Southern Chinese influence on Karate

[diego]

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/006/002/001.html

Kusanku http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/006/002/images/002.jpg

This is an old kata of the Shuri-te style, believed to have been introduced by a Chinese military official called Kusanku. It features a variety of offensive and defensive techniques and a strong rhythmic sense. The kaleidoscopic techniques that roll out, in readiness for attack from any side, are valiant and yet graceful, and have both a feeling of stateliness and airiness. Sokuto ('foot sword'-a kick with the sharp outside edge of the foot) and yokogeri (side kick) appear at every turn. The spirit of Karate ni sente nashi (There is no first attack in karate) is particularly expressed in the first technique. The enbu-sen (fighting position line) shaped like the Chinese character kome (rice) is one of the features of this kata.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=fca0JIR8Ikk

very nice circular foot work in this Okinawan Kata, can anyone tell me if the Japanese and the Koreans use swinging long fists like CLF and Lama?.

LOL, I was on the toilet reading an old black belt mag and found an article on the roots of Okinawan karate and started wondering if Tibetan Gung Fu influenced anyone outside of China...India uses long arm methods...do the Thai's?...Eskimos...:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Okinawan's may have taken certain moves from Southern Kung fu, but the kata's "flavour" is uniquely Okinawan.
Case in point Sanchin.

[diego]

The Okinawan's may have taken certain moves from Southern Kung fu, but the kata's "flavour" is uniquely Okinawan.
Case in point Sanchin.

I don't know anything about Okinawa but Young Lee looks Japanese wheras Toma shian sensei's posture is more Chinese his hips look open more like Shaolin than ralph machio:D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1BzGK-wRtr8&feature=related

[cjurakpt]

if you are interested in general on the relationship of southern "hakka" styles on Okinawan arts, a recognized on the topic is Patrick McCarthy, who has trained for decades in both, and has a full grasp of traditional arts of that nature;
http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/
I strongly recommend anything written by him, especially the "Myth Busting" link about the "truth" behind forms practice; the man says it all, right on point;

personally, I like naihanchi kata - it is loaded with all sorts of locks / reversals / trapping combinations and counters which, when looked at from the POV of southern TCMA just literalyl jump out at you (although you can see where the "xerox" effect has crept in as well); it also, arguably, has certain "qigong" characteristics, in terms of how it tracks the meridian system and certain points (not necessarily by direct design, but just in context of how functionally integrated movements ends up doing that anyway)

[sanjuro_ronin]

if you are interested in general on the relationship of southern "hakka" styles on Okinawan arts, a recognized on the topic is Patrick McCarthy, who has trained for decades in both, and has a full grasp of traditional arts of that nature;
http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/
I strongly recommend anything written by him, especially the "Myth Busting" link about the "truth" behind forms practice; the man says it all, right on point;

personally, I like naihanchi kata - it is loaded with all sorts of locks / reversals / trapping combinations and counters which, when looked at from the POV of southern TCMA just literalyl jump out at you (although you can see where the "xerox" effect has crept in as well); it also, arguably, has certain "qigong" characteristics, in terms of how it tracks the meridian system and certain points (not necessarily by direct design, but just in context of how functionally integrated movements ends up doing that anyway)

Yes, this here : http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/Myth_Busting.htm --- shoudl be required reading !

[diego]

if you are interested in general on the relationship of southern "hakka" styles on Okinawan arts, a recognized on the topic is Patrick McCarthy, who has trained for decades in both, and has a full grasp of traditional arts of that nature;
http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/
I strongly recommend anything written by him, especially the "Myth Busting" link about the "truth" behind forms practice; the man says it all, right on point;

personally, I like naihanchi kata - it is loaded with all sorts of locks / reversals / trapping combinations and counters which, when looked at from the POV of southern TCMA just literalyl jump out at you (although you can see where the "xerox" effect has crept in as well); it also, arguably, has certain "qigong" characteristics, in terms of how it tracks the meridian system and certain points (not necessarily by direct design, but just in context of how functionally integrated movements ends up doing that anyway)

Thanks you guys, my sister just gave me a big book on the history of Japanese Samurai:)...I'm the type to look at anything related to martial arts like I'll read any pamphlet or ad...I know nothing about Japanese Martial History besides what we see on joe T.V. and this makes me happy as the Japanese are so technical with their art I should be busy for awhile bruching up on the History of that section of Asia.

you guys see the Long swinging arms famous in CLF and similar styles in places outside of India and Tibet?.

James

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE...India uses long arm methods...do the Thai's?...Eskimos...:D[/QUOTE]

Actually, some Eskimos do. You ever try to fight wearing a parka?

James, your comment got me thinking about the layers of clothing worn in northern and western China...sheepskin or quilted vests over longsleeve coats over one or more shirts...and that's not even cold weather gear. Short jabs and swings wouldn't be particularly effective or easy to generate in that kind of clothing. It would be more efficient to use larger movements that lead into wrestling techniques. Wait...I've just described lama boxing.

Now, as to why the resemblance to kalaripayyat in places like Kerala where little clothing is worn for training, I can only speculate.

[AJM]

And Ulu. That pretty much describes it with or without the blade.

[jdhowland]

And Ulu. That pretty much describes it with or without the blade.

Ulu are for women. But yeah, that could carve you up good with circular strokes.

[jdhowland]

... the Japanese are so technical with their art I should be busy for awhile bruching up on the History of that section of Asia.


The late great Donn Draeger lived for many years in Japan and used knowledge gained there and in southeast Asia to help formulate his ideas on how martial cultures can best be studied and compared. He admired the Japanese koryu (ancient traditions) for their ability to preserve centuries old technical details and ethics. He once said that "If you want to learn weapons go to the Japanese. If you want to learn hand-to-hand combat learn from the Chinese."

jd

[David Jamieson]

I learned Isshin school for about 4 years.

The okinawan styles do have a lot of practices that are without a doubt drawn from CMA.

Even the names.

Shorin = Shaolin. Shorin Ryu is a central Okinawan style of Karate that makes no bones about it's foundations.

[jdhowland]

Shorin = Shaolin. Shorin Ryu is a central Okinawan style of Karate that makes no bones about it's foundations.

Chibana Chosin was the one who named his style of karatedo Shorin Ryu. He was also the first to designate a style of karate as a "ryu." He used the kanji for "small" rather than "young" forest, which suggests that he never saw a written document about the "Siu Lam" arts, if that is the connection he was trying to make. This means that the name Shorin cannot be attested before the 20th century. But it does appear, as David mentioned, that Okinawan karateka were well aware of the art's Chinese heritage.

Higa(shi)onna's karate, which would later develop into "Goju Ryu," had more recent connections with Guangzhou.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The late great Donn Draeger lived for many years in Japan and used knowledge gained there and in southeast Asia to help formulate his ideas on how martial cultures can best be studied and compared. He admired the Japanese koryu (ancient traditions) for their ability to preserve centuries old technical details and ethics. He once said that "If you want to learn weapons go to the Japanese. If you want to learn hand-to-hand combat learn from the Chinese."

jd

In many ways, I have come to view CMA empty handed systems as the advanced verisions of their japanese and okinawan counter-parts.

[jdhowland]

In many ways, I have come to view CMA empty handed systems as the advanced verisions of their japanese and okinawan counter-parts.


I would agree that CMAs had more time to develop and be tested. Depending on which arts you are comparing, it may not be fair to say one country's arts are more advanced. They serve different purposes. For example, the Japanese never developed H2H stiriking arts to the degree the Chinese did. Why should they? They were controlled for centuries by an armed military class. Try punching and kicking a man in full armor and see what it gets you. On the other hand, you can wrestle him to the ground and seek a weak point for your kissaki. Yoroi kumi uchi leads to jujitsu.

Until modern weapons came along the Japanese didn't fare so well in mainland Asia. Not that they weren't formidable fighters. They had too much experience fighting other Japanese. Breadth of experience, good and bad, is what creates flexible systems and strategies.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would agree that CMAs had more time to develop and be tested. Depending on which arts you are comparing, it may not be fair to say one country's arts are more advanced. They serve different purposes. For example, the Japanese never developed H2H stiriking arts to the degree the Chinese did. Why should they? They were controlled for centuries by an armed military class. Try punching and kicking a man in full armor and see what it gets you. On the other hand, you can wrestle him to the ground and seek a weak point for your kissaki. Yoroi kumi uchi leads to jujitsu.

Until modern weapons came along the Japanese didn't fare so well in mainland Asia. Not that they weren't formidable fighters. They had too much experience fighting other Japanese. Breadth of experience, good and bad, is what creates flexible systems and strategies.

I should have specified STRIKING arts, my bad.

I agree.

[TenTigers]

don't forget that Okinawans first called their art Chinese Hand=Tang Te, also pronounced Kara in Okinawan dialect. I believe it was Itosu (or was it Funakoshi) who changed the first kanji to read Kara=empty.

[diego]

[QUOTE...India uses long arm methods...do the Thai's?...Eskimos...:D

Actually, some Eskimos do. You ever try to fight wearing a parka?

James, your comment got me thinking about the layers of clothing worn in northern and western China...sheepskin or quilted vests over longsleeve coats over one or more shirts...and that's not even cold weather gear. Short jabs and swings wouldn't be particularly effective or easy to generate in that kind of clothing. It would be more efficient to use larger movements that lead into wrestling techniques. Wait...I've just described lama boxing.

Now, as to why the resemblance to kalaripayyat in places like Kerala where little clothing is worn for training, I can only speculate.[/QUOTE]



I figure the India connection is the mastery of the spine using yoga stances to strike long from up close or far away...Kajukenbo masters talk about the layers of clothing...GM Al Dacascos mentions the issue in one of his video tapes...how it's hard to break through a guy's Leather coat, especially fighting up North where they have big toques, earmuffs and hoods, you have to really snap your strike in order to penetrate their armor. Russian strongmen must have some solid long arm boxing:)

About the Samurai...dudes is freaking nuts but oh so fascinating...They're all a bunch of inbreds trying to become Shogunate...

[diego]

TTT:cool:......

[sanjuro_ronin]

About the Samurai...dudes is freaking nuts but oh so fascinating...They're all a bunch of inbreds trying to become Shogunate...

Ah, to write without thinking....:rolleyes:

[diego]

Ah, to write without thinking....:rolleyes:

lol, all the hari krishna ritual suicide...or is that hari-kiri?:D...makes me think dudes was retarded from inbreeding, wasn't the royal brits all cousins?...they're crazy as hell.

Anyway I read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Warrior-Tradition-Harry-Cook/dp/0806906707 and it's talking about the last samurai was around 1650, after that guns were around so sword skills weren't that highly regarded and thier martial arts dwindled into sports. All of the southern gung fu legends come out right around 1650 ad talking about righteous warriors overthrowing the manchu and the imperialists...I'm thinking a lot of the history is a crock of ****...china prolly never had any actual world famous boxers...they had clans who used martial arts on the streets with sharp weapons but no real gung fu packaged for the olympics until recently...

It would be nice if all the underground societies opened up thier history books and gave a scholary accound of the history behind all of the styles?...some **** i think about listening to bob marley;):confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol, all the hari krishna ritual suicide...or is that hari-kiri?:D...makes me think dudes was retarded from inbreeding, wasn't the royal brits all cousins?...they're crazy as hell.

Anyway I read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Warrior-Tradition-Harry-Cook/dp/0806906707 and it's talking about the last samurai was around 1650, after that guns were around so sword skills weren't that highly regarded and thier martial arts dwindled into sports. All of the southern gung fu legends come out right around 1650 ad talking about righteous warriors overthrowing the manchu and the imperialists...I'm thinking a lot of the history is a crock of ****...china prolly never had any actual world famous boxers...they had clans who used martial arts on the streets with sharp weapons but no real gung fu packaged for the olympics until recently...

It would be nice if all the underground societies opened up thier history books and gave a scholary accound of the history behind all of the styles?...some **** i think about listening to bob marley;):confused:

Well, at least you are reading.
:D

One book does not an accurate history make.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=diego;873028 I read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Warrior-Tradition-Harry-Cook/dp/0806906707 and it's talking about the last samurai was around 1650, after that guns were around so sword skills weren't that highly regarded and thier martial arts dwindled into sports. QUOTE]


It might be better to use the more inclusive term "bushi" for the warrior class of Japan. Samurai is only a sub-class of bushi. And they were around for a couple of centuries after 1650. Many Japanese today are still proud of their bushi heritage but they cannot really call themselves samurai. More than a hundred years ago they lost their badges of rank (the right to wear swords in public). This was the end of a long decline.

Early in the 17th century Japan was a unified nation under the Shogunate. This put many bushi out of work since their main function was to guard against and fight other Japanese. As a result, many of the martial arts began to serve functions beyond supporting a particular clan or lord. They were gradually seen as being of benefit to the individual. Many arts became decadent, and many "samurai" didn't even know how to hold a sword properly. But they didn't deteriorate into sports right away.

Kano Sensei might have been pleased to see how popular judo became worldwide. He might also have been horrified to learn that the non-competetive arts and weapons training that bound judo to jujutsu's historic past were ignored in favor of mere competitive bouts in which winning a match is the ultimate goal.

Not all the traditions deteriorated into sports. Some of the koryu bugei systems of combat remain. They are not particularly popular among youth and many have been lost. But you can still learn how to wear armor, how to behave and how to train for a 14th century Japanese battlefield.

I, for one, hope some of these arts will carry on for a few more centuries. You can't get trophies or a black belt in them. You can't "win" anything. They are not designed for self-defense. Yet there is much that can be learned from them.

jd