CLF seuhng jin jih

[jdhowland]

Here's a common CLF "arrow fingers" technique: attack while stepping forward by circling and thrusting both arms while internally rotating forearms so that the fingers are extended, the palms face more-or-less outward and the palms form the angles of a letter "V" shape. The simultaneous strikes are made with the fingertips with the mass of the body falling onto them.

My question is regarding the best targets for this. My teacher showed the move as an attack against the costal margins of the sternum--very painful. But I once saw a student of LKH teaching with the hands spread much ****her apart. It occurs to me that this could target stomach or lung meridian points--even more painful, in my experience. Is this an example of "sealing the breath"?

In our style, rotating the shoulders, as in the beginning of this technique, is a signal that the move is meant to circle the opponent's arm or shoulder. The angle of the open hands follows the lines made by the inner margins of the sternocleidomastoids which could guide the fingertips directly toward the carotid sinuses. This would seem to be a fine response against a frontal grab or choke, with the spiraling over the attackers arms a clue to the intent.

Any other takes on this one?

jd

[CLFNole]

We do this in combination with lok qiu, where the arm blocks and twists into biu gee/jin gee - two finger strike.

We can also block with cum sow or pak sow and come over the top with biu gee/jin gee.

[lianweizhi]

Sisuk Lance,

When I first read this post, I thought of the biu ji as well, but I think the technique the OP is referring to is actually the one in the first section of sup gee, after the grab in the nau ma, then the been choy, and then whirling around and stabbing forward with all the fingers, palm facing out. After that, we step back in double pak sao, then step back again in double pow jerng and stand straight up before beginning the horse stance section as I like to call it.

It sounds as though that stabbing forward part is what the OP is referring to - even if he isn't, I would be interested in the application for this move as well. The OPs explanation sounds pretty reasonable, can you explain further?

Thanks

GL

[nospam]

My general take on most double hand attacks in patterns such as this is, in application, it is a singe hand/arm attack, especially describing the hoi jong of sup ji kuen. The problem with double hand attacks are both hands are either high or low and neither are in a position of defense, plus..no real need to use 2 hands to target an area. Regardless, in terms of interpretations and applications..it's all good.

The defending against a choke scenario is a legitimate example for when a double hand strike could play well. In terms of targeting - the eyes.

It's all good.

nospam
bak hsing kwoon
:cool:

[lianweizhi]

nospam:

I agree with you on the double handed techniques - they are practiced double handed just to expose the practitioner to using both hands to perform the same single handed technique, in general.

Regarding targeting the eyes, I suppose I never thought of the technique in question as targeting the eyes, I was more in line with the OP's theory of attacking the sternum. The reason being is because of the downward trajectory of the technique and the four fingered stab... somewhat of a large surface area to be attacking the eyes with? By redirecting the attack upwards you lose the benefit of breaking the opponent's hold as well as the force generated from the downward motion and the pronation of the arms...

I'm starting to wonder if we're all talking on the same technique?

[CLFNole]

Actually I didn't read the initial post carefully enough the first time. The part JD is referring to is seen classically in the bow sequence. Although in the form people from the LKH line (my line) do it with the hands spread more outward the actual technique is closer like JD was talking about. However most 2-handed techniques is the forms in true application are better suited for a single hand.

[nospam]

Yes, I am not exactly sure of which technique described. If it is a downward application then..no..most likely not to the eyes.

..attack while stepping forward by circling and thrusting both arms while internally rotating forearms so that the fingers are extended, the palms face more-or-less outward and the palms form the angles of a letter "V" shape. The simultaneous strikes are made with the fingertips with the mass of the body falling onto them.

I did not read downward, and I must admit I am still not sure of the exact technique. Is it the jin-jih-vy-tis technique?? Up close and personal as you thrust the floating ribs? :eek:

nospam
:cool:
bak hsing kwoon

[jdhowland]

. The part JD is referring to is seen classically in the bow sequence.

Yep. That's the one i was talking about. LKH tradition does this in some openings. My Ho Ngau lineage sometimes has it a little later in the sets but it's obviously an important technique in CLF.

I did mean to indicate a downward direction by describing it as "falling" onto the fingertips. The movement should be timed to make contact with the fingers and land the lead foot at the same moment. This would seem to indicate targets in the neck or chest region. I have no reason to question my sifu's choice of targets; i simply wondered why people in the LKH lineage spread their arms ****her apart to do this. It might be used to attack the tendon of the biceps, but that's a hard target to hit with a strike and the set-up isn't right.

I think this is a true double-handed technique. Many bilateral moves are meant to train single techniques on either side, such as double sinking bridge where the arms move to the sides like spreading wings. But in this case both hands move forward and the strike affects both sides of the heart region. In TCM this is supposed to cause a sympathetic response that is more dangerous than being struck on one side only.

Our style generally avoids front door fighting. But in this case the opponent must be facing you (as in a grappling/choking scenario) because if his chest is turned to the side you have no target available and a bilateral move is impossible.

Thanks for the feedback.

[jdhowland]

...spread their arms ****her apart to do this.



Must remember to use the word "wider" next time.

We are being censored by machines. What will happen to the moral imperative?

[lianweizhi]

Alternatively you can use "further" ;)

nospam, essentially both arms circle outside to inside (presumably to go over an opponent's arms), then both hands shoot forward at a downward angle, while the wrists pronate so that the palms face outwards. To me, the pronation does two things - it generates an "outward" force that breaks the opponents hold and also generates a "whirling" force as per the yum chop choy.

[jdhowland]

Alternatively you can use "further" ;)

I know, but i resist it because it's not really correct. Further is the comparative of forth. ****her is the comparative of far.

I suppose i could try to ressurect the Middle English word farrer.


Lianweizhi, that was a very nice description of the technique. Thanks.

jd