How the hell do you get faster?

[monkeyfoot]

I know that speed is not the only important thing and that correct body mechanics, alignment and use of energy could be considered more important, but how do you develop 'fast hands'.

When I run through a form, trying to use decent structure and properly extending the strikes, I look and feel slow. I dont understand how some people are lightning quick. I'm pretty slim, so really there shouldn't be a problem with speed.

Is it possible that people miss subtle parts of movements or only half extend strikes to save time??? Also, what would you consider the best methods for training the speed and 'whipping' type power in mantis.

Cheers people

Craig

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is speed and then there is quickness and then there is reaction time.


correct body mechanics, alignment and use of energy...

Answered your own question eh?
:D

[BruceSteveRoy]

one thing that we do at my school in our basics class that i think helps build speed while maintaining correct posture and execution of technique is we go through a short form 3 times at a slower pace to make sure that all of movements are done correctly. we don't focus on power, or speed just accuracy. then we do it 3 more times and focus just on power and again speed isn't the goal here. we just make sure our foot work is right and thr power generation from each technique is right. then do it three more times and just focus on speed. this is speed without the power which means alot of it flows more and your body is more relaxed. then the last 3 times we put it all together and go out with full speed and power.

it takes time but you get faster and more powerful. now with that in mind if speed is what you are focusing on when training try relaxing when you go through your forms and see if you speed up at all and then slowly reintroduce the power behind your technique.

the other thing i want to say that helped me with speed in general is lifting and interval training. my cycling coach and my running coach both kept prattling on about the merits of interval training to incease speed. and they were right. i would look at my run and bike times and they kept getting better as i did harder and harder interval sessions. but it translated well to my kung fu too. i noticed i could move my legs faster with more power and then the rest of my body followed along. and i am on a wicked good lifting program that has helped a lot. (http://www.amazon.com/New-Rules-Lifting-Maximum-Muscle/dp/1583332383/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210773775&sr=8-1)

[Mr Punch]

Do interval sprints.

[BruceSteveRoy]

as a general rule listen to mr. punch. if he isn't making fun of you or being sarcastic his information is pretty much always dead on. but then again when he is being sarcastic and/or making fun of you his opinion is pretty much dead on as well.

[Pork Chop]

Relax.
Run through the form at taichi speed, this helps build muscle memory.
Reading a boxing book right now and Olympic boxer Andre Ward's coach is having his fighters throwing punches at tai chi speed (with proper mechanics) so they can use proper mechanics at a faster speed when they start going full speed.
You don't need to be tense to have good power - good mechanics are more important.

Plyometrics, kettle bell swings, olympic lifts, and even some big compound lifts are known to help speed & explosiveness, in addition to the interval sprints mr punch recommended.

[TaichiMantis]

Also, try doing your forms with weighted gloves (no more than 2lbs). They help you feel the correct mechanics of your strikes and you will be quicker when you do your form/strikes without them.;)

[Lucas]

Be born as me. Then you will naturally be imbued with all the quickness, and speed of greesed lightning.

[Mr Punch]

as a general rule listen to mr. punch. if he isn't making fun of you or being sarcastic his information is pretty much always dead on. but then again when he is being sarcastic and/or making fun of you his opinion is pretty much dead on as well.My advice is to listen to this man. He obviously knows what he's talking about.


here (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77385&highlight=alwyn+cosgrove+interview)

MAP: Also, taking about speed training, should a fighter expect much upper body carryover from lower body speed work? Would they expect faster hand speed from running ladders, or should they stick with speed bags, sparring, double ends balls, and other tools and methods?


AC: Speed is a neural component more than a localized muscular component. I’ve never seen an elite sprinter who’s arms moved slower than his legs!Your hand speed will not increase by doing the same things. If you reach a certain speed plateau hitting the bag, you're not going to get any faster by just hitting the bag more.

BTW, doing forms in the air at speed can be detrimental to your joint health, and I suspect is rarely beneficial to your skills at fighting after the beginner stages of muscle appropriation.

BTW 2, I disagree with Tainan Mantis. Gloves weigh your hands down, which is not natural direction of force in a punch, so it's likely to monkey with the dynamics of your actions. Two pounds is not heavy enough either to make any difference. If you're going to use weights, use BIG FAT ones, use split stances, go slowly, and try to mimic the movements without the pressure going down (sometimes this will take you lying on your back, leaning over, or using pulley machines). The effect of speed you feel when you put the weights down is just that: a feeling.

BTW 3, POrk Chop is also correct, but I suspect that although the plateau is harder to reach than air drills, plyometrics with bodyweight or weights will be easier to plateau than with interval sprints.

Just a couple of thoughts. Oh, and don't forget to listen to Bruce.

[Mr Punch]

Be born as me. Then you will naturally be imbued with all the quickness, and speed of greesed lightning.
Greased pole more like...

[Lucas]

Hey....I never said WHAT I was fast at....:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Speed is highly genetic, you get to your top speed, that is pretty much it.
After that you need to work on quickness and reaction/action time.

If you are fast, then you are fast at almost anything physical.
get the boxer with the fastest hands in a gym and he probably will be the fastest runner too.

Perfecting go mechanics is crucial, learning how to explode off "the block" is paramount, as is relaxing through the move.
All the things a good sprinter does.

I agree with Mr.Punch, try to avoid full speed hitting into the air, it will make you pay for it eventually.

I have found that for some people, working combinations more helps, the 2nd or 3rd strike in a combo tends to be the fastest, but sometimes that can produce "arm punchers" so be careful to always put your body into the strikes.

[BoulderDawg]

Use nitro...I don't know....

I think quickness and reaction time is more important than speed. However each of us has an optimum level of this and that level decreases as we age. Lot at that girl who just retired from tennis. She's 25 years old and, I guess, she feels she's over the hill. Of course tennis relies on natural ability more than any other sport.....it's also quite boring....anyway

I think to optimize your speed and quickness you need to not only increase the fitness level of your body but also your mental ability to process information. The body only moves because the brain tells it to.

[Lucas]

My taiji teacher would tell me 'you need to touch the hot stove'.

If you can remember the first time you touched a hot stove, or a somewhat recent time you were burned.

That explosion that is your natural reaction is very important. that moment when your body reacts, it will un-conciously use your full potential to avoid harm. when your body reacts this way, notice how fast it is. compared to your every day movements.

so for instance if I am practicing a single forward elbow, or punch, or what have you and I am working my fajing, or my explosiveness, I will try to immulate this element of reaction.

Like a coiled spring, relaxed yet on the brink of that explosion. this of course involves more than just having your muscles 'ready', in regards to martial applicability. structure is just as important. but remember, you do NOT want to be tense. relaxed yet prepared for violent action. like a coiled snake, or a cat waiting to pounce in ambush. you want your entire body to be ready to react in an instant.

for instance when you throw a simple punch. are you REALLY using all of your muscles? From your foot to your hand, there is a string of muscluar contraction that takes place. Yet often times, we dont use every muscle at our disposal. we will create gaps in this string. slowing us down. to get past this there are numerous ways to find what muscles are missing. applied resistance is one of our best friends here. but to re train some of these muscles to 'get with the program' requires concious effort.

This is an element that can be taken into account, regardless of genetic pre disposition. of course this is just a basic outline on this aspect.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My taiji teacher would tell me 'you need to touch the hot stove'.

If you can remember the first time you touched a hot stove, or a somewhat recent time you were burned.

That explosion that is your natural reaction is very important. that moment when your body reacts, it will un-conciously use your full potential to avoid harm. when your body reacts this way, notice how fast it is. compared to your every day movements.

so for instance if I am practicing a single forward elbow, or punch, or what have you and I am working my fajing, or my explosiveness, I will try to immulate this element of reaction.

Like a coiled spring, relaxed yet on the brink of that explosion. this of course involves more than just having your muscles 'ready', in regards to martial applicability. structure is just as important. but remember, you do NOT want to be tense. relaxed yet prepared for violent action. like a coiled snake, or a cat waiting to pounce in ambush. you want your entire body to be ready to react in an instant.

for instance when you throw a simple punch. are you REALLY using all of your muscles? From your foot to your hand, there is a string of muscluar contraction that takes place. Yet often times, we dont use every muscle at our disposal. we will create gaps in this string. slowing us down. to get past this there are numerous ways to find what muscles are missing. applied resistance is one of our best friends here. but to re train some of these muscles to 'get with the program' requires concious effort.

This is an element that can be taken into account, regardless of genetic pre disposition. of course this is just a basic outline on this aspect.

The "hot stove" and "the sneeze" are two fine examples of natural quickness, but, have you ever seen them in combos?
Its sort of a trick question...

[Lucas]

with your sense of humor, i cant tell if you are asking:

a. have i ever seen someone get burned and sneeze at the same time.

or

b. apply this element to a combination of movements.

;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

with your sense of humor, i cant tell if you are asking:

a. have i ever seen someone get burned and sneeze at the same time.

or

b. apply this element to a combination of movements.

;)

That's the trick, you will never see fajing ( as an example) applied in a "typical" combo, the reason has to do with the sudden deceleration of the strike, it doesn't flow well into another strike with a "set point".
Like the sneeze or the hand withdrawing from a flame/hot stove.

[Lucas]

That's the trick, you will never see fajing ( as an example) applied in a "typical" combo, the reason has to do with the sudden deceleration of the strike, it doesn't flow well into another strike with a "set point".
Like the sneeze or the hand withdrawing from a flame/hot stove.

K, gotcha.

IMO, its more of a reactionary or intiative element. the factor that I can see being applied to a follow up movement, with or without the initial fajing, would be the structure and use of muscular contraction. For a 'combo' it would be, imo, more of a stop and go type thing.

bruce lee did this all the time in the moves :cool::eek:

but a fluid flowing string of attack/defense....

althought as your first post in this thread, the OP addressed that in his initial post.

also as pointed out by boulderdog, mental properties are just as, if not more, important. speed of perception, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

K, gotcha.

IMO, its more of a reactionary or intiative element. the factor that I can see being applied to a follow up movement, with or without the initial fajing, would be the structure and use of muscular contraction. For a 'combo' it would be, imo, more of a stop and go type thing.

bruce lee did this all the time in the moves :cool::eek:

but a fluid flowing string of attack/defense....

althought as your first post in this thread, the OP addressed that in his initial post.

also as pointed out by boulderdog, mental properties are just as, if not more, important. speed of perception, etc.

Correct.
Speed is, in reality, how fast your strike moves, so it is crucial for th epower of your strike.
Quickness is how fast you get "off the blocks" or transition from A to B.
Reaction/Action is how fast you "respond/intiate" off the blocks.

Or some crap like that.

That are all mostly genetic and have limited ability of development once you have reached your peak or close to it, and they go aways even faster.

What CAN be developed and maintained longer is the far crucial element of explosiveness.

[SanHeChuan]

I would suggest developing speed independently and then adding on to your structure. Other wise "too many mind". If you're worried about weather or not you're doing the mechanic right you will have to slow down to stay correct and won't develop the speed you're looking for.

One element to think about is to focus on the punch return and making that faster, rather than making it fast on the way out. Concentrating on the return will natural make the out motion faster.

[David Jamieson]

Get rid of that POS american car and buy a porsche.
voila, you are now faster and sexier as well.

:p

[BoulderDawg]

I like the analogy of the hot stove for reaction time. Of course to reproduce this without the hot stove is difficult. It's kinda like the story of a old woman picking up a car to save a life. She could not do that unless it was for the adrenalin rush.

Concerning reaction time I once read a story about the Columbine shooting that was interesting. When it started a frantic student ran into the cafeteria and yelled that someone was shooting and to get down......From what I understand the vast majority of students simply froze and did not move until the guy came in and actually started shooting. So it seems we have to be assured of danger before the additional speed and power kicks in.

As far as I'm concerned if someone tells me I'm in danger I take immediate actions...if it's a ruse I will deal with that later!:D

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

10,000 reps.

[bodhitree]

1. Sprints (as mentioned)

2. Complex lifts (with heavy weight)

3. When working skills, do it fast......

[kwaichang]

Weights develop fast twitch or power muscle, speed drills develop slow twitch also there is an intermediate fiber that can go either way if speed is there then you set the timing and carry the fight. Reaction is much faster than action . There is a short cut for reaction compared to action. Action takes conscious movement as opposed to re-action that does not it taps into the un-conscious and is therefore faster. As far as training go to Lowes, buy 3/8 bunji cord this is progressive resisted resistance the shorter the bunji and the longer the punch the more resistance at the terminal end of the movement thus greater speed due to graduated resistance. It does not sacrifice form either as the pull is in direct line with the technique. Hope this helps. KC

[bodhitree]

Weights develop fast twitch or power muscle, speed drills develop slow twitch also there is an intermediate fiber that can go either way if speed is there then you set the timing and carry the fight. Reaction is much faster than action . There is a short cut for reaction compared to action. Action takes conscious movement as opposed to re-action that does not it taps into the un-conscious and is therefore faster. As far as training go to Lowes, buy 3/8 bunji cord this is progressive resisted resistance the shorter the bunji and the longer the punch the more resistance at the terminal end of the movement thus greater speed due to graduated resistance. It does not sacrifice form either as the pull is in direct line with the technique. Hope this helps. KC


um, no (part in bold)

[kwaichang]

Um no what ?? I am sorry you are mistaken. KC

[bodhitree]

Um no what ?? I am sorry you are mistaken. KC

Doing movements fast does not do anything to develop slow twitch muscles. Re-read your **** anatomy book there buddy....

Slow twitch muscles are fueled by, um, well, slow movements. An example of this would be endurance sports (triathelon, marathon, etc..). Hence the name, slow twitch:rolleyes:

Medium twitch muscles tend to be developed through higher intensity activity, as they are fueled by glycogen. Fast twitch generally operate on ATP and slow twitch on oxygen and glycogen, but these are not really relevant to you wrong statements....

[kwaichang]

Fast Twitch (Type II)
Because fast twitch fibers use anaerobic metabolism to create fuel, they are much better at generating short bursts of strength or speed than slow muscles. However, they fatigue more quickly. Fast twitch fibers generally produce the same amount of force per contraction as slow muscles, but they get their name because they are able to fire more rapidly. Having more fast twitch fibers can be an asset to a sprinter since she needs to quickly generate a lot of force.
I bold the pertinant points. Speed is develped through repetition thus endurance or slow twitch are mor pertinant to this concept. However most studies do apply to the Lower extremities and since their are three body types Meso Endo and Ecto morph rarely is an individual the same through out as a matter of fact some are Ecto and Meso or other comb. This said and since few if any can throw ONE PUNCH and that end a fight endurance in punching is more pertinant to speed than strength or Fast twitch. Sure if you only throw one or two punches fast twitch is better but not for MA or Punching. Also Muscle size and attachment also apply. Thats another subject though. KC

[Oso]

Relax.
Run through the form at taichi speed, this helps build muscle memory.
Reading a boxing book right now and Olympic boxer Andre Ward's coach is having his fighters throwing punches at tai chi speed (with proper mechanics) so they can use proper mechanics at a faster speed when they start going full speed.
You don't need to be tense to have good power - good mechanics are more important.

this can be good for sure

Plyometrics, kettle bell swings, olympic lifts, and even some big compound lifts are known to help speed & explosiveness, in addition to the interval sprints mr punch recommended.

speed is a component of expressed power or the rate at which work is performed...you can be strong as hell but if you can't deliver that strength quickly then you have no power...so plyometrics and most of the olympic lifts make you work fast and develop speed. This is something I've totally missed as a coach and am working to understand more fully and apply to the training of my students.

[Oso]

Doing movements fast does not do anything to develop slow twitch muscles. Re-read your **** anatomy book there buddy....

Slow twitch muscles are fueled by, um, well, slow movements. An example of this would be endurance sports (triathelon, marathon, etc..). Hence the name, slow twitch:rolleyes:

Medium twitch muscles tend to be developed through higher intensity activity, as they are fueled by glycogen. Fast twitch generally operate on ATP and slow twitch on oxygen and glycogen, but these are not really relevant to you wrong statements....


i've never seen the phrase 'medium twitch', can you elaborate? 'medium twitch' would infer a 3rd muscle fiber type beyond Type I and Type II.

what I've been reading lately basically (i.e. my interpretation) says that the lesser the demand for strength and power, the less the Type II's are recruited. I would say then, that 'medium' demand would just recruit more of the Type II's in a curve relating to the demand.

[Oso]

1. Sprints (as mentioned)

2. Complex lifts (with heavy weight)

3. When working skills, do it fast......

sorry, I'm reading backwards through this thread...


but yea, in relation to your 3rd point:

it is only the individual that can make themselves do something faster, is it not?

i've been of the opinion that when doing skill related drills, it is only the brain and neural complexes of the individual that can make them actually do something faster...certainly power related exercises can breed the muscles and synapses to fire faster but there is a point further up the chain where the interpretive skills of the individual are the root of the electron's firing down the line...and of course skill drills and live sparring are the tools to enhance those things but is there not a fundamental aptitude that is required to be fast?

everyone can become faster but I think there is a baseline from which we all get better from and those with better baselines due to genetics can go further with the same training. ergo: not everyone is equally capable of the same ends.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Unless there is something physically wrong, everyone is capable of quick movement, but some are naturally quicker. Speed is important, but it is not everything. I do not know how you do your forms, but I have seen Mantis a few times. I feel that the practitioner was way too tense. He could have been far more relaxed in his moves. Too jerky. Fluid motion is raw speed. Like water. Water does not flow all that fast, but once it begins to flow, it is almost impossible to catch. I do a different kind of Kung Fu, and I do the forms many times in a single day. Or I did at one time. My aim was to gain perfect form and focus. Structure some like to call it. As I became more able to maintain close to perfect form it naturally began to get faster. I am not lightning fast, but my movements are what I like to call fluid. If I move first it is very difficult to catch me.
As a young man I would do a form no less than 20 times in a single day. Probably not a lot to some people. But I would do the first few sets as slowly as I could while still maintaining form and focus. Then as I progressed I would do it faster and faster. If I began to lose form and focus I was called on it and I would have to start over doing it slowly again. I have seen some forms done really fast and they lacked all the form and focus of that particular form. Speed is important, but not all important. Practice is what makes us perfect, and doing your forms with as much form and focus as you can will eventually equate to that fluid speed that you are wanting.

[Becca]

10,000 reps.10,000 reps done wrong will net you a wrong movement. Practice does not make perfect. perfect practice makes perfect.

And since I have't seen this mentioned in 3 pages of advise, you can't gain speed if your muscles are tense. If you are focussing unduely on perfect movement, you might be a little to tense to generate any real speed. So... do the form or combo several times "by the count" to get your posture correct. Then do the form or combo several times slow but flowing to get the movement correct. Then do the form or combo several times at half speed to get the flow correct. Then do the form several times as fast as you can to work on accuracy. Don't work the form for speed and power; if you are working all of the above every time you work the form, speed and power will come in time.


edit: Lee did touch on the tense muscles a bit.

[Oso]

One element to think about is to focus on the punch return and making that faster, rather than making it fast on the way out. Concentrating on the return will natural make the out motion faster.

well, focus on the whole movement and it's transition to the next movement and the continuous flow of power along those lines of movement. the entire thing should be as equally fast as it needs to be to get the job done.

[TenTigers]

Simply put, there are three types of speed: Natural Speed, Perceptual Speed, and Reactive Speed

Bruce Lee was gifted with natural speed, which he developed, and then worked on developing the other two as well.

Natural Speed-this can be increased by learning how to relax the antagonistic muscle groups, allowing the protagonistic muscles to do their job. This comes from repetition (perfect practice) the idea of 1,000 reps is that the body will seek the path of least resistance. By the time you getthere, the body has exausted its antagonistic muscle groups-it will develop the correct neuropathways.
"Repetition is the Mother of Skill"

Perceptual Speed-how fast the brain processes-the eye sees it, it travels to the brain, and it is processes. and you react. Drills using peripheral vision, reaction drills, etc One of the things Bruce Lee used to do is while sitting at a resteraunt, he would watch someone having a conversation with someone, or eating. As soon as he detected the person about to speak, or about to move his fork, he would say,"ah!"

Reactive Speed-picking up from perceptual speed,and reacting.

Bruce lee had an exercise that entailed putting the TV on to an action show/movie, and turn the sound down. Whenever the camera angle changed (which is very quickly and often) throw your technique. The cues are totally random,with broken rhythm.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, good point, Oso, bout the weights.

The only reason I didn't mention weights in my post over resistance bands/pulley machines, is because although lifting heavy weights will increase your speed, unless you're doing the twin gods of whole-body working-out: squats and deads, you're possibly not getting much carry over into specific MA related movements.

Benching heavy isn't really going to help your punch so much, though I suppose it may help with some groudwork movements (even then, I think the dynamics of your shrimping would be pretty messed up if your bench is helping that much - but I'm no expert). That's why resistance bands/pulleys working in the direction of the movement is better (and maybe the bungee cord LCP is on about if you're not in the gym).

[bodhitree]

i've never seen the phrase 'medium twitch', can you elaborate? 'medium twitch' would infer a 3rd muscle fiber type beyond Type I and Type II.

what I've been reading lately basically (i.e. my interpretation) says that the lesser the demand for strength and power, the less the Type II's are recruited. I would say then, that 'medium' demand would just recruit more of the Type II's in a curve relating to the demand.

It's actually type IIa and type IIb.

[bodhitree]

Fast Twitch (Type II)
Because fast twitch fibers use anaerobic metabolism to create fuel, they are much better at generating short bursts of strength or speed than slow muscles. However, they fatigue more quickly. Fast twitch fibers generally produce the same amount of force per contraction as slow muscles, but they get their name because they are able to fire more rapidly. Having more fast twitch fibers can be an asset to a sprinter since she needs to quickly generate a lot of force.
I bold the pertinant points. Speed is develped through repetition thus endurance or slow twitch are mor pertinant to this concept. However most studies do apply to the Lower extremities and since their are three body types Meso Endo and Ecto morph rarely is an individual the same through out as a matter of fact some are Ecto and Meso or other comb. This said and since few if any can throw ONE PUNCH and that end a fight endurance in punching is more pertinant to speed than strength or Fast twitch. Sure if you only throw one or two punches fast twitch is better but not for MA or Punching. Also Muscle size and attachment also apply. Thats another subject though. KC


That's the only time I've ever read something like that.....

what is the source?

[Oso]

according to the dudes I'm reading now (Kraemer & Fleck: Optimizing Strength Training) exercises like the Clean and the Snatch are going to develop speed.

"High speed movements incorporating the stretch-shortening cycle are vital for development of muscular power"

they go on to illustrate a sample protocol for a power workout utilizing just the snatch and clean.

they are focusing on college athletics in this book so their only martial references include only wrestlers, although maybe they mentioned Olympic TKD at one point.



It's actually type IIa and type IIb.

ok, so subtypes....******, more research....thanks :)

[bodhitree]

according to the dudes I'm reading now (Kraemer & Fleck: Optimizing Strength Training) exercises like the Clean and the Snatch are going to develop speed.

"High speed movements incorporating the stretch-shortening cycle are vital for development of muscular power"

they go on to illustrate a sample protocol for a power workout utilizing just the snatch and clean.

they are focusing on college athletics in this book so their only martial references include only wrestlers, although maybe they mentioned Olympic TKD at one point.




ok, so subtypes....******, more research....thanks :)

high intensity, short duration, total body movements....


That's what I've always heard when it comes to gaining speed.....

[BruceSteveRoy]

Unless there is something physically wrong, everyone is capable of quick movement, but some are naturally quicker. Speed is important, but it is not everything. I do not know how you do your forms, but I have seen Mantis a few times. I feel that the practitioner was way too tense. He could have been far more relaxed in his moves. Too jerky.

were you watching northern or southern mantis. as far as i can tell southern mantis forms are supposed to be tense and jerky. kind of like a controlled epileptic attack.

as for northern mantis i have seen a lot of 7* but i can't recall seeing a significant amount of otherversions. but if 7* is indicative of norther n mantis you are right it is fluid and fast. fast being key. which goes back to the OP's original question and subsequent need for speed.

[Oso]

agreed...now just to find the bank to rob so I can afford $100 a week to go to him

[David Jamieson]

keep practicing, keep looking and make sure you do your control sequence so you can test for results.

When it comes to training, one persons results will more often than not , NOT be the same as anothers. VERY IMPORTANT. In other words, you will have to experiment and again, in the world of physical trainings, there are absolutely NO guarantess that anything will work for you or that you will achieve the same results as someone else who used a given program.

If you have different diets for instance, one person will still be a tub of goo even if they work everyday because they eat a lot of crap and the other person will be lean and cut because they eat good stuff.

if you don't combine diet in, then you are getting only a partial effect.

also, it is important to realize that many personal trainers do not take the approach of developing a program for you and instead just have you train like they do or did! This is more often than not the case and no offense to you PT's out there who do design programs for individuals specifically.

This is the majority of personal trainers, who by the way do not have to have any physiological accreditation or any accreditation at all for that matter so you simply never know what kind of knowledge you are getting or if the regimen is gonna work for you.

If you need a motivator, that's a different story. You can find those just by training with people who are superior to you physically and in their skills. You can learn a lot from the bottom of the totem pole. In fact, it's where you can afford to learn the most!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Becca,

You ever do Gymnastics?

"perfect practice makes perfect."

[Becca]

Becca,

You ever do Gymnastics?

"perfect practice makes perfect."
No, but once apon a time, I tried to be a musician. I made it all the way to, but not through, the Armed Forces School of Music. Each student gets a personal tutor. Mine was a very nit-picky Army SSGT who used to say that with the regularity that most people say "hi, how you doin'."

[uki]

take up juggling as a training method. :D

[David Jamieson]

push the gas pedal harder.

uki, seriously, why aren't you over at http://www.jugglebreak.com/ looking for other jugglers instead of trying to convince a forum of kungfu people that juggling will make their 8 million year old martial arts better? lol

[Xiao3 Meng4]

The posts so far have elaborated on the development of force-multiplying speed. Interesting factoid about reactionary speed: there is no statistically significant difference between the reaction speed of elite athletes and average people.

That means there's something else at play when it comes to elite athletes performing better than average people. Well, there're lots of things obviously, but the one that might help w/ "getting faster" is... vision speed. Also known as Field/Game Sense, Perceptual ability, and the Wayne Gretzky effect.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/magazine/15-06/ff_mindgames



Vint knows that the skill he calls "perceptual ability" develops, in part, to help a physical underdog against bigger, stronger players. If you can anticipate a throw, you don't need to be as fast. If you can intercept a pass by predicting its trajectory better than your opponent can, you don't need to be as big. Steve Nash, the point guard for the Phoenix Suns, famously never dunks but passes so brilliantly that he has been voted MVP two years in a row. Gretzky was always the runt of his team: small, slow, cursed by a soft shot, and so skinny one commentator cracked that "he could wear a fur coat on Halloween and go out disguised as a pipe cleaner."
"Growing up, I was always the small guy," Gretzky has said. "I couldn't beat people with my strength. My eyes and my mind have to do most of the work."
As Vint saw it, Gretzky-like field sense was rare not because it was mystical but because no one had bothered to understand it and train for it. Then he discovered Damian Farrow. A scientist at the Australian Institute of Sport, Farrow worked with Olympians and national athletes. But unlike the coaches Vint knew, who tended to focus on physical skills, Farrow had been hired specifically to study and teach perception. If his methods struck Vint as unusual — Farrow once had the women's basketball team watch game clips through 3-D glasses and simulate playing and passing in them — that only made their success more surprising.
"When I found Damian's work, I realized that this is how you could understand a player like Gretzky," Vint says. Farrow had statistics. He had answers. "He was taking a look behind the curtain of this magical thing."

[Lokhopkuen]

I know that speed is not the only important thing and that correct body mechanics, alignment and use of energy could be considered more important, but how do you develop 'fast hands'.

When I run through a form, trying to use decent structure and properly extending the strikes, I look and feel slow. I dont understand how some people are lightning quick. I'm pretty slim, so really there shouldn't be a problem with speed.

Is it possible that people miss subtle parts of movements or only half extend strikes to save time??? Also, what would you consider the best methods for training the speed and 'whipping' type power in mantis.

Cheers people

Craig

Six harmonies;
shoulders and hips,
Elbows with knees,
Hands with feet.

[Yum Cha]

Sometimes being fast is created by being in the right place at the right time with the right move. Its not just hand speed, but movement. Attacking the attack, for example.

just sayin'

[Yum Cha]

push the gas pedal harder.

uki, seriously, why aren't you over at http://www.jugglebreak.com/ looking for other jugglers instead of trying to convince a forum of kungfu people that juggling will make their 8 million year old martial arts better? lol


David, its obvious, with his new baby and all that...


wait for it.....



He's just juggling his time....

:D

[Lokhopkuen]

Sometimes being fast is created by being in the right place at the right time with the right move. Its not just hand speed, but movement. Attacking the attack, for example.

just sayin'

In truth speed is relative to the opponent/ target (you only need to be faster) :D
How you doin' you old B'star'd?

[uki]

Six harmonies;
shoulders and hips,
Elbows with knees,
Hands with feet.add a backside(dragons tail?) and a goats head and you'll have 8...

[Frost]

If we are talking about getting faster, as being more explosive rather than being more efficient in body movement /body mechanics or simply better than the other guy then this is primarily a product of the alactic system and depends on two things: firstly how much force your muscles are able to generate, and how fast they are able to generate it. This depends mostly on the nervous system’s ability to rapidly contract as much muscle as possible at once
secondly it depends on how efficiently the muscles produce the ATP they need to contract. The faster the chemical reactions of the alactic system can take place, and the more of the raw materials the muscles are able to store in them, the more power you’ll be able to generate.


To improve speed/explosiveness you need to train both: First, the nervous system must be developed to contract the maximum amount of muscle as rapidly as possible and the connective tissues must be trained to use elastic energy effectively. This will result in stronger, more explosive muscular contractions. Second, the energy producing properties of the neuromuscular system must be developed to fuel these explosive contractions using the alactic energy system to the maximum of its ability.

[Yum Cha]

In truth speed is relative to the opponent/ target (you only need to be faster) :D
How you doin' you old B'star'd?

Still in Houston, getting an education in Texas Blues evolution caused by an influx of New Orleans Musical refugees...

Last week stateside...

[Yum Cha]

... To improve speed/explosiveness you need to train both: First, the nervous system must be developed to contract the maximum amount of muscle as rapidly as possible and the connective tissues must be trained to use elastic energy effectively. This will result in stronger, more explosive muscular contractions. Second, the energy producing properties of the neuromuscular system must be developed to fuel these explosive contractions using the alactic energy system to the maximum of its ability.

Gee, sounds like you trained Pak Mei, mate....:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

You get faster by increasing the acceleration and by taking "the brakes off".

[Hardwork108]

I know that speed is not the only important thing and that correct body mechanics, alignment and use of energy could be considered more important, but how do you develop 'fast hands'.

When I run through a form, trying to use decent structure and properly extending the strikes, I look and feel slow. I dont understand how some people are lightning quick. I'm pretty slim, so really there shouldn't be a problem with speed.

Is it possible that people miss subtle parts of movements or only half extend strikes to save time??? Also, what would you consider the best methods for training the speed and 'whipping' type power in mantis.

Cheers people

Craig

Hello,

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if any one else has made the points already.

To maximize speed you will need to have an ultra relaxed body (and mind). You will achieve this by the relevant qigong training, which will also in the long term "clear" your mind so that you can use your speed more efficiently.

Ask your sifu about qigong exercises that are incorporated within the curriculum of your style of Mantis.

Also, speed without power is not really desired so again, IMHO, you will need to increase your speed while staying within the methodology of your particular style and its body unity principles.

Of course, having said that, I will say that an ultra relaxed body and mind are concepts that exist within all genuine TCMAs.

HW108

[No_Know]

10,000 reps done wrong will net you a wrong movement. Practice does not make perfect. perfect practice makes perfect.

And since I have't seen this mentioned in 3 pages of advise, you can't gain speed if your muscles are tense. If you are focussing unduely on perfect movement, you might be a little to tense to generate any real speed. So... do the form or combo several times "by the count" to get your posture correct. Then do the form or combo several times slow but flowing to get the movement correct. Then do the form or combo several times at half speed to get the flow correct. Then do the form several times as fast as you can to work on accuracy. Don't work the form for speed and power; if you are working all of the above every time you work the form, speed and power will come in time.


edit: Lee did touch on the tense muscles a bit.

I might have read that a person cannot do 10,000 reps of the same technique wrong (for sword cuts at least)

"Practice doesn't make perfect (only) Perfect practice makes perfect"-shihon~?~ Denis Brown...Liked the show, he seemed like a nice man.

You are not focusing unduely on perfect movemt when doing "10,000 cuts." Usually (my Think) the practitioner will be sloppy and wrong. If you could do iy perfectly you might not need the exercise. It is the notion of the exercise that Gets one to the nearer perfect.

Tense goes away with fatigue. My experience ( I only do the 200's mainly) is that the tense can come but it kind of breaks and there's a difference after the break that is smoother/faster, but then there's more tense I supose pacing or timing or breathing might have a permutative combinative interplay here Blah blah blah.

As speed does come with the method you mention Becca, so does perfection I can think, with the tenthousand cuts method...By the way I am going with 10,000 cuts in one session.

No_Know

[kfson]

I know that speed is not the only important thing...

It may have already been said:
Relax

[bawang]

take steroids

[David Jamieson]

steroids help you heal faster so you can train more and longer.

they won't do much for speed development though...

if you wanna get really fast then you should start tweaking. :p

[bawang]

u lie
stroids r awesom

[David Jamieson]

u lie
stroids r awesom

so's tweaking.
you're bugging man...

[bawang]

wots teaking
:confused:

[Lucas]

crystal meth!

[bawang]

i think cybernetic implants r good 4 boosting speed and hp

[David Jamieson]

i think cybernetic implants r good 4 boosting speed and hp

only if you have +2 armour already.

and you have to be a mage as well or forget it.

[Lucas]

you need all that extra mental fortitude to avoid the cybersickness. otherwise its just another terminator movie.

[David Jamieson]

yes, put extra points into constitution and fortitude when you get the chance.

better these than haste anyway. :D

[bawang]

max your persuation to get more money from ur students and get more gold from crates and fallen enemies

[Lucas]

hahahahahaha

[GeneChing]

Available now. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=877) :cool:

Fundamental Martial Arts Conditioning: Speed By Jonathan D. Chang

[goju]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=M1I1Ymw3cWuRpa1lyS2M&takemi-takayasu-uechi-ryu-barbells

i do weight excerises in my karate like this but with heavier barbells ts improved my speed and power

two for teh price of one!

[David Jamieson]

Available now. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=877) :cool:

Fundamental Martial Arts Conditioning: Speed By Jonathan D. Chang

way to re-rail the thread man.

+1 top web-fu skill checks!

[Frost]

You get faster by increasing the acceleration and by taking "the brakes off".

isn't that what i said?!

[No_Know]

Practice and being creative with Jute twine for resistancea ring smaller than your full extension. do the technique, break the ring

Walk with your ankles in a ring of jute twine so that you could trip ifyou took a more full step and try to take a full step while understanding--improves balance and speed because it strengthens legs and associated muscles one might think.

No_Know

[Frost]

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=M1I1Ymw3cWuRpa1lyS2M&takemi-takayasu-uechi-ryu-barbells

i do weight excerises in my karate like this but with heavier barbells ts improved my speed and power

two for teh price of one!

weighted sports movements are very difficult to do properly and you can end up doing more harm than good as the weights are normally not enough to do any specific good in terms of sped or explosive improvement, and they have a negative impact on technical skill as you end up doing slightly different movements than the unweighted sports movements due to the incorrect resistance paths (as it seemed to be in this video) which makes doing them essentially worthless. For instance the punch throwing with the weight, the weight is pulling the arm down not backwards so the direction of force is too different to make the movement worthwhile, if you had to do this move I would prefer to see it done with bands or cables, at least them the resistance would be in the correct plane of movement

[kfson]

Relax all the opposing muscles of the movement.
Make sure all the body is working the movement fluidly. I've found this can be accomplished by moving very slow... the kinks show up here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

weighted sports movements are very difficult to do properly and you can end up doing more harm than good as the weights are normally not enough to do any specific good in terms of sped or explosive improvement, and they have a negative impact on technical skill as you end up doing slightly different movements than the unweighted sports movements due to the incorrect resistance paths (as it seemed to be in this video) which makes doing them essentially worthless. For instance the punch throwing with the weight, the weight is pulling the arm down not backwards so the direction of force is too different to make the movement worthwhile, if you had to do this move I would prefer to see it done with bands or cables, at least them the resistance would be in the correct plane of movement

The correct has been shuto'ed !

[sanjuro_ronin]

isn't that what i said?!

Bite me muffin boy !

[Frost]

Bite me muffin boy !

don;t start what you can't finish sonny boy......:)

[TenTigers]

weighted sports movements are very difficult to do properly and you can end up doing more harm than good as the weights are normally not enough to do any specific good in terms of sped or explosive improvement, and they have a negative impact on technical skill as you end up doing slightly different movements than the unweighted sports movements due to the incorrect resistance paths (as it seemed to be in this video) which makes doing them essentially worthless. For instance the punch throwing with the weight, the weight is pulling the arm down not backwards so the direction of force is too different to make the movement worthwhile, if you had to do this move I would prefer to see it done with bands or cables, at least them the resistance would be in the correct plane of movement

quick! hide this thread from HW108! If he sees this, he's going to fill up the entire thread with his, "I told ya so" dance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

quick! hide this thread from HW108! If he sees this, he's going to fill up the entire thread with his, "I told ya so" dance.

LMAO !!!

Well, Frost is true, mimicing sprts moves with weights is not advocated by anyone.
Strength training with weights, as you know, is supplementary training.
You build GENERAL strength with weights and SPORT SPECIFIC strength with sport specific exercises made to increase strength over those ranges of motion.
ST 101.

[Frost]

quick! hide this thread from HW108! If he sees this, he's going to fill up the entire thread with his, "I told ya so" dance.

Nope we are safe if he comes on here i'll tell him the best way to develop power and speed is through general training like OL lifts and other fast barbell exercises that do not mimic fighting applications......., that will send him into such a spin from which he will never recover

[Frost]

LMAO !!!

Well, Frost is true, mimicing sprts moves with weights is not advocated by anyone.
Strength training with weights, as you know, is supplementary training.
You build GENERAL strength with weights and SPORT SPECIFIC strength with sport specific exercises made to increase strength over those ranges of motion.
ST 101.

yep general to specific is the way to go and if you know who trys to argue that what i said in anyway backs his arguement up he is a silly troll.... oh god wait he is a silly troll.... he is going to argue that isn't he.... help!

[mooyingmantis]

burst energy + economy of motion + relaxation of antagonistic muscles = speed

Richard

[Xiao3 Meng4]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8493092.stme



Inspired by Hollywood cowboy films, researchers have delved into the science of gun fights.

Scientists discovered that people move faster when reacting to something than when they perform "planned actions".

In an experimental "duel", published in Proceedings of the Royal Society B, they studied the speed of these two types of movement.

As well as unpicking Wild West mythology, scientists hope the findings will shed light on movement disorders.

[GeneChing]

way to re-rail the thread man.

+1 top web-fu skill checks!
You all may think this forum is just a place where you can flame each other to relieve your frustrations for your mediocre kung fu, but really it's a place for us to sell stuff (http://www.martialartsmart.com/index.html). And the more you buy, the better your kung fu will be. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Gene has speed ***** slapped the correct !

[Hardwork108]

Hello,

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if any one else has made the points already.

To maximize speed you will need to have an ultra relaxed body (and mind). You will achieve this by the relevant qigong training, which will also in the long term "clear" your mind so that you can use your speed more efficiently.

Ask your sifu about qigong exercises that are incorporated within the curriculum of your style of Mantis.

Also, speed without power is not really desired so again, IMHO, you will need to increase your speed while staying within the methodology of your particular style and its body unity principles.

Of course, having said that, I will say that an ultra relaxed body and mind are concepts that exist within all genuine TCMAs.

HW108

On top of what I said earlier I would like to add that you it would be a good idea to repeat certain "simple" techniques thousands of times. For example, standing in a rooted stance and throwing say 3000 relaxed Yin punches. Increase the numbers in time and if you are able to, practice daily for a few weeks. You will have those moves totally recorded in your muscle memory. So you would let fly (in high speed) when the "time comes".

Of course, there are other physical benefits to this kind of training as well.....

[goju]

weighted sports movements are very difficult to do properly and you can end up doing more harm than good as the weights are normally not enough to do any specific good in terms of sped or explosive improvement, and they have a negative impact on technical skill as you end up doing slightly different movements than the unweighted sports movements due to the incorrect resistance paths (as it seemed to be in this video) which makes doing them essentially worthless. For instance the punch throwing with the weight, the weight is pulling the arm down not backwards so the direction of force is too different to make the movement worthwhile, if you had to do this move I would prefer to see it done with bands or cables, at least them the resistance would be in the correct plane of movement
they work fine for me if some one does it haphazardly thats their problem bub:D

[Frost]

they work fine for me if some one does it haphazardly thats their problem bub:D

not really it does not matter how carfully you do them the force is in the wrong direction to do any good, and in the video you posted you can see how badly adding weights effects the motor path of the technique you are training.....but if you enjoy it more power to you just understand it won't really help you in getting stronger and faster

[goju]

not really it does not matter how carfully you do them the force is in the wrong direction to do any good, and in the video you posted you can see how badly adding weights effects the motor path of the technique you are training.....but if you enjoy it more power to you just understand it won't really help you in getting stronger and faster


look it works for me and well its increased my power and my speed( among many other things i do) im sure it works for the gentleman in the vid or he wouldnt do them either.

personally id rather do something like this than smack a tire with sledge hammer or swing a ball on a rope over my head or whatever new core training craze is sweeping gyms these days




:p:p

[Frost]

look it works for me and well its increased my power and my speed( among many other things i do) im sure it works for the gentleman in the vid or he wouldnt do them either.

personally id rather do something like this than smack a tire with sledge hammer or swing a ball on a rope over my head or whatever new core training craze is sweeping gyms these days




:p:p

Fair enough who needs to learn from modern methods of strength and power development anyway :D

And who mentioned sledge hammer, or rope swinging anyway we were talking about power generation and geting faster....... and you do know that hammer swinging gereation rotational power and that can be useful in martial arts?

[goju]

Fair enough who needs to learn from modern methods of strength and power development anyway :D

And who mentioned sledge hammer, or rope swinging anyway we were talking about power generation and geting faster....... and you do know that hammer swinging gereation rotational power and that can be useful in martial arts?

i never said modern methods dont work ( im a firm believer in weightlifting ) i just find some of them to be ludicrous and didnt do anything for me besides waste my time

personally i like to find a balance between old chool and new school and i try everything before i determine if its good or not

the karate weight excercises work for me so thats good enough reason for me to use them D

"And who mentioned sledge hammer, or rope swinging anyway "

i was just giving an example of certain newer popular excerises i personally find to be silly

yes and i have other methods i feel work better for building rotational power

and you do realize the sledgehammer/tire excerise came from a rocky movie dont you? LOL

[Frost]

i never said modern methods dont work ( im a firm believer in weightlifting ) i just find some of them to be ludicrous and didnt do anything for me besides waste my time

personally i like to find a balance between old chool and new school and i try everything before i determine if its good or not

the karate weight excercises work for me so thats good enough reason for me to use them D

"And who mentioned sledge hammer, or rope swinging anyway "

i was just giving an example of certain newer popular excerises i personally find to be silly

yes and i have other methods i feel work better for building rotational power

and you do realize the sledgehammer/tire excerise came from a rocky movie dont you? LOL
Whether you personally find something to be silly is neither here nor there, have you atcually traied the methods, do you know what they are even used for?

Please the sledgehammer stuff has been used by boxers for decades, before that they split wood with axes to train the same rotational power...... you really should read more about strength and conditioning before making yourself look silly

[goju]

Whether you personally find something to be silly is neither here nor there, have you atcually traied the methods, do you know what they are even used for?

did you not just read my post man lol i said i try it out if it doesnt work i dont use it or blindly follow it just because some one tells me too


Please the sledgehammer stuff has been used by boxers for decades, before that they split wood with axes to train the same rotational power...... you really should read more about strength and conditioning before making yourself look silly


uh huh:rolleyes::p

[Frost]

did you not just read my post man lol i said i try it out if it doesnt work i dont use it or blindly follow it just because some one tells me too


you never said you tried it just that its in your opinion silly

uh huh:rolleyes::p

nice come back guess what, you were wrong sledgehammers and axes have been used by boxers for years... get over it ok :D

[goju]

nice come back guess what, you were wrong sledgehammers and axes have been used by boxers for years... get over it ok :D

oh no i believe you:D

i also believe its completely logical to slam a stick with metal on the end of it on a rubber object

it just can bounce back and smack you in the mouth ask jens pulver:D:p

[Frost]

oh no i believe you:D

i also believe its completely logical to slam a stick with metal on the end of it on a rubber object

it just can bounce back and smack you in the mouth ask jens pulver:D:p

again do some research before making yourself look like an ass, dealing with the recoile is one of the benefits of the training


From Ross Enamait former pro boxer and now trainer


Sledgehammer Training
By Ross Enamait - Published in 2006
Includes Video Demonstration Below

Also, check out Part II (from 2008)

The sledgehammer has been a conditioning tool amongst fighters since the inception of combat sports. It is certainly not a new tool in the arsenal of combat athletes. It is however an inexpensive and excellent conditioning device. Unfortunately, the reemergence of sledgehammer training in the modern era has caused some confusion regarding this simple, yet effective training tool. This article will clarify the confusion, while also offering some brief workouts that will spice up your conditioning routine.

For starters, swinging a sledgehammer offers numerous benefits. A condensed list includes:
• Improve work capacity
• Develop core strength
• Enhance grip and forearm strength
I highly recommend the sledgehammer for all combat athletes. As a young fighter, I regularly used both an ax and sledgehammer and can testify firsthand to the results. Sledgehammer training will undoubtedly improve your ability to maintain explosive power, round after round.
Purchasing A Sledgehammer

former heavyweight Earnie Shavers was a firm believer in sledgehammer and axe training you can see pictures of him with an axe if you google him ....but what did he know, he only faught Ali and was honored by the International Boxing Association as Puncher of the Century.

[goju]

again do some research before making yourself look like an ass, dealing with the recoile is one of the benefits of the training


From Ross Enamait former pro boxer and now trainer



former heavyweight Earnie Shavers was a firm believer in sledgehammer and axe training you can see pictures of him with an axe if you google him ....but what did he know, he only faught Ali and was honored by the International Boxing Association as Puncher of the Century.

i noticed you completely avoided me noting thats its not the smartest thing to slap an metal object agaisnt something that will bounce it back right at you:D

[Frost]

i noticed you completely avoided me noting thats its not the smartest thing to slap an metal object agaisnt something that will bounce it back right at you:D

read my response i said dealing with the recoile of the hammer is one of the important things about slegdehammer trianing:rolleyes:

and i notice how you have not admitted you were wrong when you said it was a new invention from the rocky movies...........:rolleyes:

[goju]

read my response i said dealing with the recoile of the hammer is one of the important things about slegdehammer trianing:rolleyes:

and i notice how you have not admitted you were wrong when you said it was a new invention from the rocky movies...........:rolleyes:

showing an example of one boxer who fought a couple decades ago does not prove this excercise was used widely my friend:p

[Frost]

showing an example of one boxer who fought a couple decades ago does not prove this excercise was used widely my friend:p

there were two quotes, Ross also used it when he faught pro, or did you not read that one? Oh and george forman was known for chopping wood as part of his training.

Havana’s oldest boxing gym The Rafael Trejo Gymnasio is famed for using the slegdehammer and tyre with all their guys .... russian boxers also used sledgehammer (thats where Fedor gets it from)

need i go on or are you finally going to admit you are wrong when you said it was not used until the rocky movies and that you know squat about strength and conditioning?

[goju]

there were two quotes, Ross also used it when he faught pro, or did you not read that one? Oh and george forman was known for chopping wood as part of his training.

Havana’s oldest boxing gym The Rafael Trejo Gymnasio is famed for using the slegdehammer and tyre with all their guys .... russian boxers also used sledgehammer (thats where Fedor gets it from)

need i go on or are you finally going to admit you are wrong when you said it was not used until the rocky movies and that you know squat about strength and conditioning?

yet again this does not prove any where this was a widely used old style boxing work out

shavers may or may not be responsible for starting it and those silly rocky movies made it even more popular

yes and i recall frank mir saying sledge hammer training was stupid before his second fight with brock


are we suposed to rattle off names back and forth of who does and does not like it now?

[Frost]

yet again this does not prove any where this was a widely used old style boxing work out

shavers may or may not be responsible for starting it and those silly rocky movies made it even more popular

yes and i recall frank mir saying sledge hammer training was stupid before his second fight with brock


are we suposed to rattle off names back and forth of who does and does not like it now?

jesus you really are stupid or a troll, you said it was a silly fad, i said it was not it was a proven S and C method, you said no it was not it was the rocky movies that started it

I then provided proof that it has been used years before by fighters (some of them contenders) and now you change the arguement to saying two fighters said it was silly.

Your original arguement was it was a new fad in the community brought about by the rocky movies, this has been proven wrong just accept it:rolleyes:

[goju]

jesus you really are stupid or a troll, you said it was a silly fad, i said it was not it was a proven S and C method, you said no it was not it was the rocky movies that started it

I then provided proof that it has been used years before by fighters (some of them contenders) and now you change the arguement to saying two fighters said it was silly.

Your original arguement was it was a new fad in the community brought about by the rocky movies, this has been proven wrong just accept it:rolleyes:

good lord just like your catch argument you seem to enjoy dicussions that goaround in circles

no you provided proof that ONE GUY used it a while back and then another guy who came later if this is some how supposed to prove sledge trainingw as s steeped in old school boxing then good luck with that bud

"Your original arguement was it was a new fad in the community brought about by the rocky movies, "

i havent changed my opinion

"the reemergence of sledgehammer training in the modern era has caused some confusion regarding this simple, yet effective training tool. This article will clarify the confusion, while also offering some brief workouts that will spice up your conditioning routine."

http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/sledge.html


reemergence you see that fancy word? but im sure people stumbled upon shavers old fights and werent influenced by an outrageously popular movie

[bawang]

what aa stupid karate troll
go do sanchin sum mor lol

[goju]

What a lousy attempt at being a poor mans version of uki :p ^

nah ill stick to basic realistic weight excerises like the squat and dead lift thank you

[sanjuro_ronin]

i never said modern methods dont work ( im a firm believer in weightlifting ) i just find some of them to be ludicrous and didnt do anything for me besides waste my time

personally i like to find a balance between old chool and new school and i try everything before i determine if its good or not

the karate weight excercises work for me so thats good enough reason for me to use them D

"And who mentioned sledge hammer, or rope swinging anyway "

i was just giving an example of certain newer popular excerises i personally find to be silly

yes and i have other methods i feel work better for building rotational power

and you do realize the sledgehammer/tire excerise came from a rocky movie dont you? LOL

In traditional Goju they used a "sledge hammer" too, it was called a chi' shi stone, remember?
Not only for the rotation but the swing of it.
The using of the tire just adds another element to the exercise that's all.
Rope and chain swinging is old ST too, nothing new about it.
Samething with grabbing, throwing and carrying sand bags, all that stuff was used in TMA ages ago.

[David Jamieson]

a grade 7 student shouldn't speak about the merits of the curriculum for grade 10.

analogously that is. :-)

[goju]

In traditional Goju they used a "sledge hammer" too, it was called a chi' shi stone, remember?
Not only for the rotation but the swing of it.
The using of the tire just adds another element to the exercise that's all.
Rope and chain swinging is old ST too, nothing new about it.
Samething with grabbing, throwing and carrying sand bags, all that stuff was used in TMA ages ago.

actually yes i do i have a home made chisi:D and it works well and i prefer it over the tire because you can do more with it and its safer

[sanjuro_ronin]

actually yes i do i have a home made chisi:D and it works well and i prefer it over the tire because you can do more with it and its safer

The tire adds a different element to the training, that's all.

[Frost]

The tire adds a different element to the training, that's all.

stop making sense it will do you no good

[goju]

stop making sense it will do you no good

i didnt say it didn't add a different element
obviously swing something in the air and swinging it down on an object is different

[Frost]

i didnt say it didn't add a different element
obviously swing something in the air and swinging it down on an object is different

nope you said it was new, worthless and only around because of the rocky film, all things pointed out to you as wrong yet you are still argueing.

lets be productive then what in your opinion is worthless about using a sledge hammer, is it useless for conditioning the areobic system, useless for alactic power or capacity sessions. Terrible for improving lactic power? what exactly is bad about it?

[TenTigers]

well, one good thing came out of this cat fight. That Ross site is awesome.
There is even an article on juggling to improve performance. I was afraid to open it and find pics of Uki there.
(shhhh! don't mention this site to him, or he'll NEVER shut up!)

[Frost]

Ross's stuff is very good, check out 8weeksout.com as well, they train mainly mma guys but its good stuff.

[goju]

nope you said it was new, worthless and only around because of the rocky film, all things pointed out to you as wrong yet you are still argueing.

lets be productive then what in your opinion is worthless about using a sledge hammer, is it useless for conditioning the areobic system, useless for alactic power or capacity sessions. Terrible for improving lactic power? what exactly is bad about it?

uh no we never discussed the chisi vs sledge hammer training at all

you can also do that with simple wieghts:D

if i want to work my back i can do deadlifts, lat pull downs, chin ups(i like negatives personally) rows etc etc

if i want to work my core then back excercises, crunches, and other things

i if want to improve grip i can get that from lifting weights, i can use the gripping jars i can use the eagle claw catcher martial art mart sells( plugged the store for ya gene!) i can use sand bags

if i want to build cardio while i lift i can not rest between sets

i can also do high reps

or i can use the chisi it takes up a small amount of room, i can manipulate it in many different ways and i dont have to worry about smacking myself with it

[goju]

There is even an article on juggling to improve performance. I was afraid to open it and find pics of Uki there.
(shhhh! don't mention this site to him, or he'll NEVER shut up!)
lol there is all those guys who were making fun of uki will keep quiet now

[bawang]

lol juggling rofl

[Dragonzbane76]

clowns are funny. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

if i want to work my back i can do deadlifts, lat pull downs, chin ups(i like negatives personally) rows etc etc


Careful with negatives, they CAN be detrimental to speed because they develop the antogonistic muscles in a way that makes you "put on the brakes" a bit too much, like isometrics do too.

[goju]

Careful with negatives, they CAN be detrimental to speed because they develop the antogonistic muscles in a way that makes you "put on the brakes" a bit too much, like isometrics do too.

oh yeah i know i dont do them regularly jsut every couple of weeks here and there i get in the mood for chin ups and i do them along with regular chins

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh yeah i know i dont do them regularly jsut every couple of weeks here and there i get in the mood for chin ups and i do them along with regular chins

Good boy.
:D

[goju]

thats Mr. O'Casey to you.:D