Conditioning and wing chun

[SAAMAG]

How many of you guys have trained to the point of exhaustion, and then tried to use wing chun in free sparring...just to see what would happen?

I did that tonight just for sh*ts and giggles again after a long hiatus, and already knew what would happen...but I'd like to get stories of other's training experiences before I share mine. The result should be the same for everyone, but let's see what sort of answers we get...

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you are not puking, you are not training !
:D

That kind if training is praticularly good for people that tend to "muscle" their opponents.

[SAAMAG]

Or people that simply want to see where their limits are so that those limits can be exceeded.

[Phil Redmond]

Or people that simply want to see where their limits are so that those limits can be exceeded.
Don't know if this qualifies but here's some training for a Lei Tai event:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7NCvZYiDQw

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or people that simply want to see where their limits are so that those limits can be exceeded.

If you truly push yourself, you will always exceed your limits because they will be ever changing.

There are pros and cons to this training of course.

[couch]

How many of you guys have trained to the point of exhaustion, and then tried to use wing chun in free sparring...just to see what would happen?

I did that tonight just for sh*ts and giggles again after a long hiatus, and already knew what would happen...but I'd like to get stories of other's training experiences before I share mine. The result should be the same for everyone, but let's see what sort of answers we get...

Bruce Lee always talked about training your fine motor skills before you get gassed..because you'll have none left! :)

[couch]

Don't know if this qualifies but here's some training for a Lei Tai event:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7NCvZYiDQw

So you gassed them by pushing some guy's truck and then they sparred with each other?

Priceless. :)

[Phil Redmond]

So you gassed them by pushing some guy's truck and then they sparred with each other?

Priceless. :)
Basically. :D
Two of them got first and second place in their very first full contact event. There are some excerpts of their elimination fights and the last event where they were they were supposed to fight each other for 1st & 2nd here:
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/clips.asp
One of them bowed out though since they're from the same school.

[SAAMAG]

Bruce Lee always talked about training your fine motor skills before you get gassed..because you'll have none left! :)

Good point Couch...and that's sort of where I was leading to. Fine motor skills go out the door when you're gassed. The thing I find most beneficial in training like this once in a while is the mental tenacity to keep going as best as you possibly can--it's sort of a slap in the face for those that don't think about the idea that they may actually get tired before the fight ends...and when the techniques go out the door--what do you have left?

BTW Phil...awesome training...

Sanjuro...good points...but I like to sometimes push myself that much more, extreme training that's only done once in a while. I believe it's called shugyo in Japanese.

[Phil Redmond]

Good point Couch...and that's sort of where I was leading to. Fine motor skills go out the door when you're gassed. The thing I find most beneficial in training like this once in a while is the mental tenacity to keep going as best as you possibly can--it's sort of a slap in the face for those that don't think about the idea that they may actually get tired before the fight ends...and when the techniques go out the door--what do you have left?

BTW Phil...awesome training...

Sanjuro...good points...but I like to sometimes push myself that much more, extreme training that's only done once in a while. I believe it's called shugyo in Japanese.
Hi Van, regarding the fine motor skills when gassed. Many people expect to see "perfect" form in fights and full contact events. An example is that boxers sometimes throw wide round punches yet they're trained to throw tight punches. When you're gassed and your heartbeat reaches a certain level "perfect" techniques can go out the window. I used to say a fighter should have done this or done that until I got into the ring for the first time. When people who have never fought trash talk about fighter I laugh.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good point Couch...and that's sort of where I was leading to. Fine motor skills go out the door when you're gassed. The thing I find most beneficial in training like this once in a while is the mental tenacity to keep going as best as you possibly can--it's sort of a slap in the face for those that don't think about the idea that they may actually get tired before the fight ends...and when the techniques go out the door--what do you have left?

BTW Phil...awesome training...

Sanjuro...good points...but I like to sometimes push myself that much more, extreme training that's only done once in a while. I believe it's called shugyo in Japanese.

Shugyo or "austere" training relates more to hardship than intensity, but I know what you mean.
I do a week on week off type of thing.
One week I go balls to the wall at least 3X a week (puking is almost inevitable lol) and the next week its more moderate, though my moderate tends to still be a tad HIIT.

I do recommend probably 2 weeks mod, one week intense for most though.
Always best to have some left in the tank, never wanna have to use your uber-deadly skills and be to tired from working out !
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi Van, regarding the fine motor skills when gassed. Many people expect to see "perfect" form in fights and full contact events. An example is that boxers sometimes throw wide round punches yet they're trained to throw tight punches. When you're gassed and your heartbeat reaches a certain level "perfect techniques can go out the window. I used to say a fighter should have done this or done that until I got into the ring for the first time. When people who have never fought trash talk a fighter I laugh.

Excellent point General Phillipe :D

Form goes out the window when fatigue sets in and in a real fight, that is surprisingly early.

[Phil Redmond]

Excellent point General Phillipe :D

Form goes out the window when fatigue sets in and in a real fight, that is surprisingly early.
My post should have read; "When people who have never fought trash talk about fighter I laugh".
Back to Mavis Beacon . . .:mad:

[jesper]

Many years ago when I started WT it was customary when you trained solo with a teacher that once in a while he would drive you to the point where you could barely lift your arms. then keep hittin and kicking you some more just to toughen you up.
Many a time I remember dangling around just trying to keep my guards up while I got pounded. Great fun, well after a few days of rest anyways :p

In the danish military we have a saying
you can do twice as much as you think. 3 times as much as your buddies think and 10 times as much as your mother think :D

[SAAMAG]

Yep yep...that's the idea I was trying to get across...thanks for the elaboration Phil!

Soooo to expand on the conditioning....

How long of a fight do you each think you could for? Say 2 minute rounds?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep yep...that's the idea I was trying to get across...thanks for the elaboration Phil!

Soooo to expand on the conditioning....

How long of a fight do you each think you could for? Say 2 minute rounds?

Intensity defines pace, look at world class sprinters, how long can they go at full speed ?

[couch]

Intensity defines pace, look at world class sprinters, how long can they go at full speed ?

And whatever activity you train for, consistently, I believe the body adapts. If you're used to 3 minutes of intense activity and then you rest for 10 minutes, I think the body would have a hard time reacting to a 10 minute interval of intense activity.

So, for curiousity's sake, when someone is doing interval training is it best to always mix up the times (eg: HITT/Tabata) so that the body never gets used to feeling comfortable?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only thing the body doesn't adapt to is intensity because as the body "grows" to adapt, your intensity should "grow" too, in theory of course.

Confusing your muscles is an old "trick" for body builders and has recently been done by Strength and performance athletes.
It has pros and cons of course, specificity and all that.
But more often than not, if done correctly, it works way better than almost anythign else out there.

[Liddel]

How many of you guys have trained to the point of exhaustion, and then tried to use wing chun in free sparring...just to see what would happen?

POE ? perhaps not prior to sparring but after for sure.....

Generally speaking when its just me and the other senior guys at my training -
ill begin with pad work - then pumelling crash pad - bridging (holding in pushup position) for three mins - then after a little Gor Sao and then we get right to sparring.

We spar untill someone has had enough which can be up to an hour or so, stop start as we change partners etc. gassing yes / chucking not so much prob right before LOL

This will be twice a week out of four sessions. Ill personally do this once or twice more during a week if my other buddies are keen to train. (this is outside VT)

I often step up the tempo if its been a party week and i need to work off some beer LOL :p

DREW

[chisauking]

POE testing is for girlies!

At our school, we nominate a student to bash each month. A group of us would ambush the nominated student either outside the school or his house. We would all set upon him, bashing him\her (there's no predudice at our school) until they are black and blue. After the beating, the sensi would then test to see whether they are capable of applying their wing chun still.

The reasons\benefit for this test is as follows:

1) To see whether you can still respond after being set upon by a gang, since gang attacks is all too often innner city areas.
2) To see whether they can respond after such a traumatic experience. After all, what good is your wing chun if you can't apply after a state of shock?
3) To see whether your body & mind is tough enough to endure a good beating. Let's face it, no matter how good you are, you are going to get hit in a real fight.
4) To see whether they have the right character\mind & atitude for wing chun training. After all, who wants to wast time training a pu55y?

Disclaimer: if you are thinking of using our method of testing, remember to wear balacavers, since some students just don't have a sense of traditional training and therefore they may sue your a55 if they recognise your group.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have a completely different philosophy when it comes to conditioning. When I would train my WC I would try to do so in as relaxed a mode as humanly possible. My endurance and strength training would be seperated and I would never work until I puked. No reason to do that. If you have not won a fight in 30 seconds you might should consider hauling ass because you probably won't whip him. And especially if you are starting to run out of gas.
2 or 3 minute rounds are not supported by the normal street fighting programs. They just usually start up spontaniously and last until someone is beaten down.
I never could figure out how to actually spar with some one WC without injuring them or getting injured.

[HardWork8]

POE testing is for girlies!

At our school, we nominate a student to bash each month. A group of us would ambush the nominated student either outside the school or his house. We would all set upon him, bashing him\her (there's no predudice at our school) until they are black and blue. After the beating, the sensi would then test to see whether they are capable of applying their wing chun still.

The reasons\benefit for this test is as follows:

1) To see whether you can still respond after being set upon by a gang, since gang attacks is all too often innner city areas.
2) To see whether they can respond after such a traumatic experience. After all, what good is your wing chun if you can't apply after a state of shock?
3) To see whether your body & mind is tough enough to endure a good beating. Let's face it, no matter how good you are, you are going to get hit in a real fight.
4) To see whether they have the right character\mind & atitude for wing chun training. After all, who wants to wast time training a pu55y?

Disclaimer: if you are thinking of using our method of testing, remember to wear balacavers, since some students just don't have a sense of traditional training and therefore they may sue your a55 if they recognise your group.


You have a Wing Chun sensei?

[Mr Punch]

I've trained after heavy lifting sessions (where my fine-motor skills are sometimes so fried I could barely make a cup of tea), after heavy HIIT sessions (the best are when you've really worked your legs till you can barely pull stance, or when you've been hitting tabata pushups until you can't lift your arms) and after running and swimming sprints. My MMA class used to regularly start with more HIIT than I could handle at first.


I have a completely different philosophy when it comes to conditioning. When I would train my WC I would try to do so in as relaxed a mode as humanly possible.I think the point is that if you've worked all your muscles to exhaustion you are as relaxed as you're ever going to be: you simply don't have any energy left, so you can't possibly tense up.


My endurance and strength training would be seperated and I would never work until I puked. No reason to do that.Agreed on the train-till-puke thing. If you're doing that you're eating at the wrong times, or just eating the wrong stuff. I've trained till I've been totally spent but I've never thrown up. Mind you, I have heard that some people have more of a tendency for it than others... maybe it's good self defence to chuck up on your attackers...?! :eek:


If you have not won a fight in 30 seconds you might should consider hauling ass because you probably won't whip him. And especially if you are starting to run out of gas. Again, the point is some people will gas in (or in under!) literally 30 secs whether they've won or not, esp if they're not used to banging in a high-pressure situation, trying to keep their breathing regular etc... so how the hell are you going to haul ass!? I don't understand any reluctance to improve your body and its functioning in general.


You have a Wing Chun sensei?I think he was talking about the bo-staff.

BTW, chisauking, I've done that kind of training before, but wouldn't do it anymore cos I'm a teacher and my head and the school board wouldn't take it very well if turned up in front of the class with my face beaten to ****.

[Phil Redmond]

Yep yep...that's the idea I was trying to get across...thanks for the elaboration Phil!

Soooo to expand on the conditioning....

How long of a fight do you each think you could for? Say 2 minute rounds?
If anyone here was a student in Duncan Leung's school in NYC or their Sifu was they can tell you you about the way we trained WC. Keith Mazza's first WC Sifu also trained there.
so we both know about training WC for real combat. There were times where I did so much chi sao that I couldn't take my shirt off at night. When I sparred I could keep my arms up and fresh longer than my opponents because of that training. We also conditioned our natural weapons. Sifu Cheung and Bruce Lee also came from an intense training background by doing drills over and over and over until exhaustion. In a real fight exhaustion is a big factor because your life can be on the line. You don't get that from low intensity training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If anyone here was a student in Duncan Leung's school in NYC or their Sifu was they can tell you you about the way we trained WC. Keith Mazza's first WC Sifu also trained there.
so we both know about training WC for real combat. There were times where I did so much chi sao that I couldn't take my shirt off at night. When I sparred I could keep my arms up and fresh longer than my opponents because of that training. We also conditioned our natural weapons. Sifu Cheung and Bruce Lee also came from an intense training background by doing drills over and over and over until exhaustion. In a real fight exhaustion is a big factor because your life can be on the line. You don't get that from low intensity training.

Phil has chain punched the correct and finished it off with a toe kick to the prostate.


We need to remember the distinction between TRAINING and PRACTICING.

[couch]

You have a Wing Chun sensei?

Dood...he's kidding. However, those UK WC guys can be HARDCORE. :)

[anerlich]

At our school, we nominate a student to bash each month. A group of us would ambush the nominated student either outside the school or his house.

Might be OK in the UK. In the US, it would be a great way to get shot.

The word you were looking for is: balaclava

[anerlich]

Again, the point is some people will gas in (or in under!) literally 30 secs whether they've won or not, esp if they're not used to banging in a high-pressure situation, trying to keep their breathing regular etc... so how the hell are you going to haul ass!?

Exactly.

According to the Center for Disease Control, you're thousands of times more likely to die from condtions related to a sedentary lifestyle than from a violent assault. If you're REALLY interested in survival like so many sportfighting haters claim to be, you'd better factor that into your training.

[Phil Redmond]

Might be OK in the UK. In the US, it would be a great way to get shot. . . .
Or sued . . .:D

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you have not won a fight in 30 seconds you might should consider hauling ass because you probably won't whip him. And especially if you are starting to run out of gas.

Again, the point is some people will gas in (or in under!) literally 30 secs whether they've won or not, esp if they're not used to banging in a high-pressure situation, trying to keep their breathing regular etc... so how the hell are you going to haul ass!? I don't understand any reluctance to improve your body and its functioning in general.


This is my point exactly. If you start running out of energy in less than 2 minutes you need to revamp your program.
As a young man, my training consisted of more time spent than most people would devote today. 7 days a week, and as much as 6 hours in some days, 4 hours in other days. This is far more than the one or two times a week for a couple of hours of training. Strength and endurance training was consistant and daily. I trained my body hard, and I trained my weapons hard. My hands were very hard. Footwork was trained for hours at a time. I did drills and single technique work as well.
I feel that working yourself to death and then training is going to cause you to lose focus and form. Train very hard, but not until you puke. Train often rather than killing yourself a couple of times a week or month. Then when you are training your WC in a more relaxed state you can train longer and with more focus and form. You have more power and wind to put into your work. I would always end my WC training sessions with a good solid workout.

[RGVWingChun]

Kettlebell training..... ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kettlebell training..... ;)

...is way cool and very effective, as is sand bag training.
Many of the old ways are coming back again, very cool if you ask me.

[RGVWingChun]

I do different things with the kettlebell and alternate between say something like kettlebell cleans and then some sort of punching....stepping and punching, chain punching, biu punches, pole punching, etc....

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are some typical okinawan goju stuff that goes well with keetlebells too.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Research has shown that you need not punch a heavy bag to develop your striking skills. In fact, it can damage your brain. The old time boxers that were considered to be punch drunk from being hit so many time in the head actually turned out to be injured by referal shock from punching the heavy bag. The shock from inpact would travel right back up the arm and shake the brain. That is why Karate guys like the Makawara posts. It is like a diving board sticking up from the floor or ground and has just enough give to absorb the shock of impact.
Another method of hardening hands is to use a 5 gallon plastic bucket of play sand. You drive your hands into the sand fingers first. You might want to laugh, but it will train your hands to maintain perfect form on impact. In the very beginning you will not be able to drive the hands into the sand. And when you do it will cause the fingers to split and open on you. Eventually you will be able to drive the hands up to the wrists in the sand and your hands will be absolutely lethal.
You go to hitting hard objects with your bare hands and by the time you are my age you will not be able to make a good fist.

[Mr Punch]

Research has shown that you need not punch a heavy bag to develop your striking skills. In fact, it can damage your brain. The old time boxers that were considered to be punch drunk from being hit so many time in the head actually turned out to be injured by referal shock from punching the heavy bag. The shock from inpact would travel right back up the arm and shake the brain.LOL :D


That is why Karate guys like the Makawara posts. It is like a diving board sticking up from the floor or ground and has just enough give to absorb the shock of impact.LOL :D


Another method of hardening hands is to use a 5 gallon plastic bucket of play sand. You drive your hands into the sand fingers first. You might want to laugh, but it will train your hands to maintain perfect form on impact. In the very beginning you will not be able to drive the hands into the sand. And when you do it will cause the fingers to split and open on you. Eventually you will be able to drive the hands up to the wrists in the sand and your hands will be absolutely lethal.LOL :D


You go to hitting hard objects with your bare hands and by the time you are my age you will not be able to make a good fist.LOL :D

Lolorama!

Thank you so much!

[SAAMAG]

Research has shown that you need not punch a heavy bag to develop your striking skills. In fact, it can damage your brain. The old time boxers that were considered to be punch drunk from being hit so many time in the head actually turned out to be injured by referal shock from punching the heavy bag. The shock from inpact would travel right back up the arm and shake the brain. That is why Karate guys like the Makawara posts. It is like a diving board sticking up from the floor or ground and has just enough give to absorb the shock of impact.
Another method of hardening hands is to use a 5 gallon plastic bucket of play sand. You drive your hands into the sand fingers first. You might want to laugh, but it will train your hands to maintain perfect form on impact. In the very beginning you will not be able to drive the hands into the sand. And when you do it will cause the fingers to split and open on you. Eventually you will be able to drive the hands up to the wrists in the sand and your hands will be absolutely lethal.
You go to hitting hard objects with your bare hands and by the time you are my age you will not be able to make a good fist.

I'm sorry....but this HAS to be a joke, right?

[anerlich]

Research has shown that you need not punch a heavy bag to develop your striking skills. In fact, it can damage your brain. The old time boxers that were considered to be punch drunk from being hit so many time in the head actually turned out to be injured by referal shock from punching the heavy bag. The shock from inpact would travel right back up the arm and shake the brain.

Oh sure, and you're about to provide us with a link to a double blind study included in this "research", right?

This has about as much credence as my cats dim mak'ing me when they walk over my chest.

Research has shown that you are full of it.

[KPM]

Research has shown that you need not punch a heavy bag to develop your striking skills. In fact, it can damage your brain. The old time boxers that were considered to be punch drunk from being hit so many time in the head actually turned out to be injured by referal shock from punching the heavy bag.

----You're going to have to back that one up! Research by who? Brain damage from "shock" is caused by either the brain twisting on its central axis from a rotary force, or bouncing against the walls of the skull from a forward/backward force. None of this happens when striking a bag because the muscles supporting the neck and head are tensed at the time. If they weren't, your head would be flopping all over the place. That's how people are hurt during car crashes...because their heads go flopping all over the place. That's what headrests and airbags are designed to prevent. If the minimal amount of shock associated with hitting a bag could cause damage, then we would be getting the same damage from running, stepping wrong off a curb, stumbling when walking, etc. If you aren't seeing the study and the data that backs it up for yourself, try to use a little common sense before believing and passing on everything you read or hear.

[couch]

Research has shown that you need not punch a heavy bag to develop your striking skills. In fact, it can damage your brain. The old time boxers that were considered to be punch drunk from being hit so many time in the head actually turned out to be injured by referal shock from punching the heavy bag.

----You're going to have to back that one up! Research by who? Brain damage from "shock" is caused by either the brain twisting on its central axis from a rotary force, or bouncing against the walls of the skull from a forward/backward force. None of this happens when striking a bag because the muscles supporting the neck and head are tensed at the time. If they weren't, your head would be flopping all over the place. That's how people are hurt during car crashes...because their heads go flopping all over the place. That's what headrests and airbags are designed to prevent. If the minimal amount of shock associated with hitting a bag could cause damage, then we would be getting the same damage from running, stepping wrong off a curb, stumbling when walking, etc. If you aren't seeing the study and the data that backs it up for yourself, try to use a little common sense before believing and passing on everything you read or hear.

The voodoo doctor over here agrees too. I may work with energy or Qi, but I'm not going to completely negate western concepts.

I own a little 'compendium' book on Wing Chun, not naming names, and it mentions not to punch the sand bag too hard because it will hurt your heart. While I can understand that the Heart and Triple Warmer channels could be battered because of punching with the last three knuckles, in my opinion, it's more important to stress my structure than worry about my Qi at this time. :)

I think the metaphors and the folk-medicine pattern diagnosis have value in my clinic in regards to health...but shouldn't be taken out of context.

Best,
Kenton

[SAAMAG]

The voodoo doctor over here agrees too. I may work with energy or Qi, but I'm not going to completely negate western concepts.

I own a little 'compendium' book on Wing Chun, not naming names, and it mentions not to punch the sand bag too hard because it will hurt your heart. While I can understand that the Heart and Triple Warmer channels could be battered because of punching with the last three knuckles, in my opinion, it's more important to stress my structure than worry about my Qi at this time. :)

I think the metaphors and the folk-medicine pattern diagnosis have value in my clinic in regards to health...but shouldn't be taken out of context.

Best,
Kenton

Hey! I have have the book as well! There's a lot of stuff in there that is questionable is regards to the non wing chun specific information. But hey...it's all in good fun, right?

[couch]

Hey! I have have the book as well! There's a lot of stuff in there that is questionable is regards to the non wing chun specific information. But hey...it's all in good fun, right?

Yah. I trained (VERY) briefly with him when I was in Calgary, just to check him out. He's very good with his stuff. Not my cup of tea, but I got my book autographed to support the WC cause. :)

[Lee Chiang Po]

I am sorry that I do not have the sources to back that up, but this was all back before most of you and while others of you were still crapping yellow, so most of it is now just forgotten. Every few generations things are again revived or invented that were popular or well known several generations back. I guess that if it afforded someone a good laugh it was worth something. However, for you young guys that are banging away on stuff, you still have a way to go before you come to realize the wisdom of what I am saying. But by then you will have forgotten, and it will be to late to stop doing it. I can say for certain that my own hands have suffered from this and for the most part I can not make a fist with my right hand. Some need to be convinced, but ignorance to these things will not protect you.

[anerlich]

I am sorry that I do not have the sources to back that up

The credible sources to back it up are unlikely to exist.


However, for you young guys that are banging away on stuff, you still have a way to go before you come to realize the wisdom of what I am saying.

I'm 53, and don't need to be patronised by self-appointed wise elder spokesmen who aren't perhaps as old or wise as they like to think, thank you. I've been punching bags for 30 years without trouble, I still manage to make a good living in IT, brain and fingers, and my instructors have been doing it at least as long as me and their cognitive and neurological functions are just fine. I've never heard of anyone suffering in the manner you describe ... and bet I never will, other than for unsubstantiated fiction as we have witnessed here.


I can say for certain that my own hands have suffered from this and for the most part I can not make a fist with my right hand.

That's unfortunate, but also highly unrepresentative. If you want to see real hand damage, look at those karate guys that smash concrete and ice.


Some need to be convinced, but ignorance to these things will not protect you.

Ignorance is hard to protect against, however we hopefully have some chance of protecting others from swallowing unsubstantiated rubbish such as that spouted by yourself in this instance.

[Phil Redmond]

If you use some sort of herbal liniment afterwards you'll have no trouble.
I'm 60 and it hasn't bothered me. I can still make a good fist. ;)

[kamikaze]

trained like that under my Sifu Ken Widman. It really did wonders for my shoulders. High intensity training should be incorporated in your training regimen in order to really understand and push the limits of your body. There are so many aspects in a conflict, and one should be prepared to deal with it all. Some fights are going to last 10 seconds, and others 2 minutes or longer. You have to be prepared for almost anything in a fight. Period.

The way I spar in striking is the same as grappling; Six 4-minute rounds with a minute break in between every other day. It started off as just 2 4-minute rounds, but my cardio improved, and I can go longer. Depending on the day, I can go almost 45 minutes under high intensity training. I still have a long way to go though.

Excellent videos, and I tip my hat off to you Mr. Redmond. To still be training in the wicked style at 62 is an accomplishment. I also seen some pictures of you online back in the day. You and Chueng were ripped.


If anyone here was a student in Duncan Leung's school in NYC or their Sifu was they can tell you you about the way we trained WC. Keith Mazza's first WC Sifu also trained there.
so we both know about training WC for real combat. There were times where I did so much chi sao that I couldn't take my shirt off at night. When I sparred I could keep my arms up and fresh longer than my opponents because of that training. We also conditioned our natural weapons. Sifu Cheung and Bruce Lee also came from an intense training background by doing drills over and over and over until exhaustion. In a real fight exhaustion is a big factor because your life can be on the line. You don't get that from low intensity training.

[KPM]

I am sorry that I do not have the sources to back that up, but this was all back before most of you and while others of you were still crapping yellow, so most of it is now just forgotten. Every few generations things are again revived or invented that were popular or well known several generations back. I guess that if it afforded someone a good laugh it was worth something. However, for you young guys that are banging away on stuff, you still have a way to go before you come to realize the wisdom of what I am saying. But by then you will have forgotten, and it will be to late to stop doing it. I can say for certain that my own hands have suffered from this and for the most part I can not make a fist with my right hand. Some need to be convinced, but ignorance to these things will not protect you.


But you don't seem to have any brain damage.......????????

[Phil Redmond]

My first week back on the forums, and I'm already laughing my rear end off - LCP is apparently a Past Grand Master of Super High Intensity Training, possibly even the Banged-Up Long Line style...

Me, I likes a little intensity in my training - if you don't work hard in training, you'll pay for it in the ring (or real world, depending).

As I learned in Sifu Phil's alma mater, "the more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in war."

Speaking of which, he and Master Cheung aren't all that far away from me now. Hmm...

Thinkin' again, time to train!

SF,
afm

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