If you were Fat and Stiff . ..

[wudangquan]

Hi,

I'm going to ask about this far and wide, because I really need good answers . . .

I'm about to begin training martial arts full time (6 hours a day, maybe).

The reason is because I've let my health degenerate so badly that I have to make a drastic change. Let's just say I'm less than adonyssian at this point.

So I want to get as much information as possible. If you were going to go into training a traditional martial art, more or less blind, and you were

-fat
-oldish
-had low physical endurance
-were basically inflexible

What would you do to remedy the problems as quickly as possible?

Can anyone suggest a basic training routine, without knowing to many details?

Thanks

[Mr Punch]

Welcome to the board.

You might get a bit of a rough ride round here, but just because people answer these questions a lot and they're not easy questions. But there are a lot of people on here who know a lot about nutrition and exercise.

One thing I would not recommend to attain a reasonable level of flexibility, endurance, strength and weight loss is NOT to entertain any ideas of training for six hours a day.

That would be a very hard routine: I know young, fit, strong, supple martial artists who wouldn't be able to take that - what makes you think you could? Not being harsh, but one thing vital for an achievable goal set is to be realistic.

You're going to have to give people more specifics, but the first thing people will say round here is:

It's not just exercise, but it's also (mostly) diet that's going to need and initiate the biggest changes.

Small meals, with two hours break between them if you can. Make sure you include one (whole?) piece of veg or fruit, at least about 20gms of protein (how much you actually need depends on your bodyweight but anyway, 20-40 gms is all most bodies can digest in 2 hours), carbs like bread, pasta etc in pre and post workout meals. The high protein is vital for two reasons:

1) Protein suppresses appetite.
2) It will keep/upgrade (!) your muscle fibre.

You say oldish? Take amino supplements and essential fish oils. You're going to need them for your joints and muscle repair.

You might want to take on board the Japanese expression 'hara hachibu'. 'Hara' means stomach/guts, and 'hachibu' means 'eight tenths/80%'. It's basically a proscription on overeating, but I find it helps: eat until you think you've got about 20% capacity left. It trains you into thinking about it.

And that's before the training!

I'm going to leave you to the tender hands of the rest of the board (I don't know much about this stuff). You'll get lot's of advice, some conflicting, and probably start an argument! But, you will find some real nuggets... of something! :D

[NJM]

Joint supplements.

[David Jamieson]

Hi,

I'm going to ask about this far and wide, because I really need good answers . . .

I'm about to begin training martial arts full time (6 hours a day, maybe).

The reason is because I've let my health degenerate so badly that I have to make a drastic change. Let's just say I'm less than adonyssian at this point.

So I want to get as much information as possible. If you were going to go into training a traditional martial art, more or less blind, and you were

-fat
-oldish
-had low physical endurance
-were basically inflexible

What would you do to remedy the problems as quickly as possible?

Can anyone suggest a basic training routine, without knowing to many details?

Thanks

Hey.

6 hours a day = No, don't do that right away. :)

If you have 6 hours a day to spend, then you want to gradually put yourself into shape.

start with walking at a brisk pace to induce cardio. walk to break a sweat and raise your heart rate into the fat burning zone and keep it there for as long as you can without robbing glycogens through raising the count.

so, walk, walk brickly and do that for about 2 months.

with this, every 2nd day, add isolation weight lifting routines.

so, walk everyday and every second day:

- Do chest and arms
- Do legs and Back
- Do full body routine

do ab workouts as well with crunches, leg raises and supermans. on the second days with the weights.

after about 2 or 3 month you should have lost some weight but there is also a dietary question.

to shed fat and get lean, you need less carbs, more protein and good cardio sessions.

it's equally important to eat right. If you continue with too much processed foods then it will take a lot longer to shed those pounds and restabilize your core.
onceyou restabilize your core and have some strength. You can up the reps and vigour of your work outs.

when you get to where you want to be, find a maintanace series of routines that will keep you there and continue on with the better diet.

heavy fat shedding equals lots of cardio and lots of proteins and few carbs.

muscle and endurance building equals - lots of complex carbs and fuel carbs with same proteins for recovery and muscle building.

reduce sugars and salts that are not naturally occuring.
take multi vitamins

commit!

[David Jamieson]

also, stretching routines and maybe some lessons in yoga and tai chi will gradually get that stiffness away.

everything can be returned to an optimum state.

It takes a little time, some patience and much work. :)

seriously though, you mainly have to commit to succeed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hi,

I'm going to ask about this far and wide, because I really need good answers . . .

I'm about to begin training martial arts full time (6 hours a day, maybe).

The reason is because I've let my health degenerate so badly that I have to make a drastic change. Let's just say I'm less than adonyssian at this point.

So I want to get as much information as possible. If you were going to go into training a traditional martial art, more or less blind, and you were

-fat
-oldish
-had low physical endurance
-were basically inflexible

What would you do to remedy the problems as quickly as possible?

Can anyone suggest a basic training routine, without knowing to many details?

Thanks

Any health issues we shoudl know about?
I assume you have gone to a doctor and he has OK'd you starting a physical exercise program.

[bodhitree]

If you practice 6 hours a day from the start, you'll probably get sick. Your body will not be used to such activity, and being sick will make everything worse. Start off gradual, then see where to go from there.


Train smart then hard!

[TenTigers]

for cardio, I would suggest an elliptical trainer, swimming, and walking-easier on the joints. Then after a good solid month, add 10 second sprints,one minute low intensity-start with 5 sprints, then work to 6,8,10. Sprints will shed bodyfat pounds,increase heart rate and oxygen intake, while releasing growth hormone.

For flexibility, start with 18 Lohan Chi Kung-do a search on youtube. It has elements of yoga,eight pieces of brocade, and others, done slowly, it stretches the joints, and sinews, opens up the meridians, and is an easy start-going into yoga when you're overweight/out of shape can be frustrating and discouraging.
Save the yoga for the second month.

Add weight training to your workout, one exercise per bodypart, one set-15 reps.
(not easy reps, but to failure)Do this three times a week.

on the alternate days, do ten reps of your basic kicks, punches, and combos. Then do six rounds of one minute each on the heavybag. Nothing too intense, but just to get your body and mind geared up for the workouts to come.

You need to develop a feeling of accomplishment, which will inspire you to train, not beat the sh1t out of yourself causing you to throw in the towel and quit.
Trust me, this is way more intense than the average sedentary person, but it's not impossible/ Then you can increase the intensity.

Take a whey supplement such as Muscle Milk lite. after your workouts, to maintain muscle mass.
Drink plenty of water.
Have lean protien, low glycemic carbs. Don't eat starchy carbs after noon.
Eat fruit. Salads, fresh vegies. Ken's Steakhouse makes a great lite ceasare.
or you can use balsamic vinegar.

Keep a journal, and a wall calender.Write down your goals for the Month,week, day.
Stay off the scale. Instead, use how you feel, how your body feels, and how your clothes fit as an indicator.
Keep us posted.

[SoCo KungFu]

commit!

Now you have a laundry list of suggestions to play out. But I just want to highlight, this one word is the most important one written. Whatever routine you work out with your doc, you won't get anywhere without a firm commitment to change.

[bodhitree]

when you choose an activity, make sure it's something you enjoy (or can enjoy) doing. Go for hikes outside, play flag football, whatever the hell will keep you motivated and having fun.

[No_Know]

Small movements. To your limits then breathe into pressing far ther. Get to the end then will it ****her. Go bigger then undo. Because you will shrink after stretch end stretching with ****hest/ bigest stretch sort of thing.

The training will condition you when you start. You should be understood and tasked in proportion with what is good for you to the art and what you should be able to handle if you want to excel. Follow the guidelines set to you by them.

Before then I recommend multiple sessions of ten seconds. Holding your leg up. Bending at the waist(feet flat). Duration exercises--neck rotation (be mindful of pinched feeling...arm rotaton (small rotations to start ever widening as you proceed.

Doing whatever at ten second intervals should allow you to do more, be rested, and allow you to strengthen...my say.

No_Know

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i disagree only with the strength training advice given thus far. i wouldnt bother with isolation movements or reps above 5 - 8 unless you want to bodybuild, which is awesome, but that doesn't sound like your goal.

strength training should be directed towards getting strong and only about getting strong. all other aspects of training and health are equally important, but are trained seperately.

start with big compound movements. squats, deadlifts, overhead presses, bench presses, chins, dips, and rows should be the core of your strength training. if you have someone who can teach you how to properly clean and press (or snatch for that matter) all the better. strength training doesnt have to be complicated, espeically if you're training for overall health. lift heavy and go home.

ive personally seen great results from a very simple program designed by mark ripptoe.

link to great write up on it: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224

meat and taters of it:

Workout A 3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Power cleans (or barbell rows)
You train on 3 nonconsecutive days per week.

So week 1 might look like:
Monday - Workout A
Wednesday - Workout B
Friday - Workout A

Week 2:
Monday - Workout B
Wednesday - Workout A
Friday - Workout B

this routine is simple, to the point, leaves you plenty of time for all of your other training, and most importantly its very effective.

[WinterPalm]

I'm assuming you'll have an instructor?

Do their warmup and workout routine, unless too intense, and practice your technique. Don't do anything else.
Results will come and later on you can add other things.

Keep it simple at first or you'll burn out...things can get complicated very fast.

[shyphoenix]

I think everyone here has said and will say to go slowly (no 6 hrs) and incorporate flexibility training and core conditioning with major supervision. Basically if you are weak, old, or out of shape, build from the inside out or you will get sick.

I'd start with internal work like qigong or tai chi, and some yoga or pilates to improve your flexibility and conditioning. Then start heavily introducing a rotation of swimming, weights, more spirited aerobic workouts etc as your body can accommodate them as other people suggest in the thread.

It's okay to walk everyday until you are strong enough to run. I just think of it this way when I get the urge to overdo my workouts--if your body breaks from overuse, it will go out of commission and you will get fat again waiting for it to heal.

[Mr Punch]

i disagree only with the strength training advice given thus far. i wouldnt bother with isolation movements or reps above 5 - 8...

strength training should be directed towards getting strong and only about getting strong. all other aspects of training and health are equally important, but are trained seperately...

start with big compound movements. squats, deadlifts, overhead presses, bench presses, chins, dips, and rows should be the core of your strength training.Excellent advice. It's a waste of time doing 'isolation' exercises: studies have shown that 40-60% higher strength gains are made with full body x 3 / wk than isolation x 3 / wk, and similar results with weight loss.

This (http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=fitness&category=muscle.building&topic=total.body&conitem=f8fb200525cca010VgnVCM100000cfe793cd____) is excellent and explains why what GDA just said makes sense.

Having said that, you can learn a lot by reading all of these (http://www.alwyncosgrove.com/Articles.html), which will explain some simple stuff that people ignore, such as don't load with weights before you can handle the same exercises with bodyweight only (your body isn't going to be able to handle squats with 100, 50 or even 20 kgs if it can't handle squats with nothing in your hands!) plus some excellent advice on designing programmes to keep interested, mixing between strength, metabolic work and building etc.


I think everyone here has said and will say to go slowly (no 6 hrs) and incorporate flexibility training and core conditioning with major supervision. Basically if you are weak, old, or out of shape, build from the inside out or you will get sick. That's good advice too, and in line with starting off with bodyweight stuff. Every session should start off with simple stretches within an easy range of flexibility: Google Dr William McGill's core lower back stretches - they're for rehab, really gentle, but vital.


I'd start with internal work like qigong or tai chi, and some yoga or pilates to improve your flexibility and conditioning. Then start heavily introducing a rotation of swimming, weights, more spirited aerobic workouts etc as your body can accommodate them as other people suggest in the thread.Yoga and chi kung are not exclusive to any f the other stuff on this thread. It might help you to keep your motivation up if you vary your exercise programmes, but OTOH if you try too many at first you may get tired out. So, although starting with something 'internal' may be a good idea, don't leave it too long before you start with something a bit more vigorous.

BTW, I wouldn't recommend yoga at all: it won't help you with your weight, and even beginners' courses are pretty physically demanding and for stiff, overweight people there's a large chance of damaging your body before you even start. Look at gymnasts: flexibility and strength together often come at a price in later life.

Light strength building stuff first, remembering to stretch out at the end, then after a few weeks maybe look into finding yourself a good yoga teacher.

[Mr Punch]

McGill (http://www.ahs.uwaterloo.ca/~mcgill/fitnessleadersguide.pdf)










.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

DO NOT READ THIS POST IF YOU HAVE NO INTEREST IN THE FINER POINTS OF STRENGTH TRAINING!!! SERIOUSLY ... IT WILL BORE YOU TO TEARS.


This (http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=fitness&category=muscle.building&topic=total.body&conitem=f8fb200525cca010VgnVCM100000cfe793cd____) is excellent and explains why what GDA just said makes sense.


while i agree with the general message of the article there are some key points i have issues with.

for overall strength and athletic performance, full body workouts are great, but i think the article oversimplifies this and ignores a lot of other factors. bodybuilders "isoloate" muscle groups and work on splits for a reason. full body routines are great up to a certain point, but even if you aren't a professional bodybuilder, there may come a time that your chest overshadows your back, or your calves are small compared to your quads and hammies. in such cases you may want to give these bodyparts a little extra love. also, splits offer a variety to training and can keep things from getting monotonous after doing full body workouts for a length of time. also, after one has gained a significant amount of strenght (with or without gaining a significant amount of size), i really wouldnt recommend deadlifting more than once a week. again ... i do agree full body routines are ideal for the general athlete; however, there are few sports that have relied on science as much as bodybuilding, so i wouldnt throw the baby out with the bathwater.


"Go heavy or go home" is a common saying among bodybuilders. But, while it's crucial that you use a weight that provides a challenging load, the mantra is flawed. That's because muscle fibers can grow in two ways. The first is when the myofibrils -- the parts of the fiber that contain the contracting proteins -- increase in number and density. This type of growth leads to strength gains and can be accomplished by using heavy weights that allow only one to seven repetitions. The second type of growth, however, occurs when your muscles are forced to contract for longer periods of time. Typically, this means using lighter loads that allow you to complete 12 to 15 repetitions. This increases the number of energy-producing structures within the fiber. So you don't get significantly stronger, but you do get bigger.


on one hand, i find it slightly irritating that this information is given as if its something new. its presented as if there's a single powerlifter or bodybuilder on earth who didn't already know this, and they werent simply rehashing the info for the sake of those who are new to training. on the other hand, presentation aside, im very happy to hear a mainstream magazine finally get it right, and not recommend doing endless repetitons to "tone up" and avoid heavy weights if you dont want to "get too bulky" as if getting big happens all by itself.



For example, let's say it takes 5 seconds to complete one repetition. This means one set of eight repetitions would place your muscles under tension for 40 seconds. So, using Cosgrove's theory, you'd need to do only three sets -- for a total of 120 seconds -- to perform enough exercise to stimulate muscle growth. Likewise with four sets of five repetitions or two sets of 12 repetitions.



However, even Cosgrove admits that this is more theory than fact, primarily for one reason: Human studies simply haven't compared a wide variety of set and repetition ranges or even controlled for the duration of muscle tension. So there's simply no data to draw from. At least not until you look elsewhere in the animal kingdom.

actually this has been studied extensively for many years. most of this stuff is over my head, but the ideal rep range is 25 - 30 reps ... how you get there depends on your goals. on opposite ends of the spectrum, powerlifters may do speed training with 10 sets of 3, while bodybuilders will perform the same exercise and do 3 sets of 10. 4 x 6, 5 x 5, 6 x 4, and 3 x 8 are also very common rep schemes. also the article mentions mixing togeather these rep schemes kind of all willy nilly through the week ....
For instance, he might prescribe five repetitions of each exercise on Monday, 15 on Wednesday, and 10 on Friday. " ..... while this might be ok sorta, its not the smartest or most "scientific" approach to strength training. again ... this stuff is a little over my head, but the science of periodization has been well established and researched from little hole in the wall powerlifting gyms to the top strength coaches responsible for placing weightlifters into the olympics. coaches have devised many ways of altering volume and intensity for proven optimal results. a program may have you keep volume the same while increasing intensity, start with high volume low intensity and move towards low volume high intensity, or (less commonly) keep intensity relativley consistant while increasing volume. theres linear periodization which is used the most in america, and conjugate periodiztion which was adopted and made popular by west side. this isn't something ive read into extensively, but it just hit a nerve to hear someone say that it was something that "is more theory than fact [because] studies simply haven't compared a wide variety of set and repetition ranges or even controlled for the duration of muscle tension.'

i apologize for the long winded response, especially considering the fact that i was picking at details, but these things bother me and i had to vent.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

http://www.alwyncosgrove.com/SevenHabits.html
And I don't mean to "bag" on bodybuilding. One can't help but be impressed by top athletes in any sport. But the fact that it is a sport is also an important thing to remember. Bodybuilding is a unique sport unto itself. For the general fitness enthusiast (i.e. not a competitive bodybuilder) to develop and implement a fitness program using bodybuilding theory and bodybuilding type exercises makes as much sense as using soccer training or racquetball to design that same program. And while most people recognize that this is idiotic at best, we still continue to talk about splitting up "body parts" and following a bodybuilding-based program.

Now, that's not to say we don't use exercises or ideas from all sports and systems (remember, absorb what is useful…) To do so would be closed-minded. But to adopt any one single philosophy is just as closed-minded.


see ... now this guy is speaking my language.

[Mr Punch]

see ... now this guy is speaking my language.It's the same guy. Actually he does say the same thing in the first article I linked to directly (and the same as you): bodybuilders split for a reason.


... but even if you aren't a professional bodybuilder, there may come a time that your chest overshadows your back, or your calves are small compared to your quads and hammies. in such cases you may want to give these bodyparts a little extra love...He says that too, if not in that article then certainly in many others.


on one hand, i find it slightly irritating that this information is given as if its something new. its presented as if there's a single powerlifter or bodybuilder on earth who didn't already know this, and they werent simply rehashing the info for the sake of those who are new to training.Yeah well, it IS Men's Health. I think you're overestimating average human intelligence.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

It's the same guy. Actually he does say the same thing in the first article I linked to directly (and the same as you): bodybuilders split for a reason.

haha ... so much for details when i completely ignore who the author is.



Yeah well, it IS Men's Health. I think you're overestimating average human intelligence.

fair enough.

[David Jamieson]

so you don't agree with curls, dips, rows, french curls, hammer curls, lunges, squats etc. cohen curls, preacher curl, flys, back flys...and so on which all work specific muscle groups and ion effect isolate those groups and are isolation.

I think we need to look at what you see as isolation.
I don't advocate it as the totality of strength development and would also throw in a crap load of the body weight work such as chins and pullups, pushups, crunches, plyo et al.

so what are you guys defining as isolation and under which terms? I don't get how all that stuff i listed wouldn't develop strength. It's been shown to and I've done it myself. Maybe I'm just not getting your perspective on it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

so you don't agree with curls, dips, rows, french curls, hammer curls, lunges, squats etc. cohen curls, preacher curl, flys, back flys...and so on which all work specific muscle groups and ion effect isolate those groups and are isolation.

I think we need to look at what you see as isolation.
I don't advocate it as the totality of strength development and would also throw in a crap load of the body weight work such as chins and pullups, pushups, crunches, plyo et al.

so what are you guys defining as isolation and under which terms? I don't get how all that stuff i listed wouldn't develop strength. It's been shown to and I've done it myself. Maybe I'm just not getting your perspective on it?

Concentration curls, for example, that isolate the biceps is an isolation move.
A chin that hist the biceps, as well as the lats and rear delts and so on, is a compound move.

Dips are compound moves, rows are compound moves, anything that gets multiple muscle groups in action are compounds.

Now, that said, even isolation moves CAN build strength, try doing a one arm DB curl with 100 lbs and tel me you are not strong.

[David Jamieson]

there really aren't a lot of exercises you can do as isolations really.

cohen / preacher / concerntartion curls only work bicep
Lying down tricep lifts only work tri's

most other stuff is centric but still is compound as well.
so lats get a huge bit of work from say a row, but there are other muscle groups invoved in carrying out the movement.

anyway. lifting is only part oft he overall package.

fitness is what this guy needs first and that will come through activity that breaks a sweat and maintains a zone heart beat for 20-30 minute intervals.

In the end, the exact type of exercise isn't as relevant as the fact that you are indeed exercising! :)

[David Jamieson]

oh, and if you smoke, stop.

if you are eating a lot of crap, stop that too and get some dietary/nutritional advice from a nutritionist.

be very moderate in alcohol consumption.

keep negative thoughts and people out of your life when possible.

work with someone who is stronger than you.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

so what are you guys defining as isolation and under which terms? I don't get how all that stuff i listed wouldn't develop strength. It's been shown to and I've done it myself. Maybe I'm just not getting your perspective on it?

almost everything in my entire workout last night was isolation movements. barbell curls with skull crushers, (chins and dips - not isolation), hammer curls with standing french presses, supersetted this weird seated bar curl with your elbows way back and only moving from stomach to chest with laying cable curls, then supersetted seated french curls with laying tri kickbacks, followed by rolling wrist curls and reverse curls.

but see ... that entire workout was based purely on asthetics. i want bigger arms. tonight ill follow squats with isolation movements for the legs like leg extentions and leg curls.

sanjuro is right ... isolation movements can build strength, but usually this type of strength is limited to that particular movement and has littel carry over to the real world. take curls for example ... being good at the curling movement might help you hold out in an arm bar to get better positioning or lift up small children who like to hang on your forearms, but the functional application is limmited. squats have improved my jumping ability - not so much as the oly lifts, but there was definitely marked improvement as my squat went up. i dont think leg curls or leg extentions will ever provide that benifit.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

also sorry for sidetracking the thread ..... david is right and the most important thing is to just start doing something. even if its 10 mins a day instead of 6 hours a day its a good start ... once you get your foot in the door and consistantly dedicate a part of your day to fitness, no matter how small, it gets easier to build from there.

[David Jamieson]

gda-

just post a couple of your skinny ass pictures, your chemo pics and your pics now. Maybe that'll inspire him.

you were a skinny little bugger a few years ago and now you are in pretty good shape. Use that! :)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

prechemolicious (http://a902.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/26/l_4069e2cebbec6abcf130024ed3950185.jpg)

chemofabulous (http://a679.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/43/l_d9e79850c01e2c62810c77674330ad0e.jpg)

chemovictorious (http://a216.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/93/l_ef3187c2d652044e52a9fb8d66e0f96f.jpg)

[David Jamieson]

fuggin a.

testify!

:D

[Seppukku]

So I want to get as much information as possible. If you were going to go into training a traditional martial art, more or less blind, and you were

-fat
-oldish
-had low physical endurance
-were basically inflexible

What would you do to remedy the problems as quickly as possible?

Can anyone suggest a basic training routine, without knowing to many details?

Thanks

I hear Lama Pai can help you with some of that. But if that doesn't work, you could always try some SanDa.