new language

[bennyvt]

I have had this problem with many postings. The fact that most are in chinese. I find it strange that if you translate the moves of ving tsun it usuakky means , palm up hand, hook hand etc, now it is more universal it would be easier to just describe the move as to what it does. I think people woule find it more simple and easier to understand.I know in my school we have certain moves that we call different thing to different lineages. IE stepping. In our school we class that as the drill in poon sao (rooling hands) where you step 45 degrees into the opponent. Some class that as the step forward which we would class as a shuffle forward. It would be great if people could come up with a universal way of describing the moves.Funny story. My teacher was talking to gwok Fu (I should probaly class as sifu or Si ging but I am bad at that sort of stuff). One of my fellow student rang him and asked if Sifu Gwok Fu could tell him the names of the moves in Chum Kiu. My teacher was talking to him and said " who cares". Gwok Fu heard him talking on the phone and picked up the " Chum Kiu". When asked BIll said what his student had asked. When he heard it Gwok Fu said" it doesn't matter what the mane is as long as you can do it. Bill laughed and said that was what he thought, and he explain that his student (me) used to call the move in chum kiu ( After the upsetting pu8nch, or punch after the bongsao to defend the grab and punch, its in the first section after the pivot and bong sao) as the turning Wu lap. When Gwok Fu asked he explained that after the upsetting punch this move was a combination of a Wu sao while pivoting which chatches the hand and a movement that feels like a lap sao( which a would now call more like a Jut sao but at the time I was only training for 3-4 yrss) as the movemnet involves catching the punch with a Wu sao but then pivoting ti regain the centre and a down and inward movement that will " Jerk" the opponent.
The thing is if the chinese translation is just a describtion of the move why not just call it the lp Sao, pulling hand: Jut sao, jerk hand, kwan sao, palm up han and a wing arm etc.
Even if you dont agree a simple describtion of the move wouold help every one when it comes to understanding what you say.

[bennyvt]

really sorry about the spelling but I am typining the dark as I post when my kids are asleep. But I hope you get the point.

[k gledhill]

Say that again :D

[Matrix]

Even if you dont agree a simple describtion of the move wouold help every one when it comes to understanding what you say.Bennyvt,
Names help us in that they provide us with a common term to use to identify something. However, the name is merely a label. The word has a limited ability to fully describe what is happening in a dynamic situation. I also think the meaning of the phrase changes over time as the student develops a deeper understanding of what is happening. Of course it's important to have common terminology so that we discuss things, but to expect 'universal terminology' is not realistic, IMO, because the understanding of the same terms varies. For example, we all use the term chi sao. To some people it is a drill to develop sensivity and timing etc, and to others it is a fanasty-based waste of time. Same word, completely different meaning. Even when you have a few people who agreed that it's the former, as opposed to the later, the diffence in what they do within the context of chi sao is different - check it out on youtube.

All this to say that the name is not the important thing. Although I like the chinese terms, it's mainly because that's what I'm used to. To say a tan sau is a palm-up hand sounds too limiting, but it's just a name in either case.

Bill

[Ali. R]

Bennyvt,
Names help us in that they provide us with a common term to use to identify something. However, the name is merely a label. The word has a limited ability to fully describe what is happening in a dynamic situation. I also think the meaning of the phrase changes over time as the student develops a deeper understanding of what is happening. Of course it's important to have common terminology so that we discuss things, but to expect 'universal terminology' is not realistic, IMO, because the understanding of the same terms varies. For example, we all use the term chi sao. To some people it is a drill to develop sensivity and timing etc, and to others it is a fanasty-based waste of time. Same word, completely different meaning. Even when you have a few people who agreed that it's the former, as opposed to the later, the diffence in what they do within the context of chi sao is different - check it out on youtube.

All this to say that the name is not the important thing. Although I like the chinese terms, it's mainly because that's what I'm used to. To say a tan sau is a palm-up hand sounds too limiting, but it's just a name in either case.

Bill


Oh MAN! I love it, when people think before they write, it really makes good reading… :D


Take care


Ali Rahim.

[Matrix]

Oh MAN! I love it, when people think before they write, it really makes good reading… :D
Ali,
Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it. :cool:
Bill

[Liddel]

Although to some it may seem over the top dont you think the fewer words the better when describing actions, so as not to get to bogged down in terminology.

Palm up wing arm = 4 words.
Kwan sao or just plain Kwan = is quicker and easier IMO.

The other thing is, VT is a Chinesse art take it or leave it. if you have an issue with terms go box. :rolleyes:

Here's a quick list -

Jum Sao
Biu Sao
Lan Sao & karp Jarn
Fut Sao
Tok Sao
Palm strikes (jeung Da ?)
Lan Sao
Corner punch
Fut Sao
Jum Sao
Tut Sao
Huen Sao sao Kuen.

Just the actions from my first section CK.

Now write your own list in english and see how convoluted it gets describing all the actions in terms of what they do :rolleyes:

IMO it would be more confusing......but thats just me :)


to expect 'universal terminology' is not realistic, IMO, because the understanding of the same terms varies

Matrix is spot on IMO. You only have to hang here on the forum to see that.

Many people refer to Chi Sao (sticking hands) when they mean Chi Dan Sao (single sticking hands) even people such as Ali write Chi DON Sao which very few others use. But we still know what hes on about when he writes it......

I think the termonology is as close as its going to get at this point in time, the main thing IMO is that we all have experience using it in a fighting context so that experience can be our common denominator to back up the terms in discussions like we have here.

DREW

[couch]

To say a tan sau is a palm-up hand sounds too limiting, but it's just a name in either case.

Bill

I agree. I like David Peterson's explanation that the names of techniques are verbs. So I personally like 'Dispersing Hand' for Tan Sau. :cool:

[Matrix]

Many people refer to Chi Sao (sticking hands) when they mean Chi Dan Sao (single sticking hands) even people such as Ali write Chi DON Sao which very few others use. But we still know what hes on about when he writes it......Hey DREW,
I think we can chalk that up to romanization. The fact that we 'understand' the meaning in either case, shows that the terms are doing what they are meant to do. So the need for a new language is not necessary. It's also worth noting that even within the chinese language there are different dialects which may affect the sound of the terms, as well as potentially adding some regional terminoligies to the mix.

I also agree with your point that less is more, and the Kwan example is spot on.


I like David Peterson's explanation that the names of techniques are verbs. So I personally like 'Dispersing Hand' for Tan Sau. Well David Peterson has a level of understanding that far exceeds mine. I think his explanations are well worth considering.

Bill

[unkokusai]

The other thing is, VT is a Chinesse art take it or leave it. if you have an issue with terms go box. :rolleyes:




So you would say that learning Chinese is a requirement for learning VT?

[LoneTiger108]

I think the termonology is as close as its going to get at this point in time, the main thing IMO is that we all have experience using it in a fighting context so that experience can be our common denominator to back up the terms in discussions like we have here.

I guess I'd be excluded here then Drew! Having never 'used' my Chun to do damage to anyone!

As you and others know already, this is my kinda subject as I learnt in this way (language FIRST!) It's interesting that Benny is looking for that 'list of terms' that can link and unify us all. The thing is, it's just never going to happen! With our minds being furnished with forever more lavish language I feel we will lose that 'Cantonese' mix we got used to back in the day. The mainland is moving and we're surrounded by Mandarin terms in Wing Chun (Yong Chun!)

To me, it doesn't really matter as I can read most of my curriculums and I know the characters have no differences unlike the spoken words. I would love to see unity in WCK, but sometimes I think that unity still needs great leaders and we lack great leaders!!

[chusauli]

If I have to learn Latin, Greek, and English for over 2000 Chinese herbs and learn how to pronounce them in Mandarin and Cantonese for the suppliers, then the least people could do for WCK is learn romanized Cantonese terms... :)

But seriously, all fields of study have their terminology... why should WCK be any different?

[k gledhill]

the terminology of the system according to wsl /pb/me ;

'lin sil di da ' is a concept overriding everything we are trying to achieve in vt training, it means attack/deflect in the same action
done properly we have 4 actions working at the same time striking and deflecting with alternating attacking arms using tan sao
and jumsao positions trained from the beginning in little/young idea ....... Siu nim tao


Siu Nim Tau - (First Form) "Young Idea" the centerline and our elbows relative to it. facing squarely, so both arms can reach the target from a flank

Cham Kiu - (Second Form) "Seeking/Finding The Bridge" *Fighting on the easiest way and straight to the target , flanking maneuvers

Biu Ji - (Third Form) "Pointing Fingers" * Looking for the easiest way to survive* lead with the hands not the head , our own elbow is trapped and how to recover it , escapes...

Muk Yan Jong - "Wooden Dummy" Form , Elbow training , Lin sil di da , Timing positions ,

Luk Dim Boon Gwan - "6.5 Point Pole" Form ,* 6 strikes [1 leaves a 1/2 mark] ballistic actions in pole & tactics applied to hand fighting

Baat Jaam Do - "bat=Eight / jaam= Slashing/ do= Knives" Form *Easiest way to fight against any other weapon (except firearms)* bat has nothing to do with the knives it is thought to be 8 meaning 'lucky' 8 has a significant meaning in chinese , very good.

Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma - "Character Two Goat Gripping (Basic) Stance" *Force, Support , Conditioning of Foot pos. balance*

Dui Gok Ma - "Side-facing Stance" *for cleaning the center - 50% less work* our pre fighting posture to 'sweep the zone' as we attack using [lin sil di dar]

Juen Ma - "Pivoting/Turning Footwork" *for using Hip elbow simultaneously* as chum kil to develop our balance/force/axis point as we hit

Seung Ma - "Forward Attacking Footwork" *special work to create structure* 1/2 step to stalk the prey

Tui Ma - " (Side-stepping) Footwork in chisao" *special work to create structure and attacking/counterattacking positions

Yat Ji Kuen - "Sun-character (Basic Vertical) Fist/Punch" * a punch *

Tan Sau - "elbow in from outside" training improvement for the elbow prior to punching with the same arm [lin sil di da concept=simultaneous attack and deflect] , when the elbow leaves the centerline we punch

Jum Sau - "elbow in from inside ", using the inner forearm [with pectoralis major ] [lin sil di da concept=simultaneous attack and deflect]

['combine tan&jum attacking the sides/flank of our opponent and we have two arms capable of fighting 1 arm on the flank using [lin sil di da]'

use wu sao as a rear guard with either, prior to attack....]

Fook Sau - "training improvement for the elbow*chi sao , maintaining center with elbow neutral

Bong Sau - "Upper-arm" *part of an attack - improvement for the elbow rotation speed, clearing a path if an arm comes over the arm

Wu Sau - "Guarding-hand" part of an attack - improvement for the "next hit" hand pos.striking a clearing using lin sil di dar action

Huen Sau - "Circling-hand" *part of an attack - improvement for the wrist rotation speed* combined with lowering forearm [cutting down] or manipulation

Paak Sau - "Slapping-hand" part of an attack - improvement for small hand moves* .

Jing Jeung - "Standing (vertical) Palm-strike" improvement for the elbow (relaxed hand)* for striking inside an arm and attacking

Waang Jeung - "Lying (horizontal) Palm-strike"* ** improvement for the elbow (relaxed hand)*

Soh Sau - "Pressing Palm" part of an attack - aka GUMSAO improvement for the "next hit" hand pos.*

Fak Sau - "Whisking/Whipping Hand" Attack * improvement for the elbow*

Lan Sau - "Barrier-arm" *improvement for the elbow*

Jut Sau - "Jerking/Dragging/Obstructing-hand" *part of an attack - improvement for the "next hit" hand pos.*

Biu Sau - "Thrusting/Spearing-hand" Attack * ** improvement for the elbow (relaxed hand)*

the arm straight down & up in slt....
Naat Sau - "Pressing-down/Extinguishing" - improvement for the elbow* on centerline
Daan Sau - "Rebounding-hand" - .improvement for the elbow*

Gaan Sau - "Splitting/Dividing-hand" Deflection* part of an attack for low use

Che Jeung - "Slanting/Descending Palm-strike" *improvement for the (low) elbow*

Dai Jeung - "Underneath/Lifting-palm"

Senk Sau - "Scraping/Shaving-hand" the sliding hands action in slt to strike and recover the wusao simultaneously

Dang Geuk - "Ascending (Basic Heel) Kick" *a Kick from a to b

Chi Sau - "Sticky-hands" Exercise *the all over structure building process*

Chi Geuk - "Sticky-legs" Exercise * funny misunderstanding NO STICKY LEG

Luk Sau/Poon Sau - "Rolling-hands" *the all over structure building process*

Daan (Chi) Sau - "Single-hand" *improvement for the elbow* becomes redundant use of 2 actions jum & punch as they become 1 action in fighting
using lin sil di dar

Seung (Chi) Sau - "Double-hand" *improvement for the elbow*

Gwoh Sau - "Free-attack" *the all over structure using process*

Laap Sau - "Warding-off/Deflecting-hands" Exercise *improvement for the elbow*

Lat Sau Jik Chung - "Constant Forward Springy-energy" Concept * no spring energy - just power from the whole body training*

Chiu Ying - "Square-on/Facing" Concept * SLT

Jui Ying - "Chasing" Concept


it all boils down to attacking as the defense, everything is built on the next to help that idea.....in chi sao we are partners for a common goal , not combatants.

[anerlich]

I think we're pretty well stuck with the terminology.

It would be a mistake to assume that facility with terminology is anywhere near as important as being able to do it against a resisting opponent.

Matt Thornton has written at length on the potential role of exeotic terminology in the encouragement of insularity and cultish behaviour and attitudes.

That said, the situation's not a lot better in many other fields. BJJ has strange sounding names for many techniques, with its Brazilian Portuguese origins playing a minor role. Arguably this is a necessity - the description of some moves in purely physical terms would take several paragraphs. Examples:

Crucifix, stocks, spider guard, quarter guard, X guard, Z guard, De la riva Guard, Roleta sweep, heart attack choke, Brabo and D'arce chokes, twister, banana split, knee exploder, crotch ripper, ....

And there is confusion:

Terms such as Butterfly Guard and Helicopter Sweep means different things to different BJJ groups. You have different terms for the same moves used by different people:

Basic Sweep / Scissor Sweep
Reverse Basic Sweep / Wing Sweep
Leg Grab Rollover sweep / Flower Sweep
Spinning choke / Baseball bat choke

etc.

Some like Eddie Bravo come up with really weird names with obfuscation as an intentional goal, so that they can use then while coaching in competition without the opposition knowing WTF they are on about, e.g.

Old School, Plan B, The Exhumer, Crackhead control, Retard Control, New York, Night of the Living Dead, Dogfight, Jiu Claw, Kung Fu Move, etc.

WC is hardly unique. Even outside MA, like in IT, there are all sorts of jargon and terminological differences, even wars.

[chusauli]

What the meaning of Sau is actually short for Kiu Sau (bridge arm). It doesn't mean the hand - it means the bridge in contact with another bridge.

[k gledhill]

Sao would apply the same as tan arm , jum arm ...nothing to do with the hand.
Simply names for differentiating one striking side of the forearm from the other, but the same arm ....for elbow reference in training .
Strike with a tan elbow , the tan arm becomes a strike as the elbow spreads off the line .
Strike with the same arm but on the other side of an attack using the pec to keep the elbow JUM , inwards as it strikes ...the tan role given to the other arm relative to the fight. Not Tan & a DA but tan is the da ....not jum & a DA but jum is the da :D confused !?

[bennyvt]

i UNDERSTAND THAT ACTUALLY MAKING A UNIVERSAL LANUAGE is not possible. I just mean that some posts tend to be full of chinese names when it gets very confusing.
The point about it being chinese so deal with it is a pretty stupid coment i think. I obviously know this. does that mean I should eat chinese food as I dont know the chinese names?
I remember in judo I had to learn the names to get the belts, I have always had a problem with this, why learn a new lanuage when you only need the movement and an explanation of what is does etc.
I just mean that a general describtion would help us that don't know the exact terms. Obviously tan sao, etc are pretty normal but even my teachers teacher calls things different names but we can look and see what he is talking about.
:p

[LoneTiger108]

I agree that its impossible to find a common language with all the different dialects etc, but the written word is so important. I liked the Dave P quote about using 'verbs' to gain better understanding, but any dictionary will give variations.

The terminologies have already been rewritten so many times with differing romanizations and I agree these can be treated in the same terms as the BJJ camps do with theirs. Common English terms make sense to the beginner.

But what about later down the line? What if your goal is to teach? For me personally, it's a different ball game. At The Academy we highlight loose techniques with the aid of a numbering system for beginners, but if any choose an apprenticeship then study of what this or that number actually is in Chinese is expected.

The hardest thing for WCK people is the fact that the system (not style) relies on specifics, theories etc and these are more complex and mostly take the form of a 'verse' or rythmic song. My Sifu seemed to specialise in that sort of thing so I guess I was lucky to have heard some things...

The most common Lee Shing Family method is his salutation called 'Charp Jeurng Gwar Kuen' - a threading palm and hanging fist (which also translates as foreseeing fist) You will see this movement in any Lee Shing form, done prior to the familiar cross-arm.

The term CJGK is definately universal to Lee Shing Family, but I've seen it all over the place in other arts. It was told that it was this move which influenced the development of Lap Sau.

[Matrix]

i UNDERSTAND THAT ACTUALLY MAKING A UNIVERSAL LANUAGE is not possible. I just mean that some posts tend to be full of chinese names when it gets very confusing.
If you go to a forum that discusses computers, for example, they will use terminology that is specific to that technology. You must learn the lingo over time to get the full understanding of what is being discussed. This is no different. Don't think of the terms as being "chinese" - even though they are. Think of them as the language of th art you are studying.
If you were training in MMA you would need to learn terms like "kamura". Even if the word label was in english, e.g., such as arm-bar. What does that mean in the fulllest sense of the word? The term arm-bar tells you very little about what's happening. It's a label, a mere sign post that points to something. It is a finger pointing to the moon, and you need to stop staring at the finger.

Cheers,
Bill

[unkokusai]

It is a finger pointing to the moon, and you need to stop staring at the finger.

Cheers,
Bill






Anyone using that cliche should be immediately shipped to Gitmo.

[Matrix]

Anyone using that cliche should be immediately shipped to Gitmo.
You call it cliche, I call it classic.
But if the cliche fits, use it. ;)

Bill

[unkokusai]

Ooooh! Now tell me to "be like water" or "empty the cup" or "a watched pot never boils" or "a stitch in time saves nine"... :rolleyes:

[Matrix]

Ooooh! Now tell me to "be like water" or "empty the cup" or "a watched pot never boils" or "a stitch in time saves nine"... :rolleyes:
Now you're getting the hang of it. Good job. :)

[Liddel]

So you would say that learning Chinese is a requirement for learning VT?

Yes, in the sence that you should learn the terms in VT which are chinesse not the entire language. Its cantonesse for HK / Ip Man VT.

You can learn as you go...


The point about it being chinese so deal with it is a pretty stupid coment i think. I obviously know this.

I dont think it was stupid Benny, more pragmatic.... but fair comment.

What i meant was this is the way it is and changing it is only going to serve the same purpose as the existing terms or make it more complicated....

It will only make it easier for the individual that changes it to what they want, everyone else will suffer :rolleyes:

Spencer wrote -

I guess I'd be excluded here then Drew! Having never 'used' my Chun to do damage to anyone!

Not even in a sparring context ?
Not even in shadow sparring or envisaging applying actions when you do forms ?

Perhaps i should have said 'in application' rather than 'in fighting' thats a little more broad :D


Chisauli said it best -

But seriously, all fields of study have their terminology... why should WCK be any different?

It shouldnt, lets relate it to something universal.... :rolleyes:

When learning to drive and your teacher/instructor wants you to stop. Would it be better to say hit the stop peddal or hit the break ?
Push the gearbox disengage from the driveshaft pedal or just push in the clutch ?
Slightly ludicrous but you get my point....

It all comes down to how much you know, if you cant follow the terms of VT here in a discussion forum just ask..someone will expand on it and wala you've learnt something and thats the end of it. Ive asked my Sifu about many terms used here over the years and after explanation its only made me more aware of things. Its a positive IMHO.

DREW

[unkokusai]

Yes, in the sence that you should learn the terms in VT which are chinesse not the entire language.



So would you require Chinese people learning to box to use only Enlish terms?

[Matrix]

So would you require Chinese people learning to box to use only Enlish terms?Only the cliches. ;)

[Wilson]

You teach in English if that's what your students speak...your going to explain the exercise anyway...

...I would "require" Chinese speakers to "jab"...whatever that word is in Chinese...

[Liddel]

So would you require Chinese people learning to box to use only Enlish terms?

Mate im an open minded person. If im teaching them yes, if they ask for another way then im open to suggestions.

If they want to converse on a forum about boxing with other boxers then they better learn the english way.

Its just they way i am. :o.

Even if your an experienced SAS soldier and want to join the french foreign legion sorry your s h i t out of luck....you've gotta learn french if you dont know it already...

:cool:
DREW

[unkokusai]

Mate im an open minded person. If im teaching them yes,


Would it affect their ability to box?

[Phil Redmond]

I agree. I like David Peterson's explanation that the names of techniques are verbs. So I personally like 'Dispersing Hand' for Tan Sau. :cool:
He's right. Tan means "disperse" or "spread" just like the action used in the first form. Fook/Fuhk means control/subdue like a cannine does when controlling the neck of another cannine. The character for fuhk depicts and man standing over/controlling a dog.

[Liddel]

This discussion is more philosophical than anything IMO, cause it can apply to many things....


Would it affect their ability to box?

- it depends on the person. Some people thrive with lots of information to back up what they are doing, others drown :rolleyes: its case by case.

Not having a common language is one thing with regard to learning, the thread is about Nouns, the names of actions and romanising them.... is it not ?

This is another thing altogether IMO. Especially with a language that has many meanings for one character or name.

Benny followed by expanding on his OP -


I remember in judo I had to learn the names to get the belts, I have always had a problem with this, why learn a new lanuage when you only need the movement and an explanation of what is does etc.

Your not learning a new language your learning the NAMES which are NOUNS and even between different languages names for the most part remain the same.

As one example - English is filled with french NOUNS and PHRASES for things that we dont change... think about it.... people that dont even know french use these terms.

My opinion is only based on the fact the terms have already been established.

Look at it another way, are you the type of person that goes on holiday to foreign speaking country expecting locals to speak english or do you study up on the language and/or take a translation book with you ?

DREW

[Matrix]

- English is filled with french NOUNS and PHRASES for things that we dont change... think about it.... people that dont even know french use these terms.
Do you mean words like "cliché"? ;)

Don't you think would be apropos.

Bill

[Liddel]

I could think of tonnes of examples. I work in TV News, we're all sticklers for getting Nouns right on air. Although outside of work is another story....LOL

For the most part its really annoying !

Watch your local News channels there seems to be many out there still calling Myanmar Burma and even those that call it Myanmar say it several different ways.

Persians pronounce "I" as "E" so one should say E RAQ although bush and his buddies always say EYE RAQ. LOL.

Nouns are nouns and theres only one way to skin that cat IMO :o
Take it or leave it.

Theres enough issue out there at the moment without throwing VT vernacular in the mix :)

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

Look at it another way, are you the type of person that goes on holiday to foreign speaking country expecting locals to speak english or do you study up on the language and/or take a translation book with you ?

Its funny Drew that you hit the nail on the head again here!

Wing Chun is an art from China, although most of us westerners received the Hong Kong branded version before we even knew about other connections. We generally use Cantonese terms for everything, even if our own pronounciation will vary, so 'theoretically' having a universal lingo should be possible.

But I stand by my point. It's not. And the hard thing for me is if we can not even agree on terms/nouns/names for things how are we going to link our principles and theories? (which would obviously be in Chinese too!)

If we can't agree how to spell/translate a tan sau or differentiate from a jarng how can we dream of understanding what we represent as Wing Chun students today if we don't want to learn a little culture??

I know a great Cantonese teacher in London, and he has always got WCK students and Sifus learning from him, especially if they're heading to HK to meet the Ip Family! A little conversation goes a long way, so I'm told...