Cross Training---Belts?

[KFNOOB]

Do people that cross train various arts for MMA or SD purposes train as normal MA students do going from white to black belt with normal classes or are they training more informally in these arts and focusing only on what they "need" thereby passing up on belts and not even belt testing...just training?

[SoCo KungFu]

I can only speak for the gym I'm in but...

MT and boxing don't have belts. You do have the option to purchase some colorful shorts though :)

BJJ yes we have belts. But progression isn't a formal thing like people get accustomed to in the typical karate school or whatever. You beat a couple guys in a tournament. You might get a belt. You tap a few purples (or whatever higher rank than you) over the course of a couple weeks in training. You might get a belt.

Rank isn't even secondary really. Belts are there but really what's more important is what you can do. Half of the guys don't even wear a gi, even on gi night.

[KFNOOB]

Is it like that in Judo also?

Forgot that MT doesnt have ranks...oooops.

[BruceSteveRoy]

judo has belts.

[KFNOOB]

I know Judo has belts but how are they earned?

Is it x number of techniques etc or as BJJ is decribed above?

[Pork Chop]

Thailand's been trying to implement a ranking structure for Muay Thai for the past few years.
I believe the purpose was to try implement some sort of officially recognized teaching certification.
Not sure how many gyms actually prescribe to the ranking structure though.

[BruceSteveRoy]

its a lot like bjj belt promotion. i know when i got my first belt promotion (from white to yellow) it was the coach telling me to demonstrate techniques, and there was a written part, and at the end he had me go against a yellow belt. i don't think i had to win as much as he wanted to see me attempting moves to the best of my ability and show that i could handle myself. but i know that one of my classmates earned his black belt in a tournament in japan. so i think it depends on how far into the ranks you are how they award belts.

[KFNOOB]

So these guys training for MMA arent going the traditional route. They may have that in their background but now may be less concerned with ranks than what's needed to better their game?

Reason I ask is can anyone walk into a school and request to just train and not worry about belts and ranks....or in the case of BJJ/Judo just take the ranks as (or if) they come?

Or is someone like that better off in MT or Boxing to avoid all that?

[1bad65]

Reason I ask is can anyone walk into a school and request to just train and not worry about belts and ranks....or in the case of BJJ/Judo just take the ranks as (or if) they come?

That's how my gym is. Of course if someone new has some skills, someone will ask what his experience is.

Belt rank is not as big a deal in BJJ/MMA as in TMA.

[Fox]

I myself train to add to what I already know. The more you learn, the better instructor you become.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You cross train for a mired of reasons:
Variety
Fill in the gabs of an existing system
To "know they enemy"
Etc.
I don't know of any ( though I am sure there are some) that cross train for "belts".
The vast majority to it to be better MA, just like the old timers did.

[KFNOOB]

Understood.

What I'm asking is for example...I am going to class every Tuesday and Thursday night..I have belt tesat next week. Guy next to me is just training to have Variety, Fill in gaps etc. with no concern for belts.

Can I just train like that without fighting goals?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Understood.

What I'm asking is for example...I am going to class every Tuesday and Thursday night..I have belt tesat next week. Guy next to me is just training to have Variety, Fill in gaps etc. with no concern for belts.

Can I just train like that without fighting goals?

You can train however you want, free country.:D

[KFNOOB]

How does the person not advancing train in the more advanced classes within the curriculum. Or are MMA fighters just perfecting basics?

[BruceSteveRoy]

from what i can tell the thing with the mma training is that it isn't your rank that signifies your level of ability but rather your performance. so if you are looking at it in terms of learning the 'advanced' curriculum it would be dependent upon your ability to use it.

with typical martial arts that rely on a ranking system they will teach forms or kata or techniques based on your belt/sash/whatever. that maintains a hierarchy within a school and system. with schools that aren't focused on having a hierarchy or ranks they will teach you to your ability and then help you to manage the things that you find more difficult. so the idea is to teach you techniques that you can and will use rather than just the ones appropriate for your rank.

i am not sure if that makes sense. i have been having a hard time collecting my thoughts today. stupid jet lag.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How does the person not advancing train in the more advanced classes within the curriculum. Or are MMA fighters just perfecting basics?

You talk about "perfecting basics" as "just".
That is the incorrect attitude to have, the core of any system IS the system.


from what i can tell the thing with the mma training is that it isn't your rank that signifies your level of ability but rather your performance. so if you are looking at it in terms of learning the 'advanced' curriculum it would be dependent upon your ability to use it.

with typical martial arts that rely on a ranking system they will teach forms or kata or techniques based on your belt/sash/whatever. that maintains a hierarchy within a school and system. with schools that aren't focused on having a hierarchy or ranks they will teach you to your ability and then help you to manage the things that you find more difficult. so the idea is to teach you techniques that you can and will use rather than just the ones appropriate for your rank.

i am not sure if that makes sense. i have been having a hard time collecting my thoughts today. stupid jet lag.

Results oriented systems work like that.

[monji112000]

Do people that cross train various arts for MMA or SD purposes train as normal MA students do going from white to black belt with normal classes or are they training more informally in these arts and focusing only on what they "need" thereby passing up on belts and not even belt testing...just training?

belts are a funny thing, they really mean nothing. Some people make a big deal about them.. but Honestly I think they hinder more than they help. I like the hole levels idea, and have a set curriculum for each level. Its somewhat a semantic and in a way I am splitting hairs but its not the same thing. I think I talked to Dave Ross(owner of NYSANDA) about this topic before.

Why would training with people have anything to do with belt? I roll (No Gi and GI grappling) with people who range from white to black. I submit blues sometimes and get submitted by whites(although I will say its much really rarely happens THANK G-D!).

The gym I train at, and my JJ coach teaches one class for all levels. At first I hated this idea.. I was stuck learning hard moves, that I couldn't do.. and never getting enough time with the basics. The funny thing is I'm happy he teaches this way. It forces me to put forth the effort to ask, research, and drill. I can honestly say that I would not have progressed as fast if my Coach didn't teach in this manner.
Thats me, I know for a fact that MANY of his students do not understand the basics. Thats just understanding, I'm not talking about the muscle memory or the fine details just.. the basic ideas. They didn't put forth the effort I did.

Its all based on personal teaching style. If I owned or had my own class/school I would combine the two extremes. Have a basics class and have mostly open classes, were everyone rolls with everyone. Just as a point that is how NYSANDA does things. Its a very smart method, and I'm happy they do it that way.

But to continue the question about belts, allot of people get upset if you hold two belts in different styles. Sometimes teachers feel that its a insult to them or their skills. I can honestly understand, but if you study two different styles it should not be a issue. EXAMPLE MT and BJJ/sambo/csw/ect..

Some schools are very very strict about the belt thing, and those schools tend to suck (JMO). If you go to a school with a specific family name (everyone knows the name), I tend to find the belt issue a big deal.

again, the schools (not the teachers or the family or the style) tend to suck and you often get much less for your money.

JMO

If you live in NY come train with us, I know for a fact Dave doesn't care who you trained with or what belt you have. His only deal is come without the ego, and keep your hands up. :D

Don't you love the Carmine Zocchi/ NYSANDA plug Dave?
oh forgot the website... http://nysanda.com and http://www.geocities.com/carmine.zocchi/

[Fox]

belts are a funny thing, they really mean nothing. Some people make a big deal about them.. but Honestly I think they hinder more than they help. I like the hole levels idea, and have a set curriculum for each level. Its somewhat a semantic and in a way I am splitting hairs but its not the same thing. I think I talked to Dave Ross(owner of NYSANDA) about this topic before.

Why would training with people have anything to do with belt? I roll (No Gi and GI grappling) with people who range from white to black. I submit blues sometimes and get submitted by whites(although I will say its much really rarely happens THANK G-D!).

The gym I train at, and my JJ coach teaches one class for all levels. At first I hated this idea.. I was stuck learning hard moves, that I couldn't do.. and never getting enough time with the basics. The funny thing is I'm happy he teaches this way. It forces me to put forth the effort to ask, research, and drill. I can honestly say that I would not have progressed as fast if my Coach didn't teach in this manner.
Thats me, I know for a fact that MANY of his students do not understand the basics. Thats just understanding, I'm not talking about the muscle memory or the fine details just.. the basic ideas. They didn't put forth the effort I did.

Its all based on personal teaching style. If I owned or had my own class/school I would combine the two extremes. Have a basics class and have mostly open classes, were everyone rolls with everyone. Just as a point that is how NYSANDA does things. Its a very smart method, and I'm happy they do it that way.

But to continue the question about belts, allot of people get upset if you hold two belts in different styles. Sometimes teachers feel that its a insult to them or their skills. I can honestly understand, but if you study two different styles it should not be a issue. EXAMPLE MT and BJJ/sambo/csw/ect..

Some schools are very very strict about the belt thing, and those schools tend to suck (JMO). If you go to a school with a specific family name (everyone knows the name), I tend to find the belt issue a big deal.

again, the schools (not the teachers or the family or the style) tend to suck and you often get much less for your money.

JMO

If you live in NY come train with us, I know for a fact Dave doesn't care who you trained with or what belt you have. His only deal is come without the ego, and keep your hands up. :D

Don't you love the Carmine Zocchi/ NYSANDA plug Dave?
oh forgot the website... http://nysanda.com and http://www.geocities.com/carmine.zocchi/

Years ago, when I was doing TSD, I had to go up against Brown Belts, because of my age. Yes, I am an old timer..LOL. I was a white belt at the time. So belts really do not anything.

[1bad65]

If you go to a school with a specific family name (everyone knows the name), I tend to find the belt issue a big deal.

I train at a Renzo Gracie affiliate and this is not true at my gym. We actually have a guy who had around 10 amateur and 10 pro MMA fights before the instructor 'officially' awarded him his blue belt. It was just not a big deal to the fighter or my instructor so it just did not get done for years.

[monji112000]

I train at a Renzo Gracie affiliate and this is not true at my gym. We actually have a guy who had around 10 amateur and 10 pro MMA fights before the instructor 'officially' awarded him his blue belt. It was just not a big deal to the fighter or my instructor so it just did not get done for years.

Its good to hear that, but I have visited a few Gracie Barra places and the Big Renzo school.

The Big Renzo school seemed ok. I wouldn't join the school, but not becouse I thought they didn't teach quality stuff. I'm sure they do..

Every Gracie Barra school I have visited I have really really not liked. MMA isn't just BJJ... the ground game isn't just BJJ ... not that you were saying it was.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Belts have always been a big thing in BJJ, always.
Remember the "stigma" of being a BJJ Black belt? or how a Blue was like a black in other schools, etc, etc.
Silliness, but there you have it.

[David Jamieson]

Understood.

What I'm asking is for example...I am going to class every Tuesday and Thursday night..I have belt tesat next week. Guy next to me is just training to have Variety, Fill in gaps etc. with no concern for belts.

Can I just train like that without fighting goals?

Make your personal Kungfu your goal instead of a belt and yes indeed you can train without them.

You cannot succeed without goals though in my opinion. Just re-prioritize those goals away from being awarded something and instead take your reward in improved health, skill and ability. :)

[MasterKiller]

I train at a Renzo Gracie affiliate and this is not true at my gym. We actually have a guy who had around 10 amateur and 10 pro MMA fights before the instructor 'officially' awarded him his blue belt. It was just not a big deal to the fighter or my instructor so it just did not get done for years.

Well, to be honest, MANY BJJ schools sandbag students (hold them back) so they can compete against lower levels in tournaments and bring home lots of trophies for the club.

[1bad65]

Well, to be honest, MANY BJJ schools sandbag students (hold them back) so they can compete against lower levels in tournaments and bring home lots of trophies for the club.

Agreed. Mine does not do that.

That's one of the reasons NAGA keeps detailed records. If you enter as say a beginner and clean out your division, you better not try to enter as a beginner again in any NAGA event.

[Pork Chop]

I train at a Renzo Gracie affiliate and this is not true at my gym. We actually have a guy who had around 10 amateur and 10 pro MMA fights before the instructor 'officially' awarded him his blue belt. It was just not a big deal to the fighter or my instructor so it just did not get done for years.

my coworker's been rolling for 15 years, in a few different schools, with a couple breaks.
he is still a white belt i believe.
he works out early in the afternoon before the classes start and rolls with some of the regulars at the gym.
i think this year's going to be his first competition.
skill wise he says he's less than a blue belt - not sure i believe that.
his knowledge of the game is solid tho.

i've noticed that the whole ranking issue really only matters to people who don't really know the stuff. in my own case, i feel like i'm constantly challenged by new, little guys coming into the gym and thinking i can't do the stuff coz i'm not built like wanderlei. As soon as i get more fights, i'm hoping the issue goes away.

[Becca]

Understood.

What I'm asking is for example...I am going to class every Tuesday and Thursday night..I have belt tesat next week. Guy next to me is just training to have Variety, Fill in gaps etc. with no concern for belts.

Can I just train like that without fighting goals?if your class is set up to allow for it, yes. if not, you might get some greif. But it sound line it is set up to allow for the flexabilty or your buddy wouldn't be allowed. Kind of odd though; clubs with that type of flexability don't usually have formal rank testing.:confused:

[SevenStar]

How does the person not advancing train in the more advanced classes within the curriculum. Or are MMA fighters just perfecting basics?

I think I see where you're going... boxing, muay thai, wrestling and 'mma' classes have no belt rank. bjj and judo do. If you join a judo or bjj class, you are part of the class. When test time comes around, you test - however testing is optional. your coach knows what you know and what you don't, so you would still learn more advanced technique. However, I will say that in judo, I don't know anybody who has not wanted to test. I know coaches who rarely give tests, but have never known a judoka who declined a test.

[SevenStar]

Agreed. Mine does not do that.

That's one of the reasons NAGA keeps detailed records. If you enter as say a beginner and clean out your division, you better not try to enter as a beginner again in any NAGA event.

yeah, true. we had a guy who was a black belt in judo, but a white belt in bjj. He honestly didn't think anything about it, just "I'm a white belt, so I will enter as a beginner" He cleaned house and was accused of sandbagging.

[Askari Hodari]

Do people that cross train various arts for MMA or SD purposes train as normal MA students do going from white to black belt with normal classes or are they training more informally in these arts and focusing only on what they "need" thereby passing up on belts and not even belt testing...just training?

When cross-training I seek understanding, skill, and mastery. Belts are secondary.

[Su Lin]

I cross train kung fu and mma and did my first mma surprise grading last night. I say surprise as I didn't think I was going in for it, but got told to have a go anyway and passed. It was basically going through basic techniques and subs and drilling them, combined with shed loads of rolling then going up against an advanced guy for a round. We don't actually have "belts" but I passed,so am now a yellow belt. I also do lau gar for which we grade and have sashes. These days though I don't care about the sash,I just care about what I can do and how I can apply it.
It's good to have a syllabus so you know that people are actually taking in what they are being taught too. I think the ethos of mma/bjj etc is that the emphasis is on being able to apply what you learn and actually fight well.

So I came away with the best submission of the night and a dodgy and painful knee :D And a non existant yellow belt of course :D

[MasterKiller]

I love it when Su Lin talks dirty.

[Su Lin]

I love it when Su Lin talks dirty.

Let me guess, you wouldn't mind being submitted by me!:rolleyes: :p

[MasterKiller]

Let me guess, you wouldn't mind being submitted by me!:rolleyes: :p

Actually, I think I'd rather "tap" you.

[Su Lin]

*shakes head* :rolleyes: I had a couple of comments like that in class already.Grrrr! :D I shall seek my revenge by my special move, which appears amusingly to be rear naked choke !:p

[MasterKiller]

:p .

[David Jamieson]

yeah, true. we had a guy who was a black belt in judo, but a white belt in bjj. He honestly didn't think anything about it, just "I'm a white belt, so I will enter as a beginner" He cleaned house and was accused of sandbagging.

lol. This can happen when people insist on negating previous skill sets. :p

having said that, I have earned and possess a few different belts and sashes, but I have to agree with the sentiment that understanding and implementation of ingrained knowledge and practice methods is far more important than getting belts. :)