Bait and switch then used - disappointed in somebody

[Merryprankster]

And I'm not talking about a tranny putting a roofie in your drink ;)

I have decided to begin training for MMA again, and went to the school to get some striking drills in. We share our school with a "combatives" type of style. They are leaving soon, as (good for them!) they have outgrown the space they occupy. Sometimes, I know, they spar. I've seen it. I saw them gloving up, and, having been invited in before, figured maybe I could get a little time in.

I asked "Oh, hey, are you sparring?"

"Yeah, some kicking! Come on in!"

Maybe I should have clarified what that meant. But, what this actually meant was kicking drills and some "self-defense" type stuff. They didn't spar. Well and good, but not what I am training for. Ok, figured I. Mea culpa for not checking. But now I'm in it, and I can't very well withdraw. That would be impolite.

Now, part of this was to execute the initial part of the technique series (heavy on groin shots and elbows to the head, etc.), then finish "however you wanted." So, I used my strength - grappling. This being a self-defense situation, I used takedowns and throws that left me standing at completion, with my opponent mostly or preferably under the knee-on-belly position, which I believe is optimal for ass-kicking and mobility.

"Ok, good, good."

So, I go through, training with my partners. About 30 seconds later, he calls everybody together, highlights my grappling experience, then asks me to do to him what I had just done to my partners. OK, no problem. I dump him, and place him in knee on belly. To clarify, this was not a bent over, "looking for mount" type of knee on belly. It was an upright, "ready to punch/kick/run" type of knee on belly - one geared towards my own mobility, rather than immobilizing my opponent.

"Finish," he says

"Ok, like, um, how do you want me to do this," I'm thinking because this isn't MY game, it's not MY class, and I'm here, even if disinterested at this point, politely and not to disrupt anything. He must have seen that moment of thought run over my face.

"Finish like you would, you know?"

Well, alright, thinks I. I already had his arm pulled way way up and secured into my stomach. I had gone nowhere NEAR armbar, because, typically, that's not what I was trained to do in a "self-defense" situation. But, I viewed his comment as a command/invitation to execute a jointlock.

While applying said jointlock carefully - on him, the non-grappling-experienced person-so-I-don't-hurt-him - the ****er pulls out a rubber knife and proceeds to start slashing me with it. Yeah, well, no ****...why dya think I was in knee on belly and not doing an armbar in the first place?! I want to be in a position to see what's coming, or to disengage while kicking you etc, especially if I find out you have a weapon! We were then treated to a two minute thesis on "not wanting to develop a relationship with the guy via grappling, throwing etc"

In essence, he used me as an example to his students about what was wrong with grappling (writ large, to include throws and slamming takedowns that leave you standing) and why what they were doing was "better." Completely disrespectful, in my mind, and not something I would ever do to somebody else.

It took awhile for it to sink in, what had just occurred. I was most ****ed because he's always been pretty cool, and I thought he was a better person than that. Why did he do that? There was no reason to. If that was something he wanted to leap on as an opportunity, (ie, there's an experienced grappler here today, let's take some advantage of grappling do's and don'ts, figure out what to do, etc, here, let me stab you with a rubber knife!!!) I would have been MORE than happy to oblige!

While I was most disappointed with him, I then had to deal with:

a series of smug, irritating follow-ups from one of his students, without being allowed to put him through the wall

the contradictory logic of some of the things spouting from another - for instance, a thumb gouge to the spot where the clavicles meet was used to try and get an attacker to go backwards. I missed at one point, and so resorted to an old wrestler's trick of pulling on the collarbone....which caused him to bend over, which meant I could move him since he was off balance. I then received a lecture on how what I had just done was "pain compliance...." Uh, and sticking your thumb in that spot isn't? Never mind that the collarbone thing was actually bio-mechanical (trying to get the weight forward or back so I can move him. The collarbone is a nice handle I can MOVE you with, for just a second, which opens up my counters, regardless of your pain level. ) But I digress...

I did however, enjoy the little irony that during 2 attacker on 1 drills two things we were told "this is not a boxing match" and the above treatise on grappling, were precisely the two things that stymied his students. My boxing footwork kept me at the exits, caused them to bump into each other, etc, and my grappling allowed me to move people into each other and such. I mentioned to smug boy (as part of a conversation he insisted on having) - well, I was staying near the door and he said "Well, what if you trip and fall on the railing?" I said "what if I get hit by a bus?"

He didn't get it.

Finally, at the end of it all, a well-meaning guy I like came over and started basically telling me all about the point of the combatives, and it was different, designed for the street where we assume the other person doesn't know anything (why this assumption, I don't know...) etc, and I waved him off and said:

"Look, I suffer no illusions that what I do is a sport. That's it. It's not self-defense. It's not training for "the street." We can all play what-if games all day - it will always be possible to come up with something or a scenario that puts you on the receiving end of an ass whooping. The biggest skill I take away from BJJ is this - there is only a VERY small percentage of the population that can KEEP me on the ground, and I know that mobility is going to be crucial to survival."

He paused for a second and said "Well, you know there is one person who can keep you on the ground - you. You can keep yourself there, if you aren't careful."

Easily the only valuable point of what was otherwise an unrecoverable hour.

I'm not ****ed off any more, but I am disappointed in that instructor. I always thought he was a better guy than to do something like that. It was, in my mind, a blatantly disrespectful thing to do.

[Shaolin Wookie]

WTF.........


Man, that's so low, it's practically groundfighting....LOL....

You should have broken his arm in an armbar and told him that's what you get when you bring a rubber knife to a groundfight.

[bodhitree]

yeah, unfortunately people always need to confirm to themselves and others that they have all of the answers.... even if these answers are hypothetical. That actually doesn't surprise me at all!

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's just arrogance. There's a lot of that in TMA. The kinds of guys that wear karate gi's to baseball games and get respect from local street gangs after punching out loudmouthed spectators and their fat white women.

[冠木侍]

Not as glamorous as the title sounds.

I've seen this before in some incarnation or another. You have every reason be (have been) angry at this person because you were basically used. The method I find that is used by SOME instructors to solidify their credibility is to disprove whatever theory that seems to be in contrast to what they are teaching.

Your up son!!:

You follow your cue and enter stage right..

Let the show begin!


You were the perfect example of what not to do because (from your accounts), you were put in a funny situation. You did something your would not have normally done in that situation because you were politely listening to instruction from a person you thought was a good guy. Sounds like a big set up in my opinion. Where was he hiding that rubber knife?

I have to commend you on your take down technique. The way you describe your method is actually an optimal technique because it keeps the other guy on the floor and you on top. Then as you stated, a knee in the gut or floating ribs, some kind of lock (arm, wrist) to keep them immobilized. You get a nice view of things just in case the other dude is getting ideas and your are in a good spot to deal with anything or to just take off and run. One thing I was taught was to make sure that they are not completely on their back, that they are positioned on their side, which makes it more difficult for a counter and opens up a lot of easy targets.

You may have been perceived as showing off and someone felt that you needed to be put in your place....one possible reason. But I wasn't there and I have naught any psychic powers to delve into the minds of others. My conjecture, is from the point of an instructor trying to keep interest and order within his school.

Do you not find it an honor that you are useful? J/K dude.

And the guy with the comments...how old was he? I find that a lot of young people like to mouth off even against older and more senior students if they think they are better or if you are better and just happen to have a bad day in training. Usually the sign of a kid who has a lot of growing up to do (yes, there are adults who have not yet grown up). Maybe you'll get a chance to "play" with him on your terms in the near future.

Take this as a learning experience of what not to do. Your skill is your own and it seems as if you are good at what you do. Grappling is very fun but I myself am a bit out of practice at the moment Currently just trying to get back into it...slowly but surely. When in the presence of other schools or styles, I don't really give it all away in the beginning. I'm not an attention seeker by any means and do not owe anyone any explanation about my experience...unless I know and trust you to some degree.

Don't want to sound preachy but I def sympathize with what happened.

Take care.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Agreed, somewhat, but it's mostly arrogance. Some people, as teachers (in all fields of education--especially the scholarly kind), cannot bear to stand on equal grounds. They always have to assert the upper hand/knife, by any means necessary, especially when someone challenges their range of comfort and they begin to feel insecure.

The real insult is that what was a friendly learning environment turned into a "Now I'm going to make a lesson out of you, boy" kind of thing to discourage his students from learning something valuable from a person with experience in that realm of thought/technique. That's just bad teaching.

The teacher who is not also a student is neither---(I think Y. J. Ming said that....or maybe it's an old proverb)

[yenhoi]

Troll

:rolleyes:

:eek:

[Pork Chop]

I think he thought you were showing off with your fancy throws that probably weren't part of his holy curriculum.

as far as the mouthy kid, let him prove it... if he's got rubber knives, he should be able to apply his "advanced theories" on a moving target, no? In the meantime, you rampage him on his head.

[Black Jack II]

Funny thing is, historically, most instructors who taught combatives from a honest to goodness military or police perspective in the old days, this being the 60's and under. Back when the word combatives was not a marketing buzz term for douchebags in camo pants had you guessed it.....a combative sports background.

Wrestling, boxing, judo, savate....with a mix of dirty tricks thrown in.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Sounds to me like you were using good solid Chinese methodology with your strategy...and that guy is just an a$$.

[bodhitree]

Sounds to me like you were using good solid Chinese methodology with your strategy...and that guy is just an a$$.

Why does Chinese have anything to do with it?

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL....I think he meant "don't follow them to the ground and prepare to run away".

Sounds more like the Arthurian English method: "Run away!"

[zapruder_bjj]

Sounds like you didnt have wirst control...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QInKKHlB51g

[David Jamieson]

yeah, you need wrist control right away or else your **** is fake.

[冠木侍]

All this input and conjecture about what happened and no word yet from the original poster...must be a busy weekend.

Who's in the habit of wearing gi's to baseball games?

[Merryprankster]

It has been a busy weekend. Trained this morning, errands, then setting up for bay to breakers.

There's really nothing else to say about it. I was just disappointed that this guy chose to do this. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I didn't have wrist control on the opposite side...

LOL at that video!

[zapruder_bjj]

It has been a busy weekend. Trained this morning, errands, then setting up for bay to breakers.

There's really nothing else to say about it. I was just disappointed that this guy chose to do this. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I didn't have wrist control on the opposite side...

LOL at that video!

Seriously though next time you are in class doing drills like this pull out your rubber gun( I would also recommend a rubber pellet gun for when they try to kick or grab the gun out of your hand) and proceed to show them that their technique is weak... and remember the video wrist control, because today my friend there is no crack for you!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Who's in the habit of wearing gi's to baseball games?

Only the great ones. In the old days, when traditions still were honored.......

[Merryprankster]

Wookie,

It's funny you say that because it kinda reminds me of when people say "well, I don't wanna train in a gi...no gi is more 'realistic'."

I always say "Hmmmm....where I come from people wear clothes...."

Don't get me wrong, I know it's not quite the same, but acting like we all run around naked is just kind of silly.

Unless you're protecting yourself in a nudist camp. But really, who wants to do that. Nobody hot ever becomes a nudist. It's always saggy, fat, ugly people.

[Water Dragon]

Am I the only one who thinks this whole thing is just plain funny? Sorry, MP, but I woulda loved to have been there just to see the expression on your face.

Who cares if those schlumps know what you can do? You know what you can do. If anything, you've encountered a slight ego problem in yourself. Think of it as an opportunity to better yourself in that aspect.

Oh yeah,

*points and laughs*

[unkokusai]

Much better story if you had broken his arm while he was 'stabbing' you with a rubber knife...


Well, there's always next time.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Another issue: why do martial artists assume that the proper defense for the takedown is to slaughter the takedowner with a knife by cutting him up? What if it's a barfight? Are you going to slash up some drunk dude, go to jail, etcetera? I mean really.........or what if it's your best friend, and he's just mad, and maybe he threatened to break your arm because you're having a fallout. Surely the proper defense is not to slash him up with a knife..........

Enough is enough with the too deadly to defend myself bullcrap......

[Samurai Jack]

This looks like an opportunity to learn something new to me. I guess I'm the only one who sees it this way, but can this experience be used in any way to improve your skills? Is there something you could do to prevent that from happening in the future if you were in a similar position, but the guy had a real knife?

[Mr Punch]

This looks like an opportunity to learn something new to me. I guess I'm the only one who sees it this way, but can this experience be used in any way to improve your skills? Is there something you could do to prevent that from happening in the future if you were in a similar position, but the guy had a real knife?Well yes: he could have not paused in knee-on-belly and waited for the instructor's cues and then cranked the armbar on at full speed.

The instructor used his position of respect to get him to slow down, to wait for him, then into a position where he has a good guess of what's coming plus he knows that Merry is going to have more respect and common sense than to break his arm: in short he's abusing his position of respect.

[Mr Punch]

precisely ; in fact, I was pretty much thinking as I was reading the story, "ok, this is gonna end w/that moron's elbow getting dislocated";

the funny thing is, the fact that you showed restraint when he started stabbing you is more a sign that you would probably do well in a "real" self-defense situation, because you kept your cool and were able to "respond" appropriately


promises promises promisesThe problem is, the guy probably doesn't realise he's wrong. Breaking his arm would just give him an excuse to claim some **** about not letting him get in that position in the first place if 'it was for real' or 'on the streets'. I don't really blame this guy: he's just another geezer who thinks he's right. If Merry could have kept superior position, wrapping up his knife arm too or something it would have illustrated things better. Or, managed to extricate himself when he saw the knife and pick up the nearest chair to threaten him with...!!! :D

[Samurai Jack]

It was an upright, "ready to punch/kick/run" type of knee on belly - one geared towards my own mobility, rather than immobilizing my opponent.

"Finish," he says

"Ok, like, um, how do you want me to do this," I'm thinking because this isn't MY game, it's not MY class, and I'm here, even if disinterested at this point, politely and not to disrupt anything. He must have seen that moment of thought run over my face.

"Finish like you would, you know?"



It sounds like Merryprankster was planning on being mobile and ready to move away depending on what came next... which is basically what the instructor seemed to think the correct response would be. It's a combatives class, not a sporting session, something Merryprankster clearly understood. He asks, "How do you want me to do this?" and the teacher indicates that he should use a grappling move. This gives the teacher the opening to demonstrate the point that both he and Merryprankster apparently agreed would be a less advantageous move on the street.

To me, the message was:

Because you never know what's coming, on the street, you don't necessarily want to go for the less mobile position.

The message did not seem to be:

Merryprankster is a fool because he grapples.

When the teacher said, "Finish like you would..." Merryprankster just as easily could have stepped back, simulated a kick to the back of the teacher's head, and run away. Something like that seemed to be the plan.

Why be upset that the teacher was on the same page, and wanted to demonstrate that to the class, with someone who actually knows how to grapple?

[Mr Punch]

Oh, OK, Jack, good explanation: I see where you're coming from now.

Although, I've never really had Merry down as the over-sensitive type, so I would guess that the guy's attitude and that of his class were what really p!ssed on any chance of this being anything of a genuine learning experience.

[冠木侍]

It has been a busy weekend. Trained this morning, errands, then setting up for bay to breakers.

There's really nothing else to say about it. I was just disappointed that this guy chose to do this. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I didn't have wrist control on the opposite side...

LOL at that video!

Of course. Just some light jabs. Comments like that are only meant for phishers anyways.

Just some healthy ranting. Seem's as if it's the only way he was able to stab you.

Setting up for breakers? How did it go? I had an opp to do it a couple of years ago but was not ready. Those hills...that bridge...GG Park...yikes.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think you might have over reacted to this a little. First off, you got envited to join a class and you start doing your own thing. Rude? I think so. And so then the instructor was actually trying to make a point that you seem not to have taken. Wrestling is a sport. It is usually done by rules. If you are ever faced with more than one adversary you will end up getting kicked to death if you go down grappling. Even is you are left standing you cannot work an arm bar if someone is punching your kidneys out. Punch, kick, and move. Never try to apply wrestling techniques if you are faced with more than one person. It will get you killed. When several people are attacking you at one time, they will usually attempt to take you down and put you at a serious disadvantage. While down they will all take their shots at you and if you think you can defend against that, then maybe natural sellection is in order. Even if you are doing 1 on 1 the chances of others getting involved are great once you are down.
If you find yourself in a class where you think the instructor doesn't know his stuff, just find an excuse to leave without making a scene. But any time you are envited to join a class never start doing your own thing. Especially if it is not what the class is all about. I suspect that you will not be envited back.

[Shaolinlueb]

see, everyone does carry a knife with him! your sifu is wise beyond his years!!!!!!!


;):o

[Mr Punch]

I think you might have over reacted to this a little. First off, you got envited to join a class and you start doing your own thing. Rude? I think so. ...

Wrestling is a sport. It is usually done by rules. If you are ever faced with more than one adversary you will end up getting kicked to death if you go down grappling. ...

If you find yourself in a class where you think the instructor doesn't know his stuff, just find an excuse to leave without making a scene. But any time you are envited to join a class never start doing your own thing. Especially if it is not what the class is all about. I suspect that you will not be envited back.LOL x 3 (maybe more) :D

The point went that way ------>

[unkokusai]

If you are ever faced with more than one adversary you will end up getting kicked to death if you go down grappling. Never try to apply wrestling techniques if you are faced with more than one person. It will get you killed. When several people are attacking you at one time, they will usually attempt to take you down.



You're a fvcking moron. :rolleyes:

[bodhitree]

You're a fvcking moron. :rolleyes:


and he can't spell

[golden arhat]

i tottally understand

its like i have an 8 mil stretching in my left ear and it makes it a bit morevunerable say if someone tore it out

people at my gym say it to me
so i say back, what if someone just runs up from nowhere with a ski mask on and dropkicks you?

he put you in an abnormal situation where you were prepared to make an exit and used it to show off, its retarded.

[Eddie]

see, everyone does carry a knife with him! your sifu is wise beyond his years!!!!!!!


;):o

they do... down here

[golden arhat]

they do... down here

and more....

[Shaolinlueb]

they do... down here

well from the stories i hear, south africa is crazy. in the usa most people are too much of a p*ssy to even do anything.

[unkokusai]

Aren't YOU in the US?

[Lucas]

sounds like he wanted you to finish in a way that you would in a ring, yet with the intention of reacting like a gangster on the street.

which was apparently not clarified.

now if he had said "finish as though we are strangers on the street and i want you dead" I am sure your action would have differed.....

[Becca]

Sounds like you didnt have wirst control...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QInKKHlB51g
Na, if he'd just gone for the arm bar and not used classroom ethiquet, that rubber knife would have been flying through the air as the punk screemed about his elbow being torn apart. Any but-head can be an effective bully at half speed. That rubber nife cr@pwould not have happened if he'd told MP that it was to have been "real" sparring before the action started.

[Merryprankster]

It's always interesting to read people's responses.

Lee Chiang Po, I think you need to re-read my first post. We were instructed to do the series of movements/techniques he demonstrated, then follow up ANY WAY WE LIKED. The way I liked was throws and takedowns.

WD - I thought long and hard about whether or not this was my problem or his. I didn't even post this until two weeks after it happened. I ultimately came to the conclusion that it was his. I decided the "tone" of his class was decidedly one of showing me that my general set of responses was "wrong." I forward tripped the guy, followed with a knee to the head from a four point stance and was told it would have been "better" to kick him in the nuts, etc. I dunno - maybe I'm wrong about all of this.

Jack - If he had really wanted to tap into my grappling expertise, it would have been a good time to say "ok guys, we have an experienced grappler in the room. Let's talk about how we counter or escape from his attacks today." I don't mind being a training dummy...just don't really like being the stooge ;) Lucas kinda has the right of it, at least in my mind.

However, it does demonstrate quite clearly the power of repetition and of voice command. He said finish, I mulled it over in my head, and when he said "like you normally would," I finished in a sportive context. Perhaps that is a Mea Culpa.... on the other hand, I did not know his intent. Training is not the ring is not the street...

[Water Dragon]

Naw Bro, I agree it's his problem. That's not my point. I just don't get why it's bugging you as much as it seems to be. This cat is one of ten thousand idiots of the same ilk. There's nothing anyone can say or do to change this guys opinion. Same goes for most, if not all of his students. I've had people try to do the same thing to me many a times. I've found the easiest thing to do is play along and say, "Wow that's cool." They leave you alone quicker that way.

[Merryprankster]

Oh, I gotcha WD. I actually like the guy, and just thought he was better than that type. So I was disappointed that he did it. That's all. And I pretty much did what you said. Except for the one guy. He just irritated me ;)

[Seppukku]

It's always interesting to read people's responses.

Lee Chiang Po, I think you need to re-read my first post. We were instructed to do the series of movements/techniques he demonstrated, then follow up ANY WAY WE LIKED. The way I liked was throws and takedowns.

WD - I thought long and hard about whether or not this was my problem or his. I didn't even post this until two weeks after it happened. I ultimately came to the conclusion that it was his. I decided the "tone" of his class was decidedly one of showing me that my general set of responses was "wrong." I forward tripped the guy, followed with a knee to the head from a four point stance and was told it would have been "better" to kick him in the nuts, etc. I dunno - maybe I'm wrong about all of this.

Jack - If he had really wanted to tap into my grappling expertise, it would have been a good time to say "ok guys, we have an experienced grappler in the room. Let's talk about how we counter or escape from his attacks today." I don't mind being a training dummy...just don't really like being the stooge ;) Lucas kinda has the right of it, at least in my mind.

However, it does demonstrate quite clearly the power of repetition and of voice command. He said finish, I mulled it over in my head, and when he said "like you normally would," I finished in a sportive context. Perhaps that is a Mea Culpa.... on the other hand, I did not know his intent. Training is not the ring is not the street...


You were lucky, Merryprankster. You were lucky it wasn't me on the ground.

I've killed men in droves with rubber knives.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
If you are ever faced with more than one adversary you will end up getting kicked to death if you go down grappling. Never try to apply wrestling techniques if you are faced with more than one person. It will get you killed. When several people are attacking you at one time, they will usually attempt to take you down.



You're a fvcking moron.

You are probably right about that. However, not moron enough to tie myself up on the ground with someone while his buds kick the crap out of my head. I can tell you that from experience. If you think they will take turns on you, I have to wonder who the moron is. And if you use an arm bar or submission hold, just what the heck do you expect to do with it? You are tied up again while his buds are working your backside. What is so difficult to understand about that? You guys can laugh about it if you want, but until you have experienced it you will never understand if you don't now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
If you are ever faced with more than one adversary you will end up getting kicked to death if you go down grappling. Never try to apply wrestling techniques if you are faced with more than one person. It will get you killed. When several people are attacking you at one time, they will usually attempt to take you down.



You're a fvcking moron.

You are probably right about that. However, not moron enough to tie myself up on the ground with someone while his buds kick the crap out of my head. I can tell you that from experience. If you think they will take turns on you, I have to wonder who the moron is. And if you use an arm bar or submission hold, just what the heck do you expect to do with it? You are tied up again while his buds are working your backside. What is so difficult to understand about that? You guys can laugh about it if you want, but until you have experienced it you will never understand if you don't now.

While I don't think that you are a moron, I do wonder how it is that you think that you can keep standing VS multilple attackers.
I know that I would try my best to keep it standing too, as would everyone else, but as we have seen over and over in MANY (but not all) cases, the fight CAN end up on the ground regardless, then what?

[unkokusai]

Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
If you are ever faced with more than one adversary you will end up getting kicked to death if you go down grappling. Never try to apply wrestling techniques if you are faced with more than one person. It will get you killed. When several people are attacking you at one time, they will usually attempt to take you down.



You're a fvcking moron.

You are probably right about that. However, not moron enough to tie myself up on the ground with someone while his buds kick the crap out of my head. I can tell you that from experience. If you think they will take turns on you, I have to wonder who the moron is. And if you use an arm bar or submission hold, just what the heck do you expect to do with it? You are tied up again while his buds are working your backside. What is so difficult to understand about that? You guys can laugh about it if you want, but until you have experienced it you will never understand if you don't now.




And what is your experience with grappling? What kind? How long?

You do realize that with MORE people getting on you, there is a GREATER likelihood that you will end up on the ground whether you like it or not. Folks who listen to dopes like you and do not build the best grappling skills possible will be at an even greater disadvantage then.

And just so you know, the fact that you got your ass kicked by a bunch of people doesn't make you an expert in anything, Champ.

[Drake]

It's pretty much a guarantee you'll be on the ground. You can't possibly keep them all off of you.

From my experience, the best recommendations are to keep moving, go for disabling hits while you have your time standing, and use one person to block another. This is just what I picked up off the streets. No idea what TCMA recommends, and I haven't ever asked.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's pretty much a guarantee you'll be on the ground. You can't possibly keep them all off of you.

From my experience, the best recommendations are to keep moving, go for disabling hits while you have your time standing, and use one person to block another. This is just what I picked up off the streets. No idea what TCMA recommends, and I haven't ever asked.

Pretty much on the button.
IF you go down with one guy, you have a chance to get back up, WHEN it happens with more than one, the chances of getting up are far more slim.

[Drake]

And you will be kicked. Probably more than once.

All I can say is... brace for impact.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And you will be kicked. Probably more than once.

All I can say is... brace for impact.

Ah dude, I once went to break up a fight in the lot of the club I was working and when I got there, 2 guys were holding one guy down while a 3rd was just kicking him to crap.
Kids...

[Drake]

It was a good lesson for the guy on the ground about the fairness of life.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It was a good lesson for the guy on the ground about the fairness of life.

LOL, that's one way to look at it.

[golden arhat]

You are probably right about that. However, not moron enough to tie myself up on the ground with someone while his buds kick the crap out of my head. I can tell you that from experience. If you think they will take turns on you, I have to wonder who the moron is. And if you use an arm bar or submission hold, just what the heck do you expect to do with it? You are tied up again while his buds are working your backside. What is so difficult to understand about that? You guys can laugh about it if you want, but until you have experienced it you will never understand if you don't now.

and if your fighting just the one guy?

thats just as likely


and yeah you put him in an armbar, and then BREAK the arm real quick its easy.

or you choke him for a minute or 2 until he PASSES OUT


wrestling doesnt just involve taking people down it also involves stopping yourself from being taken down

besides which if i pick someone up and dump them on their head in front of all their friends, i seriously doubt theire friends would f@ck with me.

[Drake]

besides which if i pick someone up and dump them on their head in front of all their friends, i seriously doubt theire friends would f@ck with me.

Experience has proven that to be the opposite of what really happens, actually.

[Lucas]

weapons, weapons, more weapons, add some weapons and then get some weapons....

oh...well here in america at least.....

:D

i love my weapons.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Experience has proven that to be the opposite of what really happens, actually.

Drake is right.
I have found that only decapitation of the leader works well and it you follow it with the sodomizing of his corpse then EVERYONE gets the message.

[Lucas]

Drake is right.
I have found that only decapitation of the leader works well and it you follow it with the sodomizing of his corpse then EVERYONE gets the message.

dont forget to include the lamenting of his women folk

[sanjuro_ronin]

dont forget to include the lamenting of his women folk

They get sodomized too, the *****es !

[Lucas]

They get sodomized too, the *****es !

lol

just save me the hot ones that were un happy in their marriage

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol

just save me the hot ones that were un happy in their marriage

Only because you have the real Wing Chun.

Speaking of which:

[Lucas]

now THAT is one beautiful song I will definately hum in the spring time.

[Water Dragon]

So what happens if I throw the guy onto concrete and land on top of him? Do I still get my ribs kicked in?

[Lucas]

or what happens when you go down and realize multiple people are out to kick the snot out of you, BUT you're the one who has a hidden knife....can you get it into play?

[Water Dragon]

And what if you go to the ground, but then stand back up? Do you still get kicked in the head?

[Becca]

Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
If you are ever faced with more than one adversary you will end up getting kicked to death if you go down grappling. Never try to apply wrestling techniques if you are faced with more than one person. It will get you killed. When several people are attacking you at one time, they will usually attempt to take you down.
....Ok, this really needs said: Not all grappling is wrestling. MP isn't a wrestler, so his grappling isn't wrestling. And yes, you can to workan arm bar with someone wailing on your kidneys if your pain thresh hold is adiquate.

Also, he wasn't facing more than one person, so all this "taking it to the ground with multiple attacers" advise is completly out of context. And wrong. You use experience and situational awarness to govern if you take it to the grownd, not the number of people you are fighting.

[rogue]

And what if you go to the ground, but then stand back up? Do you still get kicked in the head?

Or if you fall out of a boxing ring and Apowyn makes like Jimmy Snuka and nails you with a "Superfly" splash?

[Becca]

Every senario I know with multiple attacker ends up on the ground if it lasts any time at all, so being able to fight your way free from there under those conditions is helpful. Not saying it would be pretty or even clean, but if it gets you out of a kicking cometition where you are the hacky sak....

[Drake]

The BEST approach is to run away... and get your payback individually when they are alone. One at a time. With a baseball bat. Patience is key.


Burning everything, enemies included, will also gain you some fear points.

[Merryprankster]

Becca,

Actually, I wrestled in high school and part of college. :)

Rogue, if you fall out of the boxing ring you get to hear about it for YEARS.

[Becca]

Becca,

Actually, I wrestled in high school and part of college. :)

Rogue, if you fall out of the boxing ring you get to hear about it for YEARS.
Is that your main style now? If not, I wouldn't call you a wrestler. I'd call you a grappler with an early wrestling backround. Splitting hairs, I know....

[unkokusai]

Is that your main style now? If not, I wouldn't call you a wrestler. ...



Wow, a cruel insult indeed! :eek:

[Becca]

Wow, a cruel insult indeed! :eek:quote the whole thing booger butt. I said it made him a grappler with an early wrestling backround. :mad:

[rogue]

As far as I know he MP only fell out of a ring once so I wouldn't think it's his main style but more of a tactic.:D

[SimonM]

And what is your experience with grappling? What kind? How long?


What I often find perplexing is the extent to which people who claim to be traditional martial artists disregard grappling. A lot of the forms I've studied are at least 50% grappling when broken down into applications. Traditional martial arts accepted the importence of grappling and tended to advise heavy drilling in grappling applications.

I think my point is this: some people are trying to morph this into a BJJ vs TCMA thread. I think that is essentially spurious and question the validity of the whole BJJ vs TMA discussion at the outset.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

Drake is right.
I have found that only decapitation of the leader works well and it you follow it with the sodomizing of his corpse then EVERYONE gets the message.

god im h0rny.

[SimonM]

GDA: You accomplish something that few do, you disturb me. ;)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

aww shucks. *kicks rock at feet*

thanks man.

[rogue]

At least that's better than kicking kids with Downs Syndrome.

[Water Dragon]

At least that's better than kicking kids with Downs Syndrome.

How else are you gonna learn how to defend yourself in case you get jumped at a group home?

[Merryprankster]

You can always tell a good thread by the way it devolves into freakiness. Awesome.

[rogue]

Bring it on home brother, get us back on track.



BTW, The tags for this thread read....
complaint department, gda is disturbing, self defense

[rogue]

well, I was staying near the door and he said "Well, what if you trip and fall on the railing?" I said "what if I get hit by a bus?"

He didn't get it.

The good old "what if" game, the last resort of the guy who just realized that what he was taught isn't holding water for some reason and needs to draw attention away from that fact. I've seen this over and over again where people mistake the scenario or drill for what can happen in the real world and it's a real bad blind spot. Tell the intructor about SevenStar's elevator scenario and see if he has his guys training for that.


Finally, at the end of it all, a well-meaning guy I like came over and started basically telling me all about the point of the combatives, and it was different, designed for the street where we assume the other person doesn't know anything (why this assumption, I don't know...) etc, ...

It's a dumb assumption at best. Why not assume that there are a certain percentage of guys who know "something", or who are just real experienced when it comes to beating up guys and then learn to read what they may possibly know? The other thing is that most guys training for "the street" have little if any street experience.

[SimonM]

If any assumptions must be made the safe assumption is that your opponent knows how to fight. That way if it turns out that they do not you have a pleasant surprise and if they do you might not end up getting your ass handed to you.

[rogue]

Right, but to see why some of the assumptions are made you have to look at what is being sold by many RBSD and combatives instructors; solutions. Without the assumptions the solutions may not hold water and that's not good for the school, the instructor or the student's peace of mind.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If any assumptions must be made the safe assumption is that your opponent knows how to fight. That way if it turns out that they do not you have a pleasant surprise and if they do you might not end up getting your ass handed to you.

Correct, if we assume anything, it is that our potential attacker/opponent is stronger, bigger, faster than us AND knows how to fight.
While me may never meet Mr.Worse-case-scenario, its best to prepare for him.
Remember, Proper Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance.

[rogue]

If your opponent meets those criteria the only training to do outside of running or using a already deployed large caliber handgun, is kissing your tush good bye.

You will never train for the worst case scenario because you really don't know what it is.

[SimonM]

Concentrated thermonuclear strike. :D

[rogue]

That could be bad too.:D

What we sometimes forget is that our training is almost always restricted to certain parameters and the real world isn't. So the worst cases you'll encounter are the ones you didn't even know you had to train for.