Great article about Judo...but applies to any martial art

[SAAMAG]

I guess what the upshot of all this rambling is that there will always be those who view anything new as not "authentic" and there will aways be those who view anything they consider "old-fashioned" as ineffective. Arrogance is a good companion for both those who lack knowledge and those who lack experience. To equate "proper technique" with something that doesn't work in a realistic situation is missing the point of why we train in judo, jujitsu and the martial arts. These things should be functional. Their function separates them from dancing, aerobics or other methods of physical education or recreation. If we're learning (or teaching) how to fight, then let's learn (or teach) how to fight effectively. Good technique is fundamental, but if it doesn't work, then it's not good technique.

Excerpt taken from: http://www.judoinfo.com/waza.htm (http://www.judoinfo.com/waza.htm)



I was doing some research on Judo competition, and found something that looks like a ripe piece for a conversation starter! Sort of goes hand-in-hand with some of what's been floating around these forums lately. What say you, fellow chunners?!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have had 5 different judo instructors in my time, from 4dan to 8th dan, and they all taught the moves more or less the same way, principle wise at least.
But, when it came to doing it in a practical way (randori), they all did them different enough to be effective for them ( that is how they put it when I asked them).
See, Judo, like ever MA should be, is based on effectiveness.
It has to work.
It does work.
We know this because it is tested, every single time you randori.
Every move works.
Its up to YOU to make it work for YOU.
You will hardly ever see a textbook throw in judo, not unless there is a huge skill difference between the two players, but the core principles will all be there.
Makes sense though, a 6-4 250lbs judoka will apply a inner thigh throw a tad different than a 5-4 140lbs judoka.
The point is, you modify the technique (not the principles) to suit you BUT it MUST WORK.

[KPM]

I agree with the original premise that started this thread. The marketing strategy in the East has tended to be "its old and authentic, its the original!" The marketing strategy in the West as tended to be "its new and improved, its the latest thing!" Both are just marketing strategies. What counts is whether something lives up to its claims....whether it works or not.

However, with no offense intended to Judo or Aikido, I don't entirely agree with the idea that testing something in formalized Randori proves that it "works." It may very well work in the context of Randori, just like a lot of Wing Chun works in the context of Chi Sao. But outside of those controlled situations it might not be so true. I hate to resort to talking about MMA, but that's where things are tried in a setting that is somewhat realistic. How much Judo throws do you see there? Maybe some basic leg trip/throws, but not a lot. I remember the Czech champion...Pavrula?...when he had his first MMA fight in Pride. He was touted as having won something like 300 Judo matches straight without a loss. He got his #ss handed to him in MMA!

I do agree that it is up to the individual to make a method, whether Judo or Wing Chun, work for them. But if it only works in the context of training with someone doing the same system.............

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with the original premise that started this thread. The marketing strategy in the East has tended to be "its old and authentic, its the original!" The marketing strategy in the West as tended to be "its new and improved, its the latest thing!" Both are just marketing strategies. What counts is whether something lives up to its claims....whether it works or not.

However, with no offense intended to Judo or Aikido, I don't entirely agree with the idea that testing something in formalized Randori proves that it "works." It may very well work in the context of Randori, just like a lot of Wing Chun works in the context of Chi Sao. But outside of those controlled situations it might not be so true. I hate to resort to talking about MMA, but that's where things are tried in a setting that is somewhat realistic. How much Judo throws do you see there? Maybe some basic leg trip/throws, but not a lot. I remember the Czech champion...Pavrula?...when he had his first MMA fight in Pride. He was touted as having won something like 300 Judo matches straight without a loss. He got his #ss handed to him in MMA!

I do agree that it is up to the individual to make a method, whether Judo or Wing Chun, work for them. But if it only works in the context of training with someone doing the same system.............

You make a valid point.
Just one thing though, you need to test yourself in a chosen system before you mix it up.
Personally, and this is just my personal opinion, I find that if I truly wanna test SPECIFIC skills I need to compete in those areas and not MMA.
If I wanna test my striking, I compete in MT.
My submission grappling in NAGA
My wrestling in wrestling.
However, if I wanna test my overall skills, its MMA, no doubt.
BUT, do notice that the best MMA all have a solid core in a speciliazied system or systems like BJJ, Sambo, MT, etc.

[aaron baum]

wise words ronin...i agree...this is one of the main ideas behind our much loved chi sau comp at the weekend..lol...gave an arena for guys to test their ability to hold their base and use their control skills to set up an attack and strike...in a more pressurised situation....might not of looked pretty to those who dont see the true skill but reality is what you look for....its a good step on the way to mma which i agree is a more rounded test...in the same way chi sau is a helpful step between form and fighting....youre right the best mma guys have a base art and then build...it helps to have a reference point within yourself which links the other arts you use...

nice discussion

best

aaron

[t_niehoff]

I agree with the original premise that started this thread. The marketing strategy in the East has tended to be "its old and authentic, its the original!" The marketing strategy in the West as tended to be "its new and improved, its the latest thing!" Both are just marketing strategies. What counts is whether something lives up to its claims....whether it works or not.

However, with no offense intended to Judo or Aikido, I don't entirely agree with the idea that testing something in formalized Randori proves that it "works." It may very well work in the context of Randori, just like a lot of Wing Chun works in the context of Chi Sao. But outside of those controlled situations it might not be so true. I hate to resort to talking about MMA, but that's where things are tried in a setting that is somewhat realistic. How much Judo throws do you see there? Maybe some basic leg trip/throws, but not a lot. I remember the Czech champion...Pavrula?...when he had his first MMA fight in Pride. He was touted as having won something like 300 Judo matches straight without a loss. He got his #ss handed to him in MMA!

I do agree that it is up to the individual to make a method, whether Judo or Wing Chun, work for them. But if it only works in the context of training with someone doing the same system.............

I think you are missing the larger picture. Judo will develop a certain skill set to a functional level (where it works) because its training method (randori) involves realistic training of that skill set. Its randori is NOT like chi sao, which isn't a realistic training method at all. Chi sao is more like aikido's randori -- where people are moving and behaving in "preprogrammed" unrealistic ways. This is why you will see judoka in MMA but not aikidoka.

That skill set (judo) will transfer to any fighting situation that permits you to use them. And you can see many examples of good judoka being able to make use of their skills in MMA. However, there is more to fighting in MMA than that particular skill set; you'll need to be well-rounded as a fighter. It's the same for everyone, including boxers, kickboxers, BJJ fighters, MT fighters, wrestlers, and WCK fighters. If they don't have other parts of their games developed through cross-training, any decent competition will keep the fight from their strength. There are all kinds of examples of champion boxers, MT fighters, BJJ fighters, etc. who go into MMA bouts with less than well-rounded games and get beaten handily. It's not their skills that don't work; it that they are lacking skills in other parts of the game.

[Ali. R]

It may very well work in the context of Randori, just like a lot of Wing Chun works in the context of Chi Sao. But outside of those controlled situations it might not be so true.

Like one said (might), that word is very powerful in this situation, because; that makes this statement just as valid: True, because that doesn’t explain the Gracie’s training methods (similar) and wining so many tournaments way before their full-contact experiences in which they dominated and still are respected for years later... I would totally agree with that word (might)...


......when he had his first MMA fight in Pride. He was touted as having won something like 300 Judo matches straight without a loss. He got his #ss handed to him in MMA!

And so did others without the same training methods lose their first fight, and… The word (might) brings me to this conclusion that your statement is more or less your opinion or speculation, and then again I might be wrong (your experiences)? And if so, please enclose your video clip… ;)


......I do agree that it is up to the individual to make a method, whether Judo or Wing Chun, work for them. But if it only works in the context of training with someone doing the same system.............

Like I said in so many words; we are all entitle too are own opinions…

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Like one said (might), that word is very powerful in this situation, because; that makes this statement just as valid: True, because that doesn’t explain the Gracie’s training methods (similar) and wining so many tournaments way before their full-contact experiences in which they dominated and still are respected for years later... I would totally agree with that word (might)...


I don't understand what you mean here...

[Ali. R]

I don't understand what you mean here...


Meaning the word (might), in the contents or terms that we are using; far as the subject at hand dealing with that quoted post that I used...

The situation could very well go both ways as demonstrated by the Gracie’s doing just the opposite as he explained as fact… Which obviously would bring anyone to the conclusion of speculation or opinion…


Ali Rahim.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Meaning the word (might), in the contents or terms that we are using; far as the subject at hand dealing with that quoted post that I used...

The situation could very well go both ways as demonstrated by the Gracie’s doing just the opposite as he explained as fact…


Ali Rahim.

That is what is confusing me, how did the Gracie's do the opposite?

[Ali. R]

That is what is confusing me, how did the Gracie's do the opposite?

In meaning that tournament fighters don’t do as well when they get in the MMA game, in which the Gracie family and many more have proven that to be a false statement on numerals occasion…


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

Ummm...I'm lost too Ali.

The gracie's stated that their art of BJJ was superior to all others, Rickson (I think) designed the ultimate fighting cage / championship to showcase and prove that claim. They proved it for years, until finally the stand up fighters finally started to cross train into grappling, which now has forced the grapplers to also cross train in standup.

Each generation of fighters is making the caliber of every fighter better and better. It's a good thing to see over the years. It literally forces the competitors (who choose to go the MMA route) to mold themselves into a more complete and functional fighter, regardless of the specific core styles.

[Ali. R]

Ummm...I'm lost too Ali.

Maybe this is way:


(I think).

It really doesn’t make a difference on what the Gracie’s said, that does not combat the fact, in which they did what he said; cannot be done…

Welcome to the switch er-rooh ...


Ali Rahim.

[SAAMAG]

Maybe this is way:



It really doesn’t make a difference on what the Gracie’s said, that does not combat the fact, in which they did what he said; cannot be done…

Welcome to the switch er-rooh ...


Ali Rahim.

Dude, for bing a black man from the U.S.A., you speak more cryptically than a 100 year old tibetan monk.

Just to set the record straight, I personaly don't like the Gracie camp's attitude in general as I think they're waaaay to arrogant, but they did expose a lot of fantasy that's been prevelant in the martial arts world for some time now.

But again, I'm not sure what you mean, what exactly are you saying, in plain english please, that the Gracie's said they could do but did not follow through with? Are you saying that because they were eventually beaten that their initial claim of superiority was false?

And what's with the switcharoo B.S. again?

[anerlich]

Not really the essence of the the OP's point (I think), but a few judo guys have done OK in MMA, e.g. Yoshida and Parisiyan. At least couple of the Gracies are Judo BB's as well.

One of my BJJ instructors collects old MA texts, and showed me a copy of the now out of print "Higher Judo", by Moshe Feldenkrais. It has lots of sweeps, triangle setups, etc. therein, certainly all the BJJ basics. The bases of Judo and BJJ are the same, as the history would indicate.

There's nothing that new in the statement quoted by the OP, though it is succinct. You have to pressure test your stuff against a resisting opponent. If it works, it works, whether its fresh as a daisy or old as the hills.

And as someone else said, "If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid".

[Edmund]

I don't entirely agree with the idea that testing something in formalized Randori proves that it "works."
..
..
..How much Judo throws do you see there? Maybe some basic leg trip/throws, but not a lot. I remember the Czech champion...Pavrula?...when he had his first MMA fight in Pride. He was touted as having won something like 300 Judo matches straight without a loss. He got his #ss handed to him in MMA!


Nastula? Terrible example.
He's faced THE top heavyweights in Pride. His first fight was against Nogueira.

You think this shows that judo doesn't work in MMA?

[Edmund]

But again, I'm not sure what you mean, what exactly are you saying, in plain english please, that the Gracie's said they could do but did not follow through with? Are you saying that because they were eventually beaten that their initial claim of superiority was false?


Seems straight forward.
Keith said tournament experience in your own style doesn't help prepare you for anything outside of those tournaments. Nastula was the example of an experienced Judoka who "failed" in MMA. (A bad example IMO. Nastula in his first MMA fight faced Nogueira who had 25+ fights.)

The Gracies are a counter-example by Ali R. Their tournament techniques worked OK.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In meaning that tournament fighters don’t do as well when they get in the MMA game, in which the Gracie family and many more have proven that to be a false statement on numerals occasion…


Ali Rahim.

Gracie JJ is NOT a tournament style, it was designed for vale tudo matches.
I recall when Royce went up against Wallid he was the underdog because of the Gracie JJ NOT being sport BJJ oriented.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Seems straight forward.
Keith said tournament experience in your own style doesn't help prepare you for anything outside of those tournaments. Nastula was the example of an experienced Judoka who "failed" in MMA. (A bad example IMO. Nastula in his first MMA fight faced Nogueira who had 25+ fights.)

The Gracies are a counter-example by Ali R. Their tournament techniques worked OK.

Again GJJ was NOT a tournament style, it was geared towards Vale Tudo matches.

[KPM]

You make a valid point.
Just one thing though, you need to test yourself in a chosen system before you mix it up.
Personally, and this is just my personal opinion, I find that if I truly wanna test SPECIFIC skills I need to compete in those areas and not MMA.
If I wanna test my striking, I compete in MT.
My submission grappling in NAGA
My wrestling in wrestling.
However, if I wanna test my overall skills, its MMA, no doubt.
BUT, do notice that the best MMA all have a solid core in a speciliazied system or systems like BJJ, Sambo, MT, etc.

---Good points! I recall reading a piece by Scott Sonnon where he pointed out that kickboxing competition trains the engagement from distance to striking position, San Da competition trains it from striking to takedowns, Sambo competition trains it from takedowns to immediate submission positions, and BJJ trains it from submission position to submission position....or something like that! :)

[KPM]

I think you are missing the larger picture. Judo will develop a certain skill set to a functional level (where it works) because its training method (randori) involves realistic training of that skill set.

----Good point.

Its randori is NOT like chi sao, which isn't a realistic training method at all. Chi sao is more like aikido's randori -- where people are moving and behaving in "preprogrammed" unrealistic ways.

----Reading Aaron Baum's post and watching clips of the recent Chi Sao competition would seem to contradict this point. I would say that Chi Sao (done properly) does represent a realistic training of THAT skill set....that skill set being the ability to react at contact distance and control the opponent enough to set up finishing moves.

[KPM]

And so did others without the same training methods lose their first fight, and… The word (might) brings me to this conclusion that your statement is more or less your opinion or speculation, and then again I might be wrong (your experiences)? And if so, please enclose your video clip… ;)

---Well of course its just my opinion! Anything posted in a public forum just represents someone's opinion. That's what makes for discussions! :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Chi-sao is a platform to role play in developing an idea not to emulate in fighting ...each partner does attack and counter attack in a endless circle until a flaw presents itself to be eliminated in the circle of random acts ...not treat it as a score or win etc... pressure testing the integrity of the system's ideas....there is a process many aren't aware of being developed through chi-sao. The previous idea of arm angles etc...elbows to control the positions so the wrists are taken out as the power points to be controlled. And the wrists of the opponent have no place to rest on any wide angles limbs or positions of the body , by constant angling to the lines of force presented before the centerline.
Because fighters seek to put their energy out at the limbs to grab strike control etc.. we strive to take advantage to these 'offerings' and how they are delivered...by over extension and over committing to us at a point we wont be ie, slipping and striking to attack etc...attempts to use a stepping in force to shove us back..not if we dont move back in a line ...are they trained equally well to fight with each arm against arms trained equally to fight er ah an isolated weak flanked arm...you get it ? ; )
What if you cant use your 2 arms at all to 'control' can your one striking arm work alone ?
does it have the training to hold a line of attack while keeping its relative flanking assault under control ...alone..in rotation to another solo striking arm ? does it require lop sao as its main controlling action ? why is that ? :D

Chi-sao is random for that very reason , no pre programed actions of a set attacker does A while B does xyz as the answer...its much simpler than that. The missing information is why people assume this to be so....

[Ali. R]

Again GJJ was NOT a tournament style, it was geared towards Vale Tudo matches.

You have too remember it was all their promotion from the start, if you dig deep, well not that deep at all, you will find that all his sons have rooms full of trophies form their fighting outing all over their home land…

From the info: that I have says: that his entire family or sons including himself in their younger stages of their training fought in amateur tournaments… Their system per-say when introduces to the world on a pro level was not consider a sport, all propaganda …

They just didn’t grow up and then started their full-contact experience with no amateur experience (if so, that speaks in volumes all by its self, dealing with wing chun and other arts that trains similar)...

Its very rare that you find a Pro with no type of amateur experience… If so, being in the business I wouldn’t promote them at all and as a trainer, I wouldn’t waste my time…


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

---Well of course its just my opinion! Anything posted in a public forum just represents someone's opinion. That's what makes for discussions! :rolleyes:

But this is what contradict your opinion… :rolleyes:


I do agree that it is up to the individual to make a method, whether Judo or Wing Chun, work for them. But if it only works in the context of training with someone doing the same system.............

But this statement bought if from opinion too fact::rolleyes:


---But if it only works in the context of training with someone doing the same system..........

[t_niehoff]

I think you are missing the larger picture. Judo will develop a certain skill set to a functional level (where it works) because its training method (randori) involves realistic training of that skill set.

----Good point.

Its randori is NOT like chi sao, which isn't a realistic training method at all. Chi sao is more like aikido's randori -- where people are moving and behaving in "preprogrammed" unrealistic ways.

----Reading Aaron Baum's post and watching clips of the recent Chi Sao competition would seem to contradict this point. I would say that Chi Sao (done properly) does represent a realistic training of THAT skill set....that skill set being the ability to react at contact distance and control the opponent enough to set up finishing moves.

Read my post on the "Chi Sao Comp" thread. I think you'll see how Aaron's POV and mine are in line.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You have too remember it was all their promotion from the start, if you dig deep, well not that deep at all, you will find that all his sons have rooms full of trophies form their fighting outing all over their home land…

From the info: that I have says: that his entire family or sons including himself in their younger stages of their training fought in amateur tournaments…

They just didn’t grow up and then started their full-contact experience with no amateur experience (if so, that speaks in volumes all by its self, dealing with wing chun and other arts that trains similar)...

Its very rare that you find a Pro with no type of amateur experience… If so, being in the business I wouldn’t promote them at all and as a trainer, I wouldn’t waste my time…


Ali Rahim.

GJJ was developed for Vale Tudo type matches, the fact that it also worked in sport matches just goes to show how effective it was.
It was developed for fighting and use in sport, not the other way around, like all the sport combat arts, they were developed for fighting and tested outside that realm in sports competition.

As for the amateur reference, of course all start off as amateurs, or at least the huge vast majority do.

[Ali. R]

As for the amateur reference, of course all start off as amateurs, or at least the huge vast majority do.

I’m glad that we are in agreement that tournament fighters can do well in a pro setting…

[sanjuro_ronin]

I’m glad that we are in agreement that tournament fighters can do well in a pro setting…

I know I did :D

[KPM]

But this is what contradict your opinion… :rolleyes:



But this statement bought if from opinion too fact::rolleyes:

I don't follow you Ali. What is your point?

[Edmund]

GJJ was developed for Vale Tudo type matches, the fact that it also worked in sport matches just goes to show how effective it was.
It was developed for fighting and use in sport, not the other way around, like all the sport combat arts, they were developed for fighting and tested outside that realm in sports competition.


That's some creative spin doctoring: "GJJ is for fighting as opposed to Judo which is just a sport and ineffective in MMA".

[SAAMAG]

That's some creative spin doctoring: "GJJ is for fighting as opposed to Judo which is just a sport and ineffective in MMA".

That's a good catch Ed. However while Judo was created by Kano as a means of sport--it's purpose was to be able to practice many of the original jujutsu nagewaza, newaza, etcetera; this was considered the next best thing to actual combat, just like today. He took out the techniques that would be too dangerous for consistent sport combat.

That said, most sport martial arts still have more martial practicality because the techniques HAVE to work on a consistent basis and present a high ratio of success. The setbacks however are the rules that are presented in the various sports which often times leads to a limited "mastery" of fighting. For example Judoka having great throws, but lack the striking ability because there's no striking in Judo competitions; or Muay thai lacking throws and submissions because there's no throws or submissions in the sport.

That's why I think the MMA guys (assuming they have some sort of core art to expand from) will be the future of sport fighting as they try to make those limitations as minimal as possible.


**Ironic side notes**:

Tonight while at Judo class, I asked the brown belt I was working with about how to tweak some of the throws so as to make them more effective/damaging. (We worked on some hip throws, the Seio Nage and another similiar one which the name escapes me right now...) He said "any of the throws will hurt on the concrete--but we don't want to change them too much because we can't do that in competition." I smiled..."I don't care about competition". This sort of gives an example of some of the limitations of competition sports.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's some creative spin doctoring: "GJJ is for fighting as opposed to Judo which is just a sport and ineffective in MMA".

I don't recall saying that at all, or how you go that from a post that says,
like all the sport combat arts, they were developed for fighting and tested outside that realm in sports competition.

Judo was developed for fighting, that is pretty common knowledge for anyone with experience in judo and judo history, the fact that it could be used for sport ( like karate later on) was a testament to Kano's understanding of what he developed.
The fact that judo people become a tad to obsessed with sport and the expense of combat effectiveness at times, is not the fault of the early pioneers that "kicked ass and took names".

[sanjuro_ronin]

He took out the techniques that would be too dangerous for consistent sport combat.

He took them out of the "sport format", they were still in judo for a very long time, guys like Maeda, Kimura and even later on guys like Kawashiki and others, still could make Judo one of the most lethal arts on the planet.

[t_niehoff]

Tonight while at Judo class, I asked the brown belt I was working with about how to tweak some of the throws so as to make them more effective/damaging. (We worked on some hip throws, the Seio Nage and another similiar one which the name escapes me right now...) He said "any of the throws will hurt on the concrete--but we don't want to change them too much because we can't do that in competition." I smiled..."I don't care about competition". This sort of gives an example of some of the limitations of competition sports.

I disagree. There are limitations to sport training, but that isn't one of them.

If you look at these things from a skill-based POV, you'll see that skill is essentially your ability to perform some result-oriented action. To develop that skill, requires you actually practice the skill by repeatedly doing it (performing it) as you intend to do it (perform it) using the desired result as a guide. So you practice your throw (the action) as you really intend to do it, with success at throwing as your guide (how you know if you are getting it right).

You can't go through that process of skill development with actions that cannot be practiced as you intend to do them (1-to-1) or without using the desired result as a guide. This dispels the fallacy behind the "deadly" technique or "unsafe" technique -- you can't really practice it and you can't use the result as your guide, so you can never really develop skill doing it.

In my view, the evidence is overwhelming that sport-type practice will best develop skills because sport focuses on performance. That's why sport adopted this training method in the first place. The chief limitation to sport is that you train sport-specific tactics (how to use those skills in the sportive context). Many BJJ instructors will only teach sport BJJ, for example. But vale tudo uses the same skills as sport but has some different tactics, specific to that context.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are some judoka's out there that will teach you "the deadly".
In the sense that they will explain to you how to make a throw more dangerous ofr example, since pretty much everyone knows how to make a choke or lock/pin more dangerous.
The vast majority of throws don't really need to be changed that much, if at all, from how they are drilled, simple because the vast majority of people don't know how to break fall, will go against the throw instead of with it and will not be falling on mats.
Nevertheless, it doesn't take much figuring out on anyone's part how to make anything more dangerous, if they want to.

Once again, the "paradox" is that, by getting highly skilled in the "non-deadly", one gains the skill level to apply "the deadly", if one needs to.
Considering the the vast majority of the "deadly" are just basics take to the extreme.

If one sees and studies the elite level of sport combat systems ( since it is readly available) you will see that, even at that level, basic wins every time.
The core moves and techniques you learn in the 1st year or 2 are the ones that nevertheless, the most effective in terms of application and results.
Advanced and elite level people just apply them better and from situations that the novice doesn't get yet due to lack of experience.

[SAAMAG]

I disagree. There are limitations to sport training, but that isn't one of them.

You disagree that the example is one that showed a limitation? I believe it showed the limitation of his mindset in that he was already preoccupied with staying in the realm of competition and staying in those rules during his practice. This particular gentleman, doesn't think in terms anything outside of the U.S open basically.

Maybe this example will make more sense; we practiced a throw there it's basically a hip throw, it starts with both wrists being held, you take one wrist and as you rotate into position pull it up and over your shoulder (which will be opposite to the uke's original side once your back is to him) and you throw. Now the way this throw was taught, there is not locking of the uke's elbow. I on the other hand was thinking that would be a good way to break the arm -- and that was the original reason why I asked the brown belt what i did. Because I wanted to see what his mindset was with things like this.

Of course the other gaps still remain, there's no disputing that sport MT/ boxing has no grappling; BJJ / Judo have no striking).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course the other gaps still remain, there's no disputing that sport MT/ boxing has no grappling; BJJ / Judo have no striking).

Not to split hairs, but Mt and Boxing do have grappling - clinch and BJJ has striking and so does Judo.
Certainly the striking in BJJ and judo is inferior, that is not their forte.
The grappling in MT is far superiour than the grappling in boxing, though both are limited and restricted.

Yes, I know, I am splitting hairs.
:D

[SAAMAG]

Not to split hairs, but Mt and Boxing do have grappling - clinch and BJJ has striking and so does Judo.
Certainly the striking in BJJ and judo is inferior, that is not their forte.
The grappling in MT is far superiour than the grappling in boxing, though both are limited and restricted.

Yes, I know, I am splitting hairs.
:D

Yep, you sure are. You get the idea though--the standing clinch however is not what I meant, I meant compared to the ground grappling; and the ground grapplers do have striking, but most places don't teach anything more than rabbit punching to get a reaction to setup for another sub or better position. Judo does have atemi--but again--sport judo doesn't. The point's still made though. Hair splitter.

Sent you a PM

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is a version on what I mentioned on the PM:

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/yamaarashi.htm

[Edmund]

I don't recall saying that at all, or how you go that from a post that says,

Judo was developed for fighting, that is pretty common knowledge for anyone with experience in judo and judo history, the fact that it could be used for sport ( like karate later on) was a testament to Kano's understanding of what he developed.
The fact that judo people become a tad to obsessed with sport and the expense of combat effectiveness at times, is not the fault of the early pioneers that "kicked ass and took names".

Keith is the one who brought up how sport tournaments are useless. (Your up against your own style only. The rules are geared towards just doing your style.) Judoka Nastula was the example he brought up. Gracies were the counter argument. Helio's sons did lots of sports BJJ and used all the same techniques in their MMA matches.

But according to you GJJ is designed for Vale Tudo (despite the techniques being all from Judo).

The point is that doing Judo tournaments makes your judo BETTER for fighting! Not worse.

You are doing your techniques against someone who knows what you're doing. Someone who's fighting you with your style is going to make you good at your style.

You learn the principles of your style.

[KPM]

Keith is the one who brought up how sport tournaments are useless.

---Hey! Wait a minute! I never said that! The premise being presented was that Judo practice represented realistic training more so than Chi Sao. I just used Nastula as an example of the idea that it ain't necessarily so!

[Edmund]

Keith is the one who brought up how sport tournaments are useless.

---Hey! Wait a minute! I never said that! The premise being presented was that Judo practice represented realistic training more so than Chi Sao. I just used Nastula as an example of the idea that it ain't necessarily so!

:) Well I can quote you directly:


I don't entirely agree with the idea that testing something in formalized Randori proves that it "works." It may very well work in the context of Randori, just like a lot of Wing Chun works in the context of Chi Sao. But outside of those controlled situations it might not be so true.

As for Nastula, I should point out again that he entered MMA as a beginner versus very experienced opponents.

He's actually won a match as well. In only his 3rd fight (with 2 losses previously) against an opponent with 9 wins and 0 losses! He destroyed the guy.

Frankly Nastula almost beat Josh Barnett in his 4th fight ever. Josh Barnett is incredibly experienced but he was getting dominated. Josh pulled off an awesome comeback and submission to win it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But according to you GJJ is designed for Vale Tudo (despite the techniques being all from Judo).

"despite" ???
How dare you !! :D


The point is that doing Judo tournaments makes your judo BETTER for fighting! Not worse.

Judo competitions and randori make you a better judoka, being a better judoka makes you a better fighter if you are a judoka, yes that is common sense.


You are doing your techniques against someone who knows what you're doing. Someone who's fighting you with your style is going to make you good at your style.


Pros and Cons that go with that.

[KPM]

:) Well I can quote you directly:

---Yes! Thanks! Nowhere there do I say or even suggest that sport tournaments are useless!


As for Nastula, I should point out again that he entered MMA as a beginner versus very experienced opponents.

---And I should point out again that after winning something like 300 Judo matches straight....he lost when he competed outside the context of Judo. Therefore his Judo Randori in itself didn't seem to prepare him for EVERY situation.
So was it realistic? He faced someone that wasn't responding like a Judo player....and he lost. Again....this isn't and wasn't meant as a knock against Judo or Nastula. The premise originally presented was that Judo Randori training was more realistic and more useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao training. It ain't necessarily so! :)

[SAAMAG]

:) Well I can quote you directly:

---Yes! Thanks! Nowhere there do I say or even suggest that sport tournaments are useless!


As for Nastula, I should point out again that he entered MMA as a beginner versus very experienced opponents.

---And I should point out again that after winning something like 300 Judo matches straight....he lost when he competed outside the context of Judo. Therefore his Judo Randori in itself didn't seem to prepare him for EVERY situation.
So was it realistic? He faced someone that wasn't responding like a Judo player....and he lost. Again....this isn't and wasn't meant as a knock against Judo or Nastula. The premise originally presented was that Judo Randori training was more realistic and more useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao training. It ain't necessarily so! :)

Well...turn it around, how do you think a wing chun person with 300 chi sao matches would have done? Probably wouldn't have lasted a microsecond, same as how most wing chun guys have performed in MMA. So how does that look for wing chun as a whole?

I say this because most of the responses to this will be soimething like "well those guys weren't good at wing chun" or "the rules don't lend themselves well to wing chun" or whatever. The fact of the matter is, MMA is the closest thing to real fighting one can get to without really fighting on the street. The rules are so minimal that they won't make a difference to any style that enters. So what's left then?

The martial artist themselves. That is the single most important determinant of one's success or failure in a fight. Their conditioning, and training methods are more important than that style itself, though the style's techniques do play a role as well as there are some that are simply not condusive for fighting. But no matter what style it is; if you're fighting someone that eclipses you in skill level and experience, you're more than likely going to lose that bout.

[KPM]

Well...turn it around, how do you think a wing chun person with 300 chi sao matches would have done? Probably wouldn't have lasted a microsecond, same as how most wing chun guys have performed in MMA. So how does that look for wing chun as a whole?



----Let me try and explain it AGAIN! The Wing Chun guy wouldn't have done any better than Nastula. AGAIN.....my point was and is that Judo Randori was held up as a more realistic and useful training than Chi Sao. I simply used Nastula as an example of a guy who was at the top of his game in Judo and got beat handily in MMA.....which questions the premise that Judo Randori is any more realistic or useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao. Geez.....

[SAAMAG]

Don't get all flustered KPM, the rest of the post was an elaboration as to why I posed that question in the beginning...you'd seen then that was more of a rhetorical question to setup the explanation that it wasn't so much the randori that failed him, but that he was simply outclassed by someone who was better and had more experience.

[Edmund]

And I should point out again that after winning something like 300 Judo matches straight....he lost when he competed outside the context of Judo. Therefore his Judo Randori in itself didn't seem to prepare him for EVERY situation.

Keith,

Having 300 Judo matches or not, it was still Nastula's FIRST MMA match against Nogueira who had 25+ fights!

That is a massive difference in experience. Yet your attitude is that he should win it! If he went against another fighter with 0 fights, Nastula probably would have won easily.

Just doing Judo Randori to prepare for a MMA match would be completely inadequate AND I SERIOUSLY DOUBT NASTULA PREPARED LIKE THAT!

You'd be a **** fool not to spar in a MMA way when you have an MMA match coming up! JEEZ


The premise originally presented was that Judo Randori training was more realistic and more useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao training.

Don't put stupid Terence arguments on my plate but the difference is that WC is far more than Chi sao. Judo randori you practice pretty much every decent technique in Judo.

[t_niehoff]

----Let me try and explain it AGAIN! The Wing Chun guy wouldn't have done any better than Nastula. AGAIN.....my point was and is that Judo Randori was held up as a more realistic and useful training than Chi Sao. I simply used Nastula as an example of a guy who was at the top of his game in Judo and got beat handily in MMA.....which questions the premise that Judo Randori is any more realistic or useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao. Geez.....

Keith, you are comparing apples and oranges.

How is that any different than a really good boxer getting in and fighting MMA and losing handily? It's not because boxing doesn't develop realistic skills (we know it does). It is because there are more skills you need to fight MMA with than merely striking skills,and the boxer didn't have those other skills developed to the same degree as the MMA fighter he faced. Same with judo.

You can see that there are judo fighters that take their judo, developed from randori, and are able to use it in fighting. Karo Parysian, for example, has some wicked throws he uses well in MMA, and has a book out on the subject. Sambo, which is essentially judo-based (as is BJJ), trains in the same way. Now, not everything judo or sambo does makes the shift from the sport to the cage since the cloth is missing in MMA.

Your mistake is that you think it is training with a "resisting" opponent -- and both randori and chi sao are similar in that they are training with a resisting opponent -- is what produces realsitc results. But there is another component: it is that your opponent is trying to resist you in realistic ways. When you grab hold of someone and try to throw them, it will "look" like randori because people in randori are resisting realistically. Unlike chi sao, which if you take someone and put them in bridge contact and have them fight, won't "look" like chi sao. And that's because whenpeople playu chi sao they don't act, move, react, like "real" people. No one you everfight will respond, act, move, etc., like a a WCK chi sao player. Ever. For example, people won't try to stick, they won't use straight punches, they won't move like a WCK person, instead they'll grab you, they'll shoot, they'll try to run over you, they'll pummel in, etc. When you do chi sao, you are "training" against unrealistic responses. So all you can do is develop an unrealsitic set of "skills."

[KPM]

Having 300 Judo matches or not, it was still Nastula's FIRST MMA match against Nogueira who had 25+ fights!

---Let me say again....Geez!....... And I'm not flustered. You guys just don't seem to get it! :(

That is a massive difference in experience. Yet your attitude is that he should win it! If he went against another fighter with 0 fights, Nastula probably would have won easily.

----Nastula had extensive experience in Judo Randori and tournaments. Nogiera had extensive experience in MMA training and competition. Take Nastula out of the context of Judo and he didn't do so well. Take Nogiera out of the context of MMA and put him in a Judo match and he may not do so well either. So I will say once again: .....my point was and is that Judo Randori was held up as a more realistic and useful training than Chi Sao. I simply used Nastula as an example of a guy who was at the top of his game in Judo and got beat handily in MMA.....which questions the premise that Judo Randori is any more realistic or useful than Wing Chun Chi Sao.



Just doing Judo Randori to prepare for a MMA match would be completely inadequate

---Exactly! As I have said.....both Judo Randori and Wing Chun Chi Sao are intended to develop a very specific skill set.



AND I SERIOUSLY DOUBT NASTULA PREPARED LIKE THAT!

---Here is where you may be wrong. I think that Nastula DID prepare like that, thinking as has been expressed on this thread that Judo Randori was realistic and effective training for all kinds of fighting. When he discovered that wasn't the case in his first match with Nogiera, he very likely went back to the gym and began to change and expand his training methods. Then he came back and started to win....as you have pointed out!!



Don't put stupid Terence arguments on my plate but the difference is that WC is far more than Chi sao. Judo randori you practice pretty much every decent technique in Judo.

---What do you mean? I've never said that Chi Sao was the be all and end all of Wing Chun training! And Terence was one of the guys saying that Judo Randori was good preparation for fighting and that Chi Sao was not. I've just been trying to point out that Randori has its limits as well and may not be all that different from Chi Sao....at least Chi Sao done as something more than "patty cakes."

[KPM]

Your mistake is that you think it is training with a "resisting" opponent -- and both randori and chi sao are similar in that they are training with a resisting opponent -- is what produces realsitc results. But there is another component: it is that your opponent is trying to resist you in realistic ways. When you grab hold of someone and try to throw them, it will "look" like randori because people in randori are resisting realistically. Unlike chi sao, which if you take someone and put them in bridge contact and have them fight, won't "look" like chi sao. And that's because whenpeople playu chi sao they don't act, move, react, like "real" people. No one you everfight will respond, act, move, etc., like a a WCK chi sao player. Ever. For example, people won't try to stick, they won't use straight punches, they won't move like a WCK person, instead they'll grab you, they'll shoot, they'll try to run over you, they'll pummel in, etc. When you do chi sao, you are "training" against unrealistic responses. So all you can do is develop an unrealsitic set of "skills."

---Hey Terence!
Thanks for elaborating on your point. I see what you are saying. Chi Sao is much more "structured" than Judo Randori, which makes it one step further removed from reality. But perhaps part of the problem is the duration of the interaction being trained. When Judo players "come to grips" in Randori, the interaction being trained can last for awhile as they try to get the advantage over the other person. So the responses and reactions are more realistic. But in Chi Sao, the duration of interaction actually being trained is very short. It is just that instance when the arms cross and you have the opportunity to "stick". Its not that the real Chi Sao skill being sought doesn't transfer over to fighting, its just that that skill isn't the "patty cakes" we see so often. That skill is the ability to immediately sense and respond to the opponent's force upon establishing a "bridge." And THAT happens very quickly and then it passes. So in order to put something that happens so quickly into a drill, the drill must be structured to allow for those opportunities and emphasize the range at which they occur. So the structure itself creates a situation where the opponent/partner is not responding in exactly a "realistic" fashion, but he IS providing contact and energy along various lines that the other person must sense and react to. That ability to sense and react is the skill being trained, regardless of what the other person is doing to bring out those reactions. But I agree with you that without the context of sparring/fighting informing what is going on in Chi Sao it loses its focus and intent and becomes more and more "Wing Chun specific" and a game of "patty cakes."

[k gledhill]

Chi-sao is misunderstood .

[Edmund]

---Here is where you may be wrong. I think that Nastula DID prepare like that, thinking as has been expressed on this thread that Judo Randori was realistic and effective training for all kinds of fighting. When he discovered that wasn't the case in his first match with Nogiera, he very likely went back to the gym and began to change and expand his training methods. Then he came back and started to win....as you have pointed out!!


I think you should watch the match. He was ground and pounding for half the match. He showed the same skills as a lot of MMA people. He lost because he gassed late in the 10 minute round. He didn't have the match experience of Nogueira.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xyuhi_minotauro-nogueira-vs-pavel-nastula_extreme

You can still see his judo skills though.
He did well for his first fight. He reversed Nogueira on the ground a few times.



---What do you mean? I've never said that Chi Sao was the be all and end all of Wing Chun training! And Terence was one of the guys saying that Judo Randori was good preparation for fighting and that Chi Sao was not. I've just been trying to point out that Randori has its limits as well and may not be all that different from Chi Sao....at least Chi Sao done as something more than "patty cakes."

You can't do just Judo Randori to prepare for a MMA match. I don't think even Terence said anything that lame.

[KPM]

You can't do just Judo Randori to prepare for a MMA match. I don't think even Terence said anything that lame.

And neither did I!