
:D

[SAAMAG]

lop saoing is reserved for turning an opponent ..
jut sao is the primary tool when fighting the flanks , because it doesn't take us off line to our striking/deflecting path ...jut feed's back into the strike of the partnership to recover the sequence/flow in the direction of the attack...the whole lop idea is misused by many.
Ive used lop in fights and if I missed the hand I would chase 'space' a jut if it misses simple fires on the line miss or jut .

I'm not sure if you're implying something with your response in my use of lop sao or if you're making a general observation about people's use of it. Either way, in that regard I don't think there is a way to "misuse" it. You use it, and it will either put you in a more advantageous position, or a less advantageous position. If it's the latter, you know not to use it like that again against that opponent.

For my use of lop sao, I want to turn the opponent when I kick them to hit the side of the knee/leg and to allow me to take the outside gate. I don't typically just kick straight on at close range, as that increases the risks of being dropped while on one leg (At least while fighting people that like to try and take me down...I suppose against another wing chun guy it would be different).

[SAAMAG]

THIS CLIP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_5-ZXUjubo) here is a few months later than the first but it has some of the hands/feet drills we do.
:D

At about 1:50 I started seeing pretty much what I'm talking about...that's a pretty common and accepted method of employing the jing gurk. I liked the way your intent was there to control the leading arm while at the same time kicking.

I like the Spontaneity! Now if you want to try something more fun and more challenging...do the same drill with someone who attacks any way they choose (I.E. not using chung kuen as the only punching method). Let them punch any way they want, kick any way they want, let them try to grap you, etc. It's harder to keep "the flow" when they start doing clinching and grappling, but with the punches and kicks as long as your partner can keep up it's a good workout and helps to improve synaptic reaction time to the visual cues presented.

OH...I forgot to mention that eventually the person gets to wear gloves and actually gets to hit you at speed. Wear your mouthpiece!

[Ali. R]

I don't typically just kick straight on at close range, as that increases the risks of being dropped while on one leg (At least while fighting people that like to try and take me down...I suppose against another wing chun guy it would be different).

It’s those who can and those who cant, and that’s a fact …

When attacking close up; one should try to start off with the hands, which pre-occupies your opponents thoughts, then the feet follows the hands after your opponents first block or after the first contact is made…

When under attack; then one chooses to kick (up close); one should stop the strikes first, or simultaneously strike and kick their opponent…

It wont make a difference in which system one is fighting, at least not with me or many other wing chun practitioners out there unless, if they do as you say; take it too a another level way before the first one is understood well enough, insubordination through deviation for self gratification… I’m sure he wouldn’t take that route…


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

It’s those who can and those who cant, and that’s a fact …

When attacking close up; one should try to start off with the hands, which pre-occupies your opponents thoughts, then the feet follows the hands after your opponents first block or after the first contact is made…

When under attack; then one chooses to kick (up close); one should stop the strikes first, or simultaneously strike and kick their opponent…

It wont make a difference what system one is fighting, at least not with me or many other wing chun practitioners out there unless, they do as you say; take it too a another level way before the first one is understood well enough, insubordination through deviation for self gratification… I’m sure he wouldn’t take that route…


Ali Rahim.

Ali...I understand what you're saying with preoccupying the upper gates before going low, and it's a solid theory that I agree with.

Now If I understand you correctly on the middle part of that...your opinion is that it doesn't make a difference which techniques are given to you or your students? That's not entirely true of most people...but you seem to think otherwise...fair enough.

But the latter part puzzles me..."take it to another level before it's understood"? That's a bit contradicting of your first statement that you and your boys can handle any attack in that drill. If the skill level is such that one doesn't even need to bother practicing defending against various attacks, how could one not understand what they're doing? Seems odd to me.

And if you think that it's "insubordination through deviation for self gratification" to change up your drills and find ways to vary your training...then it's not his "self gratification" that needs to be worried about...it's yours.

Personally, I always try to have my students progress when they're ready...and I think that Greychuan would do just fine with a little more variety in the attacks presented to him. It's not like I'm telling him to have someone go balls to the walls with him...just giving him an IDEA to work with to make his training more fun and possibly more productive.

OH...and one last thing....WTF does "It’s those who can and those who cant, and that’s a fact" mean in relation to my post? What exactly are you trying to say there?

[Liddel]

I've never thought about this and appreciate your insight. I'm going to play around with the energy of this when I'm tossed around and see what comes of it.
Thanks Drew,
Kenton

This is just how ive been taught. I use the front kick mainly when in contact, like Ali has mentioned its after ive controlled (in some way) the upper body of the opponent.

Either turning them- crossing thier hands- disrupting thier balance etc
This allows you 'safe timing' to launch a straight kick at such close range.

As an example or reference - if you have Ip Mans wooden dummy book anyone can start to check out the combonations of hands and kicks in play during the form.

IME you'll find more often than not that opposite hands are used when he has a straight kick out. Of course there are exceptions to the rule so a few kicking actions within the form are using opposite hands but they are in the minority and are slightly different in application and situation based on the way i was taught.

Aside from avoiding getting crossed up with the hand and kick or just loosing force in the kick....

One can also think about structure with relation to a block and a kick.
Where is the support and how effective is it ?

If you kick with the opposite leg as say a Tan you've given to block a straight punch...your supporting leg is right under your Tan and the kick is free to issue energy supported by body movement of turning towards the punch as most do with Tan and also the knee and waist etc. The force of your turing with the Tan lends itself to the direction of force you want to give in the kick on the opposite site. :rolleyes:

However if your kicking with the same side the Tan doesnt have as much support because the supporting leg is a further distance away from where the force is on your bridge (its not directly under)
Also you want to turn your Tan with the body but the body must remain facing foward to give the kick...the forces can contradict each other in terms of direction etc. Therefore people seem to face foward with more limited body movement whilst trying to kick at the same time... and IMO no horse no kung fu...no or little body movement = weak(er) kicks.

So the block adversely affects the kicking power IME.

It kinda makes sence...and works for me. Not all the time, nothings 100% but its worth investigating as i found it very useful. :o

DREW

[couch]

It kinda makes sense...and works for me. Not all the time, nothings 100% but its worth investigating as i found it very useful. :o

DREW

Just ran through the dummy form with this new insight and you are correct. When I'm front-facing, it's always opposite arm/leg.

If I'm off-centred, it can be the same side arm/leg (the applications I'm aware of).

Very cool. Much appreciated. I love this system.

Best,
Kenton

[k gledhill]

I'm not sure if you're implying something with your response in my use of lop sao or if you're making a general observation about people's use of it. Either way, in that regard I don't think there is a way to "misuse" it. You use it, and it will either put you in a more advantageous position, or a less advantageous position. If it's the latter, you know not to use it like that again against that opponent.

For my use of lop sao, I want to turn the opponent when I kick them to hit the side of the knee/leg and to allow me to take the outside gate. I don't typically just kick straight on at close range, as that increases the risks of being dropped while on one leg (At least while fighting people that like to try and take me down...I suppose against another wing chun guy it would be different).


it is in bil gee for a reason...?

jut sao is in slt for a reason...?

one backs up the primary idea of fighting ...whats that ?

one doesnt but is used to recover the 1st idea ..confused ?

who cares ! just grab anyting and do what you want :D

if you care you will use one because it is superior to the other

one teaches you to grab as last resort or because you need to recover a situation that stops you from using the hand in that time you grab.

grabbing like a lop will make you move laterally across your strike line

jut will move back and forth along the line ...so if you miss the intended grab ? % again
were will your arm go ?
If you miss with a lop sao , were will your arm go ?

You can use both, but do you know why you use one before the other ?

do you train to lop from man sao in bong/mansao drills or jut ?

if I suddenly pulled my arm away from the bong you put up as you went to grab it ...?
were would your arm end up as you missed ? why would I have the advantage over you in that split second ?

?

one perpetuates the primary 'attack as defense' idea, one is used when things go wrong...to go back to the simple idea.

one follows the idea , one breaks the ideas thinking .

nothing personal, you can do what the hell you need to do. My response is to simply make you question your/everyones use.

to improve against other fighters is our goal. using lop always will not improve your fighting ability.
it will slow you down.

[SAAMAG]

Dude...they gave me a headache.

[Liddel]

Just ran through the dummy form with this new insight and you are correct. When I'm front-facing, it's always opposite arm/leg.

If I'm off-centred, it can be the same side arm/leg (the applications I'm aware of).

Very cool. Much appreciated. I love this system.

Best,
Kenton

Thats cool bro. :D

DREW

[bennyvt]

im a WSL lineage student and I have learned Chi gerk. More using either to attack as defence and attack and block at the same time. I think its alot like double dan chi. Taught as a drill to fix things but unless you had to teach or were bad at it then you didnt get shown, also like rolling on the outside and partner on inside, if you had bad habits you had to do tan and bong or two fuk sao's. Can also be usefull when stepping at angles so you can't predict which side he will step