6 Essentials!

[holymantis]

Hi All,
i am wanting to know who has the 6 route Essentials.
i Know CCK Mantis has 7.
some have 3 and call the LKW lineage the other 2 or 3 route forms but re-named.
Look forward to any info.

regards roy:D

[Paul T England]

LKW syllabus has 1-3 essential boxing forms. Maybe more that are not taught on his association syllabus!

Roy, can you explain the renaming bit please?

Hope you are well and training is good.

Paul

[Qixing Tanglang]

Xu Jinge (aka. Koh Kim Kok) and Kai Uwe Pel has the six.

[holymantis]

Hi Paul and Qixing Tanglang,
thanks for your replies.
Paul regarding the 4,5 and 6 Essentials i am interested in LKW's forms as they are so i am told close to 4th and 5th route Essential's.
Kai Uwe Pel so i am told has the 6 route's and that they also are close to the Plum flower book form's.

i am also told that GrandMaster CCM created the 2 forms also and liked the start of the route forms so much that he started his forms the same way!
as i like the route form's i am after ALL info regarding them .
also some forms names were changed like Tang Lang Bo Sim,
which under LKW's Lineage is called Mantis Whirling Step .
So as you can see i am after info as to are they or are they not the route forms.

regards roy:D

[Redfish]

The naming thing ...

In Seven Star schools that go back to Fan Xu Dong/Luo Guang Yu there are six, but later branches differ on the names. If you look at the forms themselves you can see they're the same.

1-3 are usualy the same names (yi lu zhai yao, er lu zha yao, san lu zhai yao) ... there's sometimes a bit of momentary confusion as '2' is pronounced similar to '1' between Cantonese and Mandarin (yee or yi).

So some schools have three forms called 4,5 and 6 route zhai yao. Then, other schools play the same forms physically but call them after the 'meihua' style. Mei hua palm and mei hua legs. Either palm or legs has pt 1 and pt 2, but I'm not sure off the top of my head as we use the 4-6 zhai yao names.

But the point is, the forms are all the same - so all 7 star clubs with a solid unbroken lineage of continuous teaching back to FXD have all six forms - just some people call them different names.

It makes for some interesting pyschology cos some people play one form and say like "this shows the meihua concepts" or whatever, then other people play the same form and say "this showcases the essentials of Mantis". But, It's all the same thing. Or maybe someone else will say "we have all six zhai yao forms" ..but the other school has them too, just under different names.

As for CCK mantis, you'll find that teachers such as mantis108 here or Tse Wing Ming are pretty clear about the sets and who added what etc and are willing to share if you ask them.

[Paul T England]

This is interesting talk.

Makes alot of sense what has been said. I don't mind what they are called really but its nice to know that the moi fa leg forms are probably essential boxing forms.

Next time I get a chance I will ask the question..especailly if CCM was suposed to have created forms as far as I am awake niether CCM or LKW have created forms..

btw, I have never liked the tong long bo sim translation given out by the LKW family.

Paul

[German Bai Lung]

..especailly if CCM was suposed to have created forms as far as I am awake niether CCM or LKW have created forms..

Paul

:D Good joke. They both created forms, let me ensure you. ;)

Just look at the two Ba Zhou Forms!

[Paul T England]

Are you saying that the Ba Zhou forms have been created by CCM or LKW?

How does that make sense when they are common forms in other lines?

Paul

[holymantis]

Hi All,
Regarding CCK Mantis it has 7 route forms not 6 .
regarding the Ba Zhou form/s i have seen a few versions and have been told that one version start's like the Route forms!
any more info guy's on the Essential's?


regards roy:D

[German Bai Lung]

Are you saying that the Ba Zhou forms have been created by CCM or LKW?

How does that make sense when they are common forms in other lines?

Paul

I don´t want to speculate but the facts are:

- 2 Ba zhou forms instead of one in any other lineage
- the "Ba" character means normally 8. In the CCM/LKW lineage ist means to rule.
- in the two sets they are no techniques executed with the ellbows ...

[holymantis]

Regarding the Essential form's/set's.
A Example of this Confusion about names of form's/set's
are from what i am told . are Plum Flower Leg one and two which so i am told by some to be 5th Route and 6th Route Essential's and the 4th Route is so i am told in some Lineages is called Plum Flower Palm!
from what i have read online and what i am told by some Sifu's out there Changing the form names can be of a few thing's .
like the spelling or spoken word that can be different in the out come of the name!


regards roy:D

[Paul T England]

Thanks for being open with your opinions guys.

I agree that the names when translated are sometimes wrong...all I can do is ask the questions when the opportunity arises.

The published list of forms given out by LKW appears to be a core syllabus tha tis taught but other forms do exist and maybe Ba Zhou 1 & 2 are not translated as 8 elbows. Maybe the 8 elbows form is kept back for disciples like some of the others.

I find it very odd why CCM or LKW would change the essential boxing names to moi fa toy.

Paul

[holymantis]

Hi Paul,
I am not saying that they changed the name's , i have heard it was before them that they COULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED? i am trying to find info about the Route form's and why there is People saying this .
it all add's to good banter on the forum also.
could the Ba Zhou be 8 talons that i have heard about?
regards roy:D

[Qixing Tanglang]

This came from a post I made May 17, 2007:

"Our family LGY QXTL has two sets in the Ba Zhou series: Yi Lu Bai Yuan Kui Yan and Er Lu Bai Yuan Kui Yan."

Link: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45140&page=2&highlight=Ba+Zhou

Nate

[Redfish]

Regarding the Essential form's/set's.
A Example of this Confusion about names of form's/set's
are from what i am told . are Plum Flower Leg one and two which so i am told by some to be 5th Route and 6th Route Essential's and the 4th Route is so i am told in some Lineages is called Plum Flower Palm!
from what i have read online and what i am told by some Sifu's out there Changing the form names can be of a few thing's .
like the spelling or spoken word that can be different in the out come of the name!


regards roy:D

Yeah, that's what I put up at reply #5.

The interesting thing is that it's not relevant ifone was an orignal name or not, if you look at the forms they are the same.

I notice a lot of schools liberally throw the names around for Bai Yuan Tou Tao.

There are three forms:

Bai Yuan Tou Tao
Tang Lang Tou Tao
Hei Hu Tou Tao

Across all the schools in 7 star and vids etc ... any one of those three forms may crop up with any one of the three names.

But everyone is still playing the same forms underneath.

[holymantis]

Regarding the route forms.
each form has it's own Fighting Theory's be it Defencive or Attacking and then combined with good hand and footwork .Trapping and Throwing Principles.
within the Essential Route forms it is clear to see the infuences of Long fist, Tong Bei and other Skill's from the 18 Hand styles that Wang Lang Used to Create the forms.
i think of these as important as the 3 Maternal forms.
regards roy:D