My Shuai-Chiao(my definition)

[DarkKnight]

A style is as much about the practitioner as it is the actual person. Personal interpretation is the really the soul of the art. I read alot of threads about Shuai-chiao (SC) and it seems that my vision is very different from others. Mind you that my interest in SC stems from years of working as a Bouncer and poice officer.
SC is a brutal and savage system that slams your opponent into unforgiving objects (walls, floors, trees ect,) often breaking arms and legs on the way down. It is the perfect stand up style and has an extensive anti-ground fighting component. It is not a style that should be used if you are worried about not hurting your opponent or worried about getting sued.
To engage a SC man is like trying to hold on to a flesh ripping, joint breaking tornado. If you watch a SC competition it would be easy to mistake it for a type of judo, but this would be a serious misnomer. Though I won my weight class at the SC nationals, I really didn't feel that I demonstated the true art. Not the art that I see. Real SC can only be expressed in reality fighting. San Shou has some elements to this but even that is vastly watered down. The style that I call Shuai-chiao is very powerful. That is why I train it.

[wu_de36]

I have made it a habit to highly respect most Shuai Chiao practitioners I come across.

[Kristoffer]

Shuai Shiao rules!!
Im entering a ss comp. in november.. :eek: that will be scary :rolleyes: .. :D

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

[GGL]

I have to agree with Darknight. I have been studying Shuai Chiao for bout 8 years now and have found it one of the most brutal arts around. I have tried BJJ and some standup punch kick arts and have found no comparison to Shuai Chiao. It it has every element of a complete Martial art... punch kick lock and most of all throws.

Good post Darknight!!!!!

[Tvebak]

What i have understood is that shuai-chiao is basicly judo without groundwork.
I always hoped this was not true.
Is there anywhere on the net where i may find some pictures or drawings of shuai-chiao techniques?

[DarkKnight]

I don't know of any such site, but I would be happy to try and answer any questions you have.

[Water Dragon]

www.combatshuaichiao.com (http://www.combatshuaichiao.com)

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[GGL]

http://shuaichiao.org

check it out

[Chang Style Novice]

Hey, GGL, is it possible I know you? This is Austin, from Paul Hwang's Tai Chi People school.

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[MonkeySlap Too]

Shuai Chiao is much more than just Judo without ground work. A buddy of mine who is a long time Kenpo roughneck refers to us as 'Klingon Combat School.'

It is effective, simple, direct and not goinmg to get you in touch with your inner child - although your inner child might get knocked out of you when you hit the ground.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Nutt'nhunny]

actually shaui chiao is quite internal, the postures have internal training to them. Also many shuai chiao practitioners crosstrain in tai chi, which coincidentally has shuai chiao.

I don't personally beleive that judo/jj has all the same stuff that shuai chiao has. Very very similar, but jj is made for the gi, SC for the jacket.

Then again I'm not a master of either, so I can't say whats there and whats not. Shuai chio "fast" version. Is very very advanced and seems to use more rooting than jj/judo, in it's circular movements. BTW Trad, jj, like kano jj looks very very much like shuai chiao minus the cool set ups and footwork.

a grabbing stlye like mantis or eagle claw combined with shuai chiao and hsing I would be awesome. Too bad those old masters werent into cross training. Looks like I'll have to keep practicing and try to make a personal fighting system.

A little help with that....Which eagle claw master would teach me the most, hsing I? Shuai chiao?

[GGL]

I've met Paul a couple of times and have seen his tai chi.. very good.. I even seen his Chang style tai chi... I'm up in RR with Cent Tex Martial Arts (Dave Pickens school).. it is very possible that we have met.. been to tournaments.. or any gatherings..?

[Chang Style Novice]

No tournaments, I'd have gone to the one last week but for the flu...

only gathering was Shifu Hwang's Christmas/housewarming party last year.

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[GGL]

Kool.. Is Jeff Hughes still over there.. I haven't talk to him in a while.. I think he is helping us a the Harry Man Festival in Brushy Creek next week.... I always open to discuss Shuai Chiao.. we could meet sometime

[Chang Style Novice]

Jeff's the Mantis guy, right? If so, no. He's got his own place in south Austin now.

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[GGL]

I just checked out his website and saw he was down south.. kool.. are yall going to have someone else come in or is Paul going to run solo for a while?

[Chang Style Novice]

He's been solo for as long as I've been there - bout a year and a half now. I only know Jeff Hughes by reputation (Shifu Hwang and a foxy gal in my oil painting class.)

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[DarkKnight]

Honeysmack, it must be remembered that SC is not dependent and the gi/jacket/clothing, but rather uses the body's natural handles to implement the throw. By natural handles I mean head, neck, arms, legs, lower lip, ect. SC also differs from judo/ju jitsu in the violence of the entry and destructivness of the levers that direct opposing force. The throw, which is the ultimate technique in SC, often seems incidental to the attack. The reason for this is because the set-ups are so aggressive and usually destructive in of themselves. You also won't see throws done with such force that the thrower is ripped off his feet with the victim, like you see in modern judo.,

[Knifefighter]

Dark Knight:
Have you done any MMA competitions? If so, which ones and how did you do?

[Tvebak]

I looked at the videos in the throw alley, cool stuff.
It seemes to me that many times after finishing a takedown technique the denfender moves into a low horsestance close to his downed attacker, any special reason for this?

[Nutt'nhunny]

yeah to kick his ass. Like Vitor belford does to grounded opponents. Low horse stance rules.

[WongFeHung]

our suet gok (shuai jiao) does not use the jacket much at all,very rarely- sometimes we do it in t-shirts.The breakfalls we do slap out. Many shuai jiao guys do not. I would be very interested in hearing pros and cons on this topic. One shuai-jiao guy said JJ guys who slap out break their elbows. I have slapped out in the street and never hurt my elbow. We also cover with the other hand to protect us from follow ups.

[Mr. Nemo]

In our, falling training, we don't slap out either. We curl our arms and knees in, kind of like an upside down version of judo's turtle position. This is, in part, to protect against follow-up stomps, or to help us create space and escape the bottom should the guy jump on us once he's thrown us.

"a grabbing stlye like mantis or eagle claw combined with shuai chiao and hsing I would be awesome. Too bad those old masters werent into cross training. Looks like I'll have to keep practicing and try to make a personal fighting system."

Some of the old masters were into cross training - Grandmaster Liu's teacher encouraged him to seek out other masters of other styles, to the point of kicking him out of the house, giving him a list of names, and saying "go visit these guys and learn their tricks."

[MonkeySlap Too]

The Japanese style breakfall (slapping with the arm, one arm up) evolved from warriors wearing bamboo armor or fighting on tatami mats. The danger inherent with this type of falling is two-fold:

1.) Often you will be falling on concrete or gravel, or other unsavory places. Uneven concrete, rocks, broken bottles can all do damage to your slapping arm that makes it hard to continue the fight. I had a Judo friend who shattered his arm in three places this way.

2.) While extending / slapping does distribute the force of hitting the ground over a larger area, it fails to compress the internal organs. Therefore you are more likely to be shocked when falling this way rather than the Shuai Chiao way. The Shuai Chiao method compresses your organs and protects them from soft shock. Soft shock is actually more dangerous than hard shock. This is why there are more deaths from softball pitches than hardballs.

Shuai Chiao exponents also emphasize that Shuai Chiao throws can come from angles / directions that are unorthodox, and mat slapping just won't work as you aren't being 'fed' a safe path.

Also - if a shuai chiao player is applying black hand methods on you, you can pretty much forget continuing the fight on the ground, unless YOU took HIM down.

This is not a case of a 'superior' method, but two different methods intended for two different enviornments.

Having played both Judo and Shuai Chiao, I find the Shuai Chiao aproach to be more pratical for the street. But that in no way denigrates Judo. Judo is meant to be a sport version of Jujitsu, and because of its emphasis on Randori (free practice)- a trait it shares with Shuai Chiao - it can produce very dangerous fighters.

But - in context - Shuai Chiao is more 'street oriented'. Hence the preference for the head tuck, ulbows up, fetal falling position. (Not to be confused with Fred Ettishes highly feared system of Fetal Fighting ;) )

There are more pros / cons going both ways.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Tvebak]

Its funny about the breakfalls, i have trained a bit of cintura desprezada from capoeira regional, these exercises is made to make one fall well when being thrown, but seem very different from the methods of for instance judo/jiujitsu.
Several times when playing around with my Judo/jiujtsu people (in my experience) fall like cats, rounding the back and never bridging.
But sometimes using brigdes end me up in a situation very much to my advantage.
Not better, just diffrent.
BTW..what is black hand?

[WongFeHung]

this has merit, I was taught the "fetal" position years ago by Peter Chema, soI will look into the other method with more detail-meaning, I'm gonna have my guys throw me around the mo-gwoon till I puke!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Not being an arrogant snob ;) I also play other methods of getting out of falls/safe falling. For instance, in Kun Tao - there is very hard to describe method where you twist out of the throw kind of like a cat and flip out onto your feet - but that only works against certain throws.

Black Hand is nothing that spooky, no levitation or chi blasts from across the room here. In Shuai Chiao it refers to the alteration of the throwing technique from it's 'safe' version to a method designed to break or kill the opponent. It breaks down into many specific training categories, but if I told you I'd have to kill you ;) .

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[CrushingFist]

"a grabbing stlye like mantis or eagle claw combined with shuai chiao and hsing I would be awesome. Too bad those old masters werent into cross training. Looks like I'll have to keep practicing and try to make a personal fighting system."


ACtually...Grandmaster Lily Lau learned shuai-jiao from the grandmaster of the system many years ago, She only learned for a few years, but she's the grandmaster of eagle claw so, yeah someone HAS learned both shuai jiao and eagle claw heheh. i can't remember his name unfortunately, but i think he's recognized as THE shuai jiao grandmaster, i've seen pictures of him, he looked as strong as an ox with arms and legs like treetrunks..

[DarkKnight]

Though there is somewhat of an energy defusing element associated with slapping the ground, the true reason that it was implemented in training was totally structural in design. By slapping the ground correctly the arm hits the floor after the hand and body. This protects the elbow from injury. In SC falling the fetal like position, though safer for the internal organs, is more dangerous to the elbow until the technique is mastered. It should also be noted that in SC, falling is a very serious issue. There are about four key elements that constitutes a perfect fall, first and foremost is surving the throw. Defending, attacking and disengaging are next.

Knifefighter, I was training to enter a MMA event a few months ago when I injured my knee in training. I will have my knee scoped next week and no doubt will be back in training in the comming months. However, my sparring matches went well. The problem with MMA is that though it is a very good test, many of the techniques that we train are extremly dangerous.
I know this sound very cliche' but it is true. I don't think I am prepared to try to maim or cripple a downed opponent in a sporting event. However, I am a purple belt in BJJ and would be more inclined to grapple should it go to the ground, rather than use SC finishing techniques.
It's the SC throws and entries that I'm anxious to use :cool:

[Knifefighter]

Dark Knight:
Interesting. Could you elaborate a bit? Can you compare and contrast the techs of BJJ that you would use in the ring vs. the more dangerous ones that you might be hesitant to use in a MMA event?

[Nutt'nhunny]

yeah great, Lily Lau. She's awesome, but she only teaches the indoor stuff to familly. Whats the use if I have no future in the system? I need a system with all that stuff, where I would actually get to learn all 108 locks. Oh well, just my luck, I have to start from scratch just like some peasant 500 years ago. Meanwhile some lucky person knows of an ideal system like that that can learn all the stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I love hsing I and Tang Lang, but I have no future in them, I may get good with select techniques, but I won't ever have the body of information that Earthdragon was talking about. My sifu's master won't teach him anymore so I am SOL.

Does anybody know of a teacher that wants to tip their hand a little and has lots of public info? One that might take me as an inner gate disciple? I'm sick of hitting a glass cieling in the arts. Anyone know of a great sifu? ONe that is fearfull of their art dying out so they want to teach it all? There has to be some awesome, but obscure style in china. Cotton Palm fist, something non wushu, especially if its dually influenced by shaolin and wu dan and has shuai chiao. Yeah, my standards are too high, I should look on the bright side, I know more than many TKD blackbelts.

[DarkKnight]

Knifefighter,
Shuai-chiao dosn't have any submissions. Only breaks and destructions. If a SC man is standing and his opponent
is down (from a throw usually) the immeadiate response is to attack downed man. There are alot of stomps to the weakest points of the leg and arms. There are alot of very sudden and violent techniques that facilitate the disengagement.
BJJ is much more gentile. You don't have to seriously hurt someone inorder to defeat them.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those people that think my art is so deadly I dare not unleash it on unsuspecting humanity. I know that all arts have their weaknesses and any system can be beat. I suppose it all comes down to one's mentality and personal choice. The mentality of SC and many of its techniques is to kill or cripple. I don't know if I would take this mentality into a ring. The style does not have a merciful element built into it's structure. I nick-named my vision of SC 'demon fighting' because that's what it reminds of. Compare it to a Kali master with nothing but a knife against twenty men.
BJJ was created for defense and is perfect for the ring. It will literally save your life and is the very definition of a self-defense system.

[Knifefighter]

Thanks for the response. By the way with whom to you train your BJJ?

[DarkKnight]

Pedro Sauer.

[Knifefighter]

Pedro is awesome. He turns out some of the best BJJ fighters out there.

[CrushingFist]

why don't you email me and we can talk. by the way, it's PREEEEETY tought to find anyone to just teach u the 108 strait up, it all depend son how hard you work and what kind of effort you show..
but anyways, lets talk, email me at
Shiroi_tori@hotmail.com

maybe i can help u out iwth some stuff.

[SomeGuy]

All this talk about Shuai Jiao makes me wanna learn it. Although I already really wanted to before I read all the posts. Does anyone know of any good affordable Shuai Jiao Schools in New York City? I already know of the Natural Chines Martial Arts school run by Lin Chih-Young (David Lin). Although I've heard bad things about him and his prices are a bit too expensive for me anyway.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'd check to see if Jeng Hsing Peng has any students left in New York.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[falconer]

For an instructor in NYC, I'd look for Junior Gonzalez (forgive my incorrect spelling). He is a student of Jeng Hsing Peng and is still teaching at Jeng's old school if I'm not mistaken.

[SomeGuy]

Thanks for the info. Do you or anyone else know the address or phone number of Junior Gonzalez's school? How can I contact him?

[EARTH DRAGON]

try www.yellowpages.com (http://www.yellowpages.com) it will give you the listings of any where in the US it all you need!

http://www.kungfuUSA.net