Iron Palm

[r4cy]

Hey guys: Does anyone knows where could I get good information online on how to develop the iron palm? Thanks

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.ironpalmcombat.com/index.html

[r4cy]

Most of the important links don;t work in that page, sorry. Anyone else?

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's funny, I just went there now and they all worked.

Try this one:

http://coilingdragoninternalarts.com/

[t_niehoff]

Hey guys: Does anyone knows where could I get good information online on how to develop the iron palm? Thanks

I don't think there is any "good information" since it is a fantasy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think there is any "good information" since it is a fantasy.

You lack chi.:D

[t_niehoff]

You lack chi.:D

Yes, I'm taking a chi supplement, but it's making my palms iron.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, I'm taking a chi supplement, but it's making my palms hairy.

Fixed that for you.;)

[t_niehoff]

Fixed that for you.;)

LOL! So what's wrong with sex with someone you love? ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL! So what's wrong with sex with someone you love? ;)

...All we need is love....

[HardWork8]

I don't think there is any "good information" since it is a fantasy.

That is it, keep on making making idiotic and irresponsible comments to people who are genuinely interested in traditional training which is an area of training which you have absolutely no knowledge of.

[HardWork8]

Hey guys: Does anyone knows where could I get good information online on how to develop the iron palm? Thanks

It is best to find a sifu(who is not a glorified kickboxer, but a genuine kung fu practitioner), who will guide you through the various stages of training. I personally don't know of any websites.

Good luck!

[r4cy]

It's okay. I guess there isn't a lot of info anyway. I'll do my best. Thanks for your response.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are a few legit IP guys here, like Dale and Sifu Miller, have you tried them?

[Phil Redmond]

It's okay. I guess there isn't a lot of info anyway. I'll do my best. Thanks for your response. Regardless of what people say. I've seen people who didn't have much striking power break coconuts with their palms after IP training. Is it a trick? The best way to find is to buy a coconut and try it. ;)
Check your PM.

[HardWork8]

Or otherwise save your money and instead of buying a coconut come up and try to break one of the Kung Fu Magazine Forum's "modernists' " thick skulls.

However, I must warn you that in comparison, breaking a coconut is a piece of cake and that is because some of our modernists(who hate traditional kung fu) are experts in Iron Skull training, which makes their heads thicker than the average coconut tree.:D

[Ali. R]

Its all about jing, and really learning and understanding it for what it is, while hitting the bags…

Just like water and ice they may be two different formats of ideals but of the same manifestation (H2O)… There are a lot of categories dealing with “jing” that one can mention and are all different ideals when brought forth mentally but the results are the same when executed in application (“jing lik sao”)…

“Jing” is a strong concept and ideal of the twelve-muscle/tendon channels…
Physiologically, they do not enter into the internal organs but coordinate the movement of the bone and limbs… The Twelve-Muscle/Tendon Channels are connected to the inner fascia of the body’s muscles, tendons, and ligaments as well as others connective tissues…

They are all affiliated with the channels and collaterals (Luo) systems on the exterior of the body, and serve as a mediator between any energetic reactions (trauma stress, etc) that vibrate from the body’s exterior surface to the deep internal organs…

Hitting the bags, as how to throw a strike: first lets start with the height of the table. The table should be at dan tian level, only after you are in your stance (wide stance). So you are standing directly over the bags, while dropping the hands in a very relax but heavy hand kind of way.

You are focusing on Jing & Shen. The throw generates clean through the bag its’ self. Once you get to a cretin level of iron palm the top of your iron palm table will seem moist & wet, where the chi has generated through the bags.

With the three levels of penetration collarbone, solar plexus and bellybutton, collarbone: first softness, solar plexus: second soft but yet with heavy hand ness, bellybutton: third with shen & jing explosiveness with chi energized muscle.

You will see every thing that you need too see by just hitting the bags correctly and through repetition.

Must be three kinds of bags, start of with sand for three months, then dry peas or beans, the kind that you buy in a plastic bag, then hit the bags until the peas or beans are all crushed or for just three months. The last bags fill them up with daisy BBs, hit for three months then you will be complete.



Ali Rahim.

[t_niehoff]

That is it, keep on making making idiotic and irresponsible comments to people who are genuinely interested in traditional training which is an area of training which you have absolutely no knowledge of.

The only idiotic and irresponsible comments are from people who believe in this sort of traditional fantasy-foo. If you believe that you or someone has the iron palm or that your iron palm training has had any benefit, step into the ring with a good fighter and see. Prove it, not with stories or legends or philosophy, but with performance. Or, point to someone that has proved it. Funny how no one has ever been able to produce that -- sort of like bigfoot, all kinds of stories, just no real, solid evidence.

These things are silly, demo tricks, like breaking boards. And all they do is distract people from what is important in terms of developing martial skill.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only idiotic and irresponsible comments are from people who believe in this sort of traditional fantasy-foo. If you believe that you or someone has the iron palm or that your iron palm training has had any benefit, step into the ring with a good fighter and see. Prove it, not with stories or legends or philosophy, but with performance. Or, point to someone that has proved it. Funny how no one has ever been able to produce that -- sort of like bigfoot, all kinds of stories, just no real, solid evidence.

These things are silly, demo tricks, like breaking boards. And all they do is distract people from what is important in terms of developing martial skill.

You are way off on this one T, sorry.
I have done IP for the last couple of years, the facts behind it are verifiable, I have even take X-rays to compare before and after the IP training.
Now, one must discount what IP isn't, namely a "magic bullet, and count it for what it is, an advanced form of hand conditioning.
As for the practical application of it, the guys I spar with commented on it, its easily "seen" and "felt" by touching my hand.
Now, I before I retired from competition I had an OK record as it was and I have done impact tests that have shown that even before IP I had an above average strike, that said, I have never struck harder AND more relaxed that I do now.
The gyms I go to: Kombat arts, Champion ship boxing and a couple of others, al have good caliber fighters.

Now, I realize this is just Anecdotal heresay from my part, but if you are ever in the area, I would love to show you what IP can do, or anyone else for that matter, and this is a FRIENDLY offer, no ego whatsoever.

Fair enough?

[SAAMAG]

I used to practice Iron Palm when I was in Florida. Sold my bags to a friend before leaving because I had to leave in a hurry. Haven't yet gotten another set.

Though the name of the training suggests otherwise, I too think of it simply as hand conditioning. A slower, safe, methodological way of preparing and conditioning the hand for striking.

Sort of the same way thai fighters now condition their shins for kicking. They kick only bags and pads over and over and over progressively kicking more dense parts of the bags as time passes...never anything hard (like another shin bone)
until they actually start having fights.

Same thing when karate stylists hit the makiwara boards, and so forth. Just a bit more progressive with IP I think.

Nothing magical about the training process unless someone believes it will make them be able to blow out the back of someone with chi energy. Can someone say "Ricky O??!"

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used to practice Iron Palm when I was in Florida. Sold my bags to a friend before leaving because I had to leave in a hurry. Haven't yet gotten another set.

Though the name of the training suggests otherwise, I too think of it simply as hand conditioning. A slower, safe, methodological way of preparing and conditioning the hand for striking.

Sort of the same way thai fighters now condition their shins for kicking. They kick only bags and pads over and over and over progressively kicking more dense parts of the bags as time passes...never anything hard (like another shin bone)
until they actually start having fights.

Same thing when karate stylists hit the makiwara boards, and so forth. Just a bit more progressive with IP I think.

Nothing magical about the training process unless someone believes it will make them be able to blow out the back of someone with chi energy.

If you want new IP stuff, get in touch with Dale Dugas, his stuff is top notch.

[SAAMAG]

If you want new IP stuff, get in touch with Dale Dugas, his stuff is top notch.

I used to use the stuff from wing lam. Is his stuff better than theirs? I found that the mung bean bag made me wheeze too after hitting it for a while. So I might just have to go straight to steel shot!! Yeaaaaa.

We used to kick and punch bags of pebbles as part of our conditioning training (progressively, mind you) back in the day. I even did thai kicks on it. We'd use it as a joke back then for new guys. We'd hit it really hard, and then a new guy would go to hit it and bust his hand.

It was funny at the time. Thinking back with a more mature head--and I start to think about all the broken hands that COULD have occurred. Luckily it was a small bag and swung easily on it's rope.

[WCFighter]

Hi ,

I am in the William Cheung lineage, and I have followed his iron palm training :
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/c/4361/1/iron-palm.html

Some people refer to it as "heavy hand" training. I understand why. Your hand doesn't become like a piece of metal. Your skin should actually look normal and soft (not tough with calluses), but your bones under the skin will become
denser. So when you strike, its a heavier strike.

It's not the cheapest, but I followed it because my sifu, Master Joe Sayah, had done it several times, and I was curious about it. (He has very heavy hands)

There are other Sifus I've met in GM Cheung's lineage that have followed it as well. Initially most people are skeptical of training like this But once your body gets smacked by their hands, you believe.

This is the only iron palm training program I have followed, but I am sure there are other ones that are quite good as well.

Basically you strike sand bags with ONE hand for 10 minutes, dip it in warm iron palm medicine for 2 minutes, dry it off, repeat the same for the other hand. And then you repeat the same pattern again for both hands two more times.
So that's 1 hour and 12 minutes / day , 5 days on 2 days off, and you do that for 100 days. There is a flat sandbag in front of you, a cylindrical bag to the left of the flat sand bag, a cylindrical bag across the flat sand bag, and a cylindrical bag to the right of the flat sand bag. Over the course of 100 days, you gradually increase the types of strikes that you perform.

The goal is to be relaxed, breath properly, and strike in a fluid fashion.

I know people in other styles that must perform special forms for a year before they are allowed to start striking a bag. But in ours, you start striking immediately. (I guess that is the wing chun way ;) )

I have to admit, I don't believe in mystical chi stuff (no offense to anyone out there, but I believe in physics and bruising liniment)

The medicine smells awful. It does leave a stink in your hands even after you shower. I had to buy orange hand creme or apple hand creme so that my wife doesn't gag every time I come near her. LOL .

Within the first week, you will feel your hands getting heavier. Over time your fingernails will become harder too.

Will iron palm guarantee you 100% victory in a fight? Nope. That depends on your kung fu skills. But when you hit your opponent, it WILL hurt them more.

I have felt a change in the density of my hands and so have my students.
And I have done the first 100 days phase (with sand in the bags) of iron palm training. Eventually , I am supposed to repeat the 100 days of training again with bags filled with rocks, and then again with bags filled with iron pellets.

I do have a funny story....

I was walking outside in the summertime after having completed my iron palm.
A bee flew into my head next to my ear. I instinctively smacked my ear/temple area in an attempt to squish the bee (or flick it away) . I almost fell to the ground in dizziness because I smacked myself too hard.

:S

[SAAMAG]

You know that percussion training actually creates a more dense bone structure all over your body? Punching the wall bags will do the same thing for fist. I think they even mentioned something about it in the last fight science too...

It's pretty common knowledge that athletes who consistently induce their bodies to repeated shock will naturally obtain a more dense bone structure to compensate for it. It's the body's way of building itself up...just like when you lift weights...it helps to increase bone density as well because of the stress being put on them.

IP is just another method, but focusing on the hand.

Again, no chi blasts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I used to use the stuff from wing lam. Is his stuff better than theirs? I found that the mung bean bag made me wheeze too after hitting it for a while. So I might just have to go straight to steel shot!! Yeaaaaa.

We used to kick and punch bags of pebbles as part of our conditioning training (progressively, mind you) back in the day. I even did thai kicks on it. We'd use it as a joke back then for new guys. We'd hit it really hard, and then a new guy would go to hit it and bust his hand.

It was funny at the time. Thinking back with a more mature head--and I start to think about all the broken hands that COULD have occurred. Luckily it was a small bag and swung easily on it's rope.

There are many different programs, the one I followed you are using shot from day one, of course I already had years of makiwara and bag work so,,,

[SAAMAG]

Makes sense. That mung bean stuff was horrible for my lungs. I'll get with you by PM on your program.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Makes sense. That mung bean stuff was horrible for my lungs. I'll get with you by PM on your program.

No need for PM's I don't keep anything "secret", I follow the IP program of GM Chicoine, via Steve Hamp and Dale Dugas.
I have trained in a few other systems, but their's was a perfect fit for me.

I have a few clips I am working on posting on youtube.

[t_niehoff]

Bone density will increase through use (both exercise and impact), nothing particularly surprising in that.

What does surprise me, however, is the human propensity for self-delusion.

People develop the ability to break boards, concrete, ice, etc. Too bad they won't let those guys compete in MMA where they could unleash. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bone density will increase through use (both exercise and impact), nothing particularly surprising in that.

What does surprise me, however, is the human propensity for self-delusion.

People develop the ability to break boards, concrete, ice, etc. Too bad they won't let those guys compete in MMA where they could unleash. ;)

Your typical crap aside, you do make a valid point and, to be honest, I don't know why people don't, maybe should ask them, I know you would never ASSume to know the reason, I am sure there are some in your location.

[SAAMAG]

Bone density will increase through use (both exercise and impact), nothing particularly surprising in that.

What does surprise me, however, is the human propensity for self-delusion.

People develop the ability to break boards, concrete, ice, etc. Too bad they won't let those guys compete in MMA where they could unleash. ;)

Yep. That's basically it. Nothing really that special about it. The "mysticals" of the martial arts are no longer mystical really anymore. That's why I get all upset when I see certain individuals spout off nonsense about it and can only explain using catch phrases and words with no scientific basis whatsoever.

Everything is a byproduct of something else. "If you do this than that" sort of thing. We'll continue to learn about the human body as time passes, and will eventually be able to explain and debunk a great many more of the "mysteries" that people like to propogate in the martial arts world.

As far as MMA goes...I'm sure a few of those guys could break some cinderblocks if they wanted to...

[kfman5F]

Where do you live?

[kfman5F]

Where do you live was intended for r4cy.

[Lee Chiang Po]

A long time ago I did something similar. It was not Iron Palm or any such, but I personally called it Iron Hand. If you pound on hard surfaces your hands will become quite hard. I don't know about heavy. My workout was a large cinder block with woven straw pads on it, supported up about chest high and facing me. I also had a Makawara board. I had 2 large wooden nail kegs that were filled with large sand. Kept dry, the sand was easy to work with.
With the sand kegs I would shove my hands, finger tips first, into the sand as hard as I could. In the beginning it was real hard. The fingers will seperate and go in all directions in the beginning. You hands will eventually strengthen and learn to align themselves so perfectly that you can drive them to the wrists as hard as you can and the fingers will remained perfectly alligned.
With the cinder blocks I would just chain punch with a fairly hard rythem until my arms would fail. I would grip my fist as hard as I could as well as my forarms while doing it. Eventually I could strike smooth concrete almost as hard as I could swing. Fingers too. This really does make the hands harder, and you can actually inflict some serious injury to a person. The hands not only get tough and seem impervious to pain, but the alignment of the bone structure on impact is such that it hits harder as well. The hands train themselves as you beat on things.
This does not bid very well for the hands as you get older though. It will make arthritis way more noticable.
I never stuck my hands down in any of that puke that people use either. I simply soaked them in epsom salts and then rubbed them down heavily with glycerin. Stuff makes the hands really hot and feels great. Don't stink either.
I think sometimes that the striking power of a person might be influenced by the strength of the hands themselves. If you can punch like a mule kicking it will not matter if the fist comes apart on you or if you use your Bil it will fail on you if you strike really hard. Like hitting someone over the head with a smerf baseball bat. A little more wood in that bat will make it way more effective.

[HardWork8]

The only idiotic and irresponsible comments are from people who believe in this sort of traditional fantasy-foo.
There is nothing fantasy about it even if it is a bit "deep" as far as your brain is concerned.


If you believe that you or someone has the iron palm or that your iron palm training has had any benefit, step into the ring with a good fighter and see.
See what? You are confused again. Iron palm training was not designed for use in the ring. You should have known that even with your, at best, basic knowledge of kung fu.


Prove it, not with stories or legends or philosophy, but with performance.
You are the one who brings up the subject of legends and fantasies. Why don't you "prove it" and find an Iron Palm master, go to his kwoon and challenge him?

If you do gather the courage to do that then please be kind enough to warn him about the unusual thickness of your skull so that the poor man doesn't break his hand if he hits your head.


Or, point to someone that has proved it. Funny how no one has ever been able to produce that -- sort of like bigfoot, all kinds of stories, just no real, solid evidence.
Well there are a few of your fellow "Bigfoot in the mouths" that lurk in these forums, surely you don't mean them?


These things are silly, demo tricks, like breaking boards. And all they do is distract people from what is important in terms of developing martial skill.

Then go and actually challenge a few of these "tricksters" for yourself, then come back and tell us how bad they were in fighting.

Even your fellow modernists don't agree with you on this one.:rolleyes:

[SAAMAG]

HW8....

Though there are people that disagree with him on things...I think that you should try leaving out the trite remarks that lead nowhere. Perhaps that is why people react to you the way they do?

Just respond to the message, you don't have to chop it up so that you can make cutesy insults in EVERY one of your posts.

[HardWork8]

HW8....

Though there are people that disagree with him on things...
By "people" you mean everyone on this planet who practices authentic/traditional kung fu and even Karate!


I think that you should try leaving out the trite remarks that lead nowhere.
Oh, they do lead somewhere.


Perhaps that is why people react to you the way they do?
By "people" you surely mean kickboxers and pseudo kung fu-ists?


Just respond to the message, you don't have to chop it up so that you can make cutesy insults in EVERY one of your posts.
If you take the time to look at your fellow kickboxer friend's (t_niehoff's) first message in this thread, then you will see where the insults started.

[HardWork8]

HW8....

Though there are people that disagree with him on things...I think that you should try leaving out the trite remarks that lead nowhere. Perhaps that is why people react to you the way they do?

Just respond to the message, you don't have to chop it up so that you can make cutesy insults in EVERY one of your posts.


PS. And you can Stop attempting to derail every thread you happen to find me posting in. I have so far given you more attention than you deserve!

[Ali. R]

Regardless of what people say. I've seen people who didn't have much striking power break coconuts with their palms after IP training. Is it a trick? The best way to find is to buy a coconut and try it. ;)
Check your PM.


I don’t know Redmond?

Should I pull up a post were you actually praised Iron palm as taught by GM Cheung, as you showed a clip of some guys demonstrating breaks with cocoanuts and with three quarter inch patio slaps (the smallest, thinnest or beginner phase) and they were clean breaks, but their hands were well over their heads, in which showed very little time in that area…

But…. Never once did you identify their breaks as tricks, but only as the teachings of GM Cheung… What makes their breaks so righteous and stand up as you identify others as tricks or even question the ideal as a trick?

If one trains hard and has faith in himself and his abilities just with that info: that I give on my post, you will be able to crack a cocoa nut, there is noting specially involved at all, but trusting in yourself and run from those that keep things secret...

He who speaks of secrets, speaks deeply whitin his limitations…


Ali Rahim.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Why do Thai boxers kick so friggin hard? One, they've kicked a million times or more. Two, they've desensitized their shins and fortified the bones.

So, even if you don't get iron palm, per say, the fact that you're striking with the base of the wrist, the knuckles, and fingertips--or whatever regimen you have--you're striking a hard surface, incurring pain, healing, fortifying bone, and desensitizing your hands--all while you practice the correct manner of striking.

Iron palm has value even at face value.

[zuti car]

About William Cheung Iron palm tarining method i can say only one thing - exelent . Not only taht aftar completed training one can easy brake hard objects, but improves wing chun skill in general . I was a witnees when person improved his wing chun greatly in every aspect after completed Cheung s Iron Palm method.

[Phil Redmond]

I don’t know Redmond?

Should I pull up a post were you actually praised Iron palm as taught by GM Cheung, as you showed a clip of some guys demonstrating breaks with cocoanuts and with three quarter inch patio slaps (the smallest, thinnest or beginner phase) and they were clean breaks, but their hands were well over their heads, in which showed very little time in that area…

But…. Never once did you identify their breaks as tricks, but only as the teachings of GM Cheung… What makes their breaks so righteous and stand up as you identify others as tricks or even question the ideal as a trick?

If one trains hard and has faith in himself and his abilities just with that info: that I give on my post, you will be able to crack a cocoa nut, there is noting specially involved at all, but trusting in yourself and run from those that keep things secret...

He who speaks of secrets, speaks deeply whitin his limitations…


Ali Rahim.
I never said it was a trick. I never said the breaks were "righteous". I never mentioned William Cheung. You've misread my posts many times before. Read carefully then post. ;)

[Ali. R]

I never said it was a trick. I never said the breaks were "righteous". I never mentioned William Cheung. You've misread my posts many times before. Read carefully then post. ;)


I never said it was a trick

No you didn’t, basically you said that there are people that are breaking when its obvious that they don’t have the power to break such things, and that it could or could not be a trick…


I never said the breaks were "righteous"

No you didn’t, but you were more then happy when posting with them, when it’s obvious to anyone with Iron palm experience, when they broke those bricks, that they were all new to the game, breaking beginner stage patio slaps while forcefully using their technique, other then having enough power or skill too break cocoanuts…

And I’m not saying that the breaks are fake, but when you use words like "regardless of what people say", in the terms or people breaking things when they shouldn’t, and it could, or may not be fake… When you’re posting amateur breakers doing the same as your post mention, and never once did you add the word trick when you presented them, but very quick too use it when dealing with others (over all)…

And I had no ideal that Cheung has his own iron palm concepts, as I kept hearing many different times before…


Ali Rahim.

[jesper]

I believe he said that before they did the iron palm training they had weak strikes but after they could break coconuts.

Then he said you could decide for yourself if you thought it was a genuine way of conditioning your hands or just a trick

[Phil Redmond]

I believe he said that before they did the iron palm training they had weak strikes but after they could break coconuts.

Then he said you could decide for yourself if you thought it was a genuine way of conditioning your hands or just a trick
Thank you. Reading comprehension so very important on a written forum. I'm so glad that others understood what I wrote.

[Phil Redmond]

. . .No you didn’t, but you were more then happy when posting with them, when it’s obvious to anyone with Iron palm experience, when they broke those bricks, that they were all new to the game, breaking beginner stage patio slaps while forcefully using their technique, other then having enough power or skill too break cocoanuts… Ali Rahim.
Since you implied that they didn't have enough power to break coconuts here's one example of a first time coconut break. This was done with the coconut held in the hand which is harder than placing the coconut on a stable surface.
And yes, this was done after Sifu William Cheung's Iron Palm training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPIAeyOAHTg&feature=related

[k gledhill]

Just fyi, I trained to simply strike wall mounted bags with open hands . it gives a deep shocking force similar to hitting someone with a phone book, no surface marks like a knuckle strike.

Vertical palm spreads the elbow off the line as Tan sao , used for inside to outside clearing
anything relative to our attacking line.

Horizontal / Side palm, tucks the elbow in as Jum sao used to change attack angles using the elbows acute inward position to manipulate our arms to strike while removing the incoming attack in one action.... we used to strike small hanging bags full of rocks

The tan and sidepalm positions in the dummy is this thinking not an attack low to ribs while blocking with a tan, rather it is an alignment of angles and elbows working to face
at angles equally for either to strike , not both as an application...tan elbow in to move out while striking in, coupled with side palm aka elbow inwards aka jum sao , to cover the inside strike line . with either following the other in a fight it only matters to you and the reality you face that dictates which strike leads, or parry etc...backing up the angling training we do in freefighting, seung ma toi ma etc...

I hit guys in fights with palm strikes to heads , if they cam in head down in a low charge I would 'slap' the top of the head sharply as possible . It was effective for delivering stunning shots that might otherwise break a knuckle. As we fight bare handed so we need options to strike while adopting elbow angles with functioning open hand strikes /grabs.
Co-ordinated strike n grab can wrench a neck quickly , dislocate a jaw, fracture facial bones ...
And all the above is with just hitting a wall bag , no Iron palm video or 'course' to pay for the beach house :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

K, I think I pretty much agree with everything you have said here. I personally do not see any reason to abuse ones hands to make them harder, and just normal hand training can do that pretty well. I did train my hands, but didn't use any Iron Palm training as such. I did use hard surfaces and sand though. All this worked to make my hands hold form during a strike. Giving them greater efficiency.
When I was a younger man I worked day jobs as a printer, and I had a young co worker that invited me to attend his Karate school as he tested for his brown belt in TKD. I had followed his training some and we were friends, so I went with him. While there he went through all the drills and forms and eventually was upgraded to his brown belt ranking. Now, while there he introduced me to his Sensei, telling him I was some sort of Kung Fu fighter. This sparked interest and I think some need for showing me that Karate was where it was at. He asked me to give them a demonstration. I explained that we did not do forms like they did, and that I would not make a very good demonstration. He kept insisting and eventually wanted me to show him some moves against one of his intermediate students. I was not liking this at all, and felt as if I were being set upon rather than just being a guest. He explained that his student would use his past boxing skills and I could use my Kung Fu. After a bit of his insisting I agreed, but said I would only block. He understands blocking better so I used that term. He said that I could go full contact if I wanted to. I knew then that he was setting me up. So, we squared off and immediately the young man started trying to tear my head off. I did not strike him once, but managed to ward off all his attacks quite readily. He was fast and strong, and I was afraid that he would connect and ruin my weekend. So I was a bit brisk in my moves. After a few minutes he stopped and went to the side of the mat. He was done, and I was glad of it too. It could have turned ugly. After a while we left and several days later my friend informed me that the young boxer had gone to his doctor and found that both his forearms had fractures in the bones. He told his Sensei that the reason he stopped was that it was hurting his arms.
I have also found that the use of the slap hand is far more effective in some cases than a fist. Especially on hard surfaces like the skull. A hard slap downward at the solar plexus will make a big man lose control of his bodily functions, and a hard slap to the head can knock you out. Striking a head with your fist can injure you as well, and the injury to him is more localized with way less referal shock.
I also use pressure point striking when I can get away with it. Not anything like using acupuncture points and Dim Mak or anything, but soft spots and areas that have exposed nerve clusters, joint hinges, and the such. Also a lot of pushing and pulling to put a fellow off balance so I could get in a few shots at him before he could recover. Now I am rambling.

[SAAMAG]

PS. And you can Stop attempting to derail every thread you happen to find me posting in. I have so far given you more attention than you deserve!

Actually...you only came in to derail the thread based on T's statements. YOU'RE VERY FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD WAS A DERAILMENT...whereas everyone else's discussed the topic at hand. In fact...my first post in the thread had no relevance to you whatsoever.

So you're telling me that I derail threads?! That actually made me laugh out loud! But...I see you're improving your vocabulary with the help of CJ with the word "delrailment" in the other thread! Good job. At least you're learning something.

Now you're going to cut this into 30 pieces and try to make a preschool comeback on each one...because you thrive for the attention...thereby derailing the thread even more. Let's see if you're man enough to let this be...though I doubt it.

[k gledhill]

K, I think I pretty much agree with everything you have said here. I personally do not see any reason to abuse ones hands to make them harder, and just normal hand training can do that pretty well. I did train my hands, but didn't use any Iron Palm training as such. I did use hard surfaces and sand though. All this worked to make my hands hold form during a strike. Giving them greater efficiency.
When I was a younger man I worked day jobs as a printer, and I had a young co worker that invited me to attend his Karate school as he tested for his brown belt in TKD. I had followed his training some and we were friends, so I went with him. While there he went through all the drills and forms and eventually was upgraded to his brown belt ranking. Now, while there he introduced me to his Sensei, telling him I was some sort of Kung Fu fighter. This sparked interest and I think some need for showing me that Karate was where it was at. He asked me to give them a demonstration. I explained that we did not do forms like they did, and that I would not make a very good demonstration. He kept insisting and eventually wanted me to show him some moves against one of his intermediate students. I was not liking this at all, and felt as if I were being set upon rather than just being a guest. He explained that his student would use his past boxing skills and I could use my Kung Fu. After a bit of his insisting I agreed, but said I would only block. He understands blocking better so I used that term. He said that I could go full contact if I wanted to. I knew then that he was setting me up. So, we squared off and immediately the young man started trying to tear my head off. I did not strike him once, but managed to ward off all his attacks quite readily. He was fast and strong, and I was afraid that he would connect and ruin my weekend. So I was a bit brisk in my moves. After a few minutes he stopped and went to the side of the mat. He was done, and I was glad of it too. It could have turned ugly. After a while we left and several days later my friend informed me that the young boxer had gone to his doctor and found that both his forearms had fractures in the bones. He told his Sensei that the reason he stopped was that it was hurting his arms.
I have also found that the use of the slap hand is far more effective in some cases than a fist. Especially on hard surfaces like the skull. A hard slap downward at the solar plexus will make a big man lose control of his bodily functions, and a hard slap to the head can knock you out. Striking a head with your fist can injure you as well, and the injury to him is more localized with way less referal shock.
I also use pressure point striking when I can get away with it. Not anything like using acupuncture points and Dim Mak or anything, but soft spots and areas that have exposed nerve clusters, joint hinges, and the such. Also a lot of pushing and pulling to put a fellow off balance so I could get in a few shots at him before he could recover. Now I am rambling.

good stuff, WE did arm conditioning exercises "Gatt sao" [sp?phonetic] to toughen the sensations to arm contact with each other and fighting too.
Palms work well, I remember getting into a situation that ended up in a free fight with 3 security guys [me one of them] against 5-6 ? guys at a bar one night before X-mass many years ago. Long story short, a guy charges me after all hell breaks loose, he comes head down arm extended to do a 'grab and smash' so i make my space then cut into his timing with the 'palm from hell' :D on top of his head....done fight over , he staggered backwards holding his head in obvious pain unable to defend himself...I could have done anything to finish him but was blindsided by a standing scrum of another fight shoving into me ....

Another Palm memory :D we adopted 'lao saos' running hand to maintain centerlines whenever outward force was exerted as it came into attack in chi-sao....bad tan pushing out against a elbow in jum....we would release the jum to let the tan slip out [ like letting go suddenly of a tug of war rope] and forming a low palm from the jummed elbow in arm , simply letting the guy impale themselves on the low palm/arm position...many a time we cam close to seeing lunch of the recipient on our feet and surrounding floor areas :D...no force on our part jst release and hold positions to a unsuspecting entry...it taught good tan lines to strike along AND tight abdomens ad firm body control :D

Another time :rolleyes: random memories, two students of V Kan were sparring as a demo in Central London theater . {btw first time I met S Kwok }...the 2 guys are sparrig and during the session they used palms for the control of cutting % from knuckles...but as the history of the 2 wasnt known [ didnt like each others sparring controls] it became a little war :rolleyes: only nobody but the V Kan students knew this
Sooo it ends up a little harder palms to the face than usual, resulting in one Student needing to go to hospital an hour later , after feeling 'pins and needles' in the left side of his face near his nose [sign of a fractured bone] ....the x-rays showed a fracture to the facial bone that had damaged the nerve running down the side of the nose / cheek area... it was slightly swollen too , but came an hour after the demo.

More raqndom bits...Ive broken bricks with a palm easy just for the 'hmm abrick...?] while running at night for fitness training and seeing a building site ... it takes a few slaps to learn the force and then the mystery is gone , its just a kiln dried piece of material...
And yes bricks dont hit back ;)

palm angles allow the same 'elbow' ideas to work for striking as fists from tan/jum. with
manipulative hand work from the open hands.


ramble over.

back to you

[HardWork8]

Actually...you only came in to derail the thread based on T's statements.

False statement(Yet again!).

My statement that was based on T's statement was to emphasis the existance of Iron Palm as a valid methodology.


YOU'RE VERY FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD WAS A DERAILMENT...
False statement!


whereas everyone else's discussed the topic at hand. In fact...my first post in the thread had no relevance to you whatsoever.
I was not talking about your first post!


So you're telling me that I derail threads?! That actually made me laugh out loud!
Glad to cheer you up after what I did to you in the other thread!


But...I see you're improving your vocabulary with the help of CJ with the word "delrailment" in the other thread! Good job. At least you're learning something.
And it ain't kung fu, NOT from you guys. However, don't worry as I will call you up anytime I decide to learn kickboxing or pseudo-kungfu or even the "internal art of Shotokan"LOL!


Now you're going to cut this into 30 pieces and try to make a preschool comeback on each one...
Well, I like to be thorough when I answer posts. I don't pick and chose the points like you and some of your kickboxer colleagues.


because you thrive for the attention...
Yes I do, but not from you. You are the wrong sex, so beat it!


thereby derailing the thread even more.
You mean even more than you did when you criticized my post to Terrence old boy?


Let's see if you're man enough to let this be...though I doubt it.
Lets see if you are man enough to stop "jumping" on me at every opportunity. I mean why don't use all the wasted typing time to practice some REAL kung fu?

[Lee Chiang Po]

K, an example of hard hands. I lived in New Orleans back in the late 60's and I was acquainted with a city detective that did board breaking during demonstrations at the academy, and rather than the little inch thick boards with sticks or penicls between them, he did a 2 x 4 with his palm. No tricks, no cracked boards, just a new 2 x 4 that was braced well. He didn't have a draw back either. He just shot his hand forward from about a foot away and the board smashed in half. Never broke cleanly though, but was held together by splinters.
With my right hand I have to use my palm, if I were to have to fight. I can not make a proper fist. And I feel comfortable in saying that I can hit and cause a lot of damage with a palm strike. It is my strongest hand. I worked in a few large dance halls where fighting was common, and I was one of the bouncers. It was probably not a good idea as I was only 5'4" tall, and when someone can look out across the top of your head they act silly. They do not take into consideration that you might weight 200 pounds and be made up of raw bone and muscle. There was always one of them that would get to thinking they can whip you and start working toward it. I think the most common attack was the attempted sucker punch while you were dealing with someone else. I would always keep a close watch for anyone coming close in from one side. Happened a lot. Then there were the guys that wanted to take you down and tie you up with a wrestling move. I would lower my center of gravity and being usually shorter than the other guy he could not really get down under me. I would give him one of the hardest slaps on top of his head he ever experienced. I have actually knocked a few people out like that. The lick is so loud everyone stops and looks at you. Like a gun shot.
I guess my worst night on the job was when a very large man was beating on a really small guy. I tried to get between them without getting hit in an effort to break it up, but the guy laid in on me. I managed to break his grip on me and reeled him backwards on a table, and when he came up off the table I did the solar plexus slap and when he leaned over toward me I grabbed him by his lips. I had his lips all rolled up in my left hand. He was completely defeated. He was trying to scream but my hand was in his face and preventing him really screaming out. Then his wife ran up behind me and shot me square in my ass. I can not really describe how that felt. It felt as if my butt had exploded. I could not let go of him or he would start up on me again, so I just reached out and popped her right in the tip of the nose. You never seen so much blood in your life as her nose was spewing and my ass was spewing. It totally ruined my weekend. That was the straw that broke the camels back. My wife told me that I had worked my last night as a bouncer. It was a .22, but was loaded with hollow points. They will make a mess of ones rear end. I don't know why, maybe my age now, but in those days I had no fear. Today if I thought I was going to have to fight I think it would scare me to death.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just a side note, IP does not (should not) mark or deform your hands very much, if at all.
Mutant hands aside (and there are some out there with mutant hands simple because that may be how their body reacts to the training or it may be that TYPE of training), if you look at the hands of the majority of IP guys, while you well see a difference between their IP{ hand and their non-IP hand, its only really noticable if you look for it.
Forging works that way, if you take care of your hands, the evidence of forging is minimal and that goes for Makiwara work as well.

The difference between an "IP break" and a typical break is that the IP one is done with less force, more like just dropping the hand, maybe with a "slap", rather than drilling the hand full force into the target.

[SAAMAG]

K, an example of hard hands. I lived in New Orleans back in the late 60's and I was acquainted with a city detective that did board breaking during demonstrations at the academy, and rather than the little inch thick boards with sticks or penicls between them, he did a 2 x 4 with his palm. No tricks, no cracked boards, just a new 2 x 4 that was braced well. He didn't have a draw back either. He just shot his hand forward from about a foot away and the board smashed in half. Never broke cleanly though, but was held together by splinters.
With my right hand I have to use my palm, if I were to have to fight. I can not make a proper fist. And I feel comfortable in saying that I can hit and cause a lot of damage with a palm strike. It is my strongest hand. I worked in a few large dance halls where fighting was common, and I was one of the bouncers. It was probably not a good idea as I was only 5'4" tall, and when someone can look out across the top of your head they act silly. They do not take into consideration that you might weight 200 pounds and be made up of raw bone and muscle. There was always one of them that would get to thinking they can whip you and start working toward it. I think the most common attack was the attempted sucker punch while you were dealing with someone else. I would always keep a close watch for anyone coming close in from one side. Happened a lot. Then there were the guys that wanted to take you down and tie you up with a wrestling move. I would lower my center of gravity and being usually shorter than the other guy he could not really get down under me. I would give him one of the hardest slaps on top of his head he ever experienced. I have actually knocked a few people out like that. The lick is so loud everyone stops and looks at you. Like a gun shot.
I guess my worst night on the job was when a very large man was beating on a really small guy. I tried to get between them without getting hit in an effort to break it up, but the guy laid in on me. I managed to break his grip on me and reeled him backwards on a table, and when he came up off the table I did the solar plexus slap and when he leaned over toward me I grabbed him by his lips. I had his lips all rolled up in my left hand. He was completely defeated. He was trying to scream but my hand was in his face and preventing him really screaming out. Then his wife ran up behind me and shot me square in my ass. I can not really describe how that felt. It felt as if my butt had exploded. I could not let go of him or he would start up on me again, so I just reached out and popped her right in the tip of the nose. You never seen so much blood in your life as her nose was spewing and my ass was spewing. It totally ruined my weekend. That was the straw that broke the camels back. My wife told me that I had worked my last night as a bouncer. It was a .22, but was loaded with hollow points. They will make a mess of ones rear end. I don't know why, maybe my age now, but in those days I had no fear. Today if I thought I was going to have to fight I think it would scare me to death.


That's amazing that you can recall your fights in such detail. Personally, I can't do that very well. Most of my fights I can remember bits and pieces, some fights I just can't remember anything.

For example last night I had a great newaza session in judo, and got a lot of submissions between 3 of my classmates...I remember a successful RNC, the omaplata attempt, an arm bar attempt, 3-4 successful armbars, but don't really recall all of the details as to how I got them. Eh...I'm getting old.

[k gledhill]

K, an example of hard hands. I lived in New Orleans back in the late 60's and I was acquainted with a city detective that did board breaking during demonstrations at the academy, and rather than the little inch thick boards with sticks or penicls between them, he did a 2 x 4 with his palm. No tricks, no cracked boards, just a new 2 x 4 that was braced well. He didn't have a draw back either. He just shot his hand forward from about a foot away and the board smashed in half. Never broke cleanly though, but was held together by splinters.
With my right hand I have to use my palm, if I were to have to fight. I can not make a proper fist. And I feel comfortable in saying that I can hit and cause a lot of damage with a palm strike. It is my strongest hand. I worked in a few large dance halls where fighting was common, and I was one of the bouncers. It was probably not a good idea as I was only 5'4" tall, and when someone can look out across the top of your head they act silly. They do not take into consideration that you might weight 200 pounds and be made up of raw bone and muscle. There was always one of them that would get to thinking they can whip you and start working toward it. I think the most common attack was the attempted sucker punch while you were dealing with someone else. I would always keep a close watch for anyone coming close in from one side. Happened a lot. Then there were the guys that wanted to take you down and tie you up with a wrestling move. I would lower my center of gravity and being usually shorter than the other guy he could not really get down under me. I would give him one of the hardest slaps on top of his head he ever experienced. I have actually knocked a few people out like that. The lick is so loud everyone stops and looks at you. Like a gun shot.
I guess my worst night on the job was when a very large man was beating on a really small guy. I tried to get between them without getting hit in an effort to break it up, but the guy laid in on me. I managed to break his grip on me and reeled him backwards on a table, and when he came up off the table I did the solar plexus slap and when he leaned over toward me I grabbed him by his lips. I had his lips all rolled up in my left hand. He was completely defeated. He was trying to scream but my hand was in his face and preventing him really screaming out. Then his wife ran up behind me and shot me square in my ass. I can not really describe how that felt. It felt as if my butt had exploded. I could not let go of him or he would start up on me again, so I just reached out and popped her right in the tip of the nose. You never seen so much blood in your life as her nose was spewing and my ass was spewing. It totally ruined my weekend. That was the straw that broke the camels back. My wife told me that I had worked my last night as a bouncer. It was a .22, but was loaded with hollow points. They will make a mess of ones rear end. I don't know why, maybe my age now, but in those days I had no fear. Today if I thought I was going to have to fight I think it would scare me to death.


LMAO ! I had a fight one night with a guy who nearly ran me over xing the street after I left a bar doing security work, we got stuck into each other and long story short.. ended up on the hood of another car on the other side :D we are in a stalemate fighting and suddenly I get this "WACK" on my right eye...'THE GIRLFRIEND" had come to his rescue :D we shouted pleasantries at each other , I ended up with a huge 'mouse' over my right eye as a result of the GF , but got tender loving attention from the ladies at the bar I was heading too so it was ok ;).
We didnt have guns in the UK that anyone was aware of , they are like rare toys guys pull out once in a while ergo the high levels of random fist/knife/glass fights and street brawls after bars closed at 11:oo/30 pm in the old days .

Palms are good for striking with witnesses watching. The 'witness' will tend to see vt as the aggressive attacking psycho V the poor guy who was about to hit you . By using palms you could tell the police [who are usually on the security's side] that you "threw out your hands to push the guy off you to defend yourself ..and he fell over unconcious" we need an angel and halo icon here ! :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

Van, actually, I am only telling it like I remember it. I am sure it didn't go exactly like that. The next day I find lip cuts and black eyes that I cannot for the life of me remember happening. I only remember the parts that make the difference. I also find that if one can hold focus, even under extreme conditions he stands a much better chance of survival. Here in the past few years my short term memory is almost none existant. I can remember happenings from a life time ago, but I can hardly tell you what happened 2 days ago.

[Lee Chiang Po]

K, back in the 60's and 70's no one packed. It was fists and feet, or occasionally a knife. But knives were at the time considered the choice of cowards. Then eventually the gun started to become the weapon of choice for most everyone. This would be my worst fear today if I were to have a serious confrontation. If a man goes into a pocket or seems to be reaching for something, you kill him. That was just a joke!! Actually, I have started packing myself.
I rode over into Dallas with a friend who also packs. We were standing outside his truck waiting for some boxes of chicken parts to come out the dock door. We were standing there talking when a tall, skinny guy walked up to us, but was actually closer to my friend. He told him to give up his money or he would shoot him. He had his hand in a jacket pocket, and instead of a gun he was holding a banana. I could see it. I started laughing and he got all mad and threatened to shoot me too. I pulled my rod out and pointed it at him and he pulled the banana out and started grinning. He said he was only kidding and turned and took off. I probably should have shot him. That was just last year too.

[k gledhill]

:D hah ! is that banana loaded ?:D:D:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sorry for the lighting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-EUdSIqWNo

:p

[SAAMAG]

Good clean break. Was that you Sanjuro?

[Mr Punch]

Sorry for the lighting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-EUdSIqWNo

:p
Pah, you don't fool us with you cheap kickboxing tricks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good clean break. Was that you Sanjuro?

No, it was my chi !
LOL !



Pah, you don't fool us with you cheap kickboxing tricks.

I'd show you my Iron Schlong breaks but I need a wider lens !
:D

[Graychuan]

Iron Palm Striking Set (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8vrsA0Fpx0): Woo Fai Ching System

Enjoy..or not. :p