Yiu Choi Lineage

[kup choi]

Hi can any one give me info on the Yiu Choi Lineage of Wing Chun?

Thanks

[zuti car]

Yiu Choi s first Wing Chun teacher was Yuen Chai Wan, the elder brother of Yuen Kay Shan. He started in 1820 and studied with him until Yuen moved to Vietnam, in 1936, after the death of his Sifu Fung Siu Ching. Before he left, Yuen introduced Yiu Choi to Ng Chung So,disciple of Chan Wah Shun, to continue his studies.In some accounts, Yiu Choi, also studied under Chan Wah Shun
.Yiu Choi trained under Ng Chung So for a decade until he retired, and Yiu Choi moved him into his home and cared for himfor another 10 years, in exchange for training for he and his son Yiu Kay. Ng Chung So lived and was cared for until he passed away. Yiu Choi taught Wing Chun Kuen to his son, Yiu Kay, and Go Bing and Fok Joy.

Here some clips of Yiu Choi Wing Chun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6dNihA1aCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEy5Ur93RBc

[PalmStriker]

:) Will post some reference links that include demo vids, history of the lineage style/Family, and also demo vids of the lineage sect I have an association with. FIRST, the Family style SLT form : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6su5fLj1G5Y

[wckf92]

:) Will post some reference links that include demo vids, history of the lineage style/Family, and also demo vids of the lineage sect I have an association with. FIRST, the Family style SLT form : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6su5fLj1G5Y

Awesome vid. Thx PalmStriker! You always dig up and post very interesting stuff!!! I saw some commonalities in that guys SLT form. Very interesting! Keep em' coming!

[PalmStriker]

:) There are a number of vids produced by the Yiu Choi family from their school in Foshan but there were other disciples of Yiu Choi that were teaching in Hong Kong when Ip Man established his school there, mostly under the radar. The sect I am associated with only trained a husband/wife couple (Americans) starting in 1981 in Hong Kong in the complete system that were the first non-Chinese to receive instruction from their lineage. If you are familiar with the Family style, you will be able to note some of the differences in the SLT form practice. They didn't open up to the public until these videos/instructional DVD's arrived on the internet 30 years or so later. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw3IhBXLAk0&list=PL90E3F2F2D71B0061

[PalmStriker]

:) Demo vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTrR6_-LKkk

[PalmStriker]

:) Demo vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4PcdY8R7po

[PalmStriker]

:) Master Fok Chiu who is Master Yiu Choi's last disciple also set up in Hong Kong and taught WingChun. This school and the more underground sect posted earlier would only show and practice "Ip Man Style Wing Chun" openly when working out in the parks around Hong Kong. Times are different now, but back then, there were codes to be followed. This is still in effect with some existing Kung Fu lineages. This I know, personally. You have to respect their privacy. ~ Grandmaster YIU Choi (Fok Chiu's master)
Yiu Choi (Yao Cai) was born in the 16th year of the reign of the Guangxu Emperor (1890) and died in 1956. Nicknamed ‘Strong Choi’, his name was bestowed upon him due to his surprising strength.

Once, with his arm outstretched, he could easily lift up a big basket of rice by his wrist, just by using his wrist power. Yiu Choi’s one punch carried 460lbs of impact; his inch punch could break stone tiles, his bong sau broke the arm off of a wooden dummy. Later under the guidance of Ng Chung So, Yiu switched to the bamboo dummy to develop softness. As a result, Yiu Choi’s sensitivity and ‘stickiness’ in chi sau improved tremendously. Softness within hardness, and hardness within softness is one of the distinguishing features of Yiu lineage Wing Chun.

Yiu Choi studied under the tutelage of renown Foshan Wing Chun master, Yuen Chai Wan. Later he continued his training as a student of Ng Chung So. Alongside Yiu, Yuen Kay Shan and Ip Man all took pointers from Ng. Later on, Yiu Choi also received guidance from Kok Bo Chuen (who spent his time between Qinzhou, Guangxi and Foshan). As a result of his comprehensive knowledge, Yiu Choi was able to distill the essence of all his teachers and subsequently, his skills developed tremendously.

At the time the reputation of Yuen Kay Shan, Yiu Choi and Ip Man were so well known they were called the ‘Three heroes of Wing Chun’. Today, the descendants of Yiu Choi are numerous, many with outstanding skills, found throughout the world.

Fok Chiu is the last of Yiu Choi’s first generation disciples. He has been teaching students in Hong Kong and China for the last sixty years. His students have spread far and wide, to the US, the UK, France, Canada etc.

http://hongkongwingchunschool.weebly.com/

[Eric_H]

Hey thanks for sharing the links guys, it's always interesting to see another relatively unknown lineage highlighted.

I've got a lot of disagreements with how their SNT plays in terms of structure, but would prefer to put hands on it before making any final judgements - are there any schools in the USA?

Best,

[PalmStriker]

Yiu Choi Wing Chun is noticeably different than the Yuen Kay San Wing Chun. Most likely contributed to the many years Yiu Choi spent training under his 2nd Sifu Ng Chung So. Yiu Choi, Yuen Kay San and Ip man were all about the same age but Yuen Chai Wan (Yuen Kay San's older brother) was born in 1877, 12-13 years older than the three. https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/04/03/guest-post-at-wing-chun-geeks-ng-chung-so-looking-beyond-the-three-heroes-of-wing-chun/

[Marnetmar]

Can I ask why Fok Chiu does SLT basically like the Yip Man version, with no rolling Kwun Sau or Sup Jee Sao or really anything characteristic of other Yiu Choi/Yuen Kay San forms that I've seen?

Yiu Choi SLT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6su5fLj1G5Y

Yuen Kay San SLT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uGbSvl68RE

Typical Yip Man lineage SLT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wTa5BKV_-k

Fok Chiu SLT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JofHiooprQk

[PalmStriker]

:) My thoughts are that Ip Man had established himself and "Wing Chun" in Hong Kong during a time that was very competitive in securing students among Kung Fu Masters who had established schools open to non-family members. Fok Chiu as well as other WingChun lineage teachers were not open back then with teaching the public family-only style, they would openly only teach what Ip Man was showing. Ip Man was respected by them for who he was. There were lineages besides Yiu Choi (Tang Yik for instance) that were probably also guarding their family styles. Master Ip Man was the unprecedented "foot forward".

[mawali]

Not much to add but I studied (taijiquan) with Sifu Arthur Chan (main forte was Wing Chun) in New Orleans, LA around 1978 and according to what I recall, he stated that Ip Man was a forthright individual who spoke out and showed his art when everyone else was "hiding', refusing to teach to the greater public, and he accepted challenges that upheld Wing Chun and made it a household name. When the other masters of the day realized how "straight up" this strategy out, they slowly came out of hibernation then all the cats came out of the bag at ocne proclaiming theirs was the true Wing Chun and the rest is history.

[PalmStriker]

:) Continuous Fists : :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7k1N8kxvE0

[Xian]

:) Continuous Fists : :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7k1N8kxvE0

Thanks. This video motivated me to look over the forms that he does once again and I noticed it is the same as Yiu Choi. I didnt knew that, the Subtitle to his vides used Mandarin translations.


Best Regards,
Xian

[PalmStriker]

:) hey, Xian! The teacher in the vid you posted is a disciple of the same master (student of Yui Choi / Foshan) as my own teacher (1983). The closed door school was low key in Hong Kong and had no Western students until allowing access to a husband and wife couple (martial artists) from the U.S. in 1981. Master Fok Joy (Yui Choi's last student from Foshan) was teaching openly in Hong Kong in the days of Master Ip Man and would have known each other. He still has a school there (as well as others) but is in retirement now. The Dragon'sBlood Red silk top / Black pants are the family's colors. You will see youtube vids of Yui Choi's grandsons dressed in this fashion, as well as Master Fok Joy and his lineage representative in Hong Kong (knives vid). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GMB34BaCvk

[PalmStriker]

Master Fok Joy in Hong Kong : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSgeDpItfQ8

[PalmStriker]

:) Master Lin Ruiwen (disciple of Yui Choi) taught in Foshan and secretively in Hong Kong. REFERENCE :

Wing Chun Quan of Lin Wenrui System in Foshan
A Talk of Wing Chun Quan between Xie Guozheng and Xie Guohui
Our teacher Lin. Ruiwen was a doctor. He became one of Yao Cal's disciples at his age of 29 studying Wing Chun Quan together with his brother, Lin Ruibo. Ruiwen with his taller stature had been playing the Quan more powerful and vigorous showing his forceful strength in pliancy and softness having got better control in fighting.
We had learned Wing Chun Quan from Lin Ruiwen for 40 years already. Our thoughts and understanding of Wing Chun Quan are as the following. There have been many people learning and practicing Wing Chun Quan in Foshan City. Several schools of the Quan and lots differences between them do exist for several years. The main difference would be either harder or softer in practicing all the movements of the Quan. Mr. Lin always emphasized the great importance of inner pliable strength in practicing with one's body quite flexible and loosen totally as pliable as a spring. The focus in practicing Wing Chun Quan is not the fierce force but the inner pliable strength. Dynamics and fulcrum must be considered and practiced in daintily. The point attacked by your force is always asked to be artful in nicety, Sending out any force with inner pliable strength should be with one's wrist and the point his wrist force is hitting skillfully and accurately.
There is a sort of Kung-fu of the Quan named Xiao shou (eliminating the attack made by the rival's hand) since "xiao" means eliminating. "Xiao shou" refers to the skill in eliminating the attacks sent by your rival. It is much more difficult than attacking. Xiao Nian Tou (small idea) being one of the three sets of the Quan is Xiao Lian Tou indeed. "Xiao" means the primary stage in practicing, "Lian" means practicing and "Tou" implies being the first. These three Chinese characters means that beginners should have their practices of this fistic routine first.
Marked Traits of the Lin Ruiwen
School of Wing Chun Quan
1. Jiu Quan (a kind of boxing in relaxing all the joints of your arms and shoulders): Make the joints of your arms more flexible in agility being much easier and faster in sending out your Jin (forces) and in devoting in onset. It is a basic Kung-fu of Wing Chun Quan.
2.Tan Yao (relax your waist by laying open your Qi nearly over all): Keep the center of your gravity onto your waist. Keep your Shou Qiao (forming a bridge by your hands) flexibly in sensitive agility in your upper part with changeful footsteps to be easy and excellent both in stepping forward and backward in line with all the demands for attacking or defending.
3.Quan Quan (circumvolve your fist drawing a circle):
Circumvolve your hand drawing an angle of 360 in the air making your wrist much more relaxed, flexible and powerful having your attacking in lots of different varieties. Prcticing this movement regularly to and fro, you can finally feel your Qi (your interior breathing and strength) flowing through onto your fingertips. It is generally considered that arriving at the stage in practicing Kung-fu for a player will be ranked highest among the Kung-fu in attacking and defending sent respectively by his fingers, palms and fists.
Lin Ruiwen's Wing Chun Quan is built up on the following basis: Xiao Lian Tou (little practicing head), Xun Qiao (searching for a bridge), Biao Zhi (marking fingers). The typical weapons of this school are Wing Chun Er Zi Dao (two letters falchion), Liu Dian Ban (six and a half points) Gun (pole) and Ren Zhu Chuang (a kind of pegs made of bamboo in tenacity) while all the Wing Chun weapons combined with the three mentioned above have made its system well-knitted. The strength in Wu Zhou Wei (spurted out from the position of your elbows timed by a number of five) Duan Qian (short bridge) would ease some straight attacking sent by you mak ing the Tao Lu (the sets of Kung-fu movements) better than the old in compact proficiency as well. Soft and fair goes far. You keep your forces moving sidelong to eliminate the straight hitting sent by your opponent and have your softness to overcome any or all hard coming attacking. Your waist and your Ma (stance) should be associated together in one keeping your stepping forward or backward in a most agility extending in good taste and in decency so that you could win your opponent easily.
The Set of Xiao Lian Tou
Note: You should begin with this set
1. Kai Zhuang Ma (opening peg with your horse-riding stance): Jiu Quan (hold tight your fists) Tan Yao (relax your waist with your Qi spreading over), Xia Shi Zi (downward cross), Shang Shi Zi (upward cross) and then Zhou Quan (get all your movemen's over)
2. Ri Zi Chong Zhong (hit with Quan Zhang, that is circumvolve your palm at an angle of 360 degree) and Shou Quan (get over)
3. Fo Zhang (Buddha palm): play the above movement for three times then Pai You (pat you right part) Tan Zuo (spring your left hand upward) turn your attacking to Zhi Zhang (straight palm), Quan Zhang (circumvolve your palm) and Shou Zhang.
4. Dun Zhang (hitting with your palm in frusta as half-squat stance): Practicing it in four directions, left, right, backward and forward, Sha Zhang and Shou Zhang.
5. Shuang Tan Shou and Shuang Fu Shou: Shuang Biao Zhi (double hitting with your fingers like sending two darts), Shuang Fu (double pronting) and Shou Quan.
6. Zhi Zhang: hitting with your left palm first attacking your right side and flipping your left side then turn your movement into Zhi Zhang (planting palm) to your front, Quan Zhang and Shou Quan. The movements in left and right styles are the same.
7. Tan Fu Zhou (move your hands with your Qi spreading over and pronate them then): Tan Fu for three times, circumvolve your hand drawing a half circle turning into Heng Zhang (by-blow) hit out then Quan Zhang and Shou Quan. The left style and the tight shall be the same.
8. Pang Shou: Gong (bowing) first and then Ba Zheng also having a joined name, Gong Zheng. Hitting by Di Zhang (palm from the bottom of your body ), Quan Zhang and Shou Quan.
9. Xiao Shou (cutting your opponent with your palm in left style and the fight for three times each and than take Lian Huan (interlinked) San Chui (three hammering) hit your opponent from your upper part, the middle and the lower and, Shou Quan.
10.Shou Shi(stop the movements and return to your initial stance)
The Set of Xun Qiao
1. Kai Zhuang Ma (start on your horse-tiding stance like a stake): Jiu Quan (holding tight your boxing), Tan Yao, Xia Shi Zi, Shang Shi Zi and Shou Quan.
2. Ri Zi Chong Zhuang: Gui Zheng, Dui Xin Zhi Chu (attack your opponent's breast where his heart is located with your straight hitting), Quan Zheng (circumvolve your palm) at an angle of 360 degrees and Shou Quan.
3. Shuang Xun (double seeking) Qiao Shou (have a bridge stance with your hands): Do Gui Zhen for three times, turn your wrists forward in the upper direction and the down.
4.Jiao Zheng: Zhuan Ma (change your horse-riding stance), Yao Jin (make forces by your waist) and do Jiao Zheng in the left direction and the tight for three times respectively.
5. Gong Tan Shou (bowing and punching your palm): Do Yi Bang (one arm) Yi Tan (one spreading), circumvolve your hand in the left direction and the tight for three times respectively being the same.
6.Tan Fu Shou: Do it for three times and then take Zheng Ma (horse-tiding stance facing your front), Sha You Zhang (chop your opponent with your right palm), Pi Zhong Lu (punch in the middle line) and Shou Quan while the left style is the same as the tight.
7. Gao Di (higher and lower) Pang Shou (arming with your hands): Do Zhuan Ma, Cuo Jiao (subdue your opponent with your kicking), Qi (raise) Gao Di (higher and lower) Bang (arms) Jing Ma (advance your horse-tiding stance) for three times, Jian Huan (interlinked) San Zhi Chui (three straight hammering) and Shou Quan. The left style is the same as the right.
8. Shuang Bang (double arms) Tan Shou (make your hands spring up): Do Zhuan Ma, Cui Jiao, Qi (start on) Tan Bang (make your arms spring up) Jing Ma (advance your horse-riding stance) Di Bangand Jing Ma for three times, Shuang Fu (double bending down) Shuang Tui Zhang (double pushing with your palms) and Shou Quan. The left style is the same as the fight.
9. Pai Zhang (pat your opponent with your palm): Do Zhuan Ma, Pai Zheng Zhang (pat your opponent with your palm face to face) in left, tight middle, upper, middle and downward directions each in three hitting with your fists and Shou Quan
10. Shou Shi (stop your movements returning to your initial stance). https://www.ecrater.com/p/34413530/traditional-martial-arts-wing-chun?gps=1&id=102393842419&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIh4--obS_7AIVStbACh39iQbQEAQYBCABEgJpUPD_BwE and:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTzuF7f09zQ

[Runlikehell]

Lin Rui Wen/Lam Seoi Man Wing Chun had a representative teaching in Sydney, Australia in the recent past. I don't know the name of the Sifu, their generation, or if they still teach, but seeing Lam Seoi Man's name reminded me of it.

Thanks for the thread, and posts. Highly informative.

[PalmStriker]

:) Twelve San Sik : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKF2lycP8zo

[PalmStriker]

:)Specialties from the Red Boats : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jg0PC6s2t8

[PalmStriker]

:) Master LEUNG JAN : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leung_Jan

[PalmStriker]

:) On the Mainland (Foshan), Yui Choi Wing Chun is known as "Snake Style" Wing Chun. Here is a video demo of Yui Choi family "Snake San Sik" form. I believe this form is limited to the family practice. There is also a closed door Southern "Snake Style" old family lineage that is said to be very "Wing Chun-like" in their practiced movements. I was in touch with one of their members on this forum some years ago and was told that they wish no publicity and so I won't mention them by name. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_H_8l830yA and:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTzuF7f09zQ

[PalmStriker]

:) Video showing Yuen Chai Wan Wing Chun lineage in Vietnam, including an old photo of one of the two Imperial Marshalls who taught Red Boat Wing Chun to the Yuen Brothers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tddZP_KdHtE

[PalmStriker]

:) YKS Style Arrow Punch : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE6mRpyFv4U

[PalmStriker]

:) Sap Yee San Sik : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5mC2QS_4fU

[T.D.O]

:) YKS Style Arrow Punch : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE6mRpyFv4U

What's the thought behind the arrow punch, if don't mind me asking?

[PalmStriker]

:) This side-body sliding footwork in the video reminds me of Xingyi style Kung Fu , both obviously used for offensive extended strikes. Master Leung Jan is known to have taught the WingChun side stance usage also after he retired back to his home village from his practice in Foshan. I don't practice this striking/ footwork but find it interesting to see it incorporated as part of the YKS style repertoire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-g2H8RIVC4

[T.D.O]

:) This side-body sliding footwork in the video reminds me of Xingyi style Kung Fu , both obviously used for offensive extended strikes. Master Leung Jan is known to have taught the WingChun side stance usage also after he retired back to his home village from his practice in Foshan. I don't practice this striking/ footwork but find it interesting to see it incorporated as part of the YKS style repertoire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-g2H8RIVC4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B1RlwzKAcnI

the cha wah shun lineage also seems to do it in what they call the "100%" slt

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo

which, looks to me like the 4th form others have..?

[T.D.O]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nqVthX1TV5s

not the 4th form I was talking about, but found this.. :confused:

[PalmStriker]

:) Sorry. Don't know anything about a 4th form in the WingChun fist non-weapon routine. It's common knowledge that Master Ip Man taught a more diverse regimen to his first students in Foshan (Mainland) before teaching in Hong Kong. (under duress). From what I can see, he did streamline his Hong Kong style to NOT include techniques from other Southern styles that had been incorporated early on (Red Boat Opera performers of various style affiliations). * Reading the notes from the last vid you posted, I see from the comments section that Master Ip Man's son, Ip Ching created the form as a compilation (essence) of the WingChun non-weapon forms (3).

[T.D.O]

I noticed the comments section after posting, apparently it's a competition form.. I've never heard of it or seen it before... the 4th form I refer to is in 2 lineages from leung Jan... I know it's called the "bagua" form because you move in 8 directions, I think its budda hand wing Chun that calls it that, the other one is lo kwai wing chun which doesn't have a name for it... it has stepping and hands from all the forms supposedly... funnily ip ching tried to add back in something that was removed :D

[PalmStriker]

:)Doctor Leung Jan was Master Ip Man's teacher/Sifu's Master in Foshan. I read online material from interviews with Ip Man's original students in Foshan that before he fled to Hong Kong he taught them the "Bagua stuff" back then. Different times. .... dangerous times to live in China if you ended up on the "wrong side" of turbulent politics. * Also, the footwork in the video is not Bagua style circle walking but still WingChun style footwork, even the sliding. Personally, I have always said that I consider the general movement in the WingChun forms to be very awkward looking. That was my first impression in observing the style and can say the same of Southern White Crane form practice. (And yet, these are the only two Kung fu styles I cherry-pick from that I instinctively use if confronted/need to defend myself or others (devastating full body blocks and breaking). I prefer more fluid motion but would never claim to practice something other than Southern Crane/WingChun because of adopting content technique.

[T.D.O]

i know cha wah shun, was a student of leung Jan, 2 other lines that come from him still have the 4th form, called the "bagua" form ( no relation to bagua zhang ) in one of them, because you move in 8 directions, to me, in my head anyway, that would be from the center to the trigrams, kinda like the end of cws's slt. which makes me think it was the 4th form added on. obviously just a guess..




ip chings, being of his own making... isn't anything to do with it at all... just to save confusion lol

[T.D.O]

From what I can see, he did streamline his Hong Kong style to NOT include techniques from other Southern styles that had been incorporated early on (Red Boat Opera performers of various style affiliations). .

do you know which techniques he took out?

[T.D.O]

:)Doctor Leung Jan was Master Ip Man's teacher/Sifu's Master in Foshan. I read online material from interviews with Ip Man's original students in Foshan that before he fled to Hong Kong he taught them the "Bagua stuff" back then.

do you mean "bagua stuff" as in bagua zhang?

[PalmStriker]

:) Yes. At least "circle walking" from the Northern Bagua Zhang style was mentioned in one of the interviews.

[T.D.O]

:) Yes. At least "circle walking" from the Northern Bagua Zhang style was mentioned in one of the interviews.

thanks.. maybe my thoughts on the deconstructed circle walking has some merit then lol

[PalmStriker]

:) I think it must be the same as the origins of circle walking are from Taoist monks, what I read mentioned "Wu Dang" . There were other styles of Chinese MA that were practiced by WingChun lineages... such as Hung Gar and the use of the "War Palm" generated from the Shaolin Ma bu, "horse stance". Lot's of weapons were also used but gradually trimmed down to just the butterfly knives and long pole. The YKS/Yuen brothers lineage was founded on the fighting expertise of two Red Boat Opera performers that became Imperial Marshalls, one of them was also a Northern style TaijiGuan practitioner, some of which definitely shows up in some of the teachings.

[T.D.O]

:) I think it must be the same as the origins of circle walking are from Taoist monks

one book I read said that when they went to the sect where dong reportedly learned the circle walking and asked them about it, they said it was dong who taught them it.. so it seems to be a chicken and egg scenario :D

[T.D.O]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xwvvVVBCGRE

seems I'm way off.. 1st section of Buda hands 4th form

8 sections in total

[T.D.O]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xwvvVVBCGRE

seems I'm way off.. 1st section of Buda hands 4th form

8 sections in total

2nd section https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LwQmpSi3y14

[5mman]

It is a big misunderstanding that Yip Man taught some "Baat Gwa stepping form" or such to his students in Fatsaan or some secret footwork which has been now lost.

Baat Gwa refer to the 8 Triagrams and it is common for Chinese Gung Fu Sifus to use this to refer to 8 directions, i.e. moving in all directions.

There is a stepping exercise called "Baat Gwa Bo", consisting of the three types of steps found in the system. It is not a "form" in the sense of of the "Saam Tou Kuen" - SLT, CK and BZ.

There was never any "4th form" in Wing Chun, only the three practiced still today.

There is no "Fat Sao Wing Chun" in China, nor does there ever seem to have been such a thing. Thus the fourth form in that system is not an "original" Wing Chun form. What you can see in those video clips is just standard footwork patters, nothing secret, nothing lost.

What adds to the confusion is that there does indeed exist a "4th form" practised by some Yiu Choi-lineage people. However, this form is not an original form of the Wing Chun style. It was created as a combination form by a student of Ng Chun So to teach Fok Chiu and maintain his interest in learning Wing Chun - he had no patience to learn the traditional way. Fok Chiu later became a student of Yiu Choi and eventually taught this "4th form" called "Che Jing Kuen" to Yiu Choi's grandsons.

Interestingly, there are many versions of this form as Fok Chiu (and maybe his students) have developed different choreographies over the years.

What people believe is Chan Wah Shun's "SLT" with some extra part which some people here seem to think is some sort of lost form is anything but that. The things people attribut to Chan Wah Shun today, i.e. what is known here in China as "Siulam Wing Chun" or "Seundak Wing Chun" (using the "eternal" Wing character) is Chan Yu Min's (and his descendant's) curriculum. In Suendak they sometimes call the first part "Siu Lin Kuen" and the second "Sei Min Da" - it is actually two parts put together, the first part being Wing Chun, the second is from the "village style" Hung Kuen that Chan Yu Min taught in his schools in Fatsaan, Siuheng and later in Seundak.
The Yuen Kei Saan lineage was not founded by two opera-members who became "imperial marshals". Neither Fok Bo Chuen nor Fung Siu Ching were such. Fung Siu Ching was a Bo-Tao, i.e. a deputized commoner to help maintain law and order, quite different from how he is portrayed in the stories floating around on the internet, and Fok Bo Chuen was a secret society member. Neither of these were Opera performers, supposedly Fung Siu Ching trained to be one (knowing how opera performers learned their craft, back in those days, it is safe to assume that this story is very, very, very unlikely) but never made the cut and instead became a martial artist. He was never a Taijiquan master or such - this style came to Guangdong ca. 1920 and depending on which story about Fung Siu Ching you want to believe, he was either long dead by then or in SEA. If you want to believe the story that he was the "bodyguard" or "bounty hunter" for Law Bin Jeung (the Viceroy of Szechuan), the timeline given in what can best be called "the official story of Yuen Kei Saan Wing Chun" makes it impossible - Law passed away in 1869, at which time Fung Siu Ching would have been less than 10 years old... An imperial marshall and bounty hunter at 10 years of age? Not very likely, is it? There is no Taijiquan or such in Yuen Kei Saan at all, it is absolutely not in any way influenced by this style.

[PalmStriker]

:) Family Statement : https://www.ewingchun.com/wiki/history-yuen-kay-shan-wing-chun-yuen-jo-tong

[PalmStriker]

:) Interesting video showing explosive energy in old school Taiji form :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87OePXWt7rA

[PalmStriker]

:) Food for thought:

http://wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki.php/WCP/FungSiuChing

[5mman]

Palmstriker,

I understand the problem of accepting certain things I say because I am obviously just some random dude writing stuff on an internet forum, and writing something which conflicts which many consider as an authoritative go-to ressource on the internet.

But let me say this: Although it is a great ressource, it is also the cause of much confusion and leading people astray in their speculations. The information collected there is just a mish-mash of various stuff from any source the involved parties may have had access to with no verification, no vetting, no fact-checking, nothing. Theories and conclusions constructed on such information are not very reliable nor trustworthy.

I actually happen to know at least one of the persons involved in this project personally, and incidentally, he is the only one I would consider to have access to some more reliable information, the rest less so.

Unlike most others drawing on the ressource you referred to for knowledge, I am in the very fortunate position that I do not need to rely on what other people have written - I can actually go and ask the persons who wrote the articles you refer to and the people who might have told certain stories. I have been traveling to China to learn Wing Chun since 2004 and been living in Guangzhou/Foshan for a good decade and have met virtually all masters of name and rank you could possibly think of - and many others, no one in the West has ever heard of, but which nonetheless are the seniors of the various families.

Since you mention the article written by Yuen Jo Tong Sifu, I met him on many occasions. His home was just down the road from where I lived for a while, as was his school. My wife and I had lunch with him on several occasions and had the chance to discuss Gung Fu with him. He even gave us some personal copies of some articles he had written over the years. Unfortunately, he passed away a few months ago.

Now, those documents he mentions are nowhere to be found - we asked him specifically what archives he was referring to in his articles, but he dodged the question and referred us to some other articles he had written. We even asked the foremost local martial arts researcher who has access to government archives which are closed to the public if he over his 40 years of researching martial arts, but he had never seen such documents.

It is very important to understand that simply because some "offcial" story makes certain claims, it doesn't mean it is fact - very often it is quite naive to believe so.

I also know some of the seniors of the Tang Yik Weng Chun-style in Hong Kong as well as in Foshan and met a senior master of the so-called Ban Jung Siu Lam Fung Siu Ching Wing Chun in Siuheng a couple of years ago and they have quite interesting stories to tell - quite divergent ones, in fact.

If you take the story told by the "Weng Chun" people and compare it with the official "Yuen Kei Saan" story as it relates to Fung Siu Ching there are some huge discrepancies - mainly relating to the timeframe. I already explained in my previous post that if what Yuen Jo Tong wrote was true, Fung Siu Ching passing away at 73 in 1936, we can conclude that he was born in 1864ish, however the Viceroy of Szechuan he was supposed to have been working for passed away in 1869. Does it sound plausible that Fung Siu Ching was a very famous bounty hunter or bodyguard for Law Bing Jeung?

This is an example of how historical fact, if one bothers to check, shows that certain stories cannot be entirely true.


Another example is this: the article claims Fung Siu Ching taught both Yuen brothers, however this is contradicted by the Yiu Choi-family, Yuen Chai Wan-lineage and even the person who was Yuen Jo Tong's first teacher, the late master Leung Ngau, who in turn was, until his recent passing, the last living direct student of Yuen Kei Saan. According to these sources Yuen Chai Wan had already left Foshan in the very early 1930s, i.e. way before Fung Siu Ching was supposed to have been invited to teach there.

And more...

The Weng Chun style is a bit of a mess in a sense - i.e. it is not really a coherent style. It is actually a group of people who learnt martial arts from different sources, but all have one teacher in common, Fong Siu Ching. For example, Chu Chung Man actually learnt Choi Lei Fut and kept the forms he learnt (Fa Kuen, Peng Kuen, etc.), learnt pole from another source, then a dummy form and "Chong Kuen" from the Dong brothers. He taught all of this as "Weng Chun" yet the only stuff from Fung Siu Ching was what had been passed on to him by the Dongs. Something similar can be said for the Tang family Weng Chun: according to the recording of Tang Yik talking about the history of his art, a Tang ancestor called Tang Bun learnt an empty hand form ("Weng Chun Kuen"), a dummy form and the 6.5 pole from a monk ("Chi Sim") at Fei Loi temple in Qingyuan. Later, other forms were added such as the Sheung Gung Kuen, Chong Kuen, a wooden dummy form from Fung Siu Ching, which Tang Suen, Tang Yik's father picked up. Different stuff from different sources, and yet Tang Yik called everything "Weng Chun" (interestingly, this is a bit different from what his fathers other students in Mainland China do, but a different story).

So, the only stuff which came from Fung Siu Ching, if you want to go by the Weng Chun sources was a dummy form and the Chong Kuen (some say also the Weng Chun Kuen), but interestingly Yuen Kei Saan taught the three forms from Leung Jan's lineage to his students such as Wong Jing, Sum Nung, Leung Ngau, etc. not the "Weng Chun Kuen" nor the wooden dummy form of that style. So where did Yuen Kei Saan then get his three forms from? Fok Bo Chuen? Some well known facts in Fatsaan: Yuen Chai Wan was 12 years older than Yuen Kei Saan, and learnt from Fok Bo Chuen (aka Gwok Bo Chuen) as a teenager. Yuen Kei Saan was VERY young at that time... Interestingly, Yuen Chai Wan did not teach any Cham Kiu or Biu Zi forms, so we can assume that if at all, Fok Bo Chuen just taught SLT. So where did Yuen Kei Saan's other forms come from? The answer is obvious if one knows certain other stories, but as it is a sensitive issue, I shall not go into further detail here.

Virtually all official stories of various masters suffer from this kind of problems, with Yip Man there are quite a few things his followers like to believe which can be proven to be false, but since Yip Man is not the point of discussion here... Chan Yu Min is another example... Leung Jan... etc.

As far as Fung Siu Ching goes, well many stories say many things, but some local researchers have actually identified his home village, and it is not in the north of China, further he was a rather normal, very low key person.

I don't understand how anyone could possibly see the sameness of the Chen style with Yuen Kei Saan style Wing Chun - it is utterly different! The way to move and to generate power, absolutely not the same. As a 12 year practitioner of a YKS derived style and extensive exchanges and training with masters and students of that lineage in Guangzhou and Foshan, I must say that your video demonstrates very clearly that those two styles have absolutely nothing to do with each other. If we look at this from a historical approach, the Chen family martial art was first taught to an outsider from ca. 1840 - 1850 (Yang Luchan) who then went on to teach his own martial art to the public. The Chen family art remained closed - so where would Fung Siu Ching have learned this art? And how would it have found its way into the three forms of Yuen Kei Saan given the fact that Fung Siu Ching didn't teach those forms and that according to the history Fung just taught some close body skills and Kam La? And looking at the other forms which are supposed to descend from Fung Siu Ching (Weng Chun), they don't move like that at all, nor do they Faat Geng in the manner of Chen style Taiji.

Chen style in Yuen Kei Saan's Wing Chun? Makes no sense whatsoever... But of course if we believ in certain stories, confirmation bias allows us to see a lot of stuff which is not actually there.

Of course, I don't need to tell you what the YKS/SN practitioners here will tell you if you suggest their art is like Chen style Taijiquan...

It should be quite clear.

:)

As far as the speculation in the article about Fung Siu Ching you linked to, I must say it is quite a mess because it is trying to synthesize a lot of different information some of which is quite inaccurate and demonstrably wrong. It cannot be taken very seriously if you have really looked into the subject.

If people really want to know about this, I would recommend travelling to China to find information for themselves instead of blindly relying on various information picked up through articles and on internet discussion forums. Some information is good, but unfortunately most is rubbish...

[PalmStriker]

:) Thanks for shedding some light on the subject of the early formations of WingChun in Foshan, 5mman. I hope you don't mind so much that I presented those links to get you to come forward with information about family/clan lineages. Conservative researchers/authors out there are much in line with your own caution to accept publicized statements as historically true, which I can appreciate, people like yourself who have spent time in China to specifically ferret out old stories and documents. Thanks for your perspective and logic in advancing my understanding of the YKS/YCW lineage. I did not mean to infer that Chen Taiji and WingChun share any similarities other than the power generation and explosive power that is inherent in a number of traditional styles. As someone who is content with cherry- picking from Southern Crane and WingChun, I can see that the originators of the WingChun style would have been highly influenced by the already developed styles and martial philosophies around them, especially during those times of intense turmoil. * Interestingly, it is those "close body skills" and Kam La (?) that I am wondering about more than anything else pertaining to Fung Siu Ching. Where would he possibly have gained access to these acquired skills ? Reference: Take note in this material (posted below) that Fung Siu Ching is known to have had some training in the Ba Gua style and NOT Taijiguan. Due to the source of transmission, I consider this somewhat credible, in light of the WingChun Ba Gua connection/or not.
http://yunhoiwingchun.com.au/articles/general/the-imperial-marshalls

[T.D.O]

There is no "Fat Sao Wing Chun" in China, nor does there ever seem to have been such a thing. Thus the fourth form in that system is not an "original" Wing Chun form.



Thanks for the info my friend, I think you might be getting my posts and palm strikers mixed up a bit...

There certainly isn't any fat sao wing chun in China... it would be leung Jan wing chun... not sure how much or if any of this is true, but... fat sao wing chun only changed its name in the states after Henry leung (I'm sure is his name) seen wing chun, before that it was called something like chivalry first, mr leung said he was a relative of leung Jan, not sure how many family members between the 2, I'm sure their story will be on line somewhere, 4th form came from leung Jan according to him. Lo kwai, also supposedly learned a 4th form from leung Jan, and was carried through their family, not sure if it's the same form, never seen it... their story is on line.

I'm sure if you're interested, you'll give it search :)

it's all just stories to me, nothing more, if the 2 of their forms match up it may just be true... :D

[PalmStriker]

:) Hey, TDO. I don't think there was any confusion in 5mman's post about the lineage in question. He is saying that he has seen no reason to believe that the "Buddha Palm" Bagua stepping short form to be a part of any existing lineage out of Guangdong, China due to the fact that he has lived there for a good many years and has seen no indication of this. That may be the case. There are research historians in the field who may know for sure. * In any case, here is a link to a good read about the lineage Master and student, both having passed away, to date.
https://tambulimedia.com/james-cama-remembers-sifu-henry-leung/

[PalmStriker]

:) Also, TDO, there is a WingChun Sifu who is a member of this forum who may know of the informations you are looking for. That would be Sifu Redman.
https://wingchunorigins.org/post/sifuphillip-redmond-wing-chun-warrior/

[5mman]

T.D.O

I was not confused about who wrote what, I just slammed everything into one post - my apologies.

As far as the history of this Fat Sau Wing Chun I have read all information you can find about it online and watched all the videos available. Let's just say that it is pretty clear to me that it is not what it claims to be. But just looking at the videos you can deduce a lot as to its true source.

It is absolutely not an "old" or "original" type of Wing Chun.

The so called advanced stepping form clips which have been put up are nothing but simple stepping/footwork patterns most schools will teach to beginners, some schools here have created their own footwork patterns/choreographies, but these are not original forms or such. Even in Europe some Sifus have created certain "stepping forms". This is not unusual. I think, I mentioned this in an earlier post.
The Lo Kwai information available online I have looked into quite extensively as well, it is interesting and something I would love to pursue and look into in depth at some point in time. There are some odd things there which would be interesting to clear up.

There is a lot of Gung Fu which is yet unknown because its practitioners keep to themselves and do not teach outsiders, so I am pretty sure that there are some descendants of the old time Wing Chun descendants out there which no one has ever heard about. If we could find these, we might be able to find out more about the actual origin and evolution of the style we now know as Wing Chun.

:)

[5mman]

Palm Striker,

which research historians exactly are you referring to?

[5mman]

Palms Striker,

as for the information I shared, you are most welcome.

:)

You said this:

I did not mean to infer that Chen Taiji and WingChun share any similarities other than the power generation and explosive power that is inherent in a number of traditional styles."


The power generation and its method (i.e. the body mechanics) are specific to different styles, the explosive power in Chen Taiji and Yuen K ei Saan Wing Chun are not the same, they are not expressed the same way, nor is the body used in the same way.


Then you wrote this:

"As someone who is content with cherry- picking from Southern Crane and WingChun, I can see that the originators of the WingChun style would have been highly influenced by the already developed styles and martial philosophies around them, especially during those times of intense turmoil."

I totally agree!

Wing Chun was definitely not created out of a vacuum, it was indeed created with a basis in already established styles and martial arts philosophies - but it was not Fujian White Crane or some Snake style, according to what I have been able to ascertain


Next:

* Interestingly, it is those "close body skills" and Kam La (?) that I am wondering about more than anything else pertaining to Fung Siu Ching. Where would he possibly have gained access to these acquired skills ?


Well, I can tell you that I have seen nothing in my learning of YKS-type Wing Chun or from exchanging or asking different masters of the style which Yip Man Wing Chun or other schools don't have. The other students of Fung Siu Ching, the "Weng Chun" people also don't have anything particularly special in that department. It is just common southern Chinese Gung Fu techniques.


And finally:

"Reference: Take note in this material (posted below) that Fung Siu Ching is known to have had some training in the Ba Gua style and NOT Taijiguan. Due to the source of transmission, I consider this somewhat credible, in light of the WingChun Ba Gua connection/or not."

This particular source should be taken with a huge grain of salt or two. The gentleman, Yunhoi, is by all accounts a very, very accomplished martial artist, however many of his claims cannot be taken seriously. Basically, he claims to be a student of Sum Nung, but seemingly only ever met him when Sum Nung was doing a seminar in Australia. He claimed to have learnt from Sum Nung in China, but when asked for details about exactly when, how long, where exactly in China, who else was there, etc. no answer... Add to this that I asked Sum Nung's sons and some of his senior disciples from the time when this Australian gentleman could have gone to China if their father/Sifu ever had any foreign disciples/students or if anyones had ever come to train with him from abroad, they all said they never heard of such a thing. The only foreigners to have ever visited were Ngo Lui Kei's students from Canada.

A lot of the information on that site - which is unfortunately accepted by many who don't know any better as a good resource for information on Yuen Kei Saan Wing Chun - is translations from articles published in Chinese from various sources, or bits and pieces mixed and retold by the operator of that site.

Yuen Jotong does share some information about Fung Siu Ching in his articles, however in none of them he gave us, does he talk about Fung Siu Ching having been a master of Baat Gwa Jeung, all he says is that Fung Siu Ching learnt from Dai Fa Min Gam for 11 years (which contradicts the stories from the "Weng Chun" people, but that is another matter).

So where does this information really come from? Is it really a serious source?

We can approach this in a better way by looking at what Fung Siu Ching's descendants do today. In short, there is nothing Baat Gwa-ish about it! So if Fung Siu Ching had learnt any Baat Gwa Jeung, it definitely did not bleed over to any of his students as we can see today.

The claim that he would have learnt Baat Gwa Jeung is also rather odd from another perspective:

Dong Hoi Chuen (the founder of Baat Gwa Jeung) arrived in Beijing in 1864 and taught a few people there in the imperial palace. He then went to Mongolia to collect taxes for a period of ten years before returning to Beijin where he began teaching martial arts to the public.

Now, given that this art was not taught outside of the walls of the emperor's palace in Beijing until maybe 1880, where would Fung Siu Ching have learnt it? He was never an imperial bodyguard, nor did he travel to Beijing. If you want to go by the official story, Fung went to work for Law Bing Jeung in Szechuan until the viceroy's passing in 1869. After this he went to SEA and only returned to Fatsaan when he was old, and this is supposedly when he taught Yuen Kei Saan and some others.

So how could Fung Siu Ching possibly have learnt Baat Gwa Jeung?

This is an example of how crossreferencing certain things can easily dispel certain ideas and stories.

But unfortunately a lot of nonsensical stories are promoted and perpetuated because it is very difficult to ascertain whether or not information is quality or not.

[PalmStriker]

Palm Striker,

which research historians exactly are you referring to?
:) Thanks once again 5mman for clarification in some of the controversial publicized accounts regarding lineage and practices. Here is a link to one of the conservative researchers/authors out there currently active in Chinese MA studies who is well-read in the works of others, past and present. I wondered about the YKS sifu from Australia, and his claim to closed door secrecy from that Wingchun family historical line. And yes, the Leung family history seems to be key to some interesting developments from the outset of WingChun.
https://chinesemartialstudies.com/read-the-book/

[PalmStriker]

:) Interesting info : https://www.ewingchun.com/wiki/history-wing-chun-according-lo-kwai-chao-tseng-ming-and-brian-scanlon

[T.D.O]

:) Interesting info : https://www.ewingchun.com/wiki/history-wing-chun-according-lo-kwai-chao-tseng-ming-and-brian-scanlon

more here :)

http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/lo-kwai-wing-chun-q-a.131420/

[T.D.O]

more here :)

http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/lo-kwai-wing-chun-q-a.131420/

http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/bad-chi-sao-has-ruined-wc-as-a-fighting-art.131557/

[PalmStriker]

:) Funny to see that another forum is looking at the same material (Lo Kwai) concerning a lineage offshoot that migrated to Taiwan to escape the Chi-Coms. The information (post#56) handed down from generation to generation about the initial development of the WingChun style by Red Boat opera members is the only "origin story" that I have ever heard on the subject that made any sense. No flying nuns and secret agendas with butterfly knives clenched in the teeth. This account has some real pork to it. It's a good thing the lineage was able to escape the Mainland to isolate themselves, preserving their legacy from lineage thieves.

[5mman]

Palm Striker,

those researcher historians you mention will definitely not know more than I can tell you.

They are arm chair researchers, meaning that all the information is based on whatever books are available to them, they have never bee here to conduct any field research or such.

The problem is that not much information - and especially quality one - is available in books, especially not in books written in the English language.

Because the lack of field work, they can only speculate and construe theories based on the information available to them in books, they have no possibility to fact check or to dig out further information.

But even in Chinese what you can find on Wing Chun is very, very limited.

The sources those researchers mention and refer to in their work when it comes to Wing Chun in Mainland China are mainy two works, one called "Fatsaan Martial Culture" and another one, with a similar title. The first one is actually mainly about Choi Lei Fut and a little about Wing Chun. The information of Wing Chun in that book is solicited from some students of Yiu Kei, so basically the information there is from limited sources only. The other book is written by a Mrs. Jeung and is a presentation of different styles practiced in Fatsaan, so naturally none of these is covered in any depth nor is it very comprehensive. Her information concerning Wing Chun is mainly from Mr. Tang, who is probably the foremost martial arts researcher of southern arts. In Guangzhou there is of course also Professor Ma Ming Da, but he is not so much into southern arts.

All these books, and many more, I have in my personal collection, of course.

[5mman]

The book you linked to is definitely the best of its kind, and the scholarship is impeccable.

However, as I said, it is limited by its sources - or lack of them.

And some of the descriptions of some social events and status is not actual like it really was at the time. The problem is that the author(s?) have to rely on books they can read instead of interviewing people who actually lived through certain times.

Another problem I see with it is that people - because it was written by a genuine Professor and in accordance with academic standards to form and presentation - think it more authoritative than it really is.

But, nonetheless in spite of its limitations a great book.

[PalmStriker]

:) I have to agree with your assessment wholeheartedly 5mman, there is undoubtedly no substitute for having the opportunity to explore the facts at hand while being in the thick of it, in your case living on the Mainland with access to the real histories and families of these martial art styles. I greatly appreciate your willingness to expand the playing field of credibility in putting forth information that is not at all common knowledge for people who do not live there or read/speak the languages. Personally, I have no skin in the game when it comes to lineage pride or thereabouts so I am very open to hearing stories and especially logical explanations and observations that can help put the puzzle together about the people who actually developed this unique fighting system. Something I can sink my teeth into, like deem sum.

[5mman]

About this Red Boat and King Fa Wui Goon...

It figures a lot in Wing Chun histories, however there are a lot of fictitional story elements which percolate through them.

One is this burning down of the Cantonese Opera Guild Hall at Dai Gei Mei.

The truth - according to actual historical records - is that this place was not burnt down in response to the "Red Turban Uprising 1854/55" by the Qing government.

The culture of these opera guild halls (there were more than one) is quite interesting and studying this reveals what parts of the stories of old are reasonable and others which are not.

It is also very interesting to study what kind of Gung Fu was actually practiced by opera people - we interviewed some very old opera performers of the "Luen Yu Tong" (the martial role hall) of the Baat Wo Guild in Guangzhou. These guys started training to be opera performers in the 1930s and their fathers had been opera performers before them. Talking to such people, you can learn a lot about the opera culture, how they lived, how they trained, etc.

If you go to the Luen Yu Tong today, you can see the "Red Boat Dummy" on display and they still play a certain dummy form. There used to be a similar dummy on display in the Fatsaan Opera Museum, but nowadays there is just a normal type. You can still see pictures of an old opera master performing the dummy form there, though and other pictures of their training.

According to all this information, the Kung Fu practiced by the Hei Ban (opera troupes) was southern Siu Lam Gung Fu aka Lo Hung Kuen/Siu Hung Kuen/Fa Hung Kuen. Animal styles are part of this.

So it is not strange to think that Wing Chun as we know it today is actually derived from animal styles...

:)

The Lo Kwai style is very interesting because it - according to the discriptions given of it in the discussions sounds like old Hung Kuen and you can actually find these things in various branches of Wing Chun, in some more, in some less.

Which of course makes perfect sense given what I said above.

[5mman]

I also have no skin in the game as you put it.

:)

I do not care about who has the "real" history or such - these things are just interesting in case one is curious about how things developed.

I happen to be, but that is just a side thing.

The important thing - to me - is that my Sifu(s) have certain skills I would like to learn, that they can teach it to me, that they WANT to teach it to me AND - most importantly - that they are persons that I jive with on a personal level.

Original or not, doesn't matter.

:)

[PalmStriker]

:) The 4th Form / Snake Boxing , same as the San Sik form in the Yiu Choi lineage : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CngHS5lGFIo

RIVERBOAT WING CHUN GUAN : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTWmF8rU6bs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8clKgEk2A5s&list=TLPQMDgxMjIwMjAQAZhOP0dcXQ&index=2

[5mman]

Palmstriker,

another great example of how one can get some odd ideas or draw some rather wrong conclusions, if one only watches some videos whithout knowing the actual background.

I have met both of the Sifus in the videos with them, the first one is Lam Sifu in Gwongjaau, the other one is Gu Siu Nou Sifu of Dong Bin Fong, Gulo Seui Heung, Hoksaan.

Lam Sifu is an expert in multiple martialarts, his main style being Hap Ga Kuen. The Wing Chun he learnt is from a gentleman who used to be a member of the Cantonese Opera. He learnt 8 "Wing Chun" forms, Sup Saam Jong Sau, Siu Lin Tau, Pong Kiu, Sae Hok Kuen, Ng Mui Sup Baat Jhang, etc. This is very interesting too, because it confirms certain things about Wing Chun and its orgin with, if one knows about the local history and culture, are much more plausible than what is usually believed and promoted in official histories.

What he shows in this video is not "Snake style" but some snippets of the various forms and then explaining some basics of his Wing Chun (he calls it Opera style Wing Chun, not "Hard Gate" or "Hard Style" Wing Chun as what this series of videos was sold under. The publisher of the videos invented that name).

None of his forms are the same as what you called the Yiu Choi lineage "San Sik" form. I already explained what this particular form is and where it came from, but to be clear I shall repeat it here: The form you mention is called "Che Chin Kuen" or "Chong Kuen" (later in HK some people called it the 108 Che Chin Kuen) - it is NOT from Yiu Choi, but was created by a student of Ng Chun So to teach Fok Chiu Sifu, who later became a student of Yiu Choi, to fire his interest for Wing Chun and keep practicing. Fok Chiu had no patience for the usual forms, he needed something with more action to keep him interested. He had a very close relationship with Yiu Choi and later his sons and grandsons, so the grandsons adopted this form (as well as other stuff). The other students of Yiu Choi do not have this, nor another fourth form. So it is not some special, lost form.


Gu Sifu is a practitioner of his family's "Gu Ga Wing Chun", descending from Leung Jan (his ancestor was Leung Jan's neighbour in Leung Jan's hometown) - he has unfortunately become somewhat of a local tourist attraction and a lot of the things you see him show on TV shows and to groups of tourists visiting the "Leung Jan Gong Yuan" is just for that - it is not his real Gung Fu. I had the fortune of meeting him and visiting him at his home on a no. of occasions before he became really public. He has really excellent old style Gung Fu, meaning some really nasty stuff.

It is not "Riverboat Wing Chun" or such, nor was it intended to be used on a boat on a river - this segment was just made to feed the popular legend. In fact, Leung Jan taught some locals there because they were bullied by robbers on land on the way to the town to sell their stuff, enabling them to defend themselves and their goods.

But of course, only watching this kind of videos, not knowing the history of things, one might easily see certain stories or myths confirmed - and even worse connect dots and come up with "the REAL" origin of Wing Chun...

[5mman]

As far as the form demonstrated by Lam Sifu's student in the video, it is the fourth set, but in fact it is his version of the Biu Zi form (he uses another name for it) and it is the fourth set because he has a set being taught prior to the SLT.

If one doesn't know this, it is easy to assume that this is some missing fourth set and make the connection to the Che Ching Kuen practiced by certain members of the Yiu Si Wing Chun where it is also a 4th set.

...

Seems plausible if one doesn't really have the proper background information, but unfortunately it is also very, very wrong.

[PalmStriker]

:) Thanks once again for the clarification and insight into these traditionally preserved styles of WingChun, 5mman. The information you put forth is not to be obtained so easily by casual research or asking a few questions here and there. Your knowledge on these matters is quite embedded, to say the least. Thanks for clearing up the question of "snake San Sik" in the Yiu Choi lineage. Personally, I am not looking for a "4th form" in any of the Wing Chun historical lineages. That said, I would like to say that I am most inspired by seeing the demonstrations (videos) by Lam Sifu and Gu Sifu, seeing these two Masters perform their practiced arts of Wing Chun technique and form is exactly what I consider this fighting art to be all about. As far as the "creation story" goes, I think this will just remain part of the past, intriguing as it is.

[T.D.O]

the "riverboat" stuff looks a bit like praying mantis... well to me anyway.

5mman.. you certainly know your stuff, thanks :)

[T.D.O]

:) Funny to see that another forum is looking at the same material (Lo Kwai)

I had been following that for a bit, while thinking about what I read of fut sau WC, funnier to me that the 4th form pops up lol

[PalmStriker]

the "riverboat" stuff looks a bit like praying mantis... well to me anyway.

5mman.. you certainly know your stuff, thanks :)

:) You are correct about the two Masters and their martial art form, T.D.O. The video opens with the Master in the blue robe demonstrating Wing Chun Dummy, after that, the other style shown throughout the vid is not WingChun we may be familiar with but very much Southern style. * Although... 5mman posted above that this is a family style of WingChun. QUOTE: Gu Sifu is a practitioner of his family's "Gu Ga Wing Chun", descending from Leung Jan (his ancestor was Leung Jan's neighbour in Leung Jan's hometown) - he has unfortunately become somewhat of a local tourist attraction and a lot of the things you see him show on TV shows and to groups of tourists visiting the "Leung Jan Gong Yuan" is just for that - it is not his real Gung Fu. I had the fortune of meeting him and visiting him at his home on a no. of occasions before he became really public. He has really excellent old style Gung Fu, meaning some really nasty stuff.
OTE ,

[T.D.O]

:) You are correct about the two Masters and their martial art form, T.D.O. The video opens with the Master in the blue robe demonstrating Wing Chun Dummy, after that, the other style shown throughout the vid is not WingChun we may be familiar with but very much Southern style. * Although... 5mman posted above that this is a family style of WingChun. QUOTE: Gu Sifu is a practitioner of his family's "Gu Ga Wing Chun", descending from Leung Jan (his ancestor was Leung Jan's neighbour in Leung Jan's hometown) - he has unfortunately become somewhat of a local tourist attraction and a lot of the things you see him show on TV shows and to groups of tourists visiting the "Leung Jan Gong Yuan" is just for that - it is not his real Gung Fu. I had the fortune of meeting him and visiting him at his home on a no. of occasions before he became really public. He has really excellent old style Gung Fu, meaning some really nasty stuff.
OTE ,

interesting :) so you've done a bit of travelling in you time.

I keep meaning to ask what you mean when you say that ip Man's wing chun is "snake crane wing chun" ?

I have a feeling you mean the Hong Kong style by that name??:confused:

[PalmStriker]

:) No, not well traveled at all. All Wing Chun lineages are a combination of the southern Crane and Southern Snake styles. Yip Man's Wing Chun after he left the Mainland became the most streamlined, non-stylized version of the art. More Southern boxing and less animal-style in nature, like other schools, both North and South. I doubt if many of Ip Man's students identified with animal nature while learning the martial art or that it would be much of a consideration today. If you want to see what I am referring to , just take a look at the Snake and Crane styles individually as they are taught today. Very stylized (animal nature) and not so much Westernized boxing in appearance. That's all I'm saying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PCRm10thMs

[wckf92]

:) No, not well traveled at all. All Wing Chun lineages are a combination of the southern Crane and Southern Snake styles. Yip Man's Wing Chun after he left the Mainland became the most streamlined, non-stylized version of the art. More Southern boxing and less animal-style in nature, like other schools, both North and South. I doubt if many of Ip Man's students identified with animal nature while learning the martial art or that it would be much of a consideration today. If you want to see what I am referring to , just take a look at the Snake and Crane styles individually as they are taught today. Very stylized (animal nature) and not so much Westernized boxing in appearance. That's all I'm saying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PCRm10thMs


Interesting video. I wonder what she meant by "only 8 movements"?

[YinOrYan]

Interesting video. I wonder what she meant by "only 8 movements"?

Translated into American English that could be 8 directions. She's probably depending a lot on Baidu Translate that has a Hong Kong flavour AKA flavor...

[T.D.O]

:) No, not well traveled at all. All Wing Chun lineages are a combination of the southern Crane and Southern Snake styles. Yip Man's Wing Chun after he left the Mainland became the most streamlined, non-stylized version of the art. More Southern boxing and less animal-style in nature, like other schools, both North and South. I doubt if many of Ip Man's students identified with animal nature while learning the martial art or that it would be much of a consideration today. If you want to see what I am referring to , just take a look at the Snake and Crane styles individually as they are taught today. Very stylized (animal nature) and not so much Westernized boxing in appearance. That's all I'm saying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PCRm10thMs

Not a video worth watching with the sound down lol, I'll need to watch it later when there's no one to annoy.

was it ip man that westernized it? or maybe WSL? from what I read from practitioners of WSL's everything is based around the punch, though I don't really know much of the history of it all, but is there not 2 periods associated with ip Man's hk teachings??

[PalmStriker]

:) Ha! No, From what I've read it would not have been Master Ip or any of the old school Sifu's that would have popularized any of the Kung Fu arts for street fighting with emphasis on boxing. Now, WLS, William Cheung, Bruce Lee, Hawkins Cheung ... a different story. They evolved in Hong Kong developing their skills during a time when sport fighting was really starting to take off around the world, slowly but surely. Just like rock 'n roll.
* Based on interviews with Ip Man's Foshan, Mainland students (10 or so) you would have to say that they learned a more "Foshan style" and those who learned in Hong Kong, a more streamlined (civil) version of the same base art. Just as effective considering the teacher.

[T.D.O]

:) Ha! No, From what I've read it would not have been Master Ip or any of the old school Sifu's that would have popularized any of the Kung Fu arts for street fighting with emphasis on boxing. Now, WLS, William Cheung, Bruce Lee, Hawkins Cheung ... a different story. They evolved in Hong Kong developing their skills during a time when sport fighting was really starting to take off around the world, slowly but surely. Just like rock 'n roll.
* Based on interviews with Ip Man's Foshan, Mainland students (10 or so) you would have to say that they learned a more "Foshan style" and those who learned in Hong Kong, a more streamlined (civil) version of the same base art. Just as effective considering the teacher.

Makes sense, from the 2 or 3 fights that ive read about of ip Man's, he always seemed to end them with a throw, the praying mantis one and one that joy had mentioned on this site. looking at that black and white picture of WSL that you see kicking about (well I do lol) he looks more westernized in stance, and I believe done most of the teaching in ip Man's class near the end.

[T.D.O]

Interesting video. I wonder what she meant by "only 8 movements"?

I would also like her to elaborate on that, the only thing that would come to mind would be structures, maybe only 8 different types??

[PalmStriker]

:) Just received my copy (KFM entry sweepstakes win) of the publication : The Martial Arts of Vietnam by Sifu Augustus John Roe. This paperback-bound edition is an overview of the history and styles of the country and comprises mostly on researched material about the original styles that were developed before the migratory influence of outside hand to hand disciplines originating in other nations of Asian descent and cultural heritage. * I will add more to this thread about the videos I will be posting but will sign off for now and return when I have more time . Of the Yuan brothers of Foshan, the eldest had moved to Vietnam to become the greatest proponent of Wing Chun in the region. :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN_Cxlztjog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48dSa9ZAdIA

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-11/02/c_138522637.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuen_Chai_Wan

[T.D.O]

:) Just received my copy (KFM entry sweepstakes win) of the publication : The Martial Arts of Vietnam by Sifu Augustus John Roe. This paperback-bound edition is an overview of the history and styles of the country and comprises mostly on researched material about the original styles that were developed before the migratory influence of outside hand to hand disciplines originating in other nations of Asian descent and cultural heritage. * I will add more to this thread about the videos I will be posting but will sign off for now and return when I have more time . Of the Yuan brothers of Foshan, the eldest had moved to Vietnam to become the greatest proponent of Wing Chun in the region. :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN_Cxlztjog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48dSa9ZAdIA

http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-11/02/c_138522637.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuen_Chai_Wan

the second movement in the 8 brocade is off its nut lol

I like the slt... very snake like :)

[PalmStriker]

:) Hey, T.D.O. Glad you like the vids I am posting, Yes the SLT is noticeably GrandMaster Yui Choi in nature but to my surprise "very GreatGrandMaster Yuan Chai Wan" in content, overriding the trademark characteristics of Yui Choi SLT execution. When I say this, Yui Choi was the student of Master Yuan Chai Wan for his complete training in Red Boat WingChun that originated from the most skilled Masters in the verifiable WingChun Pantheon. That said, I can tell you that one can spot the lineage characteristics and signature style of the WingCun Masters in The Siu Lim Tao set more than any other display of form or technique. When I say this, I am referring to the first vid I posted showing the demonstration of the set that for most practitioners would seem (right from the git-go) unusually different from what they are used to seeing, not only in sequence but also in the emphasis or extension or lack of ... than other SLT sets performed by other school practitioners.
What I find most fascinating (to be continued)*.....

[PalmStriker]

:) The Sifu in the video appears to have a substantial background in Shaolin Qigong and Buddhist temple affiliation in Vietnam. The signature content of the SLT form he is demonstrating is very much GreatGrandMaster Yuan Chai Wan WingChun lineage style but is also quite different than Yuen Kay San transmission or Yiu Choi Foshan SLT form in some very unique ways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6su5fLj1G5Y Yiu Choi family descendant and : Yuen Kay San Successor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfCsuKc0BHs

[T.D.O]

it's funny how different, all the fook sau and bong sau, are from each other... I don't know if its just the angle, but I don't like the look of the yui choi bong

[PalmStriker]

it's funny how different, all the fook sau and bong sau, are from each other... I don't know if its just the angle, but I don't like the look of the yui choi bong

:) Having asked my instructor about bong and tan sau while learning the SLT set, the answer was " for blocking high and blocking low incoming strikes. (wox on wox off muscle memory)I asked why the repetitious fook sau sequence and was told that, within the lineage it is known as "Little cannon " and is used to repel (center) opponent that is pressing in way too close, allowing you to free up the extended arm for a (wrist rotation) palm or fist strike for good measure (since you have them at your doorstep).

[PalmStriker]

:) Having asked my instructor about bong and tan sau while learning the SLT set, the answer was " for blocking high and blocking low incoming strikes. (wox on wox off muscle memory)I asked why the repetitious fook sau sequence and was told that, within the lineage it is known as "Little cannon " and is used to repel (center) opponent that is pressing in way too close, allowing you to free up the extended arm for a (wrist rotation) palm or fist strike for good measure (since you have them at your doorstep). * Remember that SLT techniques are usually hidden from the casual observer as was the practice of all kung fu Masters and form origination during turbulent times of secrecy. Not to mention it was illegal even to practice these things at that time in China's history let alone showing intent.

[T.D.O]

* Remember that SLT techniques are usually hidden from the casual observer as was the practice of all kung fu Masters and form origination during turbulent times of secrecy. Not to mention it was illegal even to practice these things at that time in China's history let alone showing intent.

I have a theory... one of many.. as you'll no doubt of noticed :D... that slt was designed to look and act like a Dao yin for that reason, just a theory that came to mind when I noticed that a lot of Dao yin looks similar and does similar 3 one way 3 the other way sequences, ive never seen a set that has ygkjm

[T.D.O]

* Remember that SLT techniques are usually hidden from the casual observer as was the practice of all kung fu Masters and form origination during turbulent times of secrecy. Not to mention it was illegal even to practice these things at that time in China's history let alone showing intent.

Does your slt have 108 movements?

[PalmStriker]

I have a theory... one of many.. as you'll no doubt of noticed :D... that slt was designed to look and act like a Dao yin for that reason, just a theory that came to mind when I noticed that a lot of Dao yin looks similar and does similar 3 one way 3 the other way sequences, ive never seen a set that has ygkjm

Yes, LOL, a lot like Yang Taiji looks like a slow dance sequence exercise for old-people type NeiGong. Whenever I see a video of multiple students performing the SLT set, all I can think of is: "Well, that looks pretty harmless." ...... as opposed to watching Tae kwon do or a Karate performance wherein the intent is pretty clear. * Never counted number of movements in Yiu Choi SLT.
"108" is a sacred number in the Hindu Religion of India and could be a carryover from Buddhist numerology also.
http://benotdefeatedbytherain.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-essense-of-fujianese-culture.html

[T.D.O]

"108" is a sacred number in the Hindu Religion of India and could be a carryover from Buddhist numerology also.

Thanks for that, I once asked before on this site.. and had a cryptic answer from joy lol

the only other info ive found on it was, that when the Buddhist monks were leaving the temple, they had to perform "108" techniques on "108" different wooden men in order to be able to leave and that it was homage to them, but whoever came up with that fable forgot that the dummy form has "116" techniques.

[T.D.O]

http://benotdefeatedbytherain.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-essense-of-fujianese-culture.html

interesting :)

Does your lineage train "golden rooster" or slt on one leg?

[PalmStriker]

:) I'm going to say no. Post a youtube link to "Golden Rooster" if you can find one showing the form if you have a chance. I watched a vid some years ago wherein a practitioner was doing a one-legged SLT demo. Personally I thought it looked ridiculous. No wonder other martial arts schools scratch their heads when they see this stuff. * Chen Taiji Golden Rooster Stance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJFZWXLGyt8

[T.D.O]

:) I'm going to say no. Post a youtube link to "Golden Rooster" if you can find one showing the form if you have a chance. I watched a vid some years ago wherein a practitioner was doing a one-legged SLT demo. Personally I thought it looked ridiculous. No wonder other martial arts schools scratch their heads when they see this stuff. * Chen Taiji Golden Rooster Stance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJFZWXLGyt8

Golden rooster, as I have seen in a book about the plum flower* poles, was just standing on one leg in the classic wing chun guard.. no form. Slt on one leg is in my lineage, never took it seriously though, but I seen that the lo kwai lineage done it, thought it may of been a mainland thing?

The article you posted mentioned the golden rooster, that's why I ask :D

*changed from blossom to flower*

[wckf92]

Golden rooster, as I have seen in a book about the plum blossom poles, was just standing on one leg in the classic wing chun guard.. no form. Slt on one leg is in my lineage, never took it seriously though, but I seen that the lo kwai lineage done it, thought it may of been a mainland thing?

The article you posted mentioned the golden rooster, that's why I ask :D

SLT on one leg? Yep. That's basic stuff. And great training for your horse. Never heard it called golden rooster though.
Can you post a pic or link to the book you mentioned? Thanks!

[T.D.O]

SLT on one leg? Yep. That's basic stuff. And great training for your horse. Never heard it called golden rooster though.
Can you post a pic or link to the book you mentioned? Thanks!

Certainly can https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1623175178/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_1623175178

Though, you may have picked me up wrong, slt on one leg isn't in the book. Just standing on one leg, he calls golden rooster...

Personally I started training standing on one leg recently, I stopped training for a few years and well... lost the ability for one leg "stuff :rolleyes:"
Even though I was still doing bodyweight squats (close version on the way to one leg squats :eek: )
Started back training with 2 gum sau behind the back (like ip man slt 2nd section) on one leg, someone mentioned on this site how good it felt on the lower back and I have to agree it does. So slt on one leg is next on my agenda.

I have a question regarding slt on one leg, how do you set your horse, if you don't mind me asking?

Seems it would be better to me to just spin on the heels ( turn the toes out ) and lift the leg from there, rather than going into YJKYM ( hoi ma I think people refer to this)

[wckf92]

I have a question regarding slt on one leg, how do you set your horse, if you don't mind me asking?

Seems it would be better to me to just spin on the heels ( turn the toes out ) and lift the leg from there, rather than going into YJKYM ( hoi ma I think people refer to this)

Thanks for the book link.

One leg squats are bruta! I used to be able to do those but can't anymore. :(

As for one leg SLT, yes, your foot should be turned to the outside slightly. And your horse is still sunken just a bit. For reference, it would be similar to how most open their horse at the beginning of the empty hand forms.

Hope that makes sense(?)

[T.D.O]

Thanks for the book link.

One leg squats are bruta! I used to be able to do those but can't anymore. :(

As for one leg SLT, yes, your foot should be turned to the outside slightly. And your horse is still sunken just a bit. For reference, it would be similar to how most open their horse at the beginning of the empty hand forms.

Hope that makes sense(?)

It does my friend, and was what I was trying to describe, pretty hard when the not so obvious things have no name lol.

Thank you :)

[T.D.O]

The pic on the front of the book, is what he calls the golden rooster

[T.D.O]

What's the thought behind the arrow punch, if don't mind me asking?

https://www.plumpub.com/kaimen/2013/training-the-arrow-punch/

Not wing chun.. seems like a common training method for body linking.. in other styles.

though I thought in WC it was related to the pole? I take it that's only a IM WC thing since they do it in a pole stance?

Looking at the IM arrow punch, do you think that's where bruce got his jkd lead punch and side kick from??