View Full Version : a clip to discuss
aaron baum
05-01-2008, 01:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6KjJVA_7Lo&feature=related
found this...
best
aaron
Dan_chi_sau
05-01-2008, 03:18 PM
interesting clip, bit dark to tell but wasn't for me. Most of it seemed to go against wing chun principles e.g. chasing hands, not the body. They mostly seem to be hand wrestling. IMO only the guy in glasses about midway actually looked like he had the intent to hit.
Also the idea of 'when hand is free, strike' went out the window a bit. Due to all the hand chasing there weren't many free hands, energy all over the place, about a minute or so into it one guys hands ping off to the side, the other guy see's the gap, pauses for a split second, then holds out a nice tan sau.
A few times, some of the guys seemed to get rocked back at shoulder level, suggesting that they are using muscle power or wrong angles, which gets fed back into their shoulder, making them rock back. No use of root.
And my last observation, one guy laps near the end, big open gap upstairs, and as he strikes he leans right back. Even I'd be happy to be hit like that.
Like i said, not for me. But then as people keep quite rightly pointing out, you cant tell too much from a video. Looks like it makes a great drinking game, not much use in a fight.
chusauli
05-01-2008, 03:30 PM
Looks like YKS/SN or Mai Gai Wong WCK of sorts.
Too much ladder climbing and driving without insurance. Very little power coming from the horse. Little control. Distance wrong to apply the WCK.
Quite typical stuff when I was growing up.
Looks like YKS/SN or Mai Gai Wong WCK of sorts.
Too much ladder climbing and driving without insurance. Very little power coming from the horse. Little control. Distance wrong to apply the WCK.
Quite typical stuff when I was growing up.
---I think there were several lineages represented. I think I recognized some of those guys from clips of the opening of the Yip Man Tong. None of them seemed to have a strong horse or good forward pressure. A lot of it was the "Chi Sao Patty-cake" that Terence has been writing against.
Mike Sheng
05-01-2008, 10:44 PM
Too much hand chasing and weak stances.
Mainly, the people featured on this vids are Mak Yiu Ming's students - at the end of the clip, he's the one demonstrating som saan sau techniques in a point format.
Lineage wise, he claims to be of Cheung Bo descent - although this is probably arguable (Cheung Bo style supposedly doesn't have SNT, CK, etc. and MYM sifu does...)
I'd say the Wing Chun Kuen displayed there is more of Foshan style flavour than anything else - although apparently in modern days the lines as to what is what are being blurred.
No distinct SN/YKS and definately no MGW style there... IMO, of course :)
Other than that, I agree completely with Chusaulei's assesment of the situation.
IMO this is a great example of what happens when chi-sau becomes competitive - a terrible mess.
Regardless of lineage...
[QUOTE=JLQ;858202]Mainly, the people featured on this vids are Mak Yiu Ming's students - at the end of the clip, he's the one demonstrating som saan sau techniques in a point format.
QUOTE]
Yeah. He is one of them that I recognized. I just couldn't remember his name.
Liddel
05-02-2008, 03:38 PM
IMO this is what happens when people forget about what they are doing and where it fits into fighting. (if that is indeed thier purpose :o )
Its elevating chi sao into almost sparring which if you and a partner have an understanding thats where it could go, it can become a useful thing. It can bridge ranges together into one training platform if done correctly.
But here i see guys getting more intense and remaining in the chi sao platform where it becomes chasing hands and patty cake.
The structure and behaviour is different to that of my VT so i wont comment...but
If this happened in a fight where a minor pushing incident bacame more and more heated it would right away go to blows once someone upped the game like that.....
One can say chi sao doesnt provide a realistic training platform....
one could also say a hammer is a useless tool, if your trying to tighten a screw :rolleyes:
DREW
Matrix
05-03-2008, 06:05 AM
IMO this is what happens when people forget about what they are doing and where it fits into fighting. (if that is indeed thier purpose :o )
Its elevating chi sao into almost sparring which if you and a partner have an understanding thats where it could go, it can become a useful thing. It can bridge ranges together into one training platform if done correctly.DREW,
I agree with this point of view. I would just add that I think sparring should remain as sparring, turning chi sao into a sparring defeats the purpose of the drill. Having said that, the clips that Alan Orr has on a recent 'chi sao competition' ( is that an oxymoron?;)) were quite good. I think Aaron did a great job of avoiding the usual shoving match and turning it into more of a sparring action. I know some purists may object, but I liked it.
Cheers,
Bill
k gledhill
05-03-2008, 08:20 AM
Guys using wrists as the 'platform' for delivering force and resting it , leads to arm chasing , simply to place the force on the contact point ...chase, search...if the force is displaced by the other they aren't controlling their own arms and get taken with the force :D
no idea of elbow position recovery for follow ups , follow up whats that ? I'm just going to stick wherever that arm goes :o
classic ugly ;)
the energy is at the wrists no thought for elbow control/arm alignment drills for free-fighting.
In a fight chi-sao is a point in space we enter angles offered by the the opponent's movement as we attack them. It isn't the place we go to and stay to adopt the facing drill as we see here.
chi-sao should be allowing you to hit another in 1-3 moves as you enter on them from space/face off .
Not centerline to centerline lead legs , going back and forth.
Play a game without a goal behind it and the game becomes the goal. "You cant touch me" :rolleyes:
Imagine attacking from space ...you strike with all your force at the wrist relying on the contact you expect to support you ...what if the guy your fighting knows this and intentionally offers arms and removes them suddenly ?
what happens to you ? thats right :D you are exposed as an arm chaser :eek:
Are you attacking with both arms extended forwards as the drill front and center with force at the wrists seeking an arm to place the 'controlling force' ?
How are you taking the fight to the guy with energy at the wrists from hours of wristing practice ?
what are you developing if you are , have been all this time ?
Is your mind wrapped up in feeling things ?
Liddel
05-03-2008, 05:25 PM
DREW,
I agree with this point of view. I would just add that I think sparring should remain as sparring, turning chi sao into sparring defeats the purpose of the drill.
Hey Bill, interesting point...
Depends on what stage your at :rolleyes:.
Sparring and Chi Sao should stay seperate when your learning IMO, but IME there is no downside to melding platforms together once you have a stable level of VT.
I should make it clear that im talking about free flowing chi sao or Gor Sao as some call it, so its already almost close range sparring anyway...its not that much a stretch IMO.
Im not reffering to Chi Dan Sao or Poon Sao where it is a drill with repeated actions.
All it does it bridge between contact and non contact which IMO makes it more akin to reality and can make someone more able to force thier VT game on a non VT fighter.
DREW
I agree with Drew. Chi Sao is intended to train a very specific skill set. That is a skill set that should be applied in sparring, or the training is pointless. So it makes sense to begin to meld Chi Sao and sparring as you reach a certain level in the training.
Ultimatewingchun
05-05-2008, 10:09 AM
Meaningless chi sao vid. Much ado about nothing. Now if they were actually going for strikes to hard targets - and threw in some kicking - then maybe you'd have something worth watching. ;)
Oh, but wait...then they'd be sparring. :D
Matrix
05-05-2008, 05:24 PM
Depends on what stage your at :rolleyes:.
Sparring and Chi Sao should stay seperate when your learning IMO, but IME there is no downside to melding platforms together once you have a stable level of VT.
DREW,
Sure, as long as both parties understand the name of the game and are capable of playing at that level. The purpose of the drill is to enhance your skills. On youtube you often see 'senior' people turning chi sao into their personal ego trip - pushing around some clueless newbie who's just trying to hang on for dear life. I'm not a fan of that kind of activity. Of course that happens in sparring too. :rolleyes:
Bill
Matrix
05-05-2008, 05:25 PM
Meaningless chi sao vid. It can always serve as a bad example. ;)
Bill
Liddel
05-05-2008, 06:13 PM
DREW,
Sure, as long as both parties understand the name of the game and are capable of playing at that level. The purpose of the drill is to enhance your skills. On youtube you often see 'senior' people turning chi sao into their personal ego trip - pushing around some clueless newbie who's just trying to hang on for dear life. I'm not a fan of that kind of activity. Of course that happens in sparring too. :rolleyes:
Bill
Thats true Bill, it often says to me 'showoff ' or even 'poor teaching'.
:p
DREW
LoneTiger108
05-06-2008, 03:58 AM
Mainly, the people featured on this vids are Mak Yiu Ming's students - at the end of the clip, he's the one demonstrating som saan sau techniques in a point format.
Lineage wise, he claims to be of Cheung Bo descent - although this is probably arguable (Cheung Bo style supposedly doesn't have SNT, CK, etc. and MYM sifu does...)
I'd say the Wing Chun Kuen displayed there is more of Foshan style flavour than anything else - although apparently in modern days the lines as to what is what are being blurred.
Correct about the lineage LQ, definately MYM from Foshan. I have to say though, that this looks like a 'playing' session where strikes are forbidden (possibly) and the 'platform' is worked on. This platform is similar to the Lee Shing Huen Chisau and Looksau combined.
I actually met all these guys at the Ip Man Tong opening and I have to say, they were a refreshing group who really commit themselves to their ideals, as everyone else does. Not to mention, most had arms of steel, and although this type of interaction looks soft they can turn on the power striking anytime.
Totally different approach to the common Ip Man HK lineage and shouldn't be brushed aside so quickly imo. Most of what I saw seemed to have a BJ influence, including the schools salutation. The Foshan boys just missed out on the HK Chisau 'refinement', of which they refer to as Ip Mans 'Fast Hands'...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZc0Lyw385U&feature=related
Lone Tiger,
Agreed - it should'nt be brushed of so quickly...
Ideas and ideals vary greatly from on petal of the WCK flower to the other.
In spite of what criticism one could level on these guys, they seem to be pretty consistent winners at many "chi-sau" competitions in Mainland China - which are more like pushing matches, it appears. In this light, stating that these guys have no power is not a fair assessment, IMO.
regards
Ultimatewingchun
05-06-2008, 07:21 AM
But chi sao "competitions" prove what, in the final scheme of things?
It seems to me that you get 10 times more bang for your buck doing sparring/sparring competitions than what you can get out of all the time put into preparing for and engaging in chi sao competitions.
Don't get me wrong - there's lots to be learned from frequent chi sao. But in the final analysis - let's not forget that it's just a limited drill.
Sparring is much more all-encompasing and therefore more realistic and valuable.
Ultimatewingchun,
I agree with you - totally and absolutetly :)
Chi-sau is indeed a very limited drill - and chi-sau competitions prove nothing...
To place myself in the continuum of opinions on the value of chi-sau(competition), I side with the people who believe that chi-sau is not to be confused with some sort of sparring type drill.
Thus I find chi-sau competions of all ilks rather non-sensical.
If you wish to improve your sparring skills - sparring is the way to go, not some strange hybrid of drill/exercise/sparring with awkward and limiting rules.
The recent SENI competition is a very good example of this - granted, it is a laudable attempt to make a bridge between theory and practice to validate and justify their training methods, but as someone else put it in another thread, it is "another thing we don't need". Even though certain people like to claim this, it doesn't showcase the chi-sau derived skills of structure, etc. What we see is, at best some clinch work, that is much better developed using the thai-clinching and greco roman style wrestling tie-ups. For this, chi-sau is an inferior method - IMO, no offense.
Although I don't like the competition format and don't believe it shows what it is supposed to - if I understood the purpose correctly, of course -, I am a believer in sparring and live combat as essential training tools to develop practical fighting skills.
There are other ways to progressively build up the students to engage in full-contact (even no rules) fights. Why reinvent the wheel?
I can see why the point I was trying to make wrt the chi-sau competition, my train of thought may not have been quite clear.
I meant to point out that they do have power if not, they wouldn't be succesful in a competition format where pushing is the winning strategy.
That's all.
:)
sanjuro_ronin
05-06-2008, 10:04 AM
One thing that the competition did show is that many people have different views of what chi sao is suppose to do and look like against a resisting opponent.
Edmund
05-06-2008, 06:19 PM
If you wish to improve your sparring skills - sparring is the way to go, not some strange hybrid of drill/exercise/sparring with awkward and limiting rules.
The recent SENI competition is a very good example of this - granted, it is a laudable attempt to make a bridge between theory and practice to validate and justify their training methods, but as someone else put it in another thread, it is "another thing we don't need". Even though certain people like to claim this, it doesn't showcase the chi-sau derived skills of structure, etc. What we see is, at best some clinch work, that is much better developed using the thai-clinching and greco roman style wrestling tie-ups. For this, chi-sau is an inferior method - IMO, no offense.
Although I don't like the competition format and don't believe it shows what it is supposed to ....
What do you believe it should show then?
And why would sparring help develop this more than chi sao?
Sparring encompasses more varieties of situations. They would be at chi sao range less often. If partners are starting striking at each other from a pre-contact range, how can they practice contact skills?
If you believe the SENI comp showed "another thing you don't need", your alternative (sparring) would not show more chi-sao derived structure because there's no requirement to be in the range of chi sao.
The thai clinching drill is a limited drill also. It does not encompass all aspects of MT. Greco pummeling is a limited drill. It does not encompass all the aspects of GR wrestling. Yet they manage to become better at this aspect of their arts via their limited drills.
The SENI comp rules allowed clinching and you saw people realistically applying it. The SENI rules didn't prevent people from doing chi sao derived structure, did it?
It seems like you're saying, "Could you stop clinching me so I can showcase my chi sao skills?"
In sparring, it's not going to be easier. People will be throwing big kicks and ducking and diving.
Matrix
05-06-2008, 07:39 PM
Thats true Bill, it often says to me 'showoff ' or even 'poor teaching'.
:p
DREWHey DREW,
I would say both. Unfortunately it's probably more common than I would care to know about.
Bill
Edmund,
reading my previous post, I fail to see how one could possibly come to your conclusion as to what I am trying to say?
Nevermind, though - it furthers the discussion, so all is good :)
I believe that Mr. Orr stated in one of his posts, that the idea behind this particular format was to demonstrate WCK chi-sau skills under pressure...
I may have misunderstood this, of course.
For any exercise or drill to have validity in the overall scheme of things, it must cultivate skills and attributes that relate to fighting - a drill for the sake of the drill shouldn't exist in any art that claims combat efficient training.
Since the skills chisau is supposed to cultivate should express themselves in free fighting, I see no better way than to train them under pressure in a free fighting format - keyword is transferability.
Obviously, Thai-clincing and Greco-roman tie-ups are also limited drills - my point was that to succeed at the SENI comp, it would have been more efficient to train in these drills than chi-sau.
To make things clear, I believe chi-sau is a skill development tool at the same level as the aforementioned drills - why make a competition of such a drill? You don't see competitions specifically geared towards showcasing clinching or tie-up skills under pressure... The skills these drills develop are tried holistically, i.e. in the actual fight.
Do you see chi-sau as something that happens in certain range? Sort of like "the trapping range" of JKD? I don't, as I understand it there is just bridge and no bridge - long, short, no matter. Chi-sau teaches (as I currently understand it) skills that come in handy when bridging, this is possible at almost any fighting range. By the same token, it is also possible to disengage, to break contact, at any range where bridging is possible. In the SENI clips you mainly see two guys exchanging blows, one guy clinching the opponent's head, kneeing him, or grabbing with one hand "uppercutting" with the other. What we see is free hitting, breaking contact, no need for chi-sau skills.
This doesn't showcase any more of the specific chi-sau skills than the "milling", all-out fighting, that was practiced ardously in the European Wing Tsun schools of Keith Kernspecht in the eighties - I am sure this group wasn't the only one incorporating this type of fighting in their training. S
So, if the purpose is to test something under realistic circumstances, why not do it in a setting in which the developed skills are supposed to be used.
To me a competition specifically for chi-sau under realistic conditions is just as non-sensical as a competition between Western boxers to showcase the skills/attributes developed by skipping under realistic conditions - oh, wait that would be the actual sparring or boxing match, wouldn't it? ;)
regards
Edmund
05-07-2008, 03:41 PM
For any exercise or drill to have validity in the overall scheme of things, it must cultivate skills and attributes that relate to fighting - a drill for the sake of the drill shouldn't exist in any art that claims combat efficient training.
Since the skills chisau is supposed to cultivate should express themselves in free fighting, I see no better way than to train them under pressure in a free fighting format - keyword is transferability.
Obviously, Thai-clincing and Greco-roman tie-ups are also limited drills - my point was that to succeed at the SENI comp, it would have been more efficient to train in these drills than chi-sau.
To make things clear, I believe chi-sau is a skill development tool at the same level as the aforementioned drills - why make a competition of such a drill? You don't see competitions specifically geared towards showcasing clinching or tie-up skills under pressure... The skills these drills develop are tried holistically, i.e. in the actual fight.
I think the point of making a comp is to attempt to use those skills in a competitive environment. The comp provides resistance! You can't have a drill where the partner is just complying with your techniques.
In clinching drills the partner doesn't comply. That's why they can work in real situations.
Making a comp out of it is just formalizing the parameters of the chi sao drill. If you can't apply your skills in a non-compliant drill/comp, then it's going to go even worse in free fighting.
Do you see chi-sau as something that happens in certain range? Sort of like "the trapping range" of JKD? I don't, as I understand it there is just bridge and no bridge - long, short, no matter. Chi-sau teaches (as I currently understand it) skills that come in handy when bridging, this is possible at almost any fighting range. By the same token, it is also possible to disengage, to break contact, at any range where bridging is possible. In the SENI clips you mainly see two guys exchanging blows, one guy clinching the opponent's head, kneeing him, or grabbing with one hand "uppercutting" with the other. What we see is free hitting, breaking contact, no need for chi-sau skills.
This doesn't showcase any more of the specific chi-sau skills than the "milling", all-out fighting, that was practiced ardously in the European Wing Tsun schools of Keith Kernspecht in the eighties - I am sure this group wasn't the only one incorporating this type of fighting in their training. S
So, if the purpose is to test something under realistic circumstances, why not do it in a setting in which the developed skills are supposed to be used.
To me a competition specifically for chi-sau under realistic conditions is just as non-sensical as a competition between Western boxers to showcase the skills/attributes developed by skipping under realistic conditions - oh, wait that would be the actual sparring or boxing match, wouldn't it? ;)
I got nothing against sparring (Please spar) but you are going to see even less chi sao skills in sparring than you would in the chi sao comp. They're still going to allow clinching the head if it's decent rules so it's not changing anything. It's allowing an even wider range of techniques ON TOP OF THAT.
They were basically sparring in the European WT things that you don't like either! It didn't show what you wanted and that was the sparring format that you feel is better for chi sao skills. Plenty of free hitting!
Look if one guy is grabbing and kneeing, that's realistic. Tough luck that you aren't making arm to arm contact. You can't expect him not to do that.
Edmund,
either you don't WANT to understand my point or i must express it very badly ;)
I feel, I have explained my view on things quite clearly and have a hard time following the tangents you are running off on, no offense.
One last try: if your aim is to specifially showcase chi-sau skills, you should choose a format that facilitates this - not one that allows you to employ strategies where chi-sau skills don't come into play. Since the typical SENI engagement more time is spent on grabbing on to something and kneeing punching - this is more a challenge of clinchig skills than anything else. If the goal is to focus on chi-sau, even under pressure you should stick to the chi-sau format and work it with power, and full contact stricking.
Applying it, "as it is used in fighting", the best thing is just to fight.
BTW - I don't know how you practice chi-sau, but the way we do it (at a certain level) nothing is prearranged and there is no compliance - the same as you would work the various clinching drills. Of course, to work on specific skills, you need to stay within a certain framework.
No point in my trying to explain further, it has all been said already.
:)
regards
Edmund
05-08-2008, 06:07 AM
Edmund,
either you don't WANT to understand my point or i must express it very badly ;)
I feel, I have explained my view on things quite clearly and have a hard time following the tangents you are running off on, no offense.
One last try: if your aim is to specifially showcase chi-sau skills, you should choose a format that facilitates this - not one that allows you to employ strategies where chi-sau skills don't come into play. Since the typical SENI engagement more time is spent on grabbing on to something and kneeing punching - this is more a challenge of clinchig skills than anything else. If the goal is to focus on chi-sau, even under pressure you should stick to the chi-sau format and work it with power, and full contact stricking.
I'm replying directly to what you've written. Could you reply to questions I ask?
What is the format you should stick to *exactly*?
You asked why make a comp out of a drill. I said, it's formalizing the non-complying aspect of it.
You critiqued the SENI comp format and said "it didn't show what it was supposed to". Do you have an alternative format that you can explain properly?
What do you believe your format would show?
You said above you should not allow "strategies where chi-sau skills don't come into play". I seriously disagree. If it's a real strategy that can happen when 2 people are in contact then it would be unrealistic to not allow it.
I believe the questions you ask have been answered already quite clearly in what I wrote previously.
Let's just assume your failing to understand my points is a language thing - as you know, this isn't my native tongue :)
regards
David Jamieson
05-08-2008, 07:15 AM
why don't they just hit each other already?
couch
05-08-2008, 07:29 AM
Hey DREW,
I would say both. Unfortunately it's probably more common than I would care to know about.
Bill
I think the Sifu-itis gets the best of them. Everyone is human and anyone could hit anyone an any given day. I think the MMA fights have proven this.
If I'm showing something to someone and get popped in the face they usually apologize profusely and say "I shouldn't hit the person who could kick my ..." I usually laugh tell them that I'm human and that I make mistakes. And perhaps I should be thanking THEM because they exposed a fault on my part.
Chi Sau is a 'somewhat' cooperative IMO. Your partner is doing the same thing as you're doing for them: exposing weaknesses.
Too often on the ol' Youtube, you see some beginner getting pummeled with elbows and knees as they groan in pain. Too bad, too sad.
Best,
Kenton
Hey JLQ!
either you don't WANT to understand my point or i must express it very badly ;)
---I understand what you are saying. But Ed does seem to have had a reading comprehension problem recently on another thread. :)
One last try: if your aim is to specifially showcase chi-sau skills, you should choose a format that facilitates this - not one that allows you to employ strategies where chi-sau skills don't come into play. Since the typical SENI engagement more time is spent on grabbing on to something and kneeing punching - this is more a challenge of clinchig skills than anything else. If the goal is to focus on chi-sau, even under pressure you should stick to the chi-sau format and work it with power, and full contact stricking.
---I agree to an extent. On the other thread Judo Randori was compared to Chi Sao and held out as a more realistic drill. But Judo Randori doesn't allow "kickboxing." It is designed to emphasize and develop skills in a certain range of fighting. Same with Chi Sao. There has to be some structure and limits in a competitive Chi Sao format to keep it as "Chi Sao" rather than just out and out sparring. However, while not perfect, the SENI competition came pretty close to this in my opinion. I don't think you can exclude grapping and clinching in a Chi Sao competition because these are common responses at this range. You saw a lot of clinch work in the video footage simply because Aaron Baum's partner wasn't able to use his Chi Sao structure to stop Aaron from coming in on him.
Applying it, "as it is used in fighting", the best thing is just to fight.
---I agree. But the skills developed in Chi Sao have to transfer over to a fight situation or there is no point in training Chi Sao. Putting Chi Sao into a competitive format is a good way to work on the direct transferance of those skills.
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