Chow gar

[Mr Punch]

Met a Chow Gar (Southern Praying Mantis) bloke yesterday. I can't train (other than exceptionally slow forms) since I'm still injured, but we had a good chat and I showed him a couple of things, my friend showed him some more and he showed us some stuff (my friend also did some chi sao with him - hopefully he'll show up on this thread at some point to share some of his thoughts).

Five random musings:

1) There seem to be a lot of similarities between chun and chow gar.

2) Their first set is a basic punching set with *gasp* footwork. Very nice. Seems like a good idea. I obviously love chun, but SLT seems an odd way to start for an art that's supposedly quick to learn.

3) Similar point really: the CG guy showed us how they practise their short power jing striking by hitting things (trees etc)... for example, in chun I've been taught a shoulder strike through delinking from a lap sao, but we never practised it ON anything.

And sure, our short power is practised by hitting people, but for example, in chi sao we always seem to 'pull' the punch by going for a push-punch because the 'real thing' is supposedly too devastating to practise on people... and sure, I've done thousands of wall bag strikes, but they're mostly from more static stances or the same range.

4) They have a lot of 'arm destructions'. I think the basic chun principle of not chasing hands is a far better idea! Like I said, I didn't actually get to train with this bloke but it's just the impression I got.

5) He had the impression that chun's chi sao wasn't free at all and was based on drills. We disavowed him of this!

Good experience, and nice guy. Hope to actually train with him sometime.

[Vajramusti]

Five random musings:

1) There seem to be a lot of similarities between chun and chow gar.

((Similarities- some but differences many- in structure, footwork and motions))))

2) Their first set is a basic punching set with *gasp* footwork. Very nice. Seems like a good idea. I obviously love chun, but SLT seems an odd way to start for an art that's supposedly quick to learn.

((Odd? Fundamental to progression in wing chun. WC is not the only way to fight-but if one chooses the WC way- the SLT and good chi sao is part of the wc way))

3) Similar point really: the CG guy showed us how they practise their short power jing striking by hitting things (trees etc)... for example, in chun I've been taught a shoulder strike through delinking from a lap sao, but we never practised it ON anything.

(( Good WC has short power too-but not necessary to strike on trees))

And sure, our short power is practised by hitting people,

((Not enough))

but for example, in chi sao we always seem to 'pull' the punch by going for a push-punch because the 'real thing' is supposedly too devastating to practise on people... and sure, I've done thousands of wall bag strikes, but they're mostly from more static stances or the same range.

((I dont "pull" punches-just control appropriate amount of power- depending on context/intent))

4) They have a lot of 'arm destructions'. I think the basic chun principle of not chasing hands is a far better idea! Like I said, I didn't actually get to train with this bloke but it's just the impression I got.

5) He had the impression that chun's chi sao wasn't free at all and was based on drills. We disavowed him of this!

((He must have seen bad chi sao---lots of it around. Good that you got to work some with /observe another style))

Joy Chaudhuri

[HardWork8]

Met a Chow Gar (Southern Praying Mantis) bloke yesterday. I can't train (other than exceptionally slow forms) since I'm still injured, but we had a good chat and I showed him a couple of things, my friend showed him some more and he showed us some stuff (my friend also did some chi sao with him - hopefully he'll show up on this thread at some point to share some of his thoughts).

Five random musings:

1) There seem to be a lot of similarities between chun and chow gar.

2) Their first set is a basic punching set with *gasp* footwork. Very nice. Seems like a good idea. I obviously love chun, but SLT seems an odd way to start for an art that's supposedly quick to learn.

3) Similar point really: the CG guy showed us how they practise their short power jing striking by hitting things (trees etc)... for example, in chun I've been taught a shoulder strike through delinking from a lap sao, but we never practised it ON anything.

And sure, our short power is practised by hitting people, but for example, in chi sao we always seem to 'pull' the punch by going for a push-punch because the 'real thing' is supposedly too devastating to practise on people... and sure, I've done thousands of wall bag strikes, but they're mostly from more static stances or the same range.

4) They have a lot of 'arm destructions'. I think the basic chun principle of not chasing hands is a far better idea! Like I said, I didn't actually get to train with this bloke but it's just the impression I got.

5) He had the impression that chun's chi sao wasn't free at all and was based on drills. We disavowed him of this!

Good experience, and nice guy. Hope to actually train with him sometime.

Did you find out how long he had been practicing Chow Gar?

[Mr Punch]

((Similarities- some but differences many- in structure, footwork and motions))))Sure. His basic stance was a little more sideways. He used a lot of something very similar to san gwok ma. Greater use of a more front-weighted stance though not as much as you'd think. Ways of issuing short power esp with two arms at once were pretty similar, tho he did tend to go way off line (obviously a strategy in CG).

The use of elbows was very similar to ours. As was their leg work (knee control, small stamps and trips and low kicks).


((Odd? Fundamental to progression in wing chun. WC is not the only way to fight-but if one chooses the WC way- the SLT and good chi sao is part of the wc way))Sure. I like chun. I like the chun progression. But for a supposedly quick to learn and apply no-nonsense art, it has a very slow way of developing. There's no footwork in the first form! Of course there is the base of the later revealed footwork, but there's no movement! My school was relatively quick in that it taught turning drills and wallbag as soon as the student had the basic grasp of the punch and chain punch (after the first section) but I know of some schools that don't allow any stepping or turning until CK, because that's when they show up in the form... Which, frankly, is silly.


(( Good WC has short power too-but not necessary to strike on trees))... ((Not enough))So you're agreeing then? I wasn't suggesting training on trees is the way forward. But compared to the wallbag you can vary the distance a lot more and use a lot more different parts of the body to strike, thus also getting used to hitting whilst moving and so not risking losing your structure becasue most of your stance work for the first year or so has been stationary!

I'm emphasising the importance of hitting something preferably as close to a moving human as possible. Heavy bags would have to be the logical conclusion (I've come to this conclusion many times from many different starting points...).


((I dont "pull" punches-just control appropriate amount of power- depending on context/intent))Joy, what's the difference between 'controlling an appropriate amount of power' and 'pulling a punch'? They are neither of them hitting full power; they are both using a different energy. Are you saying you ever hit your partners full power so you can feel the effect of short power?

Most people I've seen and felt in WC demos and chi sao will say they're not pulling by using what I call a push-punch: you know the short power we've all seen that gets your partner flying back. Well, in a fight, I don't necessarily want to waste my energy getting my attacker to fly back. Of course, that is one of the WC energies and the one most easily and frequently practised. But what about the other types: eg penetrating and crushing/sinking? Well the first can be practised on a heavy bag, for example: if I can unload my strongest most rooted hit and the bag doesn't move, I know I've got it delivered correctly into the bag's centre of mass. For the second one if I can punch the bag and crumple it in the middle without it flying back (the most common energy for a body shot in boxing for example) I know I've got it.

Basically, again, that's the difference between practising at full power and not. The pushing energy is the only one that really gets practised at full power in chun it seems to me.


((He must have seen bad chi sao---lots of it around. Good that you got to work some with /observe another style))Agreed, and yes, it was very useful. Not the first time and won't be the last.

Thanks for your reply.

[Mr Punch]

Did you find out how long he had been practicing Chow Gar?Don't know, maybe three years... think he said, but someone's actions speak louder than time in. Why?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Met a Chow Gar (Southern Praying Mantis) bloke yesterday. I can't train (other than exceptionally slow forms) since I'm still injured, but we had a good chat and I showed him a couple of things, my friend showed him some more and he showed us some stuff (my friend also did some chi sao with him - hopefully he'll show up on this thread at some point to share some of his thoughts).

Five random musings:

1) There seem to be a lot of similarities between chun and chow gar.

2) Their first set is a basic punching set with *gasp* footwork. Very nice. Seems like a good idea. I obviously love chun, but SLT seems an odd way to start for an art that's supposedly quick to learn.

3) Similar point really: the CG guy showed us how they practise their short power jing striking by hitting things (trees etc)... for example, in chun I've been taught a shoulder strike through delinking from a lap sao, but we never practised it ON anything.

And sure, our short power is practised by hitting people, but for example, in chi sao we always seem to 'pull' the punch by going for a push-punch because the 'real thing' is supposedly too devastating to practise on people... and sure, I've done thousands of wall bag strikes, but they're mostly from more static stances or the same range.

4) They have a lot of 'arm destructions'. I think the basic chun principle of not chasing hands is a far better idea! Like I said, I didn't actually get to train with this bloke but it's just the impression I got.

5) He had the impression that chun's chi sao wasn't free at all and was based on drills. We disavowed him of this!

Good experience, and nice guy. Hope to actually train with him sometime.

A Paul Whitrod guy perhaps?

[Mr Punch]

I've no idea who Paul Whitrod is... I'm on a different continent don't forget. But I think he's the student of one of Henry Su's students if that's any good to you. An Aussie.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've no idea who Paul Whitrod is... I'm on a different continent don't forget. But I think he's the student of one of Henry Su's students if that's any good to you. An Aussie.

Sorry dude, I read bloke and assumed the UK, my bad.

[HardWork8]

Don't know, maybe three years... think he said, but someone's actions speak louder than time in. Why?

Some times someone's "time in" is a good indicator of his actions and skill.;)

[Mr Punch]

Sorry dude, I read bloke and assumed the UK, my bad.I'm a Brit, true, but I live just out of Tokyo, and have done for eight and a half years.


Some times someone's "time in" is a good indicator of his actions and skill.Sure, if you're talking to them in the pub.If you have a chance to train with them you can measure their skills more effectively.

I was looking at the way he handled my training partner, who's about nine years in (but the last three without a teacher) and who's abilities I know well, and who is an equivalent size to the Chow Gar guy (they're both about 195cm). He seems quite good, if that's any use to you!? :rolleyes:

[HardWork8]

Sure, if you're talking to them in the pub.If you have a chance to train with them you can measure their skills more effectively.
I haven't had the chance to train with this guy, so that is why I asked you how long he had trained.

Also there are training aspects in Chow Gar that produce relatively longer term results. Knowing how long he had trained will help me assess his progress regarding these aspects of Chow Gar that is, assuming he traines/ed in an authentic school that taught those aspects.


I was looking at the way he handled my training partner, who's about nine years in (but the last three without a teacher) and who's abilities I know well, and who is an equivalent size to the Chow Gar guy (they're both about 195cm). He seems quite good, if that's any use to you!? :rolleyes:

I have seen good Chow Gar and if this guy trained 3 years and lets say 3 times a week at 3 hours each time, then he should have blown your WC friend away. I have felt the power and the efficiency of good Chow Gar and it seems to be a superior system to Wing Chun.

[Mr Punch]

I haven't had the chance to train with this guy, so that is why I asked you how long he had trained. Fair enough.


Also there are training aspects in Chow Gar that produce relatively longer term results.No disrespect (I know English isn't your first language) but I think you've made a mistake in your English here. A long-term result for an MA would I hope mean I could have a reltively good chance of protecting myself for the rest of my life. What would be a longer term result than the rest of my life? Celestial kung fu?! :D


I think you've Knowing how long he had trained will help me assess his progress regarding these aspects of Chow Gar that is, assuming he traines/ed in an authentic school that taught those aspects...

I have seen good Chow Gar and if this guy trained 3 years and lets say 3 times a week at 3 hours each time, then he should have blown your WC friend away. I have felt the power and the efficiency of good Chow Gar and it seems to be a superior system to Wing Chun.OK, so you should've quit while you were at least trying to make sense.

You want me to tell you how long this guy's trained so you can assess if his chow gar's a reasonable level and good line based on you believing chow gar to be a superior system to wing chun based on your three years of serious wing chun practice and having 'felt the power' of chow gar (so how much experience do you have of that and how long did it take you training in that to assess the standard of the guys whose power you felt?! :D ) without knowing the standard (just the length of time) of my friend's wing chun or how many times a week for how many hours he trained...? Is that about it?

You're a very silly boy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Someone's time "in" a system is irrelevant to how well they can do it, why?
Because it doesn't take into account prior MA experience ( shorter learning curve) or an individuals ability to learn and perform.
The proof is in the pudding, someone with 3 years of X and can use it well has a far better grasp of the system than someone with 7 years and who can't use it at all.
Common sense.

[Jim Roselando]

Chow Gar South Mantis

Sifu Yip Chee Kung Demo in Hungary.

Son of Yip Sui (founder of Chow school of Mantis). Before Yip Sui it was called Chu Gar Mantis which came from Lau Sui.

Hard and Tough South Fist Kung Fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDkP9mjBU&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chow Gar South Mantis

Sifu Yip Chee Kung Demo in Hungary.

Son of Yip Sui (founder of Chow school of Mantis). Before Yip Sui it was called Chu Gar Mantis which came from Lau Sui.

Hard and Tough South Fist Kung Fu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDkP9mjBU&feature=related

Is there still any Chu Gar ?

I have seen a few clips on youtube of Chu gar and the forms don't look the same as the Chow gar ones...

[Vajramusti]

I have felt the power and the efficiency of good Chow Gar and it seems to be a superior system to Wing Chun.
--------------------------------------
An opinion perhaps- not much to it.

BTW-on Chow Gar- JM is likely to disagree...but IMO--Gin Foon Mark in Minnesota is quite old- in his 80s- doesnt do Chow Gar- but his Southern mantis is powerful-ditto for some of his better students.

joy chaudhuri

[KPM]

I have felt the power and the efficiency of good Chow Gar and it seems to be a superior system to Wing Chun.
--------------------------------------
An opinion perhaps- not much to it.

BTW-on Chow Gar- JM is likely to disagree...but IMO--Gin Foon Mark in Minnesota is quite old- in his 80s- doesnt do Chow Gar- but his Southern mantis is powerful-ditto for some of his better students.

joy chaudhuri

---I agree with Joy on both points. Juk Loom Southern Mantis and Chow Gar are not the same thing. Closely related perhaps...but not the same thing.

[HardWork8]

No disrespect (I know English isn't your first language) but I think you've made a mistake in your English here. A long-term result for an MA would I hope mean I could have a reltively good chance of protecting myself for the rest of my life.
You should have known that I wasn't talking about that! There are certain aspects of Chow Gar such as the shield (Iron Shirt) that will take at least a few years to manifest. If this guy was training for 3 years and did not have the "shield" then that would put his training into question. Just one example.


What would be a longer term result than the rest of my life? Celestial kung fu?! :D

No perhaps Sanity, or at least the ability to understand simple statements?


OK, so you should've quit while you were at least trying to make sense.
The fact that it didn't make sense may have to do more with your own intellectual limitations then anything I said. Or perhaps English is not your first language either?

I made a relatively simple statement. Others haven't agreed with it without taking your pompous attitude.


You want me to tell you how long this guy's trained so you can assess if his chow gar's a reasonable level and good line based on you believing chow gar to be a superior system to wing chun based on your three years of serious wing chun practice and having 'felt the power' of chow gar
:confused::rolleyes:


(so how much experience do you have of that and how long did it take you training in that to assess the standard of the guys whose power you felt?! :D )

Believe me, a lot more than you will ever have! That is why I asked you the question. It was a simple question and it was not supposed to reveal anything "deep", only to give me a better idea of the story.


You're a very silly boy.

You should do something about your permanent Sunstroke problem.:D

[HardWork8]

I have felt the power and the efficiency of good Chow Gar and it seems to be a superior system to Wing Chun.
--------------------------------------
An opinion perhaps- not much to it.

It is an opinion based on my experience of both( relatively little Chow Gar) systems. My kung fu style is still
Siu Lam Wing Chun and adore it, but that does not mean that there aren't higher level kung fu styles.


BTW-on Chow Gar- JM is likely to disagree...but IMO--Gin Foon Mark in Minnesota is quite old- in his 80s- doesnt do Chow Gar- but his Southern mantis is powerful-ditto for some of his better students.

Last time I looked Chow Gar was a Southern Mantis style. Or did I misunderstand your statement?:o

[Vajramusti]

Both are southern mantis and rooted in Hakka ways.
I dont know the details of Siu Lam wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Jim Roselando]

Sanjuro Ronin,

Is there still any Chu Gar ?

Yes Sir! Its just not as wide spread as Chow. There is a big Chu Gar organization in Hong Kong but they have people around. JR

I have seen a few clips on youtube of Chu gar and the forms don't look the same as the Chow gar ones...

I will post a clip of Chu and Jook. That way you have a good look at Chow, Chu & Jook in this thread! Yes, you can find differences in most of the sets these days. I believe the core sets to be 3, 18, 108. In the old days Chu Gar had, 3, 18 & Fut Sao as their core. Jook Lum has 3, 18, 108 as their core. Chow Gar has dozens of sets. Iron Ok Mantis also has many! These arts IMO are a young off-shoot of Fukien Crane mother system. South Mantis can only trace their lineages back a handfull of people. 4-5 max generations. Jook Lum lore states it comes from the Lungfushan region on the northern Fukian boarder. Fukien mother system preserves 3, 18, 108! JR

*

Cheng Wan Chu Gar South Mantis. Cheng Wan was the student of Chu Gong Wah. Chu Gong Wah was heir to Lao Sui's Chu Gar Gao teaching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJkBaQx0rHo

*Note this a real hard demo. The Kids were really tensing during Grinding Arms.

*

Jook Lum South Mantis demo 1963. The first few minutes is lion dancing. Then, the 1ST person to demo @ 1:55-2:10 is GM Lum Sang. 4' 11" barely 100lbs. This little guy was second to none. All who met him or felt his boxing speak with the utmost respect for him.

The second person in the demo is not South Mantis. Some kind of Tibetan Crane set.

The 3 person is also not South Mantis.

The Last Person doing the demo was Lum Sang's top student. Chin Sifu passsed away but was said to be his best. His demo starts at 3:25-end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFsM0SglOJ0&feature=related

*

Check out:

www.chinamantis.com

This eBook is RICH with info. Filthy RICH! Loads and loads of video clips, animated gif's, pictures and info on the Southern Mantis Boxing schools.


Hope this helps!

:)

[JPinAZ]

thought this was interesting.
Says "Chu Gar Gao Kungfu Defence" and you can hear the guy at the begining saying 'wing chu' a few times, so I am assuming by that and watching the clip that the guy with the gloves is the WC guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vmk20gVX1E&feature=related

[Jim Roselando]

JP,

The Chu Gar Gao guy is Not a good representative of South Mantis Boxing at all IMO.

His solo set speaks a million words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWvkS5wsQ2Q&feature=related

I will look for some better clips and post tomorrow. The above guy has little south mantis cultivation/skill. Just compare it to Yip Chee Kung, Cheng Wan or Lam Sang's stuff. Champagne bottle, Beer content! Those guys are serious players/fighters.

:)

[Sekabin]

Hey guys,

Not so keen to step into the fray here (I tend to lurk rather than post), but I'm the friend who did the sparring so I should probably correct a couple of things.

The guy's been training six years not three. I don't know the full lineage but I know it's not Henry Sue. Maybe Paul Brennan.

Anyway, I was impressed with the shocking force, footwork and general connectedness. There are some clear similarities with (my) WCK, though ging is not with deliberate exhalation in either our forms or application. Conditioning (as you'd expect) was good.

Back to lurking...

[Mr Punch]

There's no fray here, stranger - just one guy arguing with himself it seems!

Andrew said his teacher had been taught by Su, though.

And yeah the exhalation thing caught me by surprise: I'd never seen anything quite like that in 12 years of CMA... more reminiscent of some karate styles.

Since you're knocking about, unless you're just gonna go back to being the man of mystery, perhaps you'd like to give us a bit of a run down of any of the things that worked well against him/you or caught either of you by surprise, or anything one of you didn't have an answer for?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro Ronin,

Is there still any Chu Gar ?

Yes Sir! Its just not as wide spread as Chow. There is a big Chu Gar organization in Hong Kong but they have people around. JR

I have seen a few clips on youtube of Chu gar and the forms don't look the same as the Chow gar ones...

I will post a clip of Chu and Jook. That way you have a good look at Chow, Chu & Jook in this thread! Yes, you can find differences in most of the sets these days. I believe the core sets to be 3, 18, 108. In the old days Chu Gar had, 3, 18 & Fut Sao as their core. Jook Lum has 3, 18, 108 as their core. Chow Gar has dozens of sets. Iron Ok Mantis also has many! These arts IMO are a young off-shoot of Fukien Crane mother system. South Mantis can only trace their lineages back a handfull of people. 4-5 max generations. Jook Lum lore states it comes from the Lungfushan region on the northern Fukian boarder. Fukien mother system preserves 3, 18, 108! JR

*

Cheng Wan Chu Gar South Mantis. Cheng Wan was the son of Chu Gong Wah. Chu Gong Wah was heir to Lao Sui's Chu Gar Gao teaching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJkBaQx0rHo

*Note this a real hard demo. The Kids were really tensing during Grinding Arms.

*

Jook Lum South Mantis demo 1963. The first few minutes is lion dancing. Then, the 1ST person to demo @ 1:55-2:10 is GM Lum Sang. 4' 11" barely 100lbs. This little guy was second to none. All who met him or felt his boxing speak with the utmost respect for him.

The second person in the demo is not South Mantis. Some kind of Tibetan Crane set.

The 3 person is also not South Mantis.

The Last Person doing the demo was Lum Sang's top student. Chin Sifu passsed away but was said to be his best. His demo starts at 3:25-end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFsM0SglOJ0&feature=related

*

Check out:

www.chinamantis.com

This eBook is RICH with info. Filthy RICH! Loads and loads of video clips, animated gif's, pictures and info on the Southern Mantis Boxing schools.


Hope this helps!

:)

Thanks.
I have heard mix things about Rogers book, but haven't read it for myself.
The 68 New years demo was very cool, the last person was Gin Foon Mark is I am not mistaken.

[KPM]

thought this was interesting.
Says "Chu Gar Gao Kungfu Defence" and you can hear the guy at the begining saying 'wing chu' a few times, so I am assuming by that and watching the clip that the guy with the gloves is the WC guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vmk20gVX1E&feature=related

I wasn't impressed with either one of those guys!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wasn't impressed with either one of those guys!

At least they are doing something, which is better than nothing.
One hopes they got some thing out of it, namely how ineffective BOTH were because neither was "prepared" to handle the others "style" of attack and defence.
The danger of "****genized" sparring/training.
That applies to ALL systems

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Thanks.
I have heard mix things about Rogers book, but haven't read it for myself.

If you are looking into South Mantis, I can tell you without reserve it is filthy RICH with info. and clips and pictures and and and. JR

The 68 New years demo was very cool, the last person was Gin Foon Mark is I am not mistaken.

No. Mark Foon was the guy who demo the Crane set. He was the second person in the demo to the best of my knoweldge. The last guy was Chin sifu. He has passed away.

Here is an old clip of Mark Foon doing a little sparring with some Choy Li Fut guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4&feature=PlayList&p=4C6675202B139B46&index=2

Here is some more footage of Mark Foon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg&feature=PlayList&p=4C6675202B139B46&index=1


:)

[Vajramusti]

You can vsit his website. He is over 80 years old. he is a protege of the late Jook Lum mantis great Lum sum(sp?). You can see him doing some short power movements on Chinese New Years 2008. There are people who have felt the short power.There was a shot one time on the net with him playing with his sifu.There was an article on him in JAMA a couple of years ago.

joy chaudhuri

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Some Chow Gar footage!

1960's Chow Demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD3qtwjYZ1U&feature=related

Sifu Yip Chee Kung:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIOws-AZZac&feature=related

Short demo with the Late Yip Sui:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k5e6kQtF6A&feature=related

Sifu Paul Whitrod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYBqQVbYaD8&feature=related

*I met Paul a number of years ago. He is a nice guy!


:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello,




No. Mark Foon was the guy who demo the Crane set. He was the second person in the demo to the best of my knoweldge. The last guy was Chin sifu. He has passed away.

Here is an old clip of Mark Foon doing a little sparring with some Choy Li Fut guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeoiClKTXU4&feature=PlayList&p=4C6675202B139B46&index=2

Here is some more footage of Mark Foon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DGa23DZdg&feature=PlayList&p=4C6675202B139B46&index=1


:)

You sure?
Even the guy who posted the clip says its Mark at the end...

[JPinAZ]

JP,

The Chu Gar Gao guy is Not a good representative of South Mantis Boxing at all IMO.

His solo set speaks a million words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWvkS5wsQ2Q&feature=related

I will look for some better clips and post tomorrow. The above guy has little south mantis cultivation/skill. Just compare it to Yip Chee Kung, Cheng Wan or Lam Sang's stuff. Champagne bottle, Beer content! Those guys are serious players/fighters.

:)

Just thought it was interesting considering the thread.

JR,

What is your experience with Chu Gar/Chow Gar? Have you trained in thise system before?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


You sure?
Even the guy who posted the clip says its Mark at the end...

Almost 99% sure! Mark Foon was the second guy doing the Crane set to the best of my knowledge. I think I have seen him do that set before but it was a long time ago. As far as my memory goes, Mark Foon studied some kind of Crane with his Uncle as a kid??? JR

Hope this helps!

[Jim Roselando]

JP,


How are you?

JR,

What is your experience with Chu Gar/Chow Gar? Have you trained in thise system before?

I did not study Chow Gar. For a few years, a while back, I studied some Jook Lum South Mantis but that was a while ago and only for a short time period. I did research the south mantis arts tho and am very good friends with a number of south mantis players.

I met Chow Gar sifu Paul Whitrod In London at his club. He taught me some Chow set but I never practiced it. He also demo for me the Poison Snake Staff. Excellent pole set! Very simple and similar to WC pole as the flick with the tip and do not twirl etc..

I have cross hands with some South Mantis. Mostly Jook Lum guys. I highly recommend Wing Chun guys to spar with South Mantis, Whitebrow or other arts more so than against other WC. They do not react like WC players do. They also tend to not go with the pressure and drive/cleave and hit thru. A totally different sparring experience and much more valuable that regular WC versus WC stuff. Similar to fighting a little Tank with springy/shock Arms is the best way to describe a good south mantis guy!


Jook Lum tends to be the softest
Chu Gar is medium hard
Chow Gar is a bit harder
Iron Ox seems to be the hardest

Hope this helps!

[HardWork8]

JP,


How are you?

JR,

What is your experience with Chu Gar/Chow Gar? Have you trained in thise system before?

I did not study Chow Gar. For a few years, a while back, I studied some Jook Lum South Mantis but that was a while ago and only for a short time period. I did research the south mantis arts tho and am very good friends with a number of south mantis players.

I met Chow Gar sifu Paul Whitrod In London at his club. He taught me some Chow set but I never practiced it. He also demo for me the Poison Snake Staff. Excellent pole set! Very simple and similar to WC pole as the flick with the tip and do not twirl etc..

I have cross hands with some South Mantis. Mostly Jook Lum guys. I highly recommend Wing Chun guys to spar with South Mantis, Whitebrow or other arts more so than against other WC. They do not react like WC players do. They also tend to not go with the pressure and drive/cleave and hit thru. A totally different sparring experience and much more valuable that regular WC versus WC stuff. Similar to fighting a little Tank with springy/shock Arms is the best way to describe a good south mantis guy!


Jook Lum tends to be the softest
Chu Gar is medium hard
Chow Gar is a bit harder
Iron Ox seems to be the hardest

Hope this helps!

Very interesting.

They have a very solid body unity, is that what you experienced?

And did you find it difficult to maintain your rooting with them?

[HardWork8]

Oh, here is an interesting video as well, sorry if it has been posted before:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0wRqR9J8WA&NR=1

One can see parallels with WC up to a point, that is.

[Jim Roselando]

Hardwork8,


Very interesting.

They have a very solid body unity, is that what you experienced?

Nice South Mantis certainly have very good body structure and root. One of the main reasons is the structure and conditioning. This San Chin kind of body is easier to develop power with early on IMO! JR

And did you find it difficult to maintain your rooting with them?

Yes and no. First time I met my old JL sifu he knocked me all over the place. If you think you are going to beat them with power you are in for a Rude Awakening! They are very strong, and solid, and yes you will lose your root if you try to muscle them. Now, the average mantis guy tends to Harden a lot. Even Jook Lum guys tend to over harden which makes the reaction time no as fast as it can be. If you stay relaxed, and react quickly, you will see they have some trouble against this method.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Just to clarify!

The person at the end of the Jook Lum 60's demo was the late Sifu Chin Ho Doon (sp?). He was GM Lum Sang's top man at that time and more likely would have been his successor if he did not pass away.

:)

[Vajramusti]

Jim- the clip is a worn out version of a 1963 New Year demo.The second demo is by Kwan Tak Hing who had learned Tibetan crane and played the role of Lam Sai Wing in movies.
The last demo is by Gin Foon Mark not Ho Dun .Mark sifu opened his NY school in 1967 with the official altar from
Lum Sang before Lum Sung left for Taiwan. The side notes of the clip tells who is who.
In no way do my comments take away the accomplishments and great standing of the late Ho Dun. Ho Dun and Gin Foon mark were contemporaries and both were great disciples of Lum Sung.Understandably the erosion of the quality of the old film can cause some confusion.

Joy Chaudhuri

PS. Perhaps we should back into the regular thread so as not to get into things that belong in the southern forum.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Joy,


Thanks for the info.. I am not so sure tho.????

I contacted Lum Sang's disciple and he confirmed the info I posted. I was on the phone with him yesterday talking about the clip and Lum Sang. I wanted to dbl check about Ho Doon so I called him!

I also know for sure that Lum Sang gave his alter to someone else. Unless he had numerous alters, which is not common, I can tell you that Lum Sifu's alter is now located just outside of Boston! I know he did teach a number of people how to care for the Alter but I know for sure his Alter is in the hands of one of his last pupils.

Cool discussion and yes there is as much confusion and cross information in South Mantis as it is in Wing Chun or any other art!

:cool:

I can call Lum's student and Roger today and find out for sure if you want? I could be wrong or have the people mixed up???? Wouldn't be the first time! hahaha

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey Joy,


Thanks for the info.. I am not so sure tho.????

I contacted Lum Sang's disciple and he confirmed the info I posted. I was on the phone with him yesterday talking about the clip and Lum Sang. I wanted to dbl check about Ho Doon so I called him!

I also know for sure that Lum Sang gave his alter to someone else. Unless he had numerous alters, which is not common, I can tell you that Lum Sifu's alter is now located just outside of Boston! I know he did teach a number of people how to care for the Alter but I know for sure his Alter is in the hands of one of his last pupils.

Cool discussion and yes there is as much confusion and cross information in South Mantis as it is in Wing Chun or any other art!

:cool:

Lets not get into THAT debate which I am sure has been hashed over and over enough as it is.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Lets not get into THAT debate which I am sure has been hashed over and over enough as it is.

*

I wrote this to Joy hahaha;

Cool discussion and yes there is as much confusion and cross information in South Mantis as it is in Wing Chun or any other art!

I totally agree with you. I'm more interested in the arts than the family stuff. I'm just sharing some info. and these seems to be a very unusual thread in KFO history! Almost no Trolls messing it up. Just good sharing of south mantis info!

*

Gotta run!

[KPM]

One thing that seems to be common to all of these clips on Southern Mantis....they keep a forward weighted stance rather than being back on the heels like a lot of Wing Chun guys. This gives them good forward pressure and a strong structure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing that seems to be common to all of these clips on Southern Mantis....they keep a forward weighted stance rather than being back on the heels like a lot of Wing Chun guys. This gives them good forward pressure and a strong structure.

My main experience, if you can call it that, is with Chow gar and yes, I would agree with you.
The weight is balanced, not overly on the front leg, but still more "forward" than anything else.
Chow Gar can be "stiff" at times, especially in the beginning stages when one tends to be overly occupied with delivering force.

[junmo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlInJFHw5mQ&feature=related


Heres part 2 of the Henry Sue Chow Gar out of Brisbane Australia - whatever you say about boards not hitting back....their free expression shown here looks fairly comprehensive to me...40 secs in it fung hao city...these guys look like they really take it seriously...I enjoyed watching it

[sanjuro_ronin]

Never cared much for slap fighting, sorry.

[junmo]

oh I'm sorry did I say they were fighting?...I thought they were training...?

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh I'm sorry did I say they were fighting?...I thought they were training...?

Ah, that explains it.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello!


CORRECTION!!!

Joy was correct!

1st Lum Sang
2nd Kwan Tak Hing
3rd ?
4th Ho Dun
5th Mark Foon

*

Pease note this was a very short piece of their demo. There were many 1st generation people at that event. Including Bak Lim Wong who first showed the film and has the original. These were not standard South Mantis sets but a little Shadow Boxing after some Hung Men ceremonies.

Hope this helps and sorry for any confusion!

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello!


CORRECTION!!!

Joy was correct!

1st Lum Sang
2nd Kwan Tak Hing
3rd ?
4th Ho Dun
5th Mark Foon

*

Pease note this was a very short piece of their demo. There were many 1st generation people at that event. Including Bak Lim Wong who first showed the film and has the original. These were not standard South Mantis sets but a little Shadow Boxing after some Hung Men ceremonies.

Hope this helps and sorry for any confusion!

:)

Told you so...:p

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Guys!


Here ya go!

Free "small" Chu Gar South Mantis eBook!


http://www.chinamantis.com/chugar.exe


Enjoy!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks dude, makes me wonder if I shoudl get Roger's book....

[Jim Roselando]

Hello!


For me, I can tell you there truly isn't anything out there that comes close to the ChinaMantis eBook! NOTHING

Its actually 5 eBooks in one! Each eBook is much bigger than the Chu Gar free book. If you like Southern Mantis then I would get it.

I am a big fan of Southern Mantis and have not found anything close to its information content.

www.chinamantis.com

:)

[unkokusai]

My kung fu style is still
Siu Lam Wing Chun and adore it




What about your 'secret' kungfu style that you can't tell anyone about? Do you adore it too?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What about your 'secret' kungfu style that you can't tell anyone about? Do you adore it too?

No one in the Siu Lam family would take responsibility for this wack job, he gets all he training at the local S&M dungeons.

[HardWork8]

What about your 'secret' kungfu style that you can't tell anyone about? Do you adore it too?
Yes, I do!

[unkokusai]

Yes, I do!


What was it called again?

[HardWork8]

What was it called again?
You've got a bad memory.:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

You've got a bad memory.:rolleyes:



Well then, refresh my memory. What was it called again?

[HardWork8]

Well then, refresh my memory. What was it called again?

It is called, "My main style is Wing Chun and I prefer to keep the other style of kung fu which I am not sufficiengtly proficient at yet, to myself".

Did that jog you memory a little?:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

It is called, "My main style is Wing Chun and I prefer to keep the other style of kung fu which I am not sufficiengtly proficient at yet, to myself". :


In other words, you practice the little WC you learned alone by yourself down in the basement and that's it. The 'secret' style is obviously just lame bull**** you made up (but weren't even clever enough to put a name to) to make it seem as if you had any real experience.

[KPM]

Gin Foon Mark in Minnesota is quite old- in his 80s- doesnt do Chow Gar- but his Southern mantis is powerful-ditto for some of his better students.

joy chaudhuri

I love seeing footage of Gin Foon Mark in action. If I had ever lived anywhere close to Minnesota I would have sought him out for training. Through the years at various times I have toyed with giving my Wing Chun a "mantis flavor" based on what I've seen of Gin Foon Mark. There are lots of overlaps between the two systems. This thread has gotten me thinking along those lines again. The way I have been doing Wing Chun lately with the body structure methods from Robert Chu and Alan Orr as well as some other changes I have made....it fits in even better with a "mantis" slant. I played some "mantis Wing Chun" with one of my students today. It worked well and he really liked it. Fun stuff! :)

[HardWork8]

In other words, you practice the little WC you learned alone by yourself down in the basement and that's it. The 'secret' style is obviously just lame bull**** you made up (but weren't even clever enough to put a name to) to make it seem as if you had any real experience.

:rolleyes:

Take your retard pills and call me in the morning.

[unkokusai]

In other words, I was right.

[HardWork8]

In other words, I was right.
:rolleyes:

[Jim Roselando]

I'm sure all you guys have heard the legend that the ultimate South Fist Fighting art is a combo of Southern Mantis Legs and Wing Chun Hands.

hahaha


The Centerline theory of Mantis is not so different from most WC in application. They both more likely share root in Fukien Crane mother system but both had a different influence building the last or final stages (paradigm shift) of development in Southern Fist Boxing IMO. One using the a more flexible South Bow and the other using Soft Engine. Structure, Conditioning & Mechanics is where the major difference lay!

[HardWork8]

I'm sure all you guys have heard the legend that the ultimate South Fist Fighting art is a combo of Southern Mantis Legs and Wing Chun Hands.

hahaha


The Centerline theory of Mantis is not so different from most WC in application. They both more likely share root in Fukien Crane mother system but both had a different influence building the last or final stages (paradigm shift) of development in Southern Fist Boxing IMO. One using the a more flexible South Bow and the other using Soft Engine. Structure, Conditioning & Mechanics is where the major difference lay!


As far as my understanding of Chow Gar is concerned, it seems that they hardly use any body/stance shifting. Is that your experience of Southern Mantis?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


As far as my understanding of Chow Gar is concerned, it seems that they hardly use any body/stance shifting. Is that your experience of Southern Mantis?

Yes. They waist torque left/right and side step but do not "Shift" from what I have been exposed to! The structure, conditioning, mechanics and theory is a bit different. 3 Step Shoot Out versus Little Detail Come Accept (loi lao)

[HardWork8]

Hello,


As far as my understanding of Chow Gar is concerned, it seems that they hardly use any body/stance shifting. Is that your experience of Southern Mantis?

Yes. They waist torque left/right and side step but do not "Shift" from what I have been exposed to! The structure, conditioning, mechanics and theory is a bit different. 3 Step Shoot Out versus Little Detail Come Accept (loi lao)

Were you exposed to their tendon training exercises? As these are apparently the exercises that help their practitioners develop a solid body and body unity.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Were you exposed to their tendon training exercises? As these are apparently the exercises that help their practitioners develop a solid body and body unity.

All excellent stuff for the South Bow art. The arm grinding and dip gwat gong is pretty awesome stuff. This is where the big difference is between arts. South Mantis is not Rou Jing. Both excellent just a bit different. JR

[KPM]

Hey Jim!

The Centerline theory of Mantis is not so different from most WC in application.

---One difference that I have noticed....its seems that the Mantis approach is more to "clear the zone", so they keep the hands "floating" and moving more. As compared to the Wing Chun approach which is more to "guard the center", so we tend to keep the hands aligned right on the centerline.

Structure, Conditioning & Mechanics is where the major difference lay!

---I think you are right. That's where I think that the structural changes I have made to my Wing Chun has brought it closer to that Wing Chun -- Mantis "overlap." I put more emphasis on "forward pressure" than most. I keep the weight centered at the K1 point rather than the heels. In a forward stance I but the emphasis on the front leg rather than the rear leg. I try to move from the Kwa and tend to use "waist torque" more than full pivots. I generate power with a "wave action" up the torso and out the arms. I like to keep the hands floating and "loose." These are things that have come natural to me and have felt "right". I'm seeing now that these are things that are also generally found in the Hakka arts. But I also like the way the curriculum is organized in Pin Sun. I've broken sections of the Yip Man forms down to San Sik for practice and to teach to my students. I apply each of them on the dummy and in a two-man format. So what has been naturally evolving for me is a version of Wing Chun based on San Sik practice that is acquiring more and more of a "southern mantis" influence.

[Jim Roselando]

Kieth,



The Centerline theory of Mantis is not so different from most WC in application. jr

---One difference that I have noticed....its seems that the Mantis approach is more to "clear the zone", so they keep the hands "floating" and moving more. As compared to the Wing Chun approach which is more to "guard the center", so we tend to keep the hands aligned right on the centerline.


This is the Hut Yee Sao (Beggars Hand) method. They leave the door open, inviting /drawing you in, and then slam the door shut pressing the centerline and cog etc.. They do box according to the centerline tho but the open door policy is different from WCK. JR

[Jim Roselando]

1956 Jook Lum Movie Clip!

Look! Yim Wing Chun was supervising the training!

hahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZHpJUC2B_g

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,

Have you watched:

Unbeatable Dragon!


This Hong Kong movie was featuring Wing Chun, Southern Mantis and some Pole stuff. Real fun movie. Well, there is a Chow Gar guy who plays the South Mantis Hero!

Here is a clip of him training! Remember, Hong Kong Play Movie! Nothing more!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFySwF7VSC8&feature=related


If you haven't seen it, and you are a Wing Chun or South Mantis junkie, then get a copy for your collection!


N-Joy

:cool:

[Jim Roselando]

Prodical Son

Wing Chun versus Dragon Style:

Classic HK Fight Scene!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYdQ7TQ5NfY&feature=related

[KPM]

This is the Hut Yee Sao (Beggars Hand) method. They leave the door open, inviting /drawing you in, and then slam the door shut pressing the centerline and cog etc.. They do box according to the centerline tho but the open door policy is different from WCK. JR

Thanks for the feedback Jim! Glad to see that your experience matches my limited observations. :)

[kismet]

There is still chu gar in HK. They are all very similar from what I have seen of iron ox, hk jook lum, hk chu gar, chow gar. The similarities between them is uncanny.

Sure there maybe slight differences but overall the underlying relationships, forms, techniques....same pretty much! Check out youtube and you'll see it.