the problem with forms

[golden arhat]

basically
i have a theory as to why forms are useless


basically i see it as

if your shadow boxing your thinking of where your placing hits on an opponent and moving according to that, your free flowing and fighting an imaginary opponent this enables you to react accordingly should it happen in real life


now with forms the way i learnt them tho i would try and think where they would go
the emphasis was on it looking right, with the right move coming after the previous one etc

now if your only thinking about what to put after another move arent you basically a dancer? your mind is so preoccupied on getting the form right that you miss out on what the techniques you are practising actually do.


a punch is a punch but who punches with the intention of the one coming after it looking right ? or in the correct order ?



thoughts ?

[SifuAbel]

basically
i have a theory as to why forms are useless


wow..........

its so............

simplistic.............

[Yao Sing]

Well, first off it's not that you have "a theory as to why forms are useless" but rather an opinion that forms are useless.

You then go on to explain the problem you have encountered with forms training. Don't assume everyone else has the same problem.

Now, the reason you have that problem with forms training is because you haven't learned the forms let alone master them. It sounds to me like you barely learned the sequence and decided that was all there was to it and gave up.

That seems to be the pattern with the anti-forms people, at least that's my opinion. They never get very far past the sequence memorization. Not everyone learns the same way and for some this way of learning doesn't work for them (whether it's poor instruction or they just aren't geared towards this style of learning).

If you're still concentrating on what move comes next then you have quite a way to go before acquiring any benefits from the practice.

That's a very typical response. We've all seen the student who thinks he's done when he's shown the last move of the set and can get through it from beginning to end. What he doesn't realize is that's just the beginning of learning the form.

[ngokfei]

the purpose of forms is "Mis-understood" and "under utilized".

I also see them as a great way to stay limber and toned into one's golden years.

Rarely do you find Boxers, Kickboxers, etc. who stay in shape in their 60's and up.

I'm so impressed in watching a 90 year old doing splits and snap kicks.

[SPJ]

if you are moving your hands and feet in the air by yourself.

repetition of single move or forms.

you are only learning to understand the balance of your movement.

1. to develop certain power, such as grabbing, hooking, sweeping or hitting (fist or kicks), we have to use props such as punching bags, pads or flour/sand bags etc.

2. to learn interaction, yes we have to have a good training partner to "work" with.

--

my point is that forms are not useless, they help you some what.

--

:D

[David Jamieson]

yes, the musings of a single individual will always trump a couple fo hundred years of concentrated efforts by thousands. :rolleyes:

[WinterPalm]

Don't like forms, don't do 'em.
Like forms, do 'em.

If memory serves me correctly, you do modern wushu, right?
That is probably why you feel this way, because wushu forms are useless aside from a bit of athleticism.

[IronWeasel]

thoughts ?


Haven't seen any yet...

[Mook Jong]

Haven't seen any yet...

i second that

[Becca]

If the correct execution of the form doesn't come out on it's own, you don't know it, you only memorized it. If it comes out right the first time after months, or even years, of not practicing it, you know the form and now it's time to actually train it. It's at this point that the form goes from being a goofy list of body movements to true fighting art.

[Yao Sing]

Haven't seen any yet...


i second that

You mean you haven't seen any that you agree with yet.

[SevenStar]

basically
i have a theory as to why forms are useless


basically i see it as

if your shadow boxing your thinking of where your placing hits on an opponent and moving according to that, your free flowing and fighting an imaginary opponent this enables you to react accordingly should it happen in real life


now with forms the way i learnt them tho i would try and think where they would go
the emphasis was on it looking right, with the right move coming after the previous one etc

now if your only thinking about what to put after another move arent you basically a dancer? your mind is so preoccupied on getting the form right that you miss out on what the techniques you are practising actually do.


a punch is a punch but who punches with the intention of the one coming after it looking right ? or in the correct order ?



thoughts ?

It sounds like you are looking at forms wrong. As we all know, I am not the biggest proponent of forms, but they have their uses. Memorizing them is really only the beginning, if that is all you are doing with your forms, there is more work to do.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms serve a purpose, some of them are pretty obvious others more hard to find.
Fact is, if you just wanna fight, you don't need forms.
Forms can be the keepers of history and tradition, they can hold the missing piece to your MA, or they can be a total waste of time.
Forms, like everything else, must be accepted for what they are and disregarded for what they are not.



Rarely do you find Boxers, Kickboxers, etc. who stay in shape in their 60's and up.

You need to get out more.

[papillomavirus]

Forms serve a purpose, some of them are pretty obvious others more hard to find.
Fact is, if you just wanna fight, you don't need forms.
Forms can be the keepers of history and tradition, they can hold the missing piece to your MA, or they can be a total waste of time.
Forms, like everything else, must be accepted for what they are and disregarded for what they are not.




You need to get out more.

Hmmm? Maybe you ain't ignorant?

Good Post!!!!!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hmmm? Maybe you ain't ignorant?

Good Post!!!!!!!!

Careful groin ache, cross thread stalking went out of fashion with mullets,
:D

[papillomavirus]

Careful groin ache, cross thread stalking went out of fashion with mullets,
:D

Okay I was wrong:p:p:p

[xcakid]

Shadow Boxing.....................Is a modern forms practice
Hitting the bag......................Is a modern forms practice

Form, shadow boxing, hitting the bag. All teaches balance, combinations, footwork and works on stamina.

[lkfmdc]

yes, the musings of a single individual will always trump a couple fo hundred years of concentrated efforts by thousands. :rolleyes:

Ah, but the educated concensus is that forms as we know them today are less than TWO hundreds years old as opposed to a martial culture in CHina that is THOUSANDS of years old

IE, for most of TCMA's history, it was done more like, gasp!, mixed martial arts :eek:

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The shaolin 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is in the history book as being 1000 years old....

[rogue]

Is that a 1000 year old history book?

[lkfmdc]

"postures" in TCMA can mean a lot of things, in many cases it means "techniques"... again, forms as we see them today are NOT much older than 150 years old

[lkfmdc]

Is that a 1000 year old history book?

It's RD, so he must mean "video tape" :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Same holds true with Okinawan and Japanese sysetms it seems.

From what I gather, in terms of Karate for example, outside of Sanchin ( which is a variation/modification of ****ien White Crane's Sam jian ( sp?) or another souther kung fu system like SPM or Lung Yung) most of the forms tend to be early 20th late 19th century.

[Pork Chop]

I used to think forms and shadowboxing were relatively the same thing.
Now that I've got more sport training under my belt I don't feel the same way.

I know this is all very dependent on style, but here are my observations.

Shadowboxing has a bit more visualization involved.
Yes, I know you're supposed to visualize the movements of a form being applied to a resisting opponent as you're doing them; but with a form you can't really play over your last sparring session in your head and work on what you'd do different- because a form does not change.

Shadowboxing does work on balance and technique but it tends to be more relaxed.
I have a few forms that I've done above the 10,000x mark and competed with - so don't bother saying i just "don't have enough experience". Throwing with full power in shadowboxing is actually kind of a rarity; the key tends to be relaxation and loosening up. I think forms are played much more "tense" - maybe the power itself is more relaxed in sport arts; not sure. Shadowboxing in sport arts tends to stress "being light on the feet"; where forms practice usually stresses "deep stances".

Shadowboxing is more acutely focused on how you fight. Shadowboxing is done from your fighting stance/framework, working on angles & strategies that you're looking to use in the fight. I don't know how many times I learned a form and asked someone "well what's this for?" and heard back "well in application it looks different....". I think of forms more as technique building blocks arranged in a specific way to teach specific principles. They're like exercises that build your foundation for fighting, as opposed to directly working on the fighting itself. Let's be honest, there are very few people that fight from the same framework as are in their forms. This doesn't mean the rest aren't using their kung fu; people just need to be adaptable in a situation as fluid as live sparring - so holding a pose for the pose's sake won't fly and sometimes the deep stances & chambered punches have to go away.

I still don't want to say one's better than the other. Forms definitely have their uses. I'd just rather use shadowboxing as a quick warm up and skip to the part where i actually get to hit stuff instead of spending the majority of my training time hitting the air.

[couch]

Ah, but the educated concensus is that forms as we know them today are less than TWO hundreds years old as opposed to a martial culture in CHina that is THOUSANDS of years old

IE, for most of TCMA's history, it was done more like, gasp!, mixed martial arts :eek:

Then what happened? Why all the segregation? Any ideas?

[MasterKiller]

Then what happened? Why all the segregation? Any ideas?

Public schools need a curriculum.

[Yao Sing]

Forms are for beginners who can't yet mix and match their techniques. They are an example of how they can fit together. They should be outgrown after a certain point and only preserved for teaching the next generation.

Once you understand the moves and the style you should practice freeform (like shadowboxing). The problem is some never get comfortable taking off the training wheels.

[lkfmdc]

Why all the segregation? Any ideas?

They went from 1 or 2 students hanging around their house to 100 guys in a public school. Was a lot easier to all make them do forms, keep them coming back for more forms, collectiong tuition every month, than to teach in the personalized way it had been done in the past.....

[couch]

They went from 1 or 2 students hanging around their house to 100 guys in a public school. Was a lot easier to all make them do forms, keep them coming back for more forms, collectiong tuition every month, than to teach in the personalized way it had been done in the past.....

Thanks LK and MK.

As far as mixing (MMA-style), do you think there ever was a pre-BJJ form(s)? Like in Judo (with their 'ground-fighting form') If people were mixing and matching for so long, I always wonder what happened that we have certain styles via thought processes (ie: Wing Chun vs. CLF) or country (Muay Thai vs. Savate). I wonder at what point people said: no more mixing...I only do stand-up from now on.

Hmm...

[lkfmdc]

Thanks LK and MK.

As far as mixing (MMA-style), do you think there ever was a pre-BJJ form(s)? Like in Judo (with their 'ground-fighting form') If people were mixing and matching for so long, I always wonder what happened that we have certain styles via thought processes (ie: Wing Chun vs. CLF) or country (Muay Thai vs. Savate). I wonder at what point people said: no more mixing...I only do stand-up from now on.

Hmm...

All real martial arts are "mixed" if you understand the term to mean striking and grappling, if they aren't they are crap, pretty simple really....

Karate has trips, sweeps and throws, kicks where they fall to the ground, etc

Judo has strikes

Japanese Jiu Jitsu is completely mixed, a system that embraced weapons as well

All TCMA has both striking and grappling

Wrestling is universal in cultures around the world, but the idea of ground grappling in combat is someone "new", a lot of assumptions about what would or could happen, and some fundamental changes in reality (ie we aren't walking around with swords and spears all day anymore)....

[Lucas]

basically
i have a theory as to why forms are useless


basically i see it as

if your shadow boxing your thinking of where your placing hits on an opponent and moving according to that, your free flowing and fighting an imaginary opponent this enables you to react accordingly should it happen in real life


now with forms the way i learnt them tho i would try and think where they would go
the emphasis was on it looking right, with the right move coming after the previous one etc

now if your only thinking about what to put after another move arent you basically a dancer? your mind is so preoccupied on getting the form right that you miss out on what the techniques you are practising actually do.


a punch is a punch but who punches with the intention of the one coming after it looking right ? or in the correct order ?



thoughts ?

In regards to you post concerning forms vs. shadowboxing, there is a point where these two elements can be on common ground.

When you learn a chinese style, many times you will be giving the techniques through a string of movments. Forms. At the beginning you work hard to memorize each technique, so that they can, in time, be executed seperately as needed.

Once you have accumulated enough time within your chosen style, many of these "forms" will become engraned into your bodies muscle memory.

You heard bruce lee say something along the lines of "learn the form, then forget the form" This is just part of the basic process of learning chinese martial arts via form.

Once you "own" the form, and know it intimately, you can essentially forget the form. You dont 'need' the form anymore for anything other than passing the form on in a teaching format.

At this point, when you 'know' your style, you can shadow box using all the techniques in your 'forms', yet with no pre arranged format.

Free form shadow boxing. I do this every single day. Many CMA practitioners do. Personally, I also practice a select handfull of forms to one day pass on to someone. In addition once a month I review the forms that I do not practice on a regular basis. Simply to remember.

However, CMA practitioners are not confined by their 'forms'. It is quite the opposite. Once you become the form, they can set you free.

[Lucas]

of course remember, there are many many form collectors.

However this is not necessarily bad. it is just what they are.

each person serves as a different cog on the wheel....

[Mook Jong]

I think this all kind of goes back to the same argument some people make about stances. I've heard people saythings like cross stepping is useless bc you can be knocked over easily if shoved. The thing is, that a cross step isn't supposed to be used statically, it's a step used to transition, move or set up a strike. Same thing with forms, you can't just run through a form and expect to level your opponent(s), but to help understand techniques and become comfortable with them, they're very helpful IMHO. Unless you know the quart of blood technique, then all bets are off:D

[Pork Chop]

Lucas

I think what you're saying is extremely school specific. That (ie. teaching to freestyle shadowbox with techs from the forms) was not the case at a lot of the places I've trained.

Mook Jong

The thing is, a lot of sport-fighting people will tell you that lateral cross stepping is useless even if it is transitional - just have to time a kick/punch while the crossing leg is in the air and they'll be off balance. Now forward and backward crossing steps are not quite the same thing - you can steal a step moving forward either in front or behind the front leg without too much trouble; I like to double up on crosses with the steal step in front a lot of judo throws start with the steal step in back. Retreating, I'm not sure I'd recommend the cross step - unless i was using the step as a recover so I could immediately fire a side kick - because that's all i've tried.

[Becca]

Once you understand the moves and the style you should practice freeform (like shadowboxing). The problem is some never get comfortable taking off the training wheels.... or realize you are suposed to take them off.

[WinterPalm]

I'm a big fan of the forms that build the body up...like iron ring training and gung lik type forms.
These are the most valuable in any kung fu system. I think you can keep practicing these without worrying about shedding them. Maybe once you've got the fighting movements down pat you won't need to drill them, but the developmental ones are invaluable in my opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm a big fan of the forms that build the body up...like iron ring training and gung lik type forms.
These are the most valuable in any kung fu system. I think you can keep practicing these without worrying about shedding them. Maybe once you've got the fighting movements down pat you won't need to drill them, but the developmental ones are invaluable in my opinion.

Agreed.
Because I say so !! ( Actually, I just need to add more words to reach the minimum :D ).

[Lucas]

I see what you mean about school specific. I agree with you on that, not all schools will stress this.

Perhaps I should have stressed more the ability to be able to free form shadow box.

IMO one should not be stuck within the format of the forms they practice.

IE: there are many movements that can follow one particular technique, not only the ones shown in your forms.

It is the ability to utilize all of your techniques from more perspectives than the limited forms allow.

[golden arhat]

yes, the musings of a single individual will always trump a couple fo hundred years of concentrated efforts by thousands. :rolleyes:

finally


someone gets it.

[golden arhat]

Don't like forms, don't do 'em.
Like forms, do 'em.

If memory serves me correctly, you do modern wushu, right?
That is probably why you feel this way, because wushu forms are useless aside from a bit of athleticism.

i USED to do modern wushu

correct



i also have been doing traditional martial arts including tkd, hung gar and aikido. since i was roughly six years old


i've been doing mixed martial arts for the past 2 years now

[Lucas]

One mans trash is another mans treasure.

pretty cliche' BUT it very much so holds truth.

also experiences will govern the way we percieve...

I have asked some people who hate forms before to perform one for me that they had previously learned. of course I asked for their best form.

Now granted I have only asked this of 2 people, neither person gave me a good example.

This could be for a multiple of reasons, however in these two cases, their material was just playn rubbish. only one of the guys seemed to even know what he was performing. however neither of them (agreeably so after the performance) put in the time to actually master the form in question. let alone a majority of the applications.

They had practiced traditional arts, but only so far. which was not far enough.

besides one of the guys was TKD, which is all good and well, but it was a sport style, hardly self defense oriented.

[Yao Sing]

I think overall you'll find that the peeps who trash forms aren't very good at them and the peeps who defend them are good at them. That and the fact that the peeps trashing forms have usually made the switch to MMA.

You can see that coming a mile away and I was going to say something when someone commented that Golden Arhat thought forms were useless because he was a modern Wushu player. I was going to say it was because he recently started training at an MMA camp.

You can always tell who starts training at a MMA gym by the rhetoric they begin spouting.

[SifuAbel]

i USED to do modern wushu

correct



i also have been doing traditional martial arts including tkd, hung gar and aikido. since i was roughly six years old


i've been doing mixed martial arts for the past 2 years now

Yeah, now at 17 you are seasoned and worldly. :rolleyes: I can't wait until you actually grow up to see how much of a golden asshat you are.

I may not live to see that day, however.

[golden arhat]

I may not live to see that day, however.

hope so :)

[Becca]

i USED to do modern wushu

correct



i also have been doing traditional martial arts including tkd, hung gar and aikido. since i was roughly six years old


i've been doing mixed martial arts for the past 2 years nowReally? You should have gotten some good, solid, usfull forms with the Hung Gar if you stuck around for any length of time or were over the age of 10.

[SifuAbel]

hope so :)

yeah, 60 years won't be enough.

[golden arhat]

Really? You should have gotten some good, solid, usfull forms with the Hung Gar if you stuck around for any length of time or were over the age of 10.

maybe the instruction was poor for my hung gar. i personally with hindsight dont think it measures up to what i'm doing now in both quality and physically.

my tkd instructor was a silver medalist at one point tho, and i will give it its due my kicks are my strength, goes to show what getting in there early can do. haha

i was 15 when i left my hung gar teacher, and i havent studied it under anyone else so i dont have much to compare it with


but my trad training isnt limited to those three arts i'vre done a myriad of others, not for as long but just to give them a go and they all seem to be as good/bad as each other.

[Becca]

maybe the instruction was poor for my hung gar. i personally with hindsight dont think it measures up to what i'm doing now in both quality and physically.
.... i was 15 when i left my hung gar teacher, and i havent studied it under anyone else so i dont have much to compare it with
...
Maybe you are just not one of those who doesn't get much from forms, too. Heck, even the guy I was studying submission wrestling from figured out I work best with forms and "created" a couple for me. Of course, he is a figment of my imagination as he is a successful mixed martial artist who's stand up is Wing Chun.
:D

[Pork Chop]

You can always tell who starts training at a MMA gym by the rhetoric they begin spouting.

Nobody tells me to say these things.
I'm speaking 100% from personal experience.
One of the stories I bring up is how taking up training forms & stances again led to my footwork in san shou going down hill and getting chewed out for it (ie. for becoming more flat-footed, not for training forms & stancework).
I've tried both and I'm allowed to have an opinion.
It's not like I drank the koolaide, if anything I stopped drinking it.

I very rarely tell people at muay thai, boxing, mma, or san shou gyms my prior tcma background.
the subject just never comes up.
i think you'd be surprised at how little actual talking goes on outside of the current days lesson.
Was watching satori science's vid with sharif and maoshan; remembered the good ole days of sitting around talking like that with sifu; and then realized that I've never really had any of those philosophy type talks at any of the gyms I train at.

[David Jamieson]

Nobody tells me to say these things.
I'm speaking 100% from personal experience.
One of the stories I bring up is how taking up training forms & stances again led to my footwork in san shou going down hill and getting chewed out for it (ie. for becoming more flat-footed, not for training forms & stancework).
I've tried both and I'm allowed to have an opinion.
It's not like I drank the koolaide, if anything I stopped drinking it.

I very rarely tell people at muay thai, boxing, mma, or san shou gyms my prior tcma background.
the subject just never comes up.
i think you'd be surprised at how little actual talking goes on outside of the current days lesson.
Was watching satori science's vid with sharif and maoshan; remembered the good ole days of sitting around talking like that with sifu; and then realized that I've never really had any of those philosophy type talks at any of the gyms I train at.

lol. I concur with this marked difference. Just shut up and train is the apparent rule of thumb in a modern gym.

I like forms personally. I like to practice forms and I like to deconstruct them and drill sequences inside them. Got some interesting combos that way.

[couch]

lol. I concur with this marked difference. Just shut up and train is the apparent rule of thumb in a modern gym.

I like forms personally. I like to practice forms and I like to deconstruct them and drill sequences inside them. Got some interesting combos that way.

To each their own. I enjoy the fact that I can sit around, have a beer with the classmates, check out my instructor's porn collection, etc. LOL

While I think that too much goofing around in class leads to poor work ethic and therefore poor results, I think it's important to get along like family (the Griswolds).

[David Jamieson]

I also like plyometrics sessions, yoga, heavy cv work, bag work, sparring, lifting and running a few k's on the treadmill now and again.

if kungfu was only forms, it wouldn't be kungfu.

[sean_stonehart]

Ah, but the educated concensus is that forms as we know them today are less than TWO hundreds years old as opposed to a martial culture in CHina that is THOUSANDS of years old

IE, for most of TCMA's history, it was done more like, gasp!, mixed martial arts :eek:



Coach Ross... shhhhhhhh.... don't give away the trade secrets!! :D

[mkriii]

basically
i have a theory as to why forms are useless
basically i see it as
if your shadow boxing your thinking of where your placing hits on an opponent and moving according to that, your free flowing and fighting an imaginary opponent this enables you to react accordingly should it happen in real life
now with forms the way i learnt them tho i would try and think where they would go
the emphasis was on it looking right, with the right move coming after the previous one etc
now if your only thinking about what to put after another move arent you basically a dancer? your mind is so preoccupied on getting the form right that you miss out on what the techniques you are practising actually do.
a punch is a punch but who punches with the intention of the one coming after it looking right ? or in the correct order ?
thoughts ?


Dude, you really need to learn how to spell. And if your still having to think what move comes next in your form then you haven't learned it well enough yet let alone mastered it. When you have mastered a form you should be able to do the form in your sleep so to speak.

[golden arhat]

Dude, you really need to learn how to spell. And if your still having to think what move comes next in your form then you haven't learned it well enough yet let alone mastered it. When you have mastered a form you should be able to do the form in your sleep so to speak.

how are you commenting

on my forms ability

i used to love them!!!
even when you know them back tofront

still one move must follow another in a set order right? so that means you cant improvise or make it so you know what each thing does and goes where in a fight i mean think about it regardless of how well you know it its not like your throwing out there as you think about what an opponent would do cos one move has to come after the other one so isnt shadow boxing at least a better tool for the same job ????


and yeah pointing out spelling mistakes is the last recourse of idiots everywhere if thats what you point out first about my argument you obviously dont have alot to say for your own.

[mkriii]

"still one move must follow another in a set order right? so that means you cant improvise or make it so you know what each thing does and goes where in a fight i mean think about it regardless of how well you know it its not like your throwing out there as you think about what an opponent would do cos one move has to come after the other one so isnt shadow boxing at least a better tool for the same job ????"



Performing a form is different than using a form in a fight. You aren't going to do a form against someone because they aren't going to do exactly what comes next in the form. Thats why you have to know the techniques by heart and know what techniques to pick out of the form to do.

[golden arhat]

Performing a form is different than using a form in a fight. You aren't going to do a form against someone because they aren't going to do exactly what comes next in the form. Thats why you have to know the techniques by heart and know what techniques to pick out of the form to do.

i never said you would do a form in a fight your powers of comprehension are severely limited.

thast the whole point shadow boxing is a better tool because it bypasses the whole getting-to-know-a-form-before-being-able-to-use-it learning curve

i dont have to learn a form to be able to jab cross someone, apparently you do?


the whole point is that when practising the form your bound by whatever comes next

i never said what you would do in a real fight

its just that you can perform anything shadowboxing as it becomes apparent your imaginary opponent is doing something you can react

in a form your bound by what comes next

forms are regimented
shadowboxing is individual

i can see why ross thinks that forms were developed for mass classes. just like theyre used in modern wushu classes

to drill the basics with 50 to a hundred people or more. forms must do something but i think theyrea very backward tool unless your teaching a large group of people.

[couch]

I also like plyometrics sessions, yoga, heavy cv work, bag work, sparring, lifting and running a few k's on the treadmill now and again.

if kungfu was only forms, it wouldn't be kungfu.

This is true. For some reason, a lot of people equate TMA with non-sparring/non-bag work/non-heavy bag/non-skipping rope/etc.

I think it is a modern 'esoteric' version of the MA that we see in most watered down schools today.

[lkfmdc]

More not so politically correct truth :D

Forms are also a function of an illiterate sub culture, an attempt to preserve knowledge that could not be written down

Today, not only can we write it down, we can film it and put it on discs.... :rolleyes:

[Lucas]

Today, not only can we write it down, we can film it and put it on discs.... :rolleyes:

This is one of the largest factors in todays martial arts world.

Also one of the reason I dumped pretty much all of my forms. the only 2 forms i practice daily are my xiaohongquan and my dahongquan, simply because I do really want to master those 2 forms. And I will.

I love my weapon forms though, they are soooo fun. I do those just because of how much fun they are. My love for weapons are what originally drew me to martial arts anyway, they will always be a part of my life.

Although I usually do not stick to form with my weapons for very long, I'll run them a couple times, then just do drills and make impromptu forms (weapon shadowboxing)

Some weapons I simply have no forms for. Nunchaku for instance, im an intermediat nunchaku player, but it all comes from personal practice. Lots of lumps and bruises at the beginning, but now I can wail on em. speed bags are fun and so are heavy bags. I also like to beat on chairs with em. yet i digress....

[TaichiMantis]

Everytime I see this header I read "forums" instead of "forms":eek:;)

[Eric Olson]

IMHO, forms are an exaggeration or characterization of what you would actually use in a fight. They often demand that you go lower, kick higher, make a bigger circle or telegraph your movement. That is because in addition to containing the techniques in the system they are a training tool to build the ging/jin/bodymechanics. In addition, forms contain an aesthetic component, for example, returning to the same spot on the ground that you started.

The problem is when people try to apply techniques exactly as they appear in the form in a live situation (and you'd be surprised how common this is especially with beginners who get into sparring after learning a few forms.)

So while forms are a nice training tool to build up the body to support a specific set of techniques ultimately you have to dissect the form and pull out the simpler techniques to work in repetition. And often these have to be modified to be workable.

This is kind of a stupid way to do things and leads to a lot of confusion ....modern styles start with the simpler applications with lots of repetition.

In the styles that I've learned the most useful exercises for application were drills not forms, where we would work a simple, workable technique many times over. However, to be fair to the forms, they got in me in very good shape and helped me develop the ging/jin of the style.

Its just that people today don't have time to d(ck around with forms. And alot of teachers don't know the drills or how to extract movements that could be drills out of the forms.

Cheers,

EO

[SPJ]

agreed.

:)

[Yao Sing]

Are you guys kidding me? If you have to modify the moves to make them work then apparently you're doing them wrong. Minor adjustments ok.

So why are you ingraining incorrect moves into your muscle memory? You don't see that as a problem?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you guys kidding me? If you have to modify the moves to make them work then apparently you're doing them wrong. Minor adjustments ok.

So why are you ingraining incorrect moves into your muscle memory? You don't see that as a problem?

And here we have the crucial issue with forms.

[Ben Gash]

Eric's hit upon an essential truth, the movements in forms are abstracted. They're designed to develop "pure" movement principles for maximum power generation. These then need to be contextualised for usage. Viewed this way, then forms are useful training tools, but won't teach you to fight in and of themselves.
Ross has a point about DVD though, the original purpose of forms was to catalogue techniques, but this misses the point that many people enjoy forms practice for it's own sake.
You can argue that all martial arts training is ultimately pointless really. As an adult in the UK you are statistically highly unlikely to be a victim of violence. I don't know the statistics for the States, but a CCP and a 9mm will cost you less than a years tuition. Viewed that way, how much sense does it make to invest huge amounts of time, effort and money to become "effective"?
View it another way, I work in a high risk profession, whenever I've had to defend myself I use maybe 4 or 5 techniques, all of which were in the first Kung Fu form I learned. I find it highly unlikely I'll ever need to Omoplata someone from guard, so why learn to?
Why do students who'll never fight competitively study MMA or submission grappling? The same reason people learn forms. They find it fun and interesting in and of itself.

[xcakid]

Are you guys kidding me? If you have to modify the moves to make them work then apparently you're doing them wrong. Minor adjustments ok.

So why are you ingraining incorrect moves into your muscle memory? You don't see that as a problem?

Hence we get into another argument of Contemporary Wushu VS Traditional Forms.

Which, I believe, is what Arhat's initial qualm about forms. Its not necessarily that he does not like forms but rather his experience with them is based of the flowery stuff with no application and/or he had a sifu that did not teach apps or perhaps did nto know them. So he finds them useless.

I would too if my past sifu's just told me to move around and never showed me workable applications of them. My money would be best served going to an aerobics class at that point.

[lkfmdc]

ok, here's yet ANOTHER problem with forms

Where is the CONTEXT? :rolleyes:

If I throw a strike in the air, where am I hitting? Is he standing with his left leg or his right leg forward? What does it feel like if I land it? What does it feel like if he blocks it? HOW does he block it? How far/close am I from/to him? Am I faking or feinting? Is it an attack or a reaction?

Here's another idea... when I am doing forms, I am the center. When I am working with a partner, the center is outside me, somewhere BETWEEN the two of us

[Eric Olson]

Are you guys kidding me? If you have to modify the moves to make them work then apparently you're doing them wrong. Minor adjustments ok.

Its not really that they are wrong, its that they are somewhat "abstracted" to quote Ben, for the reasons that I mentioned: training and aesthetics.

Think of it this way, fighters of many different styles lift weights right, to make their bodies stronger. Its not that that they are going to use the exact same motion of doing a bench press in a fight. But the movements with the weights makes there punches stronger.

In the same way a form is a training exercise, but perhaps even a bit less abstract then a bench press. It follows the motions of a technique but its exaggerated to stretch the range or capabilities of the fighter.

So why are you ingraining incorrect moves into your muscle memory? You don't see that as a problem?[/QUOTE]

Its not that they are incorrect mechanically, its often that they are practiced too slow or too large to be useful in a realtime fight accept under unusual circumstances. For example, in my CLF class we used to kick over our heads even though we were taught to kick low in a fight, usually to the side of the knee. Mechanically it was correct but probably not realistic in a fight, but definitely got us in good shape.

EO

[SifuAbel]

ok, here's yet ANOTHER problem with forms

Where is the CONTEXT? :rolleyes:

If I throw a strike in the air, where am I hitting? Is he standing with his left leg or his right leg forward? What does it feel like if I land it? What does it feel like if he blocks it? HOW does he block it? How far/close am I from/to him? Am I faking or feinting? Is it an attack or a reaction?

Here's another idea... when I am doing forms, I am the center. When I am working with a partner, the center is outside me, somewhere BETWEEN the two of us

This is a gigantic over complication. The form is a raw construct of movement. All of the above you mentioned happens(or at should happen) as a consequence of practice based on the raw construct. IE applications drill, sparring etc. You are not the center.

[lkfmdc]

This is a gigantic over complication.



Most people these days feel that FORMS are the "gigantic over complication" :rolleyes:

Wasting hundreds of hours doing something where (1) the movement will be different in actual application and (2) the actual application is missing




The form is a raw construct of movement. All of the above you mentioned happens(or at should happen) as a consequence of practice based on the raw construct. IE applications drill, sparring etc.



So, according to you, first spend 12 hours learning sets, delaying the 12 hours you need to do the drills, sparring, etc, to make it work :confused:

How about just not do the forms and do the sparring and application drills

How many forms champions are also successful fighters???

[mkriii]

I can name you several forms champions that are were also fighting champions. One right off the top of my head is NASKA Champion Terry Creamer. He was for several years forms champion, weapon forms champion, and point fighting champion. If you give me time I can name several others. My Sifu was both forms and point fighting champion back in the 80's. Believe me you don't want to fight my Sifu (John Dufresne). Anyone that knows my sifu will tell you he knows how to fight but yet he does wu shu and was forms champion back in the day.

[Eric Olson]

Most people these days feel that FORMS are the "gigantic over complication" :rolleyes:

Wasting hundreds of hours doing something where (1) the movement will be different in actual application and (2) the actual application is missing




So, according to you, first spend 12 hours learning sets, delaying the 12 hours you need to do the drills, sparring, etc, to make it work :confused:

How about just not do the forms and do the sparring and application drills

How many forms champions are also successful fighters???

Do you see any reason/purpose for forms in your program? That's a serious question.

EO

[MasterKiller]

I can name you several forms champions that are were also fighting champions. One right off the top of my head is NASKA Champion Terry Creamer. He was for several years forms champion, weapon forms champion, and point fighting champion. If you give me time I can name several others. My Sifu was both forms and point fighting champion back in the 80's. Believe me you don't want to fight my Sifu (John Dufresne). Anyone that knows my sifu will tell you he knows how to fight but yet he does wu shu and was forms champion back in the day.

LOL at point fighting champions.

I like John, but LKFMDC is talking about ring fighters.

[WinterPalm]

LOL at point fighting champions.

I like John, but LKFMDC is talking about REAL fighters.

Corrected.

[David Jamieson]

LOL at point fighting champions.

I like John, but LKFMDC is talking about ring fighters.

to be fair, in any sport/art everyone who teaches is a champion at some thing or another at some point in time. It doesn't count for a lot unless they are producing champions in the grounds that are available in the here and now.

or training mercs somewhere. lol

[golden arhat]

I can name you several forms champions that are were also fighting champions. One right off the top of my head is NASKA Champion Terry Creamer. He was for several years forms champion, weapon forms champion, and point fighting champion. If you give me time I can name several others. My Sifu was both forms and point fighting champion back in the 80's. Believe me you don't want to fight my Sifu (John Dufresne). Anyone that knows my sifu will tell you he knows how to fight but yet he does wu shu and was forms champion back in the day.

LOL at point fighters

[lkfmdc]

I can name you several forms champions that are were also fighting champions. One right off the top of my head is NASKA Champion Terry Creamer. He was for several years forms champion, weapon forms champion, and point fighting champion.



"pont fighting" :rolleyes: pretty much end of that discussion right there!

[SPJ]

if you like to do long forms, do them.

if you do not, then do not do them.

to me, even repitition of a single move several times in a row, is considered forms.

forms simply mean a pattern of moves.

and actual fight is always a random event or san da (random fighting/hitting)

for most of us, we need to do both, drilling of moves (pattern/forms) and random fighting.

--

so we do not judge a book by its cover.

we also do not judge a person's fighting abililty by judging him doing forms only.

etc

etc


my 0.0000002.

:D

[golden arhat]

i'd like to point out that of people who are really good at forms and i think have a really good fighting ability i'd have to put "blacktaoist" up there. that guy has some good shiat
i mean i still think forms are an outdated tool but he does alright.

i'd also like to point out that i think the form in taiji is indespensable i think it would be hard to learn how to fight with taiji without learning via the form the way to move in that particular relaxed way. but if your doing a straight up external art i think there are better ways.

[Ben Gash]

There are no straight up external TCMAs.

[SifuAbel]

How many forms champions are also successful fighters???

You, apparently, Mr. Strawman.

[SifuAbel]

So, according to you, first spend 12 hours learning sets, delaying the 12 hours you need to do the drills, sparring, etc, to make it work :confused:


Well no, if your forms are so asinine that they won't build any skills then by all means don't do them.

What i want to know is, what is so **** complicated in form that it needs a major overhaul? Block , punch, kick. get over it.

[golden arhat]

There are no straight up external TCMAs.

you know what i mean tho


a straight punch does not need a form in order to teach it

nor the way to move in a fight


but for taiji with the rolling and pushing it requires practise just moving that way.so the form is necessary for that, kinda like dancing.

[SifuAbel]

a straight punch does not need a form in order to teach it



.


After seeing so many straight punches with bad form , I beg to differ.

[golden arhat]

After seeing so many straight punches with bad form , I beg to differ.

what i mean is that there are better ways of teaching someone to just punch someone than having it stuck in a sequence with a whole load of other moves.

[Pork Chop]

How many forms champions are also successful fighters???

*playing devil's advocate*
Jason Yee and Shane Lacey, but neither used those forms to fight.

[Becca]

Most people these days feel that FORMS are the "gigantic over complication" :rolleyes:

Wasting hundreds of hours doing something where (1) the movement will be different in actual application and (2) the actual application is missing
...So by this argument, high scholl algebra really is a gigantic waste of time?
The practice of algabraic formulas is definantly different that what a carpenter uses in his shop, and I bet the math teacher is not too good at carpentry. And the carpenter must be a fraud because I bet he couldn't teach math...

Abstract ? yes. but still a good corrilation. You can learn to be a good fighter using forms or just drilling. You can become a good carpenter by learning the math behind the building theories. But just becuase another has chosen a path you would not have, doesn't mean that they can't get there on that path or that there is nothing to be gained from it.

[Becca]

you know what i mean tho


a straight punch does not need a form in order to teach it

nor the way to move in a fight


but for taiji with the rolling and pushing it requires practise just moving that way.so the form is necessary for that, kinda like dancing.So you get the point of forms, but never figured out that that point transfers to any martial art?!? Or you didn't realize that there is a type of rolling, pushing, and basic power generation unique to each art that needs to be practive in just that way? I'm posative that Ross trains fantastic fighters, but I bet those fighters look like themselves, use thier own interpritation of power generation, when they fight. I bet Ross can fight using the exat same power generation techniques his sifu used, if he chose to, because he learned the forms.

;);)

[lkfmdc]

*playing devil's advocate*
Jason Yee and Shane Lacey, but neither used those forms to fight.

Jason Yee, YES, he is the notable exception to the rule

Shane has yet, to my knowldege, done any CONTACT fighting. When Tat Mau Wong had his tournaments, Shane was always doing point fighting, even teh years there was san shou....

[Scott R. Brown]

Does Jason Yee train for his fights using only forms? If not, I don't think it counts!

[lkfmdc]

Does Jason Yee train for his fights using only forms? If not, I don't think it counts!

(sarcasm)

strangely, Jason used to hit pads, kick a heavy bag, do drills in shin pads and sparred a lot.....

(/sarcasm)

[Scott R. Brown]

So what you are saying is, training in forms does make one a better fighter, right?:eek:

[SifuAbel]

I obviously don't belong in this conversation. Because to most of you its an either/or proposition.

I did it all, so did you, Ross. I did form work as part of a greater whole. Along with pad, bag, sparring etc etc etc. A repetition of a strike is a repetition of a strike. Its asinine to think that the same flexion and extension of the muscles needed are somehow alien if done in different methods.

[Scott R. Brown]

Yeah Abel,

No one else here ever trained/trains like that but you and Ross!:rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

I know its hard, but, don't be stupid. Thats not what I meant.

[Scott R. Brown]

You are the one on his high horse. I was making a joke! Try not being so stupid yourself!

[lkfmdc]

I obviously don't belong in this conversation.



and yet...........




I did it all, so did you, Ross.



and I've said many times that I wasted a huge amount of time with many things associated with "tradition" and swore I'd never waste my students' time with it.....

So don't try and drag me onto "your side"

[Yao Sing]

I like the way everyone just shrugs off point fighters when some of them can probably beat the crap out a few of the naysayers here.

So because they point fight that means they have zero real fighting skills. That hardly a logical deduction.

Chuck Norris was just a standup fighter (and at one time a point fighter) so since he isn't MMA I guess Golden Arhat can take him easily.

[lkfmdc]

I like the way everyone just shrugs off point fighters when some of them can probably beat the crap out a few of the naysayers here.



anything is possible, but I've been at this for a long time, I really really really really doubt it :D

Anyone who wants to spar at NY San Da is welcome to do so (you might want to ask a few forum members who have been here about it!!)

[Scott R. Brown]

Playing tag is not the same thing as getting hit and hitting someone else, rolling on the floor and getting cold c0cked in the back of the head with a bottle.

Point fighting is a game, it is not a fight. Having said that just because one plays tag does not mean they can't fight, but neither does it automatically mean they can fight.

The most efficient use of ones time is to train according to the manner in which you expect to perform. The body responds best when you train in this manner.

So if you want to punch people, practice punching people, if you want to roll on the floor with people, practice rolling on the floor with people. If you want to dance, then dance. There is nothing wrong with dancing, but don't think that dancing prepares you for bullfighting!

[Becca]

I like the way everyone just shrugs off point fighters when some of them can probably beat the crap out a few of the naysayers here.

Simple. If you like forms, you obviously don't use pads, spar, or anything else. If you happen to like forms, or even see any use for them, and are not bowing to the alter of MMA, they simply ignore you. I can't honestly think of once Ross acknowledged SPJ on a thread like this.

:D

[lkfmdc]

everyone has an opinion, not all opinions are equal, it's tough, people hate it, but it is still true :rolleyes:

Said it before, in TCMA a lot of talk about fighting, not so much fighting. If you are so confident in what you do, enter a FULL CONTACT MATCH, not point sparring. See how you do.

My guys have done boxing, kickboxing, San Shou, San da, Muay Thai, submission grappling, and MMA. We aren't about a "rules set", we're about being able to use what we practice for REAL

I've been doing this since 1994. My results are well documented. Show me something comparable and we can give some weight to your talk, without it, it is just talk

[Becca]

Said it before, in TCMA a lot of talk about fighting, not so much fighting. If you are so confident in what you do, enter a FULL CONTACT MATCH, not point sparring. See how you do....I endever not to chicken out one of these times. :D

There's a nice grappling/submission wrestling turny in Denver on the 10th I'm trying to talk myself into. Sounds like a good place to start if I really want to know how I'd fair against "real" grapplers. I'm about as novice at submission wrestling as it gets, so if I fall flat on my face, no one would be suprized.....:o

[lkfmdc]

I endever not to chicken out one of these times. :D

There's a nice grappling/submission wrestling turny in Denver on the 10th I'm trying to talk myself into. Sounds like a good place to start if I really want to know how I'd fair against "real" grapplers. I'm about as novice at submission wrestling as it gets, so if I fall flat on my face, no one would be suprized.....:o

What exactly would there to be afraid of? That you might lose? My sifu was a feared and respected fighter, he also flat out told us MANY time that he had lost QUITE A FEW matches.... and was BETTER for each of them

The only thing you'd have to fear, would be "discovering" that, gasp, you are human and can lose, and that there is something more to learn

Only people with a vested interest in perpetuating a myth would fear competition

[Scott R. Brown]

I agree.

In our society we tend to think too much about winning in a competition. I understand that is the overall purpose however, to me competition should be about challenging us to improve.

I haven't competed in many years. In my younger days I was a State class swimmer. If I won a race, but did not improve my time, it was the same as a loss in my mind. If I lost a race, but improved my time, it was the same as a win in my mind. My purpose was to improve myself and one well established manner to stimulate improvement is to be tested. For fighting that means actually fighting.

Being challenged reinforces our strengths and hopefully reveals to us our weaknesses. We commonly learn more from our mistakes than our successes.

[Becca]

crowds bug me, what can I say. I'm not afraid of loosing, as this is a big part of improoving. but i don't even like going to malls because of the crowds. haven't been to a concert since i was in jr. high. always sit in the nose bleed section at events... I like the looks of this turny, though, because i don't think there will too big of a crowd on mother's day weekend.

[SifuAbel]

and I've said many times that I wasted a huge amount of time with many things associated with "tradition" and swore I'd never waste my students' time with it.....

So don't try and drag me onto "your side"

Pft, you wouldn't be who you are today without them.

[SifuAbel]

What exactly would there to be afraid of? That you might lose? My sifu was a feared and respected fighter,

Thank God he only wasted part of his time on Kung fu training, right?

[golden arhat]

I

Chuck Norris was just a standup fighter (and at one time a point fighter) so since he isn't MMA I guess Golden Arhat can take him easily.

if i'm honest and this is all CN jokes aside. i think most grapplers would be able to tie CN up if they wanted to, well anyone with a measure of skill anyway he doesnt train in wrestling or jiu jutsu does he? so sure i'd probably get hurt but i've probably faced better people than him.its not like there is a shortage.

[golden arhat]

Pft, you wouldn't be who you are today without them.

nope he wouldnt

he'd probably be better.

[sanjuro_ronin]

if i'm honest and this is all CN jokes aside. i think most grapplers would be able to tie CN up if they wanted to, well anyone with a measure of skill anyway he doesnt train in wrestling or jiu jutsu does he? so sure i'd probably get hurt but i've probably faced better people than him.its not like there is a shortage.

Chuck is high ranking BJJ under the Machados, he may be a black belt actually.

[KFNOOB]

I thnk its great that guys here with great experience give honest views on the TCMA. Its interesting to see how those with knowledge and no agenda can give their views on forms, sparring etc. This is incredibly valuable to us newbies because it can really help us pinpoint an art/style with realistic expectations and avoid wasting years in something we thought was different.
Thanks.

[David Jamieson]

if i'm honest and this is all CN jokes aside. i think most grapplers would be able to tie CN up if they wanted to, well anyone with a measure of skill anyway he doesnt train in wrestling or jiu jutsu does he? so sure i'd probably get hurt but i've probably faced better people than him.its not like there is a shortage.

It's not that it's bad to think. It's good to think. But making incorrect suppositions based on that thinking should lead one to perhaps think some more. Mostly about how they so easily draw conclusions when all they have is their own thought to base it on. :-)

[David Jamieson]

In the end. I would say the only real problem with forms is that there are so many. lol

I personally think that one could take a curriculum of forms and use only that as the library of techniques infused with gongs for the partial method for development as a kungfu person.

But then, all the stylistic differences would be lost an various histories, like rare languages would be lost. they are worth keeping afterall...seeing as they are art.

the only forms that are useless are the ones that are made up out of ego, contain little in the way of aspplicable material and are fraudulent. These are hard to pick out, though I would say, not so much when it comes to actually testing the material. It will either work for the person, or it will fail for them. :)

[Yao Sing]

Point fighting is a game, it is not a fight. Having said that just because one plays tag does not mean they can't fight, but neither does it automatically mean they can fight.

And that right there was my point. I really hate being in the position of depending point fighters but there no reason a point fighter can't be a baz street fighter. Of course realistically nowadays he probably would have migrated to MMA. But it's not all that long ago the these venues weren't available.

Someone like Arhat doesn't know there was MA life before MMA.


i think most grapplers would be able to tie CN up if they wanted to, well anyone with a measure of skill anyway he doesnt train in wrestling or jiu jutsu does he? so sure i'd probably get hurt but i've probably faced better people than him.its not like there is a shortage.

You've faced better fighters than Chuck Norris? Name some names, please.

I'm not exactly a big fan of Norris but that statement is pure fantasy land.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that, the main issue with forms is not wither they are useful, but what they are used for.
In a group environment, they are fine for teaching basics and "passing the time" and getting some exercise, all at once.
You don't need them to fight, you don't need them for exercise, but they do serve a function.
I think that most people do them because they like them, they are fun, certainly less telling on the body than doing sparring all the time or equipment work.
They can be used as a "measuring stick, for ones knowledge of a system, though I don't really think that is a good way.
I dropped many of the forms I know, keeping only a selected few, not because they are "fighting practical", but because they build certain attributes and I like doing them.
Would I ever teach them to anyone?
Sure, for the same reason I do them.

[lkfmdc]

Pft, you wouldn't be who you are today without them.

you are correct, I would be BETTER

[lkfmdc]

Chuck is high ranking BJJ under the Machados, he may be a black belt actually.

black belt in BJJ under machados

also integrated boxing into his tang soo do as far back as early 70's

also has a judo background

and. of course, his tears cure cancer :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

black belt in BJJ under machados

also integrated boxing into his tang soo do as far back as early 70's

also has a judo background

and. of course, his tears cure cancer :p

And that hidden 3rd fist in his beard, don't forget that.

[Scott R. Brown]

He's also not doing too bad for 68 years old!!

[SifuAbel]

you are correct, I would be BETTER

You would be nobody.

[lkfmdc]

You would be nobody.

By now, we all know you have a product to sell, it appears to have one client, yourself, but you are clearly actively and vigorously trying to sell yourslef on your ideas, that's fine and well, but please realize a lot of us are not interested in your product

[sanjuro_ronin]

By now, we all know you have a product to sell, it appears to have one client, yourself, but you are clearly actively and vigorously trying to sell yourslef on your ideas, that's fine and well, but please realize a lot of us are not interested in your product

That sounds like a form letter, pardon the pun.

[SifuAbel]

By now, we all know you have a product to sell, it appears to have one client, yourself, but you are clearly actively and vigorously trying to sell yourslef on your ideas, that's fine and well, but please realize a lot of us are not interested in your product

I nominate you for the "biggest hypocrite on the planet" award. :rolleyes: And you're a shoe in.

[lkfmdc]

That sounds like a form letter

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

hah hah hah

[lkfmdc]

I nominate you for the "biggest hypocrite on the planet" award. :rolleyes: And you're a shoe in.

You don't get along with ANYONE, do you? :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You don't get along with ANYONE, do you? :rolleyes:

No offense Dave, but you asked for that one, LOL !

[lkfmdc]

No offense Dave, but you asked for that one, LOL !

NO, quite the opposite, my "products" sell themselves, and I have no reason to try and convince myself that my "product" is good, it is SELF EVIDENT, 14 years of experience and results make it SELF EVIDENT

I also don't feel the need to constantly jump into threads, all of them, and post the same tired "blah blah blah"

now, post some ta-ta's already

[sanjuro_ronin]

NO, quite the opposite, my "products" sell themselves, and I have no reason to try and convince myself that my "product" is good, it is SELF EVIDENT, 14 years of experience and results make it SELF EVIDENT

I also don't feel the need to constantly jump into threads, all of them, and post the same tired "blah blah blah"

now, post some ta-ta's already

Aye Aye Admiral !

[Yao Sing]

you are correct, I would be BETTER

So let me see if I understand this - you're training was actually held back because of learning from a traditional CMA teacher? The same teacher who you've been praising for using his MA in real life and surviving?

Wow, way to dis your Sifu. So waht, a year or so from now you'll be calling him a clueless old f a r t stuck in ancient times?

Maybe clarify this for us.

[lkfmdc]

So let me see if I understand this - you're training was actually held back because of learning from a traditional CMA teacher?



Reading comprehension problems maybe? :rolleyes: I've been very clear, many times..... aspects of traditional training are either inefficient, ineffective or plain counter productive to developing functional fighting skills. Ergo, those things which I wasted time on did indeed hold me back... If I had been sparring, hitting pads, learning jiu jitsu during that time I would have been a lot better. PERIOD




The same teacher who you've been praising for using his MA in real life and surviving?



The same teacher who I've already said often couldn't shake off the clap-trap of tradition, who learned to use his skills through trial and error (a process many DIED in the process of doing), who learned to use his skills by living through a HORRIBLE life that no one would want to experience,

Did I mention who also got his functional skills in part by cross training in Japanese Judo and western boxing?



Wow, way to dis your Sifu. So waht, a year or so from now you'll be calling him a clueless old f a r t stuck in ancient times?



Better to tell the truth than make up shi-t, sugar coat it, make myths and lie :rolleyes:

Yes, in some respects he was stuck in "ancient times".... forms, techniques he taught that he even admitted he'd never use in a million years, techniques that were "for show" etc....

That's reality, deal with it (or not)

[sanjuro_ronin]

CTS was a product of his environment; he was on the one hand totally straight forward and realistic about fighting (e.g. - we asked him one time how to defend against multiple assailants; he said having a gun was the best; we were like, "no, using gung fu"; he was like, "gung fu isn't very useful when you are alone against a group of people" :eek: ); on the other hand, he could string you along down the garden path teaching you form after form without hesitation if you kept coming back to the well spring with $$$; in other words, he was a survivalist; I am thoroughly convinced that if he were around today and saw MMA and the way the guys trained for it, he wouldn't moan too much about them not doing forms at all, in terms of efficiency, although he might be irritated that people not wanting to learn forms was chipping his rice bowl a bit...

our relationship with him was complex (more so Dave & Mike then mine, as I left for different pastures at one point): kind of a luv / hate thing; truth be told, most Chinese couldn't stand him: we had a cultural buffer that enabled us to ignore the stuff that sent most Chinese into paroxysms of embarrassment over the way he spoke and acted; it was the kind of relationship that put the "fun" in dysfunctional...

Sounds like a typical old school MA teacher to me.

[golden arhat]

Chuck is high ranking BJJ under the Machados, he may be a black belt actually.

i stand corrected. i was under the impression that he had no grappling training in which case most grappleers would have the advantage

[Eric Olson]

The same teacher who I've already said often couldn't shake off the clap-trap of tradition, who learned to use his skills through trial and error (a process many DIED in the process of doing), who learned to use his skills by living through a HORRIBLE life that no one would want to experience,

Is there any documented evidence that CTS actually killed people with his kung fu and if so then why didn't he go to jail? Or did he?

[lkfmdc]

Is there any documented evidence that CTS actually killed people with his kung fu and if so then why didn't he go to jail? Or did he?

Well, one day, and Chris will swear to this in a court of law, CTS showed up with a bag full of severed heads..... but I digress......

He fought in three wars, guess he might have killed at least one person during all that time :rolleyes: The Daily News noted he sent those three guys to the hospitol, but that isn't technically dead.... I guess he just go lazy.... then there are like the 500 guys we've all met over the years who out of the blue always seemed to have a CTS story, many about him beating the tar out of people and/or killing a few. CTS left China like 20 years ago yet when Mike was back there there were still people who remembered and talked about him.....

If you know anthing about China between 1920 and 1949, it isn't hard to figure out that a lot of wild shi-t happened and yet no one wen to jail

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, one day, and Chris will swear to this in a court of law, CTS showed up with a bag full of severed heads..... but I digress......


Well, there can be only one.

[golden arhat]

You've faced better fighters than Chuck Norris? Name some names, please.

I'm not exactly a big fan of Norris but that statement is pure fantasy land.

half the people at my gym are bigger younger stronger and better fighters than him (some fight professionally)

there are loads of people who are better than chuck norris

nevermind the fact that he's really old now.

i've fought better people than chuck norris, ive lost but thats not to say i never fought.

[sanjuro_ronin]

half the people at my gym are bigger younger stronger and better fighters than him (some fight professionally)

there are loads of people who are better than chuck norris

nevermind the fact that he's really old now.

i've fought better people than chuck norris, ive lost but thats not to say i never fought.

Do you know anything about Chuck?

[lkfmdc]

Do you know anything about Chuck?


When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.

Chuck Norris doesn't read books. He stares them down until he gets the information he wants.

There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

Outer space exists because it's afraid to be on the same planet with Chuck Norris.

Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits.

Chuck Norris is currently suing NBC, claiming Law and Order are trademarked names for his left and right legs.

Chuck Norris is the reason why Waldo is hiding.

Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice.

There is no chin behind Chuck Norris’ beard. There is only another fist.

When Chuck Norris does a pushup, he isn’t lifting himself up, he’s pushing the Earth down.

Chuck Norris is so fast, he can run around the world and punch himself in the back of the head.

Chuck Norris’ hand is the only hand that can beat a Royal Flush.

Chuck Norris can lead a horse to water AND make it drink.

Chuck Norris doesn’t wear a watch, HE decides what time it is.

Chuck Norris can slam a revolving door.

Chuck Norris does not get frostbite. Chuck Norris bites frost

Remember the Soviet Union? They decided to quit after watching a DeltaForce marathon on Satellite TV.

Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it is a Chucktatorship.

[golden arhat]

Do you know anything about Chuck?

i know that there are people who are better than him that i have fought with.


like i said

i lost, pretty badly

but ive still fought people who are better than him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i know that there are people who are better than him that i have fought with.


like i said

i lost, pretty badly

but ive still fought people who are better than him.

Never mind.

[lkfmdc]

and I should add..... CTS himself never told us these stories, he always seemed to tell us stories about him LOSING, getting beaten up, and the people that were better than him!!!!

We pretty much know all his "bad arse" stories from people who walked up to us and VOLUNTEERED this info, which is sort of interesting isn't it?

CTS stressed he was human and could lose, even though he had TONS of stories he could have told about how great he was

[sanjuro_ronin]

CTS sounds cool, I am sure if he was American, his name would have been Chuck.

:D

[lkfmdc]

exactly; at the same time, he was very specific about a handful of techniques that, theoretically, were very good for "hit-kill-person"; abstractly speaking, of course...

and more specifically to the topic of the thread, when we asked CTS about fighting, he always discussed and demonstrated a handful of techniques as opposed to the perhaps THOUSANDS that existed in the forms he taught....

[sanjuro_ronin]

and more specifically to the topic of the thread, when we asked CTS about fighting, he always discussed and demonstrated a handful of techniques as opposed to the perhaps THOUSANDS that existed in the forms he taught....

Do you know of any MA who has practical experience that would do otherwise?

[KFNOOB]

I cant help it I have to ask.....these CTS stories and all your honesty about him is great.

Please do not take this as trolling...I really need to understand this.

Are you telling me that the CTS students here evolved their training to be more modern while the one guy claiming to be a CTS student (and everyone here said he was not) is teaching the CTS way still?

I find that quite ironic and funny.

No disrespect to you guys at all. We've had our tiffs but your insight and honesty here is appreciated.

[lkfmdc]

Do you know of any MA who has practical experience that would do otherwise?

ah, but then why have so many forms? Everything that CTS considered essential and practical could have been contained in ONE FORM

It could have been a SHORT FORM

But more importantly, it was stuff we could just drill over and over again with pads and partners and learn rather quickly as opposed to having to sift through all the forms to figure out what it was he was trying to teach us, figure out what it was in application and then develop skill in it

Or, in other words, "the problem with forms is......."

[sanjuro_ronin]

ah, but then why have so many forms? Everything that CTS considered essential and practical could have been contained in ONE FORM

It could have been a SHORT FORM

But more importantly, it was stuff we could just drill over and over again with pads and partners and learn rather quickly as opposed to having to sift through all the forms to figure out what it was he was trying to teach us, figure out what it was in application and then develop skill in it

Or, in other words, "the problem with forms is......."

Ever ask him why so many?

[lkfmdc]

Are you telling me that the CTS students ...... blah blah blanket statemnet blah blah blah


You're a troll, and a poor one at that, but I'll humor you for 15 seconds because it's Friday

CTS taught THOUSANDS of people, quite a few are still around and involved in martial arts in various ways, as you might reasonable expect each has their own personality and does their "own thing"

The one, pretty much only, issue is that guys like Mike, Chris, Ventura, Innocenzi and I all DID study directly with CTS and learned significant (if not complete) versions of his methods. Others neither studied directly with the man nor learned much of what he taught really....

[lkfmdc]

Ever ask him why so many?

ever seen "fiddler on the roof"?

TRADITION! TRADITION!

and they were easy to sell.... again, refer back to some of the old posts, different peope got different flavors and certainly different treatment

[sanjuro_ronin]

In regards to forms, I had the opportunity to ask Choi why so many forms in TKD when in reality only a few were needed.
He put it simply as grading material.
Which had been stated by others in the Karate community too.
Even if you learn just 2 forms per belt, by the time you reach 3rd for example, you can have close to 20 forms.

[lkfmdc]

In regards to forms, I had the opportunity to ask Choi why so many forms in TKD when in reality only a few were needed.
He put it simply as grading material.
Which had been stated by others in the Karate community too.
Even if you learn just 2 forms per belt, by the time you reach 3rd for example, you can have close to 20 forms.

Journey with us now into the depths of the average "kung fu mind" (AKM)

I teach you a 35 move form......

"Ah! I learned it, I HAVE IT!" .......

How many people think they've learned something just because they memorized the sequence?

"What's next?" the AKM asks?

"Nothing, you practice that now for a long time and get good at it"

AKM: but I don't really need you to do that? I mean I don't need to PAY you to do that do I?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Journey with us now into the depths of the average "kung fu mind" (AKM)

I teach you a 35 move form......

"Ah! I learned it, I HAVE IT!" .......

How many people think they've learned something just because they memorized the sequence?

"What's next?" the AKM asks?

"Nothing, you practice that now for a long time and get good at it"

AKM: but I don't really need you to do that? I mean I don't need to PAY you to do that do I?

Amazing how that doesn't apply to boxing or MT eh?
And even the systems with less sets have somethign else for you. something only taught to the advanced ones, something secret and uber deadly..you just have to stick around and earn it...



and


it is...

[lkfmdc]

Amazing how that doesn't apply to boxing or MT eh?



Totally different culture and mind set. You might also note that boxing and Muay Thai both demonstrate that they "work" by DOING IT, as opposed to TCMA which is built upon, well, learning the next form so you can learn "more advanced technique"....




And even the systems with less sets have somethign else for you. something only taught to the advanced ones, something secret and uber deadly..you just have to stick around and earn it...



As long as they have "sets" or "forms" they have to have some gimmick to keep you coming back for more. in Wing Chun, it became the dummy and the footwork and dim mak points, and etc etc....

Because how long does it really take to learn those 3 sets?

Oh, then they discovered a 4th set didn't they? :rolleyes:

[mkriii]

You know certain styles of kung fu are know for different techniques. For example in dragon kung fu there is a technique called dragon plays with pearls and in monkey style there is a techniques called monkey grabs the peaches. These techniques are found in various forms along with other techniques some being more advance than others. If forms were not created with these techniques in them then these techniques that are particular to that style would be lost forever. In this way these techniques can be passed down from teacher to student. It is up to you to be able to apply these techniques in the right way. It is YOU that is responsible for breaking the form down technique by technique and practicing it on someone while sparring or whatever method you come up with to practice that particular technique. A form is just a simple way of remembering techniques. To me it would be easier to remember a form than to remember 50 or so individual techniques. I look at a form as one Loooong technique.

[lkfmdc]

You know certain styles of kung fu are know for different techniques.



yet, when people fight full contact, against trained fighters who are resisting, you see the same technique all the time, and none of these "special" and "stylistic" techniques...... :rolleyes:

[Pork Chop]

yet, when people fight full contact, against trained fighters who are resisting, you see the same technique all the time, and none of these "special" and "stylistic" techniques...... :rolleyes:

Something about this section of the conversation made me think about traditional muay thai techniques.

Until tony jaa got up and started doing a "form" in Ong Bak - which was really just a listing of the traditional techniques normally done with a partner; nobody (from traditional martial arts) seemed to give a crud. Now, since that movie came out there are all these "muay boran" wannabes. They talk about how the old art of muay thai has declined; how it's "just for sport" these days. The funny thing is, if you dig a little deeper, some of the better teachers for traditional muay thai techniques are like Ajarn Senanan Yodtong of sityodtong - the namesake of one of the most popular camps in thailand (and the US).

Not only that, but the traditional techniques PAY MORE in professional fights. Now, for an entire subculture of guys basically putting themselves through he|| for a tiny bit of cash, that's a huge draw to use them. Occasionally you'll see ring greats like Saenchai throw a handstand kick, or Somrluck throw a sliding rising elbow.

In other words, the traditional art is still alive- the techniques are still used; but the simple & straightforward techniques are prioritized while EVERYTHING is trained ad nauseum on pads, bags, and people - fire tested in the ring. I think the Thais really did it right...

[golden arhat]

You know certain styles of kung fu are know for different techniques. For example in dragon kung fu there is a technique called dragon plays with pearls and in monkey style there is a techniques called monkey grabs the peaches.

"dragon plays with pearl" is found in so many systems its untrue. as for "monkey steals peach" well that is most commonly found in mantis.



These techniques are found in various forms along with other techniques some being more advance than others. If forms were not created with these techniques in them then these techniques that are particular to that style would be lost forever.



and yet jiu jutsu has hundreds of styles and techniques with many differences between them and NO FORMS. yet has survived and is still a very effective system.




In this way these techniques can be passed down from teacher to student. It is up to you to be able to apply these techniques in the right way. It is YOU that is responsible for breaking the form down technique by technique and practicing it on someone while sparring or whatever method you come up with to practice that particular technique.


if a maths teacher gives you a whole load of algebra on paper and tells you to "figure it out" would you be satisfies that you paid her money in order to teach you it??? in fact what is the point in teaching anyway then if you have to do all the work you'd think everybody would just come up with their own system of martial arts that they made up and didnt teach anyone. no that doesnt happen why because in order to progress you need to be taught so if you want to be a successful martial artist you pretty much need to be taught correctly and in the most efficient way

why keep on going to class when you know that you have the form and possibly a video of it that you could use of itself with a friend for a training partner, sifting through the technique. its rediculous no one expects a maths student to know long division straight away from seeing it used, it has to be taught drilled and explained, thats what you paid for!





A form is just a simple way of remembering techniques. To me it would be easier to remember a form than to remember 50 or so individual techniques. I look at a form as one Loooong technique.

a simple way of remembering techniques ???

so you remember how to punch someone in the face from a dance that you do ?

really ? a form is easier to remember than individual techniques?
wow your weird.

Q:whats more difficult than remembering 50 techniques??

A: remembering 50 techniques, in a particular order!!

[Becca]

Or, in other words, "the problem with forms is......."... THAT NOT EVERYONE VALUES THEM.

The same can be said of most things, though. I have hundreds of books I've read one time, but keep because I might want to reference it later. As you stated earlier, forms are the physical encyclopedias of an illiterate culture. If you value the knowledge, you learn the form. If you don't, you don't. If you are obsessed with the culture, you collect styles as well as forms.

In a society with lots of free time, we tend to become engrossed in the details and forget to pay attention to anything else. The forms collector thinks that his/here fascination with forms will make them great fighters. But being a great fighter takes training to fight. You can get a college education for $2.50 in late fees from the library, to steal a line from good Will Hunting. But it makes more sense to go to a teacher who can weed out the necessary from the interesting.

On the flip side, the fighter who abandons his earlier training tends to forget that it was the whole path that got him there, not just the parts that are still useful to him.

[golden arhat]

. But once you reach a certain level of proficiency, you should be able to come up with your own signature set,


to make life more difficult for students in the future????




be able to perform an already existing set in a manner which fits you as a fighter.

kind of like doing things your way???

you would think that if you just learned the techniques and drilled them to fit you

you wouldnt have to learn a form and the techniques would work fine for you wouldnt they ?

because you practised them on pads or opponents or in drills as they were meant to work? as opposed to in a dance designed to teach hundreds of people at an OK standard why not just learn the techniques to a good standard as they fit you ???

[Becca]

really ? a form is easier to remember than individual techniques?
wow your weird.

Q:whats more difficult than remembering 50 techniques??

A: remembering 50 techniques, in a particular order!!

How about remembering all the ways to transition in and out of each of those 50 techniques? But you don't get to make a cheat sheet; just remember them because....

[golden arhat]

forms are the physical encyclopedias of an illiterate culture.

there are hundreds of forms which are simply drawn


hell when i was a CMA i drew all my forms with little stick figures little applications etc to remember them.


anyway we arent an illitirate culture any more, now we have cd's movies dvd's the internet and most people are literate, so maybe its time to move on from having forms to remember things.

[KFNOOB]

When people must learn to fight whether for sport, LEOs or military they do not use forms to learn. Forms are for purposes other than fighting such as prolonging the time in class to increase revenue.

If schools taught only what must be taught, students would know right away whether they can deal with fighting and the drop out rate would be even higher than it is now.

Thats the reason why NYC Sanda is doing well. It's real and effective. You either learn to fight or you move on.

It's also the reason others are cracking backs down in Florida.

[golden arhat]

And to answer golden arhat, you drill them this way because you can. Boxers have shadowboxing, wouldn't their time be better spent hitting a bag or sparring? No, it wouldn't, shadowboxing is a chance to work on your timing, rhythm, and speed. So is a form.


DID YOU NOT READ THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD ?


shadowboxing is valid because its in no set order

in forms your using someone elses timing and rythym and you cant focus on whats happening in your imaginary fight because your bound into throwing whatever move comes after the previous one



shadowboxing and forms arent similar at all!

[golden arhat]

Actually its not. Try to say all the letters in the alphabet in a different order then the alphabet song we all know.

only because we learned it that way

i'd still know all the letters regardless even if the little alphabet song wasnt around.

knowing the order in which letters go in the alphabet doesnt affect my english ability

[golden arhat]

1100 B.C.-King Wu of Zhou created martial dances known as Xiang Wu

From Kang Gewus spring and autumn.

I don't think King Wu was worried about prolonging class time to increase revenue.

yes but odds are him and his generals would have had to teach thousands of people

[golden arhat]

It would if you were a kid again trying to learn how to read, write, and speak correctly. We have tons of little rules and songs and methods that are so ingrained in the way we do things that most of us don't even realize it.

i before e except after c or when sounded as a as in neighbor and weigh.

Think about sesame street, i can still sing those songs.

but you would still be able to speak english without them

[golden arhat]

Judo and classical jiujitsu also has forms, altho most are for two people. They are still forms.

by that logic every jab cross hook that i do on the pads is a form


thats rubbish its a drill

ive done judo and jiu jutsu and the two person "forms" are simply drills

they arent over complicated dances that waste your time

[golden arhat]

Thousands on a batllefield vs. 30 in a small classroom

Sounds like similar issues to me.

no duh



thats the point forms are a great tool if you have alot of people to train and alot of time to train them in.


the point remains that you can get a better fighter without forms in a shorter time than with traditional methods


techniques are techniques

but there are good and bad ways to drill them


and hitting the air in a regimented fashion in which you dont have a choice of what comes next or what your imaginary opponent is doing to you/ ou to it

is not a good way

[golden arhat]

Is speaking enough?

Wouldn't you want to be able to write, stories, poetry, music.

Any high schooler can brawl.

It takes a skilled practitioner to make a fight look controlled.

i can do all of that without memorising little songs i learnt as a child.


look at all the MMA fighters with incredible strength skill and control

do you think they spend their time doing forms ?

[golden arhat]

The japanese call them both KATA. And some of your simple drills have up to 10 moves in a sequence. Judo also has individual rolling and atemi kata.

yes but your still actually touching the other person when your doing this and have no need to imagine your opponent being there your not hitting the air or imagining anything are you


they dont require you to imagine anything like where the punch is coming from nor do they require that you imagine where certain techniques would go as your just simulating them.

[golden arhat]

liking the name aswell man haha





I CANT READ YOUR MIND!!!!!!






snake ??? !

snake ??????!!



ssSSSNNNNAAAAAAAAKEEEEEEE?????!!!!!

[Becca]

there are hundreds of forms which are simply drawn


hell when i was a CMA i drew all my forms with little stick figures little applications etc to remember them.


anyway we arent an illitirate culture any more, now we have cd's movies dvd's the internet and most people are literate, so maybe its time to move on from having forms to remember things.
So you don't value forms. No biggie, different strokes for different folk and all that.

[Becca]

but you would still be able to speak english without them... bu they aren't or spoken language, though, are they? They are to help teach reading, so you don't have to rely on stick figure drawings? my forms are also written down. but not in stick figure drawings... I learned the names of each "small set" (combo ;) ) and wote that in sequence. My favorite combo is walking sholders. You find it very frequantly in panther forms.:D

[shadowlin]

Being a good fighter has nothing to do with forms or no forms. So to argue for one or the other on that basis is a waste of time.

It's similar to arguing about which style is superior in terms of producing a better fighter. Bottom line is, if your discipline isn't fighting, which has a very specific definition not to be confused with tournament sparring, cage-fighting, boxing, or grappling, then you are not going to be as effective.

You can take any person and teach or not teach them forms
1) if they learn the discipline of fighting, they will be good
2) if they don't, they won't


The reasons to keep forms are individual, but I will say this. There is a richness of knowledge in TRADITIONAL forms that cannot be replaced. Especially in the days where people can "learn" kung fu over the web or what have you. People tend to learn less the easier it's made for them to have it. Not to mention the cultural, historical significance. (For a teacher this has meaning, for all others, disregard.)

It would be akin to setting the Louvre on fire. Would we always have art, even good art? yes. But why would you do that? It's just unsound and it's unappreciative. Further, those TRADITIONAL forms were created for a reason. If you think you can replace 500 years of a highly evolved lesson that has been undoubtedly modified since its inception with a few years of personal study - no matter how scientific - you're either arrogant or foolhardy.

Reminds me how anyone tries to compare MMA to the original MMA, Shaolin. It's just laughable to compare 20 years with 1,500+.

You don't need to throw away forms to study the discipline of fighting. Although it may free your mind or your time up to do that, which could be a reason for a non-teacher to do so.

What you need to throw away is your unrealistic expectations and do some research. It helps to have had a teacher who's actually fought people, but you can just as easily learn from animals or video, or from close approximations like the above said disciplines which although are NOT fighting, are pretty close.

But I will add two things. If you can't defend against multiple opponents, you aren't studying fighting, period. If you don't know the 6 factors of a fight (mentally or viscerally), you aren't studying fighting, period.

ps - there are superior styles, just not in terms of producing better fighters. But there are clearly ones with longer histories, wider community of knowledge, better current teachers, etcetera. Doesn't mean if you study one, or any form from one, you'll be a better fighter. You have to study the discipline of fighting.

[Yao Sing]

ah, but then why have so many forms? Everything that CTS considered essential and practical could have been contained in ONE FORM

It could have been a SHORT FORM

But more importantly, it was stuff we could just drill over and over again with pads and partners and learn rather quickly as opposed to having to sift through all the forms to figure out what it was he was trying to teach us, figure out what it was in application and then develop skill in it

Forms bloat is the real problem IMO, not forms or no forms. Every style could condense down to a couple of forms and they should be optional to learn.


If forms were not created with these techniques in them then these techniques that are particular to that style would be lost forever.

Sorry but that's total BS. Those techniques would survive on their own.


It is up to you to be able to apply these techniques in the right way. It is YOU that is responsible for breaking the form down technique by technique and practicing it on someone while sparring or whatever method you come up with to practice that particular technique.

More complete BS. You don't learn moves by extracting them from forms, you learn the moves first then learn the form.

That's why there's such a problem with forms, people are learning backwards. How and when this came about I don't know but taught correctly forms are no needed but are just another training tool to supplement learning the individual techniques.

If you didn't learn this way I can see why you have a poor understanding of the usefulness of forms.


yet, when people fight full contact, against trained fighters who are resisting, you see the same technique all the time, and none of these "special" and "stylistic" techniques...... :rolleyes:

And because of this the ASSumption is that they aren't effective.

OR

nobody trains them to the point of being able to make them work, which in the context of MMA training is too long so they prefer to use that time refining the basics.

[lkfmdc]

nobody trains them to the point of being able to make them work, which in the context of MMA training is too long so they prefer to use that time refining the basics.

LMFAO, this is a PATHETIC excuse, and pretty old and tired, maybe just let it die already :rolleyes:

NO ONE, anywhere on the face of the planet, in any form of real fighting, is able to "show" these techniques.... you don't think that is funny?

boxing, kickboxing, san shou, san da, muay thai, k-1, shootboxing, kyokushinkai, daido juku, mixed martial arts, shooto, pancrase, Lei Tai, Burmese boxing, etc etc

that THOUSANDS of people, in MILLIONS of matches, yet we can't find even ONE example of "secret weasel snatches the one prune" in any of those matches? :rolleyes:

Where or where can these secret monks be, the ones who dedicated their lives to martial arts and can destroy us all with one finger using the "black zen finger of poo" :rolleyes:

[Shaolin Wookie]

LMFAO, this is a PATHETIC excuse, and pretty old and tired, maybe just let it die already :rolleyes:

NO ONE, anywhere on the face of the planet, in any form of real fighting, is able to "show" these techniques.... you don't think that is funny?

boxing, kickboxing, san shou, san da, muay thai, k-1, shootboxing, kyokushinkai, daido juku, mixed martial arts, shooto, pancrase, Lei Tai, Burmese boxing, etc etc

that THOUSANDS of people, in MILLIONS of matches, yet we can't find even ONE example of "secret weasel snatches the one prune" in any of those matches? :rolleyes:

Where or where can these secret monks be, the ones who dedicated their lives to martial arts and can destroy us all with one finger using the "black zen finger of poo" :rolleyes:

Well, when you put it like that.......

I can find an example of those secret techniques. You take (A) the master of a school and (B) the student of said master, who's afraid to hit his master really hard out of respect for him, and you get (C) a secret technique that can't be countered, but mostly because of (D) the respect that keeps the student from attacking the master like he means it or wants to do damage.

There is no substitute for AGRESSION, the common factor that drives the martial arts of every art LKFDMC listed above. Hence, realistic martial arts. Martial arts of agressive tactics.

[Vash]

oh God - do i have to re-type the story about CTS's advice for fighting multiple people again?

I'd be interested in seeing this. The best I've come up with and used was "run like hell whilst crying."

[shadowlin]

no one is arguing what it takes to be a good fighter per se: there are numerous factors, including motivation, conditioning, innate ability, trianing regimen, etc.; what is being argued is whether or not forms are a necessary part of that equation; and the bottom line is that they are not


oh Lord - another "TCMA is too deadly for the ring" zombie;


what discipline? if you are an aggressive, physical individual, you will be predisposed towards being a more effective fighter


first off, I bet you couldn't give even one example of this alleged "rich" knowledge; second, the knowledge may be rich, and deep, and profound; so what? in and of itself it means nothing - it's all signified metaphor; if you spend anytime training realistically, it goes out the window; BTW, how long do you think TCMA has relied on forms to the degree that it currently does? 1,000 years? 500 years? 100 years (hint: not the first two...)


the cultural / historical significance is that historically, martial arts folk were the lowest of the lows socially (bodyguards, ex-military guys, etc.), so they tried to elevate their own status by interjecting a lot of Confucian, Taoist and Buddhist morality, mysticism and ideology into what they taught in order to make it more interesting, more socially acceptable to the weekend-warrior types who could afford to pay tuition to study; for example, lots of people talk about how their TCMA techer is a TCM doctor: sure, they might be good at "dit da", but as pertains to high-level TCM medicine, they typically were at a loss to manage more complex systemic issues, because that's not what they had to really know;
as far as learning less when it's made easy: you are confusing accessibility with hard work - take two equally motivated people: put one next door to a school where they can practice, put another 100 miles away - all other factors being equal, the man with more accessibility will do better than the other guy; also, the web is about the greatest thing to happen to MA, because it enables people to have more exposure, more information and increases the general level of public awareness of fact vs. fiction


rickety analogy: the artwork in the Louvre is an end unto itself, not a means to an end, which is understanding the progression of western art over the last 2 millennia from iconographic / devotional through representational to anti-mimetic / expressionistic; in other words, if you wanted to keep forms as an historical record of a cultural artifact (a given TCMA style), then that's fine; but if you are keeping forms because they possess some sort of "hidden" secrets that have relevance for modern (or really any) combat, then that would be the equivalent of saying that studying the art in the Louvre is an absolutely necessary component of learning to draw or paint well; which it isn't;


yes - to enable illiterate martial artists to catalogue moves and also to have something to teach the weekend-warriors so that they could train and not get injured


you are setting up a straw man - you predicate your argument with the typical appeal to tradition for its own sake; as such, you solidify your own position without ever having to generate any sort of objective data; point is, "if it's old it must be good" is an assumption that has kept people from objectively validating those old "traditions" for too long - by that logic, it immunizes them from being examined critically by people who have no long-term investment in their practice, it's a catch 22: by the time you've spent 40 years in a style, now you are "fit" to assess it properly - well, how many people are going to, after investing 40 years of their self-identity in something turn around and say "this is silly?"; if someone with a more objective perspectives analyses it on it's merits, they are told that they are only seeing the superficial - it's a tender trap all right, which is why it has survived as long as it has...


what's laughable is that you are buying into the whole myth of Shaolin and TCMA without a clue as to the reality behind any of it - don't believe the hype...and no one is comparing MMA to Shaolin or anything, mainly because there is no point: MMA is what it is - conditioned, skilled, motivated fighters pressure testing what the do against resisting skilled opponents in a non-lethal combat context; if you want to do the same thing in a lethal context, join the armed forces and learn to use the most advanced weaponry available to kill other people; that's more akin to so-called "traditional" CMA anyhow - if you were really going to be engaged in life or death fighting on a regular basis, you got as much of an edge as you could, so you armed yourself to the teeth - empty hand fighting was a last resort, and was used more for d1ck waving then actually killing people


no, but there is no need to keep them either


writing according to the rules of the English language: coming soon to a forum near you...


truer words were never spoken...:rolleyes:


I knew that watching those re-runs of Mr. Ed wasn't a waste of time!


oh God - do i have to re-type the story about CTS's advice for fighting multiple people again?


obviously you are getting gyped, because my system teaches 8...


no, really - where do you get this stuff? do you write it yourself or subcontract out to the monkeys while they are taking a break from trying to get Hamlet just right?

BTW, you make all these wonderful claims about what is and should be and all: so who the he1l are you, what is your background, style, lineage, etc? or is it too super-ninja-secret to be exposed to the world?

Oh, another one of those divide and "conquer" types, as if splitting a message into 20 parts makes it arguable to the point of insanity overcoming reason.
In the old days they called this sophistry.

Now aside from the problem where you just made yourself look like a jerk, your message is too long and divided for me to want to bother addressing. Essentially, I don't play into that old trap. I practically invented that trap, and one day I decided it was a cheap trick to make me feel like I won every argument because the other person just gives up. Homie don't play that.

If you have a series of questions, put them in numerical order or with bullets, don't try to waste my time with using a hundred quotes of my own ****. I know what I wrote, so just speak your peace and quit wasting space.

If you are capable - and this remains to be seen, obviously - of having a reasonable debate, without aggression, ad hominem attacks, overt sarcasm, and childish appeal to the reader's stupidity, well then, we can have a debate.

Let me know.;)

[KFNOOB]

If you are capable - and this remains to be seen, obviously - of having a reasonable debate, without aggression, ad hominem attacks, overt sarcasm, and childish appeal to the reader's stupidity, well then, we can have a debate.

Let me know.;)


He isn't, he can't. You just exposed him for what he is.

[Yao Sing]

LMFAO, this is a PATHETIC excuse, and pretty old and tired, maybe just let it die already :rolleyes:

NO ONE, anywhere on the face of the planet, in any form of real fighting, is able to "show" these techniques.... you don't think that is funny?

So, CTS killed everyone with a straight punch? Did he jab them to death? Peeps don't die from a basic front kick.

Now could you please explain the "secret weasel snatches the one prune" technique so I can understand whether we're talking about realistic techniques or one of the secret fantasy moves?

[lkfmdc]

So, CTS killed everyone with a straight punch? Did he jab them to death? Peeps don't die from a basic front kick.



you must think people die from "dim mak strikes" :rolleyes:

Again, pretty easy concept to understand (UNLESS you are burying your head in the sand while humming "secret technique" over and over again)

Why is it that whenever we see people fight, and I mean for REAL, we see the same things? Why doesn't that ultra-special super duper extra power kung fu unique stuff ever show up?

Thousandas of fighters, millions of matches, yet you NEVER see that stuff....

It's ok, we know you can't really answer that.





Now could you please explain the "secret weasel snatches the one prune" technique so I can understand whether we're talking about realistic techniques or one of the secret fantasy moves?



I suspect it is a move you are intimately familiar with already

[Yao Sing]

you must think people die from "dim mak strikes" :rolleyes:

Not at all but I know you really want to believe that so enjoy your fantasy world. Why let reality interfere when it's so much more interesting to paint me the way you want so you can feel all superior.


Again, pretty easy concept to understand (UNLESS you are burying your head in the sand while humming "secret technique" over and over again)

Wrong again. Maybe if you made an attempt to find out what I believe we could have a meaningful conversation. But then that isn't as much fun or play into your soapbox speach.


Why is it that whenever we see people fight, and I mean for REAL, we see the same things? Why doesn't that ultra-special super duper extra power kung fu unique stuff ever show up?

Thousandas of fighters, millions of matches, yet you NEVER see that stuff....

I stated why I feel you don't see them. If you don't agree then just say so and explain your reasoning. You can even do that AND feel all superior like your the only one with an insight into reality without being a jerk about it all. Try it, it can't hurt.


I suspect it is a move you are intimately familiar with already

I said I wasn't and asked you to explain. Are you calling me a liar? Care to offer some evidence that I know what the hell your talking about with your fantasy fu techniques? Seriously, is it a real technique? If so then just tell me what it is and I'll tell you if I think it's a valid workable move.

[ingchao]

Peeps don't die from a basic front kick.



most "peeps" die in the microwave. Have you ever put a peep in a microwave? It's a sight to behold!
The marshmallow peeps, not the "other" peep. :eek:

And yes, under the right conditions (however extremely rare) , a person can die from a front kick to the solar plexus.
IMHO the front kick is the most powerful controlled kick there is.

[Yao Sing]

So you're saying that you believe that's how CTS won his fights, including the ones ending in death?

[lkfmdc]

I stated why I feel you don't see them.



Your "feeling" is illogical and inconsistent with the facts. Again, THOUSANDS of fighters in MILLIONS of matches, yet you NEVER have seen these techniques ONCE?

Sure, some Thai boxers thought side kick didn't work, but now that they've faced san da fighters they've learned otherwise. Of course, we can POINT to those fights and see footage of those side kicks working for REAL

WHERE is there any evidence your fantasy techniques work?

[ingchao]

So you're saying that you believe that's how CTS won his fights, including the ones ending in death?

I'm not saying anything. Just that the basics are all you need, as long as you practice
the h3!! out of them and develop a good root.

[lkfmdc]

I know you really want to believe that so enjoy your fantasy world. Why let reality interfere when it's so much more interesting to paint me the way you want so you can feel all superior.



LMFAO @ you....

I live in a world where we test and prove what we do every day, against alive, resisting, trained fighters....

What world do you live in? oh, yes, the one in which flowery techniques you learned in forms are deadly, even if we've never actually seen anyone who is able to use them :rolleyes:

[Yao Sing]

WHERE is there any evidence your fantasy techniques work?

First off we haven't defined what techniques we're talking about. You're the one claiming fantasy techniques in an attempt to put words in my mouth and probably try to insinuate I believe in Qi blasts and such.

I tried to steer the conversation towards clearing that up but you prefer to believe what you want to argue against whether it's true or not.

So let me ask you this - are there any advanced techniques in grappling, beyond the basics you learn the first week or so? Do you believe some of the Chin Na and arm locks etc. are valid, workable moves? Standing sweeps and throws? Because I'm getting the impression you think anything beyond a couple of basic punches and a kick or two are totally useless.

[SifuAbel]

Do you know how many times this question has been asked with little of no real response?

What technique?

You know, 'the technique"

Which is?

That one, with the thing in the thing.

Uh could you be more specific?

YOU KNOW, that technique thing!!

wait, he'll come out with that old hack excuse "bridging" as if every style does it and in the same way for the same purpose.

[SifuAbel]

LMFAO @ you....

I live in a world where we test and prove what we do every day, against alive, resisting, trained fighters....

What world do you live in? oh, yes, the one in which flowery techniques you learned in forms are deadly, even if we've never actually seen anyone who is able to use them :rolleyes:


Sounds like a promo, not an argument. "flowery" is an adjective. Of your group, even if they support you, you are the only one that thinks what your teacher taught you was crap.

[lkfmdc]

Let's review, to get a point of view on what you believe :rolleyes:


I like the way everyone just shrugs off point fighters when some of them can probably beat the crap out a few of the naysayers here.



Your idea of "fighters" are point fighters. And apparently you think they are really bad arse :rolleyes:




nobody trains them to the point of being able to make them work, which in the context of MMA training is too long so they prefer to use that time refining the basics.



no one, anywhere on the planet, in recent rememberable history, in any format, under any rules, THOUSANDS of fighters, in MILLIONS of matches were able to "train them to the point of being able to make them work"? :rolleyes:

How about "THEY DO NOT WORK, and NO AMOUNT OF TIME TRYING TO MAKE THEM WORK IS GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE"

I really hate to break it to you, because I'm afraid it will make you cry, but there is really nothing in CMA that doesn't exist in other martial arts.... anything you think is "unique" probably isn't or simply is something that another tradition got rid of a long time ago when they realized it was "bunk"


I know you really want to believe that so enjoy your fantasy world.



Again, LMFAO @ YOU.... in my world, my students fight full contact against skilled, trained fighters and BEAT THEM...

What was the last thing you beat?

[SifuAbel]

OMG he's talking about "THEM".

[lkfmdc]

Of your group, blah blah blah hot air, blah blah blah

1. I'm shocked you find time to post here when you're constantly challenging 1bad65 and threatening Anthony :rolleyes:

2. Given your history, I dont' think anyone is surprised that you havent' at all understood the arguemnts or the point made

3. Related to 2, you apparently have NO IDEA what "my group" thinks, feels and believes

[SifuAbel]

I really hate to break it to you, because I'm afraid it will make you cry, but there is really nothing in CMA that doesn't exist in other martial arts.... anything you think is "unique" probably isn't or simply is something that another tradition got rid of a long time ago when they realized it was "bunk"




OOPS you fell into a logic hole. if nothing thats in CMA doesn't exist in other arts then they are equal and cannot be considered inferior to other said arts.

[lkfmdc]

OMG he's talking about "THEM".

I'd love to compare the track record of my fighters to your track record as a fighter... I think we can even put up videos side by side :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

3. Related to 2, you apparently have NO IDEA what "my group" thinks, feels and believes

I see what they DO. I know one personally. I see where they're interests lay.

[lkfmdc]

OOPS you fell into a logic hole. if nothing thats in CMA doesn't exist in other arts then they are equal and cannot be considered inferior to other said arts.

Harvard teaches math, so does City College

Which math department do you think is considered better? Do you think that graduating from City College is the same as graduating from Harvard?

Or, in simple terms, for simple people, a Thai boxer practicing straight punches on pads and who has 100 matches is going to SMASH a kung fu person doing straight punches in his bung bo form

[lkfmdc]

I see what they DO. I know one personally. I see where they're interests lay.

You are a habitual liar, prone to violent outbursts on internet forums and just plain annoying.... I think that all pretty much is so well documented even your friends would admit to it....

Since you contribute nothing to this forum, I've decided to IGNORE YOU.... this will be my last response to you, savor it :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

I'd love to compare the track record of my fighters to your track record as a fighter... I think we can even put up videos side by side :rolleyes:

"My fighters", thats interesting, so you've done what countless other schools have done, you've taken 3% of your student body , trained the best you have, the most willing, to go and fight other mirror images of themselves. Congratulations, you're a karate school. :rolleyes:


Whats the last thing you've done . Take a bronze in a small tourney 8 years ago. get real, get into a ring with 300 pound guy and we'll talk.

[SifuAbel]

You are a habitual liar, prone to violent outbursts on internet forums and just plain annoying.... I think that all pretty much is so well documented even your friends would admit to it....

Since you contribute nothing to this forum, I've decided to IGNORE YOU.... this will be my last response to you, savor it :rolleyes:

Spoken like a true *****. how am I Lieing Mr. Strawass. What part is a lie?

Or did you forget I spent several months training with Ventura.

[SifuAbel]

Or, in simple terms, for simple people, a Thai boxer practicing straight punches on pads and who has 100 matches is going to SMASH a kung fu person doing straight punches in his bung bo form

Again, logic poop fest. You assume the kung fu guy does nothing but forms in the air.

I'm sure there are many here that would say bull**** to your remark.

[lkfmdc]

without question, the best part of this forum




This message is hidden because SifuAbel is on your ignore list.

[SifuAbel]

Ross is and always will be somebodys red headed step child.

What a ***. Now that he's been challenged to make a REAL distinction in his vagueness, he plys his escape with vitriol and smoke up his ass.

Notice that the question of "which technique' cannot be answered by anything but, "Oh but my fighters can whoop........" stop hiding behind your people, Rosy butt. You are that fat kid that needed an edge. You took MA for years to that end. And here you are still putting others up to make up for the weakness of your childhood.

You win the hypocrite award again, mr. cream cheese.

[lkfmdc]

He's so dense he probably won't figure it out and will keep posting?




This message is hidden because SifuAbel is on your ignore list.

[SifuAbel]

LOL! the ***gotry continues. O course he made quick fun of others when being ignored by others.

[lkfmdc]

He's so dense he probably won't figure it out and will keep posting?

I guess I win the bet :D




This message is hidden because SifuAbel is on your ignore list.

[SifuAbel]

Little does he know that I couldn't care less.

What a creep. I bet he videotapes his boys in the shower.

Still, he loses, he couldn't answer the questions.

It didn't take much of anything to get him to breakdown and resort to base chicanery.

According to Rossy checks you all don't hit anything. Everybody that hits a bag and does form work chime in and give this old guy a "BULL****, MR. HORSESPHINCTER."

[shadowlin]

1) what is your style, lineage, background and qualifications in TCMA?
2) please give one specific example of the "richness of knowledge" that you claim exists in so-called "traditional" forms?
3) please elaborate on the reason for which you claim that so-called "traditional" forms were created?

I practice several styles in the system of Shaolin, but not excluding other temple styles. The list is too long to bother with. But I also did Judo for 5 years, taught by a captain of the law and his style was mostly ground. In the end, I've ended up with a style (personal, mind you) that is rather akin to MMA except I've infused my own twists and some higher knowledge into it based on my study of the disciplines of self-defense and fighting.
Definitions:
A fight is a situation wherein you are forced or choose to engage an unknown number of attackers in an enviroment not of your choosing and you have to deal with that situation as is, and there aren't any rules, just the consequences of your choices, including laws, what have you.
Self-defense is the moment where you have been unexpectedly attacked, are the prey in a predator-prey dynamic due to the laws of nature and you only have moments to respond. Very difficult discipline.

I also am currently doing other disciplines, but I don't feel like telling you all of them. I do not cage-fight, tournament spar, or do yoga, but I do qi gong, as per my needs.

My interests, in particular are Shaolin history, culture, and medicine.
I don't really care much about "proving" anything to you because that's playing into traps and well, I think we both can tell I'm too smart for that.

like most things I am nothing. no claim to fame, just playing the game.

2. Just one? :rolleyes: I'm torn between telling you exactly what you want to hear and then again, not caring if you know or not, because a) I doubt you'd give it any credence and b) I teach and I hate to just give away anything, especially since I don't think the internet improves martial arts communities at all. In fact I think it's tearing them apart. Like this thread and most of the forum.

I'll give you a simple example just to close the case. There is a form I know of that's only two moves.
At first, when you learn it, it seems as simple as it looks: punch, block.
Then as you explore the physical realm and realize how much work it involves to get it, and how the body mechanics don't generate power without proper movement, you see a whole new level. Twisting the waist and snap.
Then you realize that you can't punch what is far away and you learn your hand position matters.
then you learn that your extending is overextending and your straight arm and bent back leave your balance off and you susceptible to attack.
then your poor stance reveals the place where you and 99% of people lose immediately half of their power: their feet.
then you realize that the block could be a parry
that a parry could be an attack
that the punch can be a block
that the block-punch is itself an attack before the attack
that the attack is an aggression born of fear
that the fear is in clinging to your life
that your life is like a circle
and the form ceases to be anything more than a punch and a block. But each time you do it, new knowledge drips out of it, and you know you could teach someone a hundred ways to punch and block just like that, but all different.
then the form has no more need for you except in teaching and exercise. You've gone beyond the form, exactly where your teacher wanted you to go.

:)

3. I don't recall specifically saying why they were created, but as you played ball, I will.
While I disagree that the primary group of learners were illiterate, I'll agree that they were social downcasts in old China. Also, TCMA have been using forms almost since the inception, but you're right there weren't as many as now because they kept getting lost or destroyed until the 18th and 19th century, and late 20th (though quality is pretty low now).
But the idea that they were unable to read and write is unsubstantiated and frankly, irrelevant. Forms don't need, though many come with, a set of notes to be taught, nor poetic names. Has no impact on the creation or need of forms.
People have been using dance to pass on knowledge for thousands of generations. The aborigines still do it. My point being it wasn't much of a stretch after the Agricultural Revolution when war became trades of those working for the economic elite that a teacher would want to pass on his knowledge to a student in a series of moves=>forms.

Now, evolution always moves from simple to complex. Each iteration of learning the form can be considered a new life. Forms are not static, you know, they change. Each time a student becomes a teacher, he puts some spin on things, no matter how slight or large. Thus the knowledge takes one set of moves that may have been as few as 8, a good Taoist number, and transforms it into more and more that he thinks is important.

As for why the form should be passed on, I don't see any problem with looking at it as I've said before, and I don't see any reason to adjust my analogy. A form taught by your teacher, even if he just made it up - if he's an awesome fighter is a wonderful thing. It's, first, an expression of creativity, the highest outpouring of Shen.
Second, forms represent history as part of the chain that extends back. You are a link in a chain. If you don't respect that link, then you're a weak link, the chain breaks and the ends are separated. That's how martial arts styles die. So it's important to maintain an attitude of gratitude. Those who don't get it, fortunately, don't know what they're missing out on, and the art, like life in the laws of nature, only is stronger by losing the pounds. Eventually, though, just like laws of nature, overly complex systems become susceptible to infection, and extinctions occur.
Third, forms are good for exercise and their fun. Dancing is fun. It's good for your memory, your nerves, and there's more importance to your health than to your ability to fight. After all, you're more likely to fight for your life against Alzheimer's and cancer than a guy with a club. Think about it, guys ;)

ps - I apologize for poor writing, my liver xu is acting up after some food and I had shaky vision while the qi worked through GB channel.:(

[Drake]

I've always seen forms as a method of technique refinement. You don't NEED forms, but many are drills, and while you won't do the exact same motions in actual combat, you may implement bits and pieces from what you've learned. An important part of learning forms is to break them down into their individual moves or combos and demonstrate possible applications.

Essentially, you could probably get the same effect by not doing forms, and just do shorter drills, but I'm no expert at this, so perhaps there is a deeper reasoning behind forms.

As my final point, in the Army we commit to something called "battle-focused training", which is, essentially, train as you fight.

[unkokusai]

get into a ring with 300 pound guy and find out that all the **** you talked was hot air, discredit 25 years of kungfu training, and beg for mercy like a little girl because your ear was scraped and we'll talk.





Yeah howdy you are one tough hombre, fat boy! :rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Chris,

You clearly haven’t watched enough MA movies.

I have a collection of 500 or so that I would be happy to send to you to watch so you may learn what REAL traditional MA are all about. I have seen first hand the efficacy of forms in almost all of these movies and each movie has multiple fights and forms to learn. I know for a fact that some forms teach you to fly. I think those are the coolest ones! I can prove that it is possible to fly because when I breathe the “special” way and then jump real hard I can fly about 5 feet in the air and even further if I start out standing on a wall or a roof. I don’t have the landing too well on the roof flying though! Well, I mean I can fly when I haven’t overdone it by hyperventilating until I pass out. That happens sometimes when I am too enthusiastic or just trying to show off to my little one month old daughter. Don’t laugh please, I am just a beginner you know and I am not Chinese either. I am pretty sure if I was Chinese I would be able to fly even better by now. Or maybe I don’t eat enough rice. I will have to try to find a movie that explains it to me!

Now, from studying these films I have learned that sometimes you will lose a fight because you haven’t trained long enough and/or hard enough in your forms. Sometimes you just haven’t learned the correct form and you need to find a famous drunken loser to teach you the “Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairies”. Well of course at first you won’t want to learn it because it is just too effeminate for manly guys like us, but once you lose a few more fights and are completely humiliated in front of your girl friend you will see it is really the only form that will teach you the necessary moves to overcome your enemy.

Some bad guys are just too big or too good for you so you need to learn to do a back flip while moving forward and then kick the guy in the top of the head with elephant bones tied to your arms. I think that one is a Muay Thai move. I’ll have to watch the movie again to be sure. It is also good to jump over fences in a graceful manner and fall off clocks and things like that, especially if you have Christmas lights attached somewhere. And also don’t forget to make a sound like a cat in heat when you fight too, but also practice it a lot while doing your forms to be sure you sound just right before you use it in a fight. One of the best techniques I have learned is to get drunk before or during the fight, it helps you fight better. So be sure to always carry around some moonshine or good whiskey.

I don’t want you to think I don’t know what I am talking about here, I already told you I own and have watched close to 500 MA movies, and that is actually almost telling you too much. Just about every form is a secret you know and only a few of us know them. Not to mention I make quite a good living secretly selling, er…. I mean, teaching them to others. In fact, I may have to kill you in your sleep with a special ninja technique I learned in a Japanese movie. It was used by a sexy young woman wearing a garter belt……mmmmmm that one was a nice…… oh…. ah… yeah…. right…..where was I…… well lets just say you are lucky I’m not wearing a garter belt right now so just keep everything I am telling you here a secret will you?

I am approaching you here in private because I have been watching you for some time and I think you are wise enough and responsible enough to understand the value of what I am selling….er…I mean offering…… to teach you. Anyway, I have learned and trained in a lot of different things that I will not tell you about because I know you wouldn’t understand much about them. But suffice it to say I have learned a lot and done a lot and taught a lot of important people who have spent a lot of time watching a lot of other people doing stuff that is pretty cool. I also know a lot of people who have done a lot and studied a lot of other stuff that is just as valuable as other stuff that some others might be selling…er, teaching, but their stuff is not as good as mine demonstrated by the fact that I only sell…er, teach…. what has been proven to win in the movies I have watched. I also spend a lot of time sharpening my skills by playing World of War Craft online! I am a 37 level wizard, monk, ninja turtle, shaolin, samurai warrior Paladin, half-eleven cleric, prince! You may call me Galdriel-estrogenian!

So if you think you can be humble enough to empty your cup and listen to someone who has watched a lot of movies and learned the secrets they have hidden in them and who really knows what he is talking about and is not just an internet know it all like everyone else here and who is also handsome and very potent and smart and idealistic with high moral standards a sharp wit and talks as good as he types who can prove what he knows works in the real world of War Craft, then drop me a PM and we will see if you are really willing to learn the super secrets of kung fu forms.

Did I mention I can also fight with a sword held backwards while blind and I can shave your pubes with a Judo Sword while you still have your pants on? So don’t pass up this once in a life time offer or I will have to offer it to Abel or Yao Ming or whatever his name is!

[Laukarbo]

These messages are hidden because the whole forum is on your ignore list

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:

[KFNOOB]

Cjurakpt;

Maybe you should look at my posts in this thread and see that I was very respectful and very appreciative of everyone here's views on this topic. It's very interesting to see these views from people of such great experience like the NYC guy and Lama Pai Sifu (and others).

You chose to see it as trolling...your choice. I was sincere and I am looking to learn all I can. Why must I pick a school? Shouldnt I research? Isnt this a place where one can get ideas? People here have 20+ years experience.

Obviously you like flame wars and you are very successful into drawing people in. I am no exception. Your problems with others have no meaning to me. Its not my business. I do not train in MA. I am in business. I really dont care who said or did what. I only care what art best fits my needs at this time.

You forgot what I still must learn in MA. I respect that...but please dont pick fights with me. I have no ambition to "beat" you. Im apathetic.

Truth is, I have absolutely no reason to argue with you. If you feel it makes your day, go ahead. Ball in your court.

[golden arhat]

Oh, another one of those divide and "conquer" types, as if splitting a message into 20 parts makes it arguable to the point of insanity overcoming reason.
In the old days they called this sophistry.

Now aside from the problem where you just made yourself look like a jerk, your message is too long and divided for me to want to bother addressing. Essentially, I don't play into that old trap. I practically invented that trap, and one day I decided it was a cheap trick to make me feel like I won every argument because the other person just gives up. Homie don't play that.

If you have a series of questions, put them in numerical order or with bullets, don't try to waste my time with using a hundred quotes of my own ****. I know what I wrote, so just speak your peace and quit wasting space.

If you are capable - and this remains to be seen, obviously - of having a reasonable debate, without aggression, ad hominem attacks, overt sarcasm, and childish appeal to the reader's stupidity, well then, we can have a debate.

Let me know.;)

STFU

he addressed all your points separately and concisely and you couldn't give one good come back.


oh and for the record never say "homie dont play that" again

doesnt do well to let your opponents know your 6 years old on the inside

[golden arhat]

most "peeps" die in the microwave. Have you ever put a peep in a microwave? It's a sight to behold!
The marshmallow peeps, not the "other" peep. :eek:

And yes, under the right conditions (however extremely rare) , a person can die from a front kick to the solar plexus.
IMHO the front kick is the most powerful controlled kick there is.

well dos it not seem plausable that he fought people normally until they were on the ground then bashed there head in while they were on the ground repeatedly, thats how i would kill someone with my bare hands

just hit them
repeatedly

[Scott R. Brown]

:eek:I rest my case!!!

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=858514#post858514


Hello,
We are Chinese kungfu training center(www.chinesekungfutc.org ). Every year there are a lot of kungfu lovers come to our training center. You can learn authentic Martial arts at there.
If you want to participate our training, please contact me.

The opening lines of her website states:


Do you know Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan or Jet Li, all famous Chinese film stars adept in Kung Fu? Anyone who has seen classical Chinese Kung Fu movies will be deeply impressed by the Chinese Wushu, which is called Kung Fu or Chinese martial arts in the west. At present, the hottest Kung Fu movies is the Hollywood box office hit, Chow Yun-Fat's CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON,( The training center is located at 45 kilometers far from the photography site of this movie) and the FLYING DAGGER HOUSE, are all martial arts epic.

And to think I learned all I know from movies...boy am I way ahead of the curve on this!! I bet they stole all my secret moves too!:(

I wonder if they can teach me to fly better?:confused:

[kwaichang]

I enjoyed your last post. You might as well give up though those who like / love forms will understand those who dont wont. When I was younger I used to box and was abouncer etc etc etc. But forms as you guys call them did more for my fighting than any of the rote boxing couples training etc, I guess I am an anomoly which is my point. Forms are awesome and are good for some to learn to fight from but not all. KC:):eek::D:p

[lkfmdc]

I practice several styles in the system of Shaolin, but not excluding other temple styles. The list is too long to bother with.



Got it, you do a mish-mash of assorted crap, and even you realize it, thus afraid to name even the style you practice :rolleyes:




I also am currently doing other disciplines, but I don't feel like telling you all of them.



because they are imaginary and will disappear as soon as you take your pills :rolleyes:




I disagree that the primary group of learners were illiterate



and your academic credentials are? your sources?

Funny how respected historians and people who have done research (and live in the real world) all say the same thing, ie that you are wrong :rolleyes:





ps - I apologize for poor writing, my liver xu is acting up after some food and I had shaky vision while the qi worked through GB channel.:(



yes, clearly that explains it all :rolleyes:

we need to set the standard higher for our trolls, they are just plain lazy, not getting the job done

[Yao Sing]

Let's review, to get a point of view on what you believe :rolleyes:

Yao Sing said "like the way everyone just shrugs off point fighters when some of them can probably beat the crap out a few of the naysayers here."

Your idea of "fighters" are point fighters. And apparently you think they are really bad arse

So you're arguing against that statement so you must believe that NO point fighter can beat anyone who posts on this forum.

Sorry Ross but it's clearly impossible to hold a civil conversation with you so I'll have to bail out due to frustration. Once again you are wrong and are injecting what you wish to believe.

So the fact that I include peeps who spar for points in the category of "fighters" you rephrase it so it sounds like I believe only point fighters are real fighters. Question - has anyone in the history of MA made the transition from point fighting to full contact (MMA or older PKA)?

Are you suggesting nobody in the history of point fighting ever got into a real fight outside the venue? Are you really that dense?


no one, anywhere on the planet, in recent rememberable history, in any format, under any rules, THOUSANDS of fighters, in MILLIONS of matches were able to "train them to the point of being able to make them work"?

Offer up proof that someone has actually made the effort and failed and you might have an argument.


I really hate to break it to you, because I'm afraid it will make you cry, but there is really nothing in CMA that doesn't exist in other martial arts.... anything you think is "unique" probably isn't or simply is something that another tradition got rid of a long time ago when they realized it was "bunk"

Your standard bullcrap and again you deciding what I believe. Give it up, I think most of us see through your poor debating skills.

But I keep forgetting you're the only one that knows the real, nobody else knows anything at all.


Again, LMFAO @ YOU.... in my world, my students fight full contact against skilled, trained fighters and BEAT THEM...

What was the last thing you beat?

Last thing I beat was your faulty logic.
How about you personally kicking some point fighters azz and prove your point.

[David Jamieson]

I'm reading an interesting point in the shaolin monastery book that recently came out.

By Meir Shahar, it's a good book by the way and he has done a lot of scouring of records and steles and what not.

Anyway, here's an interesting point from the book that was gleaned from a Ming era document, and it states and I quote verbatim:

" The teachings all derive from the same source. However,with the passage of time people turn their backs on it. Teachers esteem unusual methods, and prefer strange techniques. Some take the opening section of this practice sequence (lu) and mix it with the closing section from that sequence. Others take the closing section of that sequence and mingle it with the middle section of this sequence. So much so, that what was originally one sequence is transformed into two. Thus teachers confuse the world, and lead the practitioners astray, all for the sake of fame and profit. I am much grieved by this situation, and it is exactly for this reason that I strive to set things right"

so, this is from the end of a book on traditional shaolin staff methods that was written in 1621. !!!! lol

This is apparently one of the oldest arguments in martial history. What's even better is if you can Find the Book on european sword arts written by George Silver in and around the same era and you find him making more or less the same commentary on the state of martial arts at his time and how people profitted from selling lessons in what was tantamount to nonsense mixed with basic sword practice that differs little from one style to the next because of the simple fact that the physical shape of weapon dictates it's optimum usage on a plane of space and time.

I agree with the observations of both these ancients and the views they had on spurious or incorrect training.

I think there is a lot of ****ty martial arts forms and demos going on out there and i appreciate the want of the hobbyists to have their cool way to work out.

But actual martial artists to me are either bona fide warriors and or those who fight regularly. the rest of us are in it to stay fit, have a reasonable set of stuff to do should we find ourselves in a confrontation that is adaptable tro what we have been training and that's that.

being a student in this school or that doesn't mean anything and knowing x forms or y forms is equal in it's value relative to nothing.

If you can't, won't or are just incapable of stepping up at some point and testing what you train in a realistic setting. Then you are only bull-crapping yourself about being a martial artist.

If forms are providing you with better fighting ability, then explain the method and show the results.

at least Ross does that, or many others here who have stepped out of the shell of punching air, and speed bowing a lot. lol.

While I respect cultures and traditions, I see that a lot of cultural traditions and peculiarities are stupid and a waste of time. But for anything good, you generally gotta go through a lot of dross to get to.

so learn your forms and do your work. If you are happy with what you have, what more could you want?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm reading an interesting point in the shaolin monastery book that recently came out.

By Meir Shahar, it's a good book by the way and he has done a lot of scouring of records and steles and what not.

Anyway, here's an interesting point from the book that was gleaned from a Ming era document, and it states and I quote verbatim:

" The teachings all derive from the same source. However,with the passage of time people turn their backs on it. Teachers esteem unusual methods, and prefer strange techniques. Some take the opening section of this practice sequence (lu) and mix it with the closing section from that sequence. Others take the closing section of that sequence and mingle it with the middle section of this sequence. So much so, that what was originally one sequence is transformed into two. Thus teachers confuse the world, and lead the practitioners astray, all for the sake of fame and profit. I am much grieved by this situation, and it is exactly for this reason that I strive to set things right"

so, this is from the end of a book on traditional shaolin staff methods that was written in 1621. !!!! lol

This is apparently one of the oldest arguments in martial history. What's even better is if you can Find the Book on european sword arts written by George Silver in and around the same era and you find him making more or less the same commentary on the state of martial arts at his time and how people profitted from selling lessons in what was tantamount to nonsense mixed with basic sword practice that differs little from one style to the next because of the simple fact that the physical shape of weapon dictates it's optimum usage on a plane of space and time.

I agree with the observations of both these ancients and the views they had on spurious or incorrect training.

I think there is a lot of ****ty martial arts forms and demos going on out there and i appreciate the want of the hobbyists to have their cool way to work out.

But actual martial artists to me are either bona fide warriors and or those who fight regularly. the rest of us are in it to stay fit, have a reasonable set of stuff to do should we find ourselves in a confrontation that is adaptable tro what we have been training and that's that.

being a student in this school or that doesn't mean anything and knowing x forms or y forms is equal in it's value relative to nothing.

If you can't, won't or are just incapable of stepping up at some point and testing what you train in a realistic setting. Then you are only bull-crapping yourself about being a martial artist.

If forms are providing you with better fighting ability, then explain the method and show the results.

at least Ross does that, or many others here who have stepped out of the shell of punching air, and speed bowing a lot. lol.

While I respect cultures and traditions, I see that a lot of cultural traditions and peculiarities are stupid and a waste of time. But for anything good, you generally gotta go through a lot of dross to get to.

so learn your forms and do your work. If you are happy with what you have, what more could you want?

In other words, every monk is a BS martial artist because he didn't step into a cage or onto lei tei?

Every practitioner who hasn't fought for profit or in a streetfight is a BS martial artist?

I'm calling BS on this designation. There are MA's who don't fight for profit but who spar within schools and work with other schools who are pretty ****ed good. But that isn't "a realistic setting" by your designation, because he's not trying to hurt anyone--he's playing. You're putting too much stress on the martial, without equal stress on the art.

I think this argument is a load of crap.

Edit: not taking shots at you, just at that argument.

[golden arhat]

i think anybody that doesnt at the very least train with the intention of defending themselves at some point is not a martial artist.


fair enough if you dont want to fight or whatever but if you do it just so you can keep fit or gain spiritual harmony or whatever, you are not a martial artist.

[Shaolin Wookie]

i think anybody that doesnt at the very least train with the intention of defending themselves at some point is not a martial artist.


fair enough if you dont want to fight or whatever but if you do it just so you can keep fit or gain spiritual harmony or whatever, you are not a martial artist.

True, but if you do it only to fight then you're only a fighter, not a martial artist.

[kwaichang]

The way I interpret the post By David J is that originally the arts were taught one way and now they arent so they arent as effective so the forms of today are not being taught correctly it is not the techniques themselves but perhaps the sequence as the post implies. The fighters of old fought with the use of Kata and were devestating fighters. KC

[Scott R. Brown]

No, the point is, this argument is as old as the martial arts. There have always been disagreements and "my way is better than your way"!!

Which it is of course!!;)

[golden arhat]

The way I interpret the post By David J is that originally the arts were taught one way and now they arent so they arent as effective so the forms of today are not being taught correctly it is not the techniques themselves but perhaps the sequence as the post implies. The fighters of old fought with the use of Kata and were devestating fighters. KC

if by "fighters of old" you mean the middle class of the 1800's and by "devastating" you mean you have no clue because you werent there

then sure :)

[kwaichang]

I have as much a clue as you have however you base your opinion upon current methods that are only at best 50 years old I base my opinion on history and as you guys say average of 200 years to 1500 years of tradition. KC

[MasterKiller]

Ming General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587), presents his views on martial arts training clearly and concisely in his New Book of Effective Discipline (1561) and Actual
Record of Training (1571). In these works, one can see practical application of
the best in Chinese military tradition, They reveal that, probably even well before
Qi’s time, the martial arts practiced in the villages as part of militia training had
gradually evolved into a form of recreation as well, and had become characterized
by the “flowery” movements associated with self expression and individual styles.
Qi condemned these “flowery” martial arts as undisciplined and inappropriate for
military use in combat and emphasized that, “…in training troops, the pretty is not
practical and the practical is not pretty…”

Qi combined his demands for physical fitness and effective hand-to-hand tactics into an overall training program which eschewed “flowery” routines and stressed realistic weapons techniques using sparring and striking at targets. Rewards and punishments were used to encourage high proficiency

http://seinenkai.com/articles/henning/qijiguang.pdf

[golden arhat]

I have as much a clue as you have however you base your opinion upon current methods that are only at best 50 years old I base my opinion on history and as you guys say average of 200 years to 1500 years of tradition. KC

so your saying punching and kicking and jiu jutsu are only 50 years old?



you base your knowledge on fuk all


you can see the results of what real martial arts do in todays NHB fights

you never see this so called power of all your mystical BS thats steeped in tradition :rolleyes:


how does it feel knowing you would get owned by the average mma guy ??



the forms we have today are about a hundred to 2 hundred years old TOPS
so much for all your tradition and heritage.

and current methods ?

what you mean training to fight? well muay thai fightrs have been doing what theyre doing and fighting well with it for far longer than your forms have even existed

western boxers and wrestlers have been boxing and wrestling with techniques that work since greek and roman times! along with japanese jiu jutsu players who have been applying their art well for just as long,

you think MMA jus sprang up out of thin air?? god your deluded, someone just thought 50 years ago, you know what ? i wonder if all these moves we're practisoing can be used on a resisting oppenent. because fighting obviously never existed before then:rolleyes:

MMA sprang up because of the flaws apparent in the traditional methods

and guess what ? there are a lot of flaws and i mean A LOT!


your such an idiot its untrue

[kwaichang]

F U Arhat your purile brain cant even grasp what I was saying. So I will simplify it as much as possible so you can understand it. MMA is a SPORT. Not Life or death. Most of the guys train there bodies not their minds except for hey make the money which is why MMA really sprang up you know supply and demand. So believe what you want and please go F yourself. for your rudeness KC

[Eric Olson]

MMA is a SPORT. Not Life or death.

So you are saying that you use your kung fu frequently in life or death situations?

EO

[kwaichang]

As much as the MMA guys do KC

[unkokusai]

Most of the guys train there bodies not their minds


A common refrain from people with weak bodies (and minds).

[golden arhat]

F U Arhat your purile brain cant even grasp what I was saying. So I will simplify it as much as possible so you can understand it. MMA is a SPORT. Not Life or death. Most of the guys train there bodies not their minds except for hey make the money which is why MMA really sprang up you know supply and demand. So believe what you want and please go F yourself. for your rudeness KC

we dont train our minds ?? have you ever done mixed martial arts ??
obviously not

dont be condescending just because you couldnt fight your way out of a paper bag.

MMA is the closest you can train to ACTUAL FIGHTING, and it is TESTED in the octagon
just like alot of kung fu places have TOURNAMENTS which are SPORT BASED

what makes you think that all mixed martial arts are sports orientated
what works in the octagon obviously works against a resisting opponent and some moves dont work aswell in certain situation but thats the same as everything.

sure wrestling wouldnt always work too well against a group of opponents
so you stay stood up, simple

it works when your on the ground or need to dump someone on there head

everything used in the sport can be APPLIED READILY AND REALISTICALLY

unlike what you do which demonstrates time and again that it cant be applied as it is trained today

thats part of the reason i have such respect for ross and lama pai sifu because theyre using techniques that work in cma and drilling them with the intention of using them for REAL not dancing to preserve an art form


MMA IS ABOUT MONEY????

so ignore the fact that originally it was royce gracie's idea to put on the first ufc just to see what styles worked against what ?

that was the original intention and thats still what goes on today.
weother people make money from it is irellivant

are you saying cma doesnt charge students ??

what is tought in the average mma class is readily applicable and you pay for your lessons

so ?

Mixed Martial Arts sprang up because people were dissatisfied with training things that dont work and wanted to break from tradition and be truly eclectic



go F myself?? believe me if i could i would it seems fun.

but as for your repeated atempts to be superior and condescending


EPIC FAIL!


now go back to watching your favourite movie, the fantastic four.

[golden arhat]

A common refrain from people with weak bodies (and minds).

so true

so very very true

[kwaichang]

So now you know what a real fight is like 2 weak minds you and unko on one that is not seen in the octagon, as for being weak oh sure sure I am. If that is what you want to think but this in no way proves your thought about MMA or Trad MA, Now does it. You are the condesending a s s you prove it with every personal attack you make. As for using my stuff in real sit not a tourney sure i have. That is all i will say in regards to that . What about you guys are you guys for real or just memorex. haha i laugh in your general direction KC

[unkokusai]

So now you know what a real fight is like 2 weak minds you and uko what ever on one that is not seen in the octagon, as for being weak oh sure sure I am. If that is what you want to think but this in no way proves your thought about MMA or Trad MA, Now does it. You are the condesending a s s you prove it with every personal attack you make. As for using my stuff in real sit not a tourney sure i have. That is all i will say in regards to that . What about you guys are you guys for real or just memorex. haha i laugh in your general direction KC



What the hell was that random collection of words?

What is your first language?

[kwaichang]

It was your defeat Unkokusai that is exactly what it was oh btw good comeback KC:D

[golden arhat]

What the hell was that random collection of words?

What is your first language?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAH LMFAO

[unkokusai]

It was your defeat Unkokusai that is exactly what it was oh btw good comeback KC:D



Seriously, what is your first language?

[golden arhat]

So now you know what a real fight is like


yes i do ive been in quite a few



If that is what you want to think but this in no way proves your thought about MMA or Trad MA, Now does it.

no not like coutering every point you tried to make like i did above which you have yet to respond to:rolleyes:

it's likely because you cant think of what to say
so just try and discredit me based on the fact that i made fun of you which is pretty excusable i think as you are pretty laughable.

[kwaichang]

GA from what I have heard you need to LYFAO kinda big I hear KC

[golden arhat]

GA from what I have heard you need to LYFAO kinda big I hear KC

nice way of replying to all the points i made there

really says alot for your argument

[kwaichang]

For there to be an argument there has to be a difference of opinion you havent made any points, all that you do came from trad ma, so then we agree and you seem to think we dont, I just think you prob dont know what a real fight is you say you do but who knows. You are prob like EMINEM who says he grew up on the streets of detroit but dont have a single scar except on his knees when he fell from running away. I have done all the stuff you speak of I am not weak of mind or body but if you guys feel bigger by thinking so go ahead. You are the ones argueing over something that is not ever going to be proven. I will make this point. Kata /Forms are a series of techniques joined togethor for a purpose not to score points and if trained properly will get the job done " you all talk of a live opponent wellwhen I train they are always alive and I have knocked out people and broken bones with kata techniques. so they work KC

[lkfmdc]

Sorry Ross but it's clearly impossible to argue with you since you use FACTS and I just resort to kung fu theatre cliches.



fixed that for you




with you so I'll have to bail out due to no actual experience with anything resembling real fighting



fixed that one also

Again, pretty simple task, find a match somewhere, ANYWHERE where something resembling your deadly techniques were used successfully

But you've already admited you can't :rolleyes:

[Yao Sing]

Wow, you don't even understand the discussion.


Again, pretty simple task, find a comment somewhere, ANYWHERE where I say something resembling the topic of discussion since I'm souch a dimwit.

Yeah, fixed that for you.


But you've admited you can't :rolleyes:

Was I supposed to be looking for something to back up what you decided I claimed? I mean we both agree nobody has successfully demonstrated advanced CMA techniques in a full contact match so why do you insist on arguing about it?

Let's just do this, you continue with the debate and post the comments for both of us since you can't seem to follow anything I say and prefer your own version of what I think and believe.

Have fun.

[lkfmdc]

Wow, you apparently don't know anything about fighting or training to fight.

That IS pretty much the point. You spout your opinions based upon what? Based upon doing TCMA?

Hate to break it to you Yao Sing, but I've done as much TCMA as you have, most likely MORE. But more importantly, I have trained people to fight, in pretty much every venue available, IE when I tell you how to acquire a skill so you can use it for REAL, I'm not talking THEORY, I am telling you how we do it, how we've done it a LONG TIME




I mean we both agree nobody has successfully demonstrated advanced CMA techniques in a full contact match so why do you insist on arguing about it?



Well, precisely because that was NOT what you were arguing... you were arguing a few things, all pretty wrong, in no particular order

1) how "point fighting" is fighting (it isn't)
2) how you just don't see CMA techniques in full contact because the right people arene't doing it

oh, and a few other lame assertions that were never backed up by fact

Again though, pretty simple, since now you apparenlty can admit you haven't seen any of that "advanced" stuff in fighitng, you might want to ponder WHY?

Why, with thousands of people engaged in millions of matches under all sorts of rules yet no one has EVER demonstrated them

Could it be, gasp, that perhaps it is because THEY DO NOT WORK