New David P Mag article

[Ernie]

http://www.combat-journal.com/site/awdep.asp?dealer=6246&depnum=25570

enjoy

Ps. no cracks about the ''Sifu'' tag dropped on me [ inside joke ] Phil:D

[couch]

http://www.combat-journal.com/site/awdep.asp?dealer=6246&depnum=25570

enjoy

Ps. no cracks about the ''Sifu'' tag dropped on me [ inside joke ] Phil:D

SELLOUT!

LOL

[sanjuro_ronin]

Excellent article, I really likes his views and ideas.
Thanks for posting.

[k gledhill]

Always a good source of info, btw I met Chu Hok Yin in London years back and did some hands on with him , Like DP said in the article, his strikes are very powerful ,eye opening . He would do throat grabs in chi-sao training , saying "I took your throat" :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Always a good source of info, btw I met Chu Hok Yin in London years back and did some hands on with him , Like DP said in the article, his strikes are very powerful ,eye opening . He would do throat grabs in chi-sao training , saying "I took your throat" :eek:

Bah, he's got nothing on Patric Swayze.
:D

[k gledhill]

Id rather fight Swayze ;) than Yin:D

[Ernie]

SELLOUT!

LOL

Never happen ,,,, I'll keep it ghetto to end :D

[couch]

Never happen ,,,, I'll keep it ghetto to end :D

Yes. This is conveyed through your elegant blend of Wing Chun and hip-hop videos.

KRS-One, Rock On!

:cool:

Our family has something like that, too. But just a little more hardcore on the music end of things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y1z8mU7WbQ

LOL

[Ernie]

Yes. This is conveyed through your elegant blend of Wing Chun and hip-hop videos.

KRS-One, Rock On!

:cool:

Our family has something like that, too. But just a little more hardcore on the music end of things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y1z8mU7WbQ

LOL

many moons ago in a different life time back in NY i got '' pass the mic'' on stage with KRS and quite a few others ... but that's whole other story LOL

I'm not really feeling the '' dirty dirty '' south sound ,,, a little to ''country'' for me

I prefer old school when cats were creative with there lyrics ,,, no luv for the ''bling bling era '' ova hear :cool:

[couch]

many moons ago in a different life time back in NY i got '' pass the mic'' on stage with KRS and quite a few others ... but that's whole other story LOL

I'm not really feeling the '' dirty dirty '' south sound ,,, a little to ''country'' for me

I prefer old school when cats were creative with there lyrics ,,, no luv for the ''bling bling era '' ova hear :cool:

Well, officially, I think this thread has gone off topic.

I, too, prefer more of an underground sound: Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Scram Jones, KRS, Dilated Peoples, High & Mighty. Maybe if I just said Rawkus Records, plus some other stuff - that might sum it up!

On another note, I find this in the article interesting. Would you (or David, et al) like to elaborate:
"Our own WSLVT Family is often criticized for being “too aggressive” and not following the “traditional path” because we are prepared to adapt the art and train for realism and combat proficiency. The truth is that they are trapped in a time warp, thinking that old must be good, when we are in fact living in a changing environment that requires us to think in and apply concepts, not blindly try to use set sequences and routines. Wing Chun/Ving Tsun is a dynamic, flexible, adaptable and very effective means of personal combat, so long as its practitioners are able to look beyond egos and fixed ideas about fighting."

The first sentence I find interesting. How do you feel (in what way) that the WSL family is more aggressive? (Not starting a comparison war, just want to hear about this).

Best,
Kenton

[sanjuro_ronin]

To add to what Couch is asking I was wondering what kind, if you do any at all, of "cross system" fighting do you do?

[couch]

To add to what Couch is asking I was wondering what kind, if you do any at all, of "cross system" fighting do you do?

Not to answer for the WSLVT camp, but I think they were talking about mixing it up (sparring/fighting/exchanging) with different martial arts.

If this isn't what you mean, my apologies.

[k gledhill]

Attacking someone is the defense...thats as aggressive as you get :D how to go about delivering that attack is the what the system is trying to give us.

Ask yourself " how good is my attack today ?" hmmm let me think SLAP !!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not to answer for the WSLVT camp, but I think they were talking about mixing it up (sparring/fighting/exchanging) with different martial arts.

If this isn't what you mean, my apologies.

Its what I meant, yes, thank you.

[Ernie]

To add to what Couch is asking I was wondering what kind, if you do any at all, of "cross system" fighting do you do?

It's really up to the individual and how much there willing to put on the line for there growth and to what level ..

I try not to be linage specific ,,, as there are many skilled people from all walks of life .

so i can only speak for myself and they guys i have trained with and they way i train people .

before VT i had a boxing / kick boxing / thai / Savate and FMA back ground
so all through my late 20's and 30's i sparred very often a few times a week on average ... now that i'm crackin 40 ,, I'm trying to respect my body so besides VT just occasional light sparring for timing and tons of bag work and gym work for fitness

I find VT trained with the right mindset and '' honest '' expectations keeps me somewhat sharp and still evolving to certain degree [ sure if i was banging like i used to i would be better but injuries start to pile up and i found i enjoy being able to train more then being hurt and waiting to recover ]

Most of the guys that were good have all at the very least had a boxing back ground ,,

I try and bring this same work ethic to the people I train ,, and also pass on to them the importance of learning how to work with skilled people to help evolve your skill set and experience ,,, the key is '' work with ''

It seems common practice for the WSL guys i run into to get out and mix things up just to get a feel for how to adapt to live situations [ but i'm sure not all do this ]

[Ernie]

Well, officially, I think this thread has gone off topic.

I, too, prefer more of an underground sound: Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Scram Jones, KRS, Dilated Peoples, High & Mighty. Maybe if I just said Rawkus Records, plus some other stuff - that might sum it up!

On another note, I find this in the article interesting. Would you (or David, et al) like to elaborate:
"Our own WSLVT Family is often criticized for being “too aggressive” and not following the “traditional path” because we are prepared to adapt the art and train for realism and combat proficiency. The truth is that they are trapped in a time warp, thinking that old must be good, when we are in fact living in a changing environment that requires us to think in and apply concepts, not blindly try to use set sequences and routines. Wing Chun/Ving Tsun is a dynamic, flexible, adaptable and very effective means of personal combat, so long as its practitioners are able to look beyond egos and fixed ideas about fighting."

The first sentence I find interesting. How do you feel (in what way) that the WSL family is more aggressive? (Not starting a comparison war, just want to hear about this).

Best,
Kenton


Well I can not speak for David
but generally I find the WSL guys are more akin to bare knuckled boxers then chi sau wrestlers ,,,,

were striking [ not chasing hands or playing sticky hand games ] is the primary goal

the chi sau mentality is more about setting up hitting angles not just slap and touch and when i say hitting it's full body torque not just empty rapid punches
thus it comes off as very aggressive ... but like anything some guys do strange stuff so i try not to generalize

I have changed my ways to be more efficient as the years go by and look to improve my natural positioning Vs my athletic abilities to just force the line or the shot

maybe im just getting soft in my old age ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Comparing this interview with the Bayer one in another thread, it seems that David is a tad more "realistic" than Bayer.
He understands that importance of exposing yourself to different systems ( know thy enemy) and seems more open to what works and less "dogmatic".

[k gledhill]

Knowing Philipp I would say he means he doesn't have the time to train with the same intensity he does in his WSLVT in other methods :D
He has had real fights with 'grapplers/wrestlers' he has recounted to me and many with other guys in random 'events' , he speaks with insight to real fighting , not theory ;). btw he was tae kwon do champion of his weight division in his youth in Germany.
He trains EVERYDAY like he is going to have a fight at anytime...inspiring .
Plus he isnt into the sifu tag either , he got it from WSL. Very humble guy , nice manner about him. You would never know what he could 'unleash in a dogfight' .

His ability to put the WHOLE of the concepts/words into a tangible flow of attacking someone for REAL is his strength. Ive felt it :D
Its ironic you would say he sounds unrealistic :D trust me he is anything but.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Knowing Philipp I would say he means he doesn't have the time to train with the same intensity he does in his WSLVT in other methods :D
He has had real fights with 'grapplers/wrestlers' he has recounted to me and many with other guys in random 'events' , he speaks with insight to real fighting , not theory ;). btw he was tae kwon do champion of his weight division in his youth in Germany.
He trains EVERYDAY like he is going to have a fight at anytime...inspiring .
Plus he isnt into the sifu tag either , he got it from WSL. Very humble guy , nice manner about him. You would never know what he could 'unleash in a dogfight' .

His ability to put the WHOLE of the concepts/words into a tangible flow of attacking someone for REAL is his strength. Ive felt it :D
Its ironic you would say he sounds unrealistic :D trust me he is anything but.

Like I said, it SOUNDED/came off as unrealistic, but if he is like what you say, then he is my type of MA.
Though I don't agree with the whole "train everyday like you are gonna have a fight", even pro fighters cycle their training, but to each their own.

BTW, what does "REAL" fights with grapplers/wrestlers mean?

[k gledhill]

Not theorizing about fighting grapplers/wrestlers, he hit them for real to submission, bare handed [oooooh! the audience gasped] :D

He is a fighter with ability to show you the attacking ways WSL used.
Not standing like a pose and doing hand tag , he will stalk you down and finish you . cool stuff.
Less translating words or 'form bytes' can be used like this , more about applying a concept in full attacking action coupled with ALL the ideas working in unison for an end result ...very lucky for me I met him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Awesome, sounds like my type of guy :D

Now that we have cleared up what "hitting for real" is, I just have to find out what "fake hitting" is.

LOL !

[k gledhill]

fake hitting is 'talking' a guy into submission :D

example " I would sprawl to your shoot and ram your head down to the ground and kick you in the ribs as you tried to get up sucka ! :D

Arm chair fighting that escalates to 'nuclear war' in 30 seconds ...:D:D:D

[Ernie]

I learned long ago to not get all caught up in the stories of what people say people can do or even what certain gifted individuals can or can not pull off ,,

except for riding coat tails and passing on yet more stories it really means nothing in improving ones personal skills

it's better to have unbiased research of the training methods evaluate the information based on your own personal honest criteria , with no emotional investment [ the OMG i now see the light !!!]syndrome :)..
empowered convert of new VT religion is a dangerous and clouded mindset , it usually involves the projection of anger and disappointment of there previous ''religion '' being channeled into a zealots faith into there new VT religion

what some people this power and speed are others can walk right through it

It's all relative based on situation and expectation

we are easily impressed by a VT guy that can pull off a few things against this or that ''style '' because we expect so little because most suck so much :p

but if we walk into a pro boxing gym or any high caliber commenly pressure tested fighting environment

our expectations level goes way up so our perception of real hitting and real power and speed take on different meaning


it's all relative......

I have travelled around the world a bit and researched many VT methods .. and yet have not seen any one that really trains like the real fighters I have worked with outside of VT [ myself included ]

[ except those that are cross training and competing for certain events which involves a different mentality towards training training methods and the tools used for the event ]

this doesn't take away from guys that set a standard for the average guy . people who put in there daily training to keep there tools sharp just in case and for the shear joy of training ,,, but these people are not ''fighters''

but the term '' fighter or real fighter '' has been tossed around way to easily and has become a marketing tool


better to just focus on what you can really do and not get caught up in stories of this or that


feet planted firmly on the ground ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I learned long ago to not get all caught up in the stories of what people say people can do or even what certain gifted individuals can or can not pull off ,,

except for riding coat tails and passing on yet more stories it really means nothing in improving ones personal skills

it's better to have unbiased research of the training methods evaluate the information based on your own personal honest criteria , with no emotional investment [ the OMG i now see the light !!!]syndrome :)..
empowered convert of new VT religion is a dangerous and clouded mindset , it usually involves the projection of anger and disappointment of there previous ''religion '' being channeled into a zealots faith into there new VT religion

what some people this power and speed are others can walk right through it

It's all relative based on situation and expectation

we are easily impressed by a VT guy that can pull off a few things against this or that ''style '' because we expect so little because most suck so much :p

but if we walk into a pro boxing gym or any high caliber commenly pressure tested fighting environment

our expectations level goes way up so our perception of real hitting and real power and speed take on different meaning


it's all relative......

I have travelled around the world a bit and researched many VT methods .. and yet have not seen any one that really trains like the real fighters I have worked with outside of VT [ myself included ]

[ except those that are cross training and competing for certain events which involves a different mentality towards training training methods and the tools used for the event ]

this doesn't take away from guys that set a standard for the average guy . people who put in there daily training to keep there tools sharp just in case and for the shear joy of training ,,, but these people are not ''fighters''

but the term '' fighter or real fighter '' has been tossed around way to easily and has become a marketing tool


better to just focus on what you can really do and not get caught up in stories of this or that


feet planted firmly on the ground ;)

You make some excellent point there Ernie and not just WC related.
We can "judge" a system in one of two ways:
1) By what its elite can do
2) By what its everyday and average practioner can do.

Best bet for most is option 2.

[Ernie]

You make some excellent point there Ernie and not just WC related.
We can "judge" a system in one of two ways:
1) By what its elite can do
2) By what its everyday and average practioner can do.

Best bet for most is option 2.


Thanks man ,, and it has probably been one of the most '' refreshing '' and realistic ways of thinking that has creped into my very dense skull over the years

way to much hero worship or turning people into icons ,,, not enough honest self reflection ...

honest self assessment

and honest goals

;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks man ,, and it has probably been one of the most '' refreshing '' and realistic ways of thinking that has creped into my very dense skull over the years

way to much hero worship or turning people into icons ,,, not enough honest self reflection ...

honest self assessment

and honest goals

;)

True, now I know there were/are some freaks out there, I am one of them (:D), but we have to realize that they stick out for a reason, because they are exceptional.
Every system has them, every sport has them, they are that 1% that we "look up to" and there is nothing wrong with that, but realizim is crucial in what we do, it can be the difference between life and death in some cases.

[Ernie]

True, now I know there were/are some freaks out there, I am one of them (:D), but we have to realize that they stick out for a reason, because they are exceptional.
Every system has them, every sport has them, they are that 1% that we "look up to" and there is nothing wrong with that, but realizim is crucial in what we do, it can be the difference between life and death in some cases.

Freaks serve there purpose ,,,,,, they inspire us :D
but we should never get to caught up in there freakyness ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, it was probably because of this[what we are talking about] that many old time MA teachers had so few students but the ones they had were so good, they may have been that "1%", know what I mean?

MA were never for the "common man" and when they changed to accomodate the common man many didn't change and as such, become "ineffective".
Those that did adapt to the common man, usually sports, still had the elite and still were able to cater to the "average joe".

[Ernie]

You know, it was probably because of this[what we are talking about] that many old time MA teachers had so few students but the ones they had were so good, they may have been that "1%", know what I mean?

MA were never for the "common man" and when they changed to accomodate the common man many didn't change and as such, become "ineffective".
Those that did adapt to the common man, usually sports, still had the elite and still were able to cater to the "average joe".
could be that's why you need to not be caught up the person but in the method and over all results

I like to keep it based on body mechanics

what ever art I trained in be it Thai or my FMA or my boxing days

it was always a study of how to maximize efficacy through correct alignment and minimize drag through relaxed motion and increase nervous system burst for maximum power ..

base everything on the human frame ... not some imitation of this or that guy

the only thing is to fit it into your particular criteria

are you breaking down a Jab or a knife stroke and kick or a choke ...

it's why VT caught my attention simple body mechanics based on certain geometrical shapes to create natural leverage .. and nervous system impulse training for conditioned reactions [ developing habits to fit the training methods criteria , concepts and ideas ]

basic average Joe formula ... some will have genetic advantages some will just be mediocre but if the methods produce growth across the board then there worth investigating if not ,,, screw um !

[couch]

Freaks serve there purpose ,,,,,, they inspire us :D
but we should never get to caught up in there freakyness ;)

As I've said before in other threads: I want to be the fanatic. I also want to train with the fanatics. That's why (in my opinion - I know others who can make this work) I have really grown to love small group training.

I find the fanatics are few and far between and that's just fine with me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As I've said before in other threads: I want to be the fanatic. I also want to train with the fanatics. That's why (in my opinion - I know others who can make this work) I have really grown to love small group training.

I find the fanatics are few and far between and that's just fine with me.

Quite correct.
But I think you mean freaks, not fanatics.

[guy b.]

empowered convert of new VT religion is a dangerous and clouded mindset , it usually involves the projection of anger and disappointment of there previous ''religion '' being channeled into a zealots faith into there new VT religion

I thought this was a good post Ernie. Can I ask why do you think there are so many people like this in WSL wing chun? While WSL method is one of the better manifestations of wing chun, there is so much religious zealot behavior that it kind of puts me off. As you say, compare your Philip Bayer (or even Gary Lam, gasp) to a good professional boxer and you see the difference between a coach who can pass on the principles of a system and an actual fighter who can fight. Yet people are still idolising these men as if they are fighting supermen.

This is a real problem with wing chun and traditional martial arts in general- there are so few (if any) real fighters and so everything is distorted. Look at the previous posts where someone was so excited about a wing chun teacher fighting "grapplers" with his bare hands and beating then into submission. This is sad. It is hero worship and it doesn't help anything except the perpetuation of unrealistic expectations and failure.

[jesper]

There are plenty of fighters in WC community.
Its just that they are overshadowed by the huge amount of part time practitioners.

[couch]

I thought this was a good post Ernie. Can I ask why do you think there are so many people like this in WSL wing chun? While WSL method is one of the better manifestations of wing chun, there is so much religious zealot behavior that it kind of puts me off. As you say, compare your Philip Bayer (or even Gary Lam, gasp) to a good professional boxer and you see the difference between a coach who can pass on the principles of a system and an actual fighter who can fight. Yet people are still idolising these men as if they are fighting supermen.

This is a real problem with wing chun and traditional martial arts in general- there are so few (if any) real fighters and so everything is distorted. Look at the previous posts where someone was so excited about a wing chun teacher fighting "grapplers" with his bare hands and beating then into submission. This is sad. It is hero worship and it doesn't help anything except the perpetuation of unrealistic expectations and failure.

While you have a point, you also must recognize that some Traditional Martial Artists don't train for the street-fight, the sparring match, or to handle "grapplers." Some of them train the art to preserve the art, for fitness, stress relief and/or social engagement.

While this is not my MAIN goal for learning WC, nor the types of people I want to train with, I can see why others would want to learn a MA.

Like what has been said in other threads/conversations as of late about that 1%...that's all we need, honestly. If we didn't have all the 'laypeople,' the 'monks' wouldn't be able to eat. And that's okay. And remember, because of the internet and DVD media, we're able to see quite a few people from around the world - but what about the guy who doesn't cry the loudest? What about the instructor without internet presence who teaches in their basement. We'll never know about them...

Just some points...

[sanjuro_ronin]

While you have a point, you also must recognize that some Traditional Martial Artists don't train for the street-fight, the sparring match, or to handle "grapplers." Some of them train the art to preserve the art, for fitness, stress relief and/or social engagement.

One of the worse things to happen to MA in my view, and one of the best.

MA were never designed for those purposes and when they became to focus, something had to give and that something was more often than not, combat effectiveness.
Now, sport systems still keep that to a certain extent because they rely on constant testing in the from of either open competiton or closed competition, t even they are lacking in "cross system" training more often than not, something incidently that was very common and used a great deal in TMA BEFORE they went they way of the "pansy MA".
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Say that again, we get judged by the many :D not the few .

Judge not lest you be judged for the yard stick that you use to measure others is the one that will be used to measure you.

[k gledhill]

There are plenty of fighters in WC community.
Its just that they are overshadowed by the huge amount of part time practitioners.

you can say that again !:D

[k gledhill]

I thought this was a good post Ernie. Can I ask why do you think there are so many people like this in WSL wing chun? While WSL method is one of the better manifestations of wing chun, there is so much religious zealot behavior that it kind of puts me off. As you say, compare your Philip Bayer (or even Gary Lam, gasp) to a good professional boxer and you see the difference between a coach who can pass on the principles of a system and an actual fighter who can fight. Yet people are still idolising these men as if they are fighting supermen.

This is a real problem with wing chun and traditional martial arts in general- there are so few (if any) real fighters and so everything is distorted. Look at the previous posts where someone was so excited about a wing chun teacher fighting "grapplers" with his bare hands and beating then into submission. This is sad. It is hero worship and it doesn't help anything except the perpetuation of unrealistic expectations and failure.

Guy B that was me , but your taking it out of context . I was implying he [PB] has actually fought with MANY people on a regular basis. Not that yipeee he beat a 'grappler' isnt he wonderful :D

[guy b.]

Well it is a good thing that he's put his wing chun into practice, better than not.

However you are confused if you view someone like Philip Bayer (a coach), with actual fighters. It is a different game.

[k gledhill]

confused ? how so ? you mean PB isn't a fighter just a coach ?

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.combat-journal.com/site/awdep.asp?dealer=6246&depnum=25570

enjoy

Ps. no cracks about the ''Sifu'' tag dropped on me [ inside joke ] Phil:D
Hmmm, Sifu Ernie Barrios has a nice ring to it. ;)
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Never happen ,,,, I'll keep it ghetto to end :D
LOL, your last name translate to "neighborhoods" anyway. Now that's keeping it real.

[Ernie]

I thought this was a good post Ernie. Can I ask why do you think there are so many people like this in WSL wing chun? While WSL method is one of the better manifestations of wing chun, there is so much religious zealot behavior that it kind of puts me off. As you say, compare your Philip Bayer (or even Gary Lam, gasp) to a good professional boxer and you see the difference between a coach who can pass on the principles of a system and an actual fighter who can fight. Yet people are still idolising these men as if they are fighting supermen.

This is a real problem with wing chun and traditional martial arts in general- there are so few (if any) real fighters and so everything is distorted. Look at the previous posts where someone was so excited about a wing chun teacher fighting "grapplers" with his bare hands and beating then into submission. This is sad. It is hero worship and it doesn't help anything except the perpetuation of unrealistic expectations and failure.

I think Saturday morning kung fu theater is to blame !
People create the imagery and need for a '' master '' some cats happily fill the void
so the cycle continues
reality is most people [ most sane people ] don't ever want to fight
but love to embellish on pretend fighting

which is just fine ,, plenty of worse hobbies out there ... just gets strange when they mix it up and compare it to cats that really are professional fighters

or the ultimate marketing slogan .... my style is better then your style because my big toe points 2 degrees more to the left and it's the original style from a 2,000,000 year old saber tooth cave man monk

:D


Phil don't get me started haha



ALL

the difference between a '' real fighter '' some one who is currently fighting as a profession
and a '' coach '' some one who teaches the training methods of fighting based on there experience and research

only in the twisted world of kung fu fantasy do people expect there coaches to be ''fighters'' in there elderly years ..... of course because of there magic chi and great story telling skills

this would make an interesting topic of discussion .... something i had written articles on before ,,, never understood the confusion or superman iconic build up

;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

only in the twisted world of kung fu fantasy do people expect there coaches to be ''fighters'' in there elderly years ..... of course because of there magic chi and great story telling skills

Ernie has chi blasted to correct and gave it a turkish oil check !

[guy b.]

Ernie, I agree. It confuses the hell out of me. I've never been one for the old chop socky kung fu movies so maybe that's the reason.

WSL method I find a bit worse than some other wing chun in this respect, but most WC is pretty terrible on the hero worship side of things. It is good to like your teacher and to respect him, but to pretend a middle aged or old out of shape man is the equivalent of a current K1, UFC or boxing champion is sheer insanity. I find it embarrassing when adults have these kind of views.

There are good coaches and bad coaches. Appreciate your coach for what he is: a coach. He isn't and never was the master of the universe at fighting, but he might just have the ability to teach you a great kung fu method. It is two different things.

WSL himself, when he became famous and found lots of followers, was not a fighter. He was a coach. He had some real fight experience in the past which made him a rarity in wing chun, but his fighting days were over.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its very rare to find/be both a coach and a fighter, they tend to focus on the opposites.
Fighters must be selfish in their training and their "sharing".
Coaches must be selfless.

[guy b.]

confused ? how so ? you mean PB isn't a fighter just a coach ?

He's certainly a coach now due to his age and lack of regular fights against good opposition (other fighters). Fighters fight, coaches coach. Philip Bayer is a coach.

He may have been a fighter of some level at some point, although I haven't heard of him taking part in any big fights.

[k gledhill]

got it , just clarifying :D

[Dave P]

He's certainly a coach now due to his age and lack of regular fights against good opposition (other fighters). Fighters fight, coaches coach. Philip Bayer is a coach.

He may have been a fighter of some level at some point, although I haven't heard of him taking part in any big fights.

Well, you should try to keep up with him some day. :cool: Over 50, but still fight fit.... Have a look at his vid on his site: www.philippbayer.info He keeps his personal training at such a high level, so he's ready to take it up with anyone, at anytime... but by the way....for his students he's a very good coach.... But that's all because of his years of experience as a 'fighter' and teacher.

Ofcourse I understand what you mean. WSL was the best coach when he got older as he dedicated his training to teaching. Probably, near the end of his life, he was at the best coaching level. In the early years he 'used' his students to improve himself in fighting (ofcourse in a good way). I believe if you were his student by then, you would have a hard time...:-) As his experience grew he changed his teaching methods. But aren't we all doing that? Experience comes with age.

A fighter doesn't 'have' to take on big fights... But it helped WSL to improve his insights in fighting. To be a 'fighter', is a mentality... Are you ready to fight, but more important... are you willing to fight?

A funny quote of PhB of today... "It's the difference between this: You bump into a person in a bar. If he's just a small not really frightening looking person, you tell him: "Hey, watch out man, you're blocking my way..." but if he's a big frightening looking guy you'd probably say: "Excuse me, I'm sorry"

As long as you doubt yourself, you're not ready to fight. The nearest thing to train yourself for a real fight is to practice sparring. And maybe, if you have the chance and the guts to do it. Test it for real...

To close my post... PhB is definately a good and strategic fighter... And he does have numerous real (not games) fights on his record...