Is Ng Family Style real?

[mkriii]

Oh its real, its darn real. :D I got to thinking and I thought since the Shaolin Do guys have a thread thats pretty much occupied by Shaolin Do students why not start a thread for all the students of Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng and Ng Family Style Kung Fu. If anyone here is or was a student of GM Ng's or a student of one of his students please introduce yourself and tell a little about yourself or say whatever you want.

I'll start by telling my name is Mark R. and I studied at Four Seasons Kung Fu Academy back in the mid to late 80's here in Lexington which is the school GM Ng owned. I trained there for almost 3 years before I left and went to Master John Dufresne's school (Dufresne's International Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy) where I recieved my black sash. Master Dufresne is a 9th level black sash under Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng. Sifu Dufresne moved back to Boston about 5 years ago but I still keep in touch with him through e-mails and he comes down this way every so often to do seminars, etc...

[kwaichang]

he prob stole all his stuff from SD then opened his school. So no it is not real KC

[shadowlin]

what is the point of this thread? KC, that wasn't very friendly :cool:

[kwaichang]

How friendly has mkriii been ???? Just thought he would like a taste of his own medicin for a while KC

[tattooedmonk]

What makes it real??

[Judge Pen]

I've been pretty friendly lately. I gave some tips to Shaolinwookie on how to do a kip up with no hands. And I've not bashed SD lately. :)




Now I guess I'll have to start bashing again due to Kwaichang yang's statement. The reason that Grandmaster Ng's style is real is because it was used by my sifu and his friend to kick about 8 or 9 SD students a$$ at a tournament back in the 80's when they were jumped by them at a team sparring division at Lexington Catholic. It's funny how those that were around way back then forget so easily. If Ng style kicked thier a$$ then it must be real. Now, I'll go back to being nice if everyone else will. If not then I'll break mid-evil. :D

The purpose of this thread was to have a place for Ng's students to go and talk about whatever, kinda like what all you SD people do.

The 80s tournament again. :rolleyes: I preferred the respectful communications I had with your teacher on that topic. I've spoken to at least three different eye-witness accounts of that event, and it differs from person to person. But as I'm certain that you and I weren't eye-witneeses, we have nothing that we can contribute toward that dead-end discussion.

As for KC, I beleive what's good for the goose is good for the gander. While many SD people do use that thread to communicate and keep in touch, its peppered with comments from people just like you that like to stir things up. You should expect nothing less about Ng here.

As for the topic, I'm sure its real too. I enjoyed seeing some of the clips of your teacher, but I'll confess I have no idea what form or what style he was performing (you know the one with all the stomping). He showed excellent balance, flexibilty, and body control. Care to tell us what for that was, what system its from, and discuss the principles of the form, its trainign methids, fundamanetals of power generation, basic applciations etc so we can gain a persepctive on NG family style?

[Golden Tiger]

Just because work is a little slow this morning......


The reason that Grandmaster Ng's style is real is because it was used by my sifu and his friend to kick about 8 or 9 SD students a$$ at a tournament back in the 80's when they were jumped by them at a team sparring division at Lexington Catholic.


So you can at least have some of this dead horse story correct:

It was Lafayette, not Lex Catholic. 1984 to be exact.

It wasn't a team sparring division, it was an open spar, circle fight if you will brought on because M. Hiang was tired of your Sifu and others sitting in stands yelling smack and disrupting the tournement.

You Sifu and friend didn't kick about 8 or 9 students a$$. Your Sifu fought Bill Leonard, one on one, in a match refreed by Master Hiang. The clear winner is debatable. Both were bleeding after the match.

So Mark, please, when you decide to discuss the realness of your system, base it on reality, not on a story (that you don't seem to know very well) about an event that happened 24 years ago! Base it on the now, what you gain from it and what it has to offer you.

And yes, I was there......

[mkriii]

The 80s tournament again. :rolleyes: I preferred the respectful communications I had with your teacher on that topic. I've spoken to at least three different eye-witness accounts of that event, and it differs from person to person. But as I'm certain that you and I weren't eye-witneeses, we have nothing that we can contribute toward that dead-end discussion.

The form you are talking about i can not view it at my work computer (my company has a block on certain sites). But I can tell you that Ng Family Style Kung Fu teaches 6 harmonies Here are a few e-mails directly from my sifu to me about 6 harmonies kung fu when we were discussing Ng Style and some other issues a while back.


E-MAIL #1

Dear Mark,

"The Mother of all Styles"? hehe-

What makes the difference; is the Harmony that exists between the 3 internal styles . For instance- Tai Chi is based on simply Yin and Yang neg./pos. ect....

Yin and Yang in Change is Ba- Gua Zhang but only pertaines to the Palm Changes specifically - however it is based on Taoist elemental changes pertaining to Palm changes. The only thing that makes change possible is the Elements thus;
Xing-I based on 5 elements like- Earth, Water, Fire, Metal, Wood -But this style like Ba-gua is only pertaining to 5 fists---However elemental changes are universaly exepted within the Tao- these elements have both Yin and Yang present and Xing-I uses the 5 fists based on elemental priciplas. However Xing-I's direct translation means Heart--Will.

Basically to make the long story short -Man's will is separated from our heart from birth-we move in contrary to the universal harmony. In order to put things back into harmony we practice that what is in harmony which has been derrived from the animals- Now I cold give a 1 week lecture on all this but I am only going to explain Six Harmonys;

Internal;
Yin- Yang-------"Thats the Mother"
Elements------- Are what makes change possible (developed through yin and yang)
8 Diagrams---- Simply the octagon that designates various stated of elemental changes

Now because China has its roots in Taoism - Martial Arts became directly effected in development by the Tao- However because the Tao is just the way- it is not suject to interpritation; it is what it is. Simply "the way"
It is a mathmatical way to defne all things. This would be considered to be a devine or spiritual understanding thus "Internal in nature" 3 Harmonies

Because it is virtually impossible to practise only by spiritual means physical action is applied to a internal philosophy- thus Animals (Physical) with internal thought (Yi) movements.
Each 6 Harmonies Style has its own interperatation of the 3 physical phylosophy- In-fact I have seen on the web many who gave their opinions to interpretations of the 3 externa lharmonies with the brief desriptions of the internal-

One of the bigest issues is in the Internal - too many only focus on physical- they talk about body alignment and movement- but to explain the internal relationships are imossible for those who can not see , Hear, smell, touch or feel-- Internal really means to be Yi driven (In the mind) to move in harmony. This is the short version- I hope it explains alittle- I know it is kind of confusing but I didnt expect to have to write it so fast to explain something that takes a life time-How do you explain your Spirt? Your Mind? Your Will? and where does it originate?
How about yor Brain or Body now those are easy you can see them or feel them- but not things pertaining to the Spirit- People can not comprehend that what they can not see or sence physically- So how do we teach them?

To be continued on lesson 2!

Sincerely
Sifu

E-MAIL #2

Well even the styles you mentioned can have Six Harmonies to initiate the movements- in-fact there are such six harmony methods already. It would be like asking how do I know where the wind begins? You dont- you just feel the breeze- So to answer your question-"By the results".
Dont get me wrong- there are so many Six Harmony styles unfortunatly it isnt the style that signifies the intent- its the intent that signifies the style. So this is why I am so dissapointed when I hear about specific Six Harmony methods and being explained by movements- externally speaking, If the intent is pure and in Harmony so will the movements-
Please understand that when we start speaking to deeply about Six Harmony, it is impossible to do so without bringing the devine natureinto it. I dont normally even talk about this stuff especially on a forum- Just relize the Tao is simply the way of the world. It can be dangerous to stay within the Tao when we practise, as martial artists; because our intent is to deceive or manipulate- "Make your opponent think you are far when yo are near"
It is completely impossible to acheive complete harmony in this way and actually very dangerous spiritually speaking. Just understand that the Tao is a physical way to acheive a devine understanding- and for that we learn when we are ready to accept it- not by training just by yeilding.

Just one more thing (our Will is not a good thing to have)- This is what keeps us within the Tao and enevitably staying in circles for a lifetime. Up down, hot cold, black white, male female- we are taught from the beginning of our lives to always resist the action- through martial training we learn to acept,(Most people would be satisfied with the results) However if the intent is to manupulate or deceive or to get your Will, this is the danger I speak of. Remeber when I mentioned Xing-I and the separation of Heart and Mind- at the moment our Minds become separated from the heart- "the ego is created" Our ego's will be our Will- If we continue to study in this manner for a life time- can you imagine how bent we become? and how we would ultimatly become what we hate. So to simplify, and as the Tao states; Yin will become Yang and Yang will become Yin- or good will become bad and bad will become good. How do I not become subject to a study that I put my faith in (MA)?
By finding the Devine Nature- it is ultimatly the Will not ours. Its a small path very few find it but those who do, can experience a complete change- a real change and one not subject to action reaction of the world.



"Keep up your hard work!"

Sincerely
JD

Those are some e-mails from my sifu to me on Six Harmonies which is a big part of Ng Family style kung fu.

[Judge Pen]

So there is a video? Did you see it with Frank Sexton?

[MasterKiller]

You have several different systems combined in there, where do they all come from?

[Baqualin]

Just because work is a little slow this morning......




So you can at least have some of this dead horse story correct:

It was Lafayette, not Lex Catholic. 1984 to be exact.

It wasn't a team sparring division, it was an open spar, circle fight if you will brought on because M. Hiang was tired of your Sifu and others sitting in stands yelling smack and disrupting the tournement.

You Sifu and friend didn't kick about 8 or 9 students a$$. Your Sifu fought Bill Leonard, one on one, in a match refreed by Master Hiang. The clear winner is debatable. Both were bleeding after the match.

So Mark, please, when you decide to discuss the realness of your system, base it on reality, not on a story (that you don't seem to know very well) about an event that happened 24 years ago! Base it on the now, what you gain from it and what it has to offer you.

And yes, I was there......

I was there also.....you forgot to mention that M. Hiang had broken ELM's foot earlier....before the match.....GT is correct with what happened and how it ended....no clear winner.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

its linear Ba Qua.
Gao style?

[mkriii]

Gao style?

Now that I don't know for sure. I was under the impression that it was something his granfather had created. I don't know but I will try to find out more.

[MasterKiller]

The animal styles are Shaolin except for the Six Harmonies, the Ba Qua, and the monkey. Those were taught to him by his grandfather. I'm not really sure where his grandfather learned it. The Ba Qua is not what most people are used to seeing, its linear Ba Qua. I have just started learning Monkey Ba Qua. Me and three others drove 3 hours to see Grandmaster Ng and he is teaching us Monkey Ba Qua. I guess we have probably learned the first 10 to 15 moves of the form. There are other animal ba qua forms as well. Six harmonies is not Shaolin? Can you elaborate? Is it a long fist style?
Which styles did your animal forms come from?

[mkriii]

Six harmonies is not Shaolin? Can you elaborate? Is it a long fist style?
Which styles did your animal forms come from?

Yes I know six harmonies isn't shaolin. Thats what I said I thought....the animal forms came from Shaolin. The Ba Qua, Six Harmonies, and Tai Chi were not from Shaolin. It was my understanding that these three things came from his grandfather. His grandfather taught the normal linear 12 animal Baqua just with a heavy emphasis on six harmonies.

The snake style that Grandmaster John Ng teaches comes from Bamboo Temple and is the Green Bamboo Viper. It originated on farms in Cambodia near the river banks and made its way up to Southern China. This particular snake style is pretty cool looking and is performed using med/high stances compared to other snake styles that use really low stances. It has more open hand techniques than it does closed hand techniques. But it does have some closed hand/fists in it. Grandmaster John Ng and John Dufresne both teach a snake breathing exercise where you you make your whole body tense/hard while executing different snake strikes and breathing a certain way. This exercise is supposedly to cultivate your chi. This breathing exercise if done right will ware you out.

[MasterKiller]

Yes I know six harmonies isn't shaolin. Thats what I said I thought....the animal forms came from Shaolin. No, what I meant was, is that Six Harmonies is a Shaolin style. I know you said yours was different, so I was looking for more info.

Is it long fist?



The Ba Qua, Six Harmonies, and Tai Chi were not from Shaolin. It was my understanding that these three things came from his grandfather. Where he got it I'm not sure, I was under the impression he created his own version of these. I don't really know but I will try to find out. :) You are saying he created his own versions of Bagua, Six Harmonies, and Tai Chi?

[mkriii]

You are saying he created his own versions of Bagua, Six Harmonies, and Tai Chi?

I think so but not for sure I will e-mail Sifu John Dufresne to find out to find out exactly where Grandmaster Ng's stuff comes from exactly because I don't want to tell you wrong. I'll post it as soon as I find out. :)

[mkriii]

Just e-mailed John Dufresne to find out where GM Ng's stuff comes from. I'll post his reply when I get it. I only studied under GM Ng for three years and during that three years he just taught basics over and over, I'm taklking about only doing side kick, round house kick, front kick, hook kick, horse stance, front stance, drop stance, and maybe learning 5 or so hand strikes, and learning one form (Plum Flower Fist). He wanted to make sure we new our basics well. If you know your basics then everything else will come more easily. Thats all we did for the 3 years I studied under GM Ng. We did sparr. That was brutal. We would sparr with minimal sparring pads. Most of the time we would only wear hand pads and a mouth guard, that was it. We would go pretty hard contact but i loved it. He made us some good fighters thats for sure. Then I have been with John dufresne for 15+ years.

[Judge Pen]

Green Bamboo Viper? I thought you guys taught a "Golden Snake" style.

[mkriii]

Green Bamboo Viper? I thought you guys taught a "Golden Snake" style.


No I thought we did but I went back through my notes that I would write down back when I was younger and its Green Bamboo Viper. I admitt I was wrong (it doesn't happen often though.....lol). Sorry about that. :)

[MasterKiller]

IIRC, there was an article in KungFu/TaiChi magazine about Ng's Golden Snake style.

What style does your Plum Blossom form come from?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Plumb Bussoms, Golden Snakes...what kind of kung fu is going on over here !?!?!
:p

[mkriii]

I have two articles written by Dufresne. The first one is on snake style and the other one is on drunken style. He talks about the snake style he does came from Bamboo Temple. It also shows some techniques using the snake spear (with the wavy spear tip) If you PM me your e-mail address then I will e-mail the articles to you (if you want). One article is from Inside Kung Fu the other is out of Karate Illustrated. Both back in the mid to late 80's.

[MasterKiller]

There was a recent article, within the last couple of years, about a Golden Snake style. I believe it was Ng family, but not written by him. The guy had a mullet and wore an American flag shirt with the sleeves cut out...you know...a Kentucky tuxedo.

Here is my orginal thread:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25988

[mkriii]

Was it Tom Pardue? I think I saw that article, thats what made me think that our snake was Golden Snake but then the article I saw written by Dufresne says it came from Bamboo Temple and that it was Green Bamboo Viper which would make sense if in fact it came from Bamboo Temple.

[MasterKiller]

I am sorry that I do not visit this board more often. Perhaps I would have been able to clear up any questions before things went quite in the direction that they did. My name is Shane Bryant, and I am a closed door student of Master Tim Pickens, the author of the mentioned article. I have trained with him since I was twelve years old, and he is my family. First, any deragatory comments towards him I will now disregard and assume that they were originally made in good fun. After this message I will no longer make that assumption. John Dufresne is my uncle in the arts. I have the highest respect for his abilities and his growth as a martial artist and more importantly as a man. I won't be involved in any discussion on the nature of his character from this point forward. Beyond that, he certainly does not need me to defend him as his accomplishments are numerous and easy enough to find out on your own.

On to the things that I do wish to discuss. My teacher as well as his brother, Master Ricky Pickens, who I have also trained with regularly and also regard as my family, both recieved black belts from Sin The in the Shaolin-Do organization. When Rick met Dr. John Ng while attending Eastern Kentucky University, they switched thier training to Dr. Ng's family arts, feeling that this training was better suited to their goals as martial artists. The Southern Golden Snake art that my teacher is speaking of in this article is from Dr. Ng's system and not from the Shaolin-Do system. Neither of the Masters Pickens have any current affiliation with that organization. Also, my martial uncle Master Mark Speck was mentioned as well. Master Speck also originally began in the Shaolin-Do system, but left when he met Master Rick Pickens to become a student of the Pickens Brothers. He is, to this date, the most learned of their students, as well as a good man, which is more important.

Now, many of the comments made in this discussion thread were negative, which immediately makes me suspect that perhaps the individuals involved just wanted to bash something and be heard, not to contribute or learn. However, I am going to make yet another assumption (despite what we all know that makes me) and assume that you all do want to share information in humility so that we may all grow in our knowledge. In that spirit, I invite all of you who still have questions to email me at shane_bryant@hotmail.com and I will be happy to talk to you in length about whatever it is that you are curious about in regards to this article or our style in general. If I do not have the answers I will tell you so, but I will also go to my teachers and try to get them for you. I AM willing to respond to questions on this board, but that is not exactly my favorite thing. I prefer private correspondence as those who wish to truly have a discussion are not interrupted by those who only wish to speak without meaning. A lesson to them is that there is a difference between having pride in your system and its heritage and loving your teachers, and what often occurs on this board. The first is very personal and strong, while the latter is fragile and based upon feelings of inadequacy and an ego that must be catered to by publicly crusading against any who take issue with you in order to combat those feelings.

One final note, to themeecer. I truly expect to hear from you. You wrote with the connotation that you had disdain for the information contained in the article. I will not argue with you because I know the quality of the results contained in these teachings. I will humble myself to you now because I am nothing and ask you to share knowledge in return.

To all of you again, please, I invite discourse.

Shane Bryant

From that thread...

[MasterKiller]

Mark,
Can you clarify your feelings about why you think Ng's style is more pertinent and authentic if you believe he made up most of your forms, as opposed to why Sin The' is not authentic because you feel he made up most of his forms?

I'm not making any judgement calls about either system, mind you. But can you elaborate?

[Judge Pen]

Are you saying that Tim Pickens isn't a legit student of John Ng? I found this site: http://ngfamilymuncie.tripod.com/id2.html.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.6harmonies.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=1&el_mcal=-2

According to this website, Golden Snake is taught under the lineage of John Ng.

[mkriii]

Mark,
Can you clarify your feelings about why you think Ng's style is more pertinent and authentic if you believe he made up most of your forms, as opposed to why Sin The' is not authentic because you feel he made up most of his forms?

I'm not making any judgement calls about either system, mind you. But can you elaborate?

Sure I'll be happy to explain myself. First I'm not sure if he (meaning Ng's grandfather) made them up, modified them or what he did. Thats why I have e-mailed Dufresne to find out. Now, on to your question.....Its not so much that I think or believe GM Sin made up these forms. My thing is that some of the forms don't (in my opinion) look chinese in any way or look like what I've seen any other chinese kung fu martial artist do. SD forms have a look all of thier own. And don't tell me that nobody teaches authentic kung fu. All the kung fu forms that I have seen are fluid and smooth with circular blocking and so forth. The very first form that is taught under GM Sin looks more like a karate form than anything. The whole X block up and down and the forms makes a square. Thats something I would expect to see a TKD or TSD student do or even Kenpo. I think he borrowed forms from other styles.

[mkriii]

Are you saying that Tim Pickens isn't a legit student of John Ng? I found this site: http://ngfamilymuncie.tripod.com/id2.html.


I never said that at all. I didn't mention anyones name specifically, did I? And I won't say names specifically. But I will say this, The names on that list of people who are legit Ng teachers are not accurate.

[Golden Tiger]

The snake style that Grandmaster Ng teaches comes from Bamboo Temple and is the Green Bamboo Viper.

You mention Green Viper yet all the links associated with Dr. Ng refer to it as Golden Snake. Care to comment? Plus, wasn't there a big stink with Dr. Ng retired among the top echelon? Perhaps some went Green and others went Gold.....just a thought.

[mkriii]

O.K.......... regarding snake style taught in the Ng family...... I went back through the article that I have that Dufresne wrote and it seems like Ng family teaches both green bamboo viper and golden snake because John Duresne mentions both. The article shows him with a snake spear and Rusty Gray with a three sectional staff and John is attacking Rusty with the snake spaer. John goes on to state that the spear was nicknamed "the king of all weapons" by the Shaolin Monks but John states that the snake spear is the "true king" of all weapons.

If anyone wants a copy of the article I have it saved on my computer and can e-mail it to you.

[mkriii]

Are you saying that Tim Pickens isn't a legit student of John Ng? I found this site: http://ngfamilymuncie.tripod.com/id2.html.

Why did you think that I was talking about tim pickens? I never eluded to this at all in any of my posts. I believe that I may have met Tim once or twice at a tournament in Whitesburg, Kyentucky at the mountain fellowship tournament. It doesn't really matter what I think about Tim anyways. Greatgrandmaster has passed his title of Grandmaster on to him.

GreenTiger, there was a little upheaval about some decisions but it has all been taken care of within the family.

[Judge Pen]

Why did you think that I was talking about tim pickens? I never eluded to this at all in any of my posts. I believe that I may have met Tim once or twice at a tournament in Whitesburg, Kyentucky at the mountain fellowship tournament. It doesn't really matter what I think about Tim anyways. Greatgrandmaster has passed his title of Grandmaster on to him and wheather you like it or hate it you better learn to live with it because GreatGM John Ng did it.

GoldenTiger, there was a little upheaval about some decisions but it has all been taken care of within the family. Those who aired any dirty laundery on the internet have been talked to and dealt with and everyone has moved on past this but thanks for the concern in the matter. We'll keep you informed on any updates. :)

I really don't know the internal politics of Ng Family style are really wasn't trying to allude to anything. I mentioned Tim Pickens because his name was out there re: Golden Snake (and your initial response was it was green bamboo viper not
Golden Snake and that some people try to "coattail" on Ng's name).

It sounds like Ng Family has its share of politics (like any organization). Keep your head down and keep training and you'll be fine.

[mkriii]

JudgePen.....would you like to see the articles by Dufresne? I can easily e-mail them to you if you wish? Some of the people that claim to be John Ng's students really are BUT they haven't spoke to him in like 10 years or longer and have really no idea whats going on in the family. Granted it's been 2 years (until recently) since I have actually spoken to him myself. But then again I'm not claiming to be taught exclusively by him either like some are claiming.

[Judge Pen]

MRK: e-mail sent.

Can you tell us more about the structure to Ng family style. It seems to teach several differernt styles. Do you have any type of ranking system? About how many forms are taught to a typical student per year? Is their a curriculim and if so, how is it determined when certain forms are taught? How does one rectify the differing principles and fundamentals of these different styles? Are entire systems eventually taught out or do you move from style to style in the instruction. In addition to the forms themselves could you address the underlying training for these forms?

These are some common questions that have been asked of many style; I'm curious to learn how they are addressed in Ng family kung fu.

[MasterKiller]

Sure I'll be happy to explain myself. First I'm not sure if he (meaning Ng's grandfather) made them up, modified them or what he did. Thats why I have e-mailed Dufresne to find out.

Why don't you know this stuff yourself? How high are you ranked in the system?

[mkriii]

Sure I can address these questions or try to anyways. I first studied at Four Season Kung Fu Academy owned by Great Grandmasterr Ng. I studied there for about almost 3 years although GGM Ng only taught my cklass from time to time. At Four Seasons the main focus for a long time was just basics and more basics. Things such as kicks, stances, and puching. A little self defense and a lot of sparring. Forms were not taught until you had been there a while, say after maybe a year and a half or so. Then you would learn a form. I was there long enough to learn one full form (Plum Flower Fist). It was about this time that John Dufresne left Four Seasons and opened his school (International Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy). I left and went with Dufresne. Dufresne left 4 Seasons becuase one of the things he disliked was not having a set curriculum to go by for the students. John teaches everything that Great Grandmaster does he just set it to a curriculum and sash rankss. I guess every person that learned from Great Grandmaster teaches the same stuff but it is up to them how they want to go about teaching it. John Dufresne's sash levels goes like this: white, yellow, green, purple, blue, red, 2nd brown, 1st brown, 1st black, 2nd black, etc....

Each sash has the material you should learn. The first form under John Dufresne that you learn is Gung Li Chuan. Then you move to each animal style...Fu Jow (tiger), Plum Flower Fist (crane), She Chuan (snake), Leopard, and Loong Ying (dragon). Alonfg the way I learned Wu Shu Long Fist Compulsery Form because I was on the schools Wu Shu Team. Once you get to Black sash at Dufresne's school one of the things you have to do is make up a creative form to perform. This was something John Ng was big on. He would often times surprise students at tournament and have them thinking they're doing one particular animal form and then at the last minute tell them they are doing a different animal form that they have never learned before, then once back at the school he would start training them on that specific animal style that he wanted you to do at the tournament. There was no set curriculum like there was with Dufresne. After black sash John Dufresne would size up your ability and see what he thinks you would be best at and then start training you in that particular style. It's not till you get higher up that you really starty to learn the internal stuff unless you just really want to learn it in addition to the external stuff. I really liked the tiger and the snake so I started training in a little bit of both more than the others. I'm strong and stalky from wrestling in high school but I'm fast and like the pressure point strikes and I like to be sneaky and deceptive like the snake so I tried to learn as much of both of those styles that I could.

[mkriii]

So under John Dufresne's curriculum your going to learn 3 or 4 empty hand forms and 2 weapons forms in the first year depending on how fast you learn. I'm a second level black sash and here are the forms I know: gung li, tiger, green bambo viper, plum flower fist, leopard fist, loong ying chuan, fu jow chuan, another Fu Jow form (half tught to me by GGM Ng and half taught to me from Dufresne), wu shu long fist, a tiger/crane form, green bamboo twin viper (2 man set), monkey fist form (taught to me by Mark Burgher who was taught by GGM Jon Ng), staff/bo, braodsword, whip chain, 5 animal form plus lohan, and praying mantis form. Most of those are required up to 2nd level black sash under John Dufresne. I can't speak for other Ng instructors. I think it's pretty much up to them how they want to get the material to the student.

[mkriii]

I'm only 2nd level black sash (under John Dufresne). Not many know the whole history of Grandmaster Wing Loc John Ng. Only his more dedicated, long time students students know.

[Judge Pen]

only 2nd level black sash. Not many know the history of John Ng. Only a few close students know.

I wonder why that is. Not flaming, but why should one's martial history and lineage be a secret?

[MasterKiller]

Especially from senior students. Maybe Mark just never asked, but I would think seniors would be informed about the style's history and where the forms came from.

[Golden Tiger]

This was something John Ng was big on. He would often times surprise students at tournament and have them thinking they're doing one paarticular animal form and then at the last minute tell them they are doing a completely different animal form that they have never learned before, then once back at the school he would start training them on that specific animal style that he wanted you to do at the tournament.

I am not sure I understand this. So he would have a student think he was doing a tiger form, then tell him it was actually a monkey form? Or think they would be doing say, tiger 1 but it was really tiger 5 (as an example)?

Can you elaborate on this?

[MasterKiller]

I think he's saying he would make them learn a new form for tournaments, despite the fact they had been training one already for competition purposes.

[MasterKiller]

What is this talk about your Bagua not really being Bagua? I read somewhere one time that you guys call it Bagua, but the real name is Divine Boxing or something...

What's that about?

[tattooedmonk]

I am not sure I understand this. So he would have a student think he was doing a tiger form, then tell him it was actually a monkey form? Or think they would be doing say, tiger 1 but it was really tiger 5 (as an example)?

Can you elaborate on this?I believe he means that the students would practice certain forms to perform at tourneys and such and then he turns around and teaches another form and tells them that they are no longer doing the other form they are doing this form.

Maybe, I do not know, just a guess.

The reason I was thinking about it like this is because DS and SHS used to do something like this for the the China trips. They would not tell you what form(s) you are performing until the last .

So you better be up to the second on your material.

[tattooedmonk]

I think he's saying he would make them learn a new form for tournaments, despite the fact they had been training one already for competition purposes.
I think this is it

[tattooedmonk]

I wonder why that is. Not flaming, but why should one's martial history and lineage be a secret?Not to defend him or anything but as I understand it this is the way it was done until recently.

I understand why some people do and some people do not.

To each his own.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Why did you think that I was talking about tim pickens? I never eluded to this at all in any of my posts. I believe that I may have met Tim once or twice at a tournament in Whitesburg, Kyentucky at the mountain fellowship tournament. It doesn't really matter what I think about Tim anyways. Greatgrandmaster has passed his title of Grandmaster on to him and wheather you like it or hate it you better learn to live with it because GreatGM John Ng did it.

GreenTiger, there was a little upheaval about some decisions but it has all been taken care of within the family. Those who aired any dirty laundery on the internet have been talked to and dealt with and everyone has moved on past this but thanks for the concern in the matter. We'll keep you informed on any updates. :)

Are you guys associated with Scientology?

[mkriii]

I am not sure I understand this. So he would have a student think he was doing a tiger form, then tell him it was actually a monkey form? Or think they would be doing say, tiger 1 but it was really tiger 5 (as an example)?

Can you elaborate on this?


Sure, when we would go to tournaments he would surprise you at the last minute and tell you to do a different form than what you had been practicing. For example, you might be thinking your going to do a simple tiger form and then right before you go before the judges to perform he would tell you do a monkey form even though you don't know monkey. He did this more with weapons though. You'd think your going to do a staff or spear and then at the last moment give you some off the wall weapon to do like a battle ax or a trident or a hook spear. He would do this to see how well you act under pressure and to see how you handle that weapon becuase he might be thinking about training you more in that particular weapon or style. I hope that I explained it a little bit more clearly. :)

[mkriii]

he prob stole all his stuff from SD then opened his school. So no it is not real KC

What the heck is KC?

[Judge Pen]

Sure, when we would go to tournaments he would surprise you at the last minute and tell you to do a different form than what you had been practicing. For example, you might be thinking your going to do a simple tiger form and then right before you go before the judges to perform he would tell you do a monkey form even though you don't know monkey. He did this more with weapons though. You'd think your going to do a staff or spear and then at the last moment give you some off the wall weapon to do like a battle ax or a trident or a hook spear. He would do this to see how well you act under pressure and to see how you handle that weapon becuase he might be thinking about training you more in that particular weapon or style. I hope that I explained it a little bit more clearly. :)

In a public performance he would tell you to do a style that you have never trained in like monkey? So you would then jump around and do a monkey form the way that you think a monkey form should be done? :confused:

[Judge Pen]

What the heck is KC?

An abbreviation for kwaichang. :rolleyes:

[mkriii]

In a public performance he would tell you to do a style that you have never trained in like monkey? So you would then jump around and do a monkey form the way that you think a monkey form should be done? :confused:

Yep, crazy isn't it? He didn't do that all the time but ocationally, he did it more so with weapons though. Talk about feeling wierd and scared, like a fish out of water. He would say in his broken English "just do it" but it came out sounding like "jus duweet". Its funny looking back on it but scary back then. He definitely had his own way of teaching.

[mkriii]

Some of Grandmaster Ng's training exercises really seemed crazy at the time. He had this one training exercise for snake style that was called "snake poll training". It reminded me of the exercises in the movie with Jackie Chan. We had this poll that was about 6 1/2 to 7 feet tall and about 4 inches around in diameter. What you do is you cup your hand around the back of the poll at shoulder or ear level and flip it over your shoulder bringing your hand thats cupping it down to about your waist level, and then bring your hand back up to cup it again by your head before it falls. This exercise serves several perposes.....One, it developes wrist strength. Two, it developes speed in your hands. Three, it teaches you how to use your hands to wrap around your opponent. Some other exercises and stuff is we would do dive rolls over milk crates and finger tip push ups. Grandmaster Ng also had an obstacle course behind the school in some wooded area that we would have to run, things like crossing a log bridge and climbing a tree and swinging on a rope. This would be like a warm up before class. In the back of the school gym (which was like a big warehouse building made of metal) there was a big thick rope that we had to climb. We had to hang from the rafters for minutes which seemed like an eternity when your 16 years old and your 25 feet above the ground, It was high. We had sparring sessions where we would sparr blind folded or we would sparr 2 or 3 on 1. It was deffinitely an experience (a good one).

[Judge Pen]

Some of Grandmaster Ng's training exercises really seemed crazy at the time. He had this one training exercise for snake style that was called "snake poll training". It reminded me of the exercises in the movie with Jackie Chan. We had this poll that was about 6 1/2 to 7 feet tall and about 4 inches around in diameter. What you do is you cup your hand around the back of the poll at shoulder or ear level and flip it over your shoulder bringing your hand thats cupping it down to about your waist level, and then bring your hand back up to cup it again by your head before it falls. This exercise serves several perposes.....One, it developes wrist strength. Two, it developes speed in your hands. Three, it teaches you how to use your hands to wrap around your opponent. Some other exercises and stuff is we would do dive rolls over milk crates and finger tip push ups. Grandmaster Ng also had an obstacle course behind the school in some wooded area that we would have to run, things like crossing a log bridge and climbing a tree and swinging on a rope. This would be like a warm up before class. In the back of the school gym (which was like a big warehouse building made of metal) there was a big thick rope that we had to climb. We had to hang from the rafters for minutes which seemed like an eternity when your 16 years old and your 25 feet above the ground, It was high. We had sparring sessions where we would sparr blind folded or we would sparr 2 or 3 on 1. It was deffinitely an experience (a good one).

Aside from the pole exercises, nothing you described was not done as part of my formal training in SD. Obstacle courses. Diving and rolling over objects. Finger-tip push ups?--a dozen different varieties. Blindfold sparring 6 on 1 at one point. And all of that was with my first teacher prior to moving to Tennessee. Heck 2 on 1 sparring is routine in my classes and a mandatory part of testing.

Fun things to enhance your training and shake them up. I don't know how I feel about the forms bait and switch. I don't really think its fair to the student because if they don't know monkey, then whatever they came up with wouldn't be monkey, would it? But I have had my teacher do things to see how I would respond under "pressure" so I understand the concept even if I don't agree with the methodology.

[Judge Pen]

I thought this thread was for former Ng students. Why aren't more posting here?

[mkriii]

Fun things to enhance your training and shake them up. I don't know how I feel about the forms bait and switch. I don't really think its fair to the student because if they don't know monkey, then whatever they came up with wouldn't be monkey, would it? But I have had my teacher do things to see how I would respond under "pressure" so I understand the concept even if I don't agree with the methodology.

The thing with the form though is at an open circuit tournament the judges aren't going to know if it's a legit form or not because more than not they are going to be shotokan karate or Ishen Ryu Karate or some other karate style so it was funny when (and it happened a few times) one of us would win 1st or 2nd place with a made up form. If you were a good B.S.ter and a good actor you could pull it off. Also this let him see what you think about this particular style and helps him decide wheather he thinks it right for you.


I thought this thread was for former Ng students. Why aren't more posting here?

I don't know why more aren't posting. I wish they would though.

[MasterKiller]

What is this talk about your Bagua not really being Bagua? I read somewhere one time that you guys call it Bagua, but the real name is Divine Boxing or something...

What's that about?

What about this?

[mkriii]

My sifu always calls it Baqua. I don't know what this devine whatever is. I'll check and find out though, see if my sifu (John Dufresne) knows. When I find out from him I'll post it A.S.A.P.

You got me curious about it. I saw something refering to Hsing I called devine crushing fist but nothing in regards to Baqua. I'll check it out though.

[MasterKiller]

Shane,
What is the origin of your Six Harmony style? Mark was under the impression either Ng or his Grandfather invented it.

[mkriii]

I study Ng Family Bagua and I'm pretty sure I remember the thread that you read this on. Some of the older names for Baguazhang were turning palm or rotating palm. In one of the early English language books on Bagua (I think it's Robert Smith's book, but I could be wrong) somewhere in there somebody (Maybe Dong, Hai-quan, again, I can't remember) is quoted as saying they learned a divine style of boxing. Eventually people started calling the art Baguazhang. All common knowledge. I think whoever posted that got these things sort of muddled up and misinterpreted them. I remember reading that when it was posted, but I didn't care enough to say anything. Our Baguazhang is Baguazhang.

To answer another question, our style of Baguazhang is not Gao style Baguazhang. It's Jiang, Rongqiao style, heavily influenced by Six Harmony Fist and Monkey Boxing. It's called linear Baguazhang just because we don't practice our forms on the circle. We still circle walk, just not during our forms.

Shane

Finally another Ng member.......lol. Yes I just started learning monkey Baqua a while back. Me and Mark Bugher and a girl named Lilly went to whitesburg and John showed us the begginings of it. It's really cool. I hope to learn more of it. But there were a few here on this forum that were asking the origins of some of "our" (meaning Ng style) stuff and could not answer it with certainty. All I know is most of it came from his grandfather, am I correct on that much? Where did his grandfather learn it?

[mkriii]

Shane, where are you from and when did you study under John Ng? I studied for three years at four seasons (1985-1988) then under Dufresne since 1989 to present. There is a lot of history that I do not know about our stuff. The info about our snake was really interesting to me. Do you have any other info on anything. Since my teach (John Dufresne) moved back to Boston I don't get the chance to ask him very much unless it's through e-mail. Please inform me. Thanks, Mark R.

[Judge Pen]

The thing with the form though is at an open circuit tournament the judges aren't going to know if it's a legit form or not because more than not they are going to be shotokan karate or Ishen Ryu Karate or some other karate style so it was funny when (and it happened a few times) one of us would win 1st or 2nd place with a made up form. If you were a good B.S.ter and a good actor you could pull it off. Also this let him see what you think about this particular style and helps him decide wheather he thinks it right for you.


If that were the case, then you weren't going to a very high quality tournament with knowledgeable judges. Try that at the Taiji legacy and see what happens.

[Judge Pen]

The structure is going to be different for each branch. The branches basically begin with Dr. Ng. He was a professional martial artist all through his youth, and had the time and inclination to learn a few complete styles, huge chunks of a few more, and bits and pieces of several others. Most of his students, however, did useless stuff like go to college, have families, get jobs, etc. So since they didn't all have time to learn everything, he taught everybody different stuff from his repertoire. Pretty much everybody that I've met got a little taste of everything, but they also all had their specialty and in most cases they learned that one complete system and the other stuff was just extra. A few of them got more than one complete system.

Shane


Thanks Shane. I was curious because this "patchwork" style of learning and teaching has been criticized and I was wondering how an Ng student avoided the pitfalls of the fundamentals of different styles running together. As you said, it would be easier if you were a full time student, but those with families and jobs might have a tougher row to hoe. :)

I'm also curious about your BaGua. The form of BaGua that I know is also a version of Jiang Rongqiao's. With Ng students, is the style initially taught with the circle walking, and that part is phased out as one progresses in understanding the fundamentals of the palm changes? The reason I'm asking is that I was under the impression that the special characteristcs of BaGua were walking, the gaze, the sitting position and overturning (Dragon form, Monkey Appearance, Tiger Sitting, Eagle Overturning). The stepping should be endless, circular and flowing like a swimming dragon. How does one train JRQ form of Bagua without the circle walk?

[brucereiter]

I study Ng Family Bagua

To answer another question, our style of Baguazhang is not Gao style Baguazhang. It's Jiang, Rongqiao style, heavily influenced by Six Harmony Fist and Monkey Boxing. It's called linear Baguazhang just because we don't practice our forms on the circle. We still circle walk, just not during our forms.

Shane

hi shane,

is the bagua you practice a modified version of jian rong qiao's "original" form?
if so who modified it?
how/when did it come into your system?
is there video of this "linear" form online?
is it the same postures as jiang rong qiao shows in his book but done without the circle walk?

thanks for answering with any information you have.

[brucereiter]

How does one train JRQ form of Bagua without the circle walk?

hi jp,

here is a short clip of "jrq" bagua without the circle walk. i call it part of "level training".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdwqvqi2cO4
there was a thin sheet of ice on the boat so give me a break :-)

basically you go from posture to posture with out walking the circle and then you do random postures. this practice gives you a lot of "single palm change" practice.

single palm change is maybe the most important thing to understand about bagua.

[Judge Pen]

hi jp,

here is a short clip of "jrq" bagua without the circle walk. i call it part of "level training".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdwqvqi2cO4
there was a thin sheet of ice on the boat so give me a break :-)

basically you go from posture to posture with out walking the circle and then you do random postures. this practice gives you a lot of "single palm change" practice.

single palm change is maybe the most important thing to understand about bagua.

Thanks for the clip Bruce. You call that "level training" What do you mean by that? I'm not familiar with that term. Are you referring to training without the circle walk or training on different surfaces (not necessarily level)?

[Baqualin]

hi jp,

here is a short clip of "jrq" bagua without the circle walk. i call it part of "level training".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdwqvqi2cO4
there was a thin sheet of ice on the boat so give me a break :-)

basically you go from posture to posture with out walking the circle and then you do random postures. this practice gives you a lot of "single palm change" practice.

single palm change is maybe the most important thing to understand about bagua.


The form without the walk and just doing the postures is called linkage in most circles.....this is very good practice.....similar to Hsing I linkage set.......a common Baqua practice.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

The form without the walk and just doing the postures is called linkage in most circles.....this is very good practice.....similar to Hsing I linkage set.......a common Baqua practice.
BQ
Thanks BQ. I've "freestyled" the form often by mixing the palm changes, but I've never tried it without the circle walking.

[MasterKiller]

If that were the case, then you weren't going to a very high quality tournament with knowledgeable judges. Try that at the Taiji legacy and see what happens.

No sh1t. The traditional judges at Taiji Legacy are strict. I've seen them disqualify people for making stuff up.

[Judge Pen]

We train our Baguazhang like this:

Wuji
Eight Energy Palms Standing
Linear Walking Patterns
Circle Walking
Circle Walking Eight Energy Palms w/ Inside Change and Outside Change
Eight Energy Palms Functions, Striking Drills, Blocking Drills, Rolling Hands
Combat Footwork and Kicking
Equipment Training and Conditioning
Fighting
etc.

So those are our basics. I just typed this real fast so I might have left something out. If I notice later that I did, I will edit.


Thanks for the response. The are, as always, very knowledgable and informative.

Is that the order of your training too? When one is learning BaGua are they learning that exclusively or are they training in other styles as well? How long does one train in Ba Gua before they move on to also train in something else?

[Baqualin]

We train our Baguazhang like this:

Wuji
Eight Energy Palms Standing
Linear Walking Patterns
Circle Walking
Circle Walking Eight Energy Palms w/ Inside Change and Outside Change
Eight Energy Palms Functions, Striking Drills, Blocking Drills, Rolling Hands
Combat Footwork and Kicking
Equipment Training and Conditioning
Fighting
etc.

So those are our basics. I just typed this real fast so I might have left something out. If I notice later that I did, I will edit.

Anyway, the forms come into play after that and basically teach combinations & drills and act as an exercise to keep you moving in the bagua 'way' for an extended period of time in order to get you used to the body mechanics and the principles of movement to enhance your fighting.

As far as constant walking, when you're practicing your Baguazhang form, there are very few times that you should not be moving and/or transitioning with your footwork, and to my understanding that is how you should think of the special characteristic of constantly walking. The way you do it in the form is kind of applying that to the big picture whereas the circle walking is (amongst many other things) a way to practice it in isolation. The same is true of the other three animal qualities. They should all be present and be practiced in the form at every moment of every movement, so it doesn't really matter if you're walking the circle while you do the form or not. In order to do this, though, you will of course have needed to practice them in isolation long enough to integrate them into your forms practice. That's our way, anyway. Other people have their own way too, of course.


Shane

Very impressed!!! A nicely laid out program that allows alot of understanding of Baqua
principals....Thanks for sharing,
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Has anyone heard of Instructor David White? He claims to have learned under grandmaster Ng as well. Anyone know him or trained with him. I think he may have taught in Roanoke Virginia for a time.

[brucereiter]

Thanks for the clip Bruce. You call that "level training" What do you mean by that? I'm not familiar with that term. Are you referring to training without the circle walk or training on different surfaces (not necessarily level)?

sorry to derail the thread :-)

it can have circle walking how ever many steps you would like then to any posture and step if you want to and then do any posture.

in general the way i do it is i start by doing the form with no circle walking just doing the postures. then i circle walk and do random postures. you can have a training partner call out the next random posture to test you brain a bit.

since you mention different surfaces i feel it is essential to walk you circle on a variety of surfaces uneven ground, flat ground, hills, rocks, on ice (as seen in that clip), in mud, in thick grass ... etc etc

[Judge Pen]

sorry to derail the thread :-)

it can have circle walking how ever many steps you would like then to any posture and step if you want to and then do any posture.

in general the way i do it is i start by doing the form with no circle walking just doing the postures. then i circle walk and do random postures. you can have a training partner call out the next random posture to test you brain a bit.

since you mention different surfaces i feel it is essential to walk you circle on a variety of surfaces uneven ground, flat ground, hills, rocks, on ice (as seen in that clip), in mud, in thick grass ... etc etc

I agree with the different terrain training. I would go even further and say to train in the types of clothes that you normally wear to get a feel for the movement in those clothes.

[mkriii]

Shane......do you know if there is a tournament (Mountain Fellowship) this year? I heard about something about some trouble that Frank had with a tournament and some money last year I think it was? Do you know anything about it? I heard this is why GM Ng doesn't teach Frank anymore. If you do not wish to say openly you can PM me on it. Just curious. If there is a tournament this year I hope I haven't missed it. I'd like to go up and see John Ng and his family. It's hard to believe his son is in college now. I remember his son when he was just a little baby crawling around on the floor at Four Seasons here in Lexington when John had his school here (Lex.). Makes me feel old.....lol. I might have met you before Shane. I was up in Whitesburg in 2005 or 2006 for that tournament and also a few other times learning a little Monkey BaQua. Frank and GM Ng were teaching it to me, Mark Burgher, and a few others that went up with us. Mark Burgher had a bad case of gout in his foot and GM Ng did accupuncture on him (Burgher) back at his house. Then we went out for Chinese food at some hole in the wall place BUT really good food.

[mkriii]

I don't think I was at the first one but I was at the second one. The second one is when Brian Hall was there. I don't know if you met him. Me and him went to Morehead University together. I know Dufresne was there as well and Mark Burger and I believe Chris Spalding was there too.

Yeah, Dufresne knows all about tournaments. He's competed and judged at enough of them. I wish he were still here in Kentucky, It makes it hard to learn when your sifu is in another state. I only get to see him maybe 2 or 3 times a year. I get to talk to him on the phone and through e-mails though but it's not the same.

Anyways, if your ever in Lexington give me a shout.

[Baqualin]

I don't think I was at the first one but I was at the second one. The second one is when Brian Hall was there. I don't know if you met him. Me and him went to Morehead University together. I know Dufresne was there as well and Mark Burger and I believe Chris Spalding was there too.

Yeah, Dufresne knows all about tournaments. He's competed and judged at enough of them. I wish he were still here in Kentucky, It makes it hard to learn when your sifu is in another state. I only get to see him maybe 2 or 3 times a year. I get to talk to him on the phone and through e-mails though but it's not the same.

Anyways, if your ever in Lexington give me a shout.

Mark, Shane lives in Lexington.
BQ

[mkriii]

Awe.........Silly me. :D So he does. I didn't even look to see where he lived. We'll have to get together sometime Shane. Where abouts do you live in Lexington. I'm over in the Palomar area.

Mark

[mkriii]

How friendly has mkriii been ???? Just thought he would like a taste of his own medicin for a while KC

Thought you should know that medicin is actually spelled MEDICINE. There is an E on the end of it. If your going to be hateful at least have the decency to spell correctly. :rolleyes:

[mkriii]

Just because work is a little slow this morning......




So you can at least have some of this dead horse story correct:

It was Lafayette, not Lex Catholic. 1984 to be exact.

It wasn't a team sparring division, it was an open spar, circle fight if you will brought on because M. Hiang was tired of your Sifu and others sitting in stands yelling smack and disrupting the tournement.

You Sifu and friend didn't kick about 8 or 9 students a$$. Your Sifu fought Bill Leonard, one on one, in a match refreed by Master Hiang. The clear winner is debatable. Both were bleeding after the match.

So Mark, please, when you decide to discuss the realness of your system, base it on reality, not on a story (that you don't seem to know very well) about an event that happened 24 years ago! Base it on the now, what you gain from it and what it has to offer you.

And yes, I was there......

I let this go for a while (to long) but the more I read your post the more I have to say this. My sifu was not yelling smack as you state. :rolleyes: They were hand picked out of the croud in the stands by so called "grandmaster" Hiang The' to come down and join thier competition (whether team sparring or not it isn't important). When my sifu and the other got down to the ring they got jumped by a bunch of SD people. :( It was all orchastrated & planned out way in advance. Yes this happened 20 + years ago but how would you or your fellow Shaolin Do brothers feel if this had happened to one of thier people such as Elder Master Leonard? You would still harbor feelings of dislike also. There has always been a rival and to some will continue to have emotions regarding that event. You had two big named martial art schools that had been around for many many years whithin the same town. Your going to have a bit of a rivalry. :D

[mkriii]

Whats she getting her PhD in?

[kwaichang]

The E is silent in Medicine as you should be. KC

[BM2]

I let this go for a while (too long) but the more I read your post the more I have to say this. My sifu was not yelling smack as you state. :rolleyes: They were hand picked out of the croud in the stands by so called "grandmaster" Hiang The' to come down and join thier (their)competition (whether team sparring or not it isn't important). When my sifu and the other got down to the ring they got jumped by a bunch of SD people. :( It was all orchastrated & planned out way in advance. Yes this happened 20 + years ago but how would you or your fellow Shaolin Do brothers feel if this had happened to one of thier people such as Elder Master Leonard? You would still harbor feelings of dislike also. There has always been a rival and to some will continue to have emotions regarding that event. You had two big named martial art schools that had been around for many many years whithin the same town. Your going to have a bit of a rivalry. :D


Quote from mrkiii , If your going to be hateful at least have the decency to spell correctly.


Dude, you really don't know what you are talking about.

[brucereiter]

I agree with the different terrain training. I would go even further and say to train in the types of clothes that you normally wear to get a feel for the movement in those clothes.

totally i always train in my "normal" cloths.

[Golden Tiger]

I let this go for a while (to long) but the more I read your post the more I have to say this. My sifu was not yelling smack as you state.

Actually, yes they were. All throughout the demo, they were yelling, making comments, standing out quite a bit. And I didn't even mention the funny somersault and one finger salute he gave when he was leaving the building.

They were hand picked out of the croud in the stands by so called "grandmaster" Hiang The' to come down and join thier competition (whether team sparring or not it isn't important).

Wrong again. At the end of the demo, as has always been, there was to be a circle fight. It usually invloves all the black belts that did the demo. Because the other group kept running smack, Master (not Grand Master at the time mind you) Hiang said "If anyone in the stands would like to join, please come on down" I know this because my instructor at the time was sitting with me got up and went down to join.

When my sifu and the other got down to the ring they got jumped by a bunch of SD people. It was all orchastrated & planned out way in advance.

Wrong again. It was a circle fight, everybody against everybody. It was only after one of the guys knocked down a woman and was on top of her did anyone really pay attention. After that, a lot of smack was being thrown from both sides, then Master Bill and John agreed to a match.

Yes this happened 20 + years ago but how would you or your fellow Shaolin Do brothers feel if this had happened to one of thier people such as Elder Master Leonard?
Personally, I would be ashamed of them. If he/they couldn't attend someone elses demo and watch and not be noticed, there is something wrong.


You would still harbor feelings of dislike also.
Apparently not. They came to our demo, caused this infamous mess and I have no ill feeling toward any of them

There has always been a rival and to some will continue to have emotions regarding that event. You had two big named martial art schools that had been around for many many years whithin the same town. Your going to have a bit of a rivalry.

Yeah, I used to be like that when I was in High School........:rolleyes:


Look Mark, I was there, BQ was there, BM2 was there, OTD* was there...you were not. We have all stated the same facts of the evening and to speak for my self, it was not a good night for anyone. You can think what you want to think about it based on second hand heresay, but you will never be correct. There seems to be a good conversation going on this thread and there is no reason to derail it with something that doesn't really matter to anyone anymore....

* spelling mistakes are in italics just for giggles

[Judge Pen]

Look Mark, I was there, BQ was there, BM2 was there, OTD* was there...you were not. We have all stated the same facts of the evening and to speak for my self, it was not a good night for anyone. You can think what you want to think about it based on second hand heresay, but you will never be correct. There seems to be a good conversation going on this thread and there is no reason to derail it with something that doesn't really matter to anyone anymore....

* spelling mistakes are in italics just for giggles

Mark, it appears the only person still harboring ill will is you. We've started a fairly constructive conversation here on the training methods of Ng family kung fu. It's a nice topic for Ng people and SD people because they certainly share certain geographic roots and the way material is "mixed and matched" is similar so we have information that is helpful to share with one another. This forum and this thread can either go a long way to heal old wounds or it can be used to dig up old hatchets. Please ask your sifu which he would prefer you do.

[TrollTerminator]

I let this go for a while (to long) but the more I read your post the more I have to say this. My sifu was not yelling smack as you state. :rolleyes: They were hand picked out of the croud in the stands by so called "grandmaster" Hiang The' to come down and join thier competition (whether team sparring or not it isn't important). When my sifu and the other got down to the ring they got jumped by a bunch of SD people. :( It was all orchastrated & planned out way in advance. Yes this happened 20 + years ago but how would you or your fellow Shaolin Do brothers feel if this had happened to one of thier people such as Elder Master Leonard? You would still harbor feelings of dislike also. There has always been a rival and to some will continue to have emotions regarding that event. You had two big named martial art schools that had been around for many many years whithin the same town. Your going to have a bit of a rivalry. :D

I see your back at it Little Mark......I've been watching you.....your trolling again and the Troll Terminator will come for you:mad:.......remember I know where you are.......DON'T FEAR THE NIGHT........FEAR WHAT HUNTS AT NIGHT:)
TT

[Judge Pen]

I see your back at it Little Mark......I've been watching you.....your trolling again and the Troll Terminator will come for you:mad:.......remember I know where you are.......DON'T FEAR THE NIGHT........FEAR WHAT HUNTS AT NIGHT:)
TT

:rolleyes: this after my attempt to bring this thread back into a constructive place. :rolleyes:

[mkriii]

Golden Tiger........It seems that you have your facts wrong as well. Yes I was wrong in that the tournament was at Lafayette and not L.C.H.S. That much you have right. Last night I was talking to Mark Burgher who was with John Dufresne at this tournament and he remembers it a little differently. It was Mark Burgher, John Dufresne, William Quan, Peter (i think was his first name) Lao, and and girl named Pat (all from Four Seasons). They needed 2 more to complete a group sparr so they picked John as one of the two. Yes you were right in that John was a bloody mess but it wasn't his blood according to Mark Burgher. He says it was from all the SD people he whoooped. John didn't have a scratch on him according to Mark Burgher. He also said that they were not talking smack, just sitting and observing. Care to comment?

[mkriii]

Sorry Judge, had to say my piece. :D Now back on the topic......Judge, can you tell me a little bit about your snake style and the history behind it? Just curious as to your golden snake? Does it come from Southern Shaolin Temple like ours? And what exactly does Golden mean? I've never seen our golden snake or anybody else's for that matter.

[mkriii]

I see your back at it Little Mark......I've been watching you.....your trolling again and the Troll Terminator will come for you:mad:.......remember I know where you are.......DON'T FEAR THE NIGHT........FEAR WHAT HUNTS AT NIGHT:)
TT


TrollTerminator..........Bring it, don't sing it! I'll be waiting for you.

[MasterKiller]

:rolleyes: this after my attempt to bring this thread back into a constructive place. :rolleyes:

Just Wookie at his shennanigans...

[Judge Pen]

Sorry Judge, had to say my piece. :D Now back on the topic......Judge, can you tell me a little bit about your snake style and the history behind it? Just curious as to your golden snake? Does it come from Southern Shaolin Temple like ours? And what exactly does Golden mean? I've never seen our golden snake or anybody else's for that matter.

I wish I could, but I'm not privy to the style. There's been some general history on SD's Golden Snake discussed before, but nothing too specific. As this was GM The's specialty, the general thought among the rank and file is that this is something that GM The' will only teach to his most senior students. I couldn't tell you if he has ever taught anyone any of the Golden Snake.

We have a bit of snake outside of Golden Snake. Specifically Snake PaKua, (which I've just been introduced to) and Liu Sing Snake (which I'll learn later this year). I'm sure there are those that have a better background in snake that could comment more thoroughly than me.

[B-Rad]

And what exactly does Golden mean? I've never seen our golden snake or anybody else's for that matter.
The term's shown up in a number of movies and is the name of some techniques in other styles.

[Judge Pen]

Golden Tiger........It seems that you have your facts wrong as well. Yes I was wrong in that the tournament was at Lafayette and not L.C.H.S. That much you have right. Last night I was talking to Mark Burgher who was with John Dufresne at this tournament and he remembers it a little differently. It was Mark Burgher, John Dufresne, William Quan, Peter (i think was his first name) Lao, and and girl named Pat (all from Four Seasons). They needed 2 more to complete a group sparr so they picked John as one of the two. Yes you were right in that John was a bloody mess but it wasn't his blood according to Mark Burgher. He says it was from all the SD people he whoooped. John didn't have a scratch on him according to Mark Burgher. He also said that they were not talking smack, just sitting and observing. Care to comment?Who wants to jump on this Merry-go-round? :D I've spoken to several people who were there and a few that I believe were objective with no bias. The consensus from my sources were

1. Yes there was a significant amount of heckling by the 4 seasons students during the tournament;

2. Master Leonard did injure his ankle in the tournament (and his mobility was severely limited prior to the fight);

3. things were going all right during the group sparring until one of the 4 seasons individuals got too rough with a female SD black-belt and then it certainly became SD vs. 4 Seasons;

4. Master Hiang stopped the group sparring because of this and Leonard was matched up one on one to John Dufresne;

5. Both fought very well and exchanged good solid techniques. Both were bleeding from blows they incurred from the other; and

6. John got did the better of Master Leonard. It wasn't a but whipping, but John won the fight. :eek:

Maybe it was because of the injury, maybe it wasn't. The point is I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF IT WAS TRUE. Since we weren't there, we are simply repeating the oral history as passed to us. If I know anything from my profession, you can't trust even the best-intentioned testimony even moments after an occurrence because perception and memory degrade anyone's observations. Add the passage of years and one's own bias, and these stories as to what really happened are basically worthless.

I'll say this before I let it go: You are so adamant to point out that your teachers were sitting there showing the utmost respect during the tournament, but yet you have constantly shown very little respect to SD during your postings. Shouldn't that tell you something as to who to believe?

Now can we let this go and actually have a constructive conversation about techniques and training methods again? :D

[Golden Tiger]

Care to comment?


No, I see no need to concerning this.

[Judge Pen]

Drama. Whatever.

Nice post, JP. You're posting style is familiarly diplomatic and well-organized. Is your undergrad in English?

Shane I wish I was smart enough to be an English major. I was a political science/economics major in undergrad. Where's your wife going to grad school? I dated a psychology PhD once. I was in way over my head! :D

[Baqualin]

I think the best thing is to go back to ignoring Mark....nobody really cares about what happened 20 years ago....GM Sin had nothing to do with it anyway and M. Hiang is no longer associated with SD.......so Mark needs to go over to M. Hiang's school and express his beef there.....I'm sure he would love to discuss it with him:D

Hopefully all can get back to an intelligent conversation.
Thanks Shane for being a great representative of the Ng family arts.
BQ

[BM2]

This thread doesn't need another detour. I thought about it yesterday that it was a shame what mrkiii wasted in putting into it instead of something constructive. Hopefully he will consider that in the future. Every group has a mrkiii or three, I just might be one:D
I have seen Master John perform as well as others from 4Seasons and thought that they practiced quite a bit to look as good as they did.

[Baqualin]

This thread doesn't need another detour. I thought about it yesterday that it was a shame what mrkiii wasted in putting into it instead of something constructive. Hopefully he will consider that in the future. Every group has a mrkiii or three, I just might be one:D
I have seen Master John perform as well as others from 4Seasons and thought that they practiced quite a bit to look as good as they did.

I thought this was a Ng Family thread.......I guess we were being to civil:confused:
BQ

[brucereiter]

Circle Walking Eight Energy Palms w/ Inside Change and Outside Change



hi shane,

this is the first thing i was taught in the gao bagua i am now learning. we practice it in combinations like in, in, in, out, in, out, out etc etc ... it has helped my jiang rong qiao bagua practice. do ya'all mix it up like that?

hope the question makes sense ...

[mkriii]

This thread doesn't need another detour. I thought about it yesterday that it was a shame what mrkiii wasted in putting into it instead of something constructive. Hopefully he will consider that in the future. Every group has a mrkiii or three, I just might be one:D
I have seen Master John perform as well as others from 4Seasons and thought that they practiced quite a bit to look as good as they did.

You know, I can't figure out if this is a compliment or a put down. Thank you for saying that the people from 4 Seasons looked good, that part is a compliment. But the part about them practicing as much as they did to look as good as they did has me a bit confused. I can say this though......everyone at 4 Seasons did work out hard and a lot. Almost everyone took thier kung fu & wu shu serious. And they were VERY competitive and wanted to show that they were the best (and they were). They competed at every tournament they could from the US Open to AKA Grand Nationals to Battle of Atlanta to Capital Classic to WACO Nationals. They (meaning John Dufresne, Gary Dezarn, Mark Burgher, Kim Warner, Eric Nesson, Mary The' Fernandez, and Julie Frederick) all were nationally rated either #1 or #2 on the NASKA national circuit (which is the largest and most prestigous circuit). They also competed regionally and most were ranked #1 in thier divisions. I was a little whipper snapper at the time (mid 80's) but I remember what their workouts were like and it looked like pretty intense training.

[mkriii]

Shane...... do you know the monkey baqua form? Is it very long? This is the Baqua form that Frank Sexton started teaching me about a year ago but I never got the chance to go back and learn the rest of it. Now that Frank isn't associated with John Ng (or vice versa) it's a little hard to finish learning. And catching Great Grandmaster Dr. John Ng when he isn't working at the pharmacy is hard to do. Do you know anyone here in Lexington that knows it and would be willing to teach it? What little I do know of it I really like.

[Judge Pen]

Mark, working hard is always a compliment. That's the essence of kung fu. Quit being so sensitive--the only person throwing rocks here is you.

[Judge Pen]

She's going to New Orleans. We're not married yet; the wedding is next year.

Shane

Congratulations.

[brucereiter]

Hi, Bruce,

If I understand you right, the answer is yes, but not at first. We do it that way when we start circle walking with the energy palms, but we spend a lot of time before that doing them in singles with the basic walking posture.

I also noticed that I keep mentioning the energy palms. I know a lot of people use different terminology for stuff so I wanted to make clear that by energy palms I mean the eight integral palms shapes and their associated actions, not the form.

Shane

thanks for the reply shane ...
are these what you are talking about. i just call them the 8 palms ...

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/palmchanges.jpg

[Shaolin Wookie]

Mark, working hard is always a compliment. That's the essence of kung fu. Quit being so sensitive--the only person throwing rocks here is you.

Yes, but if this thread is an indicator of anything, he's throwing his rocks at a brick wall, and they're bouncing back off and giving him a headache.

MARKA SO ANGRY! MARKA SMASH!

[Judge Pen]

Bruce's illustration is right in line with my notes on Jiang Rongqiao's Baguazhang's Palm Methods. Bruce have you referred to Joseph Crandall's translation of JQR's classical text?

[brucereiter]

That's them. We have some very minor differences, but they're substantially the same.

Shane

cool. we have a standing drill where you go through each "palm" over and over. i like it.

[brucereiter]

Bruce's illustration is right in line with my notes on Jiang Rongqiao's Baguazhang's Palm Methods. Bruce have you referred to Joseph Crandall's translation of JQR's classical text?

ahh :-) yes. i like that one. andrea falk has a great book/translation too.

ya know it is funny gmt did a good translation of the "rules" and he split it into 64 points in a very organized way. but some of his translation is silly/funny like "ducks come out as a flock" gmt calls "wild ducks come out as a herd" just little things like that through out his translation. gmt's translation notes have copies the hand drawings that jiangs daughter made for him for his book.

[Judge Pen]

ahh :-) yes. i like that one. andrea falk has a great book/translation too.

ya know it is funny gmt did a good translation of the "rules" and he split it into 64 points in a very organized way. but some of his translation is silly/funny like "ducks come out as a flock" gmt calls "wild ducks come out as a herd" just little things like that through out his translation. gmt's translation notes have copies the hand drawings that jiangs daughter made for him for his book.

I know. I always thought that was interesting. At least we know that GMT was doing his own translation. :)

[mkriii]

Mark, working hard is always a compliment. That's the essence of kung fu. Quit being so sensitive--the only person throwing rocks here is you.

Well, I'm sorry then. I took it the wrong way. Thank you for the compliment on the Four Seasons team on working so hard. It means a lot when other people see it and recognize it.:)

[peace&love]

I have found this thread to be quite interesting, but it has seemed to have filtered out lately. My former sifu use to study with Tom Pardue who studied under Dr. Ng. At least that was my understanding. I also heard that Dr. Ng was a fantastic kung fu guy, but does not teach as much due to personal issues that this forum is probably not the place for discussion in regards to that. My former instructor thought very highly of Dr. Ng's kung fu skills and I am very interested in knowing his current status.
Also, when I was looking for a new school recently to train at, I came across three instructors who claimed to be involved with Dr. Ng at one time. One was Rusty Gray.
It seems that the Ng kung fu family has some inner political issues that has hurt their growth and reputation unfortunately. The people I have spoke with and have met who have been involved with Dr. Ng at one time seem like really good folks, but it seems something may have happened that has really left a sore spot in their hearts. Does anyone have any info on this and is there any word that this supposed riff may be healed? Please don't take my nosiness as a negative. I'm generally concerned because I would hate to see Dr. Ng's forms lost due to politics and bickering.

[mkriii]

I have found this thread to be quite interesting, but it has seemed to have filtered out lately. My former sifu use to study with Tom Pardue who studied under Dr. Ng. At least that was my understanding. I also heard that Dr. Ng was a fantastic kung fu guy, but does not teach as much due to personal issues that this forum is probably not the place for discussion in regards to that. My former instructor thought very highly of Dr. Ng's kung fu skills and I am very interested in knowing his current status.
Also, when I was looking for a new school recently to train at, I came across three instructors who claimed to be involved with Dr. Ng at one time. One was Rusty Gray.
It seems that the Ng kung fu family has some inner political issues that has hurt their growth and reputation unfortunately. The people I have spoke with and have met who have been involved with Dr. Ng at one time seem like really good folks, but it seems something may have happened that has really left a sore spot in their hearts. Does anyone have any info on this and is there any word that this supposed riff may be healed? Please don't take my nosiness as a negative. I'm generally concerned because I would hate to see Dr. Ng's forms lost due to politics and bickering.


Dr. Ng is doing great. I saw him this past Friday. I was in Eastern Ky on business and decided to drop in and see him at his work. He was quite busy at work so I didn't get the chance to spend a lot of time with him. I talked to him for about 15 minutes. As for Rusty Gray, he did study under Dr. Ng. For how long I don't know. Rusty Gray is an excellent teacher. I know him personally. I know that there is no bad blood between any of the Ng family members that I know of. I believe everything has been settled. I studied at Dr. Ng's school for three years then studied under John Dufresne ever since 1989. John Dufresne was and still is one of Dr. Ng's original students and is an 8th level black sash under Dr. Ng. And by the way, I am by no means the official spokesperson for Ng Family Kung Fu. I'm just stating what I know.

[peace&love]

It sounds like all is well. Thank you for giving me an update. I have met Rusty quite a few times and think highly of him. He was a judge at a tournament I participated in and did an excellent job. Also, when I was looking for a new place to study I considered Rusty's school. He is an excellent teacher, but concentrates more on Wing Chun now than Ng Family. Therefore, I decided to study elsewhere because I was more interested in Ng Family at the time. Once again, thanks for your update.

[mkriii]

There is another Ng Family member that teaches down towards Nashville who is really good. His name is Bruce Linville. Did you check him out? He studied under Dr. Ng back in the early 80's. He's good friends with Rusty.

[peace&love]

Yes, I did speak with him briefly about a year ago. He seemed reluctant to take on new students since he teaches out of his home. I believe he did a seminar for Rusty last year. He has a reputation for being a great instructor, but I just felt that he did not wish to instruct me even though he invited me to a meeting. No hard feelings there, just not for me. My personality is to welcome all. Yes, I do get burned on that sometimes, but it is my nature.

[mkriii]

Yes, Master Bruce he did do a seminar at Rusty's school last year. I went down there for it. The seminar was on Chin Na and pressure point attacking. It was a really good seminar. Then the next day my Sifu (John Dufresne) did a seminar on Hsing I Chuan. A good time was had by all.

What made tyou interested in Ng Family Kung Fu? Just curious.

[peace&love]

My former sifu studied with Tom Pardue for many years in Kentucky. One of the styles Pardue taught was Ng Family. My former sifu would show some of the techniques and forms which I found to be quite impressive. My sifu left Pardue to study elsewhere. The kwoon I was attending closed down due to my former sifu having a family issue that he needed to move away and attend to. After that I looked around to study elsewhere and since I knew the Ng name, it was one of the places I researched. Unfortunately, I did not find an Ng school that I felt comfortable with. As I mentioned before, Rusty is a great teacher, but he seems to concentrate on Wing Chun now and Bruce was quite distant. Rusty actually invited me to that seminar set and I heard it was great. I found another instructor in the Nashville area who taught an Ng class, but when I approached him, he wanted to place me in his Kenpo Karate class because it was better financially for him and he sort of bad mouthed Ng in order to promote his Kenpo classes. That really rubbed me the wrong way. I'm not a big fan of the finance before material or saying negative things about other instructors, styles, or systems. I may critique these topics, but not be all out negative. By the way, I don't want you to think that I think bad about Bruce. As I mentioned before, he has an outstanding rep and history. It's just that I believe we were not a good fit student/teacher wise. That does not mean he has not done a great job with other students in the past, present, or future.

[mkriii]

I see. Well, if your ever in the Lexington area give me a shout.

[bakxierboxer]

... John Dufresne was and still is one of Dr. Ng's original students and is an 8th level black sash under Dr. Ng. And by the way, I am by no means the official spokesperson for Ng Family Kung Fu. I'm just stating what I know.

From your post on 5-02-2008:

... Master Dufresne is a 9th level black sash under Grandmaster John Wing Loc Ng.

Which is it?

[mkriii]

He's an 8th or 9th, I know it's one of those. I get his rank and Rusty Gray's mixed up. One's an 8th the other is a 9th.

[bakxierboxer]

He's an 8th or 9th, I know it's one of those. I get his rank and Rusty Gray's mixed up. One's an 8th the other is a 9th.

Some styles it's "easy come, easy go" & I thought there was a chance he'd been "demoted". :rolleyes:

[mkriii]

No I'm afraid not. He's doing better than ever. :)

Sorry to disapoint you.:D

[bakxierboxer]

No I'm afraid not. He's doing better than ever. :)

Sorry to disapoint you.:D

Good for him!

I'm not in the least bit "disappointed", since I actually have no reason to care what his "rank/level" may be.

It's generally the case that, if you're going to talk about your teacher's credentials, you should have a better idea of what they actually are..... otherwise, it's an all too obvious case of "you don't know what you're talking about". :(









:D :D

[mkriii]

Good for him!

I'm not in the least bit "disappointed", since I actually have no reason to care what his "rank/level" may be.

It's generally the case that, if you're going to talk about your teacher's credentials, you should have a better idea of what they actually are..... otherwise, it's an all too obvious case of "you don't know what you're talking about". :(

:D :D

I assure you I know more than you. Also, since my teacher moved away about 5 years ago and I only see him maybe 3 times a year thats why I wasn't so sure on his sash level.

You were the one curious as to if had had been "demoted" I believe you stated. That sounds like to me you are interested in his rank. Make up your mind....are you interested or not. :D

I'm going to start calling you the "John Kerry wanna be" because you flip flop on things just like he did. Oh, I see you are from California.....that explains it. Your probably a liberal as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

bakxierboxer......come on you can think of something to say back can't you? You know you want to say something back to me. :D I dare you. I triple dog dare you. :D

You don't know Pete very well do you?
He's probably behind you right now, contemplate which limb to have for lunch.
LOL !

[sanjuro_ronin]

All I have to say to him is if he feels frogy then jump.

Kids....*shakes head*

[bakxierboxer]

I assure you I know more than you.

Henh!
Actually it's almost a point of pride that I don't know anything at all about your "group(s)".



You were the one curious as to if had had been "demoted" I believe you stated. That sounds like to me you are interested in his rank. Make up your mind....are you interested or not. :D

Nope, more curious as to how someone's student can make one claim about his teacher and, then a few days later, make a dissimilar claim.



I'm going to start calling you the "John Kerry wanna be" because you flip flop on things just like he did. Oh, I see you are from California.....that explains it. Your probably a liberal as well.

I'm the ****hest thing you can imagine from JFKii.

[bakxierboxer]

bakxierboxer......come on you can think of something to say back can't you? You know you want to say something back to me. :D I dare you. I triple dog dare you. :D

If you really want a flame war........

[LarryD]

The 80s tournament again. :rolleyes: I preferred the respectful communications I had with your teacher on that topic. I've spoken to at least three different eye-witness accounts of that event, and it differs from person to person. But as I'm certain that you and I weren't eye-witneeses, we have nothing that we can contribute toward that dead-end discussion.

As for KC, I beleive what's good for the goose is good for the gander. While many SD people do use that thread to communicate and keep in touch, its peppered with comments from people just like you that like to stir things up. You should expect nothing less about Ng here.

As for the topic, I'm sure its real too. I enjoyed seeing some of the clips of your teacher, but I'll confess I have no idea what form or what style he was performing (you know the one with all the stomping). He showed excellent balance, flexibilty, and body control. Care to tell us what for that was, what system its from, and discuss the principles of the form, its trainign methids, fundamanetals of power generation, basic applciations etc so we can gain a persepctive on NG family style?

The 80's tournament is ancient history. And I'm sure my brother John would like to forget it. That was like 24 yrs ago and yes back then John had a big ego. I don't doubt he probably started trouble. He regrets that event ever happening and is so far from the kind of person he was back then. For those of you that know him I should tell you that he is moving to Shenzhen China in a couple of weeks. He has been working for an electronics firm that is based there and was asked to go live there and run the manufacturing facility. He will make trips back home (massachusetts) when ever possible, but I doubt it will be too often. If you want to keep in touch with him install Skype and search the members for John Dufresne. He is on Skype most of the time. Everyone keep working hard and be good. :D

Larry Dufresne

[mkriii]

The 80's tournament is ancient history. And I'm sure my brother John would like to forget it. That was like 24 yrs ago and yes back then John had a big ego. I don't doubt he probably started trouble. He regrets that event ever happening and is so far from the kind of person he was back then. For those of you that know him I should tell you that he is moving to Shenzhen China in a couple of weeks. He has been working for an electronics firm that is based there and was asked to go live there and run the manufacturing facility. He will make trips back home (massachusetts) when ever possible, but I doubt it will be too often. If you want to keep in touch with him install Skype and search the members for John Dufresne. He is on Skype most of the time. Everyone keep working hard and be good. :D
Larry Dufresne

Larry, This is one of John's students from International Kung Fu Academy in Lexington. Does John have a new cell phone number? Or can he be reached by e-mail? I have sent a few e-mails to his address at Portman but I haven't heard from him in about 2 months. Last I spoke with him was when he was going to Germany I believe. If you hear from him tell him Mark Reed said hi. If he wants to call me my number is 859-963-6983. I spoke with Rusty Gray a few days ago and Rusty has his number but misplaced it.

[MasterKiller]

859-963-6983. . That's real smart there, mark. Why not list your SSN to boot?

[mkriii]

That's real smart there, mark. Why not list your SSN to boot?


No, that would be to risky. Well, on the other hand why not....405-31-6790. Syke......LOL. I don't have a problem with my phone number being out there though. It's a cell number and I can just turn it off if someone keeps calling me and annoying me. Besides, I have crazy ex girl friends that call me all the time. It wouldn't be anything I'm not used too. :D

[Old Noob]

why John doesn't return the calls...

[mkriii]

might be out of country right now. I saw and spoke with Dr. Ng about 1 1/2 months ago and he said John Dufresne was in China. He might have been over there getting ready for his move there. Dufresne's cell number is out of service. It's not that he hasn'r returned my calls. Just don't have new number.

[LarryD]

mkriii,

I sent you john's cell number in a PM.

[mkriii]

Larry.....Thanks a lot. Tell John I said hello.

[mkriii]

Larry, whats new? I ran into Chris Spaulding. You know him don't you? He's from up there. He's a sales rep for L.A. Boxing Gym here in Lexington. He's not even really doing anything with martial arts anymore. And he's gained some weight. I guess we've all gained weight......lol. Anyways, just checking out any new posts and wanted to say hi.

[LarryD]

Larry, whats new? I ran into Chris Spaulding. You know him don't you? He's from up there. He's a sales rep for L.A. Boxing Gym here in Lexington. He's not even really doing anything with martial arts anymore. And he's gained some weight. I guess we've all gained weight......lol. Anyways, just checking out any new posts and wanted to say hi.

Hi,

Yes I sure do know Sifu Spaulding. I traveled 50 miles 3 times a week to take his classes in Haverhill, Ma. He was a very good teacher and I respect him a lot. I haven't done much in MA since he closed his school. Tell him I said hi when you talk to him again.

[mkriii]

I'll tell him you said hello.

[Old Noob]

There's an Ng-family stylist who runs a school in Nashville, Shaolin Concepts. Do any of you have any information about this guy? Good instructor? Bad instructor? Says he has his 5th black directly from John Ng. Thanks.

[mkriii]

There are two guys that I know of. Both are extremely good. One is Master Rusty Gray. The other is Master Bruce Linville. Which one is it your talking about?

[mkriii]

Those are the only two I know of in the Nashville area. Rusty Gray is in Old Hickory I think which is right outside of Nashville. Bruce Linville is actually in Nashville I believe. I know both of them really well.

[Old Noob]

David Stephens or Donnavan??? Sound familiar?

[mkriii]

no but I'll check and see if any other Ng members have heard of him. Be leery of any claims. Give me to the end of the day and I'll be able to tell you if he is legit.

[mkriii]

David Stephens or Donnavan??? Sound familiar?

I just checked with two old school students of John Ng and they have not heard of this guy. I didn't think this guy sounded legit. I know most of the higher ranked students of John Ng and his name did not sound familiar. Here is a brief list of some legit instructors: Rusty Gray, Bruce Linville, Tom Pardue, Ricky Pickens, Tim Pickens, Mark Burgher, John Dufresne, Eric Nesson, Gary Dezarn, William Quan, and Billy Barber (doesn't teach but is a black sash under Ng). These are the guys I can think of that learned directly under Granmaster Dr. John Wing Loc Ng. If its not one of these guys be skeptical.

[MasterKiller]

no but I'll check and see if any other Ng members have heard of him. Be leery of any claims. Give me to the end of the day and I'll be able to tell you if he is legit.

Si-Gung David Stephens is a Native American from Nashville, TN U.S.A. ...

Through Master Don Averitt, a well respected colleague, he found himself in the company of Great Grand Master Winglock J. Ng of the Shaolin family lineage. Great Grand Master Ng examined Si-Fu Donnavan closely and decided that he was in fact worthy of his much deserved graduation to the level of Si-Gung ( Master ). So on February 25th, 2006 Great Grand Master Winglock J. Ng along with Grand Master Tim Pickens, Master Tom Pardue, and Master Frank Sexton he received his certification as a Shaolin Master within the Ng family lineage. The Ng family has adopted Si-Gung Donnavan as a member of their family and his life study will continue to prosper with their guidance and understanding. Upon graduating Si-Fu Donnavan to the level of Si-Gung, Great Grand Master Ng had but one request of him. He said, "go do good things". Si-Gung Donnavan, proficient in the Shaolin way of life fully understands this request and what it truly means.


http://www.shaolinconcepts.com/1024/home.htm

[mkriii]

This Donnavan guy is a fraud in my oppinion. The first tip off is the uniform. I can't think of one Ng person that teaches that have thier students wear a Shaolin Monk uniform. Grandmaster Ng wasn't much on uniforms, his students wore kung fu pants and a school t shirt. No formal uniform except for competition. The second thing that makes me think this guy is a fraud is I checked with some old time students from early 1980's and they never heard of the guy. These people I checked with would know because it is this group that were pretty much the main students of John Ng and would carry on his kung fu. I'd like to talk to this Donnavan guy myself and call him on his BS.

[MasterKiller]

Upon accepting his rank of Si-Fu he adopted the gung fu name of "Donnavan" ( dark warrior ).

He goes on to call himself Sigung Donnavan.:rolleyes:

But, he's got a certificate signed by Ng:
http://www.shaolinconcepts.com/content/pdf/Si-Gung_David_Stephens_Certification.pdf

[Old Noob]

This Donnavan guy is a fraud in my oppinion. The first tip off is the uniform. I can't think of one Ng person that teaches that have thier students wear a Shaolin Monk uniform. Grandmaster Ng wasn't much on uniforms, his students wore kung fu pants and a school t shirt. No formal uniform except for competition. The second thing that makes me think this guy is a fraud is I checked with some old time students from early 1980's and they never heard of the guy. These people I checked with would know because it is this group that were pretty much the main students of John Ng and would carry on his kung fu. I'd like to talk to this Donnavan guy myself and call him on his BS.

Looks like he trained under Pickens. Was Pickens one of the people you asked about him? Thanks.

[mkriii]

I saw that he was trained under Pickens. I was wrong. It appears he trained under Master Pickens. BUT he did not personally train under GreatGrandmaster Ng. That's why no one that I talked to knew of him. I was asking people that trained directly under GM Ng. That would probably be like someone asking if they ever heard of some black belt under one of Grandmaster Sin The's students that lives in Colorado.

[peace&love]

I believe he also states he trained under Tom Pardue from Bowling Green. I spoke with this teacher at one time and he said he had only 2 Ng style students. He mainly promotes his Kenpo classes, but I do not think he actually teaches those. I believe Mark is right that Rusty Gray and Bruce Linville are the only legit Ng family teachers in Nashville. Unfortunately, it appears that Sifu Gray has closed down his kwoon. I do not know the story on that, but hope he is healthy and well.

[Old Noob]

I believe he also states he trained under Tom Pardue from Bowling Green. I spoke with this teacher at one time and he said he had only 2 Ng style students. He mainly promotes his Kenpo classes, but I do not think he actually teaches those. I believe Mark is right that Rusty Gray and Bruce Linville are the only legit Ng family teachers in Nashville. Unfortunately, it appears that Sifu Gray has closed down his kwoon. I do not know the story on that, but hope he is healthy and well.

That's interesting. The Shaolin Concepts guy also has Kenpo classes on his class schedule. Sounds like he maybe mixing and matching. Still, he claims 5th black under Ng. Am I wrong to equate that with somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 years of training?

[mkriii]

I believe he also states he trained under Tom Pardue from Bowling Green. I spoke with this teacher at one time and he said he had only 2 Ng style students. He mainly promotes his Kenpo classes, but I do not think he actually teaches those. I believe Mark is right that Rusty Gray and Bruce Linville are the only legit Ng family teachers in Nashville. Unfortunately, it appears that Sifu Gray has closed down his kwoon. I do not know the story on that, but hope he is healthy and well.

Rusty is doing good. I spoke with him about 2 weeks ago. Rusty is teaching at some gym that he rents a space at. I forget the name of the gym. He is jumping on the MMA bandwagon now. He is planning a MMA show sometime in October. I think October 25. I will have to check in with him. He was telling me how big and great this MMA show was going to be, we'll see.


That's interesting. The Shaolin Concepts guy also has Kenpo classes on his class schedule. Sounds like he maybe mixing and matching. Still, he claims 5th black under Ng. Am I wrong to equate that with somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 years of training?

He looks aweful young to be a 5th level black sash. He does show his certificate on his web site though that verifies his rank. I must admit that Greatgrandmaster Ng's signature looks authentic. I've seen John Ng sign a many diplomas and seen his signature enough to know that it is real. Now the question is did he copy the signature over somehow? I don't know. I have never seen the other people signature before. If Ng's is real then I'm sure the others are as well. This guys age is whats making me not so confident in him.

[Old Noob]

Rusty is doing good. I spoke with him about 2 weeks ago. Rusty is teaching at some gym that he rents a space at. I forget the name of the gym. He is jumping on the MMA bandwagon now. He is planning a MMA show sometime in October. I think October 25. I will have to check in with him. He was telling me how big and great this MMA show was going to be, we'll see.



He looks aweful young to be a 5th level black sash. He does show his certificate on his web site though that verifies his rank. I must admit that Greatgrandmaster Ng's signature looks authentic. I've seen John Ng sign a many diplomas and seen his signature enough to know that it is real. Now the question is did he copy the signature over somehow? I don't know. I have never seen the other people signature before. If Ng's is real then I'm sure the others are as well. This guys age is whats making me not so confident in him.

That's what I was thinking. Unless he started very young, he seems to have progressed very quickly, especially if he was studying Ng family style and kenpo at the same time.

[peace&love]

As mentioned before, I spoke with this teacher when I was forced to look for a new kwoon when my old one closed down. He was very sell the product oriented and I felt like I was in the TKD school from when I was younger. He really pushed the Kenpo classes. At the time, I was interested in studying under Rusty Gray, but that did not work out because of my schedule. I made it a point to speak with and work with all the teachers available to me. Donnavan? (I thought it was odd he took on some new name. I forget his real name. He says somewhere on his website that he changed it once he became a master or something.) Anyway, I informed him that I was interested in studying Ng Family style and he said that he does not really like to teach that, but his Kenpo classes are great. I just found it all a bit odd. He has a lot of stuff on his website and is looking to get into Gracie stuff as well. That has been "coming soon" for over a year I believe. If anyone out there is looking to study the Ng family style, they are probably better off working with Rusty Gray.

I believe Donnavan says he studied with Tom Pardue. I know that Pardue left the Ng family system for some time, but I do not know if he is currently involved with them again. He was with Au's Shaolin Arts and left that as well. If Mark is hunting down the facts on this guy, Sifu Gray is probably the best bet to find out the scoop.

[mkriii]

I noticed on Dannavan's certificate he has Pardue's name, Frank Sexton's name (who is no longer associated with Ng family due to internal conflict), GM Tim Pickens' name, and Great Grandmaster Ng's name. Grand master Ng's name looks authentic. The only way to be sure about Donnavan is to check with Tim Pickens or Tom Pardue. Its a shame there isn't a date on that certificate because Frank Sexton has not been affiliated for about 2 years. If he (Donnavan) got that certificate within the past 2 years chances are its a fake. There was some contraversy over Sexton and a tournament that was SUPPOSED to have happened back in 2006 but never did. This cuased a seperation with Sexton and Ng family from what I understood. Hope that helps. :D

[mkriii]

I believe Donnavan says he studied with Tom Pardue. I know that Pardue left the Ng family system for some time, but I do not know if he is currently involved with them again. He was with Au's Shaolin Arts and left that as well. If Mark is hunting down the facts on this guy, Sifu Gray is probably the best bet to find out the scoop.


I don't think Pardue teaches Ng style that much anymore. I'll PM you about that.

[kwaichang]

Rusty Gray used to teach what he called Pai Lum Kung fu until the mid 80's or early 90 's so whats with this other stuff can he be a 5th level by now ?? KC very commercial I would say

[mkriii]

Rusty is an 8th level black sash. I just spoke with Rusty yesterday. He is putting on a cage fight show in Nashville in November. It is going to be at the Wild Horse Saloon on 2nd Avenue. Rusty is doing good. He's running his school and all is fine. He's mainly doing wing chun but still teaches Ng style a little.

[MasterKiller]

Rusty is an 8th level black sash. In which style?

[mkriii]

8th level I believe in Ng Family and high rank in Sil Lum but not sure exactly what level.

[Judge Pen]

Is Rusty Gray going to be fighting in that cage match? If so, who is his opponent?

[mkriii]

Is Rusty Gray going to be fighting in that cage match? If so, who is his opponent?

No I don't think he is, he didn't tell me he was. He just said he was putting on a MMA show at The Wild Horse Saloon in Nashville at the end of October. I think he would have told me if he was fighting in it. He is having some big country singer help promote it and finance it, I forgot who the singer is but he's pretty big from what I can remember thinking.

[Judge Pen]

Apparently its not on the Wild horse's calendar of events.

[mkriii]

Apparently its not on the Wild horse's calendar of events.

Really? I'll have to call Rusty and find out whats going on.

[kwaichang]

Rusty sure talks a good game . always has KC

[mkriii]

Rusty sure talks a good game . always has KC


Yeah he always has been good at talking a good game. I spoke with him again about the Cage fighting at the Wild Horse Saloon and it seems that I had the date wrong. It's November 6th.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah he always has been good at talking a good game. I spoke with him again about the Cage fighting at the Wild Horse Saloon and it seems that I had the date wrong. It's November 6th.

It's probably too soon to have it on the calander:

http://www.wildhorsesaloon.com/index.php?option=com_gigcal&task=calendar&month=11&year=2008&submit=Go%21

[mkriii]

For some reason he wanted it held on a Thursday for some odd reason.

[rattanman]

This is Tom Pardue, and let me shed a little light on Donnovan's certification.

The certificate Donnovan has from John Ng with mine and Tim Pickens signature is authentic. A group of students from my school attended an Ng Family Homecoming seminar in Columbia Ky that was arranged by Frank Sexton, and hosted by Master Pickens and SiFu Jeff Coffey. Donnovan Stevens attended that seminar, and after meeting and interviewing with Dr. Ng, GrandMaster Ng decided to adopt SiFu Donnovan into the Ng Family, and to promote him to 5th Degree Black Sash in recognition of his knowledge and tenure of the Martial Arts. Master Ng asked both Tim Pickens and me to sign and approve the certificate, which of course we did.


Donnovan is a legitimate Kung-Fu SiFu and Black Belt instructor and operates a fine Martial Arts school in Nashville. He is extremely knowledgeable in Southern Praying Mantis and works with refining the teachings of Master Don Averitt (who teaches Southern Mantis at my school). Though the Ng Family Kung-Fu he teaches is just a small part of his curriculum, he is a certified member of the Ng Family

Tom Pardue
www.ewkf.net

[Ngfamilymember]

Good post.

-Ngfamilymember

[peace&love]

I just saw where this will take place at the Wildhorse Saloon on November 25. This was previously discussed by Mark. Those in the Nashville are who are interested can find out more info at Wildhorse's website or they can google Music City MMA for info and tix. Hope this helps anyone who was interested in attending. Take care.

[rattanman]

BREAKING NEWS!!!

Master Wayne T Gist, founder of the Golden Monkey Kung-Fu School, has announced his retirement, effective immediately, and has passed the Golden Monkey School to his senior student, Master Don Averitt. Master Averitt was also promoted to the 9th Degree Black Sash Level at that time

Master Averitt, a Kung-Fu instructor with more than 30 years experience, will assume all responsibilities for the growth and direction of the Golden Monkey School and System.

The School will be headquartered at East West Kung-Fu Academy in Bowling Green Ky, and will become know as "Golden Monkey Kung Fu at East West".

Photos of the ceremony can be seen in the "Photos" section at www.ewkf.net

Congratulations Master Averitt!!!!!!!!!!!!

[John Dufresne]

From your post on 5-02-2008:


Which is it?

Im a white belt - lets get it straight!:)

[bakxierboxer]

Im a white belt - lets get it straight!:)

Actually, that post was around 7/23....

Happy ranking?

[rattanman]

Im a white belt - lets get it straight!:)

Then you are the best **** white belt on earth, my long time Kung-Fu brother

[John Dufresne]

Tommy!!!!

How are you my Brother???
May you and your Family have a wonderful Chistmas and prosperous New Year.

God Bless you my friend!!!

Sincerely
John D
:)

[IronFist]

I only read the first post.

Are you talking about Ng Family Martial Arts in Chicago? They're a good, legit school. My friend is an instructor there.

These guys: http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/

I don't think you are talking about them, tho, cuz none of the names you mentioned looked familiar.

[Ngfamilymember]

No, he was talking about Great Grandmaster John W.L. Ng and his families particular style which also is named "Ng" Family Style. :)

Take care, train hard.
-Ngfamilymember

[Segin]

Stan from the Twin Dragons school in Byrdstown/Albany. Has been good hearing about you guys. I even found some stuff on you tube with Scott Harris and some others.

Awesome!

I met Grandmaster John Ng once. Took a picture with him. Was taught primarily by Scott Harris then by another person (forget his name) and Ricky Pickens. Wished I had kept it up. Can add that to a long list of wishes, ha! Stopped training at Brown sash level, just when I was learning Iron palm and another. Was training snake (Green Bamboo) and learning a higher level snake form. Ohhh, wellll.

Stan M.

[Ngfamilymember]

Stan,

Did you leave me a voicemail about a month back or so...
This is Jeff Coffey, I teach along with Scott Harris.

If so, email me off forum sometime and we'll chat.
jeff_joc@hotmail.com

Hope all is well,
Take care.

[John Dufresne]

He was born in a family that lived by the Law;
a perception of truth: he believed what he saw.
He studied some things as he grew to a man,
Placing his faith in a personal plan.
He set out to study the meaning of Dao;
the more that he learned, he became holier than Thou.
Intrigued by the world and all of its changes,
blindly he mastered, not knowing the dangers.
An ancient world practice called changes of eight
taught him to turn and not to be straight.
He went to a place where all this was taught,
gaining the knowledge for which he had fought.

He got what he wanted, all the way to the end:
a will for himself, with no one to depend;
a concept of truth he thought to be power;
intimidating others and making them cower.
Illusion made it seem he was far and not near;
and before too long, it was all he could hear.
Acquiring this wisdom, he thought understanding,
Seemingly gave him more of a standing.
Using this knowledge to make money and fame;
when wants not received, he was never to blame.
He’d created a world in which he was the King,
and those who did follow, were looking to cling.

He thought he controlled the direction he’d fated,
as time lingered on, he became what he hated.
There once was a time he’d placed value on health;
eventually things changed, and he focused on wealth.
Just when he thought that his kingdom would stand,
the King lost it all from its foundation of sand.
First went his wealth, his business and family;
then went his health, his home and his sanity.
He couldn’t believe that the world he had studied,
deceived even him, and left him so bloodied.
Although he had thought that he’d found the true meaning,
his self-centered ways made life so demeaning.

As years slowly passed, he lost more of an edge;
friends that he kept only mocked what he said.
Promises lost and dreams slowly dwindled;
a victim of those to whom he had swindled.
He’d spent his life mastering what he could see,
but had traveled so far from where he thought he should be.
A perception of life that he thought a true path,
made him a captive to his own form of wrath.
From exalted positions which he had created,
Now destined to ruin was what he had slated.
In time it revealed that he’d lived without seeing,
exposing the truth of a self-centered being.

Forced in seclusion he learned how to hear;
and finally faced all the things he had feared.
Hard for a man who did not know humble,
to reap the reward of his own chosen stumble.
Alone now and looking back into his past,
he attempted to learn what destroyed him at last.
He saw he had lived as a Martial Arts Master;
a deception of life which had first spawned disaster.
Finding it hard to forgive what he’d done,
he finally felt like there was nowhere to run.
Held hostage for years by the things that he did,
he now understood it was what he had bid

He thought of the love and the joy he had missed;
His children, their faces and the last time they kissed.
Tears fill his eyes, but he let them not fall;
so no one would see, he put up this wall.
He thought if it showed, they would think he was weak;
so he built the wall high, to hide and not to seek.
Full of confusion, he could not see the picture;
although he’d been told that the truth was in scripture.
Pain overwhelming, concealed by a grin;
his denial now weakened, they told him again.
Turn to a Power that’s greater than thee;
It’s the only real way to ever be free.

They told him “Find God; He is the answer”;
but acceptance wasn’t easy with things such as cancer.
For these mysteries of life he could not find the truth;
despite all his searching, there just was no proof .
Though evidence was there, he hadn’t even tried,
to turn to the God he’d so fiercely denied.
He discovered a strength which came out of weakness:
a love and forgiveness, that makes new, it’s uniqueness.
He fell to his knees, he wanting to pray;
but his feelings of shame, made him ponder what to say.
A great presence he felt, with no explanation;
then he heard it so clear; the Words as they were spoken:

You now understand that I am who I am;
You faith now relvealed that I came as the Lamb.
I know your remorse for the sins of the past;
receive now this gift; I’ll shine light on your path.
My body and blood, remembrance required;
eternal salvation for you I desire.
One Body and Spirit, my blood in your veins;
I suffered for you so you no longer wear chains.
The debt now is paid, from beginning to last;
now you are free from the sins of your past.

His perspective of life, forever now altered;
misplacing his faith, was where he had faltered.
Receiving the Spirit, it sets us apart;
faith is not blind with a wide open heart.
There are those who will say it’s only opinion,
but his story of truth, confirms His dominion.
Now he will knock, to seek, and to find
the answers to questions confusing his mind.
For years he’d been lost and defied his Creator;
if verdict were passed, he’d have died as a traitor.
He continues to pray, still amazed by his seeing,
transforming him back from that self-centered being.

Now servant, not king, life no longer for bidding;
He’s committed to God is for all of His willing.
Life now restored with much more than before,
renewed childhood dreams by a God who is Lord.
His gifts are experience and knowledge of past,
and his service to Him gives Him Glory at last.
So hear the Good News, for this he now preaches;
study His Word, and keep to His teachings.
He gives Him his life, his heart, and his soul;
the Truth and the Light are no longer untold.
Instead now he shouts to all who will listen:
life only begins at the moment you’re Christian.

After many years of studying Eastern culture philosophy and religions- It all came back around to the Truth.

My study of Martial Arts has been a journey of many years. I got much more than I could have ever imagined.

I asked God for strength, that I might achieve.
I was made weak, that I might learn humbly to obey......
I asked for health, that I might do greater things.
I was given infirmity, that I might do better things.....
I asked for riches, that I might be happy.
I was given poverty that I might be wise......
I asked for power, that I might have the praise of men.
I was given weakness, that I might feel the need of God.....
I asked for all things, that I might enjoy life.
I was given life, that I might enjoy all things......
I got nothing that I asked for-
but everything I had hoped for.
Despite myself, my unspoken prayers were answered-

[OldandUsed]

Excellent post, John. Peace.

[FRANK SEXTON]

Greta post john. Yes its me back from the grave I guess you could say. Anyway 5 things.
1. I'm still teaching
2. Yes there was a miss up with the last tournament that concerned not the theft of money but a money order that was not sent out for $315.00 that was put into a box of class pictures and cetificates that was packed up when I moved the school from one building to another, It was found later after everything happened. Still got the reciept for it.
3. i still see Great Grandmaster Ng and he is teaching me certain things that he didn't teach me before. He is and will always be my teacher and little father.
4. I read all the post from years gone by. How we all fought on here and argued. Dr. Ng taught me a long time ago something that people never see even when it is in front of thier eyes. Even my eyes never saw it until several years ago. This is why I haven't been on here. he taught me no matter what people do or say about you everyone is correct in there own way because we dodn't see things the way they do doesn't make them wrong in thier belief. So with this I apologize to all that I have said things against. In and out of the Ng Family Style.
5. Remember respect and honor each other for one day we may have to stand together against a common enemy for all of us to survive.

As I read the old post it seems the arguing started between us over a tournament in lexington. Everyone remebers different things about it. Everyone has thier oewn side to it. One day in the great great future a video tape of the tournament may be showed but for now I will keep it where it has been for the last 15 years, put up with the other things that Dr. Ng ask me to keep and hold on to until the time is right.


Peace and Honor to all.

And we'll see you all at tournaments for fellowship.

[OldandUsed]

Excellent post. Hope your experience and attitude rubs off on some other folks.