Butterfly Swords

[Zhong]

I read somewhere that Butterfly Swords are not a Chinese weapon; but they are used by Lau Gar and Wing Chun. What do people think? Are they defensive or only offensive?

[David Jamieson]

They are actually called Butterfly Knives or wu dip do (dao). they are chinese and so is wing chun and lau gar. as for offense and defense, they are knives what do you think they are for?

[SPJ]

yes, they are intermediate length

it is called southern blade or nan dao.

usually people practice with both hands

so they come in pair.

it is thus called butterfly double blades or hu die shuang dao.

it is very difficult to practice and very easy to cut yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fta9lg3_bAA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snln5jFU_vU&feature=related

:)

[HOKPAIWES]

They work great in my practice. In weapon sparring and training the butterfly swords are one of my top favorites. They are my top favorite to practice with actually when I really think about what time I have put into which weapons, I just couldn't live without using them every couple of days. Big fun, esp. with PakHokPai practice.

[Zhong]

Thanks, people/

I read they were called Butterfly Swords so as to distinguish them from the single butterfly knife.

What did I think they were for? Well, I know a sword is a cutting weapon and cuts/slices people, but is also used for ward off and in Sticky Swords exercises for defence as well as offensce. I know very little about the B.S. and so was wondering if they are purely for offence with little or no defensive/ward off techniques. I mean, even fans can be used to ward off.

[golden arhat]

does no one realise how stupid these people look ???


half of the movements in those forms wouldnt work

if you wanna learn how to use a knife well go to a pekiti tirsia kali teacher or an escrima teacher

if you want to learn to use a sword do fencing or kendo


its pretty obvious that however cma is teaching weapons these days its the furthest away from reality you could possibly get


i mean at least modern wushu guys look good

trad guys dont look good and there stuff doesnt work

[gwa sow]

butterfly knives can be a little awkword. kinda looks like the guy in the first clip was swatting flies :)

[HOKPAIWES]

does no one realise how stupid these people look ???





its pretty obvious that however cma is teaching weapons these days its the furthest away from reality you could possibly get


i mean at least modern wushu guys look good

trad guys dont look good and there stuff doesnt work


From the mouths of babes.. .






Zhong,

Yes butterfly swords can be used to ward off. If you havent' any large knives or B.S. to train with get 2 dowell rods or sticks and cut them to 12" long. Any martial movemnets you can do wielding those 2 rods can be done with butterfly swords, the real swords will have the advantage of not only stabbing and cutting but sturdy metal adding to the hit power and are more fun to train with. Also you can use them upside down and enter a whole differnt world of trapping just like with tonfas.

[David Jamieson]

this set is close to the way i learned. not exact, but similar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU9DMpEN0Hc

[Zhong]

Great stuff, Thanks again.
:)
Think I'll be getting some.
Looks like effective weapons that can be substitued for all sorts of things like chopsticks, etc.

[David Jamieson]

I wouldn't substitute them for anything. lol

GA- you gotta ease off on blanket statements regarding subjects you haven't wet your feet in. You and a million others that is. lol

[Lee Chiang Po]

Knife and sword fighting was pretty much it at one time in history. Staff and stick fighting too. But today, 2008, just walking about with a hand full of knives will get you attention you really don't need. Using them against another person would even get you a stretch in a penetentury. Possibly a lifetime in one. So I consider it a complete and total waste of time to even practice it. Of course if you are just doing it for tradition's sake to show it off, that is another thing. But otherwise I would not waste my time at it.

[David Jamieson]

Knife and sword fighting was pretty much it at one time in history. Staff and stick fighting too. But today, 2008, just walking about with a hand full of knives will get you attention you really don't need. Using them against another person would even get you a stretch in a penetentury. Possibly a lifetime in one. So I consider it a complete and total waste of time to even practice it. Of course if you are just doing it for tradition's sake to show it off, that is another thing. But otherwise I would not waste my time at it.

spoken like a true... someone who has never even learned a weapons set.

lol.

by your logic, nearly everything is a waste of time and one should only go and join a nuclear launch squad so that they will never practice anything so horribly antiquated.

:rolleyes:

you do realize that transposition is possible and that you could bust a broom in half and use the principles of double weapons in order to protect yourself. or, if you have staff training, you could utilize a mop in similar fashion when presented with the opportunity to do so.

I would make the comment that those who are vehemently against these things are usually the ones who don't know a lick about them other than a picture in a magazine.

whatever.

[TenTigers]

Golden Arhat-if taught correctly, Chinese butterfly knives, broadsword, gim, etc share many of the same principles and techniques as the Phillipino blade arts. I have trained "a bit" in Sayoc Kali, and Pekita Tirsia as well as TCMA, and the similarities far outnumber the differences.
When people make blanket statements, whether it is about weapons, forms, styles, techniques, whathaveyou, you need to ask,"What have you actually seen, what have you actually felt, who have you actually met, and who have you actually touched hands with?"

[golden arhat]

Golden Arhat-if taught correctly, Chinese butterfly knives, broadsword, gim, etc share many of the same principles and techniques as the Phillipino blade arts. I have trained "a bit" in Sayoc Kali, and Pekita Tirsia as well as TCMA, and the similarities far outnumber the differences.
When people make blanket statements, whether it is about weapons, forms, styles, techniques, whathaveyou, you need to ask,"What have you actually seen, what have you actually felt, who have you actually met, and who have you actually touched hands with?"

so out of interest

which system do you think has better knife training currently (not talking about techniques because well a punch is a punch right)

pekiti tersia or CLF, hung gar etc ???

plus i was commenting on those videos

which in my opinion are pretty funny looking

[TenTigers]

In answer to GA'a query, as you know, forms are a method of transferring knowledge. They are the encyclopedia, or textbook, in which a system is handed down intact (hopefully)generation to generation. Knife forms in CLF and Hung-Ga are the same thing. Each technique is extracted from the set, torn apart, extrapolated and expanded upon to create the syllabus. In FMA, there are sets as well, 12 angles, 24 strikes, templates, etc.
As far as which is superior? It's a hard question to answer diplomatically without sounding "flamish" (not to be confused with Flemish) Although the techniques are similar, FMA truly specializes in the blade-specifically PT and SK, and you will develop according to what you train more.
Conversly, if you took the butterfly knives set and concentrated soley on that, the end result would be a superior skill in the blade. Hence, it all boils down to the same thing-which is what we have been saying in the argument of TCMA vs MMA-it's not so much what you train, but HOW you train.
So the question to ask is how do you best train the blade arts in TCMA, so as to develop your skillset, as simply playing the form obviously is not the answer.
I think this topic has crossed over three threads that we argue back and forth on these forums. What is funny, is how we usually end up agreeing that it is all about training methods, etc. Then a few weeks go by and it starts up all over again!
Hey, I enjoy re-runs just as much as the next guy, but there is just so many time I can keep watching the episode where Marsha gets her nose busted.


(Now Lucy posing as the bebop jazz player and squeaking out "Glow-worm" is classic!)

[golden arhat]

In answer to GA'a query, as you know, forms are a method of transferring knowledge. They are the encyclopedia, or textbook, in which a system is handed down intact (hopefully)generation to generation



i train in mma currently and that is completely devoid of forms yest i'm pretty sure it has exactly the same depth as any TCMA same amount of moves more or less

why do you need a textbook to transfer skills

shoulnt people just learn them

i mean you dont need a book to learn how to speak english do you

[golden arhat]

i wasnt asking if PK's tech was any better than TCMA's tech, i was talking about how they both train and who's methods of teaching knife technique is most effective

which system produces more skilled knife fighters do you think?

and why is that ?

[TenTigers]

since repetition is the mother of skill, so you will obviously get better at what you do more. Since primary focus is stick and blade (stick actually representing the blade, so blade and blade) FMA most likely would have the "edge." (pun intended, cuz I'm really clever like that)

GA, out of curiosity, since you are a MMA guy. How do you remember all those hundreds of techniques, throws, takedowns, reversals, chokes, locks, submissions, strikes, kicks, methods of movement, etc? If you were to open up a school, how would you remember what to teach and in which order, and not forget anything?

[golden arhat]

since repetition is the mother of skill, so you will obviously get better at what you do more. Since primary focus is stick and blade (stick actually representing the blade, so blade and blade) FMA most likely would have the "edge." (pun intended, cuz I'm really clever like that)

GA, out of curiosity, since you are a MMA guy. How do you remember all those hundreds of techniques, throws, takedowns, reversals, chokes, locks, submissions, strikes, kicks, methods of movement, etc? If you were to open up a school, how would you remember what to teach and in which order, and not forget anything?

well

as for me remembering for myself
i dont have to remember theyre just there



and yeah for teaching others

i'd give it some thought and plan it a bit before the lesson what is to be taught. just like any other teacher does right?

[Mook Jong]

i mean you dont need a book to learn how to speak english do you

it really f@ckin helps though, especially if it's not your first language and helps record them for posterity's sake. Same thing with forms, tho this argument is already in another thread, and i don't wanna get into it.

[David Jamieson]

i wasnt asking if PK's tech was any better than TCMA's tech, i was talking about how they both train and who's methods of teaching knife technique is most effective

which system produces more skilled knife fighters do you think?

and why is that ?

where are these skilled knife fighters? what is the measure of their skill? there doesn't seem to be any record. Why is that?

blade arts have their values wherever they come from. IN the world of guns, all blade arts are rendered quaint against that gun. however, not everyone carries a gun and many carry a blade of some fashion.

I honestly couldn't tell you which is the superior way, only that there are ways and methods available in these things.

having said that, I have personally seen incorrect and invalid weapons training coming from someone who clearly didn't know what they were doing but for whatever reason, they thought it would be ok to teach.

This is the kind of person who needs to be beaten with a staff. :p