Pulling Back Punches

[couch]

I would love to discuss two different punching mechanics and if they are present in your WC.

For the most part, and what I have trained in Wing Chun in regards to how I punch is that I tend to leave the arm extended after a punch has been thrown. If the WC practitioner is punching a mitt, you see that they remain in contact with the mitt after the punch has been thrown. You can see this in Chi Sau a lot where the arms want to have their space and people leave them 'out in the game.'

In a boxing environment, however, you never see anyone leave their arms extended. They are always brought back to protect the chin and flank.

What advantages / disadvantages do we see here? If you were to throw just one vertical punch, would it be brought back for protection or not? Maybe one 'vertical jab' wouldn't be thrown on its own for you?

I've just been playing with this idea. I think that leaving the arm out there helps with the sensitivity part, but I worry about not bringing it back to protect my glass jaw!

Thoughts?

[SAAMAG]

I think that perhaps one of the reasons why chunner's may leave the arm out is because that's how most chunner's get their inputs--by feel.

They expect the punch to hit it's mark, if it is intercepted, that interception becomes the catalyst for another movement. It's the second trigger so to speak. If the punch is left out (which I HIGHLY recommend not doing) perhaps is it because the person "expects" the person to react just afterwards and they maybe expect that to be the next trigger.

Not sure...leaving an arm out is bad joo joo either way.

[KPM]

:)Hey Kenton!

For the most part, and what I have trained in Wing Chun in regards to how I punch is that I tend to leave the arm extended after a punch has been thrown. If the WC practitioner is punching a mitt, you see that they remain in contact with the mitt after the punch has been thrown. You can see this in Chi Sau a lot where the arms want to have their space and people leave them 'out in the game.'

---I don't leave my arms out there. But I think you are right that it may be a "residual" effect of Chi Sao training.



In a boxing environment, however, you never see anyone leave their arms extended. They are always brought back to protect the chin and flank.

---And brought back because the other punch is already going out! One out, one in....yin & yang!



What advantages / disadvantages do we see here? If you were to throw just one vertical punch, would it be brought back for protection or not? Maybe one 'vertical jab' wouldn't be thrown on its own for you?

---If I threw one punch I would retract it not only for protection, but because the proper biomechanics for good power release is to "snap" at the end and then relax. The relaxation phase produces better penetration of the target followed by a natural retraction. Typically though, I wouldn't be throwing just one punch. Like the boxer, I will be throwing combinations of punches until the opponent is either on the ground, out of reach, or has put up an obstruction. The only time I wouldn't retract a punch is when it meets an obstruction that has to be dealt with. That's when Chi Sao skills kick in. No bridge...just punch! Encounter an obstruction...make the bridge and cross it!



I've just been playing with this idea. I think that leaving the arm out there helps with the sensitivity part, but I worry about not bringing it back to protect my glass jaw!

---You don't need sensitivity unless you encounter an obstruction. When training on the focus pads, train to generate and release optimal power. Stiffening the arm to leave it against the mitt doesn't do that. Save the sensitivity training for Chi Sao. At least that's my opinion, for what its worth. :)

[couch]

It also might have to do with ranges as well. Really letting that chain punch extend, thinking it is designed for a longer range than perhaps designed (going back to that other thread on this topic b/w Vankuen and T).

[SAAMAG]

That's a thought as well. Could be how someone is using the punch. I personally think that if something works...great! If it doesn't than it's time to adapt. Some people can pull off lin wan kuen from far away, some can't. You just have to know when you need more practice to make something work or when it's time to call it quits and move on.

[Liddel]

Extending is one thing and i think may come naturally espesially when you are tired/gassed, leaving an arm out after it surved its purpose is another thing all together IME.

I heavily rely on the elbow for several reasons the two most obvious being structure and power in arm actions, both in defence and attack.

Generally speaking -
In defence it helps create my personal space.
In attack it helps issue force. (that snap previously mentioned)

So with this in mind for my VT at least, leaving an arm extended is a no no.

In a striking sence it leaves me open to retalitory strikes and in a clinch (close range) sence it leaves me open to being grabbed and controlled.
loosing the initiative.

The same applies on the ground, even when im in someones guard and i have my forearm in thier throat and or are tweaking the face my elbow has a bend however small... you dont want to extend or youll have it broken.
and on your back even more dangerous.

So to me..... in all senarios i want to avoid it big time.

DREW

[Edmund]

What do we mean by extended and retracted though?
Retracted right up against your chin? Fully locked out elbow extension?

This ain't boxing.

[SAAMAG]

I was say that fully extended for wing chun is elbow locked. Full retracted is back to the man sao/wu sao setup.

[Edmund]

I was say that fully extended for wing chun is elbow locked. Full retracted is back to the man sao/wu sao setup.

So you don't fully extend your arm when you do a man sau?

[Edmund]

The same applies on the ground, even when im in someones guard and i have my forearm in thier throat and or are tweaking the face my elbow has a bend however small... you dont want to extend or youll have it broken.


Dude. You're fully vulnerable to getting armlocked whether you have a small bend or not.

Jujigatame doesn't need your arm to be straight. It can be put on when it's really bent (esp. when you're putting your forearm on someone's throat!). Once that happens, by the time it's anywhere close to straight, it's getting pretty late to do anything about it.

Sorry about getting off topic guys!

[Liddel]

Sorry about getting off topic guys!

No no i think this is valid..... :) its about timing.


Dude. You're fully vulnerable to getting armlocked whether you have a small bend or not.

Nothings certain but I get you.....

Although IME i would say your MORE vunerable :rolleyes:

My point is about timing with regard to having my elbow straight or retaining an angle. Standing up or on the ground.

If my arms already straight i have no time to react. If its bent however small or large that buys me time...what i do with that time depends on my ability :cool:

Just like when im trading punches, im MORE vunerable to getting KO'd with an arm extended not protecting my body than when its in Bi Jong acting as another defencive gate...or head guard

Why give away more advantage than your forced to ?

VT = economic to me.

DREW

[Edmund]

If my arms already straight i have no time to react. If its bent however small or large that buys me time...what i do with that time depends on my ability :cool:



What I meant previously is that your "time" to defend the armlock is not governed much by the bend in your arm. It's your whole position that's the major factor.



Anyway, Pulling Back Punches:
Difficult topic. Honestly holding your arm straight after a punch is plain stupid so it's good advice to bend it BUT you're vulnerable just pulling back your punch also. You want to be able to change your movements as the situation dictates. You might land your punch and he leans back from the impact: You could stiff arm him and kick his legs.

[k gledhill]

I would love to discuss two different punching mechanics and if they are present in your WC.

For the most part, and what I have trained in Wing Chun in regards to how I punch is that I tend to leave the arm extended after a punch has been thrown. If the WC practitioner is punching a mitt, you see that they remain in contact with the mitt after the punch has been thrown. You can see this in Chi Sau a lot where the arms want to have their space and people leave them 'out in the game.'

In a boxing environment, however, you never see anyone leave their arms extended. They are always brought back to protect the chin and flank.

What advantages / disadvantages do we see here? If you were to throw just one vertical punch, would it be brought back for protection or not? Maybe one 'vertical jab' wouldn't be thrown on its own for you?

I've just been playing with this idea. I think that leaving the arm out there helps with the sensitivity part, but I worry about not bringing it back to protect my glass jaw!

Thoughts?

In training the SLT the Tan , Jum are the retracted positions for punches using either line . Ergo we retract back to a fresh striking position like fook sao . Fook sao trained as a 'chi-sao' event wont give you this thinking because your doing forward pressure 'wristing' thinking. The fooksao is our way of 'Elbow position' recovery back to the point of EITHER TAN OR JUM , NEUTRAL but retracted back to its 'holding position', not sticking to an arm thats raising it up et... but bringing back the elbow to take advantage of over extended arms :D
In Dan chi-sao when we strike over the arm for jum development and bong use , after the jumming punch has extended and been defelected sideways , its obvious we cant leave our arm in this vulnerable position so we rtract the elbow back down while using the bong of the partner as a 'marker' not a resting spot for energy coming out the wrist.
By developing this at an early stage one always recovers at speed quickly to take a line offered by simply 'holding' our own without force or attempts to stick or follow and arm leading redundantly applied energy to stick and feel.
The concept of swapping the lead for the rear applies in all things .
The extended arm may come back doing a jut[jerking] action as it x'es over a punch arm, as asimilar recovery of elbow positions, from chi-sao development of this thinking , not sticking.
All actions require we recover the elbow to work our idea in a fight.
SLT is this isolation time for elbow angles to 'spend time' inwards and using the introduction of tan, fook, jum, vu etc... in a repetitive cycle along the line.
Dan chi sao for individual training of elbow / pec /shoulder girdle muscle group contractions to train the arm to hold its defensive line. This pectoralis use of elbow position /alignment in strikes means we dont offer energy out at the limb of the arm to 'seek a platform to rest' only to strike with the hand with a loose wrist, loose bicep/tricep ...fook teaches recovery to an "I dont know what energy I need to hold what side of my punching arms line yet " floating / neutral elbow ..to much forwards pressure or a raised elbow lead to bad arm control when faced with an obstruction, the tendency of chi-saoers is to touch the others arm as a 'bridge' for contact so if I present an arm that they 'think' is requiring them to contact, by suddenly retracting the intended resting point of their energy focus they are moving in arcs and not striking in . coaching in chi-sao involves offering arms in strike line/angles, and suddenly removing them just to see if the focus of the attack is to go through my arm using angles and only stop if they have to..after all they havent made contact yet and shouldn't seek it.
It usually takes 3-4 attempts to get a guy 2-3 feet away to simply hit you and not fight the arm ...
1 punch tries to stick to my arm no punch focus
2 tries to punch but arm raises up ontop of my extended arm...no alignmnet control using elbow training
3 strike once again goes to push down arm AND hit , no force
4 focused mind strikes as it deflects....
sometimes it takes more tries , but it becomes obvious that the training of chi-sao becomes anything but trying to feel my arm :D

If I add sudden arm removal from a simple strike path it becomes evident they are anticipating making arm contact not 'just hitting' me and allowing the results to lead the next action...

The best way to describe this is when I taught guys to shoot handguns in the UK , I would put a blank round [snap cap] into a 38/357 revolver barrel, spin it like 'russian roulette' and hand the gun to learner shooter, they would shoot at the target 5 ft away while learning to NOT anticipate the bang [arm contact] and flinch off target, it was seen when they shot the 'blank' and no bang went off , and yet they moved the barrel down almost a foot missing the target alignment completely ...simply an alignment tool. Like shooting we don't use refined actions like using sights at close range , we point and shoot , so alignment is crucial to simply hit a target 4 ft away from you with an isosceles grip...similar triangulation to VT.
WSL used to get the 'idea ' across....offer blanks in the form of extended arms that suddenly disappeared from the intended contact search.
sounds easy :D
This leads to the guy not stopping to 'fight' the arm , and punch through the arm and allow 'whatever' to simply happen and fill the next strike from vu-sao not enter into a clinch if it can be avoided .Because the focus is to strike 'past' the arms using available 'angles' in the 'space we move the strikes and recovery lines along from training. If we adopt a feel touchy because an arm happens to be before us ...we go grab n clinch lop and waste time, become less efficient.

Imagine punching and the guy lifts his arm under yours and lifts your arm extended....do you react without thinking to bring it back ? that should be part of fighting training in close quarters to me.

Many good situations occur before us when we simply allow the opponents movement to open lines to us, because we trained to hold our arm space through training and not rely on another's arm contact for functional delivery of 'chi-sao' world techniques...we never have to make arm contact , rather strike through the holes in the defense by arm angles trained to recover and hold 'space' not feel things ..or chase them.

[t_niehoff]

I would love to discuss two different punching mechanics and if they are present in your WC.

For the most part, and what I have trained in Wing Chun in regards to how I punch is that I tend to leave the arm extended after a punch has been thrown. If the WC practitioner is punching a mitt, you see that they remain in contact with the mitt after the punch has been thrown. You can see this in Chi Sau a lot where the arms want to have their space and people leave them 'out in the game.'

In a boxing environment, however, you never see anyone leave their arms extended. They are always brought back to protect the chin and flank.

What advantages / disadvantages do we see here? If you were to throw just one vertical punch, would it be brought back for protection or not? Maybe one 'vertical jab' wouldn't be thrown on its own for you?

I've just been playing with this idea. I think that leaving the arm out there helps with the sensitivity part, but I worry about not bringing it back to protect my glass jaw!

Thoughts?

What are YOU trying to do with your punch?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Naturally, when you hit something, it hits you back, you "rebound" off of your target.
You don't really need to "draw" your hand back, you just have to NOT let it stay out there.
To leave it out there is rather "unnatural".
I have issues with people that try to "whiplash" or "snap" the fist back in a consious effort, these people, when contact is made, tend to lack power because of their lack of penetrating depth of "follow through", they tend to be, in practical terms, arm punchers.
Its all fine to snap these things in the air, but when you are actually hitting with full force and full speed, and having to penetrate with their strikes ( compression), things typical get "lost".

[Grilo]

My thoughts - I think a lot of where your hands end up is based on your experience and previous training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClORguy66iA&feature=related
The fellow is this clip leaves his hand out similar to what Couch is talking about.

If you trained Karate for a long time I am sure that instinct is to draw your hands to chamber like they do. If you trained boxing you 'put up your dukes' as they do. I have limited TMA experience, I mostly have trained Capoeira, some BJJ, some Muay Thai. My hands do what is needed rather than go to a position set in my muscle memory.

As for my arms in Wing Chun I am not sure where they will end up as I am a beginner and have no habits yet. But with the thought of where my arms would go after a strike. Depends on if we are talking training or actual fight. This maxim stands out in my head 'Retain what comes in, send off what retreats. Rush in on loss of hand contact.' If I throw a punch and it connects the arm should be coming back under the next punch to Wu Sau.

just my thoughts.

Grilo.

[SAAMAG]

So you don't fully extend your arm when you do a man sau?

Nope....not relative to having the elbow locked anyway. That's the EBMAS and LT guys that do that...and perhaps the TWC too sometimes from what I've seen?

And just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here....you're talking about man sao the static lead hand in the guard position? Or are you talking about man sao, the literal action of entering into an attack through manipulation of the opponent's guard?

[couch]

Nope....not relative to having the elbow locked anyway. That's the EBMAS and LT guys that do that...and perhaps the TWC too sometimes from what I've seen?

And just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here....you're talking about man sao the static lead hand in the guard position? Or are you talking about man sao, the literal action of entering into an attack through manipulation of the opponent's guard?

And don't forget the Man Sau in the BJ! :cool:

I see in a lot of demo vids, people placing their Man Sau / Jong Sau waaaayyy out there instead of keeping it in a SLT (like what Kevin Gledhill was talking about) position where the elbow is close to the flank.

[SAAMAG]

Oops...yep. That one too. Which is Ed referring to we wonder...

[couch]

What are YOU trying to do with your punch?

Great question. The simple answer: hit!

The reason I brought this up is because of the nature of the WC drills I do and the nature of me hitting a heavy bag.

When I perform the WC drills (such as punching in two's), the arm in left to teach sensitivity. Also, in previous WC schools, I was always taught to leave the arm in contact with the punching mitt after I've punched. But I personally like to keep my hands close to my chin and body.

When I'm working the HB, I always move more naturally than in a WC drill (so it should be). I keep the hands by the chin and they come back there no matter the punch going out.

So I just wanted to get some feedback on the melding of these methods.

What are your thoughts, T?

Best,
Kenton

[t_niehoff]

Great question. The simple answer: hit!

The reason I brought this up is because of the nature of the WC drills I do and the nature of me hitting a heavy bag.

When I perform the WC drills (such as punching in two's), the arm in left to teach sensitivity. Also, in previous WC schools, I was always taught to leave the arm in contact with the punching mitt after I've punched. But I personally like to keep my hands close to my chin and body.

When I'm working the HB, I always move more naturally than in a WC drill (so it should be). I keep the hands by the chin and they come back there no matter the punch going out.

So I just wanted to get some feedback on the melding of these methods.

What are your thoughts, T?

Best,
Kenton

For me, WCK is an attached fighting method (unlike boxing). So we are always either attached or trying to become attached to our opponent (clinch). Only though attachment can we control our opponent.

There is a kuit that says "fist goes out does not return." We use stikes to set up control and control to set up strikes. Control while striking. If you hit and retract, you disengage, you lose your attachment. I don't mean that you will remain in the same position or that your hand will retain a fist shape, just that you hit not just to strike the opponent but to also get a handle for control.

There is also a kuit that says "no random hitting." You don't just hit what's open, you hit to further your strategic approach.

[Liddel]

Flying elbow is a consideration.... most people think of this in terms of being wide but for me it also applies to the elbow being to far away (foward) also.

I like Ts point about being in contact and retaining that....

When i think of sparring situations where a punch of mine is recieved by my partner and we close into clinch range, generally i dont take my action back i leave it out and the body follows in as my punch changes to a controlling action like bong for instance.

If my body doesnt follow up with outstetched action its vunerable to being controlled because of a lack of support -from the elbow and the horse.

My VT actions rely to much on the elbow for me to be absent minded enough to leave it straight and unsupported.


I don't mean that you will remain in the same position or that your hand will retain a fist shape, just that you hit not just to strike the opponent but to also get a handle for control.

Great point.

DREW

[Tom Kagan]

I am by no means implying that it doesn't happen or that there are no circumstances where you should, but if you believe leaving your arm extended the majority of the time is the proper methodology of a punch in Ving Tsun, then you do not understand the concept of recovery.

[Matrix]

There is a kuit that says "fist goes out does not return." We use stikes to set up control and control to set up strikes. Control while striking. If you hit and retract, you disengage, you lose your attachment. I don't mean that you will remain in the same position or that your hand will retain a fist shape, just that you hit not just to strike the opponent but to also get a handle for control.

There is also a kuit that says "no random hitting." You don't just hit what's open, you hit to further your strategic approach.You're sounding like a WC guy. What have you done with Terrence? ;)

I agree with what you're saying here. And your strategic approach to the punch is spot on, IMO. If you go for "the hit" you may have missed the point. You can take control with the punch and create the opportunity to hit cleanly and with power. Random hits are a shot gun approach - hoping that quantity will make up for lack of quality.

Fully extending the punch when you are out of range throws away your ability to control the center, and is a waste of effort. However, there are times when full extension is quite useful.

Bill

[Edmund]

And just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here....you're talking about man sao the static lead hand in the guard position?


Yep. You were referring to your man sao/wu sao setup as the fully retracted position. I just wanted to understand how bent your lead hand was.



Or are you talking about man sao, the literal action of entering into an attack through manipulation of the opponent's guard?

Nope!

[SAAMAG]

Yep. Lead elbow is about 2-3 inches from body. Like in SLT tan sao...but with the lead hand vertical.

[Edmund]

Yep. Lead elbow is about 2-3 inches from body. Like in SLT tan sao...but with the lead hand vertical.

You know you raised a really good point accidentally. The Man/Wu concept is probably where you do want to extend your man sao fully because it isn't about fixed positions.

The wu sao is guarding you by holding the opponent's dominant hand. The Man sao is attacking with power. It has to attack (hence extend) properly towards your target so that the opponent will be forced to try defend it with their other hand rather than strike.

Once that man sao attack is finished though, it has no power (very little range of motion) to threaten the opponent. It can grab the defending hand though and change to become a wu sao.

[SAAMAG]

I am merely talking about the static position of the hands when there is no action...but I see your point in regards to the action of asking.

[bennyvt]

When we are learning to punch we completly extend and lock the elbow to get full impact but then the punch is retracted back to a fist and thumb away from the body. Eventually the other hand is brought forward so that it replaces the other. Although there are moves that can deal with blocking or attacking from full extension these are not the preferable techniques. Normally if the punch is on top of your oppents ( jum or fuk sao etc) then the act of bringing the arm but with the elbow is used to clear the way for the next punch.

[Liddel]

The only action ive been taught to use with the elbow locked...is Fut Sao (one of).

The last action of the BJ form. (i have a step foward with the action, some do not)

One should note though that at least for me the action is using the shoulder and footwork to regain the center and elbow, because the elbow is locked or pulled straight by your opponent.

Its not done on purpose.....

So for me, my VT has an action with a straight elbow but it is done by the opponent and this teaches the user that a straight elbow can happen but its not something you want to do by yourself and if you do find it done to you, VT Fut Sao teaches you how to recover.

DREW

[Mr Punch]

In a boxing environment, however, you never see anyone leave their arms extended. They are always brought back to protect the chin and flank...
I've just been playing with this idea. I think that leaving the arm out there helps with the sensitivity part, but I worry about not bringing it back to protect my glass jaw!Which position are you bringing it back to? Do you think a bare hand in a boxing position is going to stop someone hitting your head?

The wing chun guard is naturally more extended than a boxing guard because we don't wear boxing gloves. So, it's comparable to grappling styles, esp old Cumberland/Lancashire styles which evolved into catch, and old bare knuckle boxing which allowed throws and grabs to some extent anyway. The whole point about the sensitivity is allied to that too. Plus, the ninety degree (slightly + ?) angle is inherently strong (search for Andrew S's post linking to a study) so there's a reason we have that position.

Of course you don't want to leave the arm out doing nothing!


Naturally, when you hit something, it hits you back, you "rebound" off of your target.
You don't really need to "draw" your hand back, you just have to NOT let it stay out there.
To leave it out there is rather "unnatural".
I have issues with people that try to "whiplash" or "snap" the fist back in a consious effort, these people, when contact is made, tend to lack power because of their lack of penetrating depth of "follow through", they tend to be, in practical terms, arm punchers.
Its all fine to snap these things in the air, but when you are actually hitting with full force and full speed, and having to penetrate with their strikes ( compression), things typical get "lost".Dunno. When I was boxing I was taught to withdraw the hand as fast as it went out, but that soon became a reflex so whether you can say it was 'consciously' is a moot point.

Also karateka are taught to focus on bringing the hand back and some of them punch hard enough.

But agreed, the flex after your punch where the split-second tension leaves your arm and crooks your elbow ready for the next short punch can be trained as a reflex from the rebound.

Following on from what Terrence said too, I think the retaining contact is important, and Drew's point about range is spot on too. Many chunners fire off punches from too far: dan chi sao is practised out of range, chi sao gets a little exuberant and too fast... to me the really effective chun range is with the opponent between your man sao and tan sao range. Of course, what this may vary! :D

This is why with any punch, with any art, follow up footwork is all important. Over extension and leaving your arms out is a symptom of moving without the rest of your body, which partly comes from over-reliance on lazy chi sao (you know, we all do it, where you hit someone, they step back and you let them go instead of following up... or you follow up with arm-only chain punches instead of linking a la CK and following up putting your whole body into the next punch from a more assured position) and not practising on enough live, dodging, moving targets.

Just a few ideas.

[tjwingchun]

I teach leaving the punch extended, it is my view that the time it takes to transfer all the component energies in a punch takes a significant number of milliseconds, to develop a "penetrating punch" rather than a "***** slap" you must be in contact with your opponent for these energies to have any effect.

The other concept I teach is that immediately after the punch has offloaded all its energy the next move the hand makes will depend upon the situation that is faced, whether it is drawn back to a Wu Sau, stays out to control the body/head, changes to a pinning technique, how can I make a decision until the situation has unfolded?

The snapping back of a punch in my mind has too many negatives, I understand bringing the hand back into a defensive position, but I am with Dempsey who noted the lack of "power jabs", full force punches to disrupt and hurt an opponent rather than the light taps for distancing from what he termed as "fancy Dan fighters".

So in short my opinion is that the pulling back of a punch is separate from the punch itself and should be understood independantly, in reality the time it is extended is negligible and not obvious but the importance in delivering maximum power is vital.

[bennyvt]

When I was learning boxing we were taught to drive into the bag. I watched a show about the olympics and they had a bag that tested how long your hand is against the bag they said that because it is won on how many lunches you land not how hard they only really touch the bag and pull the hand back.
Without the elbow locking you loss a majority of the power of the punch. The optimal range for the punch is the elbow a fist and thumb away from the body, thats why we punch the bag at that distance. But this is not always available and without the elbow locking the wrist would not tilt slightly upward.
There are moves that are used at full extension, the punch in biu jee with the wrist to the side. The movement in SLT after the finger strike to neck in second section (I call it the wax on wax off moves), the neck pull in the dummy. This is not all of them but just an example as that some times you arm will be completly extened.
Major point is that it should be retracted as soon as possible