The Pole

[LoneTiger108]

Just something that interest me immensely.

How do you translate 'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'? And how does it affect your interpretation of Wing Chuns lesser known stick/pole plays?

[tjwingchun]

You know my thinking for the pole with my interpretation of the techniques and how I envisage they could be used, as far as translation is concerned I leave that to experts in languages, I stick to being a "cunning linguist" :eek:

[LoneTiger108]

Maybe I shouldn't have just asked the question straight away...

I'm not saying that you need to be a linguist professor to understand your Wing Chun, but I would never have been given access to anything if I didn't show the interest in learning Chinese (Cantonese).

I admit that I'm crap at conversation, but I do know a little about curriculums and terminologies. This has been my downfall really, as there are no people to chat to other than fellow 'Jun Mo' students and they're all over the place these days lol!

What is the name of everyones 1st Point Technique? 2nd 3rd etc? It intrigues me, as I've said before, as I have still to see a 'form' like the one passed down from Lee Shing. The version I'm on about here is only taught by Sifu Austin Goh and Sifu Joe Lee, my 'Uncles'.

This is what it looks like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExClVQ7CdVs

[Vajramusti]

'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'=6 1/2 points pole.

There are more than 6 1/2 strikes with the pole. The name is not because of 6 1/2 strikes IMO.

Thanks for sharing the Goh clip-I had seen to before. He looks "energetic"- but I would rather not do it that way at least for training..

Ip man was already old when he was filmed with the pole at a HK police gathering. A well known
WC businessman bought that film and is most likely sitting on it....though he has shown it to some students. Sheesh.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'=6 1/2 points pole.

There are more than 6 1/2 strikes with the pole. The name is not because of 6 1/2 strikes IMO.

Thanks for sharing the Goh clip-I had seen to before. He looks "energetic"- but I would rather not do it that way at least for training..

Ip man was already old when he was filmed with the pole at a HK police gathering. A well known
WC businessman bought that film and is most likely sitting on it....though he has shown it to some students. Sheesh.

joy chaudhuri
Hi Joy, some WC lineages including TWC do have 6 1/2 actual strikes though there are more blocks/parries.
Phil

[anerlich]

Phil, Joy, I think it also depends how you do the counting.


Is it me, or is this thread being ignored!

You seem to be hinting you have some unique insight into the pole most of your WC peers lack, and are hinting around it. I don't have time for mind games, so in my case the answer is "both". If you have something to share, share it.

[Vajramusti]

I know Phil. Wing chun is a diverse world.

Andrew- Of course - depends on how one counts. Not being coy atleast not intentionally.

But if you look at some possible basic strikes -not pure "blocks"( the kuit on the kwan:not more than one sound) there can be many more than
6 strikes.
For starters-
Top of the head, center of the forehead, wind pipe cavity, chest, solar plexus, dan tien, groin, both sides- temple, sides of the neck, hands, elbows, knees, ankles. shoulders, colar bone indentation etc. Too many "points"---that is why I am skeptical of the name coming from 6 1/2 strike points. Each strike would involve different manipulations of the pole.

joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

I know Phil. Wing chun is a diverse world.

Andrew- Of course - depends on how one counts. Not being coy atleast not intentionally.

But if you look at some possible basic strikes -not pure "blocks"( the kuit on the kwan:not more than one sound) there can be many more than
6 strikes.
For starters-
Top of the head, center of the forehead, wind pipe cavity, chest, solar plexus, dan tien, groin, both sides- temple, sides of the neck, hands, elbows, knees, ankles. shoulders, colar bone indentation etc. Too many "points"---that is why I am skeptical of the name coming from 6 1/2 strike points. Each strike would involve different manipulations of the pole.

joy chaudhuri
Hi Joy, according to some WC lineages the 6 1/2 strikes are the motions used which can strike various targets. Not the "many" target areas themselves. There are clearly 6 distinct strikes to cause damage. The half strike is another thing.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, Joy, I think it also depends how you do the counting.



You seem to be hinting you have some unique insight into the pole most of your WC peers lack, and are hinting around it. I don't have time for mind games, so in my case the answer is "both". If you have something to share, share it.
Was this aimed at me or Joy? I don't think either of us said or implied that we had some special knowledge above other wingchunners.

[Vajramusti]

Phil,

I let it go---depends on how one counts---I count more than 6 strikes-not just many more points.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Was this aimed at me or Joy? I don't think either of us said or implied that we had some special knowledge above other wingchunners.

Neither. At the OP.

[imperialtaichi]

The pole form according to Wong Seung Leung and Tsui Seung Tin line:

The first six moves are for striking. The seventh (Lau Sui, or Running Water) is for redirection. Hence six and a half point.

I've seen students of both Wong and Tsui doing the pole. Similar moves, different flavour.

Cheers,
John

[Liddel]

Anyone ever think it was related to the length of the "traditional" pole ?
(Meaning the one most commonly used....)

Although these days it wouldnt relate exactly to 6 1/2 of anything as there are many different measuring units....

This is the idea of what was passed to me ...

Lok Yiu - Yau Soong Ying - DREW

Anyone know what the common measuring unit is in China and how long its been used...or what it once was..... ?

[LoneTiger108]

You seem to be hinting you have some unique insight into the pole most of your WC peers lack, and are hinting around it. I don't have time for mind games, so in my case the answer is "both". If you have something to share, share it.

I personally have never really been welcomed into the Wing Chun family as my Sifu has always been different, low key and non-political. I do think I have a rare insight though, as I know of very few people who have seen what I have seen, trained what I trained and lived how I did. Very few. But don't we all feel like this? This isn't intended as a boast, as I trained alongside guys who had more than 15 years in Wing Chun before they met Sifu! They were all oldskool, and if I do have peers it is only them I would refer to, although I call them 'Brothers' and they know who I am.

I started this thread because of a confusion, or shall I say 'lack' of enthusiasm for the Pole/Stick training in Wing Chun. That's all. The translation, IMHO, means so much in interpretation. This quote, I feel, says it all:

Words from an Wing Chun non-expert
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pole form according to Wong Seung Leung and Tsui Seung Tin line:
The first six moves are for striking. The seventh (Lau Sui, or Running Water) is for redirection. Hence six and a half point.

NOTE: The Seventh. This was how it was explained to us on numerous occassions. The 'Half Pole' was NEVER described as being a 'point'. The Half Pole was like the quarter staff and used for redirection as suggested, evading and parrying at close range. Yes, I say 'close range'.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by starting this thread, or even for entering this forum in the first place, but I honestly want to hear from people who have a similar viewpoint. Our Families stick was famous while Lee Shing was alive. He was known as 'King Of The Stick' as a young man! Never needing to learn it from Yip Man, but assist in its refinement he may have done IMHO.

I have my own reservations about sharing my mind on forums like this one as I too am in semi-retirement at 32!! lol!! There is just no reason for me to teach/coach in todays climate as I feel that the interest really isn't there...

After years looking at this site, I took it upon myself to write here without any of my Family knowing. Soon it may all just stop as I get the impression this is going to be a difficult journey...

[chisauking]

LT:

An old Chinese saying comes to mind: 'dui ngu taane kam' , which means playing piano to a cow. No matter whether you are playing good or bad, the cow wouldn't appreciate it.

In some ways, it's the same on this forum. No matter how good your post, some may not agree; no matter how poor your post, some agrees. It all depends on ones experience, comprehension, skill level, etc., etc.

If you decide only to part-take upon good reception \ responses, then you may as well pack up and go home. FWIW, I enjoy some of your post (needless to say, I don't agree with everything) and I think it's good contribution to an otherwise 'bickering' forum.

Carry on if you enjoy the banter, but remember that only 'weak minded' people needs to seek other's approval.

[mad101dan]

According to Robert Chu


The pole, as taught on the Red Junks, was comprised of six-and-a-half conceptual points (ideas), hence it was called "six-and-a-half-point pole". The Siu Lam Weng Chun of Fung Siu-Ching included the points rise, obstruct, point, deflect, cut, and circle, and the half-point leak. While it is said the half-point is separated due to its predominantly defensive usage, all of these concepts can and should be applied defensively or offensively, as circumstances dictate. Others prefer to explain the six-and-a-half points in the terminology of wing chun boxing and offer up dart, disperse, wing, control, cultivate, circle and the half-point obstruct. In the Cho family (descended from Opera performer Yik Kam) and Yuen Kay-San systems, the spearing pole is considered the half-point since it is the core and can come from any other movement .

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_weapons.html

[LoneTiger108]

LT:

An old Chinese saying comes to mind: 'dui ngu taane kam' , which means playing piano to a cow. No matter whether you are playing good or bad, the cow wouldn't appreciate it.

In some ways, it's the same on this forum. No matter how good your post, some may not agree; no matter how poor your post, some agrees. It all depends on ones experience, comprehension, skill level, etc., etc.

If you decide only to part-take upon good reception \ responses, then you may as well pack up and go home. FWIW, I enjoy some of your post (needless to say, I don't agree with everything) and I think it's good contribution to an otherwise 'bickering' forum.

Carry on if you enjoy the banter, but remember that only 'weak minded' people needs to seek other's approval.

Thanks for the comments chisauking. Nice to know someone is at least 'enjoying' my little posts. I can only say that I hope you don't think that I would 'need approval' to be here. I am big enough and old enough to make up my own mind, but believe me when I say that many of my Family will probably use the saying you talk of here!

Being trained behind closed doors has its disadvantages, as at times I felt completely controlled by Sifu, but as I aged he relaxed and once I had kids he literally ordered me to go home! lol! I find nothing wrong in this submissive attitude as he was 'as a father' to me for many years.

I will carry on posting regardless as I do like the banter, meaningful or not! But time is against me as always...

[Phil Redmond]

According to Robert Chu . . .
Others prefer to explain the six-and-a-half points in the terminology of wing chun boxing and offer up dart, disperse, wing, control, cultivate, circle and the half-point obstruct.

http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_weapons.html
The blocks/parries are: Biu kwan, Tan kwan, Bong kwan, Fuhk kwan, Gahn kwan, Jut kwan, Chow kwan. There are still 6 distinct strikes and 1 half strike. And there is chi kwan practice as well.

[LoneTiger108]

The blocks/parries are: Biu kwan, Tan kwan, Bong kwan, Fuhk kwan, Gahn kwan, Jut kwan, Chow kwan. There are still 6 distinct strikes and 1 half strike. And there is chi kwan practice as well.

I can understand your post Phil, and I'm happy that you're contributing here, but there may be other versions of the Pole that use varied terminologies for the techniques being trained, let alone the theories behind the form.

I would appreciate your comments in this thread, as I know my families pole is not very well known...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42773

[byond1]

My take!

The Look Dim Boon Gwun, Sam Dim Boon Gwun, and the Sap Sam Cheung Look Dim Boon Gwun are names, for differant pole methods, typicaly found within the WCK system though differant pole forms and methods can be found in other Kung Fu branchs, with the same names.

Like all things in WCK, the traditional 'naming' of something, contains ideas about "it" and the concepts and principles involved. 6 and half point pole doesnt mean you can ONLY have 6.5 attacks. It means Litteraly 6 and a half concept pole. A "dim" or point, is way byond a "s'trike". A "dim", is a "Yiu Dim" or "important concept".
While the Dim/Points are concepts, each is "exemplified and manefested in one specific kind of use or strike. So all 6.5 points, and the sometimes included full 7th, have 7 basic strikes/uses.

This pattern and layering of knowledge is found in the entire WCK system. Ok Tan Sau. Look at SLT. We know WCK is a princiiple and concept driven art. We have a Concept of Tan, and a Ging that goes along with it. Really it can be applied anyway ones imagination can, as long as you remain in the WCK context thats outlined in the Principles. But in the SLT form, the Tan Sau concept, is expressed and manefested in the most basic and logical us for said concept.Which is also a litteral technique or strike(with the half point)

So I think the 6.5 points are concepts first and foremost, but each can be applied litteraly as strikes, as found within the forms.

There is so much variation in WCK on everything, we cant even agree on the Half Point. And the "water dripping' pole you mentioned, in YKS Pole, is one of our regular points.
The Half point, is a CORE concept that is applied in every aspect of ones WCK, and has nothing to do with "Lan Gwun" or Sart Gwun typicaly seen in many H.K pole forms IMO.

B

[byond1]

Several posts, just while i was writing mine!! I cant keep up.

I agree with Roberts statement that Cho and YKS use "Chuen Cheung" as the Half point.

I disagree with the statement that Fung Siu Chings pole form Half point is "Lau" or Leak. Yuen Kay Shans pole form, IS Fung Siu Chings pole form. Fung lived with Yuen for the last 3 years of his life, and than the Yuens burried him and officiated at his funeral. Also the PURE Tang Family art, removed from the Modern 'weng chun" branchs represent one of the best pole forms I have seen, and is related to the YKS system (and/or vice versa)

Andreas Hoffman ~says~his pole method is that of Fung Siu Ching. He teachs that the 6 pole concepts are applied to half of his system, while the Half point of Lau/leaking is the other Half of the system he teachs. As in Lau is the most important and is Half of what you always want to do or keep in mind. If you want to unravel the "Modern" Weng Chun Myth, you need only visit :

www.wingchunpedia.org

and look up entries involving :

Dai Duk Lan
Lo Family
Dong and Chu Family
Tang family
Cheng Kwong
and
Andreas Hoffman

B

[couch]

*My* pole form (My Sifu's interpretation of the Moy Yat system handed down to him) has 6 distinct pokes or thrusts and then a "C" motion. The "C" motion is the "half."

Just thought I'd share.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Phil Redmond]

*My* pole form (My Sifu's interpretation of the Moy Yat system handed down to him) has 6 distinct pokes or thrusts and then a "C" motion. The "C" motion is the "half."

Just thought I'd share.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik
Right on Kenton. This is 99% of what I learned from two different Wing Chun Sifu. The only difference is the "C" motion you mentioned.This was the best answer yet for YMWCK. Of course I don't claim to have a special knowledge on the pole. I can only speak on what I learned. I'm going to send you something by email.
Phil

[LoneTiger108]

Right on Kenton. This is 99% of what I learned from two different Wing Chun Sifu. The only difference is the "C" motion you mentioned.This was the best answer yet for YMWCK. Of course I don't claim to have a special knowledge on the pole. I can only speak on what I learned.
Phil

I believe, IMO, that what you're referring to here is what we used to call the 'Half-Moon' motion prior to thrusting with a point. From what I can remember this was also a 'Chi' cultivating exercise which helps to raise the intent up to the chest before releasing through the arm and fingers.

I don't think my 'knowledge' is special either Phil, but I do belive I have had access to a 'special' environment concerning this tool, or weapon as it was a standard for all of us. I am very proud of my experiences with my Sifu and I know that this was an ongoing argument as when I first heard of the form it was refferred to as the 6 & half point pole. Later, we all decided that it made more sense being the 6 Point & Half Pole due to our distinct Half Pole Set.

Please consider that I'm talking of a whole 'Form' here, which would have been impossible to practice in a small home in Hong Kong! Adjustments were normally made for this reason and I feel that what I have seen from Yip Mans version the points and motions are there, but the stance/leg/stepping work is minimized completely. A reference to 'hidden' theories was the norm and I feel that Lee Shing hid nothing from his way of the stick, as the stick was his life...

[couch]

Right on Kenton. This is 99% of what I learned from two different Wing Chun Sifu. The only difference is the "C" motion you mentioned.This was the best answer yet for YMWCK. Of course I don't claim to have a special knowledge on the pole. I can only speak on what I learned. I'm going to send you something by email.
Phil

I apologize for not using proper terms, but here the breakdown:
Pickup up pole so that the long end extends to the right.
1. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
2. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
3. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
4. Tan Sau with a 45 degree turn to the right, poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
5. Clockwise circle block with a 90 degree turn to the left, poke return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
6. Small "Jut" downwards with a 45 degree turn to the right (returning to the centre), poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
1/2. Sit in Horse, extend both arms/pole out to shoulder height, poke, return pole to chest, drop the pole downward and slightly forward

Maybe when I'm back in town (I'm away next week), I could Youtube myself. ;)
I look forward to your e-mail, Phil!

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[LoneTiger108]

I apologize for not using proper terms, but here the breakdown:
Pickup up pole so that the long end extends to the right.
1. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
2. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
3. Poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
4. Tan Sau with a 45 degree turn to the right, poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
5. Clockwise circle block with a 90 degree turn to the left, poke return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
6. Small "Jut" downwards with a 45 degree turn to the right (returning to the centre), poke in Horse, return to Cat Stance, tap the ground
1/2. Sit in Horse, extend both arms/pole out to shoulder height, poke, return pole to chest, drop the pole downward and slightly forward

Kenton, I have to thank you for this insight as I personally do nothing like this with the pole form I studied. I have seen this type of training/form though and I do recognize what you may mean by 'poke in horse' as we refer to this posture as 'Dai Yat Dim' or 'First Point' in English. Maybe what you're doing here is actually training a set for assisting your understanding of one point?

My Uncle Austin Goh has shown a '3 Point' exercise on Youtube, and its quite similar in places:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNU4B4BToIE

This clip looks more like what you described IMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRf0ZNya0pg

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJadrTsQZCo

[couch]

Kenton,
This clip looks more like what you described IMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRf0ZNya0pg

Yup, that's half of it!

[couch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJadrTsQZCo

I don't know anything about the Sum Nung stuff, however my first WC school was with Brian Lewadny. He was a Hung Gar master before he started in WC. This form that is on the video looks EXACTLY like the Monkey Staff form, except that it is shortened up a bit and given some "WC Shifting."

Hey James!!! Do you have a vid on the internet of Cornelio performing the Monkey Staff form from a demo? Just checking.

My opinion,
Kenton Sefcik

[sihing]

I don't know anything about the Sum Nung stuff, however my first WC school was with Brian Lewadny. He was a Hung Gar master before he started in WC. This form that is on the video looks EXACTLY like the Monkey Staff form, except that it is shortened up a bit and given some "WC Shifting."

Hey James!!! Do you have a vid on the internet of Cornelio performing the Monkey Staff form from a demo? Just checking.

My opinion,
Kenton Sefcik

Hi Kenton:)

I'll have to look thru the archives of tapes and clips to see if I have Corny doing the monkey pole. I never paid too much attention to those things as I had no interest in ever learning it, too much fluff for me, and don't remember him ever doing that form, I only remember him doing the broad sword form allot.

James

[couch]

Hi Kenton:)

I'll have to look thru the archives of tapes and clips to see if I have Corny doing the monkey pole. I never paid too much attention to those things as I had no interest in ever learning it, too much fluff for me, and don't remember him ever doing that form, I only remember him doing the broad sword form allot.

James

No stress...

I remember him teaching it at one of the summer seminars. I have a VHS tape of the one seminar with you performing the dummy. Just no way at this time to convert it.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[LoneTiger108]

I don't know anything about the Sum Nung stuff, however my first WC school was with Brian Lewadny. He was a Hung Gar master before he started in WC. This form that is on the video looks EXACTLY like the Monkey Staff form, except that it is shortened up a bit and given some "WC Shifting."

I think you may have got the Monkey Staff confused here! A Monkey Staff, as far as I'm aware, utilizes the 'character' of the Monkey and usually is performed with the famous 'Staff' (solid metal, possibly with brass ends). It also has a very powerful Half-Pole technique, concentrating on turning and swirling etc. With this in mind, the Sum Nung example does not have the Monkey Character.

The 'exercise' I see is another way of separating the Half-Pole from the Six Points, of which I am also familiar with as this is what the Lee Shing Family tend to practice. And thats what I believe this clip to be. Speaking from experience, when we demonstrated in public there were always slight changes that were made depending on the environment. As an example I had to alter our sixth point due to the cieling being very low, I had to step backwards instead of forwards as the audience was too close etc. These things happen sometimes, and unfortunately when 'forms' like this are seen they are scrutinised and often disregarded due to lack of information or understanding.

Overall, its a very neat 'classic' set with Half-pole (quarterstaff) techniques being practised equally on both sides with the various steppping work associated with this part of the Six Point Half Pole. Honestly, if you have never practised this set/idea you may never find the clip familiar. It has definately not been 'added' or 'stolen'! All the information about this clip is within the Six Point & Half Pole Form I am familiar with.

Hence, the title of this thread...

ps. I would still like to see the 'other half' of the Pole described by Couch, are there any clips of Wong Shun Leungs form anywhere on the net?

[Simple_easy]

LUK DIM BUN KWAN - Six and Half POINT Pole Techniques

This name come from the marks left by the pole when it strikes a paper surface for example.

Each of the 6 techniques, when strike a paper target, leave a round or oval hole.

The "half technique" leaves a crescent or half-moon shaped hole.

[k gledhill]

:D
it means, that we have 6 (full) movements, which come from the body to the target... the last one teaches you how one can make a strike, when your arms already extended..... a strike after a strike... we call it half movement, because we strike with extended arms.

;)

[Simple_easy]

:D
it means, that we have 6 (full) movements, which come from the body to the target... the last one teaches you how one can make a strike, when your arms already extended..... a strike after a strike... we call it half movement, because we strike with extended arms.

;)

LUK DIM BUN KWAN: The "Wing Chun" Pole is such heavy and powerful and very dangerous (attacks targeted between solar plexus and throat) weapon, that it is not used with repeated actions of attack, defense,.......attack, defense,.....and so on. The weight of the pole (Wing Chun pole) produces a lot of momentum, too much power, that there is no time to recover.

Properly understood and properly practiced, the practitioner that has the SKILL and understands this weapon specifically, will do ONE fatal attack. Otherwise if he/she missed that attack, then he/she was controlled by the enemy, and that is it. (That's the purpose of Chi Kwan exercise)

Always remember: "LUK DIM BUN KWAN DOES NOT MAKE TWO SOUNDS!"

[LoneTiger108]

Always remember: "LUK DIM BUN KWAN DOES NOT MAKE TWO SOUNDS!"

Thanks for reminding us all, except you forgot to add the reason; 'if its used to 'kill'...

When you 'train' the interactions, or so-called 'chi-gwan', OFCOURSE you will hear more than one sound!

I started this post in an attempt to meet some practitioners who may have some decent knowledge to exchange, but it looks like I'm wasting my time here as nobody seems to even relate to my 'half-pole' insights.

I really am a LoneTiger, and I feel like it will stay that way...

[k gledhill]

LUK DIM BUN KWAN: The "Wing Chun" Pole is such heavy and powerful and very dangerous (attacks targeted between solar plexus and throat) weapon, that it is not used with repeated actions of attack, defense,.......attack, defense,.....and so on. The weight of the pole (Wing Chun pole) produces a lot of momentum, too much power, that there is no time to recover.

Properly understood and properly practiced, the practitioner that has the SKILL and understands this weapon specifically, will do ONE fatal attack. Otherwise if he/she missed that attack, then he/she was controlled by the enemy, and that is it. (That's the purpose of Chi Kwan exercise)

Always remember: "LUK DIM BUN KWAN DOES NOT MAKE TWO SOUNDS!"


lmao ! so I have one shot ..or else, and im not allowed to deflect and strike more than once..hmmmm :rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

lmao ! so I have one shot ..or else, and im not allowed to deflect and strike more than once..hmmmm :rolleyes:

Only if the other Pole/Weaponry man is trained to kill ya K!

Another example of how old 'sayings' have become 'doctrine' for teaching in the present day.

Ofcourse the IDEAL would be to only hear your Pole make contact with the opponents weapon only once, but to be honest I'd prefer to hear no sound at all except for the strike landing itself!

Another interpretation of the 'one sound' relates to the 'stiffness' of the Pole. Some more flexible sticks reverberate and, intentionally or not, will rebound back to hit the target 2 or 3 times. This is also to be avoided as just one 'touch' was considered enough. Again, just sayings...

[k gledhill]

Thanks for reminding us all, except you forgot to add the reason; 'if its used to 'kill'...

When you 'train' the interactions, or so-called 'chi-gwan', OFCOURSE you will hear more than one sound!

I started this post in an attempt to meet some practitioners who may have some decent knowledge to exchange, but it looks like I'm wasting my time here as nobody seems to even relate to my 'half-pole' insights.

I really am a LoneTiger, and I feel like it will stay that way...

explain your thinking more.... what is your idea for the '1/2 pole '?

[k gledhill]

Only if the other Pole/Weaponry man is trained to kill ya K!

Another example of how old 'sayings' have become 'doctrine' for teaching in the present day.

Ofcourse the IDEAL would be to only hear your Pole make contact with the opponents weapon only once, but to be honest I'd prefer to hear no sound at all except for the strike landing itself!

Another interpretation of the 'one sound' relates to the 'stiffness' of the Pole. Some more flexible sticks reverberate and, intentionally or not, will rebound back to hit the target 2 or 3 times. This is also to be avoided as just one 'touch' was considered enough. Again, just sayings...


why else would he be pointing a loaded pole at me ? :D [ you are not missing the idea , but not mentioning the fact that this is why we simply strike to kill ya in one move .... we dont know what the other guy can do , how good he is...how many 'notches' does he have on his pole ??? so treat them all with the same 'extreme prejudice' and respect , never underestimate your opponent , a dying man always has one last action....]

old sayings are usually misinterpreted , goes with the cantonese language ....one needs
the idea , not 'let me think ' SLAP !! etc...

[LoneTiger108]

old sayings are usually misinterpreted , goes with the cantonese language ....one needs
the idea , not 'let me think ' SLAP !! etc...

So, K, what's your interpretation of the Cantonese name for our Pole Set? Is it Six Point(s) & Half Pole or Six and a Half Point Pole??

Fortunately for me, like yourself I believe, I learnt my Pole from a 'hands-on' perspective and restrained from believeing that seventies movies contained 'original training' like Simple_easys poking holes in rice paper. Nice for accuracy, but as far as distinguishing my points from my half? Maybe in the context of angular and square hitting you would get these resuts, but still doesn't explain why our form carries such a name... and whether we have all just got its meaning 'Lost in Translation'!

[Vajramusti]

Several different explanations have been given for the name of the kwan. Name puzzles are good to play with but more important are the nature of the motions.
FWIW Austin Goh's staff work is not my cup of tea. I do not think treating the kwan like a quarter staff is a good idea developmentally. Of course in the heat of action- different adjustments are possible.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

I explained before ....it means, that we have 6 (full) movements, which come from the body to the target... the last one teaches you how one can make a strike, when your arms already extended..... a strike after a strike... we call it half movement, because we strike with extended arms.

[CFT]

LoneTiger108 - I've not been following in detail so my apologies. Are you are saying there are 2 separate pole/staff sets? The half-pole set used like a quarterstaff as seen in sifu Austin Goh's videos, and then the more "normal" 6-1/2 point pole set? Do you have a half-point movement in the latter?

Surely they are actually different weapons? The 6-1/2 point pole is trained using a long tapered pole, whereas your half-pole looks like it is uniform in cross-section and much shorter.

[LoneTiger108]

First off CFT, yes I am saying that there are two distictly different Pole forms I have seen in Wing Chun. That which I've seen from the Ip Family, and that I have seen from the Lee Family. Both are 'totally different' in look, but I do believe they are portraying the same concepts. Lee Shing, however, preferred more traditional stick plays to help new students learn prior to the heavier pole being introduced.

I personally have practiced with both. Stick fighting isn't the same as pole fighting as preferences tend to vary on 'power generation' to start with. I also have to point out that the Sum Nung Set I posted in this thread is not 'mine' or Lee Shings, and I'm sure someone from this family can enlighten us as to 'why' this set was created. On reflection, Sum Nungs Pole Set is also sligtly different from Lees & Ips.

Before I go into an explanation, I have to ask a question:

How many of us understand the basic 'yum yeurng' (yin yang) concept passed through to us all in our Pole 'grip'?

One palm facing up, the other down (which one depends on your Sifu lol!) How we tend to distingush the 'half set' from the 'point set' is that the half pole tends to use the same hands, ie both palms facing down. It is only within Lee Shings pole that I have seen the practitioner then hold the pole in the middle, utilising both ends for close quarters more so than the points, where we tend to stay at one end of the pole using our longest ranges.

However, I have seen the famous Wong Shun Leung Pole, and they also have a set where both palms face downwards, albeit they stay at one end of the pole. I believe that he may have been the only Ip Family student who taught this, but as ever I am open to others coming forward...

Another 'saying' I've heard numerous times in the Lee Family is this:

"Without the stick, the father of all weapons, a pole is of no use."

[LoneTiger108]

A few clips of my Sifus daughters and his elder students at Seni'01 can be found here:

http://www.junmo.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=107

Note that all of the 'stick' clips are examples of Lee Shings Stick Plays, which are obviously not to be confused with standard 6 Point & Half Pole sets.

I will try to answer questions anyone may have, or you can always contact Jun Mo directly through the site.

[k gledhill]

I hate to rain on your event ...but the pole videos...thats not vt pole, its made up , from what ? who knows.

[LoneTiger108]

I hate to rain on your event ...but the pole videos...thats not vt pole, its made up , from what ? who knows.

Thanks for that k, I wasn't expecting such a b&w response so soon, especially from someone who, again, failed to even read what I wrote.

If only I knew what 'vt pole' was?! I don't believe any of the 'stick plays' here will be familiar to you as I did say:

"Note that all of the 'stick' clips are examples of Lee Shings Stick Plays, which are obviously not to be confused with standard 6 Point & Half Pole sets."

One thing wrong with people like yourself is that you throw out wild 'thats not vt' comments when something doesn't live up to 'your' image. Again, I am surprised at a WSL student being so ignorant but I hold no grudges and make no false claims.

The stick plays are real. They are not 'made up'. Austin Gohs Pole Form is as close to Lee Shings image as Joseph Lees. And Lee Shing knew WSL quite well apparently, not the same generation maybe but they had mutual respect. Sifu Joseph Man (who's knowledge you're dismissing) will be celebrating 30 years teaching next year, and his style of teaching has changed many times over this period. An elder to Austin and Joe Lee and even to Joseph Cheng and most others you would have heard of (if you researched us at all)

A great thing about being taught how to express yourself through Wing Chun by a known Master is that you can teach pretty much what you like, when you like and how you like. As long as it can be exlained.

Which is why I asked for questions, not narrow minded 'knee jerk' reactions to something you're obviously not familiar with...

[k gledhill]

My apologies :D ...I lived in london for 14 years , i know all the names mentioned, Ive met and observed them too...Austin Goh :D kung fu clown amongst the local's ...even gives diplomas out, lmaorotf ;)....

you yave "frogus in da wellus" syndrome ...ask your teacher about the chinese story of the frog in a well & the cricket...

Your arrogance suits your situation. an arrogant froggy ....ribbet

[LoneTiger108]

My apologies :D ...I lived in london for 14 years , i know all the names mentioned, Ive met and observed them too...Austin Goh :D kung fu clown amongst the local's ...even gives diplomas out, lmaorotf ;)....

you yave "frogus in da wellus" syndrome ...ask your teacher about the chinese story of the frog in a well & the cricket...

Your arrogance suits your situation. an arrogant froggy ....ribbet

There's that word again! You need a mirror as you obviously have had the blinkers on whilst writing your own 'arrogant' comments I'm afraid. Please feel free to explain how my posts are arrogant? (ribbet)

So what if you've 'observed' people from your 'time in London'! WTF?? Do you KNOW anyone from Lee Shings 1st generation?? Better still, have you met my Sifu and 'observed' his teachings? How has your Sifu influenced your attitude towards others? I suppose anyone who doesn't 'look' like Ip Man isn't Wing Chun then and that will include everyone from the mainland too lmao!

I have an idea for you k (Kevin?) Why don't you ask my Sifu yourself about your little story, as I find it a shame you even know such crap and obviously have an interest in these folklore lessons more than learning anything new about Wing Chun curriculae. Everyone told me that the 'family' was dying, and it's narrow minded insult throwers like you who are helping this happen.

Well, make that call and pay him a visit next time you're in London and I'm sure he will let you watch a class, take notes, ask any questions you like! Hell, maybe he'll even let you have a spar or something, knowing his no-nonsense approach!

Most of the people I've met like you k became his students, as they couldn't even answer his simplest questions. Many of them also had more than 15 years experience in Wing Chun, with 'many' other Sifu, so any judgement should be left to you actually putting yourself out just the once to find out for yourself. Better still ask Sifu Potter to explain how he knows my Sifu (you must know him too right?)

[LoneTiger108]

Actually, I don't even know why I get myself worked up over your insulting posts. Heard so many things over the years and still nobody has been able to even answer some of my questions, let alone my teachers'.

[k gledhill]

I met clive and did chi-sao with him once , hands on experience :D he was meant to be the head rep for WSL at the time :D ...Go ask Desmond Spencer in south london. he is doing something that might make you think again....its WSl thinking ;)
as for Lee Shing ...your deluding yourself.

btw I was a froggy in a well once too so dont feel alone , until Desmond fell into my well.....
you have to feel...not talk. Talking is an intellectual form of combat...VT is hands on , if it doesnt work you will find out REALLY QUICK .

Eveyone gets upset when they are told what they are doing is crap...I did , but I met a lot of guy's who similarly had spent time with 'name sifu's' who also taught a stylized version ....how do you know ...walk on...

[Ernie]

...your deluding yourself.
K .

Kevin ,,,,, that was just brutal [ simple , direct and ,,well you know the rest ,,] but still brutal :cool:



LoneTiger108 [Heard so many things over the years and still nobody has been able to even answer some of my questions, let alone my teachers]]

Did you ever consider the faint possibility that your '' questions '' were irrelevant ?:rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Im trying to help .... being brutal is what is needed sometimes , or we give room for , perhaps, maybe ...all words. I was in the London 'loop' of Vt i knew all and saw all and touched all...I dont just speak to annoy. Been there before you maybe ;) just sharing !

[LoneTiger108]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;814362]I met clive and did chi-sao with him once , hands on experience :D he was meant to be the head rep for WSL at the time :D ...Go ask Desmond Spencer in south london. he is doing something that might make you think again....its WSl thinking ;)
as for Lee Shing ...your deluding yourself.QUOTE]

Well, I see the insults are also thrown at your own family, and in public. Nice one! :eek:

I will check out Desmond, if he comes so highly recommended, as I am open to learn something new just as much as most who post on here. Any site, link number I can get hold of him on??

[CFT]

I will check out Desmond, if he comes so highly recommended, as I am open to learn something new just as much as most who post on here. Any site, link number I can get hold of him on??Desmond Spencer

Address:
Winchester Road Swiss Cottage NW3
London
United Kingdom

Telephone: +44 (0)2087767705

Information: Sunday at the Swiss Cottage Community Centre Trophy room, on Winchester Road Swiss Cottage NW3, times 2:30pm to 5:00pm. Tuesday and Thursday in South London Area, times 8:00pm to 10:00pm.

[LoneTiger108]

Thanks very much CFT! What a rapid response, do you train with Desmond? What can I expect to see at his school?

I couldn't get to the NW sessions though due to work, any info on the South London classes as I'm familiar with the area, especially Brixton.

[Ernie]

I'm not one to waste time on forums with '' made up nick names '' so I leave with this
we have all had a case of the dreaded '' Sifu-itus or Linage-itus '' and we get all wrapped up in our comfort zone blanket with a all the warm little fuzzies that come with it .
we think were special , our Sifu is special and our linage is special , and were so smart for picking the right place to be and train ,,, happens to us all it's part of the allure LOL

Reality is it's mainly BS and a pseudo pyramid / marketing scam

when you look at combat in it's raw form , it's really not that complicated 2 hands 2 feet body mechanics dominate positioning and the individual attributes to get there set it up and make the most out of it ...

when you see this ,,, you see through most of the junk that's out there

nothing wrong with preserving your family way if that's what your into just most of the ''training methods '' are dated and irrevalant in combat .. honest people will point that out .

you should also check out Kev Bell in South Hampton


PS... Kevin still doing research ;)

[k gledhill]

I throw stones at myself first :D I am who you are too...we are all very similar. :D Im just trying to get rid of the bs factor like ernie said , guys are making a living off you ....;)

[k gledhill]

Desmond Spencer

Address:
Winchester Road Swiss Cottage NW3
London
United Kingdom

Telephone: +44 (0)2087767705

Information: Sunday at the Swiss Cottage Community Centre Trophy room, on Winchester Road Swiss Cottage NW3, times 2:30pm to 5:00pm. Tuesday and Thursday in South London Area, times 8:00pm to 10:00pm.



hes a nice guy , hope you find something ....ribbet ..thas me ribbeting not you ;)

[LoneTiger108]

I'm not one to waste time on forums with '' made up nick names '' so I leave with this
we have all had a case of the dreaded '' Sifu-itus or Linage-itus '' and we get all wrapped up in our comfort zone blanket with a all the warm little fuzzies that come with it .
we think were special , our Sifu is special and our linage is special , and were so smart for picking the right place to be and train ,,, happens to us all it's part of the allure LOL

Reality is it's mainly BS and a pseudo pyramid / marketing scam

Sorry to actually 'care' about my teacher, his reputation and the memory of Lee Shing! I can relate to exactly what you're saying here, except I didn't 'pick' my teacher from a bunch and he didn't 'choose' me from a line up. It was something more than that, as it was with the five of us that went through the harder times.

One of the reasons we all drifted was because of the pyramid like scams you talk of here, except it wasn't exactly like that for me personally as I never really 'paid' to learn. Maybe most people just have a reaction to a single 'head', but I never really saw any issues in that.

I have never once said that I still train with him, yet peoples impressions of me are already full of the 'young newbie' stereotype.

I also only really learnt a small amount, in comparison to my elders who have been involved in Wing Chun since the seventies. They talked like you do too, especially about previous Sifus sometimes, but they understand why it all happened, and especially who Lee Shing 'was'! :cool:

[CFT]

Thanks very much CFT! What a rapid response, do you train with Desmond? What can I expect to see at his school?I don't train with Desmond, but I probably would if I still lived in NW London. I've got the information because at one point I was looking into training the WSL method - nothing came of it except finding out about various teachers scattered around the UK.

Just give him a ring and see where it takes you.

[LoneTiger108]

I throw stones at myself first :D I am who you are too...we are all very similar. :D Im just trying to get rid of the bs factor like ernie said , guys are making a living off you ....;)

Again, k! If you had read any of my otHer posts about how I learnt, you would have realized that my tuition cost me nothing (financially) as Sifu refused my payments. The 'money' factor only came into play when it became obvious some students just didn't want to learn how to teach properly, so they were expelled, and charged money when they returned when they couldn't find anywhere else to train like we did.

Lee Shing himself also never 'made a living' from his Martial Art knowledge, and that is something I do know. He was a millionaire Restauranteur! His wife and grand daughter have both personally assured me that this was 'just the way he was'. I'm also not saying that charging money is wrong, it just needs to be well managed and thought out beforehand.

I feel sorry for people that are drawn into all that 'Martial Arts Career' madness, as I feel it should always be about what you can give back to society, not what you can take away...

[Ernie]

Sorry to actually 'care' about my teacher, his reputation and the memory of Lee Shing! I can relate to exactly what you're saying here, except I didn't 'pick' my teacher from a bunch and he didn't 'choose' me from a line up. It was something more than that, as it was with the five of us that went through the harder times.



I'm sure everyone has there own sob story and persoanl rational [ part of the TMA mind f uck ] what ever floats your boat man ;)


LoneTiger108-- have never once said that I still train with him, yet peoples impressions of me are already full of the 'young newbie' stereotype.

Last bit of advice -- it's not the newbie thing it's your an overzealous linage banner waver ,,, no one really cares and most of us have learned to speak on personal experience not trying to stick our [ Gag ! ] linage into every single post .
might try and ease up on that if you plan to stay on the island :cool:

[LoneTiger108]

Last bit of advice -- it's not the newbie thing it's your an overzealous linage banner waver ,,, no one really cares and most of us have learned to speak on personal experience not trying to stick our [ Gag ! ] linage into every single post .
might try and ease up on that if you plan to stay on the island :cool:

Thanks for the advice. :confused:

Okay, so I started a thread on the Lee Shing Family and tend to write a lot, but 'overzealous linage banner'??? C'mon!! WTF??

Have you looked at your own 'brand' lately. No disrespect intended here but do you not teach 'Wong Shun Leung Gary Lam Ving Tsun'?? What is that if it's not a banner?? Strapped to your profile and every post you make in the form of a website. Modern marketing is all it is.

I guess you'll be teaching WSLGL Ernie Ving Tsun, and the 'overzealous banners' carry on and on...

[Ernie]

Thanks for the advice. :confused:

Okay, so I started a thread on the Lee Shing Family and tend to write a lot, but 'overzealous linage banner'??? C'mon!! WTF??

Have you looked at your own 'brand' lately. No disrespect intended here but do you not teach 'Wong Shun Leung Gary Lam Ving Tsun'?? What is that if it's not a banner?? Strapped to your profile and every post you make in the form of a website. Modern marketing is all it is.

I guess you'll be teaching WSLGL Ernie Ving Tsun, and the 'overzealous banners' carry on and on...

LOL you have a point ,, and i have thought about dumping the whole thing many times ,,,, just feels chessy ;)

but i don't rant about my teacher on every post like it's something special now do I ;)

as for the website link ,,, it just a link of initials isn't it :cool:

good luck with you journey :rolleyes:

[YungChun]

LOL you have a point ,, and i have thought about dumping the whole thing many times ,,,, just feels chessy ;)

but i don't rant about my teacher on every post like it's something special now do I ;)

as for the website link ,,, it just a link of initials isn't it :cool:

good luck with you journey :rolleyes:
Agreed...

So the information itself is what should be judged or evaluated not where it came from...right??? :cool:;)

[Ernie]

Agreed...

So the information itself is what should be judged or evaluated not where it came from...right??? :cool:;)


Yep focus on training methods that satisfy you personal criteria...some want to fight ...some want to pretend to fight .... some just want something to do and get a work out .... whatever makes em happy;)

as long as your digg'n what your doing all is well in the universe ,,,, just remember everyone has there own personal universe ,,,,, some are really out of this world :D

[LoneTiger108]

I can remember a time when I was 'playing' with a pole in class, aiming at the wooden man and using a wee bit too much imagination. I accidentally hit one of the arms and Sifu comes over and tells me off before removing all the arms and leg and placed them aside. On returning, he has four sticks, thick waxwood about 2 metres, and he slots them into the wooden man saying, 'hit these, that what they're for, not my arms!'

I continued in total numbness and trained the pole like I'd never even dreamed possible. We never showed this on any of the fifty performances we took part in during our time, but I still practice this way sometimes, just to remind me of those happy days...

Any other memories about training the Pole would be most welcome, as it is all in learning, sharing and seeing where we are all at today.

And thanks for at least discussing our views, now matter how it all seems at first I'm always only too happy to share training memories, especially about stick and pole work. Are you?

[LoneTiger108]

My new signature, and a link to our site-in-progress

[Liddel]

How many of us understand the basic 'yum yeurng' (yin yang) concept passed through to us all in our Pole 'grip'?

Id hope one would understand the Ying Yang relationship from the hand form which would then lead into the pole....despite the practical differences.

But for me in a nutshell - one hand drives while the other steers.
The relationship is important for me because if both hands are not used in unity and you dont understand the Ying Yang relationship you can stiffle your own actions.

I.E The lead hand can block the energy both hands should be sending down then pole. etc



However, I have seen the famous Wong Shun Leung Pole, and they also have a set where both palms face downwards, albeit they stay at one end of the pole. I believe that he may have been the only Ip Family student who taught this, but as ever I am open to others coming forward...


This is the same for me. Come from Lok Yiu. So perhaps WSL wasnt the only one.

Having our palms both facing down (or 'towards' the ground, meaning not facing straight down) makes it possible for us to 'liven' up the pole. Its enables the user to again, to send his force down the pole making the tip move.

This relationship of the palms facing the pole, lines up your bodies power lines (similar to power lines in a punch) with the pole. A different direction of the palms with regard to the pole and you lessen and at certain angles loose the ability to move the pole tip IME.

This leands itself to another point made earlier...about the one touch idea.

For me when putting the pole out if i have applied the right energy and the tip moves apon contact this creates many tiny hits (or at least more than one).

I would make a piont that this is NOT due to using a pole made from light wood - our pole is a heavy hard wood, so training right in the Arrow horse and Dan Kwan drills early on is crucial to developing good power to put into the pole.

This is why people with the same style as what ive been taught would refer to the BJD as a hand gun and the LDBK as machine gun - because of the mulitiple hits and power you can release with the pole.

Crude analogy but it gets the point across IMO.

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

This is the same for me. Come from Lok Yiu. So perhaps WSL wasnt the only one...

Having our palms both facing down (or 'towards' the ground, meaning not facing straight down) makes it possible for us to 'liven' up the pole. Its enables the user to again, to send his force down the pole making the tip move...

...This leands itself to another point made earlier...about the one touch idea.

DREW

I must apologize again to you for generalizing about 'who got what' as I do tend to just think of the UK history. My own narrow mindset, but I am learning.

It's interesting to see how you interpret the Yum Yeurng hands, and its refreshing to see someone who obviously had this idea early on in their training. I also like the 'crude analogy', although I do think its a realistic one!

Have you also trained on a "Pole Dummy'?

[Liddel]

I must apologize again to you for generalizing about 'who got what' as I do tend to just think of the UK history. My own narrow mindset, but I am learning.

Thats cool mate, no harm no foul. :)



Have you also trained on a "Pole Dummy'?

Just after learning the form i was at the stage of applying actions to dummies, Yes.
Shortly after was when i reluctantly gave it up in favour of the BJD.

I used the Mook Jong we use for H2H training, using the same arms etc.....

Sifu told me if i break it, i can have it.... LOL Its a mean Dummy, strong. ;)

I was told of a number of different training tools one can use for LDB training.
Including swining rings for accurate thrusting, bending tree branches in certain ways as targets etc etc....

Of course they were all secondary to a training partner for Chi Kwan and basic sparring drills against either another pole/staff or the BJD.

One good thing about my Sifu - hes very much into functionality, with a traditional flavour ;)

Im a bit gutted i couldnt continue with the LDB, but i do really enjoy the BJD... :rolleyes:

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

I was told of a number of different training tools one can use for LDB training.
Including swining rings for accurate thrusting, bending tree branches in certain ways as targets etc etc....

Ahh! The Rings! One of my personal favourites. Using a ring with the stick is great for your 'lap sau' strength I'm told.


Of course they were all secondary to a training partner for Chi Kwan and basic sparring drills against either another pole/staff or the BJD.

One good thing about my Sifu - hes very much into functionality, with a traditional flavour ;)

Are you sure your Sifu aint my Sifu?! We have more in common than I once thought Drew. Mind you, I still feel so young among these forums. Being new to all this discussion lark works better for me when I'm reading familiar experiences. I get too defensive sometimes but I'm always going to be a Wing Chun student.

This forum must've seen some things over the years and I still want to contribute when I can, and about things I know and have seen for myself. I like to hear of knife training from others, as I've put mine down for a few years now.

I feel that open chat about the stick and pole is a less 'serious' exchange. Thinking of the LDBG I also remember practising with a flag. Strange I know, but true...

[Liddel]

Ahh! The Rings! One of my personal favourites. Using a ring with the stick is great for your 'lap sau' strength I'm told.

This one was hanging from the roof and you thrust the pole through it, as you get better with your aim - we would make it smaller down to about a few cm in diam...



Are you sure your Sifu aint my Sifu?! We have more in common than I once thought Drew.

Ive seen you in some vids on Youtube (95% sure). While we have different applications with our VT, it seems the style of learning is quite similar. Perhaps it because of the way our teachers were taught TO teach :rolleyes:....

Whats Lee Shings lineage exactly ?
Ive seen some different explanations on different sites....

I still havent asked my teacher about him. Theres not many old timers Sifu doesnt know :)




I like to hear of knife training from others, as I've put mine down for a few years now.

Like i said functional with a traditional flavour... after learning the form and making the actions more second nature, we begin to do semi sparring drills against a pole etc. Then we began Chi Do training which is very much like soft sparring at first working up to harder contact. Intent is always the same, to hit the oppenent, unless isolating some aspect of application specifically.

I made wooden Do from a hard wood with brass hook fixtures for contact training like Chi Do. Sifu is agaisnt using fake metal ones cuase the sound is supposed to only be heard when in actual combat...bit traditional in that respect. ;)

He once told me that he had some Do made from the suspension of a vehicle back in HK. He got rid of them after they had been used for a while.
His idea is that even the hardest material after some 3000 hits will start to become soft and briitle. When you use a weapon for preserving life its better to be safe than sorry. So for the most part we spar with wood and do forms with metal for dexterity and strenght...extra weight etc...



Thinking of the LDBG I also remember practising with a flag. Strange I know, but true...

Sifu used to put some material on the tip of the pole when i would train the form and Dan Kwan. Its easier to see if your moving the tip enough with the material flapping when your energy reaches it....

Is this what you used the flag for... or do you mean holding a flag itself ?

Curious
DREW

[junmo]

Talk about shoot the messenger Kevin ;) ......interesting points of view going on in this thread from Lonetiger, Ernie and K...and from my perspective I feel I can accurately gauge the positive attributes of both the Lee Shing and WSL systems ...as I have had two excellent teachers in both.

My foundation in WC was from Sifu Joe Man in London,...and my WSL training partner is one of Gary Lams students (and Ernies old training partner) - Peter Hsu in shanghai.

The Lee Shing "stick plays" are not made up kevin....I spent some very hard, but rewarding years drilling this system, and the way in which it was taught to me opened up eyes to how creative the WC system is, and how you could make it your own.

Sure it may not be your cup of tea, but because anothers reality is not your reality - that doesn't make it invalid. My training now focusses on Gary Lam curricullum as it was taught to Pete.

Do I still utilise my Joe Man training and the way he taught me - hell yes!

Sure there are fundamental differences, but if the core concepts are there. The way I was taught the Lee Shing stick plays, and the interaction sets I drilled directly flow into my way of moving and "seeing" possibilities in the WSL system.

[Kris Wu Tang]

i think your all missing the 'point' no pun intended. 6 distinct moves and half a move?

if you look at the wing chun system the pole is the last thing taught. Maybe the half move has a more deeper meaning?

[LoneTiger108]

Perhaps you can help us to understand this 'half move'? I am not familiar with this interpretation myself (hence why I created this thread) but I am looking for assistance here as I feel it's a crucial factor which may assist understanding.

Lee Shings Pole Form has 6 distinct point postures, linked together with advanced stepping work and a half pole set utilising the pole as a quarter staff. I can understand that most 'forms' I have seen from other families seem to concentrate on our 'first point', commonly called 'biu gwan'.

Can anyone here actually 'name' the rest? We tended to just number the main points, but every 'jil' within the 'sik' was named. These are the little 'half-like' moves used to link the set together, definately not the same moves as the actual 'half-pole' set itself, but has the same 'idea' behind it maybe...

[omarthefish]

How do you translate 'Luk Dim Boon Gwun'?

Luk Dim Boon Gwun...

Even as a Mandarin speaker I can tell that that reads "六点半棍"

Luk Dim Boon = 6 1/2 or "6:30" or the like. This reading of it as "6 and a half point" makes no sense at all. Never mind the obvious ignored question (by most)...what the heck is a "half a technique"? I technique that you messed up? A technique you really didn't have your heart in? Come on guys. These explanations are silly.

The word "dim" or "point" is in between "6 and "half" which means that syntactically it's can't really mean any of those more obscure uses of the word "dim" like "conceptual points" or "striking points". "luk dim boon" is already a morphological noun phrase meaning "6 1/2".

You sure it doesn't just refer to the length of the pole? That's how it reads in Chinese.

[Kris Wu Tang]

Perhaps you can help us to understand this 'half move'? I am not familiar with this interpretation myself (hence why I created this thread) but I am looking for assistance here as I feel it's a crucial factor which may assist understanding.

Lee Shings Pole Form has 6 distinct point postures, linked together with advanced stepping work and a half pole set utilising the pole as a quarter staff. I can understand that most 'forms' I have seen from other families seem to concentrate on our 'first point', commonly called 'biu gwan'.

Can anyone here actually 'name' the rest? We tended to just number the main points, but every 'jil' within the 'sik' was named. These are the little 'half-like' moves used to link the set together, definately not the same moves as the actual 'half-pole' set itself, but has the same 'idea' behind it maybe...

I have 2 interpretations, and I muss stress these have come from my Si Gungs.

1. as mentioned its the overall length of the pole

2. the pole is the last method taught in the wing chun system the 1/2 point means even though you have completed the system you have only gone half way and need to piece everything back together to fully understand the system.

I like to think the second is a nice way of looking at it.

[k gledhill]

i give up...

[LoneTiger108]

This thread was started so people could openly 'share' their experiences with the stick/pole and debate whether we have misunderstood the translation of the name of our famous weaponry form.

Obviously some people can't even read contributions without being negative, and I suppose the thread will be a better place without them.

What interested me was omarthefish's post, as I have heard references to the pole methods as '6 & Half Pole'. Is this what you were meaning? I presume that if 'Luk Dim Boon' was translated as 6 1/2, there is no need to even mention the 'point'.

Talk of only being 'halfway' through the form makes sense to me also, as generally that's all I see in any of Ip Mans later students, including his sons. Only half the actual content is performed, maybe even less, as I rarely see points 3, 4, 5 & 6 and never see the half pole.

[k gledhill]

towel thrown ....:D :rolleyes:

[LoneTiger108]

Quit so soon?

I can only presume that this happened to you when you were learning Wing Chun, and you left before ANY decent information was shared...

[LoneTiger108]

... it isn't the fact you left Wing Chun too early, its simply because you obviously train in a highly competitive and sports orientated environment so the essence of little family systems like Wing Chun will just not fit-in well enough.

From a link on your contact page:

Large selection of classes all under one roof
• The combat sports fighting: Muay Thai kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Submission grappling, boxing, and mixed martial arts.
• The reality-based hand-to-hand combat training: SYSTEMA (Russian Martial Art) for practical street survival and self-protection.
• The fighting styles of Kung Fu: Ng Mui, Wing Chun, and the traditional Eagle Claw Kung Fu.
• Other classes offered: Escrima, Samurai Sword-fighting, and Kettlebell Weight Training.

May I ask, just to be polite, what class do 'you' teach?

[omarthefish]

What interested me was omarthefish's post, as I have heard references to the pole methods as '6 & Half Pole'. Is this what you were meaning? I presume that if 'Luk Dim Boon' was translated as 6 1/2, there is no need to even mention the 'point'.


Yes.

Here is is in Chinese:

六点半棍

luk/6/六 dim/point/点 boon/half/半 gun/staff/棍

The Chinese semantics for a phrase like "luk dim boon" is the same for English. In other words, the "point" in this phrase means "." That's right, a decimal point. A straight reading does not give you "6 and a half points" but rather "6 point half" or "6.5".

Now Gongfu terminology often plays by its own rules. Sometimes it's because it's classical or semi-classical Chinese. Sometimes it's just because they like to encode stuff in the names that only insiders would know. I'm just offering a little insight on how you would read the phrase "luk dim boon" in a "regular" linguistic setting. It reads as a number implying length. 6.5 "chi" (Ancient Chinese measurement for length) or 6.5 nodes on a piece of rattan.

"6.5" not "6 1/2 points".

Could also be just something weird about Cantonese grammar I haven't heard before.

[CFT]

You need the 点 in 六点半 to say "6.5".
Six "half" poles would be 六枝半棍


I'm just offering a little insight on how you would read the phrase "luk dim boon" in a "regular" linguistic setting. It reads as a number implying length. 6.5 "chi" (Ancient Chinese measurement for length) or 6.5 nodes on a piece of rattan.That's not a bad theory except I've not heard of anyone using rattan long poles before.

I don't think 六点半 has anything to do with the length - 6.5 what? 6.5 of the ancient "chi" comes out around 7.5ft which is much shorter than most wing Chun long poles (9ft upwards).

I always thought the "half point" was the leak (lau) concept.

[omarthefish]

Not having any direct experience with the WC pole forms I wouldn't have any idea how long its supposed to be. 7.5 feet is a pretty decent length for a pole. It's southern style so I figured rattan was possible although if it's really long then obviously it's more likely to be waxwood or something.

[k gledhill]

... it isn't the fact you left Wing Chun too early, its simply because you obviously train in a highly competitive and sports orientated environment so the essence of little family systems like Wing Chun will just not fit-in well enough.

From a link on your contact page:

Large selection of classes all under one roof
• The combat sports fighting: Muay Thai kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Submission grappling, boxing, and mixed martial arts.
• The reality-based hand-to-hand combat training: SYSTEMA (Russian Martial Art) for practical street survival and self-protection.
• The fighting styles of Kung Fu: Ng Mui, Wing Chun, and the traditional Eagle Claw Kung Fu.
• Other classes offered: Escrima, Samurai Sword-fighting, and Kettlebell Weight Training.

May I ask, just to be polite, what class do 'you' teach?


Fighthouse gym NYC is where I teach Ving Tsun or 'hang' my dummy ...one big happy family, I teach the students of other arts there VT, they do BJJ, Systema...etc...a lot of mixed approach, I have students who teach ground fighting ....I learn from them ;)
there are several other VT schools there too...
my website has my resume if your trying to do research...its simple like me :D made by me but it does the job :D

http://home.earthlink.net/~wslnyc/ there are some articles too by WSL & Philipp

[LoneTiger108]

Not having any direct experience with the WC pole forms I wouldn't have any idea how long its supposed to be. 7.5 feet is a pretty decent length for a pole. It's southern style so I figured rattan was possible although if it's really long then obviously it's more likely to be waxwood or something.

Not a bad guess at the length, but I'm sure others here will have their own ideas. The rattan poles, as far as my research goes, reminds me of the 'punting' guys in the harbours as it was a favourite due to its flexibility.

Waxwood has always been our Sifus choice, and again lengths varied. The Half Pole being considered the 'leaking' theory also sits well as you would need to know how to 'enter' into close range against long weaponry, closing the gap so to speak.

[Ali. R]

The popular belief is that Yip Man did not teach the pole form, and many that trains in the luk kim bok far as the Hong Kong version, have gotten it from somewhere else other then Yip Man….

No matter how much I try to convince my Sifu that the word on the street is this; Yip Man never learned that form and never taught it… My Sifu response to that was; “maybe he fooled his first 20 students, just as he fooled some of his later students”…

Here’s Yip Man; it maybe short but the structure tells the story, (that he did teach it)…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NiMQFiqAl8

And here’s the form as taught to me in its entirety (The Woo Fai Ching System)…
I’m getting old and don’t move like I use too, but I guess its ok…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G14Eh0S7RZM


Ali Rahim.

[Lindley]

Ali,

The pole and the knives are advances stages of the Ving Tsun System. Being so, they are for you to apply your Kung Fu knowledge and understand the nature of these weapons. They cannot be catagorized as mechanical "forms", thus is why it will differ from practicioner to practioner. No one is "wrong", unless they cannot explain what they are doing or not demonstrating Ving Tsun ideas and concepts (or doing something contradictory to). Hence, each member of the yip man clan may claim some basic foundation from which their students are to build from. There are stories told whereby seniors picked up the pole and played and that even back in the 50's there were very few who knew any of the weapons. Realistically, many people do not stay in the Kung fu long enough. There are some who say the weapons are not "practical", and this is their excuse for not training them. However their study is very profound, not obvious.

The pole represents a long range weapon. The techniques mimc the hand techniques whereby the fulcrums of elbow and wrist change positions from our body to include the pole as an extension of our body. The pole should be grasped such to hide the end by your hand and, when thrusted, hidden underneath your armpit for full extension. The pole covers your side center line. A good pole is about 8 to 9 feet, solid and tapered. The pole makes one sound, and should stop at a point. it's mastery makes it a powerful weapon, not one can easily enter your boundary as shown in various Wing Chun articles against the Knives.

Why question whether Yip Man knew the pole or not? No relevance to what you can get out of training it properly.

Good luck in your kung fu....

[Ali. R]

I was taught to thrush under the armpit, but only change it when demonstrating for speed… I have actually done this form for over 24 years, and by being 6’3 and with a 9-foot pole that weights 10lb (far as being tapered; is optional), I have no problem with reach… I can assure you, I can mimic just like everyone else does, but speed in this case is more of a reality then thrusting a stick underneath ones armpit for reach…

I’m not questioning what Yip Man has or not, I’m asking in some words; why do most believe it or not? In which I find it too be a very interesting subject, with the up most respect to Yip Man, and I do consider myself pro Yip Man with most love…

By the way great post...


Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

We have to understand when something is understood; you begin to understand the limits of everything you do…

There is always a happy medium within every structure; meaning, when the mind is free just live in the principles of what you are doing, because a tan sao can be high or low, to the outside or inside, but is only expressed in one or two ways when learning the forms, just with good integrity structure alone and maintaining the structures ideal, you will begin to find the limits of every movement within every form. And that is what makes a good demonstration or fight… Not class, but demo…

In other words, don’t become a robot when freeing the mind, and while expressing one's self never being a slave to the forms, but only the Ideal ,when ones mind is free…

When something is truly understood, there is no right or wrong way of doing things, just do them…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgT_5iOIVFA philipp Bayer pole fighting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc wong sheun leung


The pole teaches speed and explosive movement at an early level for bare hands . The ballistic actions we use in the pole directly cross to the hands / arms in displacing but holding our attacking lines....a focused strike using the leg 2 arms at max extension with the mass of a 9ft pole can produce a force equal to a 45 bullet :D taken in the neck or vertical centerline , legs /knees , feet and your in trouble .:D

The ballistic displacement is key in free fighting and pole, and some knife parries involving fast rotation of the knife blade that will also displace another knife while never leaving our center line open to be counter attacked , always the vu sao :D


Knowledge is power , anything in your hands can be a weapon , to say its not practical is to imply you would walk around with a 9ft pole...some just shoot pool ; ) carry an umbrella, etc... sweep the steps of dust ...

[Ali. R]

Hell, I like how you think!!! :D


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

I was taught to thrush under the armpit, but only change it when demonstrating for speed… I have actually done this form for over 24 years, and by being 6’3 and with a 9-foot pole that weights 10lb (far as being tapered; is optional), I have no problem with reach… I can assure you, I can mimic just like everyone else does, but speed in this case is more of a reality then thrusting a stick underneath ones armpit for reach...


As I was also taught. One thing that has also helped me is to practice slow execution with Qi Gong breathing to to reinforce the structure/muscle memory. This type of form training helps to develop continuity of techniques and applications as you are flowing right into the next posture with easy transitions and all the while keeping in mind the limits of the postures.
It is also wise to note that these are fighting forms. The footwork, structure and postures also contain the follow-through aspect (just the same as Luk-Sao). If the structure is correct and supports the movements of the form then the limits are defined by the expression at that moment, or to put it another way….


There is always a happy medium within every structure; meaning, when the mind is free just live in the principles of what you are doing, because a tan sao can be high or low, to the outside or inside, but is only expressed in one or two ways when learning the forms...

So when a form is taught it should be done with the benefit of the student in mind so that they can absorb the information completely. But when doing the form to demonstrate mastery of it you pull out the stops.


Thanks, Sifu Rahim.

[k gledhill]

I would add that there is a definite reason for adopting the tan and jum elbow training positions. It is specific to developing an ability within the system. ....but my point is:

What your inferring is that, and rightly I might add, is that we shouldn't be bound by a limit to the uses of anything we do. Not being a slave to a position/angle of an arm under one banner or idea .

We are all thinking, sentient beings with the ability to adapt and survive with 2 arms and 2 legs . The martial arts are limitless in personal utilization in any given situation.
There isn't one way, its all ways, always, or always, all way's . er ah yeah :rolleyes::D

If you dont know all ways then you better get on with it hadnt you ?

[Ali. R]

Oh yeah, when I step backwards the pole is meant to be that low in form, again showing limits of the forward thrust, in which is not as nearly high when stepping forward…


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

The popular belief is that Yip Man did not teach the pole form, and many that trains in the luk kim bok far as the Hong Kong version, have gotten it from somewhere else other then Yip Man

Really thats the first ive heard of this around this forum and ive been here for a while, i know its rare but.....


I was taught to thrush under the armpit, but only change it when demonstrating for speed…

Dude you should seriously get a Doctor to look at that...LOL
Sorry couldnt help myself :D

For me Ali the Action of thrusting out and having the driving hand under the armpit is a matter of power generation.

The movement creates energies that shake the tip of the pole which creates heavier contact when thrust into an opponent.

IMO its similar to inch power in your H2H actions.

So for me its not about reach at all. Its about energy development which is first introduced in Dan Kwan drills where i train.

The pole like the BJD has inherent energies that make it live.
Just like Bong Do's turining wrist to create sharp blocking force the pole has its own energy created by the user.

Use without these energies/movements make the actions more vunerable to failure IME.


I’m not questioning what Yip Man has or not, I’m asking in some words; why do most believe it or not?

For me personally, i believe Gm Ip did pass on the pole form.
He taught Lok Yiu who intern taught my Sifu. Later in his learning he had refinement from Gm Ip. He wasnt the only one.

I also believe that a similar situation occured to what im experiencing now.

My Sifu is too old now to teach new(er) students the pole. Its just to physically demanding for him.

I believe at least in his later days which were the most busy teaching times for Gm Ip that he was in a similar place...

Hence you had to learn from an assistant instructor of Ip's to learn the pole at this stage. Sifu Lok, WSL etc....

Thats my take for what its worth.

DREW

[Vajramusti]

Of course Ip Man taught the pole (and lots of motions with it)- but selectively.

Some learned from sihings and some talk about "seeing" Ip Man illustrate pole work with chop sticks over dim sum!!

The short clip of Ip man shooting out with the pole - shows him when he was already quite old.

Joy Chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

in reference to the Late GM Yip Mans 'way of passing information on'....

“It has been often suggested that Yip Man taught in a fairly unsystematic way, tending to pass on skills according to the student’s size and reach. It is also said that he didn’t have much time for his slower, less intelligent or less diligent students and actually taught few people the entire system in person. This in turn led to many people learning by observing others training, rather than first-hand, and that quite a few actually learn “second-hand” or even “third-hand” version of Ving Tsun filling the gaps in their knowledge with guesswork based on what they could recall seeing others do, or even worse, making it up out of their own imagination! This, of course gave rise to the variation in technique (and the interpretation of these techniques) extant today among instructors of the same generation, not to mention those of their younger Ving Tsun brothers and sisters.

Of all of Yip Man’s students, Sifu Wong Shun Leung probably spent the longest time under his tutelage because it was Sifu Wong who did most of the teaching in Yip Man’s school, whereas most of the other senior students opened their own schools and went about doing things their own way. Wong was therefore, always close to his teacher, could confer with his teacher and, observe his teacher, thereby picking up many of the subtleties which his peers never did. Sifu Wong was also the one Yip Man student who always put everything he had learned to the test, so he soon developed what can only be described as an intimate knowledge of the Ving Tsun system. Becoming known throughout Hong Kong as “Gong Sau Wong”, or “King of Talking with the Hands”, Sifu Wong took the Ving Tsun system to a whole new level and was never defeated in dozens of real life encounters with practitioners of a myriad of martial styles.”


I have been 'around' doing seminar's assisting with my old Sifu in the past , I found the variations are endless. Even my own sifu back then ...his own thinking even being a 'direct student' of the late GM himself.
At Some schools they teach in huge gym halls with no personal attention to students , who simply do a vt-bo [ trademarked by me ;) ] and just do moves like robots , looking over to the next guys to check themselves who also do the same in a circle back to the first pair looking at the next pair ; ) vicious circle of ? what the hell am I doing ? I know I'll copy you. Only they dont know they are also being copied ... !

[Vajramusti]

Of all of Yip Man’s students, Sifu Wong Shun Leung probably spent the longest time under his tutelage because it was Sifu Wong who did most of the teaching in Yip Man’s school, whereas most of the other senior students opened their own schools and went about doing things their own way.(Gledhill))

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generalizations can have their problems of over-reaching. I have nothing but great respect for
the late great Won Shun Leung. Met him twice(San Francisco and Houston) and did brief rolling with him during his first visit to the US. His fighting brought early renown for wing chun in Hong Kong.Given his startup date he would have been the current patriarch of Ip man's wing chun family.

"Longest time?"..thats a differrnt issue.And definitions can matter. There was atleast one other person who started about two years after WSL, took prolonged regular one to one lessons from Ip man and conferred with him till the every end and has trained some pretty good wing chun people.

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

From my personal research over the years, I know who definately learned the pole form from Yip Man:

Wong Shun Leung
Hawkins Cheung
Moy Yat
Lo Man Kam
Leung Ting
Lok Yiu
Tsui Sheung Tien
Yip Ching
Ho Luen

This list is by no means exhaustive, but I have seen the sets of these men and I know the set and its trademark moves with minor varaitions. Lok Yiu had one of the finest standards in the pole in Yip Man WCK. In fact, in his article way back in the HK publication, Sun Mo Hop, in the 1970's, he listed the entire set out.

All these men and their followers pass down the pole almost identical. The basic training is more or less the same, as is the set. And to top it off, their pole set coincides with the YKS/Sum Nung WCK 6.5 point pole pattern.

Some of Yip Man's people learned through demonstration of chopsticks at the dim sum table. Others have added their signature moves and variation. Many are lacking in real pole skill.

The grip is the width of the 2 hands at side of the body in SNT. The thrust is from armpit. The Sou Gwun and Dang Tiu Gwun are signature moves.

Yip Man often gave his students a choice to ether learn the pole set or knife set. Rarely did he teach both to any person. Some he taught the pole moves individually (as points) to, but no set.

When you've been around as long as I have you know what is really taught by Yip Man, and what is not.

Best regards,

[monji112000]

From my personal research over the years, I know who definately learned the pole form from Yip Man:

Wong Shun Leung
Hawkins Cheung
Moy Yat
Lo Man Kam
Leung Ting
Lok Yiu
Tsui Sheung Tien
Yip Ching
Ho Luen



I'm pretty sure Duncan Leung learned the form and its applications.

I believe the confusion about the form and its fighting applications come from the fact that it was probably added to the system. (befor Ip Man)..

Who knows..

[Ali. R]

Dude you should seriously get a Doctor to look at that...LOL Sorry couldnt help myself :D.

You are the first to say that “I have no power”, power has never came from the forms or a movement, but from overall integrity structure alone, in something I’m sure you know nothing about LOL, Sorry couldnt help myself :D...


For me Ali the Action of thrusting out and having the driving hand under the armpit is a matter of power generation.

But for many others, reach… But for you, power?

If one truly understands overall integrity structure with in wing chun, then one would never have to mention the word power... unless your new to the game while still using muscle...

That pole weights 10lb & is 9 foot tall, no room for muscles or just movements , but overall body structure for speed and power (integrity structure)...

If one just thinks of movements and keep thinking of the forms while freeing his mind, then there will be no true flow, but only stiffness and maybe just one or two move when under pressure,when especially using the pole...

Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

You are the first to say that “I have no power”, power has never came from the forms or a movement, but from overall integrity structure alone, in something I’m sure you know nothing about LOL, Sorry couldnt help myself :D...

Bruva chill out - i never said you dont have power. Please don't think thats what im saying, cause im not.

Besides which im happy to disagree with anyone, we obviously have different approaches. I only ever offered my take as another opinoin, not law !

You did ask others take on the LDB - i gave mine. No alterior motives on my part man :o

The Doctor call was a joke, you had a typo writing thrust and posted an STD instead thrush LOL take a joke bro.



.... for many others, reach… But for you, power?

From what i see in the clip we hold the Kwan different and our form is different also. So yes its not about reach for me. Thats it !

Is it a sin to not be the same as you ? WTF



If one truly understands overall integrity structure with in wing chun, then one would never have to mention the word power... unless your new to the game while still using muscle...

A smart and experienced individual would realise that good body mechanics should support and provide power/force. issued or recieved.

Your the one focusing on muscle power and from where i dont know cause i didnt refer to muscle power at all in my post.

To reiterate, FOR ME the mechanics involved in the thrust provide forces from said movement into the pole creating the tip to move, releasing forces into a target...akin to inch power in the hand forms. In the case of the Kwan, introduced in the Dan Kwan drill.

I dont do the action for reach but to gain something from the mechanics of said action. That being force, a stabbing force.

IME its making a weapon live and dynamic in attack and defence. You may have this very force im talking about :rolleyes: but generate it another way for all i know.

Perhaps its why Kev mentions the terms Ballistic energies...Kev care to elaborate ?

Imagine blocking a swing of the pole with any weapon, now imagine blocking the same action with the pole shaking...

Ever hit a golf ball and had the club vibrate energy back into your hands...it can hurt.

Ever caught a Grid Iron ball with perfect spin on it, it can hurt your hands....energy is transfered into you.

Throw a baseball flat, then throw it with spin. The ball will have a differnt force all together.

These are some examples outside VT that are similar to what im getting at.
Giving the pole a force of it own based on the machanics of how you use it.

I dont know how to put it any other way sperate to actually showing you....

This is what the thrust is utilised for in my LDB, not reach.



That pole weights 10lb & is 9 foot tall, no room for muscles or just movements , but overall body structure for speed and power (integrity structure)...

This is rediculous IMO, its a narrow traditionalist view pushed to the extreme.
I.E Picking your nose requires muscles to move your arm hand and finger towards its target LOL :D

I get what your saying though, structure should be first and foremost and without it you dont have much. But thinking perfect structure can suffice without muscles is silly IMO. Its not all or nothing.



If one just thinks of movements and keep thinking of the forms while freeing his mind, then there will be no true flow, but only stiffness and maybe just one or two move when under pressure,when especially using the pole...


No disagreement here, Chi Kwan anyone ?

DREW

[bennyvt]

Talking about reach in the video you seem to be leaning when you do the thrusts. I always thought that the idea was to step with the strike but not to lose your structure as the pole is a heavy weapon meaning you could strain your back bending forward with it.
Your pole also seems light and bendy. The pole I have seen are normally heavy and would not bend. This may be why the vibration from the force of the thrust may not be felt, as it disapates with the flexibility of the pole.
No muscle required. This comes up every now and then and it is simply like living in the dark ages if you think that any action can be performed without muscle contraction. It is needed just forus to stand up, breathe etc. The idea is that the stronger you are, the less amount of muscle fibres needed for an action the more relaxed you can be. It always big guys saying, no you need to completly relax, this only works when you have much more strength then the other guy. If you completly relaxed your hands would drop and you would get hit.
I am reminded of Sifu Cliff Au Yeung, he is slightly taller then me (im 165cms) and looks thin but athletic. When he picks up the pole its like the changing into the hulk. Muscles pop up from every where.
The pole is also thought of (only minimally) as a strengthening exercise to further develop stance and body unity. You need really good core stability to even hold the thing up. Hence the teaching of the pole exercises (the movement that looks like a 7, the step and thrust etc), then the form, then the drills or sticky pole exercises etc.
I am not up to it so I dont know all the things needed to learn it completly. But from my teach I have heard of Sifu Lok Yiu being called the king of the pole and was said to be the best with the pole.

[Ali. R]

Sure I thrusted with my body going forward, and that’s part of body unity, very little muscle use at all… How do you think someone with a small stature could swing such a pole and with speed and power? With muscles? Then you are wrong, without body unity you have nothing…

You show me someone that swings the pole with all muscle and I will show you a slow a$$ robot, and far as the back is concerned, that’s a typical shoalin thrust no strain anywhere…

I’m not claiming anything and could care less on who’s the best in what ever… And I think we all need too think clearly on the one’s who we call the leading predecessor of higher learning (weapons), because there’s is always someone better…


I am not up to it so I dont know all the things needed to learn it completly. But from my teach I have heard of Sifu Lok Yiu being called the king of the pole and was said to be the best with the pole.

And that is what makes all the reasons when it comes to your confusion dealing with this subject…


Completely relaxed your hands would drop and you would get hit.

Just don’t have a clue, again… Not muscle; but "Jing lik sao"...


I am not up to it so I don’t know all the things needed to learn it completly.

I have well over a hundred clips up, show me where I use force in any of them, and the bend of the pole comes from the consistent flow of relaxation, while learning too use the pole just as a whip and only through relaxation can you accomplish this, in which took me many years too do...

There’s not a bend on the thrust, that’s just how the camera took the clip, it’s my hand making it move while pushing the tip forward from the back just after the thrust (what chew no about dat?).

The bend only happens when you see a bend, not that double vision stuff you see… And if you look closely you will see that my body does the same thing (double vision) , cheap camera, but came out cool as hell…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

The best way to talk of ballistic energy in the system is to give it relativity to use ...Ill try :D

The pole is a major part of a vt fighters development in using the displacing ballistic energy to clear or open doors/arms /legs to entry for attack, that otherwise would stalemate us into a clinching/sticking /hand chasing scenario.

Simply because , rather than displacing to REMOVE the ability to feel me and my attacking intentions , energy etc...force direction. I establish a bridge , I want to sink your bridge ! iow blow up the bridge so you cant use it against me.

I dont want to touch your arms for the sake of feeling, i want circumnavigate them in the most direct line [ centerline flanking ] and efficient method I can, to strike you first, so they have to chase mine to stop them...if they dont adopt intercepting counter lines as we do, I have an advantage by being able to maintain attacking lines while adopting ballistic removal along any attempts to stop the assault. Most traditional methods of blocking are lateral to linear incoming strikes...vt is capable from training to deflect the striekes while striking back....2 arm actions in 1 strike , with each arm developed to do this alone ...ballistic lateral force with linear strikes...

The chum kil teaches some of this...how to recover the attack by removing the guys bridging arm so we can strike past it with the vu-sao [ vu-sao is the queen on the chess board of vt hands].
The pole directly teaches this concept of remove to clear then strike if the OBVIOUS strike isnt available ;) , our arms can do this in unison but not extended out together as chi-sao , one always following the other man -> vu [recover vu ]man -> vu perpetually. This concept means we wont ever be trapped to be able to strike a strike as the response...unless grabbed arm /pole is lifted up etc...bil gee moments.

The force we can generate increases with understanding of elbow control not chi-sao sticking/clinching. So the aim becomes to strike using simultaneously clearing ballistic arms capable of doing 2 actions per strike alone BEFORE we even start to use a chum kil arm/bridge 'blowing up' sequence...or turning jut saos often confused wit lop sao from bil gee .

The dan chisao becomes a place to develop a lateral displacing force from the centerline line, while striking after the initial ballistic energy control/alignment of the elbow is used to clear your partners incoming tan strike , then followed by line clearing ballistic bong sao displacing the jum left to right or right to left relative to the line ...simply to open the door for the VU sao ergo all the repetitions in chum kil to prep the vu by clearing with bong. If the bong is developed as a rolling sticking trap or an up an down block , it is removed from a follow up and you enter into a wrestling idea using a vt shape...a common thing but offers a 'bridge' to fight you with..

I'm trying to not let you feel me so I can strike as YOU CHASE my hands to try to make controlling contact...cycling back to a tan [aka pre-strike with outward ballistic elbow energy] again and again and again ...to free fight with striking ...not ruining your ability by sticking redundantly in a clinch idea... not vt thinking to stick and use chi-sao as a standing ruck and roll to lop n chop :D

"I am the rain you are the windshield wipers..what side of the car I attack is up to you, and if you are coming at me or in reverse." corny but conveys a simple idea. lmao " I am the rain " lol

We fight using the pole ideas as a primary method to develop the arms.

Are they experts in tactical vt striking attacks ? how good is their attack ? do they train to throw combos and back off to recoup and re enter ? are they ducking and shooting inon lines you can shift to in side stances ?

... these are the things we fight pre-contact, entry to us along a route a-b..from a perimeter ..the training we do incorporates lin sil di da , attacking 50 % of the person sides, not fronts. with 100% of our facing with 2 arms training ...

% good for us , bad for them. no guarantees or magic bullets, just trained ability in simple striking attacks that are very aggressive by nature of delivery to avoid a counter attack.
An attack as defense is a vt concept , the techniques adopted are to allow a constant barrage along with the ability to not deviate from your attack using trained arms capable of overwhelming someone who is under this assault. Using ballistic energy in arms that seem to simply be striking like a normal punch ... a chain punch :D elbow positions are critical to avoid walking into counters while the training in chi-sao makes us know instinctively were to move to to perpetuate the attack not thinking to deal with blocking hands.....

Po pai is also a short ballistic shove to regain space to work our ideas if the guy simplt covers up before us. Rather than stopping to feel them :D we rudely shove them to an imaginary exit our minds are set on to take them to, by hittin g, kicking , shoving , pulling whatever ...



Ballistic energy in unison with constant attacking along a trained line never in front of an incoming attack in a stick off /clinch can raise your chances dramatically.

Do you do this way too ? use chi-sao to avoid being stuck to, or to stick to people ?


the pole to me . our arms are like a pole in 2 parts, the lead opens if unable to strike so the 2nd pole/hand can following cleanly...if blocked repeat as required until you have finished ..then its a question of finding the level of pressure required to induce a mistake , all the while simply firing in but not front and center like lead leg you tube charge ; )

[Ali. R]

To me the pole form is nothing more then a variation on a shaolin spear form that I know, from the thrust to the pulling back of the pole, in which resembles thrusting the spearhead in and pulling backwards, cutting or slashing upwards…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

do you use ballistic force as I wrote ?

[Liddel]

I do to some extent Kev, thanks for the clarification. I like several of your points.
Especially the concepts of attack and defence combined found in the hand actions also.

Now that you've defined your use of the term Ballistic a little more i realise its seperate to what i was refering to in terms of loading the pole with your energy. ( but your point is just as if not more valid)

What i was getting at was -
The mechanics of the form teaches me to make the pole alive, seperate again to dynamic force from movement and body unity...

They should all work together for the best results possible but IMO for the sake of discussion, are seperate individual contributors that combined give an over all effectiveness. :rolleyes:

Question to anyone - were you ever asked in the learning development of the LDB to train your energy in the Dan Kwan drill.

Performing a Dan Kwan over and over trying to make the tip of the pole move/shake/rattle what ever you want to call it ?
Not the whole pole, not the center of the pole or from your hands foward but the tip only.

When i began learning, Dan kwan was the first thing i did with the pole prior to learning the form.

When i could make the tip shake to the size of tennis ball i was then taught the form.
(our poles are heavy and a hard wood, quite stiff and not easy to make bend, they are for fighting after all)

One way to make it more apparent that you can get your energy to the tip is to attach a ribbon or string to the end. If your energy is getting to the tip it releases out the ribbon like a ripple.

Its not an easy thing to do mainly because the energy comes from both hands but early on you realise that the foward hand if gripped to tight can stiffle or stop your force from getting any further down the pole. Dead pole :o

As far as application. Think of stabbing the pole out and it hits its target....
in out. The target feels like it was hit once.

Do the same action but this time with the force im talking about and the target will feel like a few stabs hit it as it shakes from the energies and is released into the target. Its small and quick though and your not leaving any action out.

Anyone ever heard Sifu Lok's anolgy that the BJD is like a hand gun and the LDB is like a machine gun ?

This is a crude explanation of the type of energies im refering to.

My prefered anology is its like inch power in the hand forms, only in the weapons.

And like the H2H actions you can manifest them into blocking and attacking actions.

So that leads back to the post about the thrust being about reach for some.

The thrust action of the kwan under the pit FOR ME, is another way of creating this energy, increasing its effectiveness of attacking but at the same time blocking any attacks from the opponent, which you touched on in your previous post. :)

I hope im making sence cause its a very easy thing to show IME but a little complicated to convey on a forum. :o

P.S Thanks for the clip of Sifu Bayer, nice Chi Kwan. That guy impresses me, especially cause he is at a natural physical disadvantage...... (well, percieved :p)
very cool.

DREW

[k gledhill]

Glad I made some sense , I wonder when i reread my own stuff :D

Yes Philipp does the dan kwan thinking as a by-product of the ballistic actions at the hands holding the pole to a sudden stop...When you can control the power energy and focus the horizontal line / tip ...DOONNNNGGG :D I heard Philipp say he never misses with the pole tip strike, after doing the strriking I found that even weilding a 9ft pole the accuracy was remarkable, like thinking to poke your index finger into a point only extended 9 FT !

we train as the WSL clip in basic arcs /lines and stabs ....the dan kwan is the manifestation of abrupt energy maxing out and the body holding it by hands /structure ...solid :cool: I remember Bruce Lee in enter the dragon doing some pole work and executing the very 'dan kwan' e mention , same teacher , WSL. many moons ago....

The hands are from pole 'thinking' empowered with a displacing energy that begins to happen in all actions , small sparks of energy 'ging' done with a simultaneous attack, delivering 2 lines of force either in one arm at a time , or combo door openers ...

We also use chi-sao for this connection , not to stick but to use the partners to striek each others strikes, tan versus jum, ong deflects jum recovers to tan, small door openers ...pak to jut responses with tans or jums as strikes against each other ...stepping in attacks with tan v ju angling ...

dan chi-sao is a drill [redindant beyond the 2 stages] is simply to start the elbow control to real force of your partners tan energy trying to displace as it hits in...jum is trying to hold as it strikes along the inside line....different thinking to sticking altogether.

and no wrist use because it involves energy at the tip of the 'pole' as the deflecting/chasing point , losing the strike if it misses contact , rather than dan kwan to a space ..contact or not you still strike from a centered position, as Philipp mentioned he never misses ;). not good for me :D

[Ali. R]

Glad I made some sense , I wonder when i reread my own stuff :D

Sounds and seems like we both re-read our post over once again (after a small debate, I always get that, a lot.)… If one already knew, then why debate that fact from the start? :rolleyes:

Yes, pretty much the same energy, but very different language… :D


Ali Rahim.

[bennyvt]

This topic came about from you saying that yip man didnt teach a pole form. Now everyone who knows anything knows he did. Many didnt who say they did but that doesnt mean noone learnt. From what I have been told Yip man asked if you wanted to learn the pole or knives. Lok yiu was the best and most known for his pole. Only people trying to start a fight would start a topic this way. If it had been about the pole then fair enough but the whole , "well everyone made it up", is trolling.
Body unity, using the body as a whole. this is no excuse as to why you would be leaning. Leaning with a heavy pole (10lbs, Im from Australia and that about 4-5 kilos, if this is a heavy pole then Im jesus. Im 165cms, about 5foot 2" and I could throw that around.) when someone blocks it would rip your back to shredds.
The moveing without muscles is crap. You are either an idiot or haven been to school in the last 50years if you think that any action can be done without muscular contraction. I have a diploma in fitness and remedial massage and have learn alot of anatomy and if you said that in a class you would be laughed at and send home. Yes the idea is not to be so tense that you cannot move but if you stop using your muscles you could stand or live (your heart being a muscle which contracts to pump blood.
"The typical shoalin thrust" and "that its like the shoalin spear" this give the indication that you are not doing the VT pole form. The spear is thrust from the back hand bringing it closer to the front hand. This is not done in VT.
Just cause I havent learnt the form does not mean I dont know how to do it and can have someone teach me the wrong thing. I have seen many people doing the form and had it explained many times.
Jing lik sao: there we go again. It amazes me how people think that if they use chinese terms to explain something it makes it right. Simply if you dont use muscle then your hands dont move they just hang limply at your side. Ask any doctor or anyone with some training in muscle movement or anatomy they will tell you the same. Just because you have some chinese term for chi or what ever **** they talk about doesnt make you right. Simply the body is a bunch of levers and pulleys, when the pulley (muscle) is shortened the body moves, if it stay tight the body stays in that poistion (standing). There is no magic fairy energy that makes your body move with muscles. Sorry we are not in warcraft world. This may seem harse if you just mean that you need to be relax as much as possible while still using your muscle to hold and move the pole, if that is the case then I am sorry.
Without force there is no use doing the pole. It would not block or hurt anything without force. Power is a strange thing. The more strength you use the less power, the more speed you use the less power. It is seen as a curve on a graph. That is why it is easy for someone who is very big( as compared to me) becaus they have heaps of strength so they just relax, use speed and power is there. But if I hit completly relax it doesnt do anything. VT is both a hard and soft style meaning you use both when needed. Not be completly relax or really tense but use as much as you need to block or strike. The form you do may flow but it is more like a nice dance. The forms are not supposed to have a rythm as the VT person is taught not to develop a rythm but to attack the other persons.
The whole "What chew no about that". They are many people that can do the moves of every form without really knowing how to do them. I may not have been taught the form but I know alot about it and have seen people that know what they are doing. I was saying that I cannot say for sure that they are all the exercises not that I dont know about the pole.

[k gledhill]

here we go again...:rolleyes:

[Ali. R]

It’s very obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about… Remember you said this?


I am not up to it so I don’t know all the things needed to learn it completly. .

I’m with you dealing with Yip Man and like I said; I truly believe he taught the pole form and never said different, but I know plenty of people that said he didn’t… And what’s your point?

The more you talk, the more you show us that you know nothing…

You know nothing of freedom of expression…

You know nothing of limits…

You know nothing of jing…

You know nothing of interdependent structure...

You know nothing of consecutive integrity structure with full expression…

And as you said yourself; you know nothing of Luk kim Bok...

Hell you just don't know nothing... And next time you speak to me; never forget this…


I am not up to it so I don’t know all the things needed to learn it completly. .

I think I know… is it because you just don’t know? How can someone learn something completely when one never even got to it yet, not only that; how can someone debate something when they never fully experience it?

Remember you said it yourself...
I don’t know.

And with all that said, you bring the truth to the saying: “I see your mouth moving, but you ant saying nothing”…


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

Philipp used to go up and down a football pitch doing the punching pole exercises , stamina building stuff. :D

I use a plywood board on a pillar to strike for impact/alignment. ive seen guys use a board with a 'grid' to choose a box and strike 10x10 squares 2inches square each.

Anyone put a candle out from 9ft away with a pole tip yet ? [brings back memories f early days doing this with candle and fist, wax everywhere at first lmao!]

[Liddel]

Anyone put a candle out from 9ft away with a pole tip yet ? [brings back memories of early days doing this with candle and fist, wax everywhere at first lmao!]

LOL, ive never done the candle thing with the pole before...sounds fun.

Only those inch power demos where you punch the flame out from an inch away.

Ive used a tree in my Sifu's backyard using branches and hung rings for accuracy etc etc.

Ive seen a nice clip of Gary Lams guys doing similar stuff, its a lot of the old school type training where you utilise things around you that are free. :p

They show that they have actual application rather than putting up 1000 clips of forms and training with your own students :rolleyes: who could that be........LOL

DREW

[Ali. R]

They show that they have actual application rather than putting up 1000 clips of forms and training with your own students :rolleyes: who could that be........LOL

DREW


I teach all my student applications with the pole and wing chun, you haven’t seen any applications so far here on this thread so why talk crap, why fu*k me, I know why?

It’s very easy to smash someone on this forum (like you) when they show their true feelings, because there is no substance to their madness, just madness and hate…

Which automatically shows their true colors. Here… (http://detroitwingchun.com/thetroll.htm)



Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[k gledhill]

Of all of Yip Man’s students, Sifu Wong Shun Leung probably spent the longest time under his tutelage because it was Sifu Wong who did most of the teaching in Yip Man’s school, whereas most of the other senior students opened their own schools and went about doing things their own way.(Gledhill))

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generalizations can have their problems of over-reaching. I have nothing but great respect for
the late great Won Shun Leung. Met him twice(San Francisco and Houston) and did brief rolling with him during his first visit to the US. His fighting brought early renown for wing chun in Hong Kong.Given his startup date he would have been the current patriarch of Ip man's wing chun family.

"Longest time?"..thats a differrnt issue.And definitions can matter. There was atleast one other person who started about two years after WSL, took prolonged regular one to one lessons from Ip man and conferred with him till the every end and has trained some pretty good wing chun people.

joy chaudhuri


Was he a fighter too ?

[Graychuan]

"Longest time?"..thats a differrnt issue.And definitions can matter. There was atleast one other person who started about two years after WSL, took prolonged regular one to one lessons from Ip man and conferred with him till the every end and has trained some *pretty good wing chun people*.

joy chaudhuri


Imma guess and say this was Leung Sheung. A good friend of *Woo Fai Ching.*

[Liddel]

Imma guess and say this was Leung Sheung. A good friend of *Woo Fai Ching.*

From what ive been told LS began before Lok Yiu who had a few months on WSL, not two years after WSL like Joy posted, im curious to know who hes talking about and if thier are any clips of others Kwan Form.

Ali wrote -

I teach all my student applications with the pole and wing chun

Id hope so cause if you dont teach application thier getting ripped :rolleyes:


you haven’t seen any applications so far here on this thread so why talk crap

So what i said was true, you dont show application in your clips posted.
and hows that talking crap ? :o LOL

Benny was up front and honest stating -

I don’t know all the things needed to learn it completly. .

and you blew that out to -

The more you talk, the more you show us that you know nothing...

and whos the hater ?

How ironic, with your stance of muscle use being all or nothing and now its the same with knowledge of the LDB.

If you dont know it all you know nothing. How open minded.

I hate forum BS but its hard not to take issue when others can respectfully disagree without the personal attacks you bring to the table.

If you didnt want others opinions then you should have thought of that when statrting this thread bruva.

P.S you have awesome taste in music in your clips.... Jimi is the man.

Lets just agree to disagree :) ok.

DREW

[Graychuan]

Talking about reach in the video you seem to be leaning when you do the thrusts. I always thought that the idea was to step with the strike but not to lose your structure as the pole is a heavy weapon meaning you could strain your back bending forward with it.
Your pole also seems light and bendy. The pole I have seen are normally heavy and would not bend. This may be why the vibration from the force of the thrust may not be felt, as it disapates with the flexibility of the pole.
No muscle required. This comes up every now and then and it is simply like living in the dark ages if you think that any action can be performed without muscle contraction. It is needed just forus to stand up, breathe etc. The idea is that the stronger you are, the less amount of muscle fibres needed for an action the more relaxed you can be. It always big guys saying, no you need to completly relax, this only works when you have much more strength then the other guy. If you completly relaxed your hands would drop and you would get hit.
I am reminded of Sifu Cliff Au Yeung, he is slightly taller then me (im 165cms) and looks thin but athletic. When he picks up the pole its like the changing into the hulk. Muscles pop up from every where.
The pole is also thought of (only minimally) as a strengthening exercise to further develop stance and body unity. You need really good core stability to even hold the thing up. Hence the teaching of the pole exercises (the movement that looks like a 7, the step and thrust etc), then the form, then the drills or sticky pole exercises etc.
I am not up to it so I dont know all the things needed to learn it completly. But from my teach I have heard of Sifu Lok Yiu being called the king of the pole and was said to be the best with the pole.

Hey,Liddel...if you actually read this post again you will see about 20-25 lines of CRITICISM about a person who has the pole and has had it for quite some time FROM someone who doesnt even have the form but has only seen it by others. Then only 3 lines at the very end letting us all know that he doesnt even have the form. I think Sifu Ali's respose was appropriate. Which is why this statement...




The more you talk, the more you show us that you know nothing…



was also appropriate. Also you need to stay focused on the discussion. This is about whether or not Yip Man taught the pole to any of his students. It didnt become about the applications until Ali put up the video. But this is nothing new. You ,especially,Liddel, come out of the woodwork with much hate and trolling whenever ALI posts a vid. If Benny has a problem with what was posted Benny can come back on and tell us more about what he hasnt learned without you helping him.

[Ali. R]

How ironic, with your stance of muscle use being all or nothing and now its the same with knowledge of the LDB.


Your way off and dont have a clue, Liddel...

‘Leung Sheung’ Yip Man’s first Hong Kong student was also there with ‘Yip Man’ to the end, Chris…


No intention to offend.

Listen, you came as if you had no bad intention at least that is what you wrote (while telling me to chill out), but I’m sure you didn’t believe that yourself…

I have been saying the same thing right from the jump, and you even said "no intention to offend". Based on the same information that I’ve been given all alone from the start...

Now you saying I don’t teach applications in which are all over my website that proves that I do… You just turned on me for no reason and after reinsuring me of no harm, why do you do this?

While trying to bash everything that I do or say, all one has to do is go back through the forum, and watch how you come to just about everyone of my threads and bash me on a off beat subject…


If Benny has a problem with what was posted Benny can come back on and tell us more about what he hasnt learned without you helping him.

I see you’ve already learned things form my posting Liddel, while condemning my facts and re-writing them as your own… I know; chill out, so you can bash me some more…

Talk about your Sybil, You're just a troll (http://detroitwingchun.com/thetroll.htm)...


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

Grey - fair enough man. Im only refering to the muscle use discusion on which im in agreement with Benny. two wrongs dont make a right though.
My bad.


Your way off and dont have a clue, Liddel...
‘Leung Sheung’ Yip Man’s first Hong Kong student was also there with ‘Yip Man’ to the end, Chris…

oh boy.

I only posted what i did because Joy mentioned the person had started two years after WSL which LS did not, he was before..... do you disagree ?

Im open to your opinion, is that who Joy was talking about ?

I could be wrong as often happens :)

Stop taking things as personal attacks you'll get cancer.



Listen, you came as if you had no bad intention at least that is what you wrote (while telling me to chill out), but I’m sure you didn’t believe that yourself…

I have a differnt view point with regards to certain things but ive listened to your opinion as well. Im not out to argue. Its lost in translation....

Example -



Now you saying I don’t teach application in which are all over my website that proves that I do… You just turned on me for no reason and after reinsuring me of no harm, why do you do this?

Why ?
Chinesse whispers bro.
I never stated you dont teach application, i simply stated -


They (being Sifu Lams students) show that they have actual application rather than putting up 1000 clips of forms and training

But instead thats how you have recieved my comment. Nothing i can do.



While trying to bash everything that I do or say, all one has to do is go back through the forum, and watch how you come to everyone of my threads and bash me on a off beat subject…

What do you mean by offbeat subject :rolleyes: ? i think it was good.
IMO the LDB is being lost throughout the world the more people doing it and talking about it the better.

On the bashing...
I havent bashed you bro. I originally said FOR ME in freaking bold LOL that the thrust in the form is about power generation.

You took it as me saying you have no power... What the hell bro ? LOL


P.S you have awesome taste in music in your clips.... Jimi is the man.
Lets just agree to disagree ok.

Yeah im bashing the hell out of you eh Ali ?

Can we move on ?

Did you read my post about the Dan Kwan drills etc that Kev and i discussed...
thoughts ?

Feel free to disagree or shed some insight - i asked the question for opinions either way. :p

and bro please dont mis quote me (last quote/post 36) - its an open public forum if i agree or disagree with anyone im entitled to as are you. Ive never mis quoted anyone.

DREW

[Ali. R]

You're still a troll (http://detroitwingchun.com/thetroll.htm)...

No, this is what you said, and this is not half of your statement*…


They show that they have actual application rather than putting up 1000 clips of forms and training *with your own students :rolleyes: who could that be........LOL
DREW


Ali Rahim.

[Liddel]

My point still stands you may teach application like you say i ofer no opinion on that, but your posted clip here is only a form, just like the majority of VT clips on the net.

Again... i respect Sifu Bayer and Garys guys for actually posting application where you get a much better idea of actual skill. unlike alot of people.

End of. Dont read into it.

Stop playing the victim Ali ive read the threads on your site.

People in glass houses mate. :cool:


Did you read my post about the Dan Kwan drills etc that Kev and i discussed...
thoughts ?

Feel free to disagree or shed some insight - i asked the question for opinions either way.

DREW

[bennyvt]

Im sorry I asked questions about a clip that was posted for all to see. If you dont want people to ask questions and not like the answers then you shouldnt post the clips.I made it very clear that I dont know the form. I thought this would show that I am not trying to say I know every thing, just asking questions about a topic I know only a little about. This now turns into if you dont know it all you dont know ****. Very intelligent argument. You also mention nothing about your so called not using muscle in your reply to my post which was the main thing. Is this because you cant explain it without reverting into chinese sayings. We both speak english, explain how you pick up and move the pole without muscles. I would be interested.Grey chaun, This started about Yip man and turned into Ali.R saying that he uses no muscle to use the pole. Yes I asked about things I preceived as wrong with what he is doing. I have meet heaps of people that have been doing the pole for yearsd this does not mean they have a clue ( not talking about Ali. R so dont start again.). When I read my post it seems that most of it is about the muscle contraction and some things I know about the pole that have been contradicted by others. If the forum is not to ask about our differences then is pretty useless being on it.
And yes I do take the muscle conrtaction issue seriuosly, this is an established fact that is taught to doctors and medical professions alike. I had this same problem about five or six years ago on this very forum and its the same thing. I make a coment about factual science and the other person explains in chinese sayings. If we are not going to be scientific about how our bodies work, just use things people thought hundreds of years ago, then we may as well not go to school.
Ali. R, I dont care what you think of me, if you are talking about my knowledge of the pole then yes it is limited. If you then turn it into well I dont know anything then you are very arogant and close minded. I thought it would be better to explain that I dont know it all then say that I do and show that you dont.

[couch]

Ive seen a nice clip of Gary Lams guys doing similar stuff, its a lot of the old school type training where you utilise things around you that are free. :p
DREW

My Escrimador instructor told me to hang a rope with two sticks balanced in the middle. One about head height, the other about waist height. He said when you hit one, both will spin and try and hit you.

Also said to go down the Army and Navy surplus here and get some REAL thick ship rope and hang that to hit. He says it's like a heavy-bag but you don't have to beat your heavy bag all to h3ll. Only had a few lessons with him so far so I have yet to set this up..but when he told me about it I commented the branches hangin from trees at Gary's!

Free is GOOD! ;)

Best,
Kenton

[couch]

I’m no victim and will never be one, and you keep saying let's move on, but keep throwing your shots out there...

No one on this forum will deny the fact that you are not trolling, and I’ve notice that you didn’t commit on the fact that you said that “I don’t teach applications”, when you know that I do, making a shot out of a bald face lie…

And you mean no harm; another bald face lie…

He don’t won’t me to read into a post, but happily hide half of his post while trying to make point… You need to be in politics…

You're still a troll (http://detroitwingchun.com/thetroll.htm)...


Ali Rahim.

Stop trying to call him out. You keep trying to antagonize him into arguing with you and he's not going to stoop to your level. Name calling (ie: troll) doesn't do anything for anybody. Everyone here knows how to have a conversation without calling names. Either you agree or disagree, but if it isn't for you, you don't have to respond.

Liddel is far from a troll. And please show respect to all lineages and practitioners.

Off my soap box now,
Kenton

[Mr Punch]

Some interesting stuff on this thread.

Benny, don't get too hung up on the 'not using muscle' thing. I don't think Ali means he uses no muscle at all: of course you need muscle to even just stand up... it's a common figure of speech in CMA and JMA. Of course, I'm not trying to put words in his mouth but he seems to have got sidetracked.


Talking about reach in the video you seem to be leaning when you do the thrusts. I always thought that the idea was to step with the strike but not to lose your structure as the pole is a heavy weapon meaning you could strain your back bending forward with it...


Hey,Liddel...if you actually read this post again you will see about 20-25 lines of CRITICISM about a person who has the pole and has had it for quite some time FROM someone who doesnt even have the form but has only seen it by others. Then only 3 lines at the very end letting us all know that he doesnt even have the form. Gray, mate, I think you're overreacting here. I saw the 5 lines above as asking questions because Ali's style varies from that which he's seen. I don't even see it as a criticism - looks just like questions to me.

The rest of it is just talking about how the people he's seen and talked to do it... again, where's the criticism? :confused:

And sure he only states at the end he doesn't know the form. How many times and in how many lines do you want him to state it?! ;) He was perfectly honest about it.


See your just like the other guy, saying too the world that you don’t want or have a problem with me and in the same breath you talk smack once again…

Yes, you don’t know the pole and that’s for sure, so why debate against me if you don’t know it?

At the bottom of your post there use to be a signature that said “Moy Yat Martial Intelligent” (ssssssssh*t), that you so promptly took off, I guess you've seen the light… He came back, apologised, and (possibly a little hurt) wondered why you were attacking him, and you tell him he's a troll and attack him and his line. He's still asking you questions - why do YOU see only hate? What's hateful about questions into another lineage?! I don't get you, man. Are you gonna call me a hater too if I ask you to chill and get back on subject?!

[Liddel]

Heres some clips ive found on youtube, some interesting differences in approach. Similarities are there to though.

Note - One of the clips is weng chun and has more body movement than traditional VT LDB. Its more spear like in terms of what Ali has previously mentioned about the LDB, you can clearly see the lead hand meets the foward hand when thrust foward, very spear like.

And one clip in there that has some nice arrow horse, its very low which is just how i was taught. Its a lot harder than it looks IMO ;)

Kenton - The old B & W clip has a home made dummy type setup check it out.

Oh and some Dan Kwan action too. Note the hands are exremely close. My hands are close but not that close:rolleyes: interesting -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfOlCyNbdr8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d15nTAnii_U&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfHorRXqtyY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTURlly2t-8

Has anyone got any clips of more Chi Kwan type stuff like Sifu Bayers clip that K provided...?

Id like to see some more action....anyway enjoy.

DREW

[anerlich]

Do you use a pole with equal width at both ends, or is your pole tappered, and what do you see as the difference between the two good or bad or not at all ?

The traditional TWC pole is tapered with a brass ferrule at the business (pointy) end.

I'll practise with anything that's around, rakes brooms unbrellas whatever. I use a 7' straight staff at hime, my courtyard's a bit small for one of those 9' monsters plus they're a bit difficult to put in the car, or take on a bike or public transport. If I want to work strength I'll use a short barbell bar without discs. It should work with anything from 3 to 13 feet according to TWC lore, so there's a fairly large margin there.


No one on this forum will deny the fact that you are not trolling

LOL, that's a triple negative (or is it quadruple)? I'm not sure what it means either but probably not what was intended :p

I don't think you were trolling so I'll "deny the fact that you were not trolling" ... Um ... :confused:

[Mr Punch]

No one on this forum will deny the fact that you are not trolling Allow me to step in as senior grammatician!

This means that everybody is sure that he is not a troll.


LOL, that's a triple negative (or is it quadruple)? ... I don't think you were trolling so I'll "deny the fact that you were not trolling" ... Um ... :confused:It's not in fact even a double negative, technically. Negatives in the sense of double negatives only apply directly to the verb. The 'No-one' is the subject and while 'deny' has a negative meaning, it is not in negative agreement.

Incidentally (since I have asked people to stay on subject!) I think there are more practical things to apply to empty hand by learning the pole than there are to apply to shorter pole-like objects like umbrellas, rattan sticks, bokuto or bo. My way of using a Japanese straight bo, even at six foot plus is very different to how to use a pole in terms of energies.

There is a bigger crossover IMO, between the aspects of stick arts where you are disarming people or trying to knock them over than when you are trying to hit them. The springy transfer of energy you go for with the wc pole is similar to that of a projection/throw in aiki-based koryu, rather than a jojutsu dripping deflection and hit for example.

[anerlich]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunno - can't find it
No one on this forum will deny the fact that you are not trolling

Allow me to step in as senior grammatician!

This means that everybody is sure that he is not a troll.


I bow to your command of grammar, though I think you fall slightly short as regards meaning.

It doesn't mean everyone is sure he is not a troll. It means no one is prepared to argue that he is a troll (leaving aside the, er, fact that you can't argue for or against facts, only statements).

They may believe he IS trolling, but are not prepared to say so. Perhaps out of good manners? ... probably not a concern on this forum :p

Suffice to say this was not the best way to express what we THINK was meant.

On topic: I practice La Canne, and I'd probably use those techniques with an umbrella sized weapon. I've only seen bits of the French Grande Baton (sp?) but it also appears to have some good stuff involved from sparring footage I've seen.

[Mr Punch]

'the fact that you are not trolling' - therefore it is a fact that this person is not a troll

'no one on this forum will deny' - to deny that fact in this case but be to claim that the person is a troll.

If no one will deny that it means it must certainly be true!

The way that this statement specifically expresses that it is a 'fact' that the person is not a troll, means that people do in fact believe this, and their lack of denial is quid pro quo of their concordant beliefs: i.e. no-one even secretly believes that this person is a troll either.

;)

Are you saying you apply WC to la Canne? Any chance of a brief example, of what you mean (and thanks btw for your excellent description of the clinch thing on the other thread)? I'd love to do some more western stuff, but there isn't so much la Canne in Tokyo, I guess.

[anerlich]

To buy your argument, which otherwise is excellent, I have to accept the statement:

You [Liddell] are not trolling

is in fact a fact, and not an opinion, and everyone else on the forum agrees.

Anyway, I don't want to sound pedantic :D , so let's respect each other's minor differences of opinion.

I don't try to do WC with la canne. I try (try being the operative word) to do la canne.

http://www.savateaustralia.com/ has some excellent savate resources, including la canne articles and videos for sale.

[LoneTiger108]

From my personal research over the years, I know who definately learned the pole form from Yip Man:

Wong Shun Leung
Hawkins Cheung
Moy Yat
Lo Man Kam
Leung Ting
Lok Yiu
Tsui Sheung Tien
Yip Ching
Ho Luen

This list is by no means exhaustive, but I have seen the sets of these men and I know the set and its trademark moves with minor varaitions. Lok Yiu had one of the finest standards in the pole in Yip Man WCK. In fact, in his article way back in the HK publication, Sun Mo Hop, in the 1970's, he listed the entire set out.

All these men and their followers pass down the pole almost identical. The basic training is more or less the same, as is the set. And to top it off, their pole set coincides with the YKS/Sum Nung WCK 6.5 point pole pattern.

Some of Yip Man's people learned through demonstration of chopsticks at the dim sum table. Others have added their signature moves and variation. Many are lacking in real pole skill.

The grip is the width of the 2 hands at side of the body in SNT. The thrust is from armpit. The Sou Gwun and Dang Tiu Gwun are signature moves.

Yip Man often gave his students a choice to ether learn the pole set or knife set. Rarely did he teach both to any person. Some he taught the pole moves individually (as points) to, but no set.

When you've been around as long as I have you know what is really taught by Yip Man, and what is not.

Best regards,

I find this topic very interesting, and have to say that I believe that the pole form has been altered so much since its early beginnings that it has become almost unrecognisable as a 'Shaolin' Form.

Space is always an obstacle and from what little I do know I can see that its obviously been slimmed down to basic hand/arm combos (mainly using side body alignment) which I would think was a minimum understanding to pass on.

As for the original form?? Who knows?

I like the fact that Chu Sifu recognizes Lok Yiu as having a decent form, something I've heard before, and considering our form in the Lee Shing Family may originate from here it's nice to hear. Although nobody can be certain as I also hear that Ng Jung So's pole was unique.

What IS obvious is that we may have lost this form due to our own stupidity. I remember days when people just threw it out of their curriculum because they had no use for it!

I could never do this, and I treasure the form I hold dearly.

Who introduced the form to the system/style anyway? I've heard many stories about that too, but none that make more sense than the one I was told by my Sifu.

It did not originate from the source many say, unless he was known by 'another name'...

[Liddel]

You [Liddell] are not trolling
is in fact a fact, and not an opinion, and everyone else on the forum agrees

You guys crack me up.


from what little I do know I can see that its obviously been slimmed down to basic hand/arm combos (mainly using side body alignment) which I would think was a minimum understanding to pass on

Slimming down is very VT isnt it Spencer. LOL

It may come down to preference also spence, i know when i asked about the facing my Sifu mentioned the common idea around it, as taught to him by Sifu Lok.

He mentioned the mindset was - when you fight with the BJD, often just like a knife fight you may get cut or even stuck but in the heat of the moment you can still carry on for the duration of it...its fast and furious.

However with the pole it was known that one stike and you could be down and out. The pole was seen as being very powerful.

So the side facing (for them) was about turning you vital organs away and making less of a target. Another thing he touched on was being in a (for lack of a better word) c o c ked position.

Alot of the power comes from body movement so being side on had you ready to issue power with the pole. In H2H a cross takes longer due to distance traveled but due to the length of the pole this could be negated.

Hence (for me at least) foward facing is done when an opponent gets passed the pole and comes closer, this is when youd use the opposite end of the Kwan.

May not be tha same for everyone but thats my experience.


What IS obvious is that we may have lost this form due to our own stupidity. I remember days when people just threw it out of their curriculum because they had no use for it!

Its indeed being lost IMO. And even though its still alive and well in its different forms etc. I think because of the hardship and time it takes to reach high levels with it... the standard is not as high as it once was.

I spent a few months on the arrow horse before Sifu even let me hold the pole. :o
It took me six months on Dan Kwan practicing power and making the tip move enough to satisfy him before learning the form. :o ....and its easy compared with when he learnt LOL.

You see why though once your over the hump and get to Chi Kwan etc.

Too bad i had to give it up :(. Im better and know more about the BJD now.

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

Slimming down is very VT isnt it Spencer. LOL

Seems so Drew. VT that is, not so much the Wing Chun I know.


It may come down to preference also spence, i know when i asked about the facing my Sifu mentioned the common idea around it, as taught to him by Sifu Lok.

He mentioned the mindset was - when you fight with the BJD, often just like a knife fight you may get cut or even stuck but in the heat of the moment you can still carry on for the duration of it...its fast and furious.

So the side facing (for them) was about turning you vital organs away and making less of a target. Another thing he touched on was being in a (for lack of a better word) c o c ked position.

I understand what you're saying here, exactly the same ideas here imo. BUT this is just the first dim we're talking about! What about the others?


Hence (for me at least) foward facing is done when an opponent gets passed the pole and comes closer, this is when youd use the opposite end of the Kwan.

And what dim is this in the form? The 'butt' of the pole isn't the only other contact area used at close range and it doesn't only get used when you're retreating or your defense is breached. I've tried to explain this before but still, who am I to say anything about the half-pole or other 'dims'?


Too bad i had to give it up :(. Im better and know more about the BJD now.

I dunno about ever giving up on the stick!! Choppers are cool, and each to their own but I say this: we have both for very good reasons. One should never be sacrificed over the other imo...

[Liddel]

Seems so Drew. VT that is, not so much the Wing Chun I know.

Mines very much about being effective though simplicity. :)
Are you saying you think yours in complicated ?



The 'butt' of the pole isn't the only other contact area used at close range and it doesn't only get used when you're retreating or your defense is breached.

It is for me but....

Why dont you touch on that a little more id like to hear your thoughts / experiences, what instances and what part of the pole can you employ at close range ?



I've tried to explain this before but still, who am I to say anything about the half-pole or other 'dims'?

What do you mean ? not following.... fire away thats what the forums about :)

Could it be the differnces in your LDB compared to the mojority out there ?
I know just from looking at your clips you have more infuences / actions in the pole...



I dunno about ever giving up on the stick!! Choppers are cool, and each to their own but I say this: we have both for very good reasons. One should never be sacrificed over the other imo...

Totally with you, although ive run out of people to Chi Kwan with and my Sifu has reached the point where its to hard for him. Hes has injuries from fights that are buggin him in his older age :o.
Hes sweet with the BJD and i like the fact he got the LDB from Sifu Lok and BJD from WSL. So im getting a little cross over between the two which came from people who can apply them are were known for having skills in each....

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

Mines very much about being effective though simplicity. :)
Are you saying you think yours in complicated ?

Hmm? No I don't think so! Complications arise only when you have no basics.


Why dont you touch on that a little more id like to hear your thoughts / experiences, what instances and what part of the pole can you employ at close range ?

If you have no half pole I can not help. Not a half point, as we never really refer to that. I mean 'quarter staff' methods. Little John stuff! :D


What do you mean ? not following.... fire away thats what the forums about :)

Could it be the differnces in your LDB compared to the mojority out there ?
I know just from looking at your clips you have more infuences / actions in the pole...

Drew, we have six points and a half pole. From what I see in others', they talk of six and a half points (most, if not all of which are applied in a side body platform - hence, similar to our first point) Common term is 'bui gwan'?

The Lee Shing Pole Form tends to cover lots of ground. We utilise the 'three' repeat method too. 3 hits to side, 3 hits to angle, 3 hits to front etc possibly where the label saam dim boon gwan (3 1/2 point pole) orginiates. But a term like 'bui gwan' can be used in ALL 6 point methods. Its very general. I've never heard anyone actually NAME the six points and heard more similar references in Doce Pares!! They are to me 'body structure' methods. But I use that term and look what happens?! I'm not a student of Chu Sifu!!

May seem like a silly question, but what terms do you use for the motions of your pole? Do you actually have a FORM utilising differnt body alignments/structures? Or do you just adjust the hands while set in a horse stance?

[k gledhill]

WSL

POLE TERMS

english pronunciation:
1. Fung Lung Cheung
2. Ping Cheung
3. Leung Jee
4. Lau Soi
5. Kam Quan
6. Dang Quan
1/2. Che Cheung

1. 'fong lung cheung' - "releasing the dragon spearing-action" - this refers to the thrusting/striking action in the form.

2. 'ping cheung' - "level spearing-action" - this refers to the pushing action of the form, similar to the 'Lan Sau' in the empty-hand forms.

3. 'leung yi' - "two moves" - this is the action that resembles the 'Jaat Sau' technique in the empty-hand forms. It is referred to as 'Leung Yi' because it enables us to defend and be placed in a position of attack within one action.

4. 'lau soi' - "moving/stirring the water" - the action that is the pole form's equivalent of the 'Bong Sau' action.

5. 'kam gwan' - "covering pole" - the action that follows 'Lau Soi' where the pole covers the opponent's weapon, knocking it downwards.

6. 'dang gwan' - "ascending pole" - this is the arcing/lifting action done at the start of the pole form, and again towards the end, a 'Laan Sau'-type motion that can be applied offensively or defensively.

0.5 'che cheung' - "descending spearing-action" - the backward/downward action at the very end of the pole form, used to intercept the opponent's weapon (or the opponent's legs) when the attack comes in on a low line from the rear of the stance.

[LoneTiger108]

WSL

POLE TERMS

english pronunciation:
1. Fung Lung Cheung
2. Ping Cheung
3. Leung Jee
4. Lau Soi
5. Kam Quan
6. Dang Quan
1/2. Che Cheung

All great imo Kev.

I can actually see why these terms are used and fit them into the Lee Shing form easily. Hard to imagine how these fit into some of the forms I've seen.

Not the terms I've heard exactly, but again they're familiar. I would have thought all terms would only be of one character, for one point each. We normally used the expression 'Dai Yat Dim' (First Point) Dai Yee Dim (Second point) etc as others were present throughout.

The list you've supplied is different I feel. More descriptive of certain methods. But are they THE six and half points?

These are online at wingchunkuen.com for Ip Man Pole:

Generic Terms
Biu (Dart)
Tan (Disperse)
Bong (Wing)
Fook (Control)
Jut (Choke)
Gaun (Cultivate)
Huen (Circle)

Conceptual Terms
Tai (Raise)
Lan (Bar)
Dim (Point)
Kit (Deflect)
Gwot (Cut)
Wun (Circle)
Lao (Receive)

All interesting to me...

[Paul T England]

Has anyone seriously tryed sparring with the long pole?

Also I was wondering if it could be done safely using Full Contact Escrima Armour?

I might try it next week.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[TenTigers]

we've sparred with different shinais cut to various lengths and escrima armor. Haven't tried it with the pole, but there should be a way. Perhaps if you could make an 8' shinai!

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgT_5iOIVFA

and....bit of everything ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph7-z6oe9Bg

all the mass of the pole + timed delivery with leg extension/arm etc... concentrated to a tip of a pole against your skin & bone ....not good = X

[SimonM]

I've done shinai sparring without padding... but even I'm not crazy enough to staff spar without serious protective gear.

[Liddel]

If you follow a good process from the form to Chi Kwan then to increased intensity sparring with the pole you dont need much padding....

For minimal protection i recommend a baseball catchers chest guard. Thin with good movement, you have to get the right side for you though depending on which side you hold the pole, cheaper than MA protection, at least where i live.

I got more bruises from sparring with the pole as a BJD user than i did with pole to pole training....although i did have to stop pole training and took up the BJD.

Perfecting actions like Gap Do can leave you with burns and bruises and very sore wrists LOL, no pain no gain IMO :p

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

Inspired by a thread about the Choy Lee Fut Pole Forms, I was wondering if anyone here has uploaded any clips of the Wing Chun Pole Form commonly known as the 6.5 Point Pole?

I've just added a clip on YouTube of an old performance of Jun Mo Wing Chun, which includes a clip of me demonstrating a version of the Jun Mo Pole

SENi 2001 - Directors Cut!
http://www.youtube.com/user/yumyeurng108#p/a/u/0/MH_5SS2BR-Y

I'd appreciate any constructive comments, questions and additions as I find that there are very few clips of our mysterious weaponry form out there on the world wide web.

[LoneTiger108]

Does anyone even practice a Wing Chun Pole Form here?

Maybe my name rings true, and I really am a LoneTiger! :(

[Phil Redmond]

Does anyone even practice a Wing Chun Pole Form here?

Maybe my name rings true, and I really am a LoneTiger! :(
I practice and teach the WC Dragon Pole (luhk dim bun kwan). ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Inspired by a thread about the Choy Lee Fut Pole Forms, I was wondering if anyone here has uploaded any clips of the Wing Chun Pole Form commonly known as the 6.5 Point Pole?

I've just added a clip on YouTube of an old performance of Jun Mo Wing Chun, which includes a clip of me demonstrating a version of the Jun Mo Pole

SENi 2001 - Directors Cut!
http://www.youtube.com/user/yumyeurng108#p/a/u/0/MH_5SS2BR-Y

I'd appreciate any constructive comments, questions and additions as I find that there are very few clips of our mysterious weaponry form out there on the world wide web.

Your PM inbox is full so I'll ask you here. What lineage of LDBK were you doing that in that clip?

[LoneTiger108]

Your PM inbox is full so I'll ask you here. What lineage of LDBK were you doing that in that clip?

It was far from the original set I learnt as more circular (flowery if you like!) movements were added for that particular performance.

As for lineage, our form is from Lee Shing. I noticed very early on in training that it is much longer than most Ip familys LDBK, which is explained by us using 7 sets; 6 points and a half pole set. It does cover more ground and is considered one of Lee Shings specialities.

From what I understand, Lee Shing was among Ip Mans 1950's students and also taught for him on HK Island for a while. When he came to the UK he was Ip Mans European representative and close friend to Ip Chun.


I practice and teach the WC Dragon Pole (luhk dim bun kwan).

What does your form look like? Any clips online?

[Phil Redmond]

It was far from the original set I learnt as more circular (flowery if you like!) movements were added for that particular performance.

As for lineage, our form is from Lee Shing. I noticed very early on in training that it is much longer than most Ip familys LDBK, which is explained by us using 7 sets; 6 points and a half pole set. It does cover more ground and is considered one of Lee Shings specialities.

From what I understand, Lee Shing was among Ip Mans 1950's students and also taught for him on HK Island for a while. When he came to the UK he was Ip Mans European representative and close friend to Ip Chun.



What does your form look like? Any clips online?
I have my of my student Sifu Ryan Kennedy from Toronto doing the form that I'm going to put on my website soon.

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc

...The pole form... The Late GM WSL




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgT_5iOIVFA

....the pole in action.... one strike is all it takes. :D very accurate for such a long weapon

you can 'tag' inch size 'x' on a board over 9ft away ...

[LoneTiger108]

I have my of my student Sifu Ryan Kennedy from Toronto doing the form that I'm going to put on my website soon.

That will be good to see Phil.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc

...The pole form... The Late GM WSL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgT_5iOIVFA

....the pole in action.... one strike is all it takes. very accurate for such a long weapon

you can 'tag' inch size 'x' on a board over 9ft away ...

Great clips too Kev.

Are there any more of WSL that highlight more of the 'form', or is that what you refer to as the pole form? IMHO it does seem very incomplete.

[chusauli]

That will be good to see Phil.



Great clips too Kev.

Are there any more of WSL that highlight more of the 'form', or is that what you refer to as the pole form? IMHO it does seem very incomplete.

Spencer,

WSL's footage is the complete set. It is pretty much typical of Yip Man's teaching...perhaps because Lee Shing added so much from other systems, it seems to you it is rather incomplete, but in WCK less is more. WSL Si Bok is demonstrating all the salient points of the WCK pole...

These points come from the keywords Tai, Lan, Dim, Kit, Got, Wun, Lou.

Tsui Sheung Tien's lineage shows the same points, so it is Lee Shing who changed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJJAhq4DfGc

Further extrapolated and permutated, these movements can be expanded into over 108 moves (216 if you do it on both sides). In WCK, it is not the sequence of the form that counts, it is the application and extrapolation of the skills and the correct power and timing of the movement in spontaneous application which is of primary importance. To be attached to the forms becomes meaningless.

If you ever look at Augustine Fong's set, which he created after study with Ho Kam Ming and others, you can see a lot of this extrapolation based on the main points. In Foshan WCK (of Lun Kai), it is still the same:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GLue5dZZIk

Countless forms can be made with the core essence.

IMO, many of the movements in your sets are added for flash and violate WCK's pole principles. The flowers are not good WCK, IMO.

[k gledhill]

What Robert said... :D many add things for , fancy empty action, impressing the audience...

thats the form....simple.

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,

WSL's footage is the complete set. It is pretty much typical of Yip Man's teaching...perhaps because Lee Shing added so much from other systems, it seems to you it is rather incomplete, but in WCK less is more. WSL Si Bok is demonstrating all the salient points of the WCK pole...

These points come from the keywords Tai, Lan, Dim, Kit, Got, Wun, Lou.

Tsui Sheung Tien's lineage shows the same points, so it is Lee Shing who changed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJJAhq4DfGc .

I can see your stand point here Robert, but it's clear to me from the clips what WSL, CST and the Foshan guys are doing.

As far as I'm aware Lee Shing added nothing to his pole form, it isn't his creation, it was Ip Man that may have stripped it down to teach.

What I commonly see is what is clearly represented in your clips, a 'set'. Our 1st point is almost exactly the same and we call it 'Dai Yat Dim'! Concentrating on the side body use of the pole, the longest reach, all the elements you mention are there when you break the posture down and drill each one to attack with the 1st point (as in your clips). We sometimes referred to that end-posture as 'cheurng gwun'.


... IMO, many of the movements in your sets are added for flash and violate WCK's pole principles. The flowers are not good WCK, IMO

I understand this view point too, and agree. I did mention that this form was changed for the show, and yes it looks more flowery than what Lee Shing looked like. This can be explained because I was young and inexperienced!


... In WCK, it is not the sequence of the form that counts, it is the application and extrapolation of the skills and the correct power and timing of the movement in spontaneous application which is of primary importance. To be attached to the forms becomes meaningless.

I have to disagree. The sequence from 1st to 6th point is as important as learning the sets to SLT in the correct order. They all have distinct purpose.

A main difference too is our explanation of the boon gwun (1/2 pole) but if what you see is already not what you think it should be because of your influences and learning, then you must already know everything you need to know.

Whatever I say can make no difference.

[k gledhill]

Spencer go meet Desmond..actions speak louder than You-tubes...
the way you talk about the forms shows a shallow understanding....

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer go meet Desmond..actions speak louder than You-tubes...
the way you talk about the forms shows a shallow understanding....

Thanks again Kev for the recommendation! I'm sure we will meet at some point, and he's always welcome to seek me out if he really wants to. I have nothing to prove to anyone, so I find it funny that you keep pimping out Des! :D

Have you no other writings or advice for people wishing to practice the pole form, or better still a clip of yourself actually doing your pole form?

This thread was meant to start a discussion, so please explain why you think my post shows a shallow understanding?

[Vajramusti]

I don't know where to begin. The pole demo that I saw on the link that you provided- I can't relate to it from a martial standpoint. The way some of the demo participants were holding their poles-
the poles can be knocked out of their hands IMO.

joy chaudhuri.

[k gledhill]

Thanks again Kev for the recommendation! I'm sure we will meet at some point, and he's always welcome to seek me out if he really wants to. I have nothing to prove to anyone, so I find it funny that you keep pimping out Des! :D

Have you no other writings or advice for people wishing to practice the pole form, or better still a clip of yourself actually doing your pole form?

This thread was meant to start a discussion, so please explain why you think my post shows a shallow understanding?


your hiding in a well ...escape from the circle of training you see above you, peek over the edge...you just might not want to stay in the well....your understanding will reveal itself only to you.

[LoneTiger108]

I don't know where to begin. The pole demo that I saw on the link that you provided- I can't relate to it from a martial standpoint. The way some of the demo participants were holding their poles-
the poles can be knocked out of their hands IMO.

joy chaudhuri.

Thanks for the critique Joy, at least you have a point. I can't defend the 'nerves' of fellow performers as some were only 6 months in and very frightened.


your hiding in a well ...escape from the circle of training you see above you, peek over the edge...you just might not want to stay in the well....your understanding will reveal itself only to you.

I didn't think you would have anything more constructive to say :rolleyes:

FWIW I haven't been training in this 'circle' you mention for quite some time, and I do have my own opinions and way to train that is distinct from my Sifu and peers.

I wouldn't do a performance like that anymore. But I also do understand the reasons why that was done at the time. And that it what I was trying to share with people here.

I'm still waiting to see more clips of other peoples pole form...

[LoneTiger108]

Same family, different interpretation! This is more like Lee Shings version than what I performed by far...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExClVQ7CdVs

[Matrix]

I have to disagree. The sequence from 1st to 6th point is as important as learning the sets to SLT in the correct order. They all have distinct purpose.Purpose and order are not mutually dependant. You could change the order and retain purpose. Conversely you can also maintain the order and totally lose the purpose.
When you begin the training the order is required. Once "learned" you can take the training wheels off and let the actions flow naturally in response to the situation. Play the form, don't let the form play you.

Cheers,
Bill

[CFT]

A shame we have got personal with the thread. I would have been interested to quiz Spencer a bit further on the terminology in the LSWCK pole set. Sounds like they have a whole different classification system for the 6 + 1/2 points.

[Vajramusti]

Ip man had some key drills with the kwan...lots of details involved. He didnt seem to have a full "form". Ho Kam Ming knows Ip man's pole work and taught it to his best students. My sifu Augustine Fong coordinated those drills into a form.. helps with remembering and flowing with the motions..Upto now Sifu Fong has not really used You tube. His instruction is basically at his Tucson,Arizona school.

I just work on the drills and sometimes sparring with the poles.Pole work is great for coordinating both hands with the structure and dynamics and footwork IMO.Great for development- not for walking down main street past local police with a 8 foot pole.<g>

Ip Man's biu kwan just a few days before his death used yo be on the internet. I could not find it today.If you know what to look for his biu kwan even when just before his death can be instructive.

Ip Man did some instruction for the HK police..one of his students filmed it- Leung Ting(naturally)
bought it from the student. he will probably do something profitable with the films sometime.

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

Spencer,

This might be more your speed. They say WCK, but it seems more like a Siu Lam 6.5 pole. Notice some of the flowery motions. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivcN7OgqASE

Spencer, please know I am not ridiculing you or putting your lineage down in anyway. I believe Lee Shing created his set more for demonstration. And that's fine. There are many 6.5 point pole sets in China from different lineages, and systems. I think you should look up Southern pole work in general. Check out Choy Mok's pole:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNNDIJdPBJI&feature=related

Food for thought - almost all Southern pole sets have the same ideas.


Joy,

I think you mean this, with Yip Man (helps with Chinese characters):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ove9l1LU0g&feature=related

[chusauli]

Having seen Leung Ting's 6.5 point pole set, I would say its very much the same as WSL's or Chu Shang Tin's set. He does use a different set of 6.5 keywords:
Cheung, Kam, Tiu, But, Chou, Tan, Boon Jie...

William Cheung's stands out as a unique set, but the grip is so wide and shows an inherent danger. I would say Cheung Sifu's knives are better than his pole.

[Vajramusti]

Robert-Thanks... yes that's the one. He is weak and old at that stage- but still gives us an idea- simple and not flowery.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

A shame we have got personal with the thread. I would have been interested to quiz Spencer a bit further on the terminology in the LSWCK pole set. Sounds like they have a whole different classification system for the 6 + 1/2 points.

Not to worry! :D I'm learning to just get on with it and try the best I can to communicate here. Any questions would be welcome as I too believe you're right, we do seem to 'classify' the pole form differently. It's Six Point & Half Pole to me :D


Ip man had some key drills with the kwan...lots of details involved. He didnt seem to have a full "form".

That's interesting to hear Joy. Having only key drills may be linked to the development of the pole on the boats, and the space restriction placed on the practitioners of the time. So Ip Man may have only received a shorter version, and didn't condense it as I thought he may have.

Which brings me to question why Lee Shings form was longer? Could it be as simple as it originating from a source before the red boat era? This does link with what I've heard.


Spencer, please know I am not ridiculing you or putting your lineage down in anyway. I believe Lee Shing created his set more for demonstration. And that's fine.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Believe me, I try not to take it personally. ;)

But this isn't correct according to my understanding. Lee Shing didn't 'create' his pole form (as far as I know!) he just taught it how he was taught it. It was my Sifu who allowed us to 'play' with the form a little for performances.

[Vajramusti]

So Ip Man may have only received a shorter version, and didn't condense it as I thought he may have.(Spencer D)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are entitled to your speculation. FWIW- I think that Ip Man's pole work has lots of details-that appear to be missing in much pole work. But if yours works for you- I have no problem.
Prefer not to clutter threads with argumentations.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

You are entitled to your speculation. FWIW- I think that Ip Man's pole work has lots of details-that appear to be missing in much pole work. But if yours works for you- I have no problem.
Prefer not to clutter threads with argumentations.

You're right Joy, it is just my speculation that's all.

On the Ip Man pole work, I too know it has lots of finer details as we do cover them but maybe not in exactly the same manner as you (or others). What I'm suggetsting is that everything I have seen from Ip family is based around our 1st point. What I'm looking for are people with actual experience of the other 5 points and half pole techniques.

Even the clips Robert provided were interesting, as I have drilled similar things too, ALL linked to our pole form. Very simple stuff IMHO.

I'm sure if you view the inconsistances of my 'mediocre' demo as inexperience, you will understand that before all that 'flowery' stuff there was an original form which I have yet to film/talk about. An original form I still practise and refine.

[CFT]

On the Ip Man pole work, I too know it has lots of finer details as we do cover them but maybe not in exactly the same manner as you (or others). What I'm suggetsting is that everything I have seen from Ip family is based around our 1st point. What I'm looking for are people with actual experience of the other 5 points and half pole techniques.I seem to remember something you wrote a while ago about the 1/2 point. The LSWCK 1/2 point was using both ends of the staff/pole; think I've seen Austin Goh sifu demonstrate this on a video.

So if what is publicly available on the YMWCK pole is just the 1st point in the LSWCK system, then what "concept" do you train in your other 5 points, and how do you train it? Forms/drills?

[LoneTiger108]

I seem to remember something you wrote a while ago about the 1/2 point. The LSWCK 1/2 point was using both ends of the staff/pole; think I've seen Austin Goh sifu demonstrate this on a video.

Yes that's true, although I have to point out that I never refer to the 1/2 as a 'point' as it's just the 1/2 pole. Quarter staff to Robin Hood fans!

And yes, Austin Goh includes it in his form on Youtube I posted earlier. I've also seen a mainland lineage perform the half pole set on its own as a form, very like how we practised!


So if what is publicly available on the YMWCK pole is just the 1st point in the LSWCK system, then what "concept" do you train in your other 5 points, and how do you train it? Forms/drills?

Theres that word, concept?! Look at what I wrote again, as I'm not trying to suggest that Ip family pole is just our first point, as ours is much simpler. The concept behind our 1st point is cheurng dim (spear point) from what I remember (and I could be wrong!)

All the details Joys mentioned, the terms Robert used, are drilled in our first point but they originate from our other 5 points. This is what I meant by condensing down the form. All these terms can also be used within each point posture, they just change the approach.

Somehow, however it happened, what I generally see today is some major concepts of our form represented in Ip family pole accumulated in one point (or used for one purpose commonly called Biu Gwun)

As far as drilling is concerned, I treated the pole form no differently than my hand forms. Each set dissected and analyzed to be drilled solo, onto equipment, in pairs and in teams.

[CFT]

Could you spell out what you drill in each point, or is that asking too much? When Robert says the YM pole forms drill the concepts ABCDE ... I can see what he is saying.

When you say your 1st point drills all those too because they drill stuff from the other 5, I'm at a loss. Those 5 points can't be redundant can they?

[chusauli]

Personally, I feel the name "Luk Dim Boon Gwun" is misleading.

Everyone is always wondering what the half point is.

Some consider it the thrust, others consider it the butt. IMO, I consider it the circular movement, as that prevails in all movements.

The swinging that Master Goh is doing is alien to me and looks more like some southern Cern Tou Gwun (Double Head Staff) movements. It is more reminicent of the Hang Jie Pang (Traveller's Pole/Waddy) - aka Monkey Staff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oAQVR8g0is

BTW, this is Hung Ga's 6.5 point staff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OCeghHm8Js

In Southern Fist, we also regard the Hung Fut Left Hand Mad Demon pole as a great set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOQ5cX993-U

As you can see, the functional moves are all there as in WCK's pole.

[chusauli]

Since the single head staff came from the spear, I thought some of you would want to see the spear. Since I studied Hung Gar, Lama and a smattering of CLF, I can offer you some insights. Spear uses the key words Lan (Obstruct), Na (Control) and Zha (Stabbing). Most of the emphasis is on power and travel of that focus through the spear. What the WCK people were lacking big time was this power. This is a good example of the relaxed power of the spear or staff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0pb9AsW8b4&feature=related

Here are some famous spear sets -

CLF left right 13 spear Spear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPUInM5c5vU&feature=related

Hung Ga Yang Family Spear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE0ccB1DLwQ


Tai Ji Spear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7-TCotquKU&feature=related

Northern Spears are better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i04tulv2p4Q&feature=related

This is how Ba Ji's 6 harmony spear is trained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5OsHKBc5SA&feature=related

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyByHrSDsgM&feature=related

WCK brothers - step up to the plate! Your 6.5 staff is at the 6:30 position and needs some viagra! LOL! :)

[t_niehoff]

Since the single head staff came from the spear . . .

Yeah, that's what they say, but I don't believe it.

[chusauli]

The legends are the single head staff is a spear without the point and the tactics resemble the spear. Tan Gwun is equal to the Lan of the spear, Fuk is equal to the Na of the spear and Biu Gwun is equivalent to the Zha of the spear.

The spear is mostly a Northern weapon and used with the left hand facing forward. Of course, WCK is a civilian art, developed by Southern folk, and the pole is right hand facing forward. I am in no way suggesting WCK was a battlefield martial art, nor comes from temples.

Somehow, the spear was adapted in staff work. In military martial arts, there needed to be battle formations and keeping in line. The civilian spear/staff is not as orderly, and is given to flowery displays.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . .I have to disagree. The sequence from 1st to 6th point is as important as learning the sets to SLT in the correct order. They all have distinct purpose. . . . .

I respectfully have to disagree. The "sets" can be done in any order. In fact sets in any form should be practiced separately over and over. And what about Gu Lo Wing Chun which doesn't have forms?

[Phil Redmond]

Having seen Leung Ting's 6.5 point pole set, I would say its very much the same as WSL's or Chu Shang Tin's set. He does use a different set of 6.5 keywords:
Cheung, Kam, Tiu, But, Chou, Tan, Boon Jie...

William Cheung's stands out as a unique set, but the grip is so wide and shows an inherent danger. I would say Cheung Sifu's knives are better than his pole.
Have you seen the "real" set? ;) Your statement is based on very limited personal contact with Cheung Sifu. Your Chusauli Wing Chun could be the best of all. But I can't comment on it. How can I make a comment on something I have no inside knowledge of?
I've learned to not make blanket statements without inside knowledge, but that's just me.
Check your PM

[t_niehoff]

The legends are the single head staff is a spear without the point and the tactics resemble the spear. Tan Gwun is equal to the Lan of the spear, Fuk is equal to the Na of the spear and Biu Gwun is equivalent to the Zha of the spear.

The spear is mostly a Northern weapon and used with the left hand facing forward. Of course, WCK is a civilian art, developed by Southern folk, and the pole is right hand facing forward. I am in no way suggesting WCK was a battlefield martial art, nor comes from temples.

Somehow, the spear was adapted in staff work. In military martial arts, there needed to be battle formations and keeping in line. The civilian spear/staff is not as orderly, and is given to flowery displays.

Yes, I've heard that before, I just don't buy it. I think that perhaps some people took their spear traning and tried to adapt that to the pole, but the pole is a very different weapon than the spear and can't be successfully used like a spear.

The spear's sharp point is what makes the thrust with the spear its primary offensive action -- take away that sharpened point, and you have "defanged" the spear, rid it of most of its offensive potential. Also, the spear because it is a sharpened thrusting weapon (like the epee) uses little power and relies of quick stabs. So, if you use a pole/staff like a spear, you are only using a defanged spear and will have little power.

In my view, the major offensive actions with the pole don't involve thrusting the pole to strike with the "point" -- which is easily countered and not very effective.

[chusauli]

I respectfully have to disagree. The "sets" can be done in any order. In fact sets in any form should be practiced separately over and over. And what about Gu Lo Wing Chun which doesn't have forms?

When I learneed the Gu Lao pole as taught to me by my sifu, he basically had me learn all the points in a separate manner and then it was taught in combination. Much like how Escrima is taught. We didn't have set motions.

[m1k3]

example of US Army short pole training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopvQTbOOxQ

:)

[chusauli]

Have you seen the "real" set? ;) Your statement is based on very limited personal contact with Cheung Sifu. Your Chusauli Wing Chun could be the best of all. But I can't comment on it. How can I make a comment on something I have no inside knowledge of?
I've learned to not make blanket statements without inside knowledge, but that's just me.
Check your PM

I don't know if I have seen any "real set"... I learned the pole set from Rick Spain, one of Cheung Sifu's top students in Australia. I'd say that was pretty real. The only minor criticism is that the space of the grip is too wide as seen in Cheung Sifu's Black Belt DVD and Ohara book. That's all and IMO, it can be easily modified, but I guess then it's be "modified TWC". :eek: I have no blanket statement, but if you are suggesting that TWC has some "reserved for indoor disciples version, and we taught it wrong on purpose..." I feel very sorry for the masses who have all the alleged "fake" stuff. I mean, how does it feel to study TWC for decades and now be told we learned outside BS? All the instructors but you and your partner have the real deal and we all learned public trash?

I don't think my WCK is best of all, its only best for me at this moment, now. I gave up all thoughts of superiority for reality. I always follow Hawkins' question to me, "Can you do it?" This of course, permutates into all facets of life and training, what all martial artists should do - Can I do this? Can I condition myself better? Can I be a better teacher? Can I articulate better? Can I improve? Its all a process of being a work in process, and the honest conversations you have with yourself.

BTW, I do not call my WCK "Chu Sau Lei WCK". My students or outsiders call it that. I just refer to it as WCK, taught in my curriculum, and using my teaching methodology. Its basically composed of Yip Man and Gu Lao WCK systems passed on from my instructors, taught through my teaching methodology and curriculum, and I allow my students to express their own style. The appellation is common in HK and China. I do not claim any unknown founders or trace my art to Shaolin or other secret factions, have fancy titles, claim enlightenment or be a living Buddha, lay claim to a secret battlefield art, or have any special tattoos or requirements to have tattoos, nor is there a "public" or "private" version. I'm just a martial artist sick of the BS in TCMA.

So Phil, is there a real TWC pole and we have all been fed BS?

[chusauli]

Yes, I've heard that before, I just don't buy it. I think that perhaps some people took their spear traning and tried to adapt that to the pole, but the pole is a very different weapon than the spear and can't be successfully used like a spear.

The spear's sharp point is what makes the thrust with the spear its primary offensive action -- take away that sharpened point, and you have "defanged" the spear, rid it of most of its offensive potential. Also, the spear because it is a sharpened thrusting weapon (like the epee) uses little power and relies of quick stabs. So, if you use a pole/staff like a spear, you are only using a defanged spear and will have little power.

In my view, the major offensive actions with the pole don't involve thrusting the pole to strike with the "point" -- which is easily countered and not very effective.


Those are some good observations. Yes, polework is modified and blunted spear work.

[ittokaos]

I don't know if I have seen any "real set"... I learned the pole set from Rick Spain, one of Cheung Sifu's top students in Australia. I'd say that was pretty real. The only minor criticism is that the space of the grip is too wide as seen in Cheung Sifu's Black Belt DVD and Ohara book. That's all and IMO, it can be easily modified, but I guess then it's be "modified TWC". :eek: I have no blanket statement, but if you are suggesting that TWC has some "reserved for indoor disciples version, and we taught it wrong on purpose..." I feel very sorry for the masses who have all the alleged "fake" stuff. I mean, how does it feel to study TWC for decades and now be told we learned outside BS? All the instructors but you and your partner have the real deal and we all learned public trash?

I don't think my WCK is best of all, its only best for me at this moment, now. I gave up all thoughts of superiority for reality. I always follow Hawkins' question to me, "Can you do it?" This of course, permutates into all facets of life and training, what all martial artists should do - Can I do this? Can I condition myself better? Can I be a better teacher? Can I articulate better? Can I improve? Its all a process of being a work in process, and the honest conversations you have with yourself.

BTW, I do not call my WCK "Chu Sau Lei WCK". My students or outsiders call it that. I just refer to it as WCK, taught in my curriculum, and using my teaching methodology. Its basically composed of Yip Man and Gu Lao WCK systems passed on from my instructors, taught through my teaching methodology and curriculum, and I allow my students to express their own style. The appellation is common in HK and China. I do not claim any unknown founders or trace my art to Shaolin or other secret factions, have fancy titles, claim enlightenment or be a living Buddha, lay claim to a secret battlefield art, or have any special tattoos or requirements to have tattoos, nor is there a "public" or "private" version. I'm just a martial artist sick of the BS in TCMA.

So Phil, is there a real TWC pole and we have all been fed BS?

Awesome. Thumbs up on that one Mr Chu.

[chusauli]

example of US Army short pole training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopvQTbOOxQ

:)

This one is pretty cool, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eI2Ef7sH8c&NR=1

Old time FMA guys used it during WWII...

[m1k3]

When I was in boot camp one of the drills we did was similar to a short form.

it was slash, stab, step forward with the back foot and do a butt stroke which is kind of like an uppercut using the butt of the rifle, a butt smash to the face followed by stepping forward whith the back foot and doing the slash and continue on.

Oohrah!

[m1k3]

O yeah, this will make t. happy, we also did live sparring using pugel sticks. One on One, two on one, two on two and armed against unarmed. This was one of the few parts of boot camp that was fun.

[t_niehoff]

Single-headed pole fighting starts at 2:17 into the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdhU3-6SNfs

The pole is the pole. You notice the pole isn't used like a blunted spear.

[t_niehoff]

When I was in boot camp one of the drills we did was similar to a short form.

it was slash, stab, step forward with the back foot and do a butt stroke which is kind of like an uppercut using the butt of the rifle, a butt smash to the face followed by stepping forward whith the back foot and doing the slash and continue on.

Oohrah!

Which makes sense since you are training for bayonette fighting.

[chusauli]

Looks like Tapado:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd_A6tDBIzg

[YungChun]

And you're equating that to the Gwan?

Do you think you could wield the Gwan like they do the "sticks" in the video?

Puleeeese..get real.

[Phil Redmond]

I don't know if I have seen any "real set"... I learned the pole set from Rick Spain, one of Cheung Sifu's top students in Australia. I'd say that was pretty real. The only minor criticism is that the space of the grip is too wide as seen in Cheung Sifu's Black Belt DVD and Ohara book. That's all and IMO, it can be easily modified, but I guess then it's be "modified TWC". :eek: I have no blanket statement, but if you are suggesting that TWC has some "reserved for indoor disciples version, and we taught it wrong on purpose..." I feel very sorry for the masses who have all the alleged "fake" stuff. I mean, how does it feel to study TWC for decades and now be told we learned outside BS? All the instructors but you and your partner have the real deal and we all learned public trash?

I don't think my WCK is best of all, its only best for me at this moment, now. I gave up all thoughts of superiority for reality. I always follow Hawkins' question to me, "Can you do it?" This of course, permutates into all facets of life and training, what all martial artists should do - Can I do this? Can I condition myself better? Can I be a better teacher? Can I articulate better? Can I improve? Its all a process of being a work in process, and the honest conversations you have with yourself.

BTW, I do not call my WCK "Chu Sau Lei WCK". My students or outsiders call it that. I just refer to it as WCK, taught in my curriculum, and using my teaching methodology. Its basically composed of Yip Man and Gu Lao WCK systems passed on from my instructors, taught through my teaching methodology and curriculum, and I allow my students to express their own style. The appellation is common in HK and China. I do not claim any unknown founders or trace my art to Shaolin or other secret factions, have fancy titles, claim enlightenment or be a living Buddha, lay claim to a secret battlefield art, or have any special tattoos or requirements to have tattoos, nor is there a "public" or "private" version. I'm just a martial artist sick of the BS in TCMA.

So Phil, is there a real TWC pole and we have all been fed BS?

Weak attempt at baiting. :rolleyes:
I never said that people were taught wrong. What I can say is that there is more.

[Phil Redmond]

When I was in boot camp one of the drills we did was similar to a short form.

it was slash, stab, step forward with the back foot and do a butt stroke which is kind of like an uppercut using the butt of the rifle, a butt smash to the face followed by stepping forward whith the back foot and doing the slash and continue on.

Oohrah!
I liked the horizontal butt stroke from boot camp.
Oorah

[t_niehoff]

Looks like Tapado:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd_A6tDBIzg

Yup. The pole is the pole. When people REALLLY fight with the pole, they figure out pretty quickly what works, what doesn't work, etc. and that is the same for everyone, across cultures, etc. In other words, to make the pole work we all must do the same fundamental things. It's only when theoreticians and nonfghters get into the act that things go awry and nonsense creeps in, then the nonsense gets ritualized, then become dogma, and so on.

[t_niehoff]

And you're equating that to the Gwan?

Do you think you could wield the Gwan like they do the "sticks" in the video?

Puleeeese..get real.

Let's see you go FIGHT, really FIGHT -- like at a Dog Brothers gathering --with the pole like you BELIEVE you can.

This is the root of the problem: people who aren't DOING it (successfully fighting with the pole), believing they know how to because they believe they "understand" the concepts, and they teach others their non-fighting with the pole, using unrealistic training which only reinforces their beliefs. The blind leading the blind.

Then when the see people really fight with the pole, and it doesn't "look" like their CONCEPTION (their imaginary polefighting), they say things like "get real".

Ironic, isn't it? People who never fight with the pole telling others to "get real".

[goju]

Let's see you go FIGHT, really FIGHT -- like at a Dog Brothers gathering --with the pole like you BELIEVE you can.

This is the root of the problem: people who aren't DOING it (successfully fighting with the pole), believing they know how to because they believe they "understand" the concepts, and they teach others their non-fighting with the pole, using unrealistic training which only reinforces their beliefs. The blind leading the blind.

Then when the see people really fight with the pole, and it doesn't "look" like their CONCEPTION (their imaginary polefighting), they say things like "get real".

Ironic, isn't it? People who never fight with the pole telling others to "get real".

yes why doesnt anybody there are plenty of pole fighting championships out there

:rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

yes why doesnt anybody there are plenty of pole fighting championships out there

:rolleyes:

So, you think that if there aren't organized "championships" that you can't do pole fighting?

And, I guess you think that you can learn how to really use (fight with) the pole by not fighting with the pole.

Or, that people with absolutley no experience fighting with the pole really "understand" it?

Gotcha.

[CFT]

Yup. The pole is the pole. When people REALLLY fight with the pole, they figure out pretty quickly what works, what doesn't work, etc. and that is the same for everyone, across cultures, etc. In other words, to make the pole work we all must do the same fundamental things. It's only when theoreticians and nonfghters get into the act that things go awry and nonsense creeps in, then the nonsense gets ritualized, then become dogma, and so on.Just interested in what you think these fundamental things are, because it sounds similar to the "technique vs. concept" argument.

Superficially it looks very different to WCK pole work because the weapon is a different weight and length. But (in the Tapado vid) there is an obvious "fencing" element to it which looked similar to what Philipp Bayer does in one of his pole drill videos - displacing the opponents weapon and fightling for the line.

[CFT]

The spear's sharp point is what makes the thrust with the spear its primary offensive action -- take away that sharpened point, and you have "defanged" the spear, rid it of most of its offensive potential. Also, the spear because it is a sharpened thrusting weapon (like the epee) uses little power and relies of quick stabs. So, if you use a pole/staff like a spear, you are only using a defanged spear and will have little power.OK, an armchair theorist's arguments:

The longer and heavier counters the nimble and deadly (because of the metal point) spear with range and momentum. The lighter spear is more easily displaced by the heavier pole.


In my view, the major offensive actions with the pole don't involve thrusting the pole to strike with the "point" -- which is easily countered and not very effective.Blunt force trauma is still trauma.

[goju]

So, you think that if there aren't organized "championships" that you can't do pole fighting?

And, I guess you think that you can learn how to really use (fight with) the pole by not fighting with the pole.

Or, that people with absolutley no experience fighting with the pole really "understand" it?

Gotcha.

yes there are not exacty venues for pole fighting (im sure this comes as quite a shock to you) and post people have never had to defend themselves with a staff either so your point is pretty much rediculous

but keep going your arm chair warrior diatribes are amusing to say the least:D

[CFT]

but keep going your arm chair warrior diatribes are amusing to say the least:DI think you've got the wrong person. I'M the armchair warrior!

[m1k3]

I could be all wrong but the WC pole methods in the form look to me like the way you would use a pike or a long heavy spear. The thrusting methods, the foot work and the 45 degree pivioting look like they were designed to be used in a formation by mutliple people trained to thrust pivot and step on command.

A good comparison would be to look at the baton and shield training of riot police who are trained to move in unison to back up and control crowds.

Just my 2 cents.

[t_niehoff]

OK, an armchair theorist's arguments:

The longer and heavier counters the nimble and deadly (because of the metal point) spear with range and momentum. The lighter spear is more easily displaced by the heavier pole.


Look at it this way, take two swords, a heavy dull one like a wooden bokken and light, sharp one, like a rapier. Does it make sense to use a bokken like a rapier? They are two very different weapons.



Blunt force trauma is still trauma.

If you had a bokken, would poking your opponent with the tip be your action of choice since "blunt force trauma is blunt force trauma" or would your offensive action of choice be to bring the body of the weapon down on his head?

[t_niehoff]

I could be all wrong but the WC pole methods in the form look to me like the way you would use a pike or a long heavy spear. The thrusting methods, the foot work and the 45 degree pivioting look like they were designed to be used in a formation by mutliple people trained to thrust pivot and step on command.

A good comparison would be to look at the baton and shield training of riot police who are trained to move in unison to back up and control crowds.

Just my 2 cents.

The pole form doesn't show you how to use the pole -- how the pole looks in pole fighting any more than the SNT shows you how WCK looks in fighting. All the form does is link the various yau dim (important points).

BTW, is this the sort of thing you are talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gaih-zJgFng

The problem is that people who can't fight with the pole INTERPRET the forms based on what they PRECONCEIVE pole fighting to be like.

[m1k3]

The pole form doesn't show you how to use the pole -- how the pole looks in pole fighting any more than the SNT shows you how WCK looks in fighting. All the form does is link the various yau dim (important points).

The problem is that people who can't fight with the pole INTERPRET the forms based on what they PRECONCEIVE pole fighting to be like.

Uhhh, no. That is not what I am saying at all. I have no idea what pole fighting should look like and to be honest don't really care.

What I am commenting on is the similarities of those movements to movements I have trained in while in the military. There are similarities to close order drill as it is currently trained, which is used to train coordinated movement in formation and bayonet training I received in using the rifle as a heavy but short pole like weapon (with or without the bayonet) and if you look at old military manuals how the bayonet was used when muskets were the primary weapon of the infantry.

As you so often point out effective training is effective training and the skills will look the same for techniques used in actual fighting no matter what the source.

[m1k3]

Actually I was thinking of this post and several others like it.

k gledhill
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 918

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc

[t_niehoff]

Uhhh, no. That is not what I am saying at all. I have no idea what pole fighting should look like and to be honest don't really care.

What I am commenting on is the similarities of those movements to movements I have trained in while in the military. There are similarities to close order drill as it is currently trained, which is used to train coordinated movement in formation and bayonet training I received in using the rifle as a heavy but short pole like weapon (with or without the bayonet) and if you look at old military manuals how the bayonet was used when muskets were the primary weapon of the infantry.

As you so often point out effective training is effective training and the skills will look the same for techniques used in actual fighting no matter what the source.

So you are saying that movements you see in the pole form are similar to movements you learned in the military for bayonette fighting?

OK.

I don't disagree at all.

My point is that while the movements are similar, how they are used will differ as the weapons differ. For example, you can strike with the wooden body of a spear (the movement) but that isn't your primary attack with the spear, whereas with a blunt pole, you can poke but that isn't your primary attack (since hitting with the body of the weapon is more effective). And, as your primary way of striking changes, so will how you set it up, etc. You may see the same movements, but not put together or emphasized the same way.

[t_niehoff]

Actually I was thinking of this post and several others like it.

k gledhill
Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 918

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc

Yup. That form contains the bare points but over-emphasizes the "linear aspects" (not surprising since Yip used to teach the pole points with chopsticks while at a restaurant!). Other WCK pole sets, like YKS or Gu Lao, seem to have retained more variety.

But this illustrates what I was trying to get at -- people see this form and think that it (the linear focus) somehow represents what fighting with a pole will be (mainly linear thrusts). But when we really see pole fighting, you don't see that emphasized.

[CFT]

Look at it this way, take two swords, a heavy dull one like a wooden bokken and light, sharp one, like a rapier. Does it make sense to use a bokken like a rapier? They are two very different weapons.



If you had a bokken, would poking your opponent with the tip be your action of choice since "blunt force trauma is blunt force trauma" or would your offensive action of choice be to bring the body of the weapon down on his head?I would say that the bokken is not heavy enough to "make up the difference". You have a "fixed quantity" in the amount of force the human body can take, so there is a lower limit to the mass of the blunt weapon you use.

I'm not saying blunt heavy weapons are as good as bladed weapons, I'm just disputing that they are not effective.

[m1k3]

Yup. That form contains the bare points but over-emphasizes the "linear aspects" (not surprising since Yip used to teach the pole points with chopsticks while at a restaurant!). Other WCK pole sets, like YKS or Gu Lao, seem to have retained more variety.

But this illustrates what I was trying to get at -- people see this form and think that it (the linear focus) somehow represents what fighting with a pole will be (mainly linear thrusts). But when we really see pole fighting, you don't see that emphasized.

I agree. I think what I was trying to say as I can see how a weapon like the pike or heavy spear, meant to be used in a military formation evolved into a civilian art using a blunt weapon in one on one conflicts. To me the old DNA, so to speak, of the military weapon can still be seen in the current forms

[t_niehoff]

I would say that the bokken is not heavy enough to "make up the difference". You have a "fixed quantity" in the amount of force the human body can take, so there is a lower limit to the mass of the blunt weapon you use.

I'm not saying blunt heavy weapons are as good as bladed weapons, I'm just disputing that they are not effective.

Well, I don't understand -- the pole is just a spear without a point! They could weigh the same.

I am not saying that the thrust isn't still a possibility with a pole, just that it isn't the "main" offensive action. Take the stick and the sword -- certainly you can poke with the stick but that isn't the main offensive action since you will get more effect with using it as a club. By the same token, if you have a sword (a pointed, sharpened stick), then using it as a club isn't your main action. And once you change your main offensive action, you need to change your set ups, your defenses, etc.

[CFT]

Don't you think the 6.5pt pole has crossed too far over that threshold for it to be used nimbly like a club? Yes, in terms of maximizing the "striking surface" you would use the last 12-18" in a "sweeping" fashion, but I would contend you get more "force" as a thrust via the tip. Each technique has its place.

I mean there is no way it would be used like a 6-7ft pole.

[chusauli]

Don't you think the 6.5pt pole has crossed too far over that threshold for it to be used nimbly like a club? Yes, in terms of maximizing the "striking surface" you would use the last 12-18" in a "sweeping" fashion, but I would contend you get more "force" as a thrust via the tip. Each technique has its place.

I mean there is no way it would be used like a 6-7ft pole.

Today's heavy hardwood pole is too heavy and a good training implement. But in actuality, Southern pole practitioners fought with the Shangdong white wax wood poles, which were lacquered or treated with oils to make them more dense and heavy, yet still retained flexibility. It was very strong, flexible, light and maneuverable, unlike the WCK training pole today.

Certainly the single head pole is not used like a 6 foot double end staff, but you can adapt the movements to any length of pole that you can comfortably use with 2 hands.

[CFT]

^^
That adds a different complexion to it. Thanks for the info.
So IS there a preferred attacking technique?

[t_niehoff]

^^
That adds a different complexion to it. Thanks for the info.
So IS there a preferred attacking technique?

Yes., that's what I have been talking about. It's not poking with the tip like a spear but striking with a swinging action.

[YungChun]

Today's heavy hardwood pole is too heavy and a good training implement. But in actuality, Southern pole practitioners fought with the Shangdong white wax wood poles, which were lacquered or treated with oils to make them more dense and heavy, yet still retained flexibility. It was very strong, flexible, light and maneuverable, unlike the WCK training pole today.

Certainly the single head pole is not used like a 6 foot double end staff, but you can adapt the movements to any length of pole that you can comfortably use with 2 hands.

Well you said earlier the "pole" was from the North... Is what you refer to above a Gwan?

Is the Gwan from the South?

Is the Gwan WCK uses heavier than a "real Gwan"..

Do you think the linear nature of the form is wrong?

Do you think WCK is mainly a linear art or something else?

A bokken has little in common with the Gwan in size or weight.

[t_niehoff]

Do you think WCK is mainly a linear art or something else?

WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking him. How can that be a "linear" art? Or, are you talking about fighting with the pole?

[t_niehoff]

Do you think the linear nature of the form is wrong?

The form isn't application -- it really doesn't matter how you do the form.

[YungChun]

WCK's method is to control the opponent while striking him. How can that be a "linear" art?

1. Question was not directed at you..

2. I know what *you* think the art is..

3. I disagree with you..

4. I refer mainly to a linear expression of power release..

5. If you can't see that the centerline is a line (linear) then that's cool with me..

[anerlich]

My instructor's advice and practice with the pole follow Robert's guidelines.

You can't spar effectively with that big, heavy beast.

[YungChun]

The form isn't application -- it really doesn't matter how you do the form.

So then it doesn't matter how we do any form, right?

Training incorrect mechanics is fine..

Nothing in the classical training, is *application* is far as you are concerned so it doesn't matter how you do it right?

Then I guess it really doesn't matter how the art is taught.. Just hand over the Kuit and you're good...

Sure, right... :rolleyes:

[t_niehoff]

1. Question was not directed at you..


If you only want to hear Robert's view PM him.



2. I know what *you* think the art is..


I doubt that. But, in any event, Robert and I are not very far apart in our approach to WCK.



3. I disagree with you..


Of course you do. That is to be expected.



4. I refer mainly to a linear expression of power release..


Oh, Lord.



5. If you can't see that the centerline is a line (linear) then that's cool with me..

The centerline is a fiction. If you can't see that then it's cool with me.

[YungChun]

The centerline is a fiction. If you can't see that then it's cool with me.


Right WCK is not based on the centerline.. Right, of course... And Robert agrees with this? Mmmm okidoki...

[Phil Redmond]

The long pole training is to develop Cheung kiu lihk (long bridge strength). An 8 foot + pole would definately be hard to fight with. A fighting pole would be lots shorter. Also the main purpose of "our" pole is to not use it like a club but to do a bone crushing strikes with the tip like a spear after parrying etc., or striking an opponent's hand.

[t_niehoff]

So then it doesn't matter how we do any form, right?

Training incorrect mechanics is fine..


Forms don't teach or train mechaincs -- they can't. Mechanics are learned and developed by doing the task itself. For example, you can't learn or develop how to correctly hit a tennis ball by a form, you learn and develop that ability by hitting the ball. A form doesn't give you the feedback.

And, no, I don't think how you do a form/set is important. Doing the skill itself is important.



Nothing in the classical training, is *application* is far as you are concerned so it doesn't matter how you do it right?


Doing the skill itself is important. Not doing the skill isn't important.



Then I guess it really doesn't matter how the art is taught.. Just hand over the Kuit and you're good...

Sure, right... :rolleyes:

Sure how you are taught is important -- teach how to do a skill, then practice doing that skill. Leave all the nonsense at the door.

Ahh, more rolling eyes -- the mark.

[t_niehoff]

The long pole training is to develop Cheung kiu lihk (long bridge strength).


What is this long bridge strength you speak of?



An 8 foot + pole would definately be hard to fight with. A fighting pole would be lots shorter. Also the main purpose of "our" pole is to not use it like a club but to do a bone crushing strikes with the tip like a spear after parrying etc., or striking an opponent's hand.

That's a great theory. Only you won't be able to hit the hand or crush any bones with the tip.

What is your plan B then?

[YungChun]

I don't have the time to debunk all of your slow pitch BS.



And, no, I don't think how you do a form/set is important. Doing the skill itself is important.

How you train a movement IS important.. Boxers train movements outside of real application all the time on a variety of devices, including air.. How many times does this need to be written..? Stop wasting my time.

I could line up a host of Human Performance Specialists who would tell you how important it is to train mechanics correctly..whatever the kind of training, whatever the intensity level...



Doing the skill itself is important. Not doing the skill isn't important.

Mechanics are mechanics, train them wrong and you program the body wrong.. (what you do)

Now have fun playing in the sandbox..

[t_niehoff]

Right WCK is not based on the centerline.. Right, of course... And Robert agrees with this? Mmmm okidoki...

WCK is not "based on" the centerline. The centerline is a fiction. It is a heuristic for beginners. Same with heaven/man/earth, the gate theory, etc.

But, if you never get passed that stage . . .

[t_niehoff]

I don't have the time to debunk all of your slow pitch BS.


You won't debunk anything.



How you train a movement IS important.. Boxers train movements outside of real application all the time on a variety of devices, including air.. How many times does this need to be written..? Stop wasting my time.


I never said how you train a movement isn't important -- just that doing forms won't teach or develop mechanics. Hitting focus mitts, for example, is practicing the skill (striking). Yes, boxers do practice shadow boxing but -- and if you actually trained boxing you'd realize this -- that involves boxing an imaginary opponent, so that you are moving as you would if an opponent was really facing you. And, your ability with this drills comes from sparring in that you take what you do in sparring and put that into your shadow boxing.

The only one wasting your time is you.



I could line up a host of Human Performance Specialists who would tell you how important it is to train mechanics correctly..whatever the kind of training, whatever the intensity level...


Again, I never said that it isn't important to train mechanics -- of course it is. But practicing forms in the air won't train mechanics.



Mechanics are mechanics, train them wrong and you program the body wrong.. (what you do)


That's right -- that's EXACTLY right. And, how do you KNOW if your mechanics are right or wrong? By doing the skill itself. That's the only way to know. The feedback from performing the skill itself is the only way to know if you are programming your body correctly. A form in the air can't give you that.



Now have fun playing in the sandbox..

But at least I have my thinking cap on. :)

[Phil Redmond]

What is this long bridge strength you speak of?



That's a great theory. Only you won't be able to hit the hand or crush any bones with the tip.

What is your plan B then?
It's very simple. Train your accuracy so that you can. ;)

[Liddel]

The feedback from performing the skill itself is the only way to know if you are programming your body correctly. A form in the air can't give you that.


Seems like this place doesnt change much...

Im curious why we see surfers practicing getting up on shore, sand doesnt give the same feedback as a moving wave.

Howabout why golfers have a practice swing when grass isnt the same as hitting the ball, or practice swinging with two clubs in hand which is a popular one at the club i belong to.

Why does my friend whos competed in commonwealth games and played pro ball for the Raiders run in a straight line with a tire tied to his waist for practice, no feedback from other players.

I know the reasons and they are fairly obvious, which begs the question why treat the Chun any different. Many other sports and fighting arts have isolted drills as part of thier training.

Forms are not the only type of training wing Chun advocates, far from it. and need i point out that i dont think anyone here is saying that either T.

You may have your thinking cap on, but the 1 to 1 peak is narrowing your view IMO.

I think VT training is limited in its traditional form, but those who walk that path and augment / add on the more modern training practices after attaining skill in the basics actually have a better more stable base to build on IME.

GSP please stand up LOL

DREW

[YungChun]

Seems like this place doesnt change much...

Im curious why we see surfers practicing getting up on shore, sand doesnt give the same feedback as a moving wave.

Howabout why golfers have a practice swing when grass isnt the same as hitting the ball, or practice swinging with two clubs in hand which is a popular one at the club i belong to.

Why does my friend whos competed in commonwealth games and played pro ball for the Raiders run in a straight line with a tire tied to his waist for practice, no feedback from other players.

I know the reasons and they are fairly obvious, which begs the question why treat the Chun any different. Many other sports and fighting arts have isolted drills as part of thier training.

Forms are not the only type of training wing Chun advocates, far from it. and need i point out that i dont think anyone here is saying that either T.

You may have your thinking cap on, but the 1 to 1 peak is narrowing your view IMO.

I think VT training is limited in its traditional form, but those who walk that path and augment / add on the more modern training practices after attaining skill in the basics actually have a better more stable base to build on IME.

GSP please stand up LOL

DREW

Hi Drew..

Yes, same old, same old.. I see no point in covering old ground over and over again and typing for it's own sake.. Sadly others do, and do it over and over and over......

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Drew..

Yes, same old, same old.. I see no point in covering old ground over and over again and typing for it's own sake.. Sadly others do, and do it over and over and over......
I need to listen to this. But a certain non-fighting knucklehead keeps getting my goat. :confused:

[YungChun]

I need to listen to this. But a certain non-fighting knucklehead keeps getting my goat. :confused:

I know me too.. I am going to work on responding less to his BS.. He has some good points but then goes off the deep end at some point. Impossible to have any kind of meaningful discussion with him so what's the point...?

It's easy to see what's reasonable here... Drew's last post and what is not reasonable...T's post he addressed...

[Phil Redmond]

I know me too.. I am going to work on responding less to his BS.. He has some good points but then goes off the deep end at some point. Impossible to have any kind of meaningful discussion with him so what's the point...?

It's easy to see what's reasonable here... Drew's last post and what is not reasonable...T's post he addressed...
I'm just going to ignore him. He won't have a platform with me. What others do is their prerogative.

[k gledhill]

Yes., that's what I have been talking about. It's not poking with the tip like a spear but striking with a swinging action.

I tried to respond but just started to laugh :D:D:D give it up T stick to your mantra....you dont even understand the system from your posts.

The system is out there, you just havent met it yet....

[Phil Redmond]

I tried to respond but just started to laugh :D:D:D give it up T stick to your mantra....you dont even understand the system from your posts.

The system is out there, you just havent met it yet....
That was priceless. :D

[YungChun]

I tried to respond but just started to laugh :D:D:D give it up T stick to your mantra....you dont even understand the system from your posts.

The system is out there, you just havent met it yet....

Well to him WCK is about control first.. So I guess T thinks the pole is for tying folks to it (safety first)...then you beat them up.

[t_niehoff]

Seems like this place doesnt change much...

Im curious why we see surfers practicing getting up on shore, sand doesnt give the same feedback as a moving wave.


Because they are beginners -- and we often learn in unrealistic environments, particularly when the realistic environment is chaotic.



Howabout why golfers have a practice swing when grass isnt the same as hitting the ball, or practice swinging with two clubs in hand which is a popular one at the club i belong to.


Are you serious? Why do people have "practice swings"? To loosen up, get in a groove, etc. We're talking about how to learn and develop skill and you bring up "practice swings"?



Why does my friend whos competed in commonwealth games and played pro ball for the Raiders run in a straight line with a tire tied to his waist for practice, no feedback from other players.


Conditioning.

Seriously, you do know the difference between skill building and conditioning, right?



I know the reasons and they are fairly obvious, which begs the question why treat the Chun any different. Many other sports and fighting arts have isolted drills as part of thier training.


Yes, they do. They have drills for conditioning and drills for skill development. As for the latter, you do that through what is termed "specificity" -- which boils down to practicing the skill itself to develop the skill. If you "knew the reasons" then you'd know this.



Forms are not the only type of training wing Chun advocates, far from it. and need i point out that i dont think anyone here is saying that either T.


I know that no one is saying that they are the only form of training -- my point is that they are not training at all. They are a waste of time.



You may have your thinking cap on, but the 1 to 1 peak is narrowing your view IMO.

I think VT training is limited in its traditional form, but those who walk that path and augment / add on the more modern training practices after attaining skill in the basics actually have a better more stable base to build on IME.


You are assuming taht people "attain skill with the basics" through traditional training, and they simply don't. You attain skill by practicing that skill, not by not practicing that skill.



GSP please stand up LOL

DREW

GSP, like all other good MMA fighters, developed his skill from modern training methods. When fighter 1 does TMA + MMA training and succeeds in MMA, that doesn't prove his TMA had any significance, particularly in light of how fighters fighters with no TMA + MMA training also succeed. This is just another case of people using poor reasoning to reach the conclusions they want.

[chusauli]

^^
That adds a different complexion to it. Thanks for the info.
So IS there a preferred attacking technique?

Sorry guys, but I do see patients and it gets busy. The pole follows WCK's ideas. You have a Mun Gwun (Asking pole) - it is a strike or a stab. Then you follow up with multiple strikes.

[LoneTiger108]

I'm sorry to have not posted but I've been too busy trying to see things from others perspectives and research every other pole form out there by following links to Youtube, THEN I'm trying to sift through the less repetative responses to actually see if there is ANYONE here who has actuallyu been taught the WING CHUN pole form directly from a reputable weaponry teacher? :confused:

I find it strange that nobody has even the slightest idea why we do use the right hand in the front, and not the left?

I find it so funny that theres confusion as to the use of a 'dim', whether linear or circular!

I am basically trying to highlight that there seems to be 7 pages of advice on what the WC pole is NOT good for, and what OTHER pole forms are out there and how bloody great THEY are!

What I considered to be a good debatable subject matter has actually been a complete waste of time... :o

AGAIN :mad:

[LoneTiger108]

Sorry guys, but I do see patients and it gets busy. The pole follows WCK's ideas. You have a Mun Gwun (Asking pole) - it is a strike or a stab. Then you follow up with multiple strikes.

I don't like saying this BUT that is probably the worst bit of advice I've seen relating to the Wing Chun Pole.

With respect Robert, as an exceptionally talented researcher I'm sure that you know just a little bit more about the Wing Chun pole than you let on. And when you don't know just admit it and move on!

There is always something new to learn. Even for you.

FWIW Mun Gwun isn't the most favoured attack of the pole by far, it's the 1st point, which is why it's the first set in the form. :rolleyes: