Western tools for Gongfu?

[dimethylsea]

I was recently (in the last year) able to have a studio of my own after
years of training. None of my teachers ever had their own permanent
exclusive space (they taught in the park, or rented time slots in a dance
studio or church, or borrowed school space from more fortunate
martial artists) so I feel very fortunate.

Because my space is adjacent to an MMA school there were things lying
around that I "appropriated" (with permission of course). One was a speedbag
frame. Being a greedy gongfu student I hate to waste a potential training
tool so I taught myself how to use it after fixing it up and getting a bag
for it.

This is some footage of me working this western tool.... I'm trying to get a bit
of the bagua "dragon body" flavor in the movements while working with
the short knife (not a western sport use of the speedbag at all).

Does anyone have any critique of this effort or some stories of how they've
used goods at hand to make unusual or unorthodox training gear for gongfu?

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=gj7WcUtxOLo

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am not a fan of speed bag work, never have been and I was actually pretty good at it.

I would suggest you take advantage of the frame and get a small weighted ball, I think ringside or a boxing place may have it and use the frame to hang it from there and train your head and body evasion moves or use it as a small target for strikes and such.

Lose the speed bag.

My 2 cents.

[dimethylsea]

Do you mean a slip bag like this?
http://store.titleboxing.com/slipball.html

If so... then yeah, It's a great tool. That and the slip rope also.

Though I'm sure a boxing coach would be horrified with what I'm doing with
mine.

I don't think I'll lose the speedbag though, it's not like it costs me anything
to leave up and my students like it. It doesn't really take up much floor space
since it's up on the wall.

What do you like doing with a slip bag/ball?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yep, that's the one.

You can also get a smaller than normal speed bag I think.
Kick it ala Van Damme LOL !

[David Jamieson]

speed bag won't really do anything for you. It's antiquated and most, if not all pro boxers have dumped training with speed bags.

they're quaint, but don't deliver any functional results.

slip bags, bounce backs, heavy bags, grapple dummies, mook jongs, a set of weights, pull up bars, kettlebells, dumb bells, 1 meter high boxes (for jump ups and offs), rubber matting, 14 and 16 oz gloves, head gear, shin pads, a turnbuckled ring... all these things are good to have along with methods of using them.

especially weights, kbs and dbs, heavy bag and gear for sparring. these are key to martial development in my opinion as well as is self evident by who the great fighters are. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

...head gear, shin pads....

Bwaahhh !! Pansy.
:p

[David Jamieson]

Bwaahhh !! Pansy.
:p

Hey, I personally prefer head gear and don't care much about shins (played footy for years lol), but I know guys who have trained for years and are still quite sensitive on the shins. +head gear makes sense if you're gonna actually train people how to fight for real in a methodic process. If they ain't getting hit, they don't understand the reality. period. That's my view. Not that the totality of learning comes in the form of being swatted upside the head, but trauma teaches us a lot. lol

Also, if you do cma, then you do a lot of low shovel kicks and those hurt with the right snap in em. lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, I personally prefer head gear and don't care much about shins (played footy for years lol), but I know guys who have trained for years and are still quite sensitive on the shins. +head gear makes sense if you're gonna actually train people how to fight for real in a methodic process. If they ain't getting hit, they don't understand the reality. period. That's my view. Not that the totality of learning comes in the form of being swatted upside the head, but trauma teaches us a lot. lol

Also, if you do cma, then you do a lot of low shovel kicks and those hurt with the right snap in em. lol

Bah !
Head gear is crap, face conditioning is the way to go !
Concussions are just nature's way of telling you to duck.
:D

[David Jamieson]

Bah !
Head gear is crap, face conditioning is the way to go !
Concussions are just nature's way of telling you to duck.
:D

my only issue with it is that it slightly impedes my peripheral vision.

concussions are no good. lol and head gear doesn't do much against a well structured and powerful strike to the head. You can still get concussed.

However, safety first and train in a safe environment. If I'm fighting without headgear, it's because i've walked into a bad situation or some such other thing. At which point, I'm looking for weapons and escape routes not necessarily in that order.

school yard punch ups are for kids. lol

[DRAGONSIHING]

Needs some WD-40 or you'll be deaf and never hear the ninjas. Good vid. Thanks.

[Pork Chop]

speed bag won't really do anything for you. It's antiquated and most, if not all pro boxers have dumped training with speed bags.


Actually every boxing gym i've been to in the states, from nyc to dc to texas still promotes the speed bag. I've never spent more than a couple rounds here or there on the thing and i really don't like it. I will say that no boxing coach has ever really given me a hard time about NOT using the speedbag either - especially given that I spent that time on the double end bag instead.

[ngokfei]

While there are numerous benefits to utilizing the "Speed Bag"

one immediate reason is that it can't be beat in conditioning the student/exponent in keeping their hands up as well as teaching them to relax their shoulders.

[David Jamieson]

While there are numerous benefits to utilizing the "Speed Bag"

one immediate reason is that it can't be beat in conditioning the student/exponent in keeping their hands up as well as teaching them to relax their shoulders.

they'll learn that by sparring too. :)

seriously though, it's not very useful. I think it has been shown taht it doesn't really develop much of anything in anyone. Certainly not speed.

Once you find a rhythm on one, you are done, that's all you're gonna get out of it, it doesn't develop timing in a great sense, it doesn't develop speed, it doesn't develop power it doesn't develop focus and it is a static hanging bag that provides little if any resistance.

so, you see what I mean when I say, it's just another thing like say an ab lounger or a twisty stick weight loss device. lol

[dimethylsea]

they'll learn that by sparring too. :)

seriously though, it's not very useful. I think it has been shown taht it doesn't really develop much of anything in anyone. Certainly not speed.


Could you point me in the direction of some sources on this one.
I ask because as a bagua/kali dude I have noticed profound subjective
benefit from the use of this tool.. and it has been incredibly useful
in getting my (sedentary, newb) students to "move their hands" and
do so with some skill.
Perhaps more important.. the boxing coach at the MMA gym (with 35 years
of coaching experience) doesn't share that POV. I'm trying to "listen
to people with more experience".. but they are saying opposite things.
Can you point me to a source?



Once you find a rhythm on one, you are done, that's all you're gonna get out of it, it doesn't develop timing in a great sense, it doesn't develop speed, it doesn't develop power it doesn't develop focus and it is a static hanging bag that provides little if any resistance.

so, you see what I mean when I say, it's just another thing like say an ab lounger or a twisty stick weight loss device. lol

Well for me.. and I'll just be honest.. even if it was a wall-hanger.. it's an
impressive one. I would keep it around just so I could demo on it for
potential clients.. but I honestly think it's a way-awesome toy
that does good things for me at this point in my evolution.

Same with the slip rope and the slip ball/bag.

[David Jamieson]

ok, well, first it's important to note that there is no actual "good" or "bad" about routines.

But with speed bags, here's the thing.

1.They hang, they are light and provide no resistance and their sway is limited and predictable. Rule of thumb - predictable is a detriment when training to fight-.

2. They provide no resistance and therefore provide no realism. IE, when you meet resistance, your timing and everything change. a speed bag in essence provides false timing. Even focus mitts used properly provide resistance and they move in more directions.

3. You don't develop any speed with them.

It is a safe rule of thumb that if you don't know what the device is doing for you, then you can't really say the device is doing anything.

I think you can do a little digging for yourself and you'll find out about a lot of devices that don't really provide anything beyond a mental imagery element.

[dimethylsea]

Hmm. well as you can see from the clip.. I'm using it to train (among other things)
flexibility in my shoulders/back (throwing those weird elbow angles)
rapid re-orientation of the blade in hand, and hand speed/timing.

Wish there had been a source and not a rationale. I'll go with my gut.
Thanks for taking the time to answer.

[David Jamieson]

do you need to hear it from a boxing coach who doesn't use em? Or a kinesthetics expert who advocates against their use?

In the clip, most of what you are doing doesn't need the bag. the bag is there as a prop and you would get the same effect doing that stuff in the air.

I guess you could keep it as a target. It's not gonna hurt you to swat at it as much as you like.

By all means, go with your gut.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Boxing coaches can be some of the worse hard heads, they make TMA pale in comparison sometimes.
Many still advocate long bouts of road work and are against strength training.
Old habits die hard and old dogma even harder.
I have spoken to some coaches that didn't even know what "specificity" meant or even how it was applicable to boxing.

I am sure that many coaches still advocate speed bag work just like they advocate long bouts of boring moderate paced road work and skipping rope to "increase coordination".

[David Jamieson]

Boxing coaches can be some of the worse hard heads, they make TMA pale in comparison sometimes.
Many still advocate long bouts of road work and are against strength training.
Old habits die hard and old dogma even harder.
I have spoken to some coaches that didn't even know what "specificity" meant or even how it was applicable to boxing.

I am sure that many coaches still advocate speed bag work just like they advocate long bouts of boring moderate paced road work and skipping rope to "increase coordination".


alternatively, there are quite a few who pay attention to olympic clinics and new training methods being used to refine athletes for todays ways of sport.

yeah, there's some old dogs, but not many really. they're a dying breed. same as mystical old men in mountains who teach you how to fly through the air like a freakin monkey screamin wazahhhhh all the way. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

alternatively, there are quite a few who pay attention to olympic clinics and new training methods being used to refine athletes for todays ways of sport.

yeah, there's some old dogs, but not many really. they're a dying breed. same as mystical old men in mountains who teach you how to fly through the air like a freakin monkey screamin wazahhhhh all the way. :D

What ??? you mean I can't do that ???
cgf76436562bc7ehchfuh!!!!cn*((&%%^% !!!!! :mad:

[David Jamieson]

What ??? you mean I can't do that ???
cgf76436562bc7ehchfuh!!!!cn*((&%%^% !!!!! :mad:


no, you can't do that.

and wushu performers aren't learning to fight. :p

[SimonM]

my only issue with it is that it slightly impedes my peripheral vision.

concussions are no good. lol and head gear doesn't do much against a well structured and powerful strike to the head. You can still get concussed.

However, safety first and train in a safe environment. If I'm fighting without headgear, it's because i've walked into a bad situation or some such other thing. At which point, I'm looking for weapons and escape routes not necessarily in that order.

school yard punch ups are for kids. lol


What I find amusing is the amount of data arising that suggests that incidents of head trauma have increased in boxing since the inclusion of padding into the sport. People throw (and take) a lot more shots to the head now that their hands are fully safe and the padding does little to prevent head trauma. Bare-knuckle may, in fact, be the safe option.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What I find amusing is the amount of data arising that suggests that incidents of head trauma have increased in boxing since the inclusion of padding into the sport. People throw (and take) a lot more shots to the head now that their hands are fully safe and the padding does little to prevent head trauma. Bare-knuckle may, in fact, be the safe option.

Bare-knuckle is messier, not more "dangerous".
All the years of Vale Tudo and bare knuckle boxing has taught us that.

[David Jamieson]

not to mention, there are ways to not take the shot in the head, in fact, barring being extremely tired combined with your opponent being unreasonably fast, you should be able to slip, bob, weave, pat, shove, chop or destroy head shots.

mind you, in all truth, you will eat a few (unless your opponent is a total noob) and frankly i'd rather have gear when that happens.

[Lucas]

isnt boxing the sport where back in the old euro prize fighting days, two men with nails sticking out of the bottom of their shoes posted up on opposite sides of a drawn square and immediatly began to pummel each other.

The matches lasting until one man could not go on. a round ending when one guy fell.

the term "square up" comes to mind.....

although reading of instances like 15 rounds.......THATS willpower....all be it, very little skill, but man, that kind of will power can win real fights.

[SimonM]

not to mention, there are ways to not take the shot in the head, in fact, barring being extremely tired combined with your opponent being unreasonably fast, you should be able to slip, bob, weave, pat, shove, chop or destroy head shots.

mind you, in all truth, you will eat a few (unless your opponent is a total noob) and frankly i'd rather have gear when that happens.

What I'm saying is that, on average, people have taken more shots to the head since gloves were introduced than in the days of bare knuckle boxing. Largely because they don't have to worry about shattering their hands from repeatedly smacking somebody in the skull with their knuckles.

Lucas: from what I've read it would appear that most of the history of boxing has been a slow addition of new rules rather than a removal of old ones. The earliest boxing matches were supposedly much more akin to san da rules minus the lei tai and any gloves than it was to modern boxing. It was fight until the other guy couldn't get up and resume fighting within 30 seconds, throws, and all strikes allowed. It got pared down to punches + footwork + defense vs. punches over time.

[Wood Dragon]

Get an agility ladder.

Some of the Nike SPARQ gear, though both pricey and meant for Football practice, translates really well to martial arts conditioning.

Makiwara would be a definite recommendation.

YMMV.