what have you seen?

[TenTigers]

When people say that internal doesn't exist, ore there are no hidden, or closed-door stuff, or "high level", etc.

My teacher says,"Yes, but what have they seen? Who have they met, and felt, and to what degree?"

So, have any of you seen, met, and felt, something that was extraordiary, that boggled the mind, amazed you, and made you a firm believer that Gung-Fu, REAL Gung-Fu, and skills that you thought might have been fantasy, really do exist?

[Samurai Jack]

Yes. George Xu did that for me. Some of what he does seems to defy the laws of physics, but he asserts that anyone can do it. He says once you figure it out, you'll be surprised you weren't doing it all along. He also dosen't play favorites when it comes to "closed door" and internal arts though. He says pro boxers and little old ladies with no training at all have an equal chance of getting it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

YES!!.. i train with an accomplished Taiji Teacher.. his ability to "listen" and respond appropriately is beyond comprehension.. yet, when he breaks it down, it makes sense.. his gift is to be able to do this at combat speed, not just pushing speed.. at first, it seems like something from the movies, but.. in very slow motion (when i should be able to deal with it) he says "your movements and connection scream of intention", then, with seemingly effortless movement i am unbalanced and a damaging technique is demonstrated, without the "damage".. it's a bit un-nerving.. what is impressive is that he is able to teach and communicate this art with patience and clearly effective examples.. i could write pages, but.. after 20 years in the internal systems, this is the first person i have met that can actually and consistently demonstrate what the "Classics" tell us..

Be well..

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was in Macao in the early 90's, for only 9 months, working at my Uncle's Casino ( he was security manager and more).
While there I befriended a few of the guys that work there and they took me around and to Taiwan too ( and more but that is another lifetime).
I saw my very first NHB matches there, and saw a lot of coin being won and loss.
I also saw, for the very first time, Taiji in action.
One of the fighters was a Hung Kuen and Chen Taiji guy, he did very well and I was introduced to him ( his cousin or whatnot worked in the Casino).
I was able to meet both his Hung Kuen teacher and his Taiji teacher.
First time I ever saw "the real stuff".
While the HK sifu was very good it was the Taiji one that made a lasting impression, not only by what he AND his fighters ( notice I didn't write students) coudl do, but by his MA philosophy.
When I mentioned about how kung fu and Taiji in particular, takes too many years to be effective, he turned to my co-worker and told him to tell me that I need to stop watching kung fu movies because it rotted my brain.
LOL
He asked me what systems I have trained in and I told him, he then asked me how quickly I could use them in a fight, "a few months" I said.
He replied," and you think my kung fu is so weak that you need years to make it work?".
My nuts sank to the floor, I felt like I was a dead man !
he said that, though like ANY other MA OR physical skill, it takes many years to be a MASTER, it should only take a few months for even the most dim witted student, like myself he added, to be able to use it, if not, of what use was it ??

He then proceeded to demonstrate power like I had never seen before.
First was fajing and he did that while demonstrating his IP ( first time I had seen that too), I was volunteered and, putting on my motorcycle helmet ( everyone had a bike), I got to see firsthand what it feels like to get smacked.
The helmet was useless after that.
"perhaps you doubt the ability to use it in a fight, yes?", he asked.
NO !!! was my reply, but that didn't work.
It was a most interesting experience, but what I recall the most was his final words before I left for Canada months after our first meeting," trust nothing you can't experience for yourself".

[sanjuro_ronin]

When people say that internal doesn't exist, ore there are no hidden, or closed-door stuff, or "high level", etc.

My teacher says,"Yes, but what have they seen? Who have they met, and felt, and to what degree?"

So, have any of you seen, met, and felt, something that was extraordiary, that boggled the mind, amazed you, and made you a firm believer that Gung-Fu, REAL Gung-Fu, and skills that you thought might have been fantasy, really do exist?


One thing though, every time I have seen the "extraordinary" or the "real" kung fu, it has always been something that not only can be replicated but can be explained by the person doing it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

exactly - my sifu has always said that if it's real, it's within anyone's grasp to do it as well or better than he can

I would be concerned if I went to a school, in any chosen field, not just MA, and saw that the students could replicate what the teacher could do.
What good is someone's skill if it can't be passed on?
When we hear of these past masters that could "rip the skin of a rhino and kill a shark with one clenching of the buttocks" I always ask, "what could their students do?

[sanjuro_ronin]

could replicate or couldn't?

Couldn't, sorry.
Too much Yang, need to go do some Taiji.

[Yao Sing]

Bob, Remember the Taiji seminar in Shanghai 1998?

[TenTigers]

it is unfortunate that there are teachers out there, some who posess extraordinary skill, and for one reason or another, did not pass it on. Their skill will die with them. This only strengthens the arguments in the above threads. Eventually, all will be left is the "myths."
I met Roy Goldberg-Sensei, one of the highest ranked in Daito-Ryu Aikijiujutsu, who dropped someone with the tiniest of movements. The student hit the floor, felt no pain whatsoever, just dropped. (it was not one of his students, but actually one of mine. Next month I will see him again and personally volunteer for this-I just gotta feel it) He said,"I don't really know how I do it, either. After 30 years, it just...comes."

I know my teacher has some amazing skill, and he says he only has such and such percent of his teacher, who claims the same about his teacher. There is no limit to skill, evidently. Keeps my hopes up.

please continue with your experiences...

[Yao Sing]

What I referenced above with my reminder to TaiChiBob was personally experienced by me so something that most discount, shrug off and laugh at I'm forced to believe and can only wonder "How?" not "If".

[imperialtaichi]

I have met a number of really amazing people.

From scholars who demonstrates such skills in a delicate and gentle mannor (such as my Tai Chi Teacher Wei Shuren), to street fighters using such skills in brute yet totally effective mannor (such as my Kulo Wing Chun Teacher Leung Woon Tsi). Though the effects are different, one can always see common threads amongst these skills. And definitely, these skills can be developed via specific methods very quickly.

Some of these "Physics Defying" Masters I have met and had cross hands with (more like beaten up by ;)) includes (off the top of my head, not in any order)

* Yang Style Taiji Beijing Wei Shuren
* Yang Style Taiji Beijing Wang Jie
* Tian Style Bagua Beijing Tian Ke Yan
* Kulo (Gulao) Wing Chun Guangzhou Leung Woon Tsi
* Wing Chun Hong Kong Tsui Seung Tin (Loooong time ago)

Some of the ones that my friends had met with, of whom I would really want to meet (one day) includes Taiwan Pan Yue and Aikido Japan Saito Sensei.

I have also met others and had seen their demonstrations, but unless I actually cross hands with them I would always hold reservations because sometimes students may get conditioned by their teachers to respond a certain way so sometimes it is hard to tell what's real and what's not.

Cheers,
John

[Samurai Jack]

Alright, well since people are sharing specifics:

The first time I met George Xu he told me that I wouldn't be able to move him in push hands unless he wanted me to. He then invited me to do so and I couldn't. I asked him if that ability could be useful outside of push hands, and he said "Sure, you cannot throw me!"

Now, I know that there are a lot of little tricks that savy teachers pick up to sort of "fake" the heavy body skill. For example, some subtley change angles on you by putting their hands on your shoulders or elbows so you end up pushing them into the ground making them more stable, instead of pushing them over. Therefore, I thought it'd be clever to throw him off.

I had just busted my personal record in the deadlift two weeks before, and I judged I could probably lift twice George's bodyweight if I squatted down, wrapped my arms around his waist, and lifted straight up. When I proposed this, George looked a little surprised, but then agreed to let me try it.

I couldn't budge the man lifting him straight up. George gave this little "I told you so smile," and that was that. The same day I found I couldn't apply Chin Na on him, or even apply a basic Osoto-Gari foot sweep on him even if he looked totally off balance.

But that was nothing. The best came several months later in a seminar at Golden Gate Park.

George likes to work out under this really huge tree near a duck pond. Actually, several really prominent Tai Chi teachers hold classes there daily, keeping to a schedule they arranged years ago. It's a great spot visually, but it's usually crowded with Tai Chi people and gawkers, and the smell of the duck urine from the enourmous flock that lives there is very overpowering.

Anyhow, the tree at this area is probably a young sequoia, maybe 30 or 40 feet tall, and of course it's gotta weigh more than twenty tons. It's thick enough that four people would have a hard time getting there arms around it.

George was leading us all, maybe thirty students in part of a Chen Tai Chi form (I don't know Chen Tai Chi, I was only interested in his Pa Kua, but if you go to a George Xu seminar you just do what he wants to do). So we're all doing this part of the form that in Hsing-i we call "Bring the Moon to the Chest." In this move you spread your arms out in "White Crane Spreads Wings," then drop your right fist into your left palm and stomp.

George was not happy with how we were doing, and kept telling us to stomp harder and bring our hands down in a more coordinated way. After a few minutes, he makes all thirty of us back away from him, and he demonstrates what he wants us to do.

This is the freaky part: George does the move and his stomp, no kidding, makes that f***ing tree shake! We can all feel it making the ground rumble, and he does it a few more times, and then goes on with the class like it's nothing.

THIRTY PEOPLE STOMPING ON THE GROUND IN UNISON HAD NO CHANCE OF MAKING A DEEPLY ROOTED, 20 TON TREE SHAKE, YET HE DID IT BY HIMSELF.

I still don't know how the heck he did that. Later he told me that he just grabbed the tree with his Chi.

Whatever the heck that means.

[unkokusai]

.................................................. ................

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Dave: Are you referring to Dr. Lau? Or Ms. Cui Yu Li? Ms. Cui "healed" a ripped groin muscle i had at the Seattle Tournament of John Leong's.. the rip occurred as a result of some robut push-hands on a slick surface, i did an unintentional split and the rip occurred when i resisted.. the event Dr. indicated i would need at least 4 months to heal, and maybe surgery.. Ms. Cui with Nelson Chan as interpreter came up to my room, spent about 45 minutes working on almost every part of my body except the groin (maybe 2-3 minutes at the site of the injury).. now, i had to drop out of the tournament because of the rip.. i had a golf-ball sized knot where the rip had contracted.. i drug my dead leg to Ms. Cui's Chen workshop, but she made me sit down and said she would fix it later.. yeah, right, i thought.. to make a short story long, after working on me for +/-45 minutes, she said (as interpreted through Nelson) don't put your feet on the floor for 2 hours and don't take a shower for 4 hours, then everything is okay.. the next day Jesse Vaughn, Kurt Borglum, Ms. Cui and i were hiking in the Olympic mountains, absolutely no pain or any evidence of an injury.. a chance encounter with the event Dr. resulted in his expressed desire to meet the "sorceress" which had done this "magic".. there was no "medical" explanation, but evidence was clear..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

unkokusai: There are other keys on the keyboard........................ or is it just a focus issue?

Be well..

[sanjuro_ronin]

I still don't know how the heck he did that. Later he told me that he just grabbed the tree BY ITS CHI

Fixed that for you :D

[Samurai Jack]

Fixed that for you :D

Oooooooooooooohhhh, IT'S CHI. Thank you sanjuro-san, it's so much clearer now!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Chris: There was bruising that covered about 6-8 inches in diameter and had began draining downward by the time Ms. Cui started her work.. the Dr. spent about 6-7 minutes poking and probing, rotating my leg and conceeding it was beyond the scope of on-site attention.. he was an MD.. the day after Ms. Cui worked on the leg the bruising had diminished to a barely noticable discoloration.. I am not a trained physician, EMT, or TCM practitioner.. i have been trained in Tui Na.. I walked like a rip, it hurt like a rip, it looked like a rip.. what's that they say about ducks? The Dr.'s advice was to get a complete medical evaluation when i got home..

Be well..

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oooooooooooooohhhh, IT'S CHI. Thank you sanjuro-san, it's so much clearer now!

Anytime !
As someone that advocates "the grabbing of the chi" I assure you all, it's a very practical technique !

[Yao Sing]

Are you referring to Dr. Lau?

I don't know his name but I guess that's him. The guy teaching the seminar in Shanghai that made his skin ripple and all that.

I ran over after the seminars ended since I wanted to see what he was all about and I had a pretty good understanding of the material I just learned.

When I got there he was demonstrating his ability to exert his Chi beyond his body. I know he already performed it on Lila and I motioned for him to do it to me as well. He did and although it was weaker (compared notes later with Lila) it was certainly real and not my imagination.

Now the interesting thing about this is something that I didn't realize until recently, many years later.

When he approached me I turned a bit offering my bad shoulder in the off chance that if it was real it might help the old injury. This old injury was from my last motorcycle accident where I almost lost the arm completely.

The anterior deltoid head is completely gone on my right shoulder. I used to have bouts of pain so intense I could only lay around and cry. It would last about an hour or two and I would be incapacitated during that time. The doctor I saw after moving to Florida said nothing can be done about it and I had to live with it.

Sometime last year (2007) I realized it's been so long since I got that pain I couldn't remember when it stopped or why. Then I was telling someone about the experience in Shanghai and it occured to me that I can't remember having that pain any time after the 1998 China trip.

I really wish I noticed sooner or paid more attention but it really seems like that might have ended it for me.

[wiz cool c]

Best example I have is an american Chen style tai chi teacher. His teacher's a well know chinese teacher in new york.

We used to so moving push hands the sumo type where you have to get the guy out of the circle. I have about 25 pounds on him ,we are the same hight. I never got him out of the circle and push with him maybe 100 times. He never exerted external force and always stayed relaxed.

If you saw this guy you would think he is really weak. But his strengh is increadible.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Chris: I am with you on the analysis/understanding aspect.. finding the order and patterns in a process usually reveals a natural conclusion.. but, as i have found out, sometimes we simply can't put everything neatly into our boxes of knowledge.. suppose i tell you that, at one point during the treatment, Ms. Cui firmly pinched between 2nd and 3rd toes, on the foot/ball area (top and bottom) and lifted my entire body off the bed with nothing other than that pinch? i can safely recall being suspended for more than 1 to 1.5 seconds.. the situation was sufficient to cause Nelson to stand up and exclaim who knows what in Chinese.. sometimes we simply suspend rational analysis and embrace awe and wonder..

I have always sought logical and duplicatable explanations for "phenomena".. i understand "Qi" as bio-electric energy.. i understand that it can be enhanced and manipulated.. i understand that there are no prohibitions from a theoretical physics perspective that would discount "Qi balls" as some fantasize about.. i also understand i have never seen or experienced none of the mythical "Qi blasts", and i have no evidence to suggest that anyone has actually evolved to that level.. as Dave points out, i have seen stuff that defies logical explanation, and.. sometimes i am just pleased to be witness to human potential..

My current teacher exhibits qualities of "pushing" that seem incomprehensible, but.. after more than a year working with him, i am beginning to understand how his sensitivity is so superior, his ability to function at a heightened state of awareness, and his understanding of human-nature/mechanics is so finely tuned that he is simply expressing natural potential.. no magic, no mystical ritual, just an incredible depth of understanding how we function in various states of stimuli.. it's very cool, and.. he can actually transmit the knowledge..

Sometimes, it's okay to simply say, "wow, that's cool"..

Be well..

[TenTigers]

man, can't you guys take this to pm, or another thread?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


just before I conjecture, can you describe the position your body was in in more detail?
I was laying flat on my back on a bed.

TenTigers: No.:D Well, we could, but.. it would break the flow of the dialogue.. Chris has some insight into injuries, so.. while i post my perspective of "what i have seen", Chris might be able to share a more beneficial perspective.. unless, of course, the intent of the thread is to only look at unexplainable stuff..

Be well..

[TenTigers]

the intent of the thread was more in connection to TMA, but healing is part of the big picture so...have at it.

[Bob Ashmore]

I haven't seen the fight of the century between two internalists, if that's what you're asking for, but what I have seen come out of Tai Chi Chuan training over the last six years in my current school has been pretty awesome.
What I've seen have been many more incidents of really cool healing than of highly skillful dueling, so I can only tell you about those.
I've watched a woman go from barely being able to walk due to spinal injuries to beginning to learn the kicks and spins of the long form. She did this in about two years. I personally have gone from barely being able to use my left arm due to a cervical spine injury to having nearly full use of it again, after I'd been told by medical "experts" that I would not be able to do so. There are many other stories of people learning to use their bodies correctly and in accordance with the principles of the internal arts leading to their healing themselves that I have seen but I think you're getting the idea.
These clear, demonstrable benefits of the correct practice of Tai Chi Chuans internal skills seem much more incredible to me than any amount of ability to hurt someone else in a staged match for profit.
That I have learned some small amount of skill at self defense can only be a bonus, as defending myself against an aggressor is yet another aspect of maintaining good health through the correct application of the skills of Tai Chi Chuan. I'm nowhere near good at the martial side of things, I need a lot more practice, but I am working on it.
Now, none of us in our little group may ever rival Yang Lu Chan in fighting skill, but we are all learning the basics of internal martial arts and learning them fairly well, each to his own measure. Since we all have lives to live and families to be a part of, none of us really have the time required to learn the entire art to the level of being able to blow chi fireballs out of our arses or anything even remotely resembling that, but those of us who have the desire to learn the martial art have it clearly available to us in as much depth as we wish to learn it.
We are told that we will get out of that area of training what we put into it, no more, no less. One hours practice equals one hours skill. No magical shortcuts or instant greatness being sold to any of us.
However it is much more the healing inherint in the art and not any show of violence that has lead me to believe in the art and study it with as much enthusiasm and time as I can.
That an extremely high level of skill in the martial arts is available through training in the internal arts is, I feel, indisputable. Those with the time and wherewithal to reach those heights certainly can if that is what they wish to do.
As for me, I will continue to struggle to keep up with what I can keep up with, continue to enjoy myself while I do it, and not spend another moment worrying about what I might be missing.
Who has time for that? I have another long form to do....