Oyama defeated by Tai Chi Master?

[HardWork8]

This link has been around for a few years now and quotes Mas. Oyama's autobiography where the founder of the Kyokushinkai style of karate apparently claims that he lost a fight to an elderly tai chi master.

What I would like to know is if anybody here can verify this story. The only autobiography of Oyama that I know of is in Japanese. Anyway, here is the link:

www.crane.50megs.com/index6j.htm

[SAAMAG]

:rolleyes:

[HardWork8]

:rolleyes:

Just to clarify.:rolleyes:

I just wanted to see if this literature is included in any so called "autobiography" credited to Masutatsu Oyama.

[SAAMAG]

Sorry, that was rude wasn't it?

I doubt this story is true coming from this guy. It could be true to an extent, but c'mon, he had tears of joy running down his face?! Feeble old man...etc etc...?

Anything passed on by word of mouth is 99% inflated or blatently wrong, even moreso as time passes. Anything written down in History books is only a one sided account written by those in power at the time. Unless there's unrefutable evidence, it's probably B.S. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. If it's a cliche story base with inserted characters, than you know it's probably not true.

Would be nice though, wouldn't it?

[HardWork8]

Sorry, that was rude wasn't it?

It was more ignorant than rude, but apology accepted.


I doubt this story is true coming from this guy. It could be true to an extent, but c'mon, he had tears of joy running down his face?! Feeble old man...etc etc...?

The tears of joy are irrelevant if the story is false or true.


Anything passed on by word of mouth is 99% inflated or blatently wrong, even moreso as time passes.
The point is that the author quotes Oyama's autobiography and not word of mouth.


Anything written down in History books is only a one sided account written by those in power at the time.

Except in this case the "history book" is supposedly written by the defeated party, Mas. Oyama. That is why I wanted to see wether someone could clarify this whole thing.


Unless there's unrefutable evidence, it's probably B.S.

Again, if the losing party is telling the story, then that would point to the evidence, at least to some extent.


If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Wether this story is too good to be true will depend on who is reading it. It may not be story that is too good to be true if the reader is a none kung fu person.


If it's a cliche story base with inserted characters, than you know it's probably not true.

Again, we don't know that yet. The main character seems to have been a real one, Masutatsu Oyama and the story is apparently based on his autobiography.


Would be nice though, wouldn't it?

Not for karate men nor a pseudo kung fu men who only ridicule the internal aspects of TCMAs.

To conclude, I just wanted to see the source of that story. Looking at the rest of the site, as I am sure you would agree, most of the content seems to be verifiable.

I know for a fact that there is an autobiography of Oyama in Japanese. The article in the site does refer to Oyama's autobiography.

It would be interesting to see if this "incident" is included in Oyama's Japanese autobiography, or if we could get another solid source of reference for it.

[SAAMAG]

Yep...a number of sources would be the only way to go...but since it seems there was only Chen, and Oyama, and one unnamed party there, it's highly unlikely.

Are you even sure that Oyama even wrote this autobiography? Is the auther even sure?

Either way...it's good reading if nothing else.

[HardWork8]

Are you even sure that Oyama even wrote this autobiography? Is the auther even sure?

I remember a long time ago I came across a Kyokushinkai site where it listed books authored by Oyama. At the time I was searching for more sources of information on his life and I remember being disappointed when I realized that his autobiography was in Japanese.

[sihing]

There's also the story out there of William Cheung from TWC facing off with Oyama, I remember him mentioning it when he was here in TBay while on his Canadian Tour. Victor P may have more details about it as he mentioned it once in a thread awhile back. I don't remember the details but apparently it ended up a draw.

James

[HardWork8]

There's also the story out there of William Cheung from TWC facing off with Oyama, I remember him mentioning it when he was here in TBay while on his Canadian Tour. Victor P may have more details about it as he mentioned it once in a thread awhile back. I don't remember the details but apparently it ended up a draw.

James

Thanks for that. It is the first time I hear about this.
This is another story to look into, I suppose. I wonder if any interviewer has ever asked William Cheung to elaborate on the story or is there anyone who can shine more light on Cheung's claim.

[Nick Forrer]

There's also the story out there of William Cheung from TWC facing off with Oyama, I remember him mentioning it when he was here in TBay while on his Canadian Tour. Victor P may have more details about it as he mentioned it once in a thread awhile back. I don't remember the details but apparently it ended up a draw.

James


William Cheung tells some tall stories. I have a video of a seminar he did in the UK about 10 years ago where he claims in response to a question from Brian Desir to have beaten three of the Gracies top black belts by using gum sau when they tried to take him down and then chain punching them in the head:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

I doubt this story is true coming from this guy. It could be true to an extent, but c'mon, he had tears of joy running down his face?! Feeble old man...etc etc...?



Yeah, that little story was a serious load.

[cjurakpt]

and the quote on that site about "taiji being for supermen" was from a book entitled "Moving Zen", written by a Shotokan practitioner named C.W. Nicol, a Canadian ex-pat living in Japan back in the '60's, whose entire text reads like the mooings of a love-sick cow staring into a tractor's headlights in regard to his swallowing the whole TMA schtick hook, line and sinker...

[anerlich]

There's also the story out there of William Cheung from TWC facing off with Oyama, I remember him mentioning it when he was here in TBay while on his Canadian Tour. Victor P may have more details about it as he mentioned it once in a thread awhile back. I don't remember the details but apparently it ended up a draw.

I think this got started when Sensei Oyama was once quoted in a mag article as saying Bruce Lee was hyped beyond all reason and that Sonny Chiba was much stronger.

GM Cheung replied (in another magazine) that that was crap and he (Cheung) would be prepared to prove it to him (Oyama) in a match - just rock up at my school LOL.

I doubt they ever faced off - in any case Oyama was getting fairly old by then. About as conclusive and intelligent as Cheung/Boztepe if it ever happened. I'm sure Rick Spain, my instructor, would have known about it and mentioned it if it ever happened.

One of my WC training buds is married to a 4-time Aussie Kyokushin champ and occasionally competes in their comps. My own WC instructor trains regularly with a Kyokushin school and plans to grade to black belt soon, just as a growth experience. You don't need to beat 'em. You can make friends with 'em. Same with the UFC MMA types some of you guys seem to have fixations with. Drop the ego, go do a few classes. Worst thing could happen is you learn something. Might even be a valuable experience.

IMO a lot a straw grasping in this thread and the other about MT guys doing WC. There might be some secret WC school somewhere whose practitioners can vanquish every style on the planet, but I doubt it. Claims beg the question of proof.

As Rene Richie's sifu said once, and I paraphrase, "if all this internal KF stuff were true, China would win every medal in every Olympics."

[anerlich]

taiji being for supermen

Maybe it lives up to the hype ... if you have super powers, that is.

[cjurakpt]

As Rene Richie's sifu said once, and I paraphrase, "if all this internal KF stuff were true, China would win every medal in every Olympics."
well, by that logic, Betamax would have won out over VHS...;):p

[HardWork8]

I think this got started when Sensei Oyama was once quoted in a mag article as saying Bruce Lee was hyped beyond all reason and that Sonny Chiba was much stronger.

I believe that I have a copy of that magazine somewhere. Oyama referred to Bruce Lee as "monkey", if memory serves me right and did indeed say that Sony Chiba was better.


GM Cheung replied (in another magazine) that that was crap and he (Cheung) would be prepared to prove it to him (Oyama) in a match - just rock up at my school LOL.

Ah, those publicity and marketing "games" are always so entertaining.


As Rene Richie's sifu said once, and I paraphrase, "if all this internal KF stuff were true, China would win every medal in every Olympics."

As if China doesn't win enough medals already.:p

[anerlich]

William Cheung tells some tall stories.

He's up there with the best in that regard. Not that he's Robinson Crusoe, either.


I have a video of a seminar he did in the UK about 10 years ago where he claims in response to a question from Brian Desir to have beaten three of the Gracies top black belts by using gum sau when they tried to take him down and then chain punching them in the head

LOL, who were these black belts and where was this challenge held?

A respected local MMA coach showed me how keeping the head away with one hand (gum sao) and punching with the other can be a legitimate tactic against someone trying a lowerr body shoot, provided you couple it with good evasive footwork and have a decent sprawl to back it up. Most shoot takedowns require you to get your head somewhere on the other guys anatomy to be effective (an ankle pick might be an exception).

Most of the photo and video demos are done with opponents who "shoot" bent at the waist, torso horizontal, head down, arms out zombie style. The gum sao chain punch might work against this, but not a proper double leg shoot. It also assumes that that's the only style of takedown you need to worry about, and that there aren't ways to set up the takedown which don't expose the head to strikes.

I did attend a seminar with GM Cheung in the early nineties where he showed tihs defense, and also a style of sprawl combined with a bodylock which he claimed would smother a double leg shoot. This would have worked great until he met someone who knew how to do a sitout, the basic wrestling defense designed for just that situation.

In defense of GM Cheung, by all accounts from people who knew him the in early days in Australia and have no reason to lie (having spoken to me at length about his weaknesses as well as his strengths), he did take on plenty of challengers, including one in which he beat a karate 4th dan blindfolded (and another wher a second karate guy beat him because his ego told him incorrectly he didn't need to prepare).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Was Oyama defeated by a Taiji expert?
Yes, he had profound respect for taiji.
of course defeat is subjective.
It wasn't a fight.

As for Cheung, if he had challenged Oyama and Oyama was too old, he would have fought a senior student, I know a few that it could have been.
I don't think it happened.

[Nick Forrer]

LOL, who were these black belts and where was this challenge held?
).

He neglects to mention, although since it never happened in the first place its kind of academic:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

and the quote on that site about "taiji being for supermen" was from a book entitled "Moving Zen", written by a Shotokan practitioner named C.W. Nicol, a Canadian ex-pat living in Japan back in the '60's, whose entire text reads like the mooings of a love-sick cow staring into a tractor's headlights in regard to his swallowing the whole TMA schtick hook, line and sinker...

I liked his book "Harpoon" though.

[Henry123]

I wouldnt say impossible. :confused:
Tai chi does have a short range fighting advantage.

[HardWork8]

I wouldnt say impossible. :confused:

Definitely not impossible. Tai chi is in my opinion one of the most powerful martial arts around, that is, IF one manages to find a real master to teach him, not forgetting that the student has to be dedicated and patient to get the long term results that this art can give.


Tai chi does have a short range fighting advantage.

Probably a few other advantages too.

And IF indeed this incident happened, I would gather mainly from the way it was described by Oyama himself, that just as well it wasn't a real fight.;)

[Phil Redmond]

William Cheung tells some tall stories. I have a video of a seminar he did in the UK about 10 years ago where he claims in response to a question from Brian Desir to have beaten three of the Gracies top black belts by using gum sau when they tried to take him down and then chain punching them in the head:rolleyes:
While at dinner last night Sifu (Cheung), and the students who attended the Sunday seminar were talking about fighting. During the conversation one of the guys mentioned an incident at a seminar where there were two GJJ BB people who were at the seminar. They brought up the subject of takedowns during that seminar.From what was said at the table one of the Gracie guys tried a takedown on Wm.Cheung but was palmed on the side of the head after Cheung side stepped using a gum sao. Two other people who attended that seminar said they saw it as well. Remember, I wasn't there so I'm only repeating what I heard. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

While at dinner last night Sifu (Cheung), and the students who attended the Sunday seminar were talking about fighting. During the conversation one of the guys mentioned an incident at a seminar where there were two GJJ BB people who were at the seminar. They brought up the subject of takedowns during that seminar.From what was said at the table one of the Gracie guys tried a takedown on Wm.Cheung but was palmed on the side of the head after Cheung side stepped using a gum sao. Two other people who attended that seminar said they saw it as well. Remember, I wasn't there so I'm only repeating what I heard. ;)

Yeah, but was his elbow on the correct angle when he did the gum sao?

[Phil Redmond]

Yeah, but was his elbow on the correct angle when he did the gum sao?
I'm not sure if he had a micrometer on him at the time . . . lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not sure if he had a micrometer on him at the time . . . lol

Hmmm, some master, doesn't even carry a micrometer, probably doesn't use a protractor either.
Lack of chi.