This man has wing chun skills

[nelsonmarcelino]

Great Chi Sao clips:

tan, huen sao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onA-Jv8Ft9E

chum kiu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpQrIuwxwo

bon sao discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFuqC6CTKV8

lop-sao position and gaining the line:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koR_4Eq0DcQ


:D

[Graychuan]

Yup, That brotha is alright. Where is he? London?

[jooerduo]

yeah, he's pretty good

see his angles? good wing chun is about knowing where the angles are and how to use them

[LoneTiger108]

Yup, That brotha is alright. Where is he? London?

This is Michael Louison Sifu. He also has his own website here; http://www.wingchunart.co.uk/

Us London lads eh?!! I've heard very good things about Louison Sifu...

[Graychuan]

This is Michael Louison Sifu. He also has his own website here; http://www.wingchunart.co.uk/

Us London lads eh?!! I've heard very good things about Louison Sifu...

Thank you very much for this!

[t_niehoff]

yeah, he's pretty good

see his angles? good wing chun is about knowing where the angles are and how to use them


You can't tell how good anyone's WCK is by their forms or their chi sao. None of that reflects (or even develops) realistic WCK (fighting) skills. Have him spar with some good muay thai or MMA fighters and then you'll see what he can really do or not do. WCK is fighting. If you don't see fighting, then you aren't seeing WCK.

[k gledhill]

doesnt matter what you see or think your seeing ...all that matters is what your developing doing this drill...? is your energy at your wrists or your elbows ?

wrists or elbows ? do you seek contact with your wrists ? searching for a place to set up your chi ? :D

[guy b.]

Terrence is correct, the demo of chi sau doesn't show how good he is at fighting. This is why there are lots of demos of chi sau but almost none of fighting. Simple really.

K gledhill, elbows/wrists is just speculation until someone does something with it

[Graychuan]

You can't tell how good anyone's WCK is by their forms or their chi sao.

...:confused:



None of that reflects (or even develops) realistic WCK (fighting) skills.

...so do you train chi sao at all in your Wing Chun...if so then why?


Have him spar with some good muay thai or MMA fighters and then you'll see what he can really do or not do.

...This is getting very old. especially considering we havent seen anything of what you can do or not do. Im not even sure if you even practice martial arts, T.


WCK is fighting. If you don't see fighting, then you aren't seeing WCK.

....Yaaawwwnnnn!:rolleyes:

[Ali. R]

Lets face it Nelson, you put this guys clip in the wrong place or forum, and they are simply not ready for it, especially here in the U.S… See he has a problem, and it’s the same problem that stopped many people like him from being successful within there own right…

History will show that Europe has always accepted those of great talent, no matter what walks of life they’re from (just people)… See in most cases, not saying that this is one; the treatment that most talented people get (that’s like the talented sifu on the clip) is more or less a human problem…

But as martial artists, I’m sure we all can see the truth… There are many different system of wing chun, and it seem here that we are all beginning too accepted their existence, and I’m not saying that this is the case here; but if we can do that with wing chun, why cant we have the same tolerance with human existence?

That’s a good one Nelson, and I know how you think… :D


Ali Rahim.

[couch]

You can't tell how good anyone's WCK is by their forms or their chi sao. None of that reflects (or even develops) realistic WCK (fighting) skills. Have him spar with some good muay thai or MMA fighters and then you'll see what he can really do or not do. WCK is fighting. If you don't see fighting, then you aren't seeing WCK.

I guess I would say this then:
I enjoyed watching his Chi Sau. I think he has good hands in his Chi Sau / good Chi Sau skills.

I haven't seen him fight, so I don't know his fighting ability.

Cool? :cool:

[Almost A Ghost]

Some very cool and eye opening clips. Thanks for posting!

[t_niehoff]

Greychaun,

I no longer do chi sao just like I no longer ride my bike with the training wheels on or recite my multiplication tables. I do, however, wonder about people who do continue to do these things.

Chi sao is nothing more than a learning platform for the various contact movements of WCK. You can't develop realistic (fighting) skills via chi sao, only via fighting/sparring (realistic training). Once you've learned the movement and can perform it in the unrealistic, artificial exercise that is chi sao, it is time to move on. To stay there, to continue doing chi sao, is to stop your growth in terms of developing fighitng skills. In fact, my view is that chi sao isn't even a very good learning platform.

Of course, don't take my word for it, just go to a good muay thai or MMA school, and see if you can do in fighting those things you can do so well in chi sao. You'll see. As guyb pointed out, we never see that posted on youtube. And for a very good reason.

The goal of martial art training is to develop fighting skills, not artificial, unrealistic drill skills. You don't judge how good a boxer is except through his performance boxing or a wrestler except through his performance wrestling. The only way to see skill, to see performance ability, is by and through performance. In the martial arts, that performance is fighting. If you can't do it in fighting, you have no skill.

You haven't seen me "in action" because you haven't come to see me. If you are interested, pay me a visit. Or, make it easier on yourself and go to a good MMA or MT school and see. Either way, you'll get the same experience.

[WaveWingChun]

You can't tell how good anyone's WCK is by their forms or their chi sao. None of that reflects (or even develops) realistic WCK (fighting) skills. Have him spar with some good muay thai or MMA fighters and then you'll see what he can really do or not do. WCK is fighting. If you don't see fighting, then you aren't seeing WCK.

I'm sorry, but this really doesn't make sense to me. How does training in the forms and doing chi sao (basically learning Wing Chun) not develop Wing Chun fighting skill? What is the point of learning the form then? The reason you learn the forms really well is so that they hold up under pressure when you really need them. The same reason a basketball player will practice free throw shooting with nobody else in the gym. Now maybe you're right and some guy with great forms will freeze or let it all go down the drain in a fight. Who knows? But I don't see how you can say that the forms don't develop Wing Chun skill. Keep in mind that a lot of people train in Martial Arts without actually wanting to fight. That doesn't mean they have no skill. I think people are a little hung up on fighting and competition. Can't we just focus on the art? Maybe a forum is the wrong place to try and do that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to the free throw analogy, Shaq was a great free throw shooter in the gym, doing the drills and we all saw how he was during the game.
Magic Johnson and Larry Bird ( to name just two), had excellent % in both drills AND game time.
The difference?
During the drills MJ and LB did them as if they were in a game.

[WaveWingChun]

In regards to the free throw analogy, Shaq was a great free throw shooter in the gym, doing the drills and we all saw how he was during the game.
Magic Johnson and Larry Bird ( to name just two), had excellent % in both drills AND game time.
The difference?
During the drills MJ and LB did them as if they were in a game.

First off, I think you're wrong about Shaq. He is horrible all around in free throw shooting. That's why he made excuses like "my hands are too big." However, even if he shot 100% in the gym, the exception does not prove the rule. Larry Bird and Magic would not have been so competent during the game if they didn't drill out of the game. Sure there are going to be people who can't take practice and translate it to real time. However, there is no way you can do real time without the practice, unless you are a genius like John McEnroe.

[sanjuro_ronin]

First off, I think you're wrong about Shaq. He is horrible all around in free throw shooting. That's why he made excuses like "my hands are too big." However, even if he shot 100% in the gym, the exception does not prove the rule. Larry Bird and Magic would not have been so competent during the game if they didn't drill out of the game. Sure there are going to be people who can't take practice and translate it to real time. However, there is no way you can do real time without the practice, unless you are a genius like John McEnroe.

I think you missed my point.

[WaveWingChun]

I think you missed my point.

Your point, I believe, is that Magic practiced like it was a game. So therefore, sparring as opposed to drills is important. Is that right? I would agree with that to a certain extent. However, I don't think there is anyway, unless Magic has 50 thousand people on the payroll to boo him during free throw practice, to duplicate a real time situation. Sparring is obviously a lot closer to a real fight. My point is that it is necessary to drill and practice without pressure so that you can build a foundation for success when there is pressure. My other point was that drills and chi sao build your Wing Chun skill. Just because it's not done in an actual fight doesn't mean the skill isn't there.

[k gledhill]

Terrence is correct, the demo of chi sau doesn't show how good he is at fighting. This is why there are lots of demos of chi sau but almost none of fighting. Simple really.

K gledhill, elbows/wrists is just speculation until someone does something with it

so you dont know ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your point, I believe, is that Magic practiced like it was a game. So therefore, sparring as opposed to drills is important. Is that right? I would agree with that to a certain extent. However, I don't think there is anyway, unless Magic has 50 thousand people on the payroll to boo him during free throw practice, to duplicate a real time situation. Sparring is obviously a lot closer to a real fight. My point is that it is necessary to drill and practice without pressure so that you can build a foundation for success when there is pressure. My other point was that drills and chi sao build your Wing Chun skill. Just because it's not done in an actual fight doesn't mean the skill isn't there.

So we both have a point and we both think Shaq sucked.
I am a happy camper :D

[Graychuan]

Greychaun,

I no longer do chi sao

And this is exactly why you need not make any comments one way or the other. You dont practice Chi Sao therefore you have no knowledge of how it 'works' or doesnt 'work'.



You can't develop realistic (fighting) skills via chi sao, only via fighting/sparring (realistic training).

....and what the hell do you think chi sao is? NOW Im starting to see your problem. Oh! How do you not hear the grasshopper at your feet?


Once you've learned the movement and can perform it in the unrealistic, artificial exercise that is chi sao, it is time to move on. To stay there, to continue doing chi sao, is to stop your growth in terms of developing fighitng skills.

... and how do you know that Chunnas dont do this? What makes you think that any martial art doesnt do this?
Have YOU done it? Was it successful? Probably not. But then that was Wing Chun's fault ,right? It had absolutly nothing to do with the 25 plus years you say you have devoted to an art. You are an attourney...an educated man, schooled in logic and should be used to a higher level of thinking...YET you spent 25 plus years on an art that you claim doesnt work. Why did you do this? Surely if it doesnt work then you would have figured it out a lot sooner.
Lets face it...I can't engineer a plan to put a man on the moon, but I know bull @ # $ % when I see it. And it would not have taken 25 plus years.

WING CHUN is not your problem.



In fact, my view is that chi sao isn't even a very good learning platform.

...I'll just put this one on ice. It'll come back to haunt you.:eek:


Of course, don't take my word for it, just go to a good muay thai or MMA school, and see if you can do in fighting those things you can do so well in chi sao. You'll see.


...zzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZ






The goal of martial art training is to develop fighting skills, not artificial, unrealistic drill skills. You don't judge how good a boxer is except through his performance boxing or a wrestler except through his performance wrestling. The only way to see skill, to see performance ability, is by and through performance. In the martial arts, that performance is fighting. If you can't do it in fighting, you have no skill.

You haven't seen me "in action" because you haven't come to see me. If you are interested, pay me a visit. Or, make it easier on yourself and go to a good MMA or MT school and see. Either way, you'll get the same experience.



:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Now why would I come see you? I doubt you would really even want this to happen. Something tells me you have had a bad experience with this or something. You are way past 'vendetta' stage against Wing Chun and I dont know why.

Good luck to you ,T. ;)

[Ali. R]

Interesting, I have been to Magic Johnson’s basketball camps for 6 years in a row coming up in Detroit and growing up in the same area has him, our high schools actually played each other…

When I say that I went too his camps, I mean I actually work there each summer… I’ve played with the man and practice with him also, what you are saying about him is true…

Magic Johnson is a team player and he has prove that over and over again through his passing while in the game… Too make such high percentage in assist shows that he really drills his understanding of the plays…

All we did was drills and more drills, but too make the cut you had too have a game heart and if anyone deviates from the drills, they were gone that day… If you don’t drill then how can anyone execute the game plan?

Almost everything in life has drills too comprehend an understanding or procedure… In life everything is based on a fundamental standpoint, it’s not always about advancement, because most of us have too deal with what is handed to us and nothing more…

The more that ones fundamentals and basic are sound, the more that one would be better off in life, and never forget where you’re from and who you are… If one trained in something and made it theirs, why give up something for a so-called advancement, when it’s the fundamentals and basic in life that makes one shine…


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

Greychaun,

I know you are happy with your fantasy-based wing chun, so why do you want to discuss things with me?

I know how to do chi sao, did it for years, have done it with people on this forum. It's a step, not the destination. If you stay on the step, you never get to the destination.

I know you will never come to visit me or go spar at a good MMA or MT school; you don't practice WCK. You practice the curriculum of WCK, over and over and over. Keep repeating those forms, keep doing the drills, etc. This is what fantasy-based people do. And they derive their fantasy-based "knowledge" and skills from that practice. If you're happy doing that, do it. That's fine. But that doesn't produce good skills. Never has.

I've never said WCK doesn't work. I've said that the traditional martial art training regimen doesn't produce good fighting skills. You can make WCK work -- by training it like a modern fighter trains. I've met others besides my group that does that. They're out there.

[k gledhill]

chi-sao is a means to an end and by no means the end :D

I attack you, you try to stop me, what you put in my way is for 'no mind' to fight.

how good is your attack ? do you stand and roll with wrist energy ? is that attacking striking ? why elbows ?

wrist stickers or elbow developers = 2 very different fighters. :D

[Graychuan]

Greychaun,

I know you are happy with your fantasy-based wing chun, so why do you want to discuss things with me?

I know how to do chi sao, did it for years, have done it with people on this forum. It's a step, not the destination. If you stay on the step, you never get to the destination.

I know you will never come to visit me or go spar at a good MMA or MT school; you don't practice WCK. You practice the curriculum of WCK, over and over and over. Keep repeating those forms, keep doing the drills, etc. This is what fantasy-based people do. And they derive their fantasy-based "knowledge" and skills from that practice. If you're happy doing that, do it. That's fine. But that doesn't produce good skills. Never has.

I've never said WCK doesn't work. I've said that the traditional martial art training regimen doesn't produce good fighting skills. You can make WCK work -- by training it like a modern fighter trains. I've met others besides my group that does that. They're out there.

The only fantasy here is my thinking that you can actually converse about Wing Chun. Sorry to waste your time.

Peace.

[sanjuro_ronin]

chi-sao is a means to an end and by no means the end :D

I attack you, you try to stop me, what you put in my way is for 'no mind' to fight.

how good is your attack ? do you stand and roll with wrist energy ? is that attacking striking ? why elbows ?

wrist stickers or elbow developers = 2 very different fighters. :D

So is the guy with a chair or baseball bat or rabid wet badger !
:D

[Graychuan]

I like how he attacks structure with his bridging. He used the Bong-Sao really good with a bracing step forward toward his partner. I also liked that slap and chop off of the lan-sao bridge just like out of the wooden man form. Cool stuff.

[WaveWingChun]

Greychaun,

I know how to do chi sao, did it for years, have done it with people on this forum. It's a step, not the destination. If you stay on the step, you never get to the destination.

Chi Sao, to me, is like an excercise that an artist will do. It starts off as limited due to your limited skill level, but then it grows into almost anything you want it to because your skill level has grown. Picasso could paint some crazy stuff, but he could only do that because he knew how to figure draw with a pencil. (I know, I'm becoming the analogy guy here) Same thing with Chi Sao. The more Wing Chun you know the more you can do with it. It's like when you first start doing it with your Sifu he takes it easy on you. When you get more skill he all of the sudden ramps it up on you. Wing Chun is principle based. As long as you follow those principles, you can go anywhere. That's why it's so cool. It's limitless.

[Graychuan]

chi-sao is a means to an end and by no means the end :D


When did anyone in here every say anyhting different? The start of this thread was' This man has skills'. When did anyone here try to say that this was fighting. It translates into fighting yes. And whether you like it or not Chi Sao is a method of training to fight.
K Gled, you and T need to stop trying to put wordz in peeps mouths. We are ok with the fact that you dont understand how Chi Sao translates into fighting. Its ok. Really. So when there is a thread that is discussing Chi-Sao we will also be ok with you not contributing since you never have any intention of discussing Chi Sao AND since you have already told us your 'view is that chi sao isnt even a very good training platform' (Its back...Who you gonna call? GHOSTBUSTERS!!!)

You dont see me in the MMA forums trying to preach about how thier training methods dont work even tho I dont even do MMA*(As you dont do CHI SAO).

Please leave us to our discussion.

* Maybe this is a subject for another thread, however this craze about Mixed Martial Arts is fundamentally flawed anyway since most of the 'artists' that practice them have not practiced anything long enuff to even understand the fundamentals on ONE art let alone the principles of more than one. As far as I am concerned there are very few peeps that even have the right to talk about mixing arts anyways. This is my $.02.

[Graychuan]

... The more Wing Chun you know the more you can do with it...



What HE said...!:D

[Ali. R]

When did anyone in here every say anyhting different? The start of this thread was' This man has skills'. When did anyone here try to say that this was fighting. It translates into fighting yes. And whether you like it or not Chi Sao is a method of training to fight.
K Gled, you and T need to stop trying to put wordz in peeps mouths. We are ok with the fact that you dont understand how Chi Sao translates into fighting. Its ok. Really. So when there is a thread that is discussing Chi-Sao we will also be ok with you not contributing since you never have any intention of discussing Chi Sao AND since you have already told us your 'view is that chi sao isnt even a very good training platform' (Its back...Who you gonna call? GHOSTBUSTERS!!!)

You dont see me in the MMA forums trying to preach about how thier training methods dont work even tho I dont even do MMA*(As you dont do CHI SAO).

Please leave us to our discussion.

* Maybe this is a subject for another thread, however this craze about Mixed Martial Arts is fundamentally flawed anyway since most of the 'artists' that practice them have not practiced anything long enuff to even understand the fundamentals on ONE art let alone the principles of more than one. As far as I am concerned there are very few peeps that even have the right to talk about mixing arts anyways. This is my $.02.


And let the church say,,,,,,,,,, WELL!!!

[jooerduo]

You can't tell how good anyone's WCK is by their forms or their chi sao. None of that reflects (or even develops) realistic WCK (fighting) skills. Have him spar with some good muay thai or MMA fighters and then you'll see what he can really do or not do. WCK is fighting. If you don't see fighting, then you aren't seeing WCK.



you are right, you have to see things in their different context

the context of that video is of training and teaching his students some situations in the training envrionment

it won't look like that in a brawl at all

[SAAMAG]

* Maybe this is a subject for another thread, however this craze about Mixed Martial Arts is fundamentally flawed anyway since most of the 'artists' that practice them have not practiced anything long enuff to even understand the fundamentals on ONE art let alone the principles of more than one. As far as I am concerned there are very few peeps that even have the right to talk about mixing arts anyways. This is my $.02.

Isn't it surprising how people who "aren't qualified" to mix arts do so well in their ability to use their skills? It's because they are no longer being fooled by the doctrines that say someone has to practice 30 years before they're able "truly" master their system and be able to fight.

The problem some people have is that not everyone is created equal...some people can and will gain proficiency in a system in much less time than others. I say proficiency because no one is invincible and no one is perfect...thus no one can truly master anything, only achieve a zen-like performance of it when they no longer have to think about what they're doing.

At the same time, chi sao to me improves certain attributes, but that's about it. It is the varying practitioners that try to make it something it isn't by calling it "sparring".

[Phil Redmond]

Isn't it surprising how people who "aren't qualified" to mix arts do so well in their ability to use their skills? It's because they are no longer being fooled by the doctrines that say someone has to practice 30 years before they're able "truly" master their system and be able to fight.

The problem some people have is that not everyone is created equal...some people can and will gain proficiency in a system in much less time than others. I say proficiency because no one is invincible and no one is perfect...thus no one can truly master anything, only achieve a zen-like performance of it when they no longer have to think about what they're doing.

At the same time, chi sao to me improves certain attributes, but that's about it. It is the varying practitioners that try to make it something it isn't by calling it "sparring".
So well said Van. People say your tan is too low, too high you shouldn't step this or that way, you shouldn't fight on the outside or inside. If you can pull it off who cares? People fight well without ever having heard of Chi Sao. Chi sao isn't sparring nor fighting but I teach and use chi sao principles for fighting. Opinions vary. There is one test though and that is fighting with people outside of your school who will try to wreck you. Otherwise it's all theory.

[k gledhill]

When did anyone in here every say anyhting different? The start of this thread was' This man has skills'. When did anyone here try to say that this was fighting. It translates into fighting yes. And whether you like it or not Chi Sao is a method of training to fight.
K Gled, you and T need to stop trying to put wordz in peeps mouths. We are ok with the fact that you dont understand how Chi Sao translates into fighting. Its ok. Really. So when there is a thread that is discussing Chi-Sao we will also be ok with you not contributing since you never have any intention of discussing Chi Sao AND since you have already told us your 'view is that chi sao isnt even a very good training platform' (Its back...Who you gonna call? GHOSTBUSTERS!!!)

You dont see me in the MMA forums trying to preach about how thier training methods dont work even tho I dont even do MMA*(As you dont do CHI SAO).

Please leave us to our discussion.

* Maybe this is a subject for another thread, however this craze about Mixed Martial Arts is fundamentally flawed anyway since most of the 'artists' that practice them have not practiced anything long enuff to even understand the fundamentals on ONE art let alone the principles of more than one. As far as I am concerned there are very few peeps that even have the right to talk about mixing arts anyways. This is my $.02.



talk on .....:D the mountain can be climbed many ways but the view VT presents takes a specific path of 'thinking'...no amount of redundant rolling will produce it like a rabbit out of a hat...time spent is no guarantee either.

cricket ejecting from well ..3,2,1 !! boooinngg :D

[SAAMAG]

So well said Van. People say your tan is too low, too high you shouldn't step this or that way, you shouldn't fight on the outside or inside. If you can pull it off who cares? People fight well without ever having heard of Chi Sao. Chi sao isn't sparring nor fighting but I teach and use chi sao principles for fighting. Opinions vary. There is one test though and that is fighting with people outside of your school who will try to wreck you. Otherwise it's all theory.

Yep, and we all know how much chunner's love their theories! I just hope people don't misconstrue what I've said around the forums recently as me being a traditionalist hating UFC humper. Far from it.

I'm simply a realist who prefers a pragmatic approach to fighting and learning the skills to fight. Don't care what other's think of my "style", don't care if someone's a master, don't care if someone's a grandmaster. People are people; some can fight, some can't. Bottom line is whether I can fight.

Some guys question my "skills" because I've learned and gained high ranks in other styles...and give the whole "It's better to have one sharp knife than many dull ones" speech. They assume that my knives are dull because I have a few of them. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, a throw is a throw. It's all the same shiet minus a couple tweaks here and there. Once a person realizes this, learning other systems is cake.

For example, I just started taking Judo as of tonight. I learned a couple moves and applied them immediately in free sparring against resisting opponents. It's just a matter of absorbing and applying. I just think that some people get upset because it may not be that easy for them to learn and apply.

And the fact of the matter is that while no styles are bad, not all of them are good either; in that they don't give answers to all the problems one might face. People get offended because someone realized this and decided to look elsewhere for something functional where their style has a deficit.

In summary...people need to stop being so sensitive about their faults or their style's faults and get out there and take care of business. Don't worry about what other people are doing, or what they think for that matter. It's all about the individual. The kingdom of heaven lies within.

[guy b.]

so you dont know

Lol spare me the condescending attitude of the recent WSL convert who just realised elbow position and energy is important. The problem with you guys is that once you have climbed to this next "step" as Terrence would call it, you just sit there theorising about elbows. Got to keep moving, there's so much more to do. Are you a philip bayer student by any chance? You remind me of someone

[LoneTiger108]

I actually thought this thread would produce some lil insights from people about the clips of Louison Sifu?! How wrong eh?!

I'm falling asleep reading the same old dribble :rolleyes:

I think everyone needs to step back and really look at what we're doing here. I do all the time, and recently I've been wondering why I even bother?!! :(

There does seem to be a fighting majority here, which is a shame. And some that claim to know what Chisau is just seem to be wishful thinkers. Chisau is so much more than what you're teachers have told you, or what you have read in books.

And as for old doctrine ruining the Traditional Martial Arts?! HA!! Coming from people who have never even had access to 'doctrines'! It's just laughable... :D

[k gledhill]

Lol spare me the condescending attitude of the recent WSL convert who just realised elbow position and energy is important. The problem with you guys is that once you have climbed to this next "step" as Terrence would call it, you just sit there theorising about elbows. Got to keep moving, there's so much more to do. Are you a philip bayer student by any chance? You remind me of someone

its not elbow position and energy its the whole system , still not there ? :D

is important ? lmao the reason we do dan chi-sao , chi-sao....is to develop the idea, not to stick.

The core idea of SLT is to isolate this ability ...why ? you answer because its important :D

yes correct :D why ? to stick redundantly to another's arms in a free for all classic sticky mess flailing like patty cake just to make a 'touch' and say "I got you" ?


I'm a student of Philipp Bayer . :D heard it before huh ?

[Ali. R]

I actually thought this thread would produce some lil insights from people about the clips of Louison Sifu?! How wrong eh?!


It’s a shame because he really has talented… This is what the masses here really approve of and consider as quality wing chun, just about every member here or every other member has posted their opinion and approval of this mans skills, in which is all good…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGvV0OwrMI8

It’s their right to compliment or give positive insight to anyone they want too, and when they want too… Its nothing anyone one can say about that… Maybe they really feel his skills are not up to par,,, Yeah right!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onA-Jv8Ft9E

It’s just the wrong place and wrong time…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

See, I don't have issues with Chi sao or the wooden dummy or forms, non of that at all.
They all serve their purpose.
I have seen my share of drill training in judo, kyokushin, MT ,etc.
But what I see in those systems that I don't see in WC, video clip wise, is clips of people actually fighting.

Why?

[couch]

I just hope people don't misconstrue what I've said around the forums recently as me being a traditionalist hating UFC humper.

This is almost worth posting as my signature tag. This was hilarious!

Thanks for the humour in all of this mess. :)

[t_niehoff]

When did anyone in here every say anyhting different? The start of this thread was' This man has skills'. When did anyone here try to say that this was fighting.


What people see in forms, chi sao, etc. is facility with the movements of WCK in an unrealistic, artificial, nonfighting situation. Use of the movements in that situation does not correspond to skill in WCK -- which is the ability to use those things in fighting. For example, you can't look at someone shadow boxing and say, "they've got good boxing skills" because you've never seen them really use those skills (in other words, you can't see the skills from shadow boxing, because they are not being used -- skill is being able to do it in fighting against an opponent); all you are seeing are movements in a nonfighting situation. They may look great in shadow boxing and fall apart in sparring (fighting).

WCK, like boxing, is fighting. It's skills are fighting skills. You can't see the skills of WCK without seeing fighting. Just like you can't see bike-riding skills without seeing a person really ride a bike.



It translates into fighting yes. And whether you like it or not Chi Sao is a method of training to fight.


This is what you've been told and what you want to believe (you can learn to fight without fighting), but it is not true. And you can see that for yourself if you give yourself the right experience (which most people won't do since it will upset their belief structure) -- like by going and fghting/sparring at a good MMA or muay thai school. You'll see that chi sao hasn't prepared you and hasn't developed any usable skills.

Chi sao is an unrealistic, artifical, exercise that doesn't correspond to fighting. You can't develop realistic skills (skills that you can use in a realistic fighting situation) from unrealistic drills. In other words, you can't develop fighting skills by not fighting. What dhi sao can develop is facility with the contact movements/skills of WCK. But having facility with the movements doesn't mean they will "work" in fighting.

You can't develop bike-riding skills by not riding the bike.



K Gled, you and T need to stop trying to put wordz in peeps mouths. We are ok with the fact that you dont understand how Chi Sao translates into fighting. Its ok. Really. So when there is a thread that is discussing Chi-Sao we will also be ok with you not contributing since you never have any intention of discussing Chi Sao AND since you have already told us your 'view is that chi sao isnt even a very good training platform' (Its back...Who you gonna call? GHOSTBUSTERS!!!)

You dont see me in the MMA forums trying to preach about how thier training methods dont work even tho I dont even do MMA*(As you dont do CHI SAO).

Please leave us to our discussion.


I see, of course you "understand how chi sao translates into fighting" but you just can't do it. ;) This is the same with all you fantasy-based guys: you all "know" it and "understand" it but you just can't do it. You all have your theory and your beliefs, which works fine in your fantasy world of nonfighting, but none of that is backed by evidence and real fighting experience. It's never a case of "here I am in chi sao" and then "here I am doing the same things banging at the MMA school".

This isn't a thread about the superiority of MMA. It is a thread about 'skill in WCK'. As I pointed out, you can't see skill except by its use. In a martial art, like WCK, that means use in fighting. What guys like you want to beleive is that you can "infer" fighitng skill from seeing chi sao (he can 'move well' in chi sao, so that will translate into fighting). That is patently false. And that is easy to see for yourself if you give yourself the right experience.

[Ali. R]

I have seen my share of drill training in judo, kyokushin, MT ,etc. But what I see in those systems that I don't see in WC, video clip wise, is clips of people actually fighting.

Why?


Because most of the time,,, well, all the time for me… Its starts from a simple sparring match, to a cage fight and finally the U.F.C…

I CANT GET AWAY WITH JUST A SIMPLE FIGHT!!! At least not here I cant, in which have been proven more then once…

I have to train for a tournament to show if wing chun is a true fighting system, I wonder why?


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Because most of the time,,, well, all the time for me… Its starts from a simple sparring match, to a cage fight and finally the U.F.C…

I CANT GET AWAY WITH JUST A SIMPLE FIGHT!!! At least not here I cant, in which have been proven more then once…

I have to train for a tournament to show if wing chun is a true fighting system, I wonder why?



Ali Rahim.

Not sure what you mean...

[Ali. R]

Not sure what you mean...


Meaning, no matter who presents the clip and how good the outcome, they will always say wing chun is no good as a fighting art because one as too take it to a pro or semi-pro level, meaning here on this forum someone has to be hurt or knock out, too validate that fact…

For me, it’s just way too much work and maybe a lot of future problems to validate a fact…

To me a fight is a fight no matter where it’s located…


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Meaning, no matter who presents the clip and how good the outcome, they will always say wing chun is no good as a fighting art because one as too take it to a pro or semi-pro level, meaning here on this forum someone has to be hurt or knock out, too validate that fact…

For me, it’s just way too much work and maybe a lot of future problems to validate a fact…

To me a fight is a fight no matter where it’s located…


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

I don't agree, what do you base this opinion on?

[Ali. R]

I don't agree, what do you base this opinion on?


That’s the same thing I said, but those were the stipulations I was given before they would accept a clip from me as a validated fact…


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well that's just silly.
You don't have to KO anyone to prove you are a better fighter, skill is skill and its obvious when a person fights.

[Ali. R]

I’m with you all the way on that one… But if it’s a good clip, then they’ll say you picked a bum who had no skills…

That’s why they suggested a cage fight or a ring fight or some type of promotions deal or something, at least that’s what they said to me before I could even begin to make the clip… And I think that’s way too much too prove a point…

I was dealing with people from different schools (SPARRING), and different systems and all, but coming from me, it was not good enough… Who knows maybe a clip like that will pop up some day…


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I’m with you all the way on that one… But if it’s a good clip, then they’ll say you picked a bum who had no skills…

That’s why they suggested a cage fight or a ring fight or some type of promotions deal or something, at least that’s what they said to me before I could even begin to make the clip… And I think that’s way too much too prove a point…

I was dealing with people from different schools (SPARRING), and different systems and all, but coming from me, it was not good enough… Who knows maybe a clip like that will pop up some day…


Ali Rahim.

Do you have any links to said clip ?

[Ali. R]

Do you have any links to said clip ?


No, not at the moment… I have all kinds of stuff on V.H.S dealing with sparring years ago (tournaments), but I’m sure that wont work for them also…

I know a lot of wing chun families, and have been to their kwoons (over a dozen) many of times and they do also spar, maybe not everyday but one to three times a week, but most people from almost every school or system just don’t post there sparring sessions, I don’t know why they just don’t …

With this MMA thing, most don’t feel that it’s a good fight unless one is fighting in a cage or training for competition, but it’s a quick fix for those who just cant seem to make their mother art come to life (most of the time a stand up art) so they can get that satisfaction of achievement by taking it back to old school (fifth grade) grabbing, falling in the mud and holding on real tight…

When I was growing up in Detroit, it was the other way around you try too grab someone and lose an ear clean off your head from a right hook, that you never seen coming and the hands where the supreme test of fighting skills and still are where I’m from…

What I’m saying is this; if they cant take a beat down with the hands, its back to fifth grade playing in the mud, some people hands are just to quick too shoot on… You could get real ugly with someone with good quick hands…

In fact it’s a class within its self (sparring), the ideal of sparring should be taught to the student with proper guidance from their sifu, not cut lose like a pit-bull…

And if all the things that one trained in the past or in the present, meaning, forms, drills, are not understood, and if one takes a short cut by eliminating half of the system from their limited understanding… Then one will always have a problem when they try to present wing chun within a fight and that’s with any art, not just with wing chun…


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Interesting view Ali.
Can't say that I agree with everything you said, but thanks for stating your opinion.

[namron]

I quite liked the clips from what they were; chi sao.

Dont think there is any need for terencing :D

No be all nd all and no need to over analyse IMO and expect them to translate into anything other then what was shown.

chill and just enjoy the show for jc's sake :p

[Ali. R]

I have no need to be upset in fact didn’t know I came off that way… I think I understand, cuz the truth can be a Mother Fu*ker…


Ali Rahim.

[guy b.]

lmao the reason we do dan chi-sao , chi-sao....is to develop the idea, not to stick.

Lol do you want a round of applause? This is obvious to anyone who tries fighting, not exactly rocket science. The thing about the lower tier WSL students (eg Bayer) is that they all act like they cured cancer or something. Sure your guys have the elbow correct, but your power is lacking. Obvious deficiency but you are so pleased about the elbow that you don't go any further. What Philip Bayer has is the "bare bones" WSL framework. He understands the system but he's very much limited.

When you compare to a top WSL guy the difference is laughable, but strangely these ones don't go around bragging.

[k gledhill]

Have you ever touched hands with Philipp?
who's bragging ? you brought it up :D

bare bones good :)

[guy b.]

You're the one doing the bragging, that's why I felt compelled to comment. It's easy to appear like Mr know-it-all when your are on a thread with a high proportion of people who don't know anything. This would be fine if you remained silent or plainly stated the answer. Instead you do the lol, nudge nudge, wink wink routine to try and make yourself appear big and clever. It's pathetic.

And yes I have touched hands with Bayer. He's ok but far from great. And he lacks the body mechanic.

[Ali. R]

Interesting view Ali.
Can't say that I agree with everything you said, but thanks for stating your opinion.


Why don’t you make a clip, and I’m sure you wouldn’t have to go through those stipulations and loops? ;)


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

You're the one doing the bragging, that's why I felt compelled to comment. It's easy to appear like Mr know-it-all when your are on a thread with a high proportion of people who don't know anything. This would be fine if you remained silent or plainly stated the answer. Instead you do the lol, nudge nudge, wink wink routine to try and make yourself appear big and clever. It's pathetic.

And yes I have touched hands with Bayer. He's ok but far from great. And he lacks the body mechanic.

Pot calling the kettle black with that statement. The fact that you ASSUME that a majority of people on this forum don't know anything...puts you in the same boat as the nudge nudge wink wink guy.

......

Either way...the guy seems to have good chi sao skills and seems to be geniune in his approach to teaching. That's what this thread is about, isn't it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why don’t you make a clip, and I’m sure you wouldn’t have to go through those stipulations and loops? ;)


Ali Rahim.
Hmmm, one wonders...
Context tends to drive things, I recall getting "reamed" over a clip I made ( for another forum) showing how to apply "short power" in combinations on the HB.

[Ali. R]

Hmmm, one wonders...
Context tends to drive things, I recall getting "reamed" over a clip I made ( for another forum) showing how to apply "short power" in combinations on the HB.


LOL...

At least they didn’t get you before you put a clip up… :D

You take care; it was nice speaking with you.


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL...

At least they didn’t get you before you put a clip up… :D

You take care; it was nice speaking with you.


Ali Rahim.

Actually, if I remember it was Dale that tried to ream me about my "lack of power", but it didn't work out very well for him.
Context thing again.

Good chatting with you too.

[k gledhill]

just rattling cages :D no law against using :rolleyes:;):) looks like a rattled yours :rolleyes:
you dont sound like you would know either way:D:cool::eek::p

[k gledhill]

Terrence is correct, the demo of chi sau doesn't show how good he is at fighting. This is why there are lots of demos of chi sau but almost none of fighting. Simple really.

K gledhill, elbows/wrists is just speculation until someone does something with it


you say it yourself ...just speculation ? so you dont know one from the other .;)

[guy b.]

you say it yourself ...just speculation ? so you dont know one from the other .

Not at all. I know what I do and what my reasons for doing it are. I have no experience of wrist to wrist contact in chi sau so I wouldn't comment on this person's skill just by watching a chi sau clip. For all I know he might be able to make it work in fighting. It is speculation to judge fighting ability on a limited drill just because a person doesn't do things the same way you do.

Plainly stating why you think something is wrong (eg wrist contact) or just shutting up are both good options. Hinting at secret knowledge which just happens to be very trivial makes you look like a gloating idiot.

[k gledhill]

...not being able to give a clear reason for either shows you don't know what your talking about enough to give a clear rational answer ...so resort to typical personal slant of insinuating I have no intelligence factor worth rating :D

I'm simply asking you to ask yourself , whats being done beyond what you see on the surface ? classic sticky , hand chasing with no idea of the bridge to free-fighting or a developmental tool to make ones attack more efficient ?

its a simple thing to see beyond wrist or elbow..how people use certain actions/move in chi-sao....I lived in London for 15 years so i know the idea or not being done :) not speculation on my part ...:cool: been there done that ...:D


trivial ? its the whole IDEA from beginning to end ....the simple idea ....trivial ?

wrist or elbow = 2 different fighters


sounds like you want me to explain to you or shut up ?

what would you like to hear ? the thinking or me shut up ?:D

[KPM]

...
I'm simply asking you to ask yourself , whats being done beyond what you see on the surface ? classic sticky , hand chasing with no idea of the bridge to free-fighting or a developmental tool to make ones attack more efficient ?



I think I follow what you're saying.......what is the attitude/emphasis? Is Chi Sao a means to an end, or an end in and of itself? I've seen people that were very good at Chi Sao. They can do all kinds of complicated techniques and responses. But how many of those complicated Chi Sao moves actually apply to real fighting? Chi Sao should develop contact reflex, the ability to sense an opening in the opponent's defense and the ability to overcome an obstruction in order to hit the opponent. It shouldn't consist of a whole lot of complicated prearranged responses to various attacks.

[k gledhill]

exactly ...but there is a developmental path in stages to develop this ability, that simply put gets lost or isn't understood clearly , so the players go into using each other as platform for energy ...using wrists to seek out a place to rest the force ...rather than the other idea :D

wristing or elbow idea what are you developing ? whats the difference ? not gloating its asking you ..what do you think you are doing ? do you know ? what is the outcome ?

an attack system that functions in freefighting or hand patty cake ?

[Graychuan]

The purpose of these specific prearranged drills is to develop a very simple but obviously overlooked facet of fighting training which is called Muscle Memory. Now its one thing to react or respond to an attack but what are you reacting with? Reflexes as you say? Ok, then what is the reflexive response? Do we just pull this out of our @$$&$ at the moment? No.

The drills in WC and Chi Sao (for those that actually study this art and are curious) are pre arranged because they work against attacks and deal with incoming force by sending it to the floor through proper interdependent structure. The problem with understanding chi-sao is that it is a platform that allows for repetitive motion to drill these responses AND with the intent of also ingraining the concepts of interdependent structure, jing lik, sensitivity, timing and such. If Chi-Sao is done with this in mind then your response to an attack (or your attack) will not deviate from a structure which supports the appropriate action, because you have already drilled it in to begin with. Chi-Sao involves the stance and structure as much as the ‘complicated prearranged responses’ of the hands. This type of repetitive training is useful in all drills and for preparing to fight…chi-sao, yut fuk yee, da, lop cycles, don chi sao, chi gerk, wooden man and forms BUT only complete when it is harnessed in the understanding of structure.
An understanding of structure automatically implies an understanding of distance as well. We see a lot of chi-sao play where the partners are almost at arms length and/or the bridge too high. We also see a lot of segmenting of the structure mainly at the lower back and hips (leaning) when incoming force is applied. We also don’t see a lot of double arm control. Too far away means no follow through. A step can always be taken but then there is that structure thing again. That’s why SLT doesn’t trust you to take one step until the end of the form. If Luk-Sao is already at full extension of the arms then where is the follow-through? How can we deal with incoming force without compromising our defense drastically? How can we remain soft but powerful?

Chi-Sao is Wing Chun’s way to answer these questions.
There is no skill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmXYbDcYNK8)without understanding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JkYAiljrNk).

[guy b.]

OBVIOUSLY chi sau is a means to an end. Obviously it isn't fighting. If you work with elbow contact in chi sau you are developing the ability to hit while making it very difficult for anyone to hit back, this is all. It is about hitting, not some lame type of wrestling like chi sau often becomes. You are hitting down angles you have control of from a close range. That's wing chun. You don't want to stick to anything.

If you work at wrist contact distance I don't see how you can control the angles, but who knows.

[SAAMAG]

The purpose of these specific prearranged drills is to develop a very simple but obviously overlooked facet of fighting training which is called Muscle Memory. Now its one thing to react or respond to an attack but what are you reacting with? Reflexes as you say? Ok, then what is the reflexive response? Do we just pull this out of our @$$&$ at the moment? No.

The drills in WC and Chi Sao (for those that actually study this art and are curious) are pre arranged because they work against attacks and deal with incoming force by sending it to the floor through proper interdependent structure. The problem with understanding chi-sao is that it is a platform that allows for repetitive motion to drill these responses AND with the intent of also ingraining the concepts of interdependent structure, jing lik, sensitivity, timing and such. If Chi-Sao is done with this in mind then when the muscle memory is ingrained then your response to an attack (or your attack) will not deviate from a structure which supports the appropriate action, because you have already drilled it in to begin with. Chi-Sao involves the stance and structure as much as the ‘complicated prearranged responses’ of the hands. This type of repetitive training is useful in all drills and for preparing to fight…chi-sao, yut fuk yee, da, lop cycles, don chi sao, chi gerk, wooden man and forms BUT only complete when it is harnessed in the understanding of structure.
An understanding of structure automatically implies an understanding of distance as well. We see a lot of chi-sao play where the partners are almost at arms length and/or the bridge too high. We also see a lot of segmenting of the structure mainly at the lower back and hips (leaning) when incoming force is applied. We also don’t see a lot of double arm control. Too far away means no follow through. A step can always be taken but then there is that structure thing again. That’s why SLT doesn’t trust you to take one step until the end of the form. If Luk-Sao is already at full extension of the arms then where is the follow-through? How can we deal with incoming force without compromising our defense drastically? How can we remain soft but powerful?

Chi-Sao is Wing Chun’s way to answer these questions.
There is no skill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmXYbDcYNK8)without understanding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JkYAiljrNk).

Good explanation.

From that grain--when people complain about forms and talk about boxer's and such having no forms--take a look at the focus mitt drills, or when they hit the heavy bag. Those repetitive combinations are creating a muscle memory "form" that boxer's often repeat in their performance of the sport.

Chi sao is there to help engrain fighting attributes used in WING CHUN. The only thing I don't like about complicated hand movements though -- is that 90% of the time they won't work in real application against a non-chunner. The more complicated something is the less likely it is to succeed. Also keep in mind that those 30 hit arm combo's have zero power due to natural laws of human musculature function.

[Graychuan]

If you work at wrist contact distance I don't see how you can control the angles...

By sticking and bridgewalking. Chi-Sao teaches this.

:)

[Ali. R]

Chi sao is there to help engrain fighting attributes used in WING CHUN. The only thing I don't like about complicated hand movements though -- is that 90% of the time they won't work in real application against a non-chunner.

That’s not true, I never had a problem putting anyone on their a$$ with my wing chun ability and tech that comes from my chi sao training, every attack that I use in chi sao, I can use in a fight…

That’s why we train in chi sao (sensitivity just as Aikido) so things wont become so complicated in the heat of battle, even when using advance techniques from the other forms; what some may call: complicated hand movements…

When something is truly understood then complication will not fall in that realm or ideal dealing with attack and defense… The more that one don’t understand the more complicated things can be or will get…

Wing Chun training is kind of like Aikido (receiving energies): you never see them spar or in tournaments, but yet they’re very affective in what they do because of their training methods in which is very similar to wing chun (receiving in coming force or energies)…

This is why most have to take it too the ground because of there lack of comprehension… If one deviate from forms, then they’ll deviate from structure, and if one deviate from structure, then one deviates from ideal…

(Sil Lum Tao; Little Ideal)= basic and fundamentals…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

Wing Chun energies dealing with chi sao don’t come from the wrist, it comes from overall structure (body unity or connection through the stance) in which should be a basic understanding before going into chi sao…


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

If you work at wrist contact distance...

which is actually what we call the small triangle in the Woo system. Although this point of contact is the wrists (sao)...the distance is defined by the limits of the interdependent structure (http://detroitwingchun.com/kenart1.htm).

[SAAMAG]

That’s not true, I never had a problem putting anyone on their a$$ with my wing chun ability and tech that comes from my chi sao training, every attack that I use in chi sao, I can use in a fight…

That’s why we train in chi sao (sensitivity just as Aikido) so things wont become so complicated in the heat of battle, even when using advance techniques from the other forms; what some may call: complicated hand movements…

When something is truly understood then complication will not fall in that realm or ideal dealing with attack and defense… The more that one don’t understand the more complicated things can be or will get…

Wing Chun training is kind of like Aikido (receiving energies): you never see them spar or in tournaments, but yet they’re very affective in what they do because of their training methods in which is very similar to wing chun (receiving in coming force or energies)…

This is why most have to take it too the ground because of there lack of comprehension… If one deviate from forms, then they’ll deviate from structure, and if one deviate from structure, then one deviates from ideal…

(Sil Lum Tao; Little Ideal)= basic and fundamentals…


Ali Rahim.


Perhaps I should elaborate Ali, what I'm saying is the 20 step techniques you see in some chi sao/gor sao won't happen like that with the standardized fighters. Why? Because they don't react the same way a wing chun guy would. Most of those "complicated" or many-multi-step movements exist only when when the opponent reacts the "right" way or the "wing chun" way.

I was working with a friend of mine who is very very strong, but consistently grabs and freezes up when confronted with the slappy hands of wing chun--because that's the only way he knows to slow things down...grab the wrists/arms and hold them tight. Needless to say the complicated multistep techniques stop right there, because now the gameplan has to change into more of a chin na mindset of escaping from the hands or going into joint manipulation. What I commonly do to him is gather my energies and sharply press him with popai type energy (really more like tai chi's first movement in the form) and that disengages his hands because he's now flying backwards, and then I can shoot in again as the wing chun maxim goes--or I can pick him apart from longer range.

I've always preferred wing chun to be simple, where there doesn't need to be five hand slaps or checks before finally trying to hit the guy. I've seen it where guys will tan to the outside gate, lap the arm, pak/gum sao it, only then to finally punch....when they could have simply tan da'd in the first place or just punched with tan energy. That would have been the most efficient method right there.

Anyway...got homework to do...so I'm stepping off the box for now.

[KPM]

Perhaps I should elaborate Ali, what I'm saying is the 20 step techniques you see in some chi sao/gor sao won't happen like that with the standardized fighters. Why? Because they don't react the same way a wing chun guy would. Most of those "complicated" or many-multi-step movements exist only when when the opponent reacts the "right" way or the "wing chun" way.

---I agree 100%


I've always preferred wing chun to be simple, where there doesn't need to be five hand slaps or checks before finally trying to hit the guy.

---I've always been of the opinion that if you go past a 3 count without actually striking the opponent, then you are probably "chasing hands"!

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Several years ago when I stopped teaching for a time, one of my students wanted to continue and I referred him to another school. He came back to me and was not all that happy with the school so I went with him and worked out a bit to see what the deal was.

One thing I noticed was that there seemed to be overly complicated patterns of movements before someone actuall struck someone. I tried to follow them and just gave up and ended up hitting my partner after two or three movements. I was too dumb to follow all of the intricate and complicated patterns used at the school :confused:

After the class, one of the instructors asked to do Chi Sau with me. I was wearing a light windbreaker and stuck my arms out, he looked at the other guy and snickered then removed his own jacket and touched hands with me. He obviously thought he had the advnatage as he had direct contact on his skin. Unfortunately it did not work out that way :D I have also crossed hands with a Chen Tai Chi Sifu and found that by keeping things simple and direct was much to my advantage.

Chi Sau is not fighting, I don't think anyone who understands Chi Sau will say otherwise. However, it is a valuable platform on which to build ones skills. Also, Chi Sau is not about sticking or being sticky to someones arms, it is about feeling the energy being given and reacting to this energy in the most appropriate manner. A true understanding of Chi Sau transcends arms movements and takes in the entire body, much as trapping can be done with more than just hands.

Chi Sau is a piece of the puzzle not the whole pie. Still, it represents a valuable piece of the pie\puzzle and to neglect it could limit ones further understanding of the system.

The gentleman in the video is demonstrating not fighting and his performance should be considered in that light. His hands do appear to be rather good and his structure likewise. While I do not know how well he may do in a real fight, I would tend to feel that this videos performance tends to indicate he could take care of himself just fine, of course that is my opinion and is not worth all that much.

[k gledhill]

elbow elbow elbow:D

[Graychuan]

One thing I noticed was that there seemed to be overly complicated patterns of movements before someone actuall struck someone. I tried to follow them and just gave up and ended up hitting my partner after two or three movements. I was too dumb to follow all of the intricate and complicated patterns used at the school.

The patterns are for teaching continuity of technique. Chi-Sao is a two way street not one sided. Do you guys train with the expectation that your opponent will never stop at least one shot? How do you train to deal with this? Both partners have a role in the Luk-Sao.


I have also crossed hands with a Chen Tai Chi Sifu and found that by keeping things simple and direct was much to my advantage.

Noone ever said this wasnt the case. We were only commenting on his Wing Chun Skills as the thread stated. And yes I believe that peformance in Chi Sao translated into fighting as I stated before. This has not changed. Now lets keep going...


Chi Sau is not fighting, I don't think anyone who understands Chi Sau will say otherwise. However, it is a valuable platform on which to build ones skills..

So just exactly what skills are we practicing if not skills to be useful in a fight?

A true understanding of Chi Sau transcends arms movements and takes in the entire body, much as trapping can be done with more than just hands.

I believe this is what I was saying earlier with the whole structure and stance thing. And what we have said many times before.


Chi Sau is a piece of the puzzle not the whole pie. Still, it represents a valuable piece of the pie\puzzle and to neglect it could limit ones further understanding of the system.

...yep...keep going....:D


While I do not know how well he may do in a real fight, I would tend to feel that this videos performance tends to indicate he could take care of himself just fine , of course that is my opinion and is not worth all that much.


Badow! Yahtzee! Bonzaiiiiiii! Wooop Wooop!!!
you got it, mane!

:D

[Ali. R]

What people have too realize it’s not about the movements or applications, it’s what one feels and if the line control is understood then the movements are not wasted but very much so useful.

If there’s a bridge (from a punch or a block) your pins, traps and blocks will come off without thinking, therefore using chi sao or fighting without chasing hands in which I haven’t seen yet in one of his vids, but only responding to his opponents reaction and more reactions, not pushing anything out on his own (If so please point out the mark on the clip), but just responding using different elements from different wing chun forms as he explained himself on the clip…

The more that one can relate to the forms, the more of those 20 or-so movement in chi sao that everyone does or uses, will become useless against someone who can just relax with a clear mind and let their understanding or application come to life from the other forms, rather being caught up in the moment still thinking hard as h3ll on what too do next…

Lets face it gentlemen, if one can master his forms, the more one can relate that understanding within their chi sao… Then,,, what was complicated is no longer complicated… But then again, who has the time, patient, perseverance and the will too ponder if something is not working correctly within their wing chun studies… Nope not here, from most of us it’s about deviation, and instant gratification …


Ali Rahim.

[Matrix]

So just exactly what skills are we practicing if not skills to be useful in a fight?Skill development can be separate from the actual activity and still enhance the attributes that you bring to the activity. For eaxmple, I can work on my typing skills to become a better writer, but the typing drills are not writing per se. The drills will enhance my ability to write. I can bring that skill to the writing, but it is not in itself "writing". Chi sao is a drill to enhance sensitivity amongst other things, but it is not fighting - at least that's how I see it. Of course, you have every right to consider chi sao as fighting, or to turn it into a fight. I just think that if you do that you're turning it into something else, in which case you'd be better of sparring.
Just a thought,
Bill

[Matrix]

The more that one can relate to the forms, the more of those 20 or-so movement in chi sao that everyone does or uses, will become useless against someone who can just relax with a clear mind and let their understanding or application come to life from the other forms, rather being caught up in the moment still thinking hard as h3ll on what too do next…

This is right on the mark, IMO.
Too much complexity can translate in increased room for error, lack of efficiency and waste of energy (physical and mental), etc. The death of your attack is when you start "thinking" too much about the next move.

Bill

[t_niehoff]

Skill development can be separate from the actual activity and still enhance the attributes that you bring to the activity.

This view is IMO the root of the problem. Many people would certainly like that to be true --to be able, for example, to learn and develop fighting skills without fighting (like through forms and chi sao). But it is just not true, and both real-world evidence and science has refuted it.

A psycho-motor skill is defined as your ability to bring about a desired result (accomplish a task) with max certainty and min time/effort. That desired result (of a task) is the performance of the actual activity (task) itself. You can't know how skilled you are at a task if you don't perform the task. You get better at performance of a task by performing the task itself. You don't get better at performing the task by not performing the task. The transfer of skill from one psycho-motor task to another (positivie transfer) depends of the degree of similarity between the tasks (how closely the tasks mirror each other).

There is also negative transfer, where skill development in one task hurts the skill development in another task.

The only way to determine your skill (at performing a task) is by performance of the task itself. The only way to judge your training (whether it is working, how well it is working, etc.) is through performance of the task itself.

[Ali. R]

Every system trains too fight without fighting, boxing, judo, aikido, kali and karate and many, many more…

What one has too understand is the concept of fighting in any system only comes after one can truly relate or express the level that they’re on with no hesitation and not become a knowledge hog, never digesting the knowledge that they have already received…

But in greed, of self-satisfaction or in the ideal of having more on their plates, feeling good in the terms of advancement when they really haven’t learned anything, and then feeling ill about a system or drill ( chi sao; in which they never understood from their own deviation.) that they turned their backs on right from the start, from their own insubordination, deviation and self-gratification (advancing way too fast within their system)…


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

Every system trains too fight without fighting, boxing, judo, aikido, kali and karate and many, many more…

What one has too understand is the concept of fighting in any system only comes after one can truly relate or express the level that they’re on with no hesitation and not become a knowledge hog, never digesting the knowledge that they have already received…

But in greed, of self-satisfaction or in the ideal of having more on their plate, feeling good in the terms of advancement when they really haven’t learned anything, and then feeling ill about a system or drill (in which they never understood from their own deviation) that they turned their backs on right from the start, from their own insubordination, deviation and self-gratification…


Ali Rahim.

Too many words for simple ideas, if I understand you correctly you mean to say:

Every system has supplemental attribute based exercises. The concept of fighting only comes after one achieves the state of "mushin no shen" (mind of no-mind), which in turn can only be achieved through absobtion of the marterial. This I wholly agree with.

The second half I think is a jab at T Neihoff stating that he hasn't learned anything and is now bitter about the drills in wing chun he feels are outdated and are ill-preparing students for actual combat. This I think is merely a misunderstood interpretation about his feelings on the issue.

The long and short of it: chi sao is good as an energy sensitivity drill. If bridged in a fight, a wing chun person that practices chi sao *should* be able to react spontaneously to whatever energy is given, until the fighting progresses to another range.

However chi sao also fosters bad habits for fighting as well. It gives the illusion that flippy hand techqniques sourced from the elbow would be effective in stopping their opponent, and ignores a lot of the precursors and natural progression in range.

Here is an example that I've found to be the most advantageous (in terms of fighting skill) chi sao to date, meaning I think this would translate easier to combat than the traditional methods of chi sao:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp19KV9xg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPOlQyO6jkA

[Ali. R]

And in more words you said nothing… There are no jabs at anyone (just the one that you did), and what I said is a known fact in the opening, middle and closing of that post, and I’m not confused about anything…

And if I hit anyone during chi sao, it wont be a slap, and lets face it, everywhere you go there’re always levels of power that one can apply … And once again, do one have to be knocked out too prove a point…

Well two guys did have too carry him out…

And with a man that I never seen before in my life…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP1TH5bHl9Q


Ali Rahim

[SAAMAG]

And in more words you said nothing… There are no jabs at anyone (just the one that you did), and what I said is a known fact in the opening of that post, and I’m not confused about anything…

And if I hit anyone during chi sao, it wont be a slap, and lets face it, everywhere you go there’re always levels of power that one can apply … And once again, do one have to be knocked out too prove a point…

Well two guys did have too carry him out…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP1TH5bHl9Q


Ali Rahim

Ali, don't get your panties in a bunch, man. I didn't make any jabs at anyone in that statement, only tried to understand what you said and elaborated on some of my own thoughts.

If you didn't mean that statement towards T' or people of his mindset, what did you mean and what audience was it directed to? Because the way I interpreted it was that anyone who doesn't agree with the method must have some greedy self centered problem and only wants to collect information to seem "bigger". When to me that's just as wrong as saying chi sao has NO merit whatsoever. Some people simply have different methodologies of training the same thing. Some are right and some are wrong...only one way to find out.

And since it seems you want to verbally degenerate things: I didn't see much in that chi sao either except for bad editing that showed you standing for 2/3 of it, then focused literally on three exhanges where we saw literally two jabs, and a slap, and a half arsed chop/hold thing. Didn't see anything that knocked him out--so we'll just have to take your word on that last one.

[Ali. R]

First you talked about jabs, know panties… WTF, you need to dig that g-sting out you’re a$$ and chill out and come more respectful or don’t come at all… I’ve always talked to you decent and respectfully so WTF happen…

I don’t have too move that much too generate power, I learned that in my earlier stages of wing chun, and they did carry him out…

See what I mean, It will never make a difference on how much proof is given on the effectiveness of wing chun over nonsense (slaps yeah right), they will always change it up...


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

I don’t have too move that much too generate power, I learned that in my earlier stages of wing chun, and they did carry him out…

See what I mean, It will never make a difference on how much prove is given on the effectiveness of wing chun over nonsense (slaps yeah right), they will always change it up...


Ali Rahim.

I see what you mean, you're a big guy, and based on the equation for power you don't need to move much to generate the same power a smaller man would. I never said you were a liar, but I was expecting to see footage of a knocked out man based on your introduction of the video.

But as far as my critic of it, that was based more on your attitude and tone of your last post, and what we could "see". Obviously I can't feel the hit so there's no way of knowing truly. But based on the guy's reactions, it looked like he was alright in those exchanges...except that he was getting hit a lot. When was that footage taken?

[Ali. R]

I have stance control and body connection to the floor, show me anywhere on one of my clips where I’m doing wing chun, where I use force and size… Just pull up one clip… That’s if you can find one, here we go again with the old switch er-rooh…


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

I have stance control and body connection to the floor, show me anywhere on one of my clips where I’m doing wing chun, where I use force and size… Just pull up one clip… That’s if you can find one, here we go again with the old switch er-rooh…


Ali Rahim.

Show me one clip where you are "doing wing chun". I haven't seen one.

You see, this is the problem. Wing chun is fighting. It is not moving around (including "stance control and body connection") in nonfighting situations, like chi sao. Just like hitting the focus mitts isn't boxiing. Boxing is getting in the ring and really using your skills in fighting. Someone showing what they can do when not fighting is irrelevent, it is meaningless, and can only be putin context by fighting. You can't determine how well -- or poorly -- the drills, theory, etc. are except by referencing the fighting (the results of the training).

Since you like putting clips of yourself up, if you think that you have WCK skill, why don't you find some nonWCK guys your size, who are in decent shape, that have some decent skills (muay thai or MMA), and fight them, and show that you can really do those things you "train" to do and talk about doing. Just like a boxer, get in the ring and box. That's the only way to tell if you have boxing skill. The only way to see WCK skill is by fighting. If you truly have skill, that should be simple, right?

We never see that because of "the old switch er-rooh" -- where people try to palm off their being able to do things in a nonfighting situation as fighting skills.

[Ali. R]

And that’s coming from a lawyer that took 25 years before realizing he couldn’t make his wing chun work? (Either one is dumb is h*ll, or is flat out lying…) What I can do in Chi Sao, I can do in a fight, flat out!!!

You never reached that level remember; you quit and deviated all the way, because you said so many, many times on this forum…

I’ve already took on (muay thai or MMA) all comers (no contest each one) and if I show you that I can, in which I’ve already have, in your mind that still want justified anything thing, because there will always be another switch…


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

And that’s coming from a lawyer that took 25 years before realizing he couldn’t make his wing chun work? (Either one is dumb is h*ll, or is flat out lying…) What I can do in Chi Sao, I can do in a fight, flat out!!!

You never reached that level remember; you quit and deviated all the way, because you said so many, many times on this forum…

Ali Rahim.

If you can do in a fight ("flat out!!" as you say) what you do in chi sao, then that should be very easy to prove. Anyone can claim anything. And, in fact, many WCK people believe the same as you do. But claiming skill and believing you have skill isn't the same thing as having skill. Just as being able to do something while not fighting is not the same as being able to do it while fighting. As I said, go find some nonWCK guys your size, who are in decent shape, have some decent skills (muay thai or MMA), and fight. Calling me names doesn't prove your claims.

[Ali. R]

You will never reach that level of understanding because you quit (after 25 years of training, when you should of had it way before that), and have no interest in training in chi sao… The questions that you ask will only go over your head, as it has for years from your own insubordination, deviation, for instant gratification…

You simply have no more room for more information, because you had never digested anything from the start of your training, and you are never seen executing anything, (training for 25 years and quit…) and I believe that’s a smart move on your behalf, and then you speak bad about something, and you cant bring up visual proof of anything, but always demanding that kind of proof as a countermeasures of justification …


Ali Rahim.

[Matrix]

It must be spring..... 'cause we're going around the same mulberry bush again. :rolleyes:

[Matrix]

You will never reach that level of understanding because you quit (after 25 years of training, when you should of had it way before that), and have no interest in training in chi sao… The questions that you ask will only go over your head, as it has for years from your own insubordination, deviation, for instant gratification…
Ali,

Don't waste your breath. He already knows it all.

Peace,
Bill

[Ali. R]

Ali,

Don't waste your breath. He already knows it all.

Peace,
Bill


;):cool:;)

[SAAMAG]

I have stance control and body connection to the floor, show me anywhere on one of my clips where I’m doing wing chun, where I use force and size… Just pull up one clip… That’s if you can find one, here we go again with the old switch er-rooh…


Ali Rahim.

I'm not worrying myself with all that Ali, this thread isn't about you. But what I meant about your size was not that you had incorrect form, but that due the simple kinetic theorem of force being mass times velocity squared (F=MV2), you will naturally have a more powerful hit relative to a smaller person. That's not a bad thing, as we're all built with different stuff.

ANY clip I pull up of you doing wing chun will show you using force derived from your size. Why? Because you can't separate it from your being, it is an inherent part of human physics.

Saying that "not once did you use force or size" simply isn't correct since anytime you move your limbs in any sort of strike you're using force--you're moving mass at a certain velocity and the more mass that is moved the more force you will develop...that's all there is to it.

Again, my opinion stands that chi sao is a great drill, but like any drill--it's limited compared to the live event that it is meant to prepare us for. I still believe that the flippy hands are a detrimental byproduct for those that chase the hands, and I believe it's a matter of being realistic and truthful with oneself on whether or not those said techniques will work.

Go hit a heavy bag with a elbow sourced chop, and then hit it with a full bodied cross...the results are going to be a universal truth.

[Ali. R]

As I’ve proven many times here before of this forum, if one truly has heart and understanding of his art, then a man should have a greater chance against those physical odds… Growing up in the city of Detroit I have known this and seen this all my life; it’s not the size of the dog, but the heart that’s carries him through the fight… WTF… Just fight back!!!

It seems to me that only the tough cowards worry about size, a real man could care less and will execute accordingly... If a smaller man is truly educated in the ideal of fighting then the bigger man with less education will almost catch hell every time, but its no way that the bigger man will take advantage… And the out come of ones techniques is based upon ones grace under pressure through his understanding…


Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

You will never reach that level of understanding because you quit (after 25 years of training, when you should of had it way before that), and have no interest in training in chi sao… The questions that you ask will only go over your head, as it has for years from your own insubordination, deviation, for instant gratification…

You simply have no more room for more information, because you had never digested anything from the start of your training, and you are never seen executing anything, (training for 25 years and quit…) and I believe that’s a smart move on your behalf, and then you speak bad about something, and you cant bring up visual proof of anything, but always demanding that kind of proof as a countermeasures of justification …


Ali Rahim.

This is the more of your switch-er-roo. You put all kinds of video clips up showing how you can do forms, drills, etc. in an attempt to impress people. When I say this doesn't show skill -- which is the ability to do it in fighting (my central point on this thread) -- you say, you can do in fighting what you do in chi sao. Anyone who fights will know better. That you say so already tells me you don't fight. And instead of putting one clip up that shows what you can or can't really do (which, of course, I knew you'd never do), you begin attacking me (which is, of course, what I expected -- what else can you do?). Bit it's not about me, I'm not making any claims -- you are. It's not about my understanding or lack thereof -- it is about skill. Performance ability. Being able to do it, not talk out your @ss about it.

WCK isn't about "knowledge" or "understanding" anymore than boxing or wrestling is about "knowledge" or "understanding". In fact, when people start talking in those terms, I know they are on the magical mystery tour. When you can't sell skill, and you want to sell soemthing, you start selling something else -- fantasy knowledge and understanding. But this isn't theoretical physics where answers go over anyone's head. Like any other fighting method, it is about skill, physical skill. Skill comes from doing it, not from not doing it. You don't become a good boxer or a good wreslter or good in WCK by not boxing or by not wrestling or by not fighitng. You can't see how good someone's boxing is, how good their wrestling is, or how good their WCK is, except through performance -- fighting. This is common sense in any other physical activity, sport, etc.

[guy b.]

Terrence is 100% correct. I don't see why anyone would take this as an insult, it's just a fact of life. You could claim to be good at WC drills if you like Ali, but that is a different thing from being good at fighting. And nobody has seen any clips of anyone fighting on this thread

[Ali. R]

This is the more of your switch-er-roo. You put all kinds of video clips up showing how you can do forms, drills, etc. in an attempt to impress people. When I say this doesn't show skill -- which is the ability to do it in fighting (my central point on this thread) -- you say, you can do in fighting what you do in chi sao. Anyone who fights will know better. That you say so already tells me you don't fight. And instead of putting one clip up that shows what you can or can't really do (which, of course, I knew you'd never do), you begin attacking me (which is, of course, what I expected -- what else can you do?). Bit it's not about me, I'm not making any claims -- you are. It's not about my understanding or lack thereof -- it is about skill. Performance ability. Being able to do it, not talk out your @ss about it.


There are many that can and some who cant… You’re a trip and you got the nerves too keep asking for a clip when you don’t even study wing chun, anything that I put up you would have to object too, there will always be a switch…

I don’t make claims and if you think I cant fight then that’s understandable, considering your bad experiences with wing chun, by given up 25 years of your life for only confusion…

You really wouldn’t know it if you see it… Remember, you quit through deviation, in saying; you were far lost before you even got started good…

I’ve put up a lot of clips; it’s your turn now… And if you think these people here are so slow to think that I have a problem with fighting and using wing chun… T I know you’re a lawyer and I respect that its hard work, but I just couldn’t let you defend me EVEN IF IT WAS FOR FREE, Pro-bono ...


Ali Rahim.

[guy b.]

Ali, there isn't anything to argue about. You've put up lots of clips of drills. Nothing wrong with that, but it isn't fighting and it isn't possible to discern fighting skill from clips of drills being performed. This is all Terrence seems to be saying and as far as it goes he is correct. There is no need for you to be angry or try to disparage terrence's skill (which none of us have seen). It just makes you look petty

[SAAMAG]

Yeaaaa...that about sums it up.

Most of what people talk about on here is theoretical or political mess, and now there's another group of people here who have a simpler outlook on things that are backed up by science, physics, and just common sense.

I think that's where the clash starts to happen, the rift between the two worlds is no longer so large, and although it's going to take some growing pains on one side or the other, the truth will eventually come out.

Hopefully no one is actually getting "upset" by any of this talk, since after all, it's just the internet.

[LoneTiger108]

Hopefully no one is actually getting "upset" by any of this talk, since after all, it's just the internet.

:)

I think this thread is a prime example of how the subject just gets sidelined by everyone to help propogate their own views.


You see, this is the problem. Wing chun is fighting. It is not moving around (including "stance control and body connection") in nonfighting situations, like chi sao.

Classic! :rolleyes: I'm so bored...

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issue is actually real simple.

When someone says that WC is about fighting and only fighting is what matters ( more or less) those that have used WC in a fight say that "their WC works just fine".
So the other issue becomes what constitutes NOT a "real fight", but a REAL test of ones fighting skill.

[LoneTiger108]

So the other issue becomes what constitutes NOT a "real fight", but a REAL test of ones fighting skill.

If I suggest that within a chisau framework you can experience a multitude of attacking combinations etc, all from within a 'contact' environment, surely this is how to develop more skills for fighting (at this range of course)

[sanjuro_ronin]

If I suggest that within a chisau framework you can experience a multitude of attacking combinations etc, all from within a 'contact' environment, surely this is how to develop more skills for fighting (at this range of course)

More skills for fighting who?

[LoneTiger108]

More skills for fighting who?

Other Wing Chun people of course!! :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Other Wing Chun people of course!! :eek:

Why would you want to do that??

[LoneTiger108]

Why would you want to do that??

Exactly! Do you really think I personally want to compete with my family?? :confused:

Some people do, and I understand that. To me Chisau doesn't exist without one practitioner being more experienced than the other. It's a 'teaching' tool imo.

Well, that's the thread gone off line again! :eek: What about you Sanjuro? Do you know Sifu Michael Louison??

[sanjuro_ronin]

Exactly! Do you really think I personally want to compete with my family?? :confused:

Some people do, and I understand that. To me Chisau doesn't exist without one practitioner being more experienced than the other. It's a 'teaching' tool imo.

Well, that's the thread gone off line again! :eek: What about you Sanjuro? Do you know Sifu Michael Louison??

LOL ! :D

This has gone beyond "one man's chi sao", this has entered the realm of "what is skill" and "skill in what".

All humour aside, while I understand that one must wet his feet in our respective style, I don't get "staying in comfortable waters".
What good is training in something that has limited use? ie: against WC people only?
I say this because you said:

Other Wing Chun people of course!!

[LoneTiger108]

All humour aside, while I understand that one must wet his feet in our respective style, I don't get "staying in comfortable waters".
What good is training in something that has limited use? ie: against WC people only?

:confused: I WAS joking!

What is skill? It is one of our 5 essential concepts (and I remember posting things like this a while ago now!)

1. Learn - Hok
2. Practise - Lien
3. Skill - Jing
4. Use - Yung
5. Change - Yik

Some people would refer to skill being a 'habit' or something that has developed so well it becomes part of our natural behaviour. Having good skill is essential to be able to use or change a technique for example (especially whilst under varied 'pressures')

According to my lil list, without good learning and practise skill just does not exist.

Does this help?

[sanjuro_ronin]

:confused: I WAS joking!

What is skill? It is one of our 5 essential concepts (and I remember posting things like this a while ago now!)

1. Learn - Hok
2. Practise - Lien
3. Skill - Jing
4. Use - Yung
5. Change - Yik

Some people would refer to skill being a 'habit' or something that has developed so well it becomes part of our natural behaviour. Having good skill is essential to be able to use or change a technique for example (especially whilst under varied 'pressures')

According to my lil list, without good learning and practise skill just does not exist.

Does this help?

Does it help?
Not sure, does it help to become proficient in a skill that is only applicable in the smallest of circumstances? or in a limited role?
I wouldn't think so.
Certainly not in the long run.
Your 5 points are well made and are common in any physical endevour.
I hazard to say that point number 5, change, tends to be forgotten by many.

[LoneTiger108]

Your 5 points are well made and are common in any physical endevour.
I hazard to say that point number 5, change, tends to be forgotten by many.

It may be worth you noting that this 'method' of learning Martial Arts doesn't come from a modern day Physical Science manual, it's a little oldskool and something that was followed systematically (especially for apprentices!)

Change is very popular today, but changing too soon (without prior understanding of the first 4 points) is useless and seems to be the way most new Martial Artists 'start' these days.

It's been a good chat Sanjuro. A nice break from the Wing Chun Chisau Competition threads I've been dropping in and out of all day! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's been a good chat Sanjuro. A nice break from the Wing Chun Chisau Competition threads I've been dropping in and out of all day!

Ditto :D

While I don't rag on "traditional" methods as much as Terrence, mainly because I have seen the value in SOME of them, I do have issues with ANY system that claims to be a "fighting" system and its practitioners either don't fight, or they fight amongst themselves or in very restricted rule sets.
I have the same issues with my beloved kyokushin ( the restricted rule set) and Judo ( training against other judoka only).
I also have concerns when a system gets judged to be "effective" based on drills rather than fighting, no one judge MT based on how they hit the thai pads or heavy bag, know what I mean?
It should make us all ask "why" when there are virtually no clips of WC in a practical fight.

[Ali. R]

Show me where I’m angry: see this is what I have been saying all along, everyone here is defending his position, and I am the only one angry (LOL)…

History will always show when a person such as myself stands up for himself or his position no matter if its physical, verbal or other wise, we are always said to come off hostel or angery… (LOL)

And told to take whatever the man gives but never debate or talk back, or you will be consider hostile and need to be controlled and set back in you place…

Entertain yourself I’m no monkey, most of you never had a street fight in your lives, I can tell by the way most of you talk… I have nothing else too prove and I’m not fighting just because you want me too… When I did want too post a clip it was rejected…

Everyone here knows you guys will say just about anything…


Ali Rahim.

[guy b.]

"A person such as yourself"? "Entertain yourself I'm no monkey"..

Ali WTF are you jabbering on about? You seem to have a persecution complex going on. I'm just commenting on this thread where Terrence is talking about drills not being fighting (true), and you responded by going on the attack and defaming his character. You appeared angry because you were attacking another poster personally for nothing, that's all.

Nobody is out to get you, just chill out.

[SAAMAG]

Show me where I’m angry: see this is what I have been saying all along, everyone here is defending his position, and I am the only one angry (LOL)…

History will always show when a person such as myself stands up for himself or his position no matter if its physical, verbal or other wise, we are always said to come off hostel or angery… (LOL)

And told to take whatever the man gives but never debate or talk back, or you will be consider hostile and need to be controlled and set back in you place…

Entertain yourself I’m no monkey, most of you never had a street fight in your lives, I can tell by the way most of you talk… I have nothing else too prove and I’m not fighting just because you want me too… When I did want too post a clip it was rejected…

Everyone here knows you guys will say just about anything…


Ali Rahim.

**And he wonders why I said let's hope no one actually gets angry about this internet stuff....

Defending your position and going on the verbal offensive are two totally different things.

[Ali. R]

You guys are just playing around right? :D

Ali Rahim.

[Mike Sheng]

Greychaun,

I no longer do chi sao just like I no longer ride my bike with the training wheels on or recite my multiplication tables. I do, however, wonder about people who do continue to do these things.

Chi sao is nothing more than a learning platform for the various contact movements of WCK. You can't develop realistic (fighting) skills via chi sao, only via fighting/sparring (realistic training). Once you've learned the movement and can perform it in the unrealistic, artificial exercise that is chi sao, it is time to move on. To stay there, to continue doing chi sao, is to stop your growth in terms of developing fighitng skills. In fact, my view is that chi sao isn't even a very good learning platform.

Of course, don't take my word for it, just go to a good muay thai or MMA school, and see if you can do in fighting those things you can do so well in chi sao. You'll see. As guyb pointed out, we never see that posted on youtube. And for a very good reason.

The goal of martial art training is to develop fighting skills, not artificial, unrealistic drill skills. You don't judge how good a boxer is except through his performance boxing or a wrestler except through his performance wrestling. The only way to see skill, to see performance ability, is by and through performance. In the martial arts, that performance is fighting. If you can't do it in fighting, you have no skill.

You haven't seen me "in action" because you haven't come to see me. If you are interested, pay me a visit. Or, make it easier on yourself and go to a good MMA or MT school and see. Either way, you'll get the same experience.

So you sort of a football linemen sort of Wing Chun style take no prisoners way.:cool:So how do you teach beginners? Chi Sao is a process.

[SunMoon]

t_niehoff

You say that Chi Sau is next to useless as training for fighting, so do you have the same dim view of wooden dummy training too? To me, both are good training tools for learning. Application in combat situations is just the next step. If we just go straight to freeform combat our techniques would be sloppy because we didn't take the time to learn the right structures and responses.

I do agree with you that many (waaaay too many) WCK practitioners keep themselves too far removed from actual fighting and delude themselves about their own abilities in this regard.

Also, if you have such a high regard for MMA, why do you practice WC at all? Please post some video of your training techniques, so that we can see what you do to learn to fight. I really would like to see this as your numerous posts are very adamant about the superiority of your way of training and it would be nice to have some context to your vociferous arguments. Is that an unreasonable request?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If we just go straight to freeform combat our techniques would be sloppy because we didn't take the time to learn the right structures and responses.

No one goes straight to free form per say, but look at boxers and wrestlers and what not, they are going at it sooner rather than later.

[k gledhill]

No one goes straight to free form per say, but look at boxers and wrestlers and what not, they are going at it sooner rather than later.

good point , is your vt like fighting ? or are you in a basic stance for x? months doing SLT not even knowing what for or even seen a knife ? :D

[SunMoon]

No one goes straight to free form per say, but look at boxers and wrestlers and what not, they are going at it sooner rather than later.

Agreed. Wing Chun schools often take too long to get to the sparring stage or application against resisting opponents (some schools never get there!), but no matter what stage you start sparring you still have to use drills or methodology to train correct use of techniques. Chi Sau is good for that (at the range it is intended for).