Wing Chun Chi Sao International Open 2008 Results

[Alan Orr]

Wing Chun Chi Sao International Open 2008

Results

go to -

http://wingchuninternationalchisaoopen.blogspot.com/

Best

Alan

I would like to thank all the people who came together in order to made this day work.

[Matrix]

Alan,

Congratulations to you and your team.

Cheers,
Bill

[guy b.]

Great stuff, well done. I saw some clips somewhere that looked really good but can't find them now.

Edit:

Here they are

http://http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nigtvW86erc

[CFT]

That's Aaron Baum vs. "spot" (WSL forum user id).

(Just me "connecting the dots")

[LoneTiger108]

Must admit, I only watched a few bouts as this type of competition just didn't float my boat! I could see what people liked about it, but more so what others didn't like about it.

A grand idea, and congrats to Alan and his team for getting things going. I only wonder why there wasn't as much of a turnout from various families (seems to be CSL/WSL mainly) A great exhibition of toughness imo.

There are a few clips here: http://www.londonwingchun.com/videos/wingchunvideos.html

[guy b.]

Any other clips Alan? I thought the comp format looked really good because it allows some kind of meaningful testing without being too much. Very impressed so far.

[CFT]

Did you hear that someone got a ruptured bowel during the competition?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, from what I see, they start from the chi sao position and...try to do what exactly ?

[CFT]

So, from what I see, they start from the chi sao position and...try to do what exactly ?Hit each other mostly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hit each other mostly.

No head shots though?
Seems like pushing out of bounds is ok too and getting "control" is ok?
You win by points ?

[CFT]

No head shots though?
Seems like pushing out of bounds is ok too and getting "control" is ok?
You win by points ?I think palm to head was OK. Not too much, if any, loss of contact. Yes win by points I think.

Rules are here: http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/images/chisaurules.html. Probably easier to visualise now that there is footage to compare them to.

[LoneTiger108]

Did you hear that someone got a ruptured bowel during the competition?

I did hear something like that. Not surprised though, as this was a tough competition.

FWIW I saw so much 'chao kuen' used innappropriately. In a 'normal' scenario, once your arms drop to start throwing uppercuts to the body your face will be blitzed with WCK fistwork. Obviously, this couldn't happen due to the rules so plenty of ribs must've been bruised! :eek:

[guy b.]

Perhaps they should introduce a higher level comp with face contact as well for next year?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think palm to head was OK. Not too much, if any, loss of contact. Yes win by points I think.

Rules are here: http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/images/chisaurules.html. Probably easier to visualise now that there is footage to compare them to.

Thank you.
So, this is what chi sao actually looks like in a "fight"...interesting.
One wonders how much of a difference head strikes would make and why they were left out?

[LoneTiger108]

Perhaps they should introduce a higher level comp with face contact as well for next year?

Honestly, I like the BCCMA Sanshou competitions, so the lads I train will probably look into that sort of thing if they're interested.

http://www.bccma.com/events.asp?event=1005

[CFT]

One wonders how much of a difference head strikes would make and why they were left out?Maybe a different standard of medical backup required?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe a different standard of medical backup required?

You say that as if it was a bad thing :D

[guy b.]

Probably because nobody would enter if it was standup headstrikes with mma gloves. You might as well fight mma, most amateur wing chun guys are not going to do that. This rule set gives everyone a chance to compete on a somewhat level playing field.

[LoneTiger108]

This rule set gives everyone a chance to compete on a somewhat level playing field.

FWIW I think this type of thing was a 'training method' used to toughen up Alans fighters before they entered the NHB arena. A sound practise imo, but for competition?

Lets see what others think...

[CFT]

FWIW I think this type of thing was a 'training method' used to toughen up Alans fighters before they entered the NHB arena. A sound practise imo, but for competition?

Lets see what others think...They're already competing in the NHB arena. Ya gotta keep up Spencer! ;)

[guy b.]

I'd just wonder what else you would suggest spencer? If you want to test wing chun skills in a fairly limited environment that is. I think with san shou rules most people will end up being unable to handle the pressure and will resort to bad kickboxing. The large gloves will not help.

With mma rules wing chun is more applicable but you will have zero chance of getting your average hobby wing chun guy to compete and you will be even less likely to get them competing together.

While competitive chi sao isn't fighting, it allows testing of key wing chun skills in a fairly safe environment with many aspects of real fighting also being present. I think it is a good stepping stone and a good way for wing chun guys to compare skills without having to risk too much. Think of it like judo randori..that isn't fighting either but it allows judo guys to get really good at judo and also makes it obvious who is the best judo guy around.

[LoneTiger108]

They're already competing in the NHB arena. Ya gotta keep up Spencer! ;)

I know this CFT!! What I suggested is this competitive method is simply a practise Alan Sifu introduced and developed with his guys as a preparation for NHB comps...


I'd just wonder what else you would suggest spencer? If you want to test wing chun skills in a fairly limited environment that is. I think with san shou rules most people will end up being unable to handle the pressure and will resort to bad kickboxing. The large gloves will not help...

...While competitive chi sao isn't fighting, it allows testing of key wing chun skills in a fairly safe environment with many aspects of real fighting also being present.

First off, I think if your WCK collapses under pressure from a kickboxer you haven't trained enough! And lets not forget the purpose of Sanshou. National and International recognition from Sports Councils etc. (ie. the safest possible!)

Secondly, everyones 'key wing chun skills' vary, from family to family. How do you please everyone?? I know a pushing hands competitor could've entered easily with this sort of format, as could a boxer with ten minutes chisau experience.

Like I've said, I only watched a few bouts (and the clips) so my opinions here should be taken lightly...

[KPM]

To me it seemed like this competition was about who could maintain a solid structure during contact and exchange, and who could find and exploit the other's openings. And that's what Chi Sao should be about developing! If you could handle the other guy's forward pressure and close off any openings during the rolling, you would be OK. There were no fancy multiple step trapping sequences in the clips I watched, likely because these things just don't work against a resisting partner. To me, good Chi Sao should be all about developing the structure and reflexes to handle that split second portion of an exchange that happens when you cross hands with the opponent. Then you are beyond that stage and actually beating him up! That's what I saw in the clips of Aaron Baum that I watched. The only difference between this Chi Sao competition and an actual sparring competition was that they start the exchange in the contact range using the Chi Sao platform. This puts the emphasis on having those Chi Sao skills that allow you to gain control of a resisting opponent. Oh...and head shots, but that's a different topic! :) Congrats to the winners and everyone that got in there and took part!

[CFT]

I know this CFT!! What I suggested is this competitive method is simply a practise Alan Sifu introduced and developed with his guys as a preparation for NHB comps...I don't know ... a once a year event wouldn't exactly lend itself as a "warm-up" event to NHB bouts that could occur at different times of the year.

[LoneTiger108]

To me it seemed like this competition was about who could maintain a solid structure during contact and exchange, and who could find and exploit the other's openings. And that's what Chi Sao should be about developing!

I agree with you.

I also think it's not just about maintaining structure whilst under pressure, it's about eliminating the pressure by having decent positioning and stepping work ( so there's no pressure at all!)

Then I'd look for 'signature' Wing Chun methods of attack & defence, all of which was being done by the judges. It's unfortunate that I couldn't watch all the bouts and from what I did see, the competitors were doing what you mentioned...

[LoneTiger108]

I don't know ... a once a year event wouldn't exactly lend itself as a "warm-up" event to NHB bouts that could occur at different times of the year.

You miss my point. This comp may have been more familiar to Alans guys as they actually train like this to develop their core strength prior to other full contact comps. The Seni comp wasn't a 'warm up' event for them, it was a result of their tried and tested training methods used for NHB/MMA bouts.

Maybe Alan Sifu can help here? I'm only saying what I see...

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

Thanks for your interest in the event.

Good comments from Guy b and KPM.

It terms of head shots, it was touch contact to the head. If you start hitting hard to the head you need gloves and more people will get hurt.

Hard striking to the body with controlled contact to the head is a good test of the points KPM made.

If you want to fight without chi sao then enter MMA. Simple.

My guys have and do fight MMA as well. In fact my team of guys will do any type of fighting to test different areas of training. Even if you limit your tools the core skills should still work, if they don't then you have a problem.

I have had great feedback from the guys who did fight from other schools. Everyone gained respect for each other and we all learned.

I will be meeting with the judges and I will be listening to the feedback so we can continue to develop the format as well.

Best

Alan

[Alan Orr]

You miss my point. This comp may have been more familiar to Alans guys as they actually train like this to develop their core strength prior to other full contact comps. The Seni comp wasn't a 'warm up' event for them, it was a result of their tried and tested training methods used for NHB/MMA bouts.

Maybe Alan Sifu can help here? I'm only saying what I see...

Well, I can say this.

This is the way we train and teach the Chu Sau Lei System. We have always worked of a balanced method of training. Therefore Qi Gong within our Wing Chun and conditioning within our Wing Chun are normal training. In fact for this event we did not train hard for it, at all.

If we have a MMA fight coming up we start 6-8 out and all work together to build the guys up. For this event we just worked of some normal chi sao a few weeks before the event.

Simon Liste has had a year on and off training this year due to family and work. He just got back into training 3 weeks ago and I only told him the day before that he should fight! lol

The chu sau Lei system is a system with power from day one of training as it is based on body structure.

So, people don't think its because we are just more conditioned.

Best

Alan

[LoneTiger108]

This is the way we train and teach the Chu Sau Lei System. We have always worked of a balanced method of training. Therefore Qi Gong within our Wing Chun and conditioning within our Wing Chun are normal training. In fact for this event we did not train hard for it, at all.

Thanks for your feedback Alan. Speaks volumes about your dedication to Chu Sifu and his own methods. I'm dissappointed I couldn't get to his seminar on Sunday.


I will be meeting with the judges and I will be listening to the feedback so we can continue to develop the format as well.

I would like to think this means that the competition will return to Seni??

I know it's early days, but with the calibre of judges present I can't see why the format wouldn't develop for the better imo...

[Alan Orr]

Yes, the idea is to have the event each year at Seni.

I had guys telling me they would love to fight next year.

I will be reviewing rules etc over the next few weeks.

Alan

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, the idea is to have the event each year at Seni.

I had guys telling me they would love to fight next year.

I will be reviewing rules etc over the next few weeks.

Alan

Have you contemplated head shots with head gear with face shields?
Keeps the oh-so dreaded crimson element out of it.

[Alan Orr]

Have you contemplated head shots with head gear with face shields?
Keeps the oh-so dreaded crimson element out of it.


With head guards you need gloves. Then its changes the Chi Sao. Also more neck injures with head guards.

Light head striking is what we had and that worked well

regards

Alan

[sanjuro_ronin]

With head guards you need gloves. Then its changes the Chi Sao. Also more neck injures with head guards.

Light head striking is what we had and that worked well

regards

Alan

That's cool.
Like you said before, if people wanna fight MMA ( or fight full contact) they can do that somewhere else.

[chusauli]

Congratulations to all the participants and winners.

It makes me laugh to think that people want to turn a sporting event "more realistic" by putting on gloves and allowing head contact, when in class practice duing Chi Sao, the head is not generally a target, nor one to strike full contact to.

Its more difficult to strike the chest than the face, and who (sponsor, promoter, participant or otherwise) would want to be liable for the injuries that happen when strikes are allowed to the head?

As it was, one person was injured during the event, and we're fortunate no more were.

In amateur MMA events, head striking is also limited.

The idea behind sport is that it is limited so that one can test how well one can work under the rules.

Want to fight for real? Do it in the street and see how much of your assets go to lawyers and the one you beat up. Or do MMA, but then find out that a lot of things you can't do because of the "rules".

Honestly, the cry for blood leads me to think that there is something wrong with some people. The cultural pain body?

The boys who competed were great sportsmen and enjoyed their day and had fun and showcased their WCK and hopefully lessons were learned. For the martial world, it showed the spontaneous practical aspects of WCK in a safe venue. For the non-competitors, it shows the Dharma teachings to be true, "If you speak too much you will be criticized; if you speak not enough you will be criticized; if you say nothing you will be criticized."

I guess this is life *sigh* :(

[Paul T England]

As I did not enter or even get to see the comp (apart form the video clips) I can't make much of a comment. I just hope that it will happen again and that wing chun will grow stronger because of it. Congrats to Alan and all involved.

Thanks also to Robert Chu for the Seminar at SENI, really enjoyable and thought provoking.

I was shocked that more non- CSL people didn't take advantage of the opportunity.

Paul

[sanjuro_ronin]

Congratulations to all the participants and winners.

It makes me laugh to think that people want to turn a sporting event "more realistic" by putting on gloves and allowing head contact, when in class practice duing Chi Sao, the head is not generally a target, nor one to strike full contact to.

Its more difficult to strike the chest than the face, and who (sponsor, promoter, participant or otherwise) would want to be liable for the injuries that happen when strikes are allowed to the head?

As it was, one person was injured during the event, and we're fortunate no more were.

In amateur MMA events, head striking is also limited.

The idea behind sport is that it is limited so that one can test how well one can work under the rules.

Want to fight for real? Do it in the street and see how much of your assets go to lawyers and the one you beat up. Or do MMA, but then find out that a lot of things you can't do because of the "rules".

Honestly, the cry for blood leads me to think that there is something wrong with some people. The cultural pain body?

The boys who competed were great sportsmen and enjoyed their day and had fun and showcased their WCK and hopefully lessons were learned. For the martial world, it showed the spontaneous practical aspects of WCK in a safe venue. For the non-competitors, it shows the Dharma teachings to be true, "If you speak too much you will be criticized; if you speak not enough you will be criticized; if you say nothing you will be criticized."

I guess this is life *sigh* :(

I don't see why you would say those things Robert.
Personally I was just curious to why a "head hunting" system like WC was not doing had shots, Alan answered it very well.
No need for calling anyone "bloodthirsty" or things of that nature.
Rather surprised that you would say such a thing as a matter of fact.

[t_niehoff]

An observation:

I take a very dim view of chi sao competitions. Chi sao is IMV an unrealistic exercise/drill in that it does not correspond to fighting (the way people really will move, act, respond, etc. in fighting), and so you are able to play it all kinds of different ways, put all kinds of nonsense into it, form all kinds of crazy theories from it, etc. You are able to do that because you are not constrained by the demands of fighting; it becomes a fantasy game. And that's precisely what most people in WCK do. You can see examples of that all over youtube.

But Alan and his guys are fighters. They fight, and with quality people. And they take their fighting -- the things they have found through experience work in fighting for them -- and put that into their chi sao, into the unrealistic drill that is chi sao. They start with the fight. You can see that if you compare their chi sao with their MMA fighting: you'll see the similarity. This is the opposite approach from what most people in WCK (try to) do, which is try to take their chi sao (theories of how they believe you should apply WCK) and put it into fighting (and why when that happens, you see everything they practice in chi sao go out the window). They start with the unrealistic drill. That doesn't work and is going about it backwards. That process tends to produce nonsense since the constraints of fighting aren't there to "keep you on the road." They end up practicing junk that just won't work under realistic conditions. Some get really "good" at that junk, but like all junk, it will fall apart as the conditions move toward realism. Whereas what Alan and his guys do won't fall apart because they started with stuff that they've seen works under realsitic conditions in the first place.

This is similar (albeit not identical) to shadow boxing in boxing. Shadow boxing is an unrealistic drill too. You can put anything into your shadow boxing. But good boxers draw on their boxing experience (boxing in the ring) and they take that expereince fighting (what really works for them) and put that into the drill. In that way, the drill has usefulness. Take someone that never boxes (fights) and have them shadow box and they are just moving in ways they believe (hope) will correspond to fighting. They can be practicing all kinds of nonsense.

[KPM]

Terence:

It sounds to me like, as opposed to past posts when you have shared your view that Chi Sao is unrealistic and not useful, now you are saying that Chi Sao done properly IS somewhat realistic and useful for the purpose it was designed for. As you've said, Alan and his guys are fighters, yet they still find Chi Sao training to be valuable.

[SAAMAG]

I think the fact that Alan and his guys use their knowledge from actual combat to apply to their chi sao is what makes it valuable. I can't speak for T' but I think in a nutshell that's what he's saying.

Unless you have experience fighting, you won't know what works well for you and what doesn't. You won't know what techniques in your system have merit and which ones do not. You won't know what combinations will have a higher success rate and which ones will not.

It's not a matter of being bloodthirsty, it's a matter of wanting to make sure you're not wasting your time with a non-functional MARTIAL art. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, but the reason for practicing a martial art primarily is the ability to fight / protect oneself and his or her family, right? Otherwise we'd all be taking dance lessons.

Overall--liked the idea of the competition, although the one clip I saw didn't float my boat.

[LoneTiger108]

It sounds to me like, as opposed to past posts when you have shared your view that Chi Sao is unrealistic and not useful, now you are saying that Chi Sao done properly IS somewhat realistic and useful for the purpose it was designed for. As you've said, Alan and his guys are fighters, yet they still find Chi Sao training to be valuable.

Are we saying that the Chisau we all witnessed at SENi08 ISN'T the same Chisau we commonly see in Ip Man schools? And obviously, by what Terence has said that means that all Ip Man schools are inferior because their Chisau is an 'unrealistic drill' as opposed to the CSL 'realistic drill'?

Sorry, I've got to take some more deep breaths, as this is all sounding way to insulting to many family members throughout the World! And to be honest, this is getting boring :o


It makes me laugh to think that people want to turn a sporting event "more realistic" by putting on gloves and allowing head contact, when in class practice duing Chi Sao, the head is not generally a target, nor one to strike full contact to.

Maybe this is the case in a CSL school, and I would agree that is the same as we coach at The Academy. BUT we also do not condone full contact striking to the ribs and stomach (the chest seems more durable!) but this was so evident at the competition and very dangerous imho. Chu Sifu, you practise medicine too and must see what I'm saying here. Only 1 injury on the day, but how many others are suffering today from internal damage?


I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here, but the reason for practicing a martial art primarily is the ability to fight / protect oneself and his or her family, right? Otherwise we'd all be taking dance lessons.

Yes, it looks like we all just love to practise Martial Arts to learn how to fight, but as most have agreed before "Chisau isn't fighting" so what's different about this competition?

[chusauli]

Gentlemen,

My "bloodthirsty comments" were not directed to anyone here directly.

When I was at Seni, people came up to me and made their comments to me about how unrealistic the Chi Sao event is, how it shouldn't be done, how its not representative of "real" chi sao, how their branch would do better, how its not soft, or what their branch does, and how its not practical, how not striking the head is unrealistic, how barbaric, how it will end WCK as we know it, etc. :(

Man, I got several earfulls, but I just meditated...its a sporting event. Young people want a venue to practice their art. There was a call for judges, and rules were agreed upon, all of this should be taken up with Alan and others who put this together, and Alan had agreement from other interested parties. The funny thing is - they're talking to the wrong guy... :)

Whomever partook in the event knew their risks. Body shots full contact will be less damage than headshots full contact.

What I am seeing here parallels of how Jiyu Kumite was the death of Karate Do in Funakoshi's time. Funakoshi must be chiding Nakamura now. But Nakamura could always say, "Sensei, look at how popular its become!"

We're all just talking here. No finger pointing. Let's just enjoy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gentlemen,

My "bloodthirsty comments" were not directed to anyone here directly.

When I was at Seni, people came up to me and made their comments to me about how unrealistic the Chi Sao event is, how it shouldn't be done, how its not representative of "real" chi sao, how their branch would do better, how its not soft, or what their branch does, and how its not practical, how not striking the head is unrealistic, how barbaric, how it will end WCK as we know it, etc. :(

Man, I got several earfulls, but I just meditated...its a sporting event. Young people want a venue to practice their art. There was a call for judges, and rules were agreed upon, all of this should be taken up with Alan and others who put this together, and Alan had agreement from other interested parties. The funny thing is - they're talking to the wrong guy... :)

Whomever partook in the event knew their risks. Body shots full contact will be less damage than headshots full contact.

What I am seeing here parallels of how Jiyu Kumite was the death of Karate Do in Funakoshi's time. Funakoshi must be chiding Nakamura now. But Nakamura could always say, "Sensei, look at how popular its become!"

We're all just talking here. No finger pointing. Let's just enjoy.

Ah, understood.

[t_niehoff]

Terence:

It sounds to me like, as opposed to past posts when you have shared your view that Chi Sao is unrealistic and not useful, now you are saying that Chi Sao done properly IS somewhat realistic and useful for the purpose it was designed for. As you've said, Alan and his guys are fighters, yet they still find Chi Sao training to be valuable.

No, reread my post.

I'm saying that chi sao is an unrealistic drill. But -- and here is the important but -- if fighters use it, if they take what they do in fighting and put it in chi sao, then it can have limited usefulness (primarily as a teaching/learning platform). For those who aren't fighters and don't take their fighting and put it in the exercise, it is a fantasy game and essentially useless. Alan's guys find chi sao useful because they are fighting.

However, they don't need chi sao.

[t_niehoff]

Are we saying that the Chisau we all witnessed at SENi08 ISN'T the same Chisau we commonly see in Ip Man schools? And obviously, by what Terence has said that means that all Ip Man schools are inferior because their Chisau is an 'unrealistic drill' as opposed to the CSL 'realistic drill'?


You too apparently have a problem with reading comprehension.

The drill/exercise (chi sao) itself is by its very nature unrealistic. It doesn't correspond to the conditions you will encounter in fighting. It will always be unrealistic.

But while the drill itself is unrealistic, what you put into that drill -- how you move, your structure, your technique, etc. -- can be more or less realistic. In other words, you can move more or less simliarly in the drill as you would in fighting. You can't learn to move like you would in fighting from chi sao, because it is unrealistic and won't give you the conditions to see what will and will not work in fighting. You can only determine that for yourself by fighting. Once you determine that, you can take that and put it in the drill. This is embodied in the kuit about "there are no flowery hands in chi sao."

The problem when people don't fight is that they can't help but develop flowery hands, because the unrealistic nature of the drill/exercise permits it (you can get away with all kinds of junk in unrealistic exercises). Fighting is what "keeps you on the road" of realism. So they teach and practice, through chi sao, all sorts of flowery nonsense.

[LoneTiger108]

You too apparently have a problem with reading comprehension.

I know :o Sometimes you just don't explain yourself well imo.

BUT, what you posted above makes sense to me. I do get it. I'm not saying you've converted me yet T! But that was some good writing and I hope you continue...


This is embodied in the kuit about "there are no flowery hands in chi sao."

It seems that what we put in is what we get out.

As long as a good foundation is present, of which you must have surely!

So, can this Competition develop and become a major event at the SENi Expo? After all is said and done, I for one hope so...

[JPinAZ]

No, reread my post.

I'm saying that chi sao is an unrealistic drill. But -- and here is the important but -- if fighters use it, if they take what they do in fighting and put it in chi sao, then it can have limited usefulness (primarily as a teaching/learning platform). For those who aren't fighters and don't take their fighting and put it in the exercise, it is a fantasy game and essentially useless. Alan's guys find chi sao useful because they are fighting.

However, they don't need chi sao.

And coming from an admitted non-fighter - just speaking from other's experince again :rolleyes:
Anyway, if they find it useful, and continue to use it, how can you say they don't 'need' it. That's like saying punching people in the face is useful, or bag work is useful, but you don't 'need' it.... simply rediculous. Sure, we don't 'need' anything if that's our preferencel, but if something helps improve our fighting, or someone finds it useful, then why say they/we/you don't need it? Who are you anyway?

And yes, after re-reading your first post, it does come off as saying that unless you are Alan and his guys, Chi Sau sucks and everything/everyone else doing it is junk. Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but that's exactly how it comes out.

BTW, glad to see the comp had a positive outcome. Hope it continues.

[HardWork8]

Terence did not just put down all the other lineages that practice chi sao, but also all the other Shaolin arts that use this type of sensitivity training. Obviously Terence and his modernist colleagues are more enlightened than all the kung fu masters throughout the ages who used chi sao practice in their arts.

I missed Seni but based on the opinions of a Siu Lam Wing Chun colleague who is in London and made it to Seni, as well some of the videos of the Chi sao competition that I saw, I believe that this is a good way to go as regards the "testing" of Wing Chun techniques.

It will have its limitations because of the sporting arena but this is something that has been devised by Wing Chun experts (Rober Chu and Alan Orr)and not some wannabe kung fu-ists(who also happen to be "experts" in a dozen other martial arts). So in theory it should continue to maintain its Wing Chun essence.

I hope that this lineage of Wing Chun continues to develop and evolve so that it will continue to contribute to the richness of the martial art that is Wing Chun.

HW8

[t_niehoff]

And coming from an admitted non-fighter - just speaking from other's experince again :rolleyes:


I never "admitted" any such thing, and I speak from my experience. Go back to your magical mystery tour with your fantasy-based nonsense. Come back when you find Wang Ming. And good luck with that.



Anyway, if they find it useful, and continue to use it, how can you say they don't 'need' it. That's like saying punching people in the face is useful, or bag work is useful, but you don't 'need' it.... simply rediculous. Sure, we don't 'need' anything if that's our preferencel, but if something helps improve our fighting, or someone finds it useful, then why say they/we/you don't need it? Who are you anyway?


Chi sao has limited usefulness at best. For guys like you, it is a fantasy-based game. For fighters, it can be WCK with the training wheels on. Once you can ride the bike (as Alan's guys can), you don't need the training wheels. Of course, you can learn to ride the bike without the training wheels in the first place. But if some want to use them, that is up to them.



And yes, after re-reading your first post, it does come off as saying that unless you are Alan and his guys, Chi Sau sucks and everything/everyone else doing it is junk. Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but that's exactly how it comes out.


No, it doesn't. I said that if you are a fighter and take your fighting, the things that works for you (start with the fight), and you put that into your chi sao -- now follow this: as Alan and his guys have done -- then your chi sao has limited usefulness. Of course, anyone can do this. I know Alan's guys aren't the only ones who have. :) Just as I know that the fantasy-based guys like you never do.


And, HW8, please don't talk to me. You and I are not on the same planet.

[Ned]

I see T's practice is slowing down again. The only fanasty is sitting behind his lawyer desk letting out ****.

[t_niehoff]

I see T's practice is slowing down again. The only fanasty is sitting behind his lawyer desk letting out ****.


I guess you expect me to be at my office at 10:39 pm? Another HFY moron. Oh, sorry, that was an oxymoron. ;)

Listen, HFY cultmembers, I want nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with any of you or your silly, unhealthy "system." Nothing. I don't take you or HFY seriously. So, if you stay away from me, I'll be more than happy to stay away from you and any topic HFY- related. But if you want to a pest, including by interjecting yourself into my conversations, I'll be happy to return the favor.

[CFT]

HW8 - there was more input than just Robert Chu and Alan Orr, there was input from other UK Wing Chun organisations.

I think that Terence has got to the core of his issue with chi sau with the "flowery hands" comment. People who stay in that "multi-move", multi-beats per action chi sau then it would totally break down if they tried to carry it through to fighting. We should be striving to strip it down to what can realistically work, and the experience of those who fight can inform us as to what works and what does not.

[t_niehoff]

I think that Terence has got to the core of his issue with chi sau with the "flowery hands" comment. People who stay in that "multi-move", multi-beats per action chi sau then it would totally break down if they tried to carry it through to fighting. We should be striving to strip it down to what can realistically work, and the experience of those who fight can inform us as to what works and what does not.

Chee, for me, the results in the ch sao competition per se are meaningless. What I think is significant is that if you look at their chi sao and compare that to their MMA fighting, you see a close correspondence in terms of their action (they move in the same way). This shows that what they are doing in fighting they are practicing in chi sao. That "deflowering" comes, and can only come, by taking your fighting -- which is the only way to know what you can do or not in a realistic situation -- and putting that into your chi sao. This is starting with the fight or letting application be your sifu.

How "good" someone is in a drill or exercise, I think is a silly question. How good is your focus mitt practice or how good are you on the heavy bag? The usefulness of any drill or exercise can only be measured -- not by performance of the drill or exercise itself -- but by your target performance, the goal of that drill or exercise, which is ultimately to develop your fighting skill. Since skill comes from performance of the skill, it follows that the closer the drill replicate the target action (1-to-1), the more effective the drill will be.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that sometimes people confuse drills that were designed to develop certain attributes with the end goal of apply those attributes.
Demolishing the HB, like I do for example, is great and shows power and speed, but has little to do with fighting skill, unless one is fighting a heavy bag.
It does, however, show how good ones striking mechanics are.
Striking mechanics being 1 part of the fighting skill set, though not fighting skills per say.
Same thing with Thai pads and so forth.

In the end, the only way to judge anyone's fighting ability is seeing them fight, and even then, the context of the fight must be take into account.

[gabe]

Chi sao has limited usefulness at best. For guys like you, it is a fantasy-based game. For fighters, it can be WCK with the training wheels on. Once you can ride the bike (as Alan's guys can), you don't need the training wheels. Of course, you can learn to ride the bike without the training wheels in the first place. But if some want to use them, that is up to them.



.

Wow, a whole tournament was built around "training wheels" with limited usefulness!

And didn't you say Alan and his guys train it for tradition's sake alone? Wow, a whole tournament organized for the sake of tradition.

[Paul T England]

So what is a drill?

what is Chi Sau?

Surely they can be whatever you want them to be? You can't call chi sau competition a drill as you have a resisting opponent IMHO.

You might not like the rules (I would prefer only attached hitting for example) but its a fair competition (game) which people can test their skills and see what works.

For those that say chi sau is this or that, what about the fact that chi sau was developed by a few people and has constantly developed in its short lifetime? I have seem many different types of chi sau both in Europe and Mainland China and the differences in some methods is great.

blah blah...sorry to ramble.

Paul

[gabe]

I think that sometimes people confuse drills that were designed to develop certain attributes with the end goal of apply those attributes.
Demolishing the HB, like I do for example, is great and shows power and speed, but has little to do with fighting skill, unless one is fighting a heavy bag.
It does, however, show how good ones striking mechanics are.
Striking mechanics being 1 part of the fighting skill set, though not fighting skills per say.
Same thing with Thai pads and so forth.

In the end, the only way to judge anyone's fighting ability is seeing them fight, and even then, the context of the fight must be take into account.

The HB certainly has to do with fighting, there is a direct correlation between the attributes you develop with the HB and what you do in fighting. If there wasn't , you or any boxer wouldn't be wasting your time with it. If you didn't have those attributes of power and mechanics that you use the HB to develop, you aren't going to be much of a fighter. If I see you use the same punching combo's you use on the HB in the ring against a live opponent- that's pretty direct usefulness.

Does that mean HB are the only way to go? No. It's a useful tool. And if you can fight and you say that HB work helps you win your fights, then it is actually quite foolish and ridiculous for anyone to contradict that. Totally agree with you that you've got to see the person fight to judge his ability, but none of us except the fighter himself can tell you how he got there. Not arguing with you btw sanjuro.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The HB certainly has to do with fighting, there is a direct correlation between the attributes you develop with the HB and what you do in fighting. If there wasn't , you or any boxer wouldn't be wasting your time with it. If you didn't have those attributes of power and mechanics that you use the HB to develop, you aren't going to be much of a fighter. If I see you use the same punching combo's you use on the HB in the ring against a live opponent- that's pretty direct usefulness.

Does that mean HB are the only way to go? No. It's a useful tool. And if you can fight and you say that HB work helps you win your fights, then it is actually quite foolish and ridiculous for anyone to contradict that. Totally agree with you that you've got to see the person fight to judge his ability, but none of us except the fighter himself can tell you how he got there. Not arguing with you btw sanjuro.

I agree, more often than not, you can get a good idea of someone fighting skill from the HB, not by how hard they hit it, but by how they "fight it".

[Ned]

Take you seriously?
I wonder if you still have your bar by the amount of time you spend making reduncent posts.
Take you seriously?
By the amount of lurking you do on hfy108, it contridicts your mumbo jumbo about wanting NOTHING and staying away.
Take you seriously?
While you sit behind your desk letting out pixie gas and inhaling.

[osprey3883]

Listen, HFY cultmembers, I want nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with any of you or your silly, unhealthy "system." Nothing. I don't take you or HFY seriously. So, if you stay away from me, I'll be more than happy to stay away from you and any topic HFY- related. But if you want to a pest, including by interjecting yourself into my conversations, I'll be happy to return the favor.

Terrence,

When someone not speaking as a representative of HFY (Jonathan) calls you on the contradicting posts you have put on the forum your approach to "you (HFY) leave me alone I leave you alone" is to start talking crap about past leaders of the HFY family?
It is hard enough to take your posts seriously under normal circumstances, but when you act so blatantly stupid you paint a huge target on your chest.

Matt

[t_niehoff]

So what is a drill?

what is Chi Sau?


Drills are just exercises intended to teach and/or develop something (conditioning, skill, etc.). Chi sao fits that bill.



Surely they can be whatever you want them to be? You can't call chi sau competition a drill as you have a resisting opponent IMHO.


You can -- and need to -- have a resisting opponent in a drill if you want to develop skills to oversome a resisting opponent. Sparring is a drill. But, keep in mind, that just because there is someone resisiting, that doesn't make the drill realistic -- they need to be resisting realistically (as people will really do in fighting) for it to be a realistic drill. In chi sao, people don't resist realistically (they are not behaving, reacting, doing the things they would in a fight).



You might not like the rules (I would prefer only attached hitting for example) but its a fair competition (game) which people can test their skills and see what works.


They can only see what works against an unrealistically resisting opponent. So you are not seeing what will really works or if you really have skills if you faced someone who was realistically resisting you. You can only see that from fighting. And that's the stuff you need to put into your chi sao if you want practice stuff that is realistic.



For those that say chi sau is this or that, what about the fact that chi sau was developed by a few people and has constantly developed in its short lifetime? I have seem many different types of chi sau both in Europe and Mainland China and the differences in some methods is great.

blah blah...sorry to ramble.

Paul

So what? What makes you think this development is good? Or that different "types" of chi sao is a good thing?

[t_niehoff]

Terrence,

When someone not speaking as a representative of HFY (Jonathan) calls you on the contradicting posts you have put on the forum your approach to "you (HFY) leave me alone I leave you alone" is to start talking crap about past leaders of the HFY family?
It is hard enough to take your posts seriously under normal circumstances, but when you act so blatantly stupid you paint a huge target on your chest.

Matt

Why do you guys always start your posts with LIES? I haven't posted anything contradictory. You, like Jonathan, just made this up. I don't know why you guys lie. But you do, and then you just keep repeating the lie as though it were true.

Don't take my posts seriously -- I don't care. You guys are on another planet. I want nothing to do with you guys, you're all nuttier than a squirrel's stool. Just build yourself a compound in Texas and keep preaching The Gospel Accornding to Garrett. Don't try to talk WCK with me -- as far as I'm concerned you guys don't do WCK.

[JPinAZ]

T,

I ask you questions only to you, and you start whining and crying like a little girl about HFY in general, all it's memebers, past and previous, etc.
You can make all the stupid comments you want, it only shows how unstable you are when your center is tested even the slightest bit. most likely why you don't understand chi sau. Or WC, or anything else - and probably why you continue to lurk the HFY forums you say you want no part of.

Sure you speak from experience, more-so a LACK of experience. That's why you come off as such a moron. You're a waste of time. Probably why we can't talk WC with you - you just wouldn't get it...

[JPinAZ]

As far as Chi Sau, from what I am taught, it is much more than just a training tool. Chi sau training has many drills that teach us the tools/concepts for bridging that are directly used in fighting. It teaches bridging from all angles, from a contact stage, or pre-contact stge, one arm, two arms, wrist contact, fore-arm contact, how to travel along the bridge, etc, etc. Chi sau teaches us how to bridge and work with bridges - if someone wants to say there is not bridging in a fight, then they have probably never been in a fight. If there's a bridge, there can be chi sau (as long as there is a challenge on the bridge anyway)

So, to say that Chi sau isn't used in fighting doesn't make one bit of sense to me. If there is a bridge created during a fight, then there is use for 'chi sau'. And I'm not talking about just the squared-up steering wheel training platform of just taan/bong/fook chi sau. Yes, this is a useful training tool, but it doesn't mean it's the only component of chi sau bridge trainig. And it doesn't mean that it's not useful in a fight. Those that say this only show they have a lot to learn about chi sau and fighting in general.

What's most funny is how a whole competition can be formed around something as 'useless' as 'chi sau' - boy these people that were at Seni must have a lot to learn I guess :rolleyes: Or maybe they just understand WC and how it works and see it's usefullness.

[t_niehoff]

T,

I ask you questions only to you, and you start whining and crying like a little girl about HFY in general, all it's memebers, past and previous, etc.
You can make all the stupid comments you want, it only shows how unstable you are when your center is tested even the slightest bit. most likely why you don't understand chi sau. Or WC, or anything else - and probably why you continue to lurk the HFY forums you say you want no part of.

Sure you speak from experience, more-so a LACK of experience. That's why you come off as such a moron. You're a waste of time.

Besides the poor grammar ("I ask you questions only to you") and the HFY-speak ("when you center is tested"), it seems you got my message. Great! I don't want anything to do with you, HFY, or anything assoicated with HFY. And it seems you feel the same way about me, as I'm a "waste of time." Then stay away from me, leave me alone, and I'll stay away from you people.

[KPM]

Hey Terence!

You can -- and need to -- have a resisting opponent in a drill if you want to develop skills to oversome a resisting opponent. Sparring is a drill. But, keep in mind, that just because there is someone resisiting, that doesn't make the drill realistic -- they need to be resisting realistically (as people will really do in fighting) for it to be a realistic drill. In chi sao, people don't resist realistically (they are not behaving, reacting, doing the things they would in a fight).

---You continue to express a very negative opinion of Chi Sao. Yet you said this about Judo's Randori:

"Judo will develop a certain skill set to a functional level (where it works) because its training method (randori) involves realistic training of that skill set. Its randori is NOT like chi sao, which isn't a realistic training method at all."

---What I've seen of Judo Randori involves two guys wearing heavy reinforced jackets holding onto each other's lapels and working for position and balance to execute the throw. I've haven't seen "classic" Judo Randori that involved either partner throwing boxing punches or Muay Thai kicks so that the other partner can practice his throws. So how is this any different from Chi Sao? My experience of Judo is limited, so please help me out. How is Judo Randori any more "realistic" than Chi Sao? It seems to me that Judo Randori works the "standing grapple" range as their specialty and Chi Sao works the "arm bridging/engagement" range as our specialty. Its a way to put an emphasis on what we train to be good at. That's not to say that other things shouldn't be trained! But how are these two drills different?

[SAAMAG]

Hey Terence!

You can -- and need to -- have a resisting opponent in a drill if you want to develop skills to oversome a resisting opponent. Sparring is a drill. But, keep in mind, that just because there is someone resisiting, that doesn't make the drill realistic -- they need to be resisting realistically (as people will really do in fighting) for it to be a realistic drill. In chi sao, people don't resist realistically (they are not behaving, reacting, doing the things they would in a fight).

---You continue to express a very negative opinion of Chi Sao. Yet you said this about Judo's Randori:

"Judo will develop a certain skill set to a functional level (where it works) because its training method (randori) involves realistic training of that skill set. Its randori is NOT like chi sao, which isn't a realistic training method at all."

---What I've seen of Judo Randori involves two guys wearing heavy reinforced jackets holding onto each other's lapels and working for position and balance to execute the throw. I've haven't seen "classic" Judo Randori that involved either partner throwing boxing punches or Muay Thai kicks so that the other partner can practice his throws. So how is this any different from Chi Sao? My experience of Judo is limited, so please help me out. How is Judo Randori any more "realistic" than Chi Sao? It seems to me that Judo Randori works the "standing grapple" range as their specialty and Chi Sao works the "arm bridging/engagement" range as our specialty. Its a way to put an emphasis on what we train to be good at. That's not to say that other things shouldn't be trained! But how are these two drills different?

I know you've directed this to Terence, but it peaked my interest. You make a **** good point, and it makes sense. I thought about that myself years ago...and to fix the issue I would augment sparring drills by mixing them up.

For example, one guy would put on some boxing gloves and shin guards, and the other guy would have nothing. The goal of this was to have the striker do his best to stop the grappler, and for the grappler to do his best to takedown the opponent and go for subs.

The reason I might put randori over chi sao as far as fighting value is concerned is because of the realistic environment, the intensity of the actions, and the mindset of the practicitioners.

In randori, both partners are in a realistic starting position (which can change change whenever need be), going at things hard, and trying their best to overtake the opponent with a throw and then expand with groundwork and eventually going to a submission.

In chi sao more often than not you've got two partners who are hitting at less than adaquate force, which lends itself to inadaquate countering techniques which leads to bad skill developmenton a functional level. The drill's structure doesn't lend itself to a realistic atmosphere as in it's traditional form it has no room to grow or expand.

Now if you take the drill, and start from standing further away, work on closing in (any standup style), bridging (chi sao), to close hitting (wing chun) to a standing grapple (MT, judo), perhaps some elbows here (MT, wing chun, JKD) to a takedown (judo, BJJ, Sanshou, etc) to a ground game (judo, bjj, and any other sub art), that would be a great drill! But wait...that looks an awful lot like sparring...; )

*(those styles in parenthesis are just examples, of course any art that focuses on those ranges would work in lieu of).

[KPM]

I know you've directed this to Terence, but it peaked my interest. You make a **** good point, and it makes sense. I thought about that myself years ago...and to fix the issue I would augment sparring drills by mixing them up.

For example, one guy would put on some boxing gloves and shin guards, and the other guy would have nothing. The goal of this was to have the striker do his best to stop the grappler, and for the grappler to do his best to takedown the opponent and go for subs.

The reason I might put randori over chi sao as far as fighting value is concerned is because of the realistic environment, the intensity of the actions, and the mindset of the practicitioners.

In randori, both partners are in a realistic starting position (which can change change whenever need be), going at things hard, and trying their best to overtake the opponent with a throw and then expand with groundwork and eventually going to a submission.

In chi sao more often than not you've got two partners who are hitting at less than adaquate force, which lends itself to inadaquate countering techniques which leads to bad skill developmenton a functional level. The drill's structure doesn't lend itself to a realistic atmosphere as in it's traditional form it has no room to grow or expand.

Now if you take the drill, and start from standing further away, work on closing in (any standup style), bridging (chi sao), to close hitting (wing chun) to a standing grapple (MT, judo), perhaps some elbows here (MT, wing chun, JKD) to a takedown (judo, BJJ, Sanshou, etc) to a ground game (judo, bjj, and any other sub art), that would be a great drill! But wait...that looks an awful lot like sparring...; )

*(those styles in parenthesis are just examples, of course any art that focuses on those ranges would work in lieu of).


---Good points. But again, as has been pointed out on several occasions, the purpose of the training method is to develop the range at which the system concentrates or excels. Judo Randori develops the standing grapple where Judo excels. Chi Sao develops the contact bridging at which Wing Chun excels. They are developmental training exercises, not ends in themselves. So how is Judo Randori then any more "realistic" and "useful" than Wing Chun Chi Sao?

[couch]

---Good points. But again, as has been pointed out on several occasions, the purpose of the training method is to develop the range at which the system concentrates or excels. Judo Randori develops the standing grapple where Judo excels. Chi Sao develops the contact bridging at which Wing Chun excels. They are developmental training exercises, not ends in themselves. So how is Judo Randori then any more "realistic" and "useful" than Wing Chun Chi Sao?

Not a Judo person, however...can we look at this problem from its inverse:

How could a person make Randori less realistic? Maybe this way we can see why 'some' Chi Sau isn't realistic...

One idea:
1. The Uke doesn't provide any progressive resistance to the technique and just allows to be thrown.

[duende]

In chi sao more often than not you've got two partners who are hitting at less than adaquate force, which lends itself to inadaquate countering techniques which leads to bad skill developmenton a functional level. The drill's structure doesn't lend itself to a realistic atmosphere as in it's traditional form it has no room to grow or expand.

This is simply rolling hands or "poon sau"



Now if you take the drill, and start from standing further away, work on closing in (any standup style), bridging (chi sao), to close hitting (wing chun) to a standing grapple (MT, judo), perhaps some elbows here (MT, wing chun, JKD) to a takedown (judo, BJJ, Sanshou, etc) to a ground game (judo, bjj, and any other sub art), that would be a great drill! But wait...that looks an awful lot like sparring...; )


This IS Chi Sau. Bridging from all ranges without any predetermined facing or contact. (as Jonathon pointed out earlier :)).

Unfortunatley there are those that would pigeon whole the notion of Chi Sau into one simple non-realistic drill as in poon sau for esample. However if you look at the bigger picture of TCMAs in general and Chi Sau's (along with Kiu Sau's :p) role in them historically, you will find that there is much much more to it including exactly what you describe above. In fact the "rolling aspect" of it is just one of many techniques or drills that work together to develop a true sense of bridging. Be it long range and learning how to close the gap, apply strategy and establish good facing. Or striking range and putting time on your side and controlling angles of attack. Or grappling range and learning how to control leverage, apply structure and shut down space.

These topics somehow always end in silly online arguments. People get very territorial over what is WC and what is Chi Sau.

For myself, I am glad the Seni tournament went well. Personally I don't agree with all of the rules (no headshots for example), but I understand that they are trying to make things safe and that this tournament is a work in progress.



Best to all and good training.

[SAAMAG]

Not a Judo person, however...can we look at this problem from its inverse:

How could a person make Randori less realistic? Maybe this way we can see why 'some' Chi Sau isn't realistic...

One idea:
1. The Uke doesn't provide any progressive resistance to the technique and just allows to be thrown.

Good points, that's the point I was going to make. The stuctures of the drills are the same, with the same intent for each respective art. So from that respect KPM is spot on.

But the reaslism and intent of chi sao is more often than not building more of a false sense of security rather than actual fighting skills. Same thing if the judoka during randori were half arsing their drills.

[t_niehoff]

Hey Terence!

You can -- and need to -- have a resisting opponent in a drill if you want to develop skills to oversome a resisting opponent. Sparring is a drill. But, keep in mind, that just because there is someone resisiting, that doesn't make the drill realistic -- they need to be resisting realistically (as people will really do in fighting) for it to be a realistic drill. In chi sao, people don't resist realistically (they are not behaving, reacting, doing the things they would in a fight).

---You continue to express a very negative opinion of Chi Sao. Yet you said this about Judo's Randori:

"Judo will develop a certain skill set to a functional level (where it works) because its training method (randori) involves realistic training of that skill set. Its randori is NOT like chi sao, which isn't a realistic training method at all."

---What I've seen of Judo Randori involves two guys wearing heavy reinforced jackets holding onto each other's lapels and working for position and balance to execute the throw. I've haven't seen "classic" Judo Randori that involved either partner throwing boxing punches or Muay Thai kicks so that the other partner can practice his throws. So how is this any different from Chi Sao? My experience of Judo is limited, so please help me out. How is Judo Randori any more "realistic" than Chi Sao? It seems to me that Judo Randori works the "standing grapple" range as their specialty and Chi Sao works the "arm bridging/engagement" range as our specialty. Its a way to put an emphasis on what we train to be good at. That's not to say that other things shouldn't be trained! But how are these two drills different?

To know if a drill is realistic or not (or how realistic it is), you need to look at whether what is going on in the drill (the action) corresponds to what goes on in fighting, particularly what your opponent is doing -- if your opponent is behaving, reacting, doing the things an opponent will really do in a fighting/sparring situation. By opponent, I mean someone not necessarily in your particular art. And it also helps to look at what a good opponent will do.

Your confusion arises because oftentimes martial arts have a limited focus. In the case of judo, it is jacket wrestling with ground submissions. While the skill set may be limited, the way they train those skills are realistic. Put anyone is a jacket and have them wrestle, and it will look like randori. Put them in a fight and when they come to grips, if they are wearing clothes, it will look like randori (where you grab the cloth, etc.) Of course, they are not going to develop striking skills, but they will develop skillls throwing that way. You can see that if you put what they do practice into fighting -- you see they will move exactly the same way as they do in randori or sparring (1-to-1). That 1-to-1 correspondence is what defines the drill as realistic (you practice just as you do it; the practice is the activity itself).

You said WCK's focus was "the 'arm bridging/engagement' range", and on a very general level, I agree. Take anyone and start in "the 'arm bridging/engagement' range" and have them fight, and you will see that it won't look anything like chi sao as it is practiced or taught. In fact, the luk sao position -- the arm clinging position -- will never happen! People won't behave like a "WCK practitioner". When was the last MMA fight where you saw anything that looked like chi sao? People in WCK don't just start in bridge contact and fight. That would be realistic training. What they use is an unrealistic representation (chi sao) of fighting in that range.

The problem with chi sao is that the participants aren't behaving, acting, doing the things people will in fighting, so it doesn't correspond to the fight. In fact, they are taught not to behave realsitic ways but in crazy-@ss "WCK ways". So when you do chi sao, you aren't facing an oppoinent that is behaving realistically. They are doing all kinds of nonsense that they can get away with because the drill, and their partner, permit it. They do this nonsense consensually, by agreement.

To be good at that range, you need to fight at that range, and with good people. You can't know what really works or doesn't work if your opponent is not behaving realistically. Then, if you want to, you can take that and put it into chi sao.

[chusauli]

Here's the rules, what would you change?

Chi Sau Rules of Engagement

Start in Chi Sao Roll Position – Referee starts the round after 3 rolls

Full Contact strikes below the neck and touch contact above the neck

You can touch contact strike the above the neck with open hand strikes. i.e. palm or chop, but not to the nose. (You cannot strike at the Triangle of the face – Eyes, Nose, Mouth)

You can Push / Press / Pull / Grab / Hold the head, but no closed fist striking to the head

You can strike the body full contact using the Forearm, but not the Elbow

You can Punch / Palm / Chop / Knee / Kick below the neck

If the roll is broken the fight can continue for 5 seconds before the referee restarts the from the roll position.

You can kick from distance if roll breaks, but you can only punch with bridge contact

Fighters can clinch, but will be restarted after 5 seconds

A fighter may apply a submission, but this must be standing or with only one knee down

You can Throw and Trip, but you cannot Shoot a takedown from distance

If one fighter is on the ground and the other is in a one knee down position then the referee will restart both fighters after 5 seconds. Example would be a fighter throws opponent and holds them down with a knee on the body

If both fighters go to the ground then the referee will restart the fighters in the Roll Position

You Can Grab Pressure Points

Forbidden Strikes:
No Closed Fist Strikes Above Shoulder Level
No Finger Striking
No Heavy strikes above the shoulders (touch contact only)
No Elbows (you can use the forearms below the neck)
No Strikes to Joints
No Striking the Spine or Back of the Neck / Head
No Twisting the Neck or Cranks
No Strikes to the Kidneys
No Small Joint Locks (Fingers)
No Stamping Kicks
No Groin Strikes
No Strikes to the Nose, Eyes or Mouth
No Eye Gouging or Fish Hooking
No Grabbing the Ears
No Hair Pulling, Biting
No Thumbing
No Scratching and Pinching
No Kicking a Downed Opponent
No Products on hands that can affect opponent
No slippery substances allowed on body or clothing

The Referee can stop the fight during the match when:
Heavy head contact is made to give a Warning or Disqualification
A competitor is aiming at, or hits, an illegal area
One or both competitors go to the floor together
At opponent has been held on the floor for 5 seconds
Needs to stop action to prevent injury.
To restart after a 5 second break in Chi Sao or either or both fighters are out of bounds
Any other action not covered by the rules in which safety is an issue.

Judging Guidelines

POINTS GAINED FOR
Control of the Ring
Holding Stance i.e. not being backed up
Control Opponents Balance
Clean Striking to the Head or Body - Structure and technique (stance and movements) / Timing and
speed /Control of power and distance
Proactive Aggression i.e. Coming to fight not stall
Sensitivity/Reaction Skills

POINTS LOST FOR
Not being able to keep control of your stance or balance
Holding without controlling or striking
Being hit without any defence of blow or counter
Being thrown
Lack of Proactive Aggression i.e. Stalling
Contact to any illegal target area
Attacking the opponent after the Referee has stopped the action
Running out of the ring area or deliberately disengaging and stalling
Forward pressure with no control ie just rushing into your opponent
without bridge control
A warning from the Referee

DISQUALIFICATION
A competitor shall be disqualified immediately upon a second Warning or if the foul was deliberate.
Competitors who are disqualified in a match shall be considered to have lost the match
Deliberate or serious violations of the rules means a fighter can be disqualified without having previously
received any warnings.
Disqualification over a warning will be issued by the Referee and will then need
to be agreed with by the judges.
Rude behaviour / Language to opponent or Referee / Judges / Staff
PLEASE NOTE IF A FIGHTER TRIES TO DELIBERATELY HURT AN OPPONENT OUTSIDE THE RULES THEN THEY ARE LEAVING THEMSELVES OPEN TO CIVIL ACTION.

WAYS TO WIN
KO – An opponent cannot continue
TKO – Referee stops the Fight if the opponent is not defending or trying to counter
Submission – An opponent Taps Out
Points – Judges decision – The majority of votes of the Scoring Judges determines the winner in each match.
Overall performance. The judges will determine the winner by the 10 /9 system.
10 to the Winner the round, 9 to the Loser of the round

If the Round is won very strongly then it may be awarded as a 10 /8 round

Judges will have to log key points for each round based on the guidelines of points gain or lose criteria in order to show why they gave the round.

[t_niehoff]

Not a Judo person, however...can we look at this problem from its inverse:

How could a person make Randori less realistic? Maybe this way we can see why 'some' Chi Sau isn't realistic...

One idea:
1. The Uke doesn't provide any progressive resistance to the technique and just allows to be thrown.


Aikido.

It has randori too. But aikido practitioners don't develop the realistic skills (functional skills) that judoka do. Why? Because they are not facing good opponents that behave realistically, but face people who by training behave in unrealsitic ways, in ways that don't correspond to fighting. So they never develop the skill to deal with people that behave in realsitic ways -- they develop great skill at handling people who behave in their own particular unrealsitc way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here's the rules, what would you change?

Chi Sau Rules of Engagement

Start in Chi Sao Roll Position – Referee starts the round after 3 rolls

Full Contact strikes below the neck and touch contact above the neck

You can touch contact strike the above the neck with open hand strikes. i.e. palm or chop, but not to the nose. (You cannot strike at the Triangle of the face – Eyes, Nose, Mouth)

You can Push / Press / Pull / Grab / Hold the head, but no closed fist striking to the head

You can strike the body full contact using the Forearm, but not the Elbow

You can Punch / Palm / Chop / Knee / Kick below the neck

If the roll is broken the fight can continue for 5 seconds before the referee restarts the from the roll position.

You can kick from distance if roll breaks, but you can only punch with bridge contact

Fighters can clinch, but will be restarted after 5 seconds

A fighter may apply a submission, but this must be standing or with only one knee down

You can Throw and Trip, but you cannot Shoot a takedown from distance

If one fighter is on the ground and the other is in a one knee down position then the referee will restart both fighters after 5 seconds. Example would be a fighter throws opponent and holds them down with a knee on the body

If both fighters go to the ground then the referee will restart the fighters in the Roll Position

You Can Grab Pressure Points

Forbidden Strikes:
No Closed Fist Strikes Above Shoulder Level
No Finger Striking
No Heavy strikes above the shoulders (touch contact only)
No Elbows (you can use the forearms below the neck)
No Strikes to Joints
No Striking the Spine or Back of the Neck / Head
No Twisting the Neck or Cranks
No Strikes to the Kidneys
No Small Joint Locks (Fingers)
No Stamping Kicks
No Groin Strikes
No Strikes to the Nose, Eyes or Mouth
No Eye Gouging or Fish Hooking
No Grabbing the Ears
No Hair Pulling, Biting
No Thumbing
No Scratching and Pinching
No Kicking a Downed Opponent
No Products on hands that can affect opponent
No slippery substances allowed on body or clothing

The Referee can stop the fight during the match when:
Heavy head contact is made to give a Warning or Disqualification
A competitor is aiming at, or hits, an illegal area
One or both competitors go to the floor together
At opponent has been held on the floor for 5 seconds
Needs to stop action to prevent injury.
To restart after a 5 second break in Chi Sao or either or both fighters are out of bounds
Any other action not covered by the rules in which safety is an issue.

Judging Guidelines

POINTS GAINED FOR
Control of the Ring
Holding Stance i.e. not being backed up
Control Opponents Balance
Clean Striking to the Head or Body - Structure and technique (stance and movements) / Timing and
speed /Control of power and distance
Proactive Aggression i.e. Coming to fight not stall
Sensitivity/Reaction Skills

POINTS LOST FOR
Not being able to keep control of your stance or balance
Holding without controlling or striking
Being hit without any defence of blow or counter
Being thrown
Lack of Proactive Aggression i.e. Stalling
Contact to any illegal target area
Attacking the opponent after the Referee has stopped the action
Running out of the ring area or deliberately disengaging and stalling
Forward pressure with no control ie just rushing into your opponent
without bridge control
A warning from the Referee

DISQUALIFICATION
A competitor shall be disqualified immediately upon a second Warning or if the foul was deliberate.
Competitors who are disqualified in a match shall be considered to have lost the match
Deliberate or serious violations of the rules means a fighter can be disqualified without having previously
received any warnings.
Disqualification over a warning will be issued by the Referee and will then need
to be agreed with by the judges.
Rude behaviour / Language to opponent or Referee / Judges / Staff
PLEASE NOTE IF A FIGHTER TRIES TO DELIBERATELY HURT AN OPPONENT OUTSIDE THE RULES THEN THEY ARE LEAVING THEMSELVES OPEN TO CIVIL ACTION.

WAYS TO WIN
KO – An opponent cannot continue
TKO – Referee stops the Fight if the opponent is not defending or trying to counter
Submission – An opponent Taps Out
Points – Judges decision – The majority of votes of the Scoring Judges determines the winner in each match.
Overall performance. The judges will determine the winner by the 10 /9 system.
10 to the Winner the round, 9 to the Loser of the round

If the Round is won very strongly then it may be awarded as a 10 /8 round

Judges will have to log key points for each round based on the guidelines of points gain or lose criteria in order to show why they gave the round.

I find that there is a lack of audience participation.
Allowing the audience to get involved, perhaps by throwing chairs and assorted beverages or maybe allowing audience member to run in and groin kick someone.
That is much more realistic and in line with the goal of Wing Chun which is, as we all know, beating up homeless people.

:D

[chusauli]

In handgun shooting, its very much unrealistic in training, however some instructors (Mas Ayoob, Steve Wenger, Ray Chapman and others) have recognized that self defense shooting is not the same as target shooting. Targets don't shoot back, don't move, don't threaten you, etc. Also, there's no stress when you unholster, take aim and shoot with your nice ear protection.

In times of stress, there is an adrenaline dump, and fine motor skills are generally shot - you go into fight or flight mode. Reloading is a task, your hearing is gone after shooting without protection, and you have probably have pee'd or pooped in your pants. However, you can build in your training realistic means of tactical shooting and reloading.

How far can one go?

[chusauli]

I find that there is a lack of audience participation.
Allowing the audience to get involved, perhaps by throwing chairs and assorted beverages or maybe allowing audience member to run in and groin kick someone.
That is much more realistic and in line with the goal of Wing Chun which is, as we all know, beating up homeless people.

:D

LOL! Yes, we should also involve body fluids of various kinds! :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Indeed, I recall at one training session we were dealing with unholstering the gun or drawing the tactical folder under "deres", the "defender" would be bombadred with ounches and kicks from his opponent or by padded sticks as he would try to draw his weapon.
It was an eye opener for many.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL! Yes, we should also involve body fluids of various kinds! :)

Well, it is "sticky hands" after all.

[duende]

Also there exists a phenomena in some where they inherently can not shoot another human being, and always flinch or shoot off target. Like it or not, their subconscious takes over and systematically ruins the targeting of the shot. Often without the shooter even being aware or it.


As for the rules. Thanks for posting the final list. I was not aware of Victor's recommendations of touch strikes to the head being implemented. Therefore allowing presses and other engagements to the head as well which I felt where very necessary.

[HardWork8]

HW8 - there was more input than just Robert Chu and Alan Orr, there was input from other UK Wing Chun organisations.

I was under the impression that this type of tournament was devised by the Chusauli organization.


I think that Terence has got to the core of his issue with chi sau with the "flowery hands" comment.

The way I have been taught chi sao was to look for weakness, gap etc. and then attack/step in and take the space. The degree of contact is determined by the level of the exponents' experience or expertise. We don't wear gloves and body contact can be very hard. Face contact is with open hands.


People who stay in that "multi-move", multi-beats per action chi sau then it would totally break down if they tried to carry it through to fighting.

I was taught to keep things simple.


We should be striving to strip it down to what can realistically work, and the experience of those who fight can inform us as to what works and what does not.

I think that a point is being missed here. Chi sao practice includes other elements that if stripped will result in a loss of essence. What I am talking about and something that is quite often over looked in our times of modern "knuckle head martial arts" is the SENSITIVITY TRAINING.

Sensitivity training is an ongoing process and chi sao happens to be a tool or a method. It is not just fighting training.

In our school however, chis sao practice ultimately leads to sparring as the student gains sufficient conditioning,understanding, experience and SENSITIVITY.
And this sparring is not chi sao anymore, but there will be elements of it present such as bridging and sensitivity/listening in a more realistic and direct scenario.

To conclude, Terence generalizes too much about subjects in which he has at best a limited knowledge. There is a fighting aspect to chi sao and as the tournament demonstrated, this particular aspect is valid.

However Chi sao is a training tool and not just in Wing Chun but other kung fu styles as well, and works in many levels.

[Edmund]

---Good points. But again, as has been pointed out on several occasions, the purpose of the training method is to develop the range at which the system concentrates or excels. Judo Randori develops the standing grapple where Judo excels. Chi Sao develops the contact bridging at which Wing Chun excels. They are developmental training exercises, not ends in themselves. So how is Judo Randori then any more "realistic" and "useful" than Wing Chun Chi Sao?

Well hang on. On the other thread, you were saying that Judo randori was bad for developing fighting skills.

I think both you and Terence are flip flopping all over the place.

Something I expect from Terence (He's gone from "Cross training and Sparring is all bad. Forms and Chi sao = Awesome fighter" to "Forms suck! Sparring only!") but not you Keith!

Could we have this Keith over at the other thread?

[Edmund]

Aikido.

It has randori too. But aikido practitioners don't develop the realistic skills (functional skills) that judoka do. Why? Because they are not facing good opponents that behave realistically, but face people who by training behave in unrealsitic ways, in ways that don't correspond to fighting. So they never develop the skill to deal with people that behave in realsitic ways -- they develop great skill at handling people who behave in their own particular unrealsitc way.

Aikido doesn't really randori. That's a horrible example.
It's not competitive. One guy has a knife and tries to stab the other guy who has to dodge and throw them. It's a complete balls-up.

The other "randori" is when guys rush one guy and he can do an improvised demo throw on whoever gets close first.

To call this the same concept as chi sao is rubbish.

[JPinAZ]

As for the rules. Thanks for posting the final list. I was not aware of Victor's recommendations of touch strikes to the head being implemented. Therefore allowing presses and other engagements to the head as well which I felt where very necessary.

Just light touches to the head is still a tough call IMO. From watching the videos, it seemed at times that people would abandon the upper gate to throw hooks to the body with both hands (little-to-no bridge control). I am guessing that if strikes to the head were allowed, this wouldn't be happening as often. But the tough part is safety.
Obviously, it's a double edged sword. Allow head shots, you won't get the sometimes reckless abandon of the upper gate to throw body shots. But, you risk far more serious injuries.

My input would be once the face contact is made lightly, and the head is moved, the fight should stop, a point awarded and reset. An example would be, if one participant can push someone's head back by getting under the chin, controlling the neck, etc, that could be considered a 'strike' if full energy had been allowed that would halt a lot of the body shots from happening after.

[JPinAZ]

...it seems you got my message. Great! I don't want anything to do with you, HFY, or anything assoicated with HFY. And it seems you feel the same way about me, as I'm a "waste of time." Then stay away from me, leave me alone, and I'll stay away from you people.

I didn't 'get' anything you said... And, I don't generally make 'deals' with bigmouths like you.

But, to try to keep the forums civil, lets do this: If I don't agree with you, or you don't agree with me, let's keep it between us. We can still disagree without attacking each other's lineage (as you have done repeatedly here). All this nonsense of 'you guys', 'cult this', 'ancestor that' you keep babbling about is childish and idiotic. Perfect ways of running from a discussion.

If you'd like, I could start up about your sifu, etc, etc, but we know how that goes and I'm above that. And I'm sure everyone is tired of that type of thing. What does it accomplish anyway? nothing. But if you think it's a good road to travel down, go ahead.

You don't want any problems, keep the discussion between us. You want real problems, keep it up....

fair enough?

[Edmund]

Here's the rules, what would you change?



Not much!

If anything the rule where the "referee starts the round after 3 rolls".

It's a bit of a choreographed start routine of 3 rolls that doesn't make any difference to the match as far as I can see. A lay person in the audience is going to find it weird. The competitors have to cooperate to make it happen.

How about the ref just makes sure they are in a good start position and says "go"?
The competitors then act or react however they like.

[Edmund]

Just light touches to the head is still a tough call IMO. From watching the videos, it seemed at times that people would abandon the upper gate to throw hooks to the body with both hands (little-to-no bridge control).


Well the rules state: You can kick from distance if roll breaks, but you can only punch with bridge contact.

If someone was getting tapped on the head and they responded by hooking to the body, it would already be against the rules.

But if the defender is just hugging their arms tight to their body (which I spotted a bit), it's a form of passivity because it's avoiding bridge contact. It's exploiting the rule but going against the spirit of the comp. The attacker can't go out of their way to maintain contact just so they can punch.




I am guessing that if strikes to the head were allowed, this wouldn't be happening as often. But the tough part is safety.

Obviously, it's a double edged sword. Allow head shots, you won't get the sometimes reckless abandon of the upper gate to throw body shots. But, you risk far more serious injuries.


Yes. It's very double edged. And your head can take a lot less punishment than your body generally can (provided you aren't hit in the groin or something).




My input would be once the face contact is made lightly, and the head is moved, the fight should stop, a point awarded and reset. An example would be, if one participant can push someone's head back by getting under the chin, controlling the neck, etc, that could be considered a 'strike' if full energy had been allowed that would halt a lot of the body shots from happening after.

Perhaps, to add a bit stronger criteria to that idea, if they just pushed the opponent completely away in that instance, the already existing "punching with a bridge" rule would come into effect after that and the opponent would not be able to just throw body shots. (Pushing is allowed)

It would also get a reset and demonstrate a powerful push against a vulnerable target.

So the current rules seem to cover your idea of halting those kyokushin-style body shots (where guys are just smashing each other in the body with their heads exposed). It's whether the competitors understand the rules and what they are allowed to do to counter the body shots.

[KPM]

Well hang on. On the other thread, you were saying that Judo randori was bad for developing fighting skills.

I think both you and Terence are flip flopping all over the place.

Something I expect from Terence (He's gone from "Cross training and Sparring is all bad. Forms and Chi sao = Awesome fighter" to "Forms suck! Sparring only!") but not you Keith!

Could we have this Keith over at the other thread?


---You are reading me wrong. I've also responded on the other thread to try and clear things up. I never said that Judo Randori was bad for developing fighting skills. Terence brought up Judo Randori as an example of a realistic and useful training method as opposed to Wing Chun Chi Sao. I was trying to make the point that there is not that much difference between them. Both are developmental drills that serve the purpose for which they were designed. I haven't "flip flopped" on anything.

[guy b.]

You are incorrect. Judo randori corrresponds to what people do when wrestling wearing jackets. The drill is the activity. Wing chun chi sau corresponds to nothing found in actual fighting..its purpose is to instill certain reactions to pressure but there is a real danger of the drill becomming the activity for practitioners. Judo doesn't suffer from this problem, hence more people learn to do it well.

[CFT]

guy b. is right. Judo randori would translate more to Wing Chun goh/gwoh sau, i.e. free sparring. I would say that chi sau would align more with their throwing practice.


http://www.judoinfo.com/judofaq.htm

Kata: formal exercise.
Uchi komi: repetitive throwing practice.
Randori: free practice.
Shiai: contest

[monji112000]

What I am talking about and something that is quite often over looked in our times of modern "knuckle head martial arts" is the SENSITIVITY TRAINING.

Sensitivity training is an ongoing process and chi sao happens to be a tool or a method. It is not just fighting training.

In our school however, chis sao practice ultimately leads to sparring as the student gains sufficient conditioning,understanding, experience and SENSITIVITY.
And this sparring is not chi sao anymore, but there will be elements of it present such as bridging and sensitivity/listening in a more realistic and direct scenario.

To conclude, Terence generalizes too much about subjects in which he has at best a limited knowledge. There is a fighting aspect to chi sao and as the tournament demonstrated, this particular aspect is valid.

However Chi sao is a training tool and not just in Wing Chun but other kung fu styles as well, and works in many levels.

I'm lost what "knuckle head martial arts" are you talking about? MT ? JJ? wrestling? MMA? LOL
sensitivity is key in all fighting styles... thats one reason why I feel so comfortable in JJ.

JMO it seemed more like sparring matches without head shots.

[KPM]

My exposure to Judo is very limited, so I will concede the point to those with more experience. :) But I stand by my statement that I never called sport tournaments useless or said that Judo Randori did not develop fighting skills. From what you guys are saying, it sounds like Judo Randori may be a useful model to help guide efforts to make Chi Sao more "realistic" and "useful." Or perhaps to better define a stage of training beyond the typical Chi Sao rolling drill that corresponds more to Judo's Randori?

[monji112000]

You are incorrect. Judo randori corrresponds to what people do when wrestling wearing jackets. The drill is the activity. Wing chun chi sau corresponds to nothing found in actual fighting..its purpose is to instill certain reactions to pressure but there is a real danger of the drill becomming the activity for practitioners. Judo doesn't suffer from this problem, hence more people learn to do it well.

its a good drill for feeling, learning to cover, and learning some basic ideas on how a technique could be used. outside of these concepts, its not related to fighting.

its similar to how most BJJ schools do all training starting on your knees. you are losing half of the training. CHi sao starts with a bridge and continues to bridge... your losing over half of the fight. (thats really the purpose of the drill/game to focuse on one aspect).

[sanjuro_ronin]

its a good drill for feeling, learning to cover, and learning some basic ideas on how a technique could be used. outside of these concepts, its not related to fighting.

its similar to how most BJJ schools do all training starting on your knees. you are losing half of the training. CHi sao starts with a bridge and continues to bridge... your losing over half of the fight. (thats really the purpose of the drill/game to focuse on one aspect).

It can be comparable to the "swimming" drills or pummeling.

[HardWork8]

I'm lost what "knuckle head martial arts" are you talking about? MT ? JJ? wrestling? MMA? LOL

More on the lines of MMA that seem to have a totaly "external" approach to fighting.



sensitivity is key in all fighting styles... thats one reason why I feel so comfortable in JJ.

We all know that. However, there is sensitivity and there is sensitivity

Sensitivity is an ongoing process and there are training methods, such as(but not exclusively) chi sao, that help in its development.

Unfortunately nowadays many people do not see the significance of this aspect of chi sao beyond a superficial level. This is the fact that I was attempting to address.

Some arts such as TCMAs (specially their internals) address sensitivity in a much more profound way than other arts.

[monji112000]

More on the lines of MMA that seem to have a totaly "external" approach to fighting.

We all know that. However, there is sensitivity and there is sensitivity

Sensitivity is an ongoing process and there are training methods, such as(but not exclusively) chi sao, that help in its development.

Unfortunately nowadays many people do not see the significance of this aspect of chi sao beyond a superficial level. This is the fact that I was attempting to address.

Some arts such as TCMAs (specially their internals) address sensitivity in a much more profound way than other arts.

what is a external approach? feeling is feeling. If we are talking about feeling someone's force, and then redirecting it.. then its the same concept for chi sao or something else. In fact the same ideas on how to actually do that are used..
How is feeling internal or external? are you talking about "CHI".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wrestling, judo and JJ train sensitivity intensely and they are "external" according to some....
Actually, all grappling systems do.
And MT trains sensitivity too, what is more sensitive than a shin bone to the side of the neck ?

[monji112000]

Wrestling, judo and JJ train sensitivity intensely and they are "external" according to some....
Actually, all grappling systems do.
And MT trains sensitivity too, what is more sensitive than a shin bone to the side of the neck ?
What about clinching in MT? what about feeling and timing when fighting?
Although it may seem like no "sensitivity" is involved , thats 100% not true.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What about clinching in MT? what about feeling and timing when fighting?
Although it may seem like no "sensitivity" is involved , thats 100% not true.

No system of H2H has ZERO sensitivity, they all do, some more so than others, some more obvious to the untrained observer.
Grappling is a given, but all striking arts have sensitivity training, even boxing, heck boxers are even sensitive to their environment ie: the ring.

[SAAMAG]

You are incorrect. Judo randori corrresponds to what people do when wrestling wearing jackets. The drill is the activity. Wing chun chi sau corresponds to nothing found in actual fighting..its purpose is to instill certain reactions to pressure but there is a real danger of the drill becomming the activity for practitioners. Judo doesn't suffer from this problem, hence more people learn to do it well.


You get the gold medal guy!! Short, sweet and absolutely correct.

Now as far as the internal, external, sensitivity stuff that's been said--there is no internal or external, everything in the world has a balance in yin and yang, in and yo, etc. You CANNOT separate the two. No matter how much "internal" training you do or how much "external" training you do.

Breath in, breath out, react to opponents energy. That's it.

Chi sao is a good drill, it's a drill that develops synaptic speed, sensitivity, and overall control through the use of the bridge. It's not fighting, and having a chi sao competition sort of blurs the already blurry lines that most schools have in regards to chi sao. Like HW8 said--they start in chi sao (a drill) and can progress to sparring (not a drill). There is a difference between the two. "Chi sao sparring" is an oxymoron in my opinion.


Edit: Oh and Randori > Chi sao!!! :p

[monji112000]

Edit: Oh and Randori > Chi sao!!! :p

depends on how you look at it. Judo randori is just as useless for fighting.

[KPM]

depends on how you look at it. Judo randori is just as useless for fighting.


Uh Oh! Careful! :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

depends on how you look at it. Judo randori is just as useless for fighting.

Judo ninjas have been dispatched to duct tape your butt cheeks !
:mad:

[SAAMAG]

LOL...I was just kidding with that last remark~ no worries. They're both drills, like KPM is trying to get across. Both of them, in and of themselves are not the same as fighting.

The only thing is that I feel, just as guy said, that one is slightly better in positioning as it resembles the real act, whereas the other does not.

[monji112000]

LOL...I was just kidding with that last remark~ no worries. They're both drills, like KPM is trying to get across. Both of them, in and of themselves are not the same as fighting.

The only thing is that I feel, just as guy said, that one is slightly better in positioning as it resembles the real act, whereas the other does not.
OK I love judo, but how is it resembling the "real" act if we are talking about fighting, not grappling. Fighting includes punching and kick ect.. Judo doesn't train these aspects in fighting. I'm not saying Chi sao does or doesn't.. but to say that randori is better for fighting is like saying my computer is better than my toaster for swimming.
Let me say I love Judo ( since I train a form of Judo ... BJJ). lets just keep it real here.
We all have seen the MMA fights were the guys only knows how to grapple.. and gets his ----- handed to him. Heck one of the best grappler's (JMO) Marcelo Garcia lost his first MMA match becouse his stand up was crap. The guy is going to be amazing in the UFC when he gets his whole game down... but until then... :D

I'm not picking a fight, only pointing out how both "activities" don't accurately prepare to for what you are talking about.

[sanjuro_ronin]

OK I love judo, but how is it resembling the "real" act if we are talking about fighting, not grappling. Fighting includes punching and kick ect.. Judo doesn't train these aspects in fighting. I'm not saying Chi sao does or doesn't.. but to say that randori is better for fighting is like saying my computer is better than my toaster for swimming.
Let me say I love Judo ( since I train a form of Judo ... BJJ). lets just keep it real here.
We all have seen the MMA fights were the guys only knows how to grapple.. and gets his ----- handed to him. Heck one of the best grappler's (JMO) Marcelo Garcia lost his first MMA match becouse his stand up was crap. The guy is going to be amazing in the UFC when he gets his whole game down... but until then... :D

I'm not picking a fight, only pointing out how both "activities" don't accurately prepare to for what you are talking about.

Did you read Randy Coutour's quote in the RedBelt thread?

[monji112000]

Did you read Randy Coutour's quote in the RedBelt thread?I just did thanks. ITs not even about a sport or a "style". the topic is the activity, they are both not meant to be "fighting". Just like a freestyle wrestling match isn't.. ect..

I agree 100% with Randy, he is the man. Great book by the way anyone have it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just did thanks. ITs not even about a sport or a "style". the topic is the activity, they are both not meant to be "fighting". Just like a freestyle wrestling match isn't.. ect..

I agree 100% with Randy, he is the man. Great book by the way anyone have it?

I have his "wrestling for fighting".

[SAAMAG]

OK I love judo, but how is it resembling the "real" act if we are talking about fighting, not grappling. Fighting includes punching and kick ect.. Judo doesn't train these aspects in fighting. I'm not saying Chi sao does or doesn't.. but to say that randori is better for fighting is like saying my computer is better than my toaster for swimming.
Let me say I love Judo ( since I train a form of Judo ... BJJ). lets just keep it real here.
We all have seen the MMA fights were the guys only knows how to grapple.. and gets his ----- handed to him. Heck one of the best grappler's (JMO) Marcelo Garcia lost his first MMA match becouse his stand up was crap. The guy is going to be amazing in the UFC when he gets his whole game down... but until then... :D

I'm not picking a fight, only pointing out how both "activities" don't accurately prepare to for what you are talking about.

Again, no worries. I guess the way I see it, both are good drills. They both help to accentuate and increase skill in a particular area of expertise. However one is distinctly more realistic in application than the other. It's the starting points mostly, and the application of the techniques vs how they would be applied in "real application".

To put it in simple terms, if in a fight someone puts there hands on me, I can immediately apply the judo because the randori is setup in that fashion. There are no unrealistic setups or applications in randori--everything practiced in theory should work. It is simple, without any flowery motions...and all applications are done with force.

Now if in a real fight someone attacks me, and I find myself in trapping range, no one is going to poon sao with me to help me get into the trapping techniques. The starting point is where the flaw is. Notice on the tournement thread, in the vids people HAD to poon sao 3 times...it was forced because no one in their right mind (not even wing chun people) would try that in a real fight. Additionally, as I've stated in other threads, too much hand slapping and hand chasing typically is the result, too many people try to perform 100 hit combos, and that simply is not what wing chun is to me. The best fighters aren't doing fancy crap...they're doing the basics...only they're doing them with mastery.

The basic infrastructure of one better lends itself to real life than the other. Simple.

[t_niehoff]

The basic infrastructure of one better lends itself to real life than the other. Simple.


Exactly right.

[Edmund]

Now if in a real fight someone attacks me, and I find myself in trapping range, no one is going to poon sao with me to help me get into the trapping techniques. The starting point is where the flaw is. Notice on the tournement thread, in the vids people HAD to poon sao 3 times...it was forced because no one in their right mind (not even wing chun people) would try that in a real fight.

That's basically what I suggested could be changed in the tournament rules.

Chi sao doesn't have to start with poon sao.

[SAAMAG]

That's basically what I suggested could be changed in the tournament rules.

Chi sao doesn't have to start with poon sao.

Nope it sure doesn't. I saw a clip of Bruce Lee today (the Tao of JKD video that was narrated by Bruce) when I was looking through some old clips...he did his chi sao for the most part without poon sao. They both hand the hands out, and just entered slowly, looked for the openings, and punched. Looked to be MUCH more easily transposed to actual application.

Man that fukker was fast.

[HardWork8]

what is a external approach? feeling is feeling.

Feeling is feeling, but in the internal approach feeling is more precise.


If we are talking about feeling someone's force, and then redirecting it.. then its the same concept for chi sao or something else. In fact the same ideas on how to actually do that are used..

In chi sao or in TCMA internal approach the "feeling" is different to that of lets say Shotokan karate. Both types of martial arts will use the same idea of "redirecting force", but the internal way is the more precise and less obvious way.




How is feeling internal or external?

An internal way of feeling uses detached/clear mind combined with "extreme relaxation" without floppiness. That is the best way that I can explain it.

The external way is just using your everyday (trained) perception.



are you talking about "CHI".

"Chi" plays its part. Do you actualy teach Wing Chun?

[SAAMAG]

Feeling is feeling, but in the internal approach feeling is more precise.

In chi sao or in TCMA internal approach the "feeling" is different to that of lets say Shotokan karate. Both types of martial arts will use the same idea of "redirecting force", but the internal way is the more precise and less obvious way.

An internal way of feeling uses detached/clear mind combined with "extreme relaxation" without floppiness. That is the best way that I can explain it.

The external way is just using your everyday (trained) perception.

"Chi" plays its part. Do you actualy teach Wing Chun?

Here we go again. The "internal" way utilizes mushin no sen and because the person doesn't think, and focuses on their breathing, they will be "more precise"? In short you're saying "internal way is more precise because internalists clear their mind and concentrate more."

Humans sensory inputs will always be the eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and physical touch. So your internal stylist will use the same "standard" inputs as someone who practices shotokan karate. These ARE your everyday trained perceptions

By the way Monji...you must not understand wing chun because you don't understand the way of the chi.

[please note the sarcasm]

[HardWork8]

Here we go again. The "internal" way utilizes mushin no sen and because the person doesn't think, and focuses on their breathing, they will be "more precise"? In short you're saying "internal way is more precise because internalists clear their mind and concentrate more."

Humans sensory inputs will always be the eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and physical touch. So your internal stylist will use the same "standard" inputs as someone who practices shotokan karate. These ARE your everyday trained perceptions

By the way Monji...you must not understand wing chun because you don't understand the way of the chi.

[please note the sarcasm]

You really need to go "back to school" as far as kung fu training is concerned. Without the internals your kung fu is incomplete-no matter how much TKD and MT techniques you add to your arsenal.

[SAAMAG]

Actually...you need to go TO school for the first time and understand the actual workings of the human body in reality. You spout off that chi and internal is better, but still haven't understood that it's an inherent trait in all physical endeavors. YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL ASPECTS of any martial art. You also haven't understood enough of your chi training to be able to even explain it beyond "it's more advanced" or something to that note.

I'm all about learning new things, but if you're going to make a statement about something, back it up with facts instead of hearsay that you overhear from your sifu. Anytime someone has called you out on your internal training, you haven't been able to elaborate on ANY of it from a technical perspective. Subsequently, we know you are only parroting what your teacher is telling you without truly understanding the subject yourself. Instead, when someone disagrees, you say something like "do you teach wing chun?". It's quite condescending.

[HardWork8]

Actually...you need to go TO school for the first time and understand the actual workings of the human body in reality.

I am already in a school and it is a kung fu school. Actually, I belong to two authentic kung fu schools.


You spout off that chi and internal is better, but still haven't understood that it's an inherent trait in all physical endeavors.

What I actually said is that without the internals your kung fu is incomplete. When I say that I mean (some people here have a very short attention span and a poor ability to understand simple statements):


YOU CANNOT SEPARATE THE INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL ASPECTS of any martial art.

Atta boy! you almost got it now. Except that some martial arts do not have much internals to start with and Shotokan is an example of such a martial art. You can't train kung fu the way you would train Shotokan karate. If you have difficulty in understanding that then I am going to have my hands full trying to explain things to you.


You also haven't understood enough of your chi training to be able to even explain it beyond "it's more advanced" or something to that note.I'm all about learning new things, but if you're going to make a statement about something, back it up with facts instead of hearsay that you overhear from your sifu. Anytime someone has called you out on your internal training, you haven't been able to elaborate on ANY of it from a technical perspective. Subsequently, we know you are only parroting what your teacher is telling you without truly understanding the subject yourself. Instead, when someone disagrees, you say something like "do you teach wing chun?". It's quite condescending.

Yes, I did ask the question,"Do you teach Wing Chun"? And that was a valid question.

What aspect of internal training can I hope to explain to someone, such as yourself, who has difficulty in understanding the fundemental difference between a Shotokan defense and an internal kung fu defense? LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL!

As I said, back to(kung fu) school. This is not an insult but a recommendation.

[SAAMAG]

I am already in a school and it is a kung fu school. Actually, I belong to two authentic kung fu schools.



What I actually said is that without the internals your kung fu is incomplete. When I say that I mean (some people here have a very short attention span and a poor ability to understand simple statements):



Atta boy! you almost got it now. Except that some martial arts do not have much internals to start with and Shotokan is an example of such a martial art. You can't train kung fu the way you would train Shotokan karate. If you have difficulty in understanding that then I am going to have my hands full trying to explain things to you.



Yes, I did ask the question,"Do you teach Wing Chun"? And that was a valid question.

What aspect of internal training can I hope to explain to someone, such as yourself, who has difficulty in understanding the fundemental difference between a Shotokan defense and an internal kung fu defense? LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL!

As I said, back to(kung fu) school. This is not an insult but a recommendation.

Same ol shiet different day, eh?

Keep in mind that I speak in generalities most of the time, so I'm talking about the sum total of your remarks when I said you say "blah" about internal arts superiority over the rest of the arts.

And you didn't discuss shotokan defenses vs. "internal" defenses, you were discussing the superior sensitivity that internal artists have over shotokan stylists--without elaborating on how they would have that (outside of "concentrating harder").

So I'll make this one easy for you...explain in detail why internally boosted sensitivities are better than others, and this time try to use some factual information on how the biomechanics of the human anatomy are affected by the addition of your chi energies. Shouldn't be too hard for an internal expert like yourself who learns about human anatomy and biomechanics from a couple of gung fu instructors with no medical degrees.

Here's your chance to shine...

[Liddel]

I am already in a school and it is a kung fu school. Actually, I belong to two authentic kung fu schools.

To me...this says alot about your mindset.

and its not good LOL

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chi sao doesn't have to start with poon

Sure, but it wouldn't hurt ! :D

[SAAMAG]

Sure, but it wouldn't hurt ! :D

That depends on the type of poon.....


sao.

;)

[HardWork8]

Same ol shiet different day, eh?

He says every morning looking at the mirror.;)


Keep in mind that I speak in generalities most of the time, so I'm talking about the sum total of your remarks when I said you say "blah" about internal arts superiority over the rest of the arts.

In the recent past, you and some of your "modernist" forum buddies have used a lot of "generalities" to misrepresent many of my points.


And you didn't discuss shotokan defenses vs. "internal" defenses,

That is EXACTLY what I was referring to when I used the example of the differences of the internal and the Shotokan way of "redirecting force". If you didn't know then pay careful attention: the act of redirecting force is a DEFENSIVE strategy.

There you see, you learn something new everyday.

You really seem to have a great difficulty in understanding simple concepts, not to mention statements.


you were discussing the superior sensitivity that internal artists have over shotokan stylists--without elaborating on how they would have that (outside of "concentrating harder").

That is because I did. I said that there has to be "softness" without floppiness. Any one who has a basic understanding of the internals would have understood that statement.;) Of course, you didn't.

The internal training and the resultant softness make your blocking (and even striking) "LIVE" as opposed to "DEAD" which is the case with Shotokan and many other karate styles.

If you didn't know, which you don't, then I will tell you that this "liveness" enables one to change from defense to attack and vice versa much easier. One of the puposes of CHI SAO is to develop this ability.



So I'll make this one easy for you...

First things first, I have made things "EASY" for you in the above statements go and read them carefully and see if you understand them before you go on to more "complicated" concepts.

You don't seem to understand simple points.

I mean how could you not see that I was discussing DEFENSES when I talked about REDIRECTING FORCE I mean what the hell have you been training for the past "22 years or so", anyway?


explain in detail why internally boosted sensitivities are better than others, and this time try to use some factual information on how the biomechanics of the human anatomy are affected by the addition of your chi energies.

Can you tell me where I made references to Chi Energy and/or their effect on human bio mechanics when posting to Monji? I will eagerly await your response for that one (I deliberately kept the "chi" aspect out of this firstly because it was not neede and secondly to prevent the usual jokes and derailments).Thank you.



Shouldn't be too hard for an internal expert like yourself

Can you please show me where I refer to myself as an "internal expert"? You can't can you?

The points that I have been making regarding the internals are BASIC knowledge for those who study kung fu using a holistic approach. It is not EXPERT knowledge.

So you are "exposing" yourself more with your condecending and false statments.


who learns about human anatomy and biomechanics from a couple of gung fu instructors with no medical degrees.

The cemeteries are full of people who trusted others who had "medical degrees" and of course there are others who are alive thanks to holders of medical degrees.

The traditional chinese approach is another source of knowledge and it is as valid.

So don't you go around "generalizing" about which source of knowledge is more valid.

My sifus do not need to "cross train" in getting medical degrees. Having trained in real kung fu from authentic sources of knowledge means they don't have to cross train in IRRELEVANT arts or disciplines.


Here's your chance to shine...

As far as I am concerned, shining next to people like you has never been a problem (nor a goal) for me.

[SAAMAG]

bullsh*t, bullsh*t, blah blah blah, and more Bullsh*t.



It must be really hard on you when you get called out over and over again and instead of actually using something valid to back up your statement you instead resort to insults and realignment of your words to try and make yourself seem smarter than you are. The best ones are the ones when you try and put your explanation back on the other guy, using their words as a means of making yourself seem smarter.

All I asked for was detailed elaboration on how you, as an internalist, who by the very nature of that word focalize on the use of chi in your movements, are more skilled at sensing things over a shotokan stylist (for example). You couldn't even do that. Saying it's more live as opposed to dead doesn't mean anything...other than you really can't explain things any further and watched too many Bruce Lee documentaries.

It's sad that there are people like yourself that still proliferate this nonsense. I've been waiting to say this for some time, but I've been prodding you for a while to see how much B.S you'd spew. It has nothing to do with a "my lack of knowledge", or even an honest inquiry into your methods...moreso for my simple amusement on seeing how much of a detachment with real life you have.

Chi is nothing more than a life force, intrinsic energy, air, whatever you want to call it. We all have it, all living things have it. There are no spells or powers you will achieve with it, and there is nothing extra ordinary or mysterious about it. There are no magical feats and no superhuman abilities you will gain from it. You don't gain more powerful strikes from it, or extraordinary speed, or extraordinary SENSITIVITY. On the contrary when someone is claiming some sort of great skill...there will always be a biomechanic reason for it. Staying relaxed is the key to speed, reaction, power, and sensitivity. It's not because of chi, it's because of proper knowledge of how the body works most efficiently and understanding the nuero-muscle connection.

I'm fine with you believing in it and all...that's neither here nor there; but it's highly irresponsible of you to spread fiction to younger people that might be reading these boards who are practicing martial arts to learn some real functional SELF DEFENSE.

And know that if you make a claim of some extra skill or that internal skills are somehow superior to the rest of the martial arts world, you're going to get called out on it. Perhaps one day you'll simply man up and just admit when you're just parroting your teachers' fiction.

[SAAMAG]

On a lighter note...whaddya think about this guys's gung fu? Internal or external?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDBS0NIJ4T8&feature=related

[HardWork8]

It must be really hard on you when you get called out over and over again and instead of actually using something valid to back up yourstatement you instead resort to insults and realignment of your words to try and make yourself seem smarter than you are. The best ones are the ones when you try and put your explanation back on the other guy, using their words as a means of making yourself seem smarter.

All I did was clarify the fact that you don't know what the hell you are talking about. You didn't know that the act of redirecting force was a defensive act, for god's sake.

You have absolutely no idea about the differences between an internal block and an external one such as that used in the Shotokan style of karate.


All I asked for was detailed elaboration on how you, as an internalist, who by the very nature of that word focalize on the use of chi in your movements, are more skilled at sensing things over a shotokan stylist (for example).

I did and here you are referring to it yourself:


You couldn't even do that. Saying it's more live as opposed to dead doesn't mean anything...

It doesn't mean anything to you because you have absolutely no idea about the internals in kung fu.


other than you really can't explain things any further and watched too many Bruce Lee documentaries.

Wrong (yet) again! I don't generally make a habit of watching Bruce Lee documentaries. Actually I didn't know Bruce Lee was an internalist:rolleyes:. You tell me, as right now you are the one who seems to be very familiar with Bruce Lee documentaries.


It's sad that there are people like yourself that still proliferate this nonsense.

What nonsense would that be? That there are internals in kung fu, without which the study of these arts is incomplete?

If that is nonsense then you should take it up with the kung fu masters of past and present and not with me because at the end of the day they are the ones you are arguing with and claiming superiority over.


I've been waiting to say this for some time, but I've been prodding you for a while to see how much B.S you'd spew.

Ironic, because in so doing you have demonstrated your own ignorance of what is involved in practicing authentic kung fu. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.



It has nothing to do with a my lack of knowledge,

So you weren't being an idiot? You were just testing me?LOL,LOL,LOL.


or even an honest inquiry into your methods...

Sometimes for any honest enquiry one must acknowledge that one knows jack sh1t about a given subject that is as your friend Bruce Lee said, "empty the glass". People like you never do that.

So I'll leave you to learn kung fu from kickboxers and others with medical degrees. I'll learn mine from kung fu sifus. Thank you.


moreso for my simple amusement on seeing how much of a detachment with real life you have.

Let me get this straight. You say that you have practiced martial arts including "kung fu" for more than 22 years. You hang around these forums giving your advice on kung fu matters and never going away for long, I presume like a bad case of herpes.

Yet you don't know that the act of redirecting force refers to a defensive action? You don't know the difference between a "live" block or strike and a "dead" one? And their significance when comparing an internal art to an external one such as Shotokan karate? Yet YOU accuse me of detachement from real life?


Chi is nothing more than a life force, intrinsic energy, air, whatever you want to call it. We all have it, all living things have it. There are no spells or powers you will achieve with it, and there is nothing extra ordinary or mysterious about it. There are no magical feats and no superhuman abilities you will gain from it. You don't gain more powerful strikes from it, or extraordinary speed, or extraordinary SENSITIVITY. On the contrary when someone is claiming some sort of great skill...there will always be a biomechanic reason for it. Staying relaxed is the key to speed, reaction, power, and sensitivity. It's not because of chi, it's because of proper knowledge of how the body works most efficiently and understanding the nuero-muscle connection.

Good, you have been putting your foot in it up to now and suddenly you have magically become an expert on "Chi".:rolleyes:

Can you tell me or show me where I said anything about chi and magical powers?
Surprise, surprise, you can't can you?

Everytime you and your knuckle head colleagues are shown to be putting your collective feet in your collective mouths, you turn around and accuse me of making statements that I did not make.

SHOW ME WHERE I MADE STATEMENTS ABOUT CHI AND MAGICAL POWERS.


I'm fine with you believing in it and all...that's neither here nor there; but it's highly irresponsible of you to spread fiction to younger people that might be reading these boards who are practicing martial arts to learn some real functional SELF DEFENSE.

You are saying that I am irresponsible for spreading fiction? What fiction? The one about there being a difference in internal approach to sensitivity to that of the external?
Because, as far as the subject of so called "magical chi powers" is concerned, YOU, Vankuen are the one brought them up in this thread NOT me.


And know that if you make a claim of some extra skill or that internal skills are somehow superior to the rest of the martial arts world,

As for the purposes of this thread and my general discussions with you and your knucklehead colleagues, it is suffice to say that any kung fu training is incomplete without sufficient emphasis into the internals of the individual style being practiced. Read that statement a few times and see if it sinks in.

As far as the superiority of the internals over the externals is concerned then you have to wait until you have at least a basic grasp of the subject before I attempt to put my view forward.


you're going to get called out on it

And I always do get called out on it by kickboxers who think that they practice kung fu. Or by pseudo-kung fu-ists who don't know that they are actually kickboxers.



Perhaps one day you'll simply man up and just admit when you're just parroting your teachers' fiction.

Perhaps one day you will man up and admit that you don't and never have practiced authentic kung fu.

You don't seem to have a basic grasp of the internals, a fact proved by your own posts in this thread, yet you refer to my sifus' teaching as fiction. Your ignorance has no limits.

[HardWork8]

On a lighter note...whaddya think about this guys's gung fu? Internal or external?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDBS0NIJ4T8&feature=related

I think his kung fu is light years ahead of yours.:D

[SAAMAG]

chi is great, chi is good, HW8 has yet to have understood....

One: You're petty attempt at trying to insinuate that I didn't know what you were talking about is getting old. I've been on here discussing wing chun for longer than you've studied anything. Do you honestly think that your defense here is even believeable? Let me guess...you think that saying


but the internal way is the more precise and less obvious way.

An internal way of feeling uses detached/clear mind combined with "extreme relaxation" without floppiness. That is the best way that I can explain it.
makes you sound like you know what you're talking about? Please...then you go on to say the word "floppy".... yep I can see how that would make more sense to you.

Sensitivity is just sensitivity. Redirection of force is just redirection of force. It can be both offensive or defensive...it's the intent of the action that determines that, not the action itself. Any movement can be done either way...you should learn a little more before you try talking down to someone who knows more than you.

If you honestly think that you haven't given the impression that your internal arts make you superior to other arts...I'll find you your little excerpts of where you discuss chi and how your internal methods are better. You think we're all just making up these statements about you? They had to come from somewhere...but now you're going to edit all of your posts...so have at it.

Lastly, yes--if you believe that you actually have some sort of extraordinary skill due solely to your manipulation of your chi...than you ARE living in fantasy land. You like to reiterate that I've been practing for as long as I have, then go on to talk about your HSV before you spout more things about your live and dead blocks...and yet you've still not been able to elaborate on any of it. Let me guess...it's too complex for us because for whatever the reason you think you've got the only "real" gung fu teachers? That in and of itself means you live in a fantasy land.

I've been there, done that. I practice classical gung fu to include wing chun, and guess what? I still practice tai chi and chi gung as well. But I also understand it for what it is, and don't try to proliferate nonsense about it's use in the martial arts. THAT is where you seem to not understand where my problem is with your statements.

There is one thing about my personality that you haven't yet understood....

I'm all about realism and practicality in my approach to martial arts training, whether that be a technique's efficacy in a fighting situation, or the effects and use of chi in the martial arts.

[Edmund]

Can you tell me or show me where I said anything about chi and magical powers?
Surprise, surprise, you can't can you?


Everytime you and your knuckle head colleagues are shown to be putting your collective feet in your collective mouths, you turn around and accuse me of making statements that I did not make.

SHOW ME WHERE I MADE STATEMENTS ABOUT CHI AND MAGICAL POWERS.



Well you said, "The external way is just using your everyday (trained) perception."

This was in contrast to the internal way. You implied that the internal way has perception beyond what everyday people have.

This is essentially claiming magic powers.

Many internal styles claim all sorts of abilities that make their art better than others! (Invulnerability, superstrength, anti-aging, healing powers, etc.)

You act indignant but that really doesn't explain anything or back up what you claim.

[SAAMAG]

Without the internals your kung fu is incomplete...WRONG...
_______

Some arts such as TCMAs (specially their internals) address sensitivity in a much more profound way than other arts. WRONG
________

(Here's a good excerpt of his forum "redirections")
I believe you have just (at least partly) answered your own question about the tendon "loosening" exercise. Go through what you wrote again and you will see.
.....

Again, you have more or less answered your own question on the loosening of "tendons". I won't say anymore as I want to see just how much you actually know about this subject and to be honest I really believe that if you just do a couple of re-reads of what you yourself have written, then you will see at least most of the answer and you will hopefully understand that it has nothing to do with "ninjas".

....

(This was posted by Cj' after a bit...)
to recap: Hardwork used the term "tendon loosening/linking"; he did not qualify it by saying he meant tendon in context of TCM, which undiferentiates tendons, muscles and ligaments as all part of the sinew system; because he did not do this, I called him on it, stating that tendons, as defined by current anatomy knowledge, cannot intrinsically "loosen"; I asked him to provide evidence to the contrary; he did not; he then launches into some sort of guru-like attitude, "guiding" me towards some sort of understanding of what he actually meant by "tendon loosening/linking", even though a) he still misses the point that I was calling him on an incorrect use of the term in regards to the contemporary definition - that's it, nothing else - he never seem to get that, no matter how I tried to explain it; b) I already have a very clear idea of what it involves in terms of my own internal practice (having done a rather comprehensive version of yi jin jing for ~12 years now which has very specific exercises to "loosen" the sinews - of course, there is a "western" physiological explanation for this effect, which I could provide in detail if people were feeling particularly masochistic...); c) I don't really care about his particular version, mainly because he's only been doing it for a few months anyway, so what could he possible have to say about it that would be of interest to me 12 years in;

and his reply: Inspite of your new found civility and with all your "credentials" you still don't know what I mean by tendon linking exercises, nor the tendon loosening ones.

WRONG and FUNNY at the same time.
__________

The internal training and the resultant softness make your blocking (and even striking) "LIVE" as opposed to "DEAD" which is the case with Shotokan and many other karate styles.

If you didn't know, which you don't, then I will tell you that this "liveness" enables one to change from defense to attack and vice versa much easier. One of the puposes of CHI SAO is to develop this ability.

WRONG. It's a wonder how the rest of the wing chun world gains proficiency in chi sao without focusing on their chi?! Again, being soft in application yet firm with intent is an exponent of all martial arts not just "internal" ones. Gaining proficiency in chi sao has nothing to do with internal training...it's training the sense of feel and creating muscle memory. Anyone that knows anything about the human body knows that muscle memory will allow for faster neuro-muscular response and staying relaxed provides a greater fluidity and speed of mechanical movement.



Here's some more internal redirection for you...and some simple chi's wiz.

[SAAMAG]

If any of these forum gods of kung fu went to traditional kung fu school worth its salt, and said that "Internals do not exist in kung fu", "forms are outdated", "kung fu is not functional", they would be pollitely asked to leave (if they are lucky).
^^This one implies that "real" "internal" gung fu can defeat anyone that doesn't believe in their hype...funny...if they're lucky...hahaha!
____

A lot of the internal training can also contribute in keeping a calmer mind during combat by reducing the effects of the adrenaline rush.
Wait...you mean that the development of chi can somehow stop the human glandular system from working properly? Brain chi can keep me calm too? This idea is called mushin in Japanese, and denotes having that sense of no mind. It's not because of internal training as it was used in all warrior arts. An experienced fighter almost always attains this mindset.

____

As far as "internal power" is concerned, it is best to leave it to those who ACTUALLY practice internal martial arts.
I don't think I need to elaborate on this one...

____

In my opinion their (wing chun's) principles are superior and more profound than those of judo and bjj, but you don't have to agree.

Also, Wing Chun principles are not superior to other arts there are other kung fu styles with superior principles to that of Wing Chun .
The fact that you think there is something definitively superior in all forms is just plain stupid. So what style is at the top of this heiarchy??



I'm tired of looking through your posts...

To sum things up...let's look at something Liddell posted to you:



Hardwork8....

The difference is that many here are not married to the ideas you seem to be so confident on.

When you post as though you know what your talking about or like you have experience in what your writing about, when in actual fact you are commenting on things you have little understanding and training in (by your own admission) thats where problems in communication - break down....

When you start to realise there are people here with decades of experience in many different areas of fighting you may start to listen more.....if your smart.



Long story short: You came onto this forum acting like an a$$, and got chewed up by many of the forum members. Most of us, if you recall correctly, were very cordial with you upon first meeting, it's only been over time through your remarks that we've changed the tone. After having looked through some of your post history, you've stirred up more dirt and had to defend yourself more than you contributed anything of worth. Maybe it's time to start over?

[HardWork8]

I see that out of desperation you are inventing quotes on my behalf...LOL!


One: You're petty attempt at trying to insinuate that I didn't know what you were talking about is getting old.

I was not insinuating, I was STATING that you didn't know what I was talking about,based on your own ignorant statements.


I've been on here discussing wing chun for longer than you've studied anything.
Just as there are many people who "teach" Wing Chun, there are also many who "discuss" it.


Do you honestly think that your defense here is even believeable?
As far as I am concerned it is you,Mr Van"I didn't know that redirecting force was a defensive move"Kuen, who is on the defensive, and that is after your idiotic remarks.


Let me guess...
And you will for a long time, as far as real kung fu is concerned.


makes you sound like you know what you're talking about?

Yes, it does and that is because, unlike you, I do know what I am talking about.


Please...then you go on to say the word "floppy".... yep I can see how that would make more sense to you.
The word "floppy" has made more sense to me since I came across you and some of your NUMB-NUT forum colleagues.;)


Sensitivity is just sensitivity.
And you are getting more sensitive by the minute.


Redirection of force is just redirection of force.
Now, that is very profound.:rolleyes:


It can be both offensive or defensive...
One usually redirects force that is coming towards him from an opponent, i.e. DEFENSE What happens afterwards is another story.

PLEASE STOP MISSING THE POINT AS IT IS NOT FUNNY ANYMORE!


it's the intent of the action that determines that, not the action itself.
More "profound" words from a shallow person. I see that your Jingang Quan teacher(DVD?) has been teaching you some interesting concepts that you don't understand.


Any movement can be done either way...
Please be kind enough to explain how redirecting force can be an attacking movement. Of course you can redirect your opponent's attack into him, but again this move is DEFENSIVE first followed by an attack.


you should learn a little more
I do a little every day, but from real kung fu sifus and not pseudo kung fu-ist kickboxers such as yourself.


before you try talking down to someone who knows more than you.
Says the man who practiced many MAs for 22 years and yet doesn't know the difference between an Internal block and a shotokan block/strike....LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL! However, if it is any consolation, you are probably a decen kickboxer.


If you honestly think that you haven't given the impression that your internal arts make you superior to other arts...

My main point is this so ask your "attention span" to pay attention: If you ignore the interal aspects of your kung fu, then your kung fu is incomplete".


I'll find you your little excerpts of where you discuss chi and how your internal methods are better. You think we're all just making up these statements about you? They had to come from somewhere...but now you're going to edit all of your posts...so have at it.
Well please be my guest and do so. By the way, before I forget TCMA consider the internal arts as the higher level kung fu styles.

There now I hope that you will email all these masters in the Far East and give them a piece of your mind. On second thoughts don't do that,as any split of your mind may cause a nuclear explosion.


Lastly, yes--if you believe that you actually have some sort of extraordinary skill due solely to your manipulation of your chi...than you ARE living in fantasy land.
Can you go back into this thread and tell me where I say that I have Chi and magical powers? NO you can't, can you? MR LIAR!


You like to reiterate that I've been practing for as long as I have, then go on to talk about your HSV before you spout more things about your live and dead blocks...
Well it is incredible that after 22 years of practice, you are still LOST regarding the subject of "live" or "dead" blocks and strikes. There must be a lot of MA instructors who owe you a lot of money in overpaid fees..LOL.


and yet you've still not been able to elaborate on any of it.
I wouldn't need to elaborate if you had the slightest notion of what I was talking about.

Let me guess...
Yes, keep guessing as you may get something right and eventually get there.


it's too complex for us
Let me see now.
You don't know the difference between a "live" strike/block and a "dead" one. You do not correlate the redirection of force with a defensive tactic.
You do not differentiate between a general Shotokan approach and an Internal kung fu approach to combat.

Yep, I would say that it IS too complex for you and that is because:


you think you've got the only "real" gung fu teachers?
Thank you, except that there are many real kung fu teachers but then you know the saying,"when the student is ready, the teacher will appear". So maybe after another 22 years of kickboxing practice you will be ready for real kung fu.:D


That in and of itself means you live in a fantasy land.
The fantasy is all yours for having the audacity to come on these forums and advising them on kung fu matters when you have not grasped basic internal principles.


I've been there, done that.
Yes, that is for sure:rolleyes:

I practice classical gung fu to include wing chun,
Nowadays many people "practice" and even "teach" Wing Chun.:rolleyes:


and guess what?
I'll leave the guessing to you because I honestly believe that one of these days, you are actually going guess correctly and hence shock us all.:eek:


I still practice tai chi and chi gung as well.
Nowadays,many people "practice" chi gung and tai chi.:rolleyes:


But I also understand it for what it is, and don't try to proliferate nonsense about it's use in the martial arts.
You mean that you didn't know that Tai Chi has martial applications? Don't worry in another 22 years "or so" you just might.


THAT is where you seem to not understand where my problem is with your statements.
From where I am looking, your "problem" started with your own ignorant statemants.


There is one thing about my personality that you haven't yet understood....
What, that you are dillusional? Oh, I understood that a long time ago.


I'm all about realism and practicality in my approach to martial arts training, whether that be a technique's efficacy in a fighting situation, or the effects and use of chi in the martial arts.
All that this statement says is that you have been exposed to the practicality of the external approach.

However, you not having been exposed to the practicality of the internal approach, does not give you the right to make ignorant comments about their concepts and functionality.

[HardWork8]

Well you said, "The external way is just using your everyday (trained) perception."

Yes that is what I said.


This was in contrast to the internal way. You implied that the internal way has perception beyond what everyday people have.

Yes I did.


This is essentially claiming magic powers.

You are jumping to illogical conclusions. but this doesn't mean that it is magical or supernatural. AllI am referring to is a different approach which result in a more "fine tuned" sensitivity.


Many internal styles claim all sorts of abilities that make their art better than others! (Invulnerability, superstrength, anti-aging, healing powers, etc.)

Super strength is relative. So is invulnerability, as one can train to take hits that normal people cannot stand.
Anti-aging is one of the reasons that many(probably millions) practice chi kung or arts with internal emphasis.
This doesn't mean that they believe that they will be immortals...lol. However, the belief is base on getting healthier and hence hopefully living longer.
Yes, there are people who can heal certain conditions and injuries without the use of heavy drugs and modern technology. That has been going on for centuries.

If you look at the way I have presented the above points then I am sure will not see any "magic" in those claims.


You act indignant but that really doesn't explain anything or back up what you claim.
Have a look at the posts where I mention the "live" and "dead" blocks as well as the difference between the Shotokan and Internal approach to blocking. What I have said is enough for people who have a notion of the internal approach.

If you do not have any notion regarding the subject, then no written explanation is going to convince you anymore than any book on the subject. This means that if you are really interested, then you should try and find a good internal kung fu school and practice the art.

[HardWork8]

I'm tired of looking through your posts...
I know that the concepts are difficult for your simple knucklehead brain to absorb but why don't you take a rest and then re-read my posts. Who knows, maybe something will sink in eventually?


Long story short: You came onto this forum acting like an a$$, and got chewed up by many of the forum members. Most of us, if you recall correctly, were very cordial with you upon first meeting, it's only been over time through your remarks that we've changed the tone. After having looked through some of your post history, you've stirred up more dirt and had to defend yourself more than you contributed anything of worth.

Long story short: I came to this forum and dug up a lot of dirt. Many of you who had happened to be practicing/practiced "kung fu" along with a dozen other martia arts were running around the forums acting like knowledgable kung fu (as well as wrestling, kickboxing, street fighting,BJJ,etc) Gods. I happened to crash some of you down from your high towers of "kung fu" knowledge on your forum butts.

Now, everytime I make a post regarding the internals I get "attacked" by "kung fu" (LOL!) people, who wouldn't know the internals if the internals fell on their thick heads...Actually it is funny for me, if a little sad for the condition of kung fu in general.

If you haven't seen my contributions, then it may just be because my contributions were over your head. As proved in my previous posts in this thread, you Vankuen, do not even have a basic grasp of the internals in kung fu and hence your criticizm aimed at these conepts or my person, are not valid and show you in poor light.



Maybe it's time to start over?
You are right, maybe this time you can start by practicing real kung fu for 22 years. Meaning, kung fu taught by a real sifu who will teach you all the relevant techniques and RANGES and will heavily emphasis the internals.

[Edmund]

You are jumping to illogical conclusions. but this doesn't mean that it is magical or supernatural. AllI am referring to is a different approach which result in a more "fine tuned" sensitivity.


I know.
You have created a contrast by saying "Internal arts are different from external arts because (Insert Reason)".

Now your reason was that they have more sensitivity than an ordinary person.

I'm not saying you claim levitation powers but it's still a claim that should be substantiated.



Super strength is relative. So is invulnerability, as one can train to take hits that normal people cannot stand.
Anti-aging is one of the reasons that many(probably millions) practice chi kung or arts with internal emphasis.
This doesn't mean that they believe that they will be immortals...lol. However, the belief is base on getting healthier and hence hopefully living longer.
Yes, there are people who can heal certain conditions and injuries without the use of heavy drugs and modern technology. That has been going on for centuries.

Of course it has. BUT some people have claimed things that they actually haven't been able to do.

The charlatan and the real thing say exactly the same stuff.
i.e. They both claim powers beyond their explanations. This is a magical claim.

So you should not expect anyone to just go along with all your claims.

Strength IS relative! But it's also measurable.



Have a look at the posts where I mention the "live" and "dead" blocks as well as the difference between the Shotokan and Internal approach to blocking. What I have said is enough for people who have a notion of the internal approach.

If you do not have any notion regarding the subject, then no written explanation is going to convince you anymore than any book on the subject. This means that if you are really interested, then you should try and find a good internal kung fu school and practice the art.


Well I have quite a lot of experience and hence notions on the topic. That doesn't demonstrate that your claims are valid. Just saying "It's profound" doesn't carry a lot of weight.

Didn't you say your WC sifu was doing a London seminar where he was going to demo all this internal sensitivity, Iron Palm, anti-aging, and WC ground fighting?

It should have happened by now right?

Did you go? And what was demonstrated at the seminar exactly?

[Liddel]

Im not sure the relationship between the discovery channel in my country and abroad but recently a fightmasters series was launched with the first ep having Randy the natural - and Bas Reuten come on to do tests etc.

It was very interesting all round. Results of strenght tests indicated they had physical skills far above and beyond 'normal people'.

Interesting given they are MMA stylist which one would assume is NOT an internal affair...

I wonder how an advocate of the internal arts being 'better' than external arts would interprit the show ?

Perhaps it would be as destructive as when i found out santa doesnt exist ! :(

LOL
DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

Im not sure the relationship between the discovery channel in my country and abroad but recently a fightmasters series was launched with the first ep having Randy the natural - and Bas Reuten come on to do tests etc.

It was very interesting all round. Results of strenght tests indicated they had physical skills far above and beyond 'normal people'.

Interesting given they are MMA stylist which one would assume is NOT an internal affair...

I wonder how an advocate of the internal arts being 'better' than external arts would interprit the show ?

Perhaps it would be as destructive as when i found out santa doesnt exist ! :(

LOL
DREW

Bro, the distinction of internal and external only exists in the minds of those that WANT it to.
To paraphrase Chen Xiaowang: You can't have one without the other, its impossible.

[KPM]

Bro, the distinction of internal and external only exists in the minds of those that WANT it to.
To paraphrase Chen Xiaowang: You can't have one without the other, its impossible.

Good quote. Biomechanics is biomechanics. The human body is equipped to move in certain ways and react in certain ways. Everyone has the same equipment. Some have it more highly developed and "fine-tuned" than others, but there is no "secret ingredient" in human physiology that some have and others don't.

[HardWork8]

I know.
You have created a contrast by saying "Internal arts are different from external arts because (Insert Reason)".

Internal arts ARE different from external arts. That is a fact. Pick up a good book on the subject and you will see that they are different in their approach.


Now your reason was that they have more sensitivity than an ordinary person.
Generally speaking they do.


I'm not saying you claim levitation powers but it's still a claim that should be substantiated.
I cannot substantiate it to you by typing words on my computer. You however, can substantiate it for yourself, that is if you are really interested, by actually training in an internal art.



Of course it has. BUT some people have claimed things that they actually haven't been able to do.
Correct, but that happens in all walks of life and it doesn't mean that there are not any differences in the benefits gained from internal as opposed to external training.


The charlatan and the real thing say exactly the same stuff.
i.e. They both claim powers beyond their explanations. This is a magical claim.

You are talking about the fantasy stuff. I am talking about hightened sensitivity and its application to combat.


So you should not expect anyone to just go along with all your claims.
I would just be happy for them to go along with: the major kung fu styles contain External and Internal aspects BY DESIGN and if you practice the external without the internals (or vice versa) then your kung fu is incomplete.
That is not a FANTASY or MAGICAL statement.


Strength IS relative! But it's also measurable.
YOu will notice that I have not referred to people jumping over tall buildings or lifting houses. My main point was and is in the "bold" statement above.

I did also mention the different approaches to redirecting force. Nothing magical.



Well I have quite a lot of experience and hence notions on the topic. That doesn't demonstrate that your claims are valid. Just saying "It's profound" doesn't carry a lot of weight.

Profound is also relative. We have Mr Vankuen with a "22 years or so" of MA experience, who does not understand the concept of a "live" block or strike. That would mean that at least for him this area(as well as the art of opening a can of beans) is profound.


Didn't you say your WC sifu was doing a London seminar where he was going to demo all this internal sensitivity, Iron Palm, anti-aging, and WC ground fighting?

There again you are putting words into my mouth as I don't recall mentioning anti ageing.

The seminar is this Sunday in London. A kung fu brother was supposed to put something on this site. If you are interested then contact realwingchunkuen@yahoo.co.uk for details.

[HardWork8]

Good quote. Biomechanics is biomechanics. The human body is equipped to move in certain ways and react in certain ways. Everyone has the same equipment. Some have it more highly developed and "fine-tuned" than others, but there is no "secret ingredient" in human physiology that some have and others don't.

Here is another good quote and this is what I have been saying for a while,including in the recent post addressed to Edmund:

"The major kung fu styles contain both External and Internal aspects BY DESIGN and if you practice the externals without the internals (or vice versa) then your kung fu is incompete.

Yes, "YOU CANNOT HAVE THE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER". That is what the above quote is saying.

It would have been so much easier if some of the forum members had mastered the enchant art of reading posts properly before even attempting to be masters of the enchant art of pretending to know everything about everything they have happened to cross train in.;)

[CFT]

It would have been so much easier if some of the forum members had mastered the enchant art of reading posts properly before even attempting to be masters of the enchant art of pretending to know everything about everything they have happened to cross train in.;)Now who is claiming magical powers? ;)

[HardWork8]

Now who is claiming magical powers? ;)

It ain't me.:)

[CFT]

So you're not an enchanter then ancient one?

[HardWork8]

So you're not an enchanter then ancient one?

Well, I am an enchanter with the ladies, but that is another type of an "internal" approach that can get even more profound and actually does have some anti-aging benefits.....lol;)

[SAAMAG]

I see that out of desperation you are inventing quotes on my behalf...LOL!Nope. I pulled those right from your post history friend.



I was not insinuating, I was STATING that you didn't know what I was talking about,based on your own ignorant statements.

State all you want...just like your chi theories...doesn't make them true does it?



One usually redirects force that is coming towards him from an opponent, i.e. DEFENSE What happens afterwards is another story.
You need to expand your mind here...because you're wrong again...see below for an explanation.



More "profound" words from a shallow person. I see that your Jingang Quan teacher(DVD?) has been teaching you some interesting concepts that you don't understand.
My jingang quan sifu has no vids unfortunately. Since he's moved that would have been a nice record though. Yes...he does have some realistic internal concepts. Much more realistic than other internalists.



Please be kind enough to explain how redirecting force can be an attacking movement. Of course you can redirect your opponent's attack into him, but again this move is DEFENSIVE first followed by an attack.
"If you re-read your first posts you'll see the answer there. I'm sure that if you just re-read them you will see." HAHAHAH! I'm just kidding--I'm not going to pull a HW8 redirection on you.

I'll use something simple for you. Wing Chun's bong sao. Many of the lineages have slightly different ways they perform bong sao, some are more rigid, some are more flowing, some are more soft, some use a cutting motion, some roll. Some people step in, some people step to the side, some people rotate on their axis. The idea is simple.

If you take an incoming punch and it crosses the bridge on your outside gate, you will more than likely either punch or use bong sao. When using bong sao on the defensive, one will more than likely roll it into place and probably turn on the axis a little bit to redirect the kinetic energy. To use it more offensively, you might use bong sao in a cutting motion while moving forward into the strike to upset the opponents structure and gain offensive momentum while simultaneously defending.

Another example using hard stylist' blocks, each block is also a strike. So when one is performing a side block with the forearm, it can be done with just enough force to redirect, or it can be done with enough force to break the arm. One is defensive--the other offensive.

See? Simple.



Says the man who practiced many MAs for 22 years and yet doesn't know the difference between an Internal block and a shotokan block/strike....LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL! However, if it is any consolation, you are probably a decent kickboxer.

I am a decent thai boxer, and a decent gung fu man, and a decent wing chun man. So now that I've answered your question...try answering mine about your live vs dead blocks...let's here it Mr. Intelligence.



My main point is this so ask your "attention span" to pay attention: If you ignore the interal aspects of your kung fu, then your kung fu is incomplete".

And my main rebuttal was that you cannot separate the two...even in an "external style". So if we agree that one cannot train one without the other, how is it that there are all these people that seem to do just that according to you?



Can you go back into this thread and tell me where I say that I have Chi and magical powers? NO you can't, can you? MR LIAR!

I already have...don't make me find more dirt...the message of the sentences you write don't have to say the actual words "magical powers" or "chi blast" for people to understand the message.



I wouldn't need to elaborate if you had the slightest notion of what I was talking about.
No one knows what the heck you're talking about...but just to make sure...let's go over to the qigong and internal forums and make a post that talks about live and dead blocks to see what they say on it? Maybe they can answer the question that you seem to be avoiding?



Thank you, except that there are many real kung fu teachers but then you know the saying,"when the student is ready, the teacher will appear". So maybe after another 22 years of kickboxing practice you will be ready for real kung fu.:D

You should rephrase that to "when the chump is ready the con-artist appears".



The fantasy is all yours for having the audacity to come on these forums and advising them on kung fu matters when you have not grasped basic internal principles.
The only thing I've advised of recent...is for you to stop spouting off magical B.S. as fact.



However, you not having been exposed to the practicality of the internal approach, does not give you the right to make ignorant comments about their concepts and functionality.
Then tell me what's practical about believing that chi cultivation wil give you a higher level of sensitivity and higher levels of strength (in addition to chin ups)? Wait...I don't know why I ask you questions when all you do is answer the ones that you can make snappy little attempts at insults.

[SAAMAG]

Gods. I happened to crash some of you down from your high towers of "kung fu" knowledge on your forum butts.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! This one made me laugh. So you think you've "outed" us fake gung fu guys that happen to practice more than one art and train to actually fight? That's grand.



Now, everytime I make a post regarding the internals I get "attacked" by "kung fu" (LOL!) people, who wouldn't know the internals if the internals fell on their thick heads...Actually it is funny for me, if a little sad for the condition of kung fu in general.
It's not what you say...it's how you say it that gets you attacked.



you Vankuen, do not even have a basic grasp of the internals in kung fu and hence your criticizm aimed at these conepts or my person, are not valid and show you in poor light.
Wel...perhaps you're right in one respect, I'm not sure of the crap you're being taught or the secret lingo your teacher is telling you. So from that respect I don't know what the heck you're talking about. But when you're asked to elaborate BY ANYONE on the forum....your magical powers of redirection come into play nicely.



You are right, maybe this time you can start by practicing real kung fu for 22 years. Meaning, kung fu taught by a real sifu who will teach you all the relevant techniques and RANGES and will heavily emphasis the internals.
I guess you're not going to heed the advice huh? I've had plenty of sifu's that focused on internals...they all believed in real world application of the martial arts--through focused coordination of all the aspects of the human body. The internal method was simply part of the core and is NOT the source of extraordinary skills. Rather, it is the combination of all of it that will give the highest skill.

[HardWork8]

Im not sure the relationship between the discovery channel in my country and abroad but recently a fightmasters series was launched with the first ep having Randy the natural - and Bas Reuten come on to do tests etc.

It was very interesting all round. Results of strenght tests indicated they had physical skills far above and beyond 'normal people'.

Interesting given they are MMA stylist which one would assume is NOT an internal affair...

I know basket ball players who who have physical skills above "normal people". Did you have to watch a documentary to know that any type of intense training will give you attributes above that of "normal people"?

You have missed the point.


I wonder how an advocate of the internal arts being 'better' than external arts would interprit the show ?

The same way as an advocate of the external arts, I suppose.


Perhaps it would be as destructive as when i found out santa doesnt exist ! :(

You mean you actually believed that Santa existed and found out that he didn't after you started your "kickboxing" training? Now, that sounds very profound..:D

LOL

[Liddel]

Bro, the distinction of internal and external only exists in the minds of those that WANT it to.
To paraphrase Chen Xiaowang: You can't have one without the other, its impossible.

I agree totally, its just when debating a subject i find the best way get my point across is to raise questions from the oppositions POV :rolleyes:


I know basket ball players who who have physical skills above "normal people". Did you have to watch a documentary to know that any type of intense training will give you attributes above that of "normal people"?
You have missed the point.

First off the Doco was based on fighting not basketball, it has what you would consider(based on your posts) an external approach to fighting (MMA) and it shows the results of strength and sensitivity in relation to fighting from this external POV...so i found it quite pertinent to this discussion.

9 odd pages of you arguing with several posters who called you out and who prob have more experience than you and i put together (i have 11years in VT) and you think i missed the point ?

No, thats what this is......


You mean you actually believed that Santa existed and found out that he didn't after you started your "kickboxing" training? Now, that sounds very profound..

Your just clutching at straws bruva :o
Cheers for the smile you just put on my face. :D

DREW

[Edmund]

Internal arts ARE different from external arts. That is a fact. Pick up a good book on the subject and you will see that they are different in their approach.


Yeah they are however your definition of an internal art does not agree with the definitions as described in the good books.

Softness of blocks and redirections is not part of the definition. The internal style of Xingyi is relatively hard with its blocks.

This is one reason why I and others have a problem with your points.

[HardWork8]

:rolleyes:
Nope. I pulled those right from your post history

If you pulled "those" out of my post history then please next time use the actual posts and not your mixed up perception of my posts.


friend.
:rolleyes:


State all you want...just like your chi theories...doesn't make them true does it?
You seem to be very obsessed with "Chi". Too many "Bruce Lee documentaries" perhaps?



You need to expand your mind here...because you're wrong again...
After all of your idiotic comments regarding the redirection of force and your ignorance of "live" as opposed to "dead" blocks/strikes, you say I am the one who is wrong? You are a funny guy,I'll give you that.


see below for an explanation.
I've been looking "below" for days, as far as this thread is concerned.


My jingang quan sifu has no vids unfortunately.
But you still have your Bruce Lee (internal) documentaries to keep you busy..LOL.


Since he's moved that would have been a nice record though. Yes...he does have some realistic internal concepts. Much more realistic than other internalists.
Oh really? Does he wear boxing gloves and bounces around sparring 24 hours a day?



"If you re-read your first posts you'll see the answer there. I'm sure that if you just re-read them you will see." HAHAHAH! I'm just kidding--I'm not going to pull a HW8 redirection on you.
Of course not. To do a HW8 redirection you need to first achieve at least a basic knowledge of the internals.


I'll use something simple for you.
Simpler than, what was it,"redirection of force is just redirection of force" and "sensitivity is just sensitivity"...LOL!


Wing Chun's bong sao. Many of the lineages have slightly different ways they perform bong sao, some are more rigid, some are more flowing, some are more soft, some use a cutting motion, some roll. Some people step in, some people step to the side, some people rotate on their axis. The idea is simple.
Well, lucky for you...lol!


If you take an incoming punch and it crosses the bridge on your outside gate, you will more than likely either punch or use bong sao. When using bong sao on the defensive, one will more than likely roll it into place and probably turn on the axis a little bit to redirect the kinetic energy. To use it more offensively, you might use bong sao in a cutting motion while moving forward into the strike to upset the opponents structure and gain offensive momentum while simultaneously defending

Why don't you understand that you are still DEFENDING. The catalyst is the opponent's attack. You then meet that attack(force) and redirect it. You are DEFENDING. Christ almighty!I am beginning to miss Unkokusai.


Another example using hard stylist' blocks, each block is also a strike. So when one is performing a side block with the forearm, it can be done with just enough force to redirect, or it can be done with enough force to break the arm. One is defensive--the other offensive.

You are still MEETING AN ATTACK (INCOMING FORCE FROM YOUR OPPONENT) so you are primarily DEFENDING. REad one of my previous posts on the subject when I state,"One usually redirects force that is coming towards him from an opponent, i.e.DEFENSE,what happens afterwards is another story."


See? Simple.

Correction,it is SIMPLE MINDED.


I am a decent thai boxer,
I knew that there would be something to show after 22 years of training,and I am happy for you.:)


and a decent gung fu man, and a decent wing chun man.
:rolleyes:


So now that I've answered your question...
Oh yes, you really have answered my question with those words of wisdom.:rolleyes:


try answering mine about your live vs dead blocks...let's here it Mr. Intelligence.
It is too late for compliments. I am really upset with you and your forum kickboxer buddies who make me repeat simple statements time after time. And how do you thank me? By continuing to say redirecting does not always have a defensive purpose.



And my main rebuttal was that you cannot separate the two...even in an "external style". So if we agree that one cannot train one without the other, how is it that there are all these people that seem to do just that according to you?
Of course you can train one without the other but what you get is INCOMPLETE. Like I said before and please don't make me repeat the whole thing again, if you ignore the internals your kung fu is INCOMPLETE.


I already have...don't make me find more dirt...
No you haven't and you are a LIAR!


the message of the sentences you write don't have to say the actual words "magical powers" or "chi blast" for people to understand the message.
The problem with you is not my message,but the way your warped brain takes in the message.

I have stated time after time that I am not talking about magical chi powers. To you and some other knuckle heads it may sound like magic, as mirrors did to indigenous peoples of conquered colonies, but they are only concepts that you don't understand.



No one knows what the heck you're talking about...
That says more about the state of kung fu nowadays, then it does about me.


but just to make sure...let's go over to the qigong and internal forums and make a post that talks about live and dead blocks to see what they say on it?
Well it seems that you have already. Well good luck with that. I doubt many people will know anything about it. Some may even know but not want to discuss it just to avoid being referred to as "chi blasters" or "magicians" and other idiotic remarks so commonly made by the forums pseudo-kung fu kickboxers.


Maybe they can answer the question that you seem to be avoiding?
Why don't you ask one of your "kung fu" sifus who have taught you so much?Lol!



You should rephrase that to "when the chump is ready the con-artist appears".
So far it seems that you are the one who has been conned, because after having practiced MAs for 22 years, you hadn't(and still haven't, despite my help) grasped the idea that redirecting force refers primarily to a defensive action. Furthermore, you are not capable of differentiating between an internal block and an external one as used in the art of Shotokan karate.



The only thing I've advised of recent...is for you to stop spouting off magical B.S. as fact.
Can you please show me where I make references to "magic"? You seem to be a very simple "if my little brain doesn't understand the concepts then it must be magical B.S." sort of a fellow.

Or perhaps you have been hit on the head a lot during your years of functional/practical/contact/realistic MA training.



Then tell me what's practical about believing that chi cultivation wil give you a higher level of sensitivity and higher levels of strength (in addition to chin ups)?

Oh no, that dreaded "Chi" again. You ARE obsessed with Chi aren't you?
And can you tell me where I say that chin-ups will give you sensitivity? Oh, you can't? Then nothing new there either.:rolleyes:


Wait...I don't know why I ask you questions when all you do is answer the ones that you can make snappy little attempts at insults.
And I don't know why you ask questions on concepts that are beyond your intellectual reach.

So now repeat after me, "redirection of force is primarily a defensive action".

When you grasp the wisdom behind that statement you will be ready for other "revelations" my son.Lol!

[HardWork8]

BWHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!
Listen, before you go completely crazy you should try some internal meditation.;)


This one made me laugh.
I am always happy to put a ray of sunshine in that miserable pompous life of yours.


So you think you've "outed" us fake gung fu guys that happen to practice more than one art
Not just fake but also mediocre.


and train to actually fight?
I have got news for you, all authentic schools of kung fu will teach you to fight. Obviously you didn't know that because you have never trained in an authentic kung fu school or otherwise you wouldn't have implied that one has to train in OTHER arts to "actually fight".


That's grand.
Yes a grand shame. I mean 22 years is a long time.


It's not what you say...it's how you say it that gets you attacked.
You mean I am too blunt? Well thank god for that. Inspite of being blunt and direct with you people you have still made me type and re-type the same relatively simple statements, time after time. Just imagine if I wasn't direct and blunt.:eek:


Wel...perhaps you're right in one respect,
As I said before, too late for compliments. My fingers are aching from retyping the same points time after time.


I'm not sure of the crap you're being taught or the secret lingo your teacher is telling you.
I honestly believe that you are not sure of anything when it comes to the internal aspects of kung fu.


So from that respect I don't know what the heck you're talking about.
From that and many respects, "Hey guys, be careful Vankuen is coming towards you from behind and he is going to attack you using a 'force redirecting' technique"1....LOL!....Do you now understand my point about how redirection of force cannot be a primary attacking move? No? Then don't worry because the next 22 years will come and go just like that! Lol.


But when you're asked to elaborate BY ANYONE on the forum....your magical powers of redirection come into play nicely.
When one looks at the public profiles of some of the forum members, not too mention their big mouths, then one assumes that they will have at least a basic grasp of some, in this case, internal concepts.

However, being as pompous as some you are you still want me to elaborate over the more complicated stuff when you don't even differentiate between the Internal and external approach on a basic level, such as blocking, for gods sake.


I guess you're not going to heed the advice huh?
Vankuen, don't tell me that you are going to advise me about kung fu now:eek:


I've had plenty of sifu's that focused on internals...they all believed in real world application of the martial arts--through focused coordination of all the aspects of the human body.
That sounds good. However, your sifus somehow failed to instil a basic grasp of the internal approach to attack and defense and their differences in contrast to lets say an external art such as, let me think, oh yes, Shotokan karate.

They also failed to teach you simple concepts such as that of redirecting force being primarily a defensive action.
As I said before there must be a lot of MA instructors owing you a lot of money on overpaid fees.LOL.LOL!


The internal method was simply part of the core and is NOT the source of extraordinary skills.
Skills are relative. There are however internal skills that you are not aware of. Look into the "live" blocking and striking. If you come across someone who has perfected those skills then even you will find them "extraordinary"(when you wake up in the hospital the next day, that is);).


Rather, it is the combination of all of it that will give the highest skill.
Christ! talk about general statements.:rolleyes:

[HardWork8]

Yeah they are however your definition of an internal art does not agree with the definitions as described in the good books.
Then read them more carefully than you read my posts.;)


Softness of blocks and redirections is not part of the definition. The internal style of Xingyi is relatively hard with its blocks.
The blocks can be "hard" or "soft" but most of the principles will be the same. However, there is the softness inside, described as "iron hands/arms with cotton wool inside" or "cotton wool hands/arms with iron inside",the opposite.

These concepts both include "softness" within their principles but they manifest in different ways (I think I heard Vankuen's head explode just about now:eek:, I hope that it was only my imagination,LOL!).


This is one reason why I and others have a problem with your points.
Another reason may be that you do not have a valid point of reference.;)
Again it is the good old"I haven't heard of this/don't know it, ah then it must be BS or Magic".LOL!

[SAAMAG]

If you pulled "those" out of my post history then please next time use the actual posts and not your mixed up perception of my posts.

Um...anyone can look into your history and see that those posts are yours and not doctored.



Oh really? Does he wear boxing gloves and bounces around sparring 24 hours a day?
You can ask him, he's RFM on this site. Doesn't post much...and he's a christian man so I'd suggest you keep a proper tone in your posts to him.



Of course not. To do a HW8 redirection you need to first achieve at least a basic knowledge of the internals.
No, I'd need a lack of knowledge...and a drawn out facade that I indeed do know what I'm talking about without having to actually discuss anything of worth.



Why don't you understand that you are still DEFENDING. The catalyst is the opponent's attack. You then meet that attack(force) and redirect it. You are DEFENDING. Christ almighty!I am beginning to miss Unkokusai.
Are you honestly that thick headed? You were wrong on that regard, I've corrected you. You're not going to talk your way out of that one. Sorry...



You are still MEETING AN ATTACK (INCOMING FORCE FROM YOUR OPPONENT) so you are primarily DEFENDING. REad one of my previous posts on the subject when I state,"One usually redirects force that is coming towards him from an opponent, i.e.DEFENSE,what happens afterwards is another story."

OOOOOH! I see you've added the word "primarily" into your description...nice one. Not quite backpeddling but close enough. I don't have to re-read any of your posts, nor does anyone else because we all know what you said. You were still incorrect about the nature of blocking. To be honest this whole thing started with you discussing how much more sensitive internalists are in general...THAT is what I questioned. If you hadn't tried to imply that I somehow didn't know that redirection was defensive...you wouldn't be in this predicament would you? But now you are...and you're wrong...again.



It is too late for compliments. I am really upset with you and your forum kickboxer buddies who make me repeat simple statements time after time. And how do you thank me? By continuing to say redirecting does not always have a defensive purpose.
So anyone that doesn't agree with you is a kickboxer? You'll find that many of them don't even take any sort of kickboxing. One of them in particular is so far beyond you in skill and experience in wing chun it's not even funny. And you are questioning him as well.



Of course you can train one without the other but what you get is INCOMPLETE. Like I said before and please don't make me repeat the whole thing again, if you ignore the internals your kung fu is INCOMPLETE.
No....you really can't. It's been said time and again....you cannot have one without the other. YOU can focalize on one or the other, or what you THINK may be one or the other, but that's mostly all in your mind.



No you haven't and you are a LIAR!

I haven't lied once.



The problem with you is not my message,but the way your warped brain takes in the message.
Mine and everyone else's on here. Including many high ranking wing chun instructors.



I have stated time after time that I am not talking about magical chi powers. To you and some other knuckle heads it may sound like magic, as mirrors did to indigenous peoples of conquered colonies, but they are only concepts that you don't understand.
Then why don't you share those concepts? That's all anyone is asking of you. If you're going to make a statement...the burdon of proof is on you to elaborate or prove it somehow. You haven't been able to fully elaborate on ANYTHING in ANY THREAD at ANYTIME. Your excuse? "You don't understand..." or "You answered it already in your reply" or "you're retarded".



Well it seems that you have already. Well good luck with that. I doubt many people will know anything about it. Some may even know but not want to discuss it just to avoid being referred to as "chi blasters" or "magicians" and other idiotic remarks so commonly made by the forums pseudo-kung fu kickboxers.

So far...you're right. They so far haven't heard about it really. But that says more about you than it does them. Wait...is that because YOU have the only REAL kung fu SIFU? :rolleyes:

Whenever someone is questioned...it's the law of large numbers that takes precedence. The people in that forum study arts that are highly focused on internals...even moreso than YOUR wing chun. I'd take their word over yours anyday. They can actually elaborate on their statements there.



Why don't you ask one of your "kung fu" sifus who have taught you so much?Lol!

I probably will...when I next speak to them. It makes no difference in all reality to be honest, I mainly created that thread to get a concensus from a variety of internal practicioners. Universal truths tend to come out moreso with larger demographic samples.



So far it seems that you are the one who has been conned, because after having practiced MAs for 22 years, you hadn't(and still haven't, despite my help) grasped the idea that redirecting force refers primarily to a defensive action. Furthermore, you are not capable of differentiating between an internal block and an external one as used in the art of Shotokan karate.
lol...you're a moron. I said YOU weren't talking about blocks with a simple statement of "there is sensitivity and there is sensitivity" and "internal sensitivity is more precise". Then you try to get one up on me by saying "oohh ohhh you didn't know redirection was a defense!! ooh ohh". You can barely redirect intellectual attacks let alone physical ones.



Can you please show me where I make references to "magic"? You seem to be a very simple "if my little brain doesn't understand the concepts then it must be magical B.S." sort of a fellow.
Nope...I'm a "if it's fake and or damaging to the martial arts world than don't spread it" sort of one. I'm fine with internal arts...in fact I practiced a couple of them for some time. But I'm not fine with people passing B.S. as truths. Like you say...the state of martial arts is not great. But modern day martial artists are making it harder for B.S. to be proliferated nowadays.



Or perhaps you have been hit on the head a lot during your years of functional/practical/contact/realistic MA training.

If you haven't been hit, than you're not training properly.



And I don't know why you ask questions on concepts that are beyond your intellectual reach.
I don't know why you make statements that you cannot backup.



So now repeat after me, "redirection of force is primarily a defensive action".

There's that word primarily again. I'm curious...did you add that in there to try and save face after I corrected you and then was able to elaborate on that?

______________________________

The funny thing about all of this internal crap you've been talking about--is that internal arts only describe those that were created inside China, and external arts were those created outside of China (Da mo). You failed to state that at any time. I wanted to wait a while before mentioning the REAL difference between internal / external. But since I knew what you were getting at with your perceived version of it, I decided to continue the use the terms to describe "softer" movements vs "harder" movements that you seemed to connotate the terms with.

In regards to your connotation of internal vs external; from an "energy" standpoint--the internal arts can be soft, flowing, and redirecting, but also very firm OR hard in their application. Same thing goes for the external arts. The cultivation of intrinsic energy is meant to strengthen the organs and increase blood flow, and increase mental concentration (which you mentioned round about with the "no mind" concept); and it is done inherently in both internal or external arts (of both definitions) regardless of whether you mentally focalize on it or not.

So after all this...I started thinking, that beyond all of your stubborn egotistical efforts to avoid saying that you're wrong about something...that perhaps this just might be a misunderstanding. So to clarify...perhaps you can simply elaborate on the things that have been asked of you in regards to your statements? Then no one will question...they may disagree...but does that really matter? Your lack of ability to elaborate on anything is the problem here.

Here's the basic archetype for your threads:

1. Thread is created
2. HW8 says something relating to internal stylists having some sort of extraordinary ability
3. HW8 gets called out on it to elaborate or backup his statement
4. HW8 gets upset and starts calling people names when he can't actually elaborate
5. HW8 gets owned by people who know more about the subject than he does
6. HW8 doesn't know when to let go and takes over the thread...and it goes on forever in a tangent that no longer has anything to do with the original post.

You really need to break the cycle man....really.

[Liddel]

A large number of my VT blocking actions could be considered attacks IMO.

My VT has an inherent sharpness which stems from what we call muli point touch and inch power. Its essentially rotating limbs and using the hinge mechanisims of your joints.

We learn it in forms up.

If you've ever felt this type of force youll know often the attacker can get more hurt (if you block it correctly) than you the reciever of an attack....

Is this what your getting at HW8 in terms of internal energy ?
if not can you elaborate in a VT sence ?

Lets just agree to disagree or further the discussion cause this tip for tat posting is getting f k n boring now :cool:

DREW

[sanjuro_ronin]

Vankuen, dude, just stop man, you are wasting valuable finger typing chi on that individual.
He's a troll, forget it, ignore button is your friend.
:D

[SAAMAG]

I wasn't planning on responding to him after that post Sanjuro. Ignore list updated.

Oh but for those that are wondering about the live vs dead limbs, semantics aside, it's just a very mainstream idea used in almost all forms of gung fu, it was actually explained over in the internal style forums.

[HardWork8]

I wasn't planning on responding to him after that post Sanjuro. Ignore list updated.

Oh but for those that are wondering about the live vs dead limbs, semantics aside, it's just a very mainstream idea used in almost all forms of gung fu, it was actually explained over in the internal style forums.

Yes, yet you failed to "guess" it during all the time you were arguing with me. Of course, you knew what "liveness" referred to all along and you were only testing me....LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,LOL,.


Saying that it is(the block) more live as opposed to dead doesn't mean anything.

:confused:LOL,LOL,LOL.:rolleyes:

I see that it is a very "mainstream idea".
None of you knew what I was talking about. You, Vankuen had to go to the "Internals" Forum and even there only one person answered your question and another who seemed to know about the subject.

Your response to their resonse was,"Oh yes I knew what you were talking about all along but just under a different definition"..LOL! or were you just "testing" my knowledge?LOL,LOL,LOL.

Of course, you were hoping that nobody would answer the question so that you could come out and say, see all this "liveness" stuff is magical chi BS.

I suppose the perfect scenario for you would have been for some "internalist" to come out and "debunk" the concepts of Liveness in blocking and striking. Too bad for you. I wish you better luck next time.:D

[HardWork8]

A large number of my VT blocking actions could be considered attacks IMO.
You are right! but again you still need to be attacked to use your blocking to "attack". The point I was trying to get across to Vankuen(and Sanjuro, it seems without my knowldedge:rolleyes:).


My VT has an inherent sharpness which stems from what we call muli point touch and inch power. Its essentially rotating limbs and using the hinge mechanisims of your joints.
Your VT sounds interesting.:)


If you've ever felt this type of force youll know often the attacker can get more hurt (if you block it correctly) than you the reciever of an attack....
We step in a "wave" and jam the attack in a spiral and weeping manner.


Is this what your getting at HW8 in terms of internal energy ?
Real internal energy will come from various chi kung exercises which will teach correct breathing and their relationship to striking. Chi kung practice will also help create a relaxed state of mind and body. This is needed for internal applications.

I am sure that you will agree that the defensive move that you just described will only worked properly if you have at least a certain degree of relaxation(without floppiness) and correct breathing. If you are "too" tense you can be bounced back if your opponent is "live" himself. This means he will bounce back the force that you are redirecting at him.

This state of relaxedness can be trained to the "extreme" and that is what my sifu(s) are doing even today. This means there is no end as such.

Your scenario using purely an external approach would mean a clash of strengh (which would not be Wing Chun anymore), where as in the internals the relevance is within the sensitivity/liveness of the adversaries (or at least one of them).

To answer your question, yes the internals that I talk about are concepts that are relevant to what you just described. My point is that you can take it deeper, much much deeper. Chi sao and chi sao type of training will open the door to train this type of sensitivity, but there are other exercises as well. It is a lifetime study.

Sorry if it sounds jumbled by if you have more questions just ask.


Lets just agree to disagree or further the discussion cause this tip for tat posting is getting f k n boring now :cool:

I don't know about that. I believe that this discussion has turned out suprisingly enlightening for Vankuen, even if he doesn't admit it himself;).