fighting a beginner

[Hitman]

Dear all,

According to Bruce Lee when you are fighting a beginner you have to very be careful, otherwise you may get hit.
Superfoot Bill wallace mentioned in one of his books that when he was visiting other karate schools in the 1960s, he had been nailed by beginners. However, he had never been hit by any black belts.
One of my colleagues told me that sometime a worst swordsman can kill the best swordsman.
My question is if you very well trained martial artist, how come sometime a beginner can hit you?

Thank you
Hitman

[rogue]

It partially has to do with the beginner but because you can become over confident and also narrow your idea of what an opponent will throw at you, you may get hit with a "bad" or "improper" technique. So far I've never seen it happen to someone advanced who has spent time sparring or fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Beginners are unorthodox and every so often their "non-picture perfect" technique gets in.
Does it hurt ? not really, but you still get nailed.
Sometimes its simply because you are going easy and, its not about under estimating your opponent, you don't fight the same way you fight an "equal".
I knew this yellow belt that could hit almost anyone with this wierd ass round kick he threw, it just came up, no snap or hip, just up, LOL !
Never hurt anyone but it was so unorthodox it hit almost everyone.

[David Jamieson]

anyone can hit anyone.

when fighting beginners, that we know are beginners, we tend to extend the utmost in courtesy and in doing so, we often leave the gate open.

Beginners, being enthusiastic as most are, will go after any opening they perceive.

You can't stop all the bugs from getting in your house in summertime. :)

[xcakid]

when fighting beginners, that we know are beginners, we tend to extend the utmost in courtesy and in doing so, we often leave the gate open.



100% aggree.


In somewhat similar take. Most, if not all, professional race car drivers, event the ones the only turn left(Memebers of Non Athletic Sport Centered Around Rednecks), will say that driving on the highway is scarier and more dangerous than driving on the race track at 200+mph.

[Judge Pen]

The elements of precision and control have not been fully developed by beginners. Fotunately neither has power and body mechanics.

[Eric Olson]

The elements of precision and control have not been fully developed by beginners. Fotunately neither has power and body mechanics.


Well said...

[1bad65]

The elements of precision and control have not been fully developed by beginners. Fotunately neither has power and body mechanics.

Or cardio and defense. Most new guys are easy to hit and tire fast. But yes, you have to be on your toes because they are very unorthodox.

[jdhowland]

According to Bruce Lee when you are fighting a beginner you have to very be careful, otherwise you may get hit.
Superfoot Bill wallace mentioned in one of his books that when he was visiting other karate schools in the 1960s, he had been nailed by beginners.

The question of why a beginner can hit you has been answered well enough. The next question might be-- Does it matter?

Depends on the situation. Look at the above examples. Sport karate in the 1960s was strenuous but well controlled (yes, i was there and i remember the 60s). Even "free fighting" was based on tagging the opponent rather than doing damage. If you are in a formal competition it means a lot that a beginner can win points against you even if he cannot hurt you. Bruce Lee's college roommate told me that Bruce had a "glass jaw" and it was amazingly easy to knock him out. Not hard to see why. Remember that long neck? Lee was aware of his Achilles' heel and tried to develop a personal fighting style that would ensure he would not get hit in the face. A "lucky shot" could take him out.

Barring handicaps and restricted contests, it shouldn't matter much to students of the fighting arts. You will hit and be hit. Nothing to fear.

On the other hand, i do fear the beginner with a blade or a firearm.





"Some have the speed and the right combinations. If you can't take the punches--it don't mean a thing." --Warren Zevon

[bodhitree]

I even find newer people to be difficult to deal with when grappling. More often than not experienced grapplers tend to be more relaxed and focused on technique, not muscling something, where a lot of big strong newbies muscle the hell out of things, and it's not easy to deal with.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I even find newer people to be difficult to deal with when grappling. More often than not experienced grapplers tend to be more relaxed and focused on technique, not muscling something, where a lot of big strong newbies muscle the hell out of things, and it's not easy to deal with.

Yeah, they tend to "*****" certain things like the forearm to the face or neck or some silly thing like that.

[DRAGONSIHING]

Often beginners will be experiencing an adrenalin rush, more experienced person not so. This leads to them moving faster and harder than even they think they are. Seen this happen with new students practising with high ranked students in the kwoon. Sometimes fun. LOL! Never under estimate anybody. :):D

[mawali]

For a striking and kicking art, it is inevitable!
The way how I (used to) teach CMA is from the grappling side because that is how most people try to control! They will ALWAYS grab unless you fall down with the first punch.

Beginners force you to adapt and be aware that anything can happen. In real life, anything can and will happen but can you get up and continue the struggle?

[1bad65]

I even find newer people to be difficult to deal with when grappling. More often than not experienced grapplers tend to be more relaxed and focused on technique, not muscling something, where a lot of big strong newbies muscle the hell out of things, and it's not easy to deal with.

Let them tire themselves out. Relax, then go for a sub or sweep when they tire out. I look at new guys as a chance to work my guard.


Yeah, they tend to "*****" certain things like the forearm to the face or neck or some silly thing like that.

Push it off and go for the head and arm choke.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Push it off and go for the head and arm choke.

Really ???
Wow, that's fascinating.
:p

[Pork Chop]

In addition to what's been said, noobs also tend to have no respect.
They think they've gotta "win" the sparring session.

you catch their leg on a round kick and put your leg on the back of their's to show that you could've swept them; then as soon as you release their leg back to them they start teeing off on you.

they ignore well-placed controlled shots to their head just to walk through it and unload on you.

they'll agree to "neck wrestle" and land cheap shots when you close distance to clinch.

they'll even resort to illegal blows just to "get one in" on you.

I tend to treat people on a baseball-like "strike" system.
They get 3 strikes and then I stop pulling.
Sometimes if the offense is egregious enough, i immediately stop pulling.

Punch me in the throat after I've gently given you back the kick i caught & the next time I'm sweeping the bottom leg above your head and laughing as your head bounces off the mat.

"Step through" my gently placed head kick to start blasting me while i'm off balance & the next time I'm dropping you with it (one of the reasons I stopped going to kung fu).

Launch kicks at me while I'm closing distance to engage our agreed upon neck wrestling, then I'm gonna catch one and toss you over my shoulder.

Hit me with something illegal out of frustration when I'm trying to work with you in a friendly manner and I don't become friendly anymore.

A lot of these instances are the reason I'm fed up with sparring on the whole.
I don't mind the cr@p getting kicked out of me by people who are better, but really tired of guys taking advantage of the situation when I'm being "nice".
Sick of "getting in trouble" just for defending myself.
Sick of dealing with bumps and bruises on my days off because someone didn't have the respect for me as a training partner not to try to injure me.
I guess you could be like the Miletech guys and just go all out all the time, but I think the drawbacks far outweigh the benefits (why spar so hard all the time if you get so banged up you can't workout?).

I know I whine about this situation way too much.

[1bad65]

In addition to what's been said, noobs also tend to have no respect.
They think they've gotta "win" the sparring session.

That's really it in most cases. I think it's not so much about respect though, they just worry about looking bad. An experienced guy is over that fear of looking bad.

[David Jamieson]

In addition to what's been said, noobs also tend to have no respect.
They think they've gotta "win" the sparring session.

you catch their leg on a round kick and put your leg on the back of their's to show that you could've swept them; then as soon as you release their leg back to them they start teeing off on you.

they ignore well-placed controlled shots to their head just to walk through it and unload on you.

they'll agree to "neck wrestle" and land cheap shots when you close distance to clinch.

they'll even resort to illegal blows just to "get one in" on you.

I tend to treat people on a baseball-like "strike" system.
They get 3 strikes and then I stop pulling.
Sometimes if the offense is egregious enough, i immediately stop pulling.

Punch me in the throat after I've gently given you back the kick i caught & the next time I'm sweeping the bottom leg above your head and laughing as your head bounces off the mat.

"Step through" my gently placed head kick to start blasting me while i'm off balance & the next time I'm dropping you with it (one of the reasons I stopped going to kung fu).

Launch kicks at me while I'm closing distance to engage our agreed upon neck wrestling, then I'm gonna catch one and toss you over my shoulder.

Hit me with something illegal out of frustration when I'm trying to work with you in a friendly manner and I don't become friendly anymore.

A lot of these instances are the reason I'm fed up with sparring on the whole.
I don't mind the cr@p getting kicked out of me by people who are better, but really tired of guys taking advantage of the situation when I'm being "nice".
Sick of "getting in trouble" just for defending myself.
Sick of dealing with bumps and bruises on my days off because someone didn't have the respect for me as a training partner not to try to injure me.
I guess you could be like the Miletech guys and just go all out all the time, but I think the drawbacks far outweigh the benefits (why spar so hard all the time if you get so banged up you can't workout?).

I know I whine about this situation way too much.

This is generally where you have the opportunity to give them some real learning. make em hurt...just a little and they'll bump hip eventually. If they continue, just keep upping the hurt. So, don't treat newbs to nice, I would promote showing them their weakness immediately and then work from there. Just so they know they are not the man on the floor with their attitude and hairstyle and winning smile.

You got to has da skeelz or you will be on da floor. huzzah. be nice about it though. :)

[冠木侍]

I agree about the courtesy issue. There would be nothing to prove by humiliating a person with less experience than you...heck someone who just started. Yes, you give light jabs and some solid *thumps* just to let them know they just got hit.

Pork Chop raises some good points but it sounds like he is just fed up with it all.

Beginners are unorthodox and overzealous. But another factor is that unlike those who have been training for a while, they lack the control (physically and mentally) that is necessary for safe sparring (safe but at an intensity level high enough to get a good workout and to test your skills and techniques). So of course, a good well timed (or lucky) hay-maker may find a target.

I think that is the bottom line. Even simple self defense moves where kicks to the knee are used, make sure your knee is bent.

Just like Pork Chop, if I feel that there is some sort of tom-foolery or they think this is their opportunity to pound on a higher rank, they will know that they made a mistake because I will make it clear...one way or another.

[NJM]

This is generally where you have the opportunity to give them some real learning. make em hurt...just a little and they'll bump hip eventually. If they continue, just keep upping the hurt. So, don't treat newbs to nice, I would promote showing them their weakness immediately and then work from there.
It's especially problematic when newbs come from a point-sparring background, like taekwondo. They don't realize that you don't actively block or avoid an attack that has no chance of inflicting damage (see ball of foot kick to thigh), but think they win by racking up "the points" with each contact.

[David Jamieson]

well, so then, do we have a concensus that showing them their weakness first is probably a good idea to set the tone?



:)

[The Willow Sword]

i tend to think that when you go up against a "beginner" persay, and you get hit, it is prolly because you have engrained yourself in the same routine that you become comfortable with it and in a sense you limit your potential. I mean come on, you spar the same people in class, you go over the same routines and forms over and over, Then some snot nosed kid comes in with no experience or maybe he does have some experience and does something different with you that you are not used to and BLOOP!! you get tagged.

That is why it is good to change things up in your routine and your style.

Peace,TWS

[Shaolin Wookie]

i tend to think that when you go up against a "beginner" persay, and you get hit, it is prolly because you have engrained yourself in the same routine that you become comfortable with it and in a sense you limit your potential. I mean come on, you spar the same people in class, you go over the same routines and forms over and over, Then some snot nosed kid comes in with no experience or maybe he does have some experience and does something different with you that you are not used to and BLOOP!! you get tagged.

That is why it is good to change things up in your routine and your style.

Peace,TWS

I've gotten hit by a beginner, but not in a way that hurts. Usually when a beginner hits you, he apologizes, and you think "dude, you barely even grazed me....."

[1bad65]

Everywhere I've trained tends to do it the same way in realtion to new guys sparring. They go up against an experienced guy who can handle himself. The new guy is told he will be hit as hard as he hits. I've never seen any serious injuries anywhere I've trained either. Just a few bloody noses mostly.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I dislocated one dude's shoulder with a leg-seep, neck lock combination, going down on one knee (I slammed him really hard--note--a combination of chin-na and a takedown....kudos to me). He was hitting a classmate he outweighed by about 70 lbs. full force. What was worse, is that this kid he was hitting was bone thin (but has a really big heart), had been using kung fu as therapy for a brain tumor, and was primarily there for health reasons. He hit too hard, the smaller guy walked off the floor in anger (which I understood, as you don't see Oscar De La Hoya squaring off with Mike Tyson--which I explained after a couple of hits the dude threw right off the bat), and so I stepped in to settle his temper. He flared up, came at me like he wanted to take my head off, and paid the price. He went down and spent the night in pain until he popped it back into socket. Luckily, he'd had it done before, and knew how to pop it back in--he was crawling around and just slammed his shoulder into the floor. I wasn't sure if he was lying about the shoulder or buying time from a hard slam. Anyone know if you can pop your shoulder back into socket that way?

I felt bad, though. It's bad karma and ego shouldn't be fought with ego. Still, I felt like he had to get hte point across that our kung fu school wasn't the UFC, and a sparring match was not an NHB fight. Later on (weeks) he squared off on an old dude and got his finger bitten during an ill-advised GNP after I told them to break it up a couple of times.

LOL......some people have a death-wish.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I don't think really nailing a newbie is the best way to drill respect into someone. It really just begets a grudge. Me hurting that dude didn't prevent him from attacking someone else (and in a way that we hadn't trained him to, either).

Personally, I don't see a remedy but to expel a student because he lacks discipline. But then, isn't part of martial arts about building discipline, etc.? I talked to the Master of the school about it and he told me a couple of stories to show how "taking one's licks" is a kind of schooling, and he also explained the kind of morality he placed on the issue. I felt really bad about what I did afterwards, as I don't like to hurt people severely, even though I give bruises and welts without care. Still, if you're just a student helping out with the administration of classes in a big brother capacity, you represent the school, and your ego shouldn't get into it too much.

Just curious: for those who own schools, with insurance issues...etcetera, how do you view it?

[Shaolin Wookie]

The other thing is...you don't fight a newbie. You explain to him that you want him to throw combinations at you, then you explain that you want him to defend your combinations, and then you mix it up...but you have to keep that frame in his head that it's a learning experience. We do it at our school by not allowing newbies (first month or so) to spar with gloves or mouthpieces, with only slapping contact if any. I know that sounds lame, but it helps to curb those wild reactions that could get him hurt. As for getting hurt.....newbies don't move for ****. They go straight forward and straight back. If you keep moving, you'll turn him out like a chump, especially if you jab him back to the wall....LOL....

[cjurakpt]

absolutely agree about the whole "newb" courtesy thing: I remember when I started out, my fundamental assumption was that if I did manage to get one in on someone with experience, it was because I wasn't even aware that he had already could have clocked me but just didn't follow through and so me getting a shot off was too late anyway; so I was always extra cautious as well and spent a lot more time working on my defensive structure and awareness of what was coming my way as opposed to being all gung-ho to hit them (besides, that's what fellow newbs were for, right? :D ) - I mean, if you want to get good at defense, you want someone with a good offense to learn on, right?

later on, when I was more comfortable, I'd work counters off the defense if it as successful; it wasn't until later that I started initiating attacks in a concerted way, and then more out of seeing what the other guy would do, how he would handle it; finally, after some years, it became "competitive" even with guys much more experienced;

luckily, at my first school, there were several really good "old school" black belts who were very cool about taking it to the edge of where you could handle things, and then pulling back a bit to give you some space - so they really worked with you if they saw that you were sincere (I also saw what they would do to the wise-asz guys who thought they were the shiznit...not pretty) on the flip side, I remember this one jerk who was much more advanced then I was who used to just run me over when I was a newb (he did this w/everyone); then he stopped training for about 4 years; when he came back, I had been around the block a bit both at that school and elsewhere, and he tried the same sh1t...I won't forget the surprised look on his face when I gave him some payback, LOL...

[冠木侍]

i tend to think that when you go up against a "beginner" persay, and you get hit, it is prolly because you have engrained yourself in the same routine that you become comfortable with it and in a sense you limit your potential. I mean come on, you spar the same people in class, you go over the same routines and forms over and over, Then some snot nosed kid comes in with no experience or maybe he does have some experience and does something different with you that you are not used to and BLOOP!! you get tagged.

That is why it is good to change things up in your routine and your style.

Peace,TWS

If you are fighting a beginner, there is no potential. It is for their benefit that they are up against you. It would not make sense to go to full potential against someone like that because it would just be like bullying someone.

Changing up routines and styles helps your own development when going up against people with similar experience or more advanced people. That is a good rule of thumb but not when dealing with beginners. The way to help out beginners is to first become proficient and then help pass that knowledge on to them. If they got a mouth or attitude....then you deal with it accordingly.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

hoyce would choke a beginner out.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Lol......yeah, but then they'll never come back, and if they do, it's because they feel like they have something to prove, but not so much to themselves. It's recovering "face".

I don't know. I've been loaded down by ego for a long time, especially with regard to my MA practice. I worried about really getting my forms in fantastic shape, remembering them on cue, but mostly because I wanted them to look good, or to get faster for my own benefit to impress other people (on the forms side)...LOL....or to bring their speed and power up to something akin to my bag/target hitting, etc, to get sparring prowess to pwn other people.

That **** really doesn't mean that much, as I realized when I stopped practicing as much. It's learning that drives us to get better, and all those PWNing tendencies will cut short our learning drives, and we'll never get better. Who cares about "face"? Who cares about PWNing other people, especially newbs?

So, I started to meditate before practice and all those questions about forms--if they're really combat-worthy or how to extract the information (all of which is really simple anyways) went away, and I've had better practices every morning. My conditioning has gone up, I feel better, and my forms get better (that is, the economy of my movements). I know that sounds retarded and Karate-kiddish, but it's true.

So, what I'm meaning to say is, something like Suzuki Roshi: In the beginners mind, there are many experts. But in the expert's mind, there are many beginners. Everyone, in point of fact.

LOL.....