Form Creation

[Zhong]

How do you think the Forms were formulated? By a single Master or by the Master in conjunction with others? How long do you think they would take to finalise?

[David Jamieson]

Forms are always changing with each practitioner. the sequence will remain the same, but expression of one person is very difficult to manifest exactly in another.

so, the shape itself, or form is constantly being adapted and changed within it's framework as it is passed on down the line.

the forms themselves can be derived as attribute development, exercise, martial, medical treatment, spiritual attainment, internal development or of other varieties and would be constructed in context to each according to what appeared to be results. Sometimes there is a mix of several focuses. Like religious postures worked into martial forms, or frequently at the beginnings and ending s of forms, you will see bows of several moves or many that are particular to a given school from where the form came and so on.

in martial forms, structure and fighting techniques are strung together so you can train say 10 moves or 500 at a time over and over again, find and extrapolate those that you can work and maintain the rest for someone else to find as it is passed along. One could assume the techniques were extrapolated from what seemed to work in either dueling or fully full on to the death type techniques.

So, at the first point, a form is developed by a single person but, it is developed because there is prior knowledge (without prior knowledge/experience and application of same the form is useless and bound to die anyway, so not discussing made up with experience techs etc etc.). However, sometimes a theoretical form is developed that has some merit and it is refine on the forge of combat and change as needed.

so, in short.

1. see above
2.see my last paragraph
3.they are never final (see 1 and 2)

[SPJ]

forms are consisted of a number of postures or shi.

forms may be changed to serve your training needs.

forms are not a final product per se.

it flows with the practitioners.

over time, more postures may be added or modified.

--

[Zhong]

I asked because I know a lot of people are particular as to whether a Form is 'genuine' or not. But all forms were new at some point. And I read that a Fan form was created by some official Chinese government martial arts school back in the 50s or 60s. It seems that Fan Forms are relatively new Forms (within the last 40 years or so), yet seem to have been adopted by many systems.

[GLW]

Fan was sort of a neglected weapon. It has the elements of short staff and some of an edged weapon...and if you have one with the hidden dagger, elements of dagger moves.

Traditionally, it was pretty much ignored.

While I can't speak for new China, I can offer some minor insight from Madame Wang Jurong.

She would typically begin any area of learning in a private class with one or two sessions on the history of the thing you were about to learn. For fan, she mentioned that traditionally, many public places had a sort of "Check your weapons at the door" policy. Understandably, they did not want duels breaking out in their places of business.

However, many of the old masters, while agreeing with this idea, were not really keen on the idea of being at a disadvantage in a public place - after all, just because YOU checked your weapons doesn't mean someone else did.

So, there were hidden or concealed weapons. In a story from one of Madame Wang's daughters, while accompanying her grandfather, Wang Ziping, he moved his arm a certain way and a dagger fell out. He then explained to his granddaughter that one should always be prepared, replaced it and the went on.

Madame Wang also spoke of how it was not uncommon for a gift of a fan with calligraphy or painting on it to be made from one person to another. So, with this in mind, it was not a far stretch to use the fan as a hidden backup weapon.

Intrigued with this history, Madame Wang Jurong formulated it with her own understanding and created a set of 6 fan routines. These included a Taiji Single Fan, Taiji Double Fan, Taiji Fan Duei Lin (2 person set), a Kung Fu Single Fan, a Kung Fu Double Fan, and a Kung Fu Fan Duei Lin.

The Kung Fu fans were based upon here broad knowledge of mainly norther systems such as Chaquan. The Taiji Fan sets were based upon her broad knowledge of the 5 major styles of Taijiquan.

They are essentially traditional in flavor but were created in the second half of the 20th century. Her daughters (and especially Helen) continue teaching these routines).

So...in a nutshell, Madame Wang created hers because there was a history but no real collection of methods. She also LIKED the fan and recognized it for something that you could carry anywhere.

As for other styles or methods...your guess is as good as mine.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gpL1_Whs4M&feature=related

for fan's fans.

it is tai chi open hand forms.

yes you may add fan to the open hand forms.

you may also add a straight sword or a short dagger.

most of the moves are the same, but with a bit change with the weapon chosen.

:)