Aerobic = Bad

[sanjuro_ronin]

Six reasons why aerobic work is counterproductive Print E-mail

Getting Maximum Results

As a Strength Coach and a Personal Trainer for 15 years, I’ve had a chance to see many fitness enthusiasts workout at many gyms in my local area and throughout the country. At any given gym or fitness center, the one thing that I notice is how you see the same people doing the same workouts month after month, year after year. The amazing thing is that these people continue to look the same or they are actually looking worse aesthetically. This is especially true with the constant performance of continuous aerobic work.

What’s sad about this is that they feel like they are doing everything necessary to get the result they are looking for. They are resigned to the fact that this is how it’s going to be and there isn’t anything that can be done to correct their deficiencies. If you were to ask them what results they would like to get out of their workout, the number 1 answer is “losing weight or getting thinner.”

When I am asked what it takes to look “fitter,” the first question I ask is: “How long have you been doing your current training program?”

The usual answer I receive is “somewhere between 6 and 12 months.” The typical program they follow is “30 – 60 minutes of continuous aerobic work 3 to 5 times per week.”

Our training tells us that this is not a good approach to take for the client seeking improving results over time. World renowned strength guru Charles Poliquin has identified 6 reasons why aerobic training is counterproductive to fat loss:

(1) Continuous aerobic work plateaus after 8 weeks of training so anything more is counterproductive.

This is quite an “eye opener” for most people who immediately recognize that they may have been wasting their time for such an extended period. To quote Charles, “using this principle in preparation for the 92 Olympics, the Canadian Alpine Ski team actually surpassed the Cross-country team on aerobic scores as measured by third party University labs.” Who wouldn’t want to perform as well as the Canadian Alpine ski team?

(2) Aerobic training worsens power locally and systemically – in other words, it can make you slower.

If you are an athlete or a “weekend warrior” who likes to participate in athletic events or team sports that require speed and jumping ability, this is the last thing you want from a cardiovascular training program. Coach Poliquin adds that “the more lower body aerobic work you do, the more your vertical jump worsens. The more upper body aerobic work you do, the more your medicine ball throws worsen.”

(3) Aerobic training increases oxidative stress which can accelerate aging.

According to Endocrinologist Dr. Diana Schwarzbein (author of The Schwarzbein Principle II ,) “oxidation” is a process that forms free radicals in the body. Normally the body can neutralize free radicals with substances known as antioxidants. It is only when there is an excessive build-up of free radicals that the body cannot neutralize all of the free radicals. This leads to changes to your metabolism which can accelerate aging.

(4) Aerobic training increases adrenal stress which can make you fatter and produce other undesirable health consequences

According to Dr. James Wilson (author of Adrenal Fatigue – The 21st. Century Stress Syndrome,) “normally functioning adrenal glands secrete minute, yet precise and balanced, amounts of steroid hormones”. When one does too much continuous aerobic exercise, the adrenal glands are stressed in a way that can upset this delicate balance which could lead to adrenal fatigue. Adrenal fatigue is associated with such symptoms as: tiredness, fearfulness, allergies, frequent influenza, arthritis, anxiety, depression, reduced memory, and difficulties in concentrating, insomnia, feeling worn-out, and most importantly- with respect to this article - the inability to lose weight after extensive efforts.”

(5) Aerobic training increases body fat in stressed individuals by contributing additional stress.

If you are already going through a lot of stress in your life then adding more “stress” by doing too much continuous aerobic work will actually add more body fat thus making it hard to reach a weight-loss/body fat goal.

(6) Aerobic training worsens testosterone/cortisol ratio which impedes your ability to add fat burning lean muscle.

When the testosterone/cortisol ratio is lowered your ability to add lean muscle tissue, which helps to increase caloric expenditure, is again hampered making weight loss much more difficult. Coach Poliquin notes that “continuous aerobic work is basically exercise induced castration!”

Keith Alpert is a brilliant strength coach from the Boston area, who has a very strong record in the professional basketball area.

[sanjuro_ronin]

if your body "knows" that it can expect to be stressed out in perpetuity, it will act that way...

Adaptability is a biotch.

[Oso]

good post, thanks.


but what is deemed 'continuous'?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

as much as i personally hate to do cardio, i dont agree with all of the post. i see far too many old people running marathons who are in great shape and generally in good spirits.

[mawali]

Aerobic exercise is great because it balances out the strength conditioning and provides the cardiovascular workout against modern sedentary society!

It is still the better of most exercise routines. I used to hate 'humping hills' when in the Corps but after awhile I got used to it and became like nothing. Now I have a big gut like most others my age, I realized I needed aerobic exercise to regain my youthful body, i.e. former youthful body.

[Oso]

yea, and roadies are a bunch of skinny *******s.


to further refine my question: yea, doing the same volume or intensity of aerobic exercise will definitely plateau after a short while. you have to keep pushing and getter faster over time for it to not do that.

plus, by changing up the volume and intensity (long slow days vs. short fast days vs. intervals vs. whatever else changes a major component of the exercise) would keep any plateau from happening. right?

it seems by his references he's talking about the standard gym bunnies doing their 30 minutes at level 8 3 times a week and not necessarily someone who is doing some aerobic training as part of an overall plan.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my opinion, we must have a balanced training regime, balanced with Strenght training, flexability, anerobic cardio - HIIT and your typical moderate paced aerobic activity.

I thought this article was interesting in the sense of how much things have changed in the fitness industry, not too long ago ( and still in some parts), aerobic activity was the THING.

Now we know that strength training is actually, in many cases, more crucial for health and that anerobic training actually build cardio and burns fat faster,

[IronFist]

I skimmed that list.

I've heard the lowers testosterone thing before.

Weightlifting supposedly increases it.

I can attest to that. After time off, when I start lifting weights again my sex drive goes up a lot. But the few times I've done running, I just feel tired and want to sleep.

[golden arhat]

runners run

swimmers swim

fighters fight

and lift stuff

and occasionally run :p

[David Jamieson]

who you trying to kid? huh? lol

to put it super simple.

strength development comes from anaerobic activity more often than not.

You need cardio to shed fat and to build breathing endurance.

you cannot escape it. do your cardio you lazy mac users! lol :p

[Oso]

In my opinion, we must have a balanced training regime, balanced with Strenght training, flexability, anerobic cardio - HIIT and your typical moderate paced aerobic activity.

I thought this article was interesting in the sense of how much things have changed in the fitness industry, not too long ago ( and still in some parts), aerobic activity was the THING.

Now we know that strength training is actually, in many cases, more crucial for health and that anerobic training actually build cardio and burns fat faster,

right...even Miyagi said one must have balance ;)

but, no one has yet to answer my question of what he meant by 'continuous'?

point being: I vary my cardio from 20-40 minutes as I can and as time allows...letting my daily life dictate whether I do a faster 20 or a slower 40.

and, if I increase the intensity at both ends of the spectrum then how can I plateau?

[SAAMAG]

What is the credibility of the source(s)?

I only ask because EVERY runner I know is healthy, skinny, and definitely do not look old for their age. It seems that article goes against general health guidelines given to us over the years from MD's.

1) I can see this point as being true. But it's true with anarobic activity as well. You will eventually plateau and will need to shock the system with various attacks to get past those plateaus. I've been working out hard since January, and have made some great gains anarobically (went from flat benching 10 reps @ 135 10 reps @ 225 in four months-can hit 275 about 4 reps), and can now run 30 minutes straight on the treadmill (something I could not do before). My body fat percentage is less, but not as much as I lost when I was 6 weeks in boot camp with NO weightlifting. So there's something definitely wrong with my program in terms of burning fat--probably my diet.

2) Absolutely correct and very obvious when you train.

3) Slow paced aerobic activity will always hurt plyometric performance. I typically will run intervals and sprints and use the heavy bag for my fighting endurance. Seems to provide better results for the task in mind. Funny though...why do boxer's perform so well with so much endurance running in their regimens?

4) Although this seems legitimate because it's sourced from an MD, I don't see evidence of it in any of the folks that I know are runners. They generally are in good moods and are in no way overweight or even pudgy. I can see this being true perhaps in people that might be marathon runners or something...as the body will burn muscle for energy instead of fat...and their bodies are being taxed far beyond safe levels with the extent of running they do.

5) Same as above. I have never met a fat person that runs on a consistent basis.

6) Um...I have NEVER had a problem in this area when I was running more, nor am I having a problem now with this when I do my long distance running days (long distance being relative to my abilities). In fact, in the military when I ran and marched all the time, I got skinny and lost a lot of my fat percentage...so I simply don't understand where some of these claims are coming from.

....

Was there a study done for all of these claims or just some of them? What sort of results have you guys found in each of these claims?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many people that "also run" or use running as the main focus of their "fat burning regime" tend to get many of those symptoms, and like all things, many don't.
You do realize this was written by a strength coach...

[Drake]

The person who wrote that article needs to die

[sanjuro_ronin]

The person who wrote that article needs to die

I am sure he will, like we all do.
:D

[Drake]

I meant immediately :D

[Scott R. Brown]

right...even Miyagi said one must have balance ;)

but, no one has yet to answer my question of what he meant by 'continuous'?

point being: I vary my cardio from 20-40 minutes as I can and as time allows...letting my daily life dictate whether I do a faster 20 or a slower 40.

and, if I increase the intensity at both ends of the spectrum then how can I plateau?

Usually no more than 15-20 mins of intense intervals! You could do it twice a day if you wanted to get in more time rather than double the time. There are also time limits on weight training. Generally your testosterone levels peak at about 60-90 mins. If you go longer it reduces your testosterone level. It is better to train say, 40 mins twice a day than 80 mins all at once. You should take 30-40 mins between weight training workouts. The Romanians, who train 6-8 times a day rest for 40 mins between successive workouts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Usually no more than 15-20 mins of intense intervals! You could do it twice a day if you wanted to get in more time rather than double the time. There are also time limits on weight training. Generally your testosterone levels peak at about 60-90 mins. If you go longer it reduces your testosterone level. It is better to train say, 40 mins twice a day than 80 mins all at once. You should take 30-40 mins between weight training workouts. The Romanians, who train 6-8 times a day rest for 40 mins between successive workouts.

I don't see how anyone can do even 15 min of HIIT, not if they are truly intense.
The vast majority of studies (like the Tabata) that show the huge benefit of HIIT are ones where they intensity is so high that even 8 minutes can be too much.
There are benefits to longer bouts of moderate HIIT, but I don't know of any studies done that show that they come close to the HIIT that is usally sited when showing the benefits of HIIT.

[Scott R. Brown]

Well, I am not referring to Tabatas just 15 mins of intervals!

While I do perform my own aerobics in 15-20 mins of intervals, I don't actually believe it is necessary to follow this protocol for most people. It is more for those who want to optimize their testosterone levels.

I perform a series of Kick punch intervals that I call the 8 Fist. Eight sections of Eight different strikes changing directions every four steps using front kicks with each forward step. Each section involves different punching combinations. It takes from 15-20 mins. tro complete the entire set. Each of the eight sections is an interval of about 2-3 mins depending upon my pace. Actually I am getting ready to do it now! You will perform 250 kicks and about 500 strikes when the series is completed.

If you are really interested I can probably find my source for the 15-20 min interval sets. I read it in the last few months. And I have the article on the Bulgarian weight training program somewhere. It was the Bulgarians and not the Romanians.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, I would love to read that article.

Thanks.

Where did you see the Tabata's intervals being done for 15 mins?
The protocol, if I recall, is 8 "sets" of 20 seconds of HIIT with 10 seconds rest between.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://cbass.com/Tabata_GXP.htm

An interesting comparision of Tabata abd another HIIT.

[Scott R. Brown]

I just finished!

16:23 today with a few mins off to change into different shoes after the first two sections.

It wasn't a Tabata. I think it was located on T-Nation. I will have to look it up. I'll try to post the link later tonight. I have to take the baby to the Dr. soon and then sleep. I work nights.

The Bulgarian training program is from a NSCA Journal article from 1991. I have it on PDF, but I can copy and paste if anyone is interested.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Tabata method is this one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8897392?dopt=Abstract

Its the one that everyone point to in regards to results but no one does !
LOL !!

[Scott R. Brown]

Ok here is the article I was talking about. It is from Chapter 6 of Chad Waterbury’s book, “Muscle Revolution” pp. 111-114 All Bolding is mine.


Developing the aerobic system

Aerobic metabolism is the primary energy system used with continuous activity. It takes over around the 6-10-minute mark during continuous muscle contractions. Since aerobic metabolism is very efficient, it can keep up with your energy demands for hours, as I noted earlier.

As it happens, your body uses multiple energy systems for most of the challenges you throw at it. Martial artists, skiers, and soccer players tend to get high marks for aerobic power, expressed as V02max. That doesn't mean they're out on the field chugging along at a continuous six-minute mile pace. It means that they use anaerobic glycolysis or even the ATP-CP system for short bursts, and use the aerobic system when they get a chance to slow down and recover.

So you need some aerobic-system development if you're going to succeed in sports like these. But you still have to use aerobic exercise judiciously. All the sports I just mentioned also require speed, strength, and power, and in some cases (football, for example) hypertrophy is helpful. But those four qualities are at risk any time you set out to do steady-pace endurance exercise.

I don't mean to say your muscles start shrinking the minute you lace up your running shoes. But you do have to be cautious; spend too much time on the road, and your body will preferentially develop its type I muscle fibers, which have the least potential for force production. On top of that, if you're combining endurance work with a high volume of other types of training, you risk generating too much of the stress hormone Cortisol, which can lead to muscle loss and fat storage.
So my recommendation for advanced athletes is the same as for beginners and intermediates: no more than 20 minutes per session of steady-pace endurance exercise, no more than three times a week.

Interval Training

For the beginner or intermediate, it offers a faster way to burn fat and strengthen your heart. For the advanced athlete, it presents a more sport-specific way to develop energy systems. Most sports involve starts and stops, constant shifts of speed and, by extension, shifts from reliance on one energy system to primary use of another.

And, aside from its functional, sport-specific qualities, it's also time efficient. Let's say you're pressed for time, and you can only devote 10 minutes to energy-system training. Now, 10 minutes of brisk walking isn't going to do much of anything; on the other hand, a flat-out sprint isn't the best idea either, since you don't have enough time to warm up properly. However, a series of alternating fast runs and brisk walks is possible, and I'd argue that it would be a better use of time for most trainees than 10 solid minutes of one thing or another.

But let's look at interval training in a different way, as a technique to develop endurance and burn calories without sending your body the wrong signals.
Here's what I mean: If you look at an elite sprinter, you notice that these guys have very muscular thighs. (As do the women sprinters, for that matter.) Sure, they build muscle in the weight room, but their sprint training has some effect. When you perform a maximal sprint for 10 to 20 seconds, you're primarily challenging your largest muscle fibers. That's great for them, and it can be great for you, if you're involved in any strength and power sport.

If these same athletes spent their time walking fast or jogging, they wouldn't be challenging their largest muscle fibers. Not only that, but research has demonstrated that long, slow activities can cause your muscles to make a transition toward smaller, type I, endurance-oriented fibers. You know by now that type I fibers are the worst at producing maximal strength and power. That's not to say that the type I la fibers won't come into play with walking—they certainly can. But they just won't get the type of work that leads to greater strength and hypertrophy, unless you're recovering from a serious illness or injury, and the muscles are so weak and atrophied that walking presents these fibers with a serious challenge
.
So by doing high-intensity intervals—sprints and recovery—you'll develop your body's most powerful fibers, rather than compromising them. And, because
you're also generating lactate in your muscles, you'll trigger growth-hormone release, which will help you burn more fat after your workout is finished. (The growth hormone release from sprinting is not huge, but any increase helps the cause.)

Here's a six-week interval-training plan for intermediate trainees and advanced athletes. This program will alternate between high- and low-intensity energy-systems training. Importantly, high-intensity training isn't limited to sprinting. Another excellent choice is rope jumping. For example, I'll have my intermediate-level clients jump rope as fast as they can for 15 to 20 seconds, followed by 90 seconds of walking around the room. Then they'll return to jumping rope, then walking, and so on. My advanced clients jump rope as fast as they can for 15 to 20 seconds, followed by slower rope jumping for 60 to 90 seconds. Any type of rope jumping is more taxing than walking, which is why I favor it for my advanced clients.


High-Intensity Interval Training (HUT)

Paraphrased by me here:

2-3 sessions a week, 15-20 second work interval with 80-90 seconds rest for 10-16 total minutes

Back to Chad:

You can work with this progression beyond six weeks, with two cautions: First, I'd use 20 seconds as the top end of your sprint work—more than that, and you won't be able to maintain maximal intensity, which means you'll shift past your ATP-PC energy system. Second, I wouldn't work for longer than 20 minutes per session.

That leaves two columns for further progression: you can keep shaving your recovery time until you get to a 1:1 work-recovery ratio. That is, sprint 20 seconds, recover 20 seconds, repeat. You can also increase your interval sessions, up to seven times a week. If you're really advanced, and really need the extra workouts, you can even do intervals twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening.

But for the overwhelming majority of you reading this, three to four interval sessions a week is plenty.

I misquoted the Bulgarian Olympic weight training system a bit. This is from the NSCA Journal, Volume 13, Number 2, 1991

They train 45 mins. then rest for 30 mins. then train another 45 program. They do this for 3 cycles per day, Morning, Afternoon and Evening. The idea here is to maximize the production of testosterone without overtraining to the point of releasing cortisol which is the same reason avoiding doing extended aerobics sessions is recommended. Long distance aerobic training and extended weight training programs inhibits testosterone release, releases cortisol and inhibits growth hormone release.

In the end it is important to structure your training according to your goals. If you are planning to run a marathon you would want to train longer distances, but if you are a fighter it is not necessary and may be counter productive.

[sanjuro_ronin]

High-Intensity Interval Training (HUT)

Paraphrased by me here:

2-3 sessions a week, 15-20 second work interval with 80-90 seconds rest for 10-16 total minutes

That MAY actually mean 10-16 total minutes per week.
I do like Chad's stuff by the way.

As you can see by the link to the actual Tabata method, no way you are gonna go at 170% for 10 minutes.

Of course this is for the beginner, the person that has never done it so has no clue with HIGH Intensity means, so they will need more volume since they can't reallu up the intensity as much as they THINK they can.


They train 45 mins. then rest for 30 mins. then train another 45 program. They do this for 3 cycles per day, Morning, Afternoon and Evening. The idea here is to maximize the production of testosterone without overtraining to the point of releasing cortisol which is the same reason avoiding doing extended aerobics sessions is recommended. Long distance aerobic training and extended weight training programs inhibits testosterone release, releases cortisol and inhibits growth hormone release.

Sounds about right, though they don;t mention if they do the same exercise each session per day.
Then again, the vast majority are "enhanced" ;).


In the end it is important to structure your training according to your goals. If you are planning to run a marathon you would want to train longer distances, but if you are a fighter it is not necessary and may be counter productive.

Specificity for the win.
:D

[Ronin22]

Hey Scott

Interesting read thanks for posting it

I was curious though if the author makes mention of any weight training program that goes along with the HIT training?


Thanks, appreciate it


Ok nevermind i've found a thread with a bunch of his workouts on it



http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=643686

[Scott R. Brown]

Here is an excerpt from the article in NSCA Journal Volume 13 Number 2 1991, by Bob Takano:

The basic unit of the Bulgarian coaching scheme for national team members is a 45-minute workout. This time frame is determined by the amount of time it is possible for the human male to maintain a maximum testosterone secretion level. I might add that they are dealing with highly selected human males, The first weekly workout is conducted on Monday morning. It is a snatch competition, with each athlete registering his best six single attempts. Abadijiev monitors theses attempts and logs them in a comprehensive diary. Athletes may attempt heavier singles if time allows. The athletes are then required to rest for 30 minutes by reclining and listening to popular music to allow the endocrines to be restored. The second workout is also 45 minutes and follows the same format as the first, with the clean and jerk being the practiced lift. The workout is concluded with maximum singles in the front squat. This concludes the morning training. Again, the heaviest singles are recorded by Abadjiev. The third workout takes place after lunch, and duplicates the first workout. A 30-minute restoration period follows, and then the fourth workout commences again with the clean and jerk and the front squat. Maximum singles are recorded. The fifth and sixth workouts of the day are duplications of the first and second and take place in the evening. Tuesday is a repetition of the Monday workouts, although lower results are not unexpected. Wednesday is a relatively light day. The first morning workout follows the same format as all the other workouts-a competition with six attempts. The lift performed is the power snatch. The 30-minute restoration period is then followed by the second workout of 45 minutes. The lift performed is the power clean and jerk, followed by submaximal to maximal singles in the back squat. The athletes have the rest of the day off. Thursday, Friday and Saturday are duplications of the Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday training sessions, with the heaviest lifts expected on Thursday. On Sunday there may be a morning workout, during which athletes can train in a less structured manner. Our group was able to observe the Sunday training. During this session, one of the 100 kilogram lifters worked up to a 220-kilogram power clean followed by a single back squat with 305 kilograms. Neither lift appeared to be a maximum effort. We were also treated to a 200-kilogram front squat by a 16-year-old, 67.5- kilogram athlete.

[Drake]

I have trust issues with Bulgarians.

[Oso]

Usually no more than 15-20 mins of intense intervals! You could do it twice a day if you wanted to get in more time rather than double the time. There are also time limits on weight training. Generally your testosterone levels peak at about 60-90 mins. If you go longer it reduces your testosterone level. It is better to train say, 40 mins twice a day than 80 mins all at once. You should take 30-40 mins between weight training workouts. The Romanians, who train 6-8 times a day rest for 40 mins between successive workouts.

hmmm, I wonder if my daily work qualifies at interval training :D on a usual delivery it takes us 10-15 minutes to move a tub in to place. usually it's just two of us moving anywhere from a 400-1000 pound cube....enh, probably not as we don't usually walk briskly between the 5-10 second bursts of strenth/power heaving on those *******s.

I think the HIIT interval set I did also came from tnation but I couldn't find it there now so I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure it went like this:

Work/Rest
20/30
30/60
40/90
50/120
60/150

I did it on a stairclimber, maybe part of the problem was I was only doing lower body and not whole body.

the chart I had pulled from wherever only went up to the 60 minute work phase.
when I did it I increased the work rest periods up to 90/240 as the last...that was hard.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is the thing about HIIT, you CAN'T do more, even if you wanted to.

HIIT is like running the 200 meters as fast as you can, stopping for 10 seconds and doing it again and repeating that 8 times.
Its a full blast, balls to the wall, give it all you got EVERY SINGLE time, burst of pure energy.
Typically the first 2 maybe even 3 "sets" or bouts can be done, after that you feel like you are gonna puke out a lung EVERY SINGLE set/bout.

I read an interview with the athletes that did the Tabata protocol and they were colligate athletes if I remember correctly, already high level and ALL of them said that the Tabata methods was the hardest thing they ever done, all were totally exhaust at the end.

And that was after "4 minutes".

[bodhitree]

Recent studies suggest that HIIT does in fact burn more fat than LSD cardio.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Recent studies suggest that HIIT does in fact burn more fat than LSD cardio.

Yes, HIIT tends to burn fat AFTER one is finished exercising.
It speeds up the body metabolisim and the body continues to burn fat for some time after the actual exercise period is over.

[Oso]

alright, alright....i'll try it again...christ, are you guys jewish on your mother's side or something?


:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

alright, alright....i'll try it again...christ, are you guys jewish on your mother's side or something?


:D

Oi vey !!
Schmuck.
:D

[Scott R. Brown]

Here are two interesting studies:


The Effect of Experience and Gender on Cardiovascular and Metabolic Responses With Dynamic Tae Kwon Do Exercise.

Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 16(2):278-285, May 2002.
NEBOJSA NASH TOSKOVIC; DANIEL BLESSING; HENRY N. WILLIFORD

Abstract:

This study, conducted at the Exercise Physiology Laboratory of Auburn University AL, addressed and compared the acute cardiovascular and metabolic effects elicited by novice and experienced men and women participants during a single bout of dynamic Tae Kwon Do exercise and investigated whether or not dynamic Tae Kwon Do practice is an exercise modality that provides sufficient cardiorespiratory demand for enhancing aerobic fitness and promoting weight and fat loss. Twenty-eight men and women (aged 19-42) were assigned to 1 of the following 4 groups: Tae Kwon Do experienced and trained men (ME), Tae Kwon Do experienced and trained women (FE), novice Tae Kwon Do men (MN), and novice Tae Kwon Do women (FN). The results of this investigation indicate that this form of exercise can be performed for an extended period of 20 minutes. All 4 groups achieved the recommended stimulus for effective initiation of cardiovascular adaptations and conditioning. The mean exercise heart rate responses (88.3-92.2% of maximal heart rate [HR max]) were similar for all groups. The observed exercise intensity ranged from 67.9 to 72.1% Vo2max, and no significant difference based on the experience and gender and exercise oxygen uptake could be established. Data in this study indicate a high caloric expenditure for this mode of exercise. Total caloric cost of 20 minutes of dynamic Tae Kwon Do, 194.8 and 201.6 kcal for novice women and experienced women, respectively, was significantly lower in comparison with that of their men counterparts (316.5 and 286.5 kcal, respectively), but no significant relationship between experience and energy cost was found. The conclusion of this study indicates that dynamic Tae Kwon Do is an exercise modality that can be appropriately prescribed for cardiovascular conditioning, weight control, and fat loss.

(C) 2002 National Strength and Conditioning Association
Cardiovascular Response to Punching Tempo.


Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 17(1):104-108, February 2003.
LEN KRAVITZ; LARRY GREENE; ZACHARY BURKETT; JATAPORN WONGSATHIKUN

Abstract:

Eighteen trained volunteers (12 men and 6 women: age = 22.0 +/- 2.8 years, height = 170.79 +/- 7.67 cm, weight = 71.54 +/- 12.63 kg) participated in 2-minute, randomized fitness boxing trials, wearing 0.34-kg punching gloves, at various tempos (60, 72, 84, 96, 108, and 120 b[middle dot]min-1). During each trial, oxygen uptake (Vo2), heart rate (HR), and ventilation (VE) were measured continuously. A rating of perceived exertion (RPE) was attained at the conclusion of each trial. Subjects were able to attain Vo2 values ranging from 26.83 to 29.75 ml[middle dot]kg-1.min1, which correspond to 67.7-72.5% of Vo2max. The HR responses yielded results ranging from 167.4 to 182.2 b-min-1, or 85 to 93% of HRmax. No significant difference (p > 0.05) was seen with Vo2 between trials, although a significant difference (p < 0.05) was observed with HR, VE, and RPE. It appears that boxing speed is associated with increased VE, HR response, and perceived effort but not with Vo2. Energy expenditure values ranged from 9.8 to 11.2 kcal-min-1 for the boxing trials. These results suggest that fitness boxing programs compare favorably with other exercise modalities in cardiovascular response and caloric expenditure.

(C) 2003 National Strength and Conditioning Association

[Oso]

Oi vey !!
Schmuck.
:D

mensch!!!!!!!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here are two interesting studies:

In both studies the Vo2 was in the 70's, the typical moderate pace of most exercises that are don for prolonged periods.

Not sure what the point of those studies were, I mean:


The conclusion of this study indicates that dynamic Tae Kwon Do is an exercise modality that can be appropriately prescribed for cardiovascular conditioning, weight control, and fat loss.


These results suggest that fitness boxing programs compare favorably with other exercise modalities in cardiovascular response and caloric expenditure.

That can be said of almost every physical activity and its been well known for quite some time that its more than applicable in regards to TKD and Boxing.

[SAAMAG]

During high intensity training, I'm usually between 85% and 95% of my max heart rate. Sometimes it peaks a bit higher as I've hit 100+% momentarily.

Man...I'm looking forward to that HIIT training today. I'm going to try it with the specific timeframes (30 sec on/30 sec off) either on the heavy bag or sprinting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

During high intensity training, I'm usually between 85% and 95% of my max heart rate. Sometimes it peaks a bit higher as I've hit 100+% momentarily.

Man...I'm looking forward to that HIIT training today. I'm going to try it with the specific timeframes (30 sec on/30 sec off) either on the heavy bag or sprinting.

Now imagine going OVER the 100%...

[SAAMAG]

I do...then I imagine a tingling sensation in my left arm, an ambulance ride....etc.etc. ;)

I've got a weightlifting buddy that's very adamant on staying within the max heart rate, he's the one that always tells me if I go over 100% I'll have a heart attack if it's sustained.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do...then I imagine a tingling sensation in my left arm, an ambulance ride....etc.etc. ;)

I've got a weightlifting buddy that's very adamant on staying within the max heart rate, he's the one that always tells me if I go over 100% I'll have a heart attack if it's sustained.

LOL !
Amazing how the people on the Tabata protocol were doing 170% eh?

[SAAMAG]

LOL !
Amazing how the people on the Tabata protocol were doing 170% eh?

Yeaaaa....I figure as long as I don't get all dizzy I'll be fine. It's a matter of progression.

Hey you need to email that stuff for the bagwork!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeaaaa....I figure as long as I don't get all dizzy I'll be fine. It's a matter of progression.

Hey you need to email that stuff for the bagwork!

Ah dude, its simple:
Power workout:
6 rounds, 1 minute on, 30 second break.
Go full on, fast and hard as you can, but not non-stop ( you are allowed to adjust for positioning), but you must drill every shot of the combo ( no less than 3 strikes and no more than 6 per combo) as fast and hard as you can.
Now, you can do full body each round or you can divide it up:
1 rd punches, 1 rd kicks, 1 rd elbows, 1 rd knees, etc, etc.

If you can actually make it to the end of each round, UP the intensity.
You can war the 16oz gloves to add weight to your arms for even more intense work.

For a pure cardio one, you can do what is called punch out or kick out drills.

8 rounds 20 sec with 10 sec breaks.
You MUSt hit full speed, full force NON-STOP for those 20 seconds ( think running the 100 as fast as you can for 20 sec)
In this case you have to divide thinsg up:
1 rd hooks, 1 rd left kick, i round right kick, in round elbows, 1 rd knees, rince and repeat.

Ok?

[SAAMAG]

Good stuff! That's about what I do now...1 minute on...about 30 seconds rest. I typically will use boxing 1 round, kicks another round, knees and elbows another...

At least I know that I'm on the right track in regards to interval training...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good stuff! That's about what I do now...1 minute on...about 30 seconds rest. I typically will use boxing 1 round, kicks another round, knees and elbows another...

At least I know that I'm on the right track in regards to interval training...

The key, as stated in the article, is the intensity.
You just have to work up to it and not just go for it.
Probably over a period of 6 workouts or so.
Warm up for 5 min before and cool down for 5 min after.
And stretch at the end.

[SAAMAG]

Hoollleey crap man!

That was tough. I did 6 rounds...but did 1 minute on, 1 minute off (I took two minutes off on in between one of the rounds...don't remember which one)

Round 1: Boxing
Round 2: Round kicks
Round 3: Boxing
Round 4: Knees
Round 5: Elbows
Round 6: Round kicks

I did pretty well...punching and kicking the hell out of the bag in the first rounds. The knees is where I started wearig down noticeably. Barely had enough to finish the elbows with some real power. The last round my kicks had barely anything in them and I had to really force myself to keep kicking. I was literally swinging them into the bag.

Luckily...no puking. Hot as all hell too...91 deg, 38&#37; humidity. I'm sweating my balls off!

[Oso]

over the last several weeks of prepping my folks for competition their 2 hour class would be something like this:

3 rounds of circuit, all of it as fast as they could go, for warmup:

60 seconds jj's or other light plyo
10 pushups
2 pull ups
10 squats
10 bootstrappers
10 lunges (5 each leg)
10 crunches
10 leg lifts
10 full sit ups
60 seconds rest

then 3-5 minutes of rest and water and on to the heavy bags for striking

15 seconds each side as lead of the following, 30 seconds rest between each combo set:

jab
jab, cross
jab, cross, hook
jab cross, hook, uppercut
body hooks

3-5 rest & water

then on to legs, 30 seconds each leg then a minute rest:

back leg front kick
front leg front kick
back leg round
front leg round
front leg side
spin side

then sparring drills, throwing drills and live sparring for 30-45 minutes.
live sparring would be either round robin with center person getting a fresher opponent every 2 minutes or 1 on 1 for 3 rounds then switching. sometimes they'd do a single 4 minute round with a fresh person every 15 seconds.

then we'd wrap up with 3 x 2 minute suicides. sometimes the sprinty type but I also had them carry dumbells for farmer's walks and touch the dumbells at each transition spot or carry a medicine ball and do the same.

again, this was towards the last 4-6 weeks of the 3 month ramp up

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hoollleey crap man!

That was tough. I did 6 rounds...but did 1 minute on, 1 minute off (I took two minutes off on in between one of the rounds...don't remember which one)

Round 1: Boxing
Round 2: Round kicks
Round 3: Boxing
Round 4: Knees
Round 5: Elbows
Round 6: Round kicks

I did pretty well...punching and kicking the hell out of the bag in the first rounds. The knees is where I started wearig down noticeably. Barely had enough to finish the elbows with some real power. The last round my kicks had barely anything in them and I had to really force myself to keep kicking. I was literally swinging them into the bag.

Luckily...no puking. Hot as all hell too...91 deg, 38% humidity. I'm sweating my balls off!

That is a good start, can even be a good warm up for HIIT.
The 2:1 ratio is important when you get to actual HIIT.
Wither it be 2 minutes W/1 minute break (moderate pace) or 1 minute W/30 second break ( intense pace) or the 20 seconds w/10 second break ( High intensity).
Its a ***** ain't it?
LOL !

[jow yeroc]

Informative thread and good posts. Thanks. An aside, I've often thought
women who run alot (marathons) start looking sickly as they age. Would that
have anything to do with aerobic=bad?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Informative thread and good posts. Thanks. An aside, I've often thought
women who run alot (marathons) start looking sickly as they age. Would that
have anything to do with aerobic=bad?

The "aerobic=bad" is in the context of strength training and aerobic activity as a supplementary exercise.
Not sure what you mean by "sickly"m but many people, men and women, tend to have a "drawn and weathered" look when they OVER DUE the Aerobic training.
That can be said about any physical activity that is over done, but it tends to be more noticable in endurance sports.

[jow yeroc]

Yeah thanks sanjuro, that's what i meant. I kinda singled women marathoners
out and prolly shouldn't have but as an admirer of female anatomy (i could
care less what you dudes look like:D) i just notice it more when women over
do it. I feel like tellin' 'em to sit down, eat a steak and chill for a while.

[David Jamieson]

over the last several weeks of prepping my folks for competition their 2 hour class would be something like this:

3 rounds of circuit, all of it as fast as they could go, for warmup:

60 seconds jj's or other light plyo
10 pushups
2 pull ups
10 squats
10 bootstrappers
10 lunges (5 each leg)
10 crunches
10 leg lifts
10 full sit ups
60 seconds rest

then 3-5 minutes of rest and water and on to the heavy bags for striking

15 seconds each side as lead of the following, 30 seconds rest between each combo set:

jab
jab, cross
jab, cross, hook
jab cross, hook, uppercut
body hooks

3-5 rest & water

then on to legs, 30 seconds each leg then a minute rest:

back leg front kick
front leg front kick
back leg round
front leg round
front leg side
spin side

then sparring drills, throwing drills and live sparring for 30-45 minutes.
live sparring would be either round robin with center person getting a fresher opponent every 2 minutes or 1 on 1 for 3 rounds then switching. sometimes they'd do a single 4 minute round with a fresh person every 15 seconds.

then we'd wrap up with 3 x 2 minute suicides. sometimes the sprinty type but I also had them carry dumbells for farmer's walks and touch the dumbells at each transition spot or carry a medicine ball and do the same.

again, this was towards the last 4-6 weeks of the 3 month ramp up

This is a pretty good routine. It would cause the sweat. lol