Why you don't need forms...

[MasterKiller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65VcABUzr8

[Mook Jong]

I pity the kid who gets into a playground fight with him, that kid is amazing

[kwaichang]

Focus pads dont hit back KC

[MasterKiller]

Focus pads dont hit back KC

Neither does the air.

[shadowlin]

Technically both apply the same force.

Both have merits. Why do people insist that things are one way or the other? They are both, depending on what you want and what you need.

Forms are good and hitting things are good and grappling is good and sparring is good and sticking hands is good.

It's all good.:)

[Samurai Jack]

:D

That was a nice example of a form.

And wow.

[kwaichang]

If he did forms he prob wouldnt lift his elbow prior to Jabbing. When you hit something for the sake of speed you will develop poor tech habits the samee applies to seeking power only. Most have the wrong concept of what true power is. KC

[shadowlin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65VcABUzr8

I am not sure how this proves your point. All I can think of is how much more amazing he'd be with forms and teachers who really grasped the forms (which I'll give you is a rare thing). He's fantastic, no doubt about it. Will eclipse most all of us in our lifetimes.

But maxed out? It's really debatable.

You know Tony Jaa has had forms and traditional teachings. Would anyone argue that he isn't fantastically beyond most considered limits of human ability?

Also, Bruce Lee had forms. You just never know what forms do for you until you've had them.... and some will never know.

edit: considering most people lose power in the feet to start with, true power is rarely, if ever attained. I've seen few examples of it. Fortunately for all of us, true power is overkill if you know what to hit.


You know all NBA teams use forms - in the style of plays - and would anyone argue they aren't the cream of the crop in basketball perfection?

You know that olympic swimmers have forms and techniques they practice? And boxers use routine sets of strikes into the air.

There are many styles of forms. I don't see how the lack of learning forms proves their ineffectiveness.

[Yao Sing]

Hey MK, you remember the video posted awhile back with the little kid rolling with his dad in the living room? That would go nice with this clip.

[golden arhat]

Focus pads dont hit back KC

yes they do.

[Shaolin Wookie]

You know Tony Jaa has had forms and traditional teachings. Would anyone argue that he isn't fantastically beyond most considered limits of human ability?


Also, Bruce Lee had forms. You just never know what forms do for you until you've had them.... and some will never know.



1. Tony Jaa has "forms" that "look cool" and tranlate to "cinematic imitation by real-life MA's" who have "unreal expectations" of "forms" that "look cool". I agree he's fantastically talented. He's in great shape, he "looks" like he hits hard, and he can do great gymnastics. But he practiced wushu, capoeira, and parkour. Then, he and Panni Rittikrai decided--hey, what if we made Muay Thai "LOOK LIKE IT WAS THE COOLEST", and they tailored it up with the frills and lace of parkour, wushu, gymnastics, and capoeira.

But if you stuck him in the ring with the average fifteen year old Thai amateur, I'm not convinced he'd walk out of the ring with both legs intact. Again, the disconnect between cinema and reality is astounding here.

2. Bruce had forms, and sometimes he used some of the movements in his movies, like everything in his movies, "BECAUSE THEY LOOK LIKE THEY ARE LIKE THE COOLEST THING ON THIS GREEN EARTH"....LOL....

Bruce hit bags, worked with live resisting opponents, etc. Note: He scrapped forms altogether. It's not that his forms made him great. Perhaps scrapping forms and fighting/sparring/hitting bags made him great.

[monji112000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65VcABUzr8

wow he is going to beat the living crap out of some kid. I can see the lawsuits ...

LOL I like the idea of kids doing forms and not actually learning how to fight.

[Becca]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65VcABUzr8
Mia could take him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLLpe1791oY&feature=related

[Becca]

wow he is going to beat the living crap out of some kid. I can see the lawsuits ...

LOL I like the idea of kids doing forms and not actually learning how to fight.
Agreed. As has been proven time and time again, most people need to be taught how to extract the fighting technique from forms, which makes them perfect for kids. You can teach them the techniques, train thir bodies, but hold off teaching them how to actually use them untill they are old enought to use them wisely.


MK, did we really need yet another thread about forms having no value to you? Couldn't you have just made this about a seriously talented kid?

[David Jamieson]

anybody who had that level of training, skill and familial commitment at 5 years old raise your hand.

he appears to be receiving good training geared towards him as a kid.

I am totally ok with this and I admire the kid for his moxy.

if he is full contact sparring at his age, I would rethink that entirely seeing as he is growing and its a good way to cause major problems for him later.

otherwise, cool.

p.s strung combos are forms. and focus mitts while not resistence training are not the same as hitting air. You get push back from your partner to feedback force to you. It's not as intense as pads or heavy bags, but it is about focusing the strikes and aligning the mechanics of the body...which is...well, form work.

[mawali]

Shuaijiao is as excellent an art after 3 years study because all the pre-requisite shenfa and liangong training methods are contained therin and there is no qi BS or learnign form after form and still be clueless as to martial spirit and understanding!

[David Jamieson]

ok, now you are dealing with the parameters of the context: in other words, a combination of a few techniques done against pads could be construed as "form", but the difference is that there is resistance, there is a limit to the # of moves, and there is no belief that you are doing one thing while "secretly" training to do another;

well, not exactly what I was saying.

people get all caught up in the idea that forms are 100+move dance routines from given styles of martial arts.
there are very simple forms that have maybe 5 moves, albeit repeated that are merely "drills" of combination techniques.

when boxers do routines of jab jab, jab cross, jab cross hook uppercut etc etc and drill those techs, this is tantamount to forms with a limited variety of techniques due to the fact that those are the allowable techniques in the sport of boxing.

when you drill structure and technique together, you are working on teh shape of the technique, you are working on form.

whether or not you apply more is the only difference between schools.

everyone practices form no matter what the martial art. You cannot have technique without shape and practice of that shape whether its one move or 20.

[shadowlin]

1. Tony Jaa has "forms" that "look cool" and tranlate to "cinematic imitation by real-life MA's" who have "unreal expectations" of "forms" that "look cool". I agree he's fantastically talented. He's in great shape, he "looks" like he hits hard, and he can do great gymnastics. But he practiced wushu, capoeira, and parkour. Then, he and Panni Rittikrai decided--hey, what if we made Muay Thai "LOOK LIKE IT WAS THE COOLEST", and they tailored it up with the frills and lace of parkour, wushu, gymnastics, and capoeira.

But if you stuck him in the ring with the average fifteen year old Thai amateur, I'm not convinced he'd walk out of the ring with both legs intact. Again, the disconnect between cinema and reality is astounding here.

2. Bruce had forms, and sometimes he used some of the movements in his movies, like everything in his movies, "BECAUSE THEY LOOK LIKE THEY ARE LIKE THE COOLEST THING ON THIS GREEN EARTH"....LOL....

Bruce hit bags, worked with live resisting opponents, etc. Note: He scrapped forms altogether. It's not that his forms made him great. Perhaps scrapping forms and fighting/sparring/hitting bags made him great.

I honestly am astounded by your belief that I was talking about their cinematic personas.:confused:

Bruce Lee was not the baddest thing to walk the Earth, but he was a fighter and was constantly challenged and his record wasn't too bad. It was actually, impressive. He knew more than just screen choreography. I don't think you can ever say what specifically made Bruce good except for his will and attitude. Anything else - and you have to admit it's true if you're honest - is opinion based on bias towards one paradigm or another. My paradigm says the forms gave him an edge in his foundation forming, and you think the edge came from his liberation from them. Are they necessarily mutually exclusive? (another point I brought up elsewhere)

Tony Jaa I have seen outside of the cinematic setting, and the guy has complete body awareness, and that's what I'm talking about. Fighting isn't all that matters. And my reference here is that his movements are only so good because of a solid mixture of forms in his foundational period, application, and proper exercises.

Last, though, is that I used those examples because people can picture them in their head. I could talk about Joe Blow, but few people know who he is, so what's the point?

Aside from that, SW, I made it pretty clear what I think of choreography in another post, you should read it, because there is no disconnect... I don't see choreography as equal to UFC. I addressed this elsewhere.

[shadowlin]

well, not exactly what I was saying.

people get all caught up in the idea that forms are 100+move dance routines from given styles of martial arts.
there are very simple forms that have maybe 5 moves, albeit repeated that are merely "drills" of combination techniques.

when boxers do routines of jab jab, jab cross, jab cross hook uppercut etc etc and drill those techs, this is tantamount to forms with a limited variety of techniques due to the fact that those are the allowable techniques in the sport of boxing.

when you drill structure and technique together, you are working on teh shape of the technique, you are working on form.

whether or not you apply more is the only difference between schools.

everyone practices form no matter what the martial art. You cannot have technique without shape and practice of that shape whether its one move or 20.

Exactly. Thank you.

[Samurai Jack]

well, not exactly what I was saying.

people get all caught up in the idea that forms are 100+move dance routines from given styles of martial arts.
there are very simple forms that have maybe 5 moves, albeit repeated that are merely "drills" of combination techniques.

when boxers do routines of jab jab, jab cross, jab cross hook uppercut etc etc and drill those techs, this is tantamount to forms with a limited variety of techniques due to the fact that those are the allowable techniques in the sport of boxing.

when you drill structure and technique together, you are working on teh shape of the technique, you are working on form.

whether or not you apply more is the only difference between schools.

everyone practices form no matter what the martial art. You cannot have technique without shape and practice of that shape whether its one move or 20.

Hear, hear. It's good to have gotten that out of the way. So often we get caught up in definitions that the original purpose of the discussion is lost. As has been said on numerous occassions, if you see a reason to argue about the need for forms, you don't understand what they are.

[kwaichang]

If the opportunity presents itself you will use the for 1,2, or 7 who knows how many tech one may use from the form.

I can just see some old Sifu looking at this BB and just shaking his head "they just dont get it" and laughing KC:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice clip MK.
The kid had some nice skills, kept his hands up, punched like you punch when you are actually hitting something, I feel for his dad's knees !
LOL!
There are some very awesome kids out there, not just boxing or BJJ, but wrestling too and in Judo.
Its in the genes baby !

[jow yeroc]

Awesome! I think lil man is the bees knees. And while grown men are
yapping back and forth about forms, this kid is training and I'm sure neither
he or his dad give a s h it about anyone here's perception or conception of
"forms".:rolleyes:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Sometimes, we lose sight of the "mental" training that "good" formwork accomplishes.. depending on the form and teacher of course, the "solo" work trains the mind as well as the body.. everything begins in the "mind". Do your forms as though the were an opponent, fight as if there weren't anyone there.. which is to say that if we start reacting to the opponent they start controlling us.. be willing to be hit so you can execute your intent.. that is a core value of "form". that when you get hit, when you can taste your pulse, when your vision is blurred and your head is ringing.. the patterning of well trained forms kicks in, you are running on instinct.. doing something other than becoming a punching bag.. when your vision is blurred or you just can't "feel" the moment, turn a form loose.. if you have no options in reserve, your game is compromised..

Be well..

[Becca]

I meant in the same exact order as in the form; I could see 1, 2 maybe 3, but beyond that it's gets increasingly unlikely
So your objection to forms is that they are a string of drills strung together and executed the same way every time?

[shadowlin]

So your objection to forms is that they are a string of drills strung together and executed the same way every time?

If it is, that's ridiculous because forms should of course be broken up and studied, varied, and blended.

You keep the form intact for teaching, not for learning. Anyone here attempting to argue that fights happen as a form progresses?

[MightyB]

Prodigies are only prodigies when they are children. Eventually people catch up- and then they are just "normal".

All this doesn't matter 'cuz you can't know if he's tough. Some people are just tuff. He could have all of these fundamentals down and some other kid could just slam him into the corner and skull f--- him for the next 2 and a half minutes and his boxing career is essentially over if he's not tuff.

[monji112000]

So your objection to forms is that they are a string of drills strung together and executed the same way every time?

forms are like scales in music. Its fine to practice scales, but that alone will never even get you remotely near being able to play with band. Its true that many amazing jazz musicians improvise of scales, and melodic phrases , but these guys are often above the average person. without basic timing(rhythm) practice, and many other things.. you can't really improv with a group. Allot of people even skip the whole scale, and "technique" learning and just focus in the improv.. feeling things out.
some people just like learning scales and playing them alone.. thats fine too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Prodigies are only prodigies when they are children. Eventually people catch up- and then they are just "normal".

All this doesn't matter 'cuz you can't know if he's tough. Some people are just tuff. He could have all of these fundamentals down and some other kid could just slam him into the corner and skull f--- him for the next 2 and a half minutes and his boxing career is essentially over if he's not tuff.

Not sure what your point is, I mean, MK put the clip up, I assume, to show that forms ( prearranged choreagraphed moves done into the air) are not needed to develop skills.
Which is widely accepted as a fact.
Zero to do with "toughness".

[MightyB]

the point is that you can't prove or disprove the validity of forms because--- some people are just tuff.

It's like how everyone is raging about the effectiveness of MMA 'cuz of what they see on TV. They're seeing tuff people on TV and tuff people are attracted to MMA 'cuz of TV. Doesn't mean that it's the greatest schiznit, just shows us some tuff people wailing on each other. These people would be tuff no matter what style or lack of style you put them in. They're just tuff. We all know "that one guy" who could beat the living schiznit out of us no matter how much wrestling training, boxing, or karate we practiced. Well, that "one guy" is common and a lot of those "guys" are on TV doing MMA.

[MasterKiller]

the point is that you can't prove or disprove the validity of forms because--- some people are just tuff.

It's like how everyone is raging about the effectiveness of MMA 'cuz of what they see on TV. They're seeing tuff people on TV and tuff people are attracted to MMA 'cuz of TV. Doesn't mean that it's the greatest schiznit, just shows us some tuff people wailing on each other. These people would be tuff no matter what style or lack of style you put them in. They're just tuff. We all know "that one guy" who could beat the living schiznit out of us no matter how much wrestling training, boxing, or karate we practiced. Well, that "one guy" is common and a lot of those "guys" are on TV doing MMA.

Incorrect.

[MightyB]

Incorrect.

Correct

http://www.youtube.com/EhsanShafiq

watch any of his fights.

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA is popular because its popular with the "average joe"and its on TV and gets a lot of press, just that simple.
MMA is popular with trainees because it not only works for almost everyone, its easy to learn, its fun, has very little "cultural garbage" attached to it and it has something for everyone.
I know quite a few guys that do MMA, even some that compete at the higher levels and yes, they are tough SOB's, but I know just as tough if not tougher in some local "unknown" dojo's and kwoons.
Sure sport combat systems attract people that like to fight or at least are physical, but the question is,why don't TMA do that ANYMORE ?
They certainly used to...

[MasterKiller]

Correct

http://www.youtube.com/EhsanShafiq

watch any of his fights.

:rolleyes:I can point you to about a bizillion other links to back my claim, but I'm not going to take the time.

Modern formless training focused on technique and conditioning produces better fighters faster than traditional methods.

Judo, Muay Thai, San Shou, Wrestling, Boxing, BJJ do not need forms and all produce highly-skilled fighters using the same methodology.

Most TMA schools have one guy that "gets it" and can fight. If that's all you can point to, then I hope for your sake you are that "one guy" if you ever need it.

[David Jamieson]

man....

hmmm, i think the terminology of forms and the stylistic differences are the stumbling blocks for the people who seem to be against form practice.

It's all good, but you will wind up contradicting yourself.

You cannot have structure without form, you cannot have optimum force without form practice be it one punch, three in a row or 15 with a qigong thrown in between to get breathing up or to work on a particular attribute.

not to mention the vast array of different forms that are out there.

xingyi forms are compact and contain only a few techniques. some people may even look at a shape and say "oh that's just a drill not a form" which of course is an erroneous thing to say because a drill IS Formwork!

pads and bags are separate and everyone learnbs the shape in the air first then onto resistance training, devices, partners etc etc.

even pro boxers do combinations and freeform shadow boxing to loosen up, dynamic or ballistic stretching can contain particular shapes needed to get the result and so on.

If my combinations strung together are not form work, or working on the correct structure for an optimum use of a technique is not form work, then I am not sure what "forms" you guys are talking about?

are you talking about set # 15 from such and such a curriculum? are you talking about the whole of martial arts? Chinese only? Japanese? Thai? Burmese? I don't know what you are referring to unless you are just really wanting to rub out the practice of forms in general.

which would be not such a good thing in my opinion.

anyway, a "old one two" is a boxing form, its a jab cross usually. 2 moves. It's called a one two. It's sometimes called a drill. It's in shadow drills, pad work, bags and gets used in the ring.

so no ones ever used a triple combo out of their sets in san shou? How do you effectively learn all the techniques you can legally use there without practicing those techniques?

how do you learn any technique at all without understanding it's shape in context to your body, your energy and your ability to do the techniques?

i think it is a matter of terminology. I'd also say there is crap and ineffective training in all martial arts including modern boxing, mma et al.

Anyway, it's about doing and being.

[sanjuro_ronin]

man....

hmmm, i think the terminology of forms and the stylistic differences are the stumbling blocks for the people who seem to be against form practice.

It's all good, but you will wind up contradicting yourself.

You cannot have structure without form, you cannot have optimum force without form practice be it one punch, three in a row or 15 with a qigong thrown in between to get breathing up or to work on a particular attribute.

not to mention the vast array of different forms that are out there.

xingyi forms are compact and contain only a few techniques. some people may even look at a shape and say "oh that's just a drill not a form" which of course is an erroneous thing to say because a drill IS Formwork!

pads and bags are separate and everyone learnbs the shape in the air first then onto resistance training, devices, partners etc etc.

even pro boxers do combinations and freeform shadow boxing to loosen up, dynamic or ballistic stretching can contain particular shapes needed to get the result and so on.

If my combinations strung together are not form work, or working on the correct structure for an optimum use of a technique is not form work, then I am not sure what "forms" you guys are talking about?

are you talking about set # 15 from such and such a curriculum? are you talking about the whole of martial arts? Chinese only? Japanese? Thai? Burmese? I don't know what you are referring to unless you are just really wanting to rub out the practice of forms in general.

which would be not such a good thing in my opinion.

anyway, a "old one two" is a boxing form, its a jab cross usually. 2 moves. It's called a one two. It's sometimes called a drill. It's in shadow drills, pad work, bags and gets used in the ring.

so no ones ever used a triple combo out of their sets in san shou? How do you effectively learn all the techniques you can legally use there without practicing those techniques?

how do you learn any technique at all without understanding it's shape in context to your body, your energy and your ability to do the techniques?

i think it is a matter of terminology. I'd also say there is crap and ineffective training in all martial arts including modern boxing, mma et al.

Anyway, it's about doing and being.

I am pretty sure that when some one mentions "forms" that they are referring to pre-arranged/determined choreographed set moves done into the air.
No one has issues or questions the value of the "form" a technique takes when it is being applied properly.

[MightyB]

I am pretty sure that when some one mentions "forms" that they are referring to pre-arranged/determined choreographed set moves done into the air.
No one has issues or questions the value of the "form" a technique takes when it is being applied properly.

If that were true- this thread wouldn't exist. :p

[David Jamieson]

I am pretty sure that when some one mentions "forms" that they are referring to pre-arranged/determined choreographed set moves done into the air.
No one has issues or questions the value of the "form" a technique takes when it is being applied properly.


maybe so, but I think that somehow there is a disconnect because people also seem to attach having to use the exact sequence as tha bad part for some reason.

yes, a form is a prearranged sequence. But it is made up of bits and pieces and strung together so that movement can take place logically and without interrupting practice.

the form itself is 2 parts +3 parts +1part +1part + 4 part +2parts and so on.

depending on how you learn it, you will pull those parts out at some time and drill them into mitts on bags, in the air and use it in si yao da/ san da in your school.

If you neglect the whole of the martial art you are studying, then you are only getting part of a martial art. IE: if all you have is form, well, to me, that's better than nothing at all and it at the very least gives you a good starting point to move onto the oter parts of training that you may not have experienced such as mitts , bags, sparring, competition fighting, combat.

besides, when we fight, who here does a form while fighting? anyone? I know I don't, but I really honestly make my best attempts at using what I have and lots of it was contained in forms i learned over the years.

Im not a pro fighter, I don't even fight amateur anymore. So that at least puts me in the same category as 99.999% of everyone on every martial arts message board out there. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

maybe so, but I think that somehow there is a disconnect because people also seem to attach having to use the exact sequence as tha bad part for some reason.

yes, a form is a prearranged sequence. But it is made up of bits and pieces and strung together so that movement can take place logically and without interrupting practice.

the form itself is 2 parts +3 parts +1part +1part + 4 part +2parts and so on.

depending on how you learn it, you will pull those parts out at some time and drill them into mitts on bags, in the air and use it in si yao da/ san da in your school.

If you neglect the whole of the martial art you are studying, then you are only getting part of a martial art. IE: if all you have is form, well, to me, that's better than nothing at all and it at the very least gives you a good starting point to move onto the oter parts of training that you may not have experienced such as mitts , bags, sparring, competition fighting, combat.

besides, when we fight, who here does a form while fighting? anyone? I know I don't, but I really honestly make my best attempts at using what I have and lots of it was contained in forms i learned over the years.

Im not a pro fighter, I don't even fight amateur anymore. So that at least puts me in the same category as 99.999% of everyone on every martial arts message board out there. :)

I have no issues with forms being taught as part of a system for cultural context or historical context or "even just because".
As it is, right now I only do one main form and that is the Tid Sin Kuen.
It has everything I need.
I do quite a bit of shadow boxing as part of my warm-ups and cool downs, but the bulk of the non-sparring training is done on equipment.

I have dropped all my kyokushin forms, except for Sanchin ( and even sanchin I do it more like the Okinawan Goju method), I do my Chen Taiji form in the morning, because it energizes me.
I alternate my Sanchin with SPM's Sarm Bo Jin and FWC's San Zhan.

I don't train fighting from ANY form.

[David Jamieson]

I have no issues with forms being taught as part of a system for cultural context or historical context or "even just because".
As it is, right now I only do one main form and that is the Tid Sin Kuen.
It has everything I need.
I do quite a bit of shadow boxing as part of my warm-ups and cool downs, but the bulk of the non-sparring training is done on equipment.

I have dropped all my kyokushin forms, except for Sanchin ( and even sanchin I do it more like the Okinawan Goju method), I do my Chen Taiji form in the morning, because it energizes me.
I alternate my Sanchin with SPM's Sarm Bo Jin and FWC's San Zhan.

I don't train fighting from ANY form.

maybe not, but you are developing attributes through form work that will aid you in your defense of self.

like a weightlifter develops strength and changes his body through the work, this is what any training does for us. Attribute development. Applied technique is the final stage of understanding of any martial practice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

maybe not, but you are developing attributes through form work that will aid you in your defense of self.

like a weightlifter develops strength and changes his body through the work, this is what any training does for us. Attribute development. Applied technique is the final stage of understanding of any martial practice.

And we have reached the crux of the matter, what forms are suppose to do and what they are not able to do.

Forms that are NOT combat specific like Sanchin, Tid sid kuen, etc, but that do develop attributes for not only health but fighting, are quite useful.
They are a valuable part of the package.
Like you said, applied technique is the final stage of understanding any martial practice.
Its just that some arts get to that stage much faster than others, and forms being used for the wrong reasons is a big reason why that is so.

[MightyB]

And we have reached the crux of the matter, what forms are suppose to do and what they are not able to do.

Forms that are NOT combat specific like Sanchin, Tid sid kuen, etc, but that do develop attributes for not only health but fighting, are quite useful.
They are a valuable part of the package.
Like you said, applied technique is the final stage of understanding any martial practice.
Its just that some arts get to that stage much faster than others, and forms being used for the wrong reasons is a big reason why that is so.

This I can agree with 100 percent.

[Becca]

Not sure what your point is, I mean, MK put the clip up, I assume, to show that forms ( prearranged choreagraphed moves done into the air) are not needed to develop skills.
Which is widely accepted as a fact.
Zero to do with "toughness".
being widely accepted as not being a nessisary step yes. You forms bashers seem to think that since you place no value on forms that everyone who doesn't agree with you is deluded and can't fight. Which is, simply put, moronic and self delusional. You point of veiw and opinions are different than mine. this is not better or worse, only different... And a bit scarry when one realizes that narrow minded morons like you are helping to pick the next president of the U.S.:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

being widely accepted as not being a nessisary step yes. You forms bashers seem to think that since you place no value on forms that everyone who doesn't agree with you is deluded and can't fight. Which is, simply put, moronic and self delusional. You point of veiw and opinions are different than mine. this is not better or worse, only different... And a bit scarry when one realizes that narrow minded morons like you are helping to pick the next president of the U.S.:eek:

I'm a form basher?
:eek:
And can vote in the US elections ???

[sanjuro_ronin]

This I can agree with 100 percent.

I am glad :D

Seriously, the only issue I have with anyone teaching forms ( one really can't have issues with forms only how they are taught) is when they teach them under the "disguise" of teaching how to fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so, it's basically some sort of physiological stimulation in context of a martial mindset, right? I mean, show me any "martial" form that is like TSK, and I will find you a correlate in non-martial qigong or yogic or even some western movement practices;

I would imagine you can do that, yes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

so, is the implication then that the martial mindset is necessary for it to be valid? in other words, for a MAtist to train pure yoga, is that, i don't know, a wussy thing to do, so it needs to be done "tough guy" style? maybe it's like is it like serving the same meal to two different people, but one wants hot sauce and the other wants maple syrup?

my point is, to try to figure out how the psychology involved in forms practice "works", why some people feel it's necessary to train forms in order to round out their practice...

I think that, and I am sure you may agree, certain "forms" put us in a "martial state of mind".
Some even as far as a trance -like state.
And Yogs is NOT wussy, its freaking hard !
But the view is quite enticing :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

maybe there is something about forms practice that tries to get in touch with a more primal state of being? similar to ritual dance? maybe that's why folks are so loathe to give it up...

With certain forms, as you do them, you feel the "primal energy", for lack of a better term.
Typically those are the "training forms", the less flashy and more "intense" ones.

[David Jamieson]

so, is the implication then that the martial mindset is necessary for it to be valid? in other words, for a MAtist to train pure yoga, is that, i don't know, a wussy thing to do, so it needs to be done "tough guy" style? maybe it's like is it like serving the same meal to two different people, but one wants hot sauce and the other wants maple syrup?

my point is, to try to figure out how the psychology involved in forms practice "works", why some people feel it's necessary to train forms in order to round out their practice...


well, to round out ones practice is by definition to absorb as much of what there is on as many levels as possible.

i also agree that you can find modern methods that develop attributes in the same manner as some of the sets found in tcma such as tsk or sam-chien and so on.

But, many actual fighters round out there practice with these modern methods and even some old ones. I know a few guys who do yoga for instance and fight on carded fights. They do the yoga because of what it does for them structurally, health wise and a state of mind thing as well. It's fantastic for spinal health which we can all agree is huge.

I would also note than there are many gongs in tcma that actually mirror yoga. This has to do with the nature of buddhist martial arts stemming from india, but there you have it. anyway, i digress.

but, what harm is there in doing forms realy?

I hear you when you say there is harm in how they are transmitted as the be all and end all of fighting knowledge, but do we actualy know anyone who does that? Contemporary wushu? I think that even they realize they are doing art and not competitive fighting.

And what of systems that have actual sets within them that are designed to help you break free from sets? lol. this technique of teaching is in other disciplines as well. for instance, in art you are taught all sorts of technical things, but to produce "art" you cannot fall into the patterns of mechanical technique. otherwise, it simply isn't art.

How many of us have been in th scenario where sifu or sensei uses form to change the way you move? for instance, say you learn a tense form early in your training. And now, that you have done this, you have a preset disposition to be tense because you are so early on, you think this is it! lol. then sifu, or sensei will teach you something that requires a whole different way of moving or you will not be able to correctly perform the shape of the techniques.

anyone had that? I know that principle of training was a constant in every asian martial art I was taught from. I think this is common.

Chinese martial arts are wide and deep. Forms are merely a part of the whole. It is dangerous to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but by all means, take what you can use or what you understand and by all means, leave the rest. Someone will find use.

One mans treasure is another mans trash is the only point i can surmise from the debate so far. But it needn't be one or the other extreme really.

[sanjuro_ronin]

but seriously, that may be a big part of it, the cultural coding: a way of increasing communication and dissemination of values - which could be why MMA rejects forms practice, because of the Asian cultural baggage attached to it that so many American MA teachers, looking for sweeter ginger, have taken and then used to establish a sense of mystique about themselves and the arts that most people in this culture didn't have the capacity to assess adequately; and some people finally got fed up with the fortune cookie cutter answers, and hence, MMA!
sorry about this post...

There is much truth in this.

Much like the thundering C0ck that strides the mountain top and spews forth its chi onto the glistening valley below.

:D

[Yao Sing]

I just have to say that it seems to me a lot of the issue with most of these 'discussions' is the mythical Kung Fu guy that they all rail against.

You know, the guy that does NOTHING but forms practice yet brags about how he's a great fighter even though he never had a real fight. The guy nobody can name and none of us have ever seen.

The guy that says you don't have to fight to learn how to fight. Is he here in this forum? Don't think so since everyone admits to doing the type of training the mythical guy is claimed to not do.

Pretty much all here have agreed that you don't need forms to fight but somehow we still get pages of comments bashing the guys that think you do even though we haven'ty seen anyone like that here anywhere.

I know I've had the pleasure of having someone claim I'm that guy even though I don't train anyone to fight or offer advice to others here on the forum. That doesn't stop the tilting at windmills though because it's so much more fun than the truth.

So all in all, most of the peeps that post here use pretty much all the usual training tools (plus forms), have used some of what they've learned in real fights, know what real fighting is like, yet we still get thread after thread full of pages about all the clueless Kung Fu guys that do ONLY forms and have no idea what a real fight is like.

Go figure. :D

[Yao Sing]

To add to my latest rant I recall not too long ago someone told a story about some hippies practicing Taiji in a park and laughing at how they think they're learning to fight.

What was odd was that he never spoke to them, only sat an watched according to his story, yet somehow he knew that they all thought they were learning to fight instead of learning a Chinese exercise for health and longevity.

How can that be?

[Eric Olson]

So all in all, most of the peeps that post here use pretty much all the usual training tools (plus forms), have used some of what they've learned in real fights, know what real fighting is like, yet we still get thread after thread full of pages about all the clueless Kung Fu guys that do ONLY forms and have no idea what a real fight is like.

Go figure. :D

That's an excellent point. And my guess is that what the critics are responding to is what they've seen in the community at large (ie through tournaments and other public events) and also how things are portrayed in the martial media (ie Kung Fu Magazine and Inside Kung Fu) Here's a very representative article of the kind of things people rail against:

http://www.insidekung-fu.com/content/view/50/36/

BTW, did anyone see the ridiculous layout on "Mel Gar" in this month's inside kung fu, with the dude with the fake leopard fur trimmed kung fu outfit?

[Yao Sing]

Here's a very representative article of the kind of things people rail against:

http://www.insidekung-fu.com/content/view/50/36/

BTW, did anyone see the ridiculous layout on "Mel Gar" in this month's inside kung fu, with the dude with the fake leopard fur trimmed kung fu outfit?

Ha! That sounds like the Letters To The Editor in Penthouse and Playboy.

"I strolled through the door and was immediately surrounded by 10 hot naked women [Inside Kung Fu] large dirty bikers [/Inside Kung Fu].

Before I could say a word one of the women [Inside Kung Fu] bikers [/Inside Kung Fu] grabbed me and tore my clothes off [Inside Kung Fu] sucker punched me in the head [/Inside Kung Fu].

:D:D:D

[MightyB]

Much like the thundering C0ck that strides the mountain top and spews forth its chi onto the glistening valley below.

:D

This is why Sanjuro is my KFM Board Hero. Tidbits of wisdom like this could be my new Sig.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is why Sanjuro is my KFM Board Hero. Tidbits of wisdom like this could be my new Sig.

My fortune cookie business is taking off !
:D

[MightyB]

Or you could write children's books.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or you could write children's books.

Dude....:eek:

On a side note:

[David Jamieson]

Or you could write children's books.


I think veiled sexual references in children's books will only get him busted. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think veiled sexual references in children's books will only get him busted. :p

Speaking of busts...

[David Jamieson]

wow! talk about swollen! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

wow! talk about swollen! :D

Chi like that, you can't buy !

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

You don't need forms for training for the same reason you don't need protective gear.. it's "not real".. if you aren't beatin' the bloody snot out of your training partners or snappin' a few bones, how "real" is it?

Be well..

[MightyB]

Pretty much all here have agreed that you don't need forms to fight but somehow we still get pages of comments bashing the guys that think you do even though we haven'ty seen anyone like that here anywhere.

So all in all, most of the peeps that post here use pretty much all the usual training tools (plus forms), have used some of what they've learned in real fights, know what real fighting is like, yet we still get thread after thread full of pages about all the clueless Kung Fu guys that do ONLY forms and have no idea what a real fight is like.

Go figure. :D

Really it's because there are a lot of people here that want to claim that they're teaching kung fu without having to go through that arduous task of learning kung fu first.

I mean seriously- how can you claim that you're teaching something like Wing Chun without Chum Kiu, Bil Jee, Sil Lum Tao, Mook Jong, and the two weapons forms? Duh- uh - I learned how to do chi sou reasonably well and duh I uh know that the idea is to dominate the center line- so I uh teach uh wing tsun duh doh duh- wait- nobody uses chi sou in the ufc so I uh- I'm changing the curriculem again duhhhhhhh.....

That's just one example- could be said for CLF, Shaolin, whatever the flavor of the month these guys claim to teach the theories from... Whateva'

[MasterKiller]

Forms are the finger pointing at the moon, grasshopper.

[kwaichang]

MK if you are going to make a stupid statement at least keep it with the same movie KC:eek:

[MasterKiller]

MK if you are going to make a stupid statement at least keep it with the same movie KC:eek:


All instruction is but a finger pointing to the moon; and those whose gaze is fixed upon the pointer will never see beyond. Even let him catch sight of the moon, and still he cannot see its beauty.

I don't need no stinking movies....

[Scott R. Brown]

Forms are the finger pointing at the moon, grasshopper.


MK if you are going to make a stupid statement at least keep it with the same movie KC:eek:



All instruction is but a finger pointing to the moon; and those whose gaze is fixed upon the pointer will never see beyond. Even let him catch sight of the moon, and still he cannot see its beauty.

I don't need no stinking movies....

Yeah, but where did Buddha mention a grasshopper?:)

[IronWeasel]

Chi like that, you can't buy !



At first I thought those pics were just from the internet...but now I think that he actually KNOWS all of those women!

He's just a poor restless soul...wandering from supermodel to supermodel...

[sanjuro_ronin]

At first I thought those pics were just from the internet...but now I think that he actually KNOWS all of those women!

He's just a poor restless soul...wandering from supermodel to supermodel...

Yes, this is true, such is my burden, my purgatory...:(

And as such, I allow you to partake of my own personal hell.

[David Jamieson]

that chick has a weird waistline! looks almost photoshopped.

[sanjuro_ronin]

that chick has a weird waistline! looks almost photoshopped.

I'll let you know ;)