Wing Chun Mantis anyone?

[KPM]

Though Wing Chun is my "root" system, I've always been interested in and admired Southern Mantis as well....specifically Master Gin Foon Mark's version. At various times in past years I've toyed with Mantis technique, though Wing Chun has remained my main system. I am not attached to any specific Wing Chun lineage, though I work from my own understanding of good biomechanics and what I have seen of Robert Chu's "body structure" methods. I find that this fits well with some of the Southern Mantis stuff and things are really starting to "gel" together for me. What I find my martial practice evolving into is a Wing Chun base with a strong Mantis "flavor." I know, I know....the purists will be on me for mixing systems. But isn't that the way Wing Chun came about to begin with....a mixture of Snake and Crane?

I know that James Cama teaches both Southern Mantis and Fut Sao Wing Chun, but he seems to keep them separated. Has anyone else worked on a blend of Wing Chun and Mantis? I'd be interested in hearing your experiences and observations. Thanks!

[couch]

Though Wing Chun is my "root" system, I've always been interested in and admired Southern Mantis as well....specifically Master Gin Foon Mark's version. At various times in past years I've toyed with Mantis technique, though Wing Chun has remained my main system. I am not attached to any specific Wing Chun lineage, though I work from my own understanding of good biomechanics and what I have seen of Robert Chu's "body structure" methods. I find that this fits well with some of the Southern Mantis stuff and things are really starting to "gel" together for me. What I find my martial practice evolving into is a Wing Chun base with a strong Mantis "flavor." I know, I know....the purists will be on me for mixing systems. But isn't that the way Wing Chun came about to begin with....a mixture of Snake and Crane?

I know that James Cama teaches both Southern Mantis and Fut Sao Wing Chun, but he seems to keep them separated. Has anyone else worked on a blend of Wing Chun and Mantis? I'd be interested in hearing your experiences and observations. Thanks!

Don't do it man. That's the dark side. LOL :p

[chusauli]

WCK and Mantis have different body structure.

The steps and hands are similar, but the body structure is not. I have met Master Mark Gin Foon and others in Southern Mantis. I think it is a great system, but a closed door system. Finding great instruction is hard.

[KPM]

WCK and Mantis have different body structure.

The steps and hands are similar, but the body structure is not. I have met Master Mark Gin Foon and others in Southern Mantis. I think it is a great system, but a closed door system. Finding great instruction is hard.

---I agree with both of your points. What I'm working on is using those similar hands and steps, but not necessarily their body structure. I'm not looking to study Southern Mantis as another system. I'm looking to Southern Mantis for inspiration on ways to give my Wing Chun a Mantis "flavor." So not really a combo of Wing Chun and a specific Southern Mantis system, but rather the idea of "how would I do some of their Mantis stuff with a Wing Chun engine." :)

[Lee Chiang Po]

Just as long as you remember that black and white will always make gray. Good and bad will always make mediocre.
I have seen Mantis, and it wastes too much energy, and the horse you ride is way too big. You asked for opinions, and that was mine.

[KPM]

Just as long as you remember that black and white will always make gray. Good and bad will always make mediocre.
I have seen Mantis, and it wastes too much energy, and the horse you ride is way too big. You asked for opinions, and that was mine.

---No problem. I appreciate the feedback. Black and white only make gray if you see things in absolutes. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that, if there are things in SPM that you like and you wanna add them to your WC, that is one thing, mixing they two is probably not a good idea.
Like Robert said, the structure is different, perhaps too different.
Of course, anything can be customized...

I think that WC and SPM probably over lap in most of the areas that are their "core", but then again, maybe you see in SPM something you don't in WC...

[KPM]

There is another element in my Wing Chun "evolution." When I studied Pin Sun with Jim Roselando, I really liked the way the material was organized into San Sik. So when I went back to my Yip Man WCK, I separated my Yip Man forms into San Sik. Following the San Sik organization, I practice each short section solo stationary and then start adding various footwork patterns. I work each section on the dummy. I work the application of each section in a two-man training with a partner. Finally I work each section with the butterfly knives. I have included a Mantis "flavor" by doing some of the San Sik with a little different "energy" that brings out that Mantis "feel." I have also introduced some new San Sik that are "inspired by" some of the SPM material but that still have a Wing Chun biomechanic. Many of the San Sik also have application with a tactical folder held in reverse grip. This is a work in progress, but I have the first level material worked out pretty well and have been teaching it to two private students.

So what is evolving for me is Wing Chun from primarily a Yip Man root and influence from Pin Sun....organized into a San Sik curriculum...with a definite Southern Mantis "flavor" or "feel." For me this has made my WCK more "flowing" and has given it more application with a tactical folder.

[TenTigers]

Chu-Sifu, could you go into more detail on the "different engines" concept?

[kung fu fighter]

What's the difference between mantis body structure and bio-mechanics and wing chun body structure?

[jo]

Just as long as you remember that black and white will always make gray. Good and bad will always make mediocre.
I have seen Mantis, and it wastes too much energy, and the horse you ride is way too big. You asked for opinions, and that was mine.


Whose mantis are you referring to?

In reference to energy, southern mantis should be efficient. As the old poem says, there should be blood within three blows.

Breath control is essential in the Nan Quan arts.

Perhaps you just saw somebody huffing and puffing? That is not good southern mantis.


In reference to stances, as taught by the late Lum Wing Fay, the knees are close together to protect the groin and to facilitate movement/entry. "Closing the body" is essential in this branch.

As taught by the late Ip Sui, his horse was a bit more "forward oriented", but still not very wide.
But then, he was able to retract his testicles and withstand strong kicks to his groin.

I guess you just saw some bad stances. It could happen to anyone.

-jo

[Wu Wei Wu]

hi,

The book 'Complete Wing Chun' mentions that my Sifu's (Leung, Kwok-Keung) Wing Chun had a distinct Mantis flavour.

If you have any questions PM me.

Suki

[KPM]

Hi Jo!

In reference to energy, southern mantis should be efficient. As the old poem says, there should be blood within three blows.

---I agree. But it may be a little different type of "efficiency" than what most WCK guys are used to. It could be argued that Mantis is a little less direct. They sometimes use several hand motions to set up the strike rather than striking directly like WCK. But I see this as bridging from further out. So it really isn't any less efficient. Have you ever teased a real Mantis with a stick? It will run right up the stick and your arm to get to you. :)


In reference to stances, as taught by the late Lum Wing Fay, the knees are close together to protect the groin and to facilitate movement/entry. "Closing the body" is essential in this branch.

---Again, I agree. SPM guys normally maintain at stance that is a bit wider than most WCK, but not by much. But they also sometimes lock out the rear leg into a more "traditional" front stance, which WCK never does. That might be what Lee was referring to.


But then, he was able to retract his testicles and withstand strong kicks to his groin.

---Have you seen that clip from "Mind, Body, and Kickin Moves"? That was pretty impressive! :eek:

[HardWork8]

---I agree with both of your points. What I'm working on is using those similar hands and steps, but not necessarily their body structure. I'm not looking to study Southern Mantis as another system. I'm looking to Southern Mantis for inspiration on ways to give my Wing Chun a Mantis "flavor." So not really a combo of Wing Chun and a specific Southern Mantis system, but rather the idea of "how would I do some of their Mantis stuff with a Wing Chun engine." :)

I believe that you would need good instruction of Mantis even if it was just to use aspects of it as an "inspiration". And as Chu sifu pointed out, it is very difficult to find good instruction.

Or do you have instruction already? If so, then your quest would be a lot easier.:)

[TenTigers]

"They sometimes use several hand motions to set up the strike rather than striking directly like WCK."
I have never seen this in Lum Wing-Fay's Jook Lum Mantis. Quite the contrary, strikes usually intercept the opponent's intention and strike directly to the target, preferring to slip in,while angling the body,deflecting the strike with the other hand, or as you described the creeping up the arm-the first hand strikes first,while the forearm is 'blocking', or even 'blocking' on the way out.
Where have you seen the mantis you described? Just curious.

[HardWork8]

"They sometimes use several hand motions to set up the strike rather than striking directly like WCK."
I have never seen this in Lum Wing-Fay's Jook Lum Mantis. Quite the contrary, strikes usually intercept the opponent's intention and strike directly to the target,

Nor have I seen this in Chow Gar Mantis, where if anything, they are even more direct(and powerful) than Wing Chun exponents.

[Jim Roselando]

Kieth,


South Mantis is EXTREMELY direct and most of the Sifu's I have met are less flowery than Wing Chun in application. They don't mess around but you may be looking at some of their two man training as more "extensive" when compared to some other exercises you have been exposed to but no doubt Mantis is very direct in application. If they try to hit you and nothing is there then you will be hit. If you deflect it they will use the flexible hand to continue with forward pressure driving thru you. They maintain this principle;

Contact, Control & Strike!

This can be done all in one action or best suited for the situation. South Mantis has much two man training. While it may seem to be training some different stuff, to build more feeling, and flexible reactions, it has the core of Contact, Control & Strike guiding it!

Just some thoughts!

:)

[KPM]

Hi Guys!

Thanks for the feedback! Maybe "indirect" was a poor choice of words on my part. What I am thinking of is the idea of "bridging" from further out. Picture contacting an incoming strike with a Tan as you are moving in but are not yet close enough to strike the body. As the gap closes your Tan is transitioning to a strike as your other hand comes up as a Pak on his arm to maintain contact. Now the distance closes even more and your Tan hand lands the strike. Or picture contacting an incoming strike with an inward Jut motion. As the gap closes your rear hand comes up to Lop as your Jut hand flows forward to strike. This is like the Mantis "running up the arm" to get to the tormentor. It is actually a 3 count motion done very fast. It fits perfectly with what Jim described as "contact, control & strike." I thought I had seen Gin Foon Mark doing this. Maybe not. But this is part of what I consider a "Mantis" aspect to what I am doing, whether other Mantis guys are doing it or not! :)

This "3 count bridging" fits very well with using the tactical folder. Typically the rhythm is to cut the attacking limb on the first beat, check and control with the empty hand as you move in, and land a more definitive blow with the blade on the 3rd beat. It starts from further out because you want to be damaging and controlling the attacker's weapon hand/arm as soon as possible!

[TenTigers]

then you should be looking at Kali, yes? The three-count bridging, we used to refer to as,"Tap,Tap, Hit" or "Tap, Trap,Hit." also referred to as phon-sao or trading hands, or a hand exchange. Great against a jab.

[KPM]

then you should be looking at Kali, yes? The three-count bridging, we used to refer to as,"Tap,Tap, Hit" or "Tap, Trap,Hit." also referred to as phon-sao or trading hands, or a hand exchange. Great against a jab.

Yes. I have! :) That is one of the influences on what I am doing. I have trained in Inosanto's version and done some Dog Brothers stuff as well. I have spent a lot of time working on the tactical folder system developed by James Keating and elaborated upon by Michael Janich. I've thought about how I could make it fit better with my Wing Chun. And guess what?.....what I came up with started looking to me more and more like a version of "Mantis" movements. So it is interesting how different things have started to "mesh" or to "gel" for me. I am not doing just a "hodge-podge" of things like some JKD guys. What I am doing is a coherent system in itself with a Wing Chun core.

[k gledhill]

try throwing a straight kick instead of a 3 beat entry...

[KPM]

try throwing a straight kick instead of a 3 beat entry...

That would work. But your balance may not be "right" for a kick at that moment. He may be expecting a kick and you don't want a counter to throw you off balance. Or he may just be one tough SOB that could just shrug off all but the best of kicks! The kick will not control on the way in as well as the hands.

[k gledhill]

control the better % by attacking ..let him worry about how good your kick is ;) Ive used low front kicks in fights , with positive results . The line of the heel to target is as a straight one.

Using the inch punch source of force [ the heel] we time the contact of the kick to coincide with the support heel driving into the ground . Creating the equal and opposite force to enter the opponent....whatever you can generate as a max out he receives in the kick to be followed by further [ if required ] attacks.

being off balance is as hypothetical as all the other scenarios, old school balance traing we did was to stand on one leg for 3 minutes in a chambered kick position knees up by the hand leading in by jong .

Then standing on one leg while chasing anothert partner on one leg as well trying to push them over with the leg being held up [ not fullforce kicking but more to push them over and chase them if they started to fall...] while holding the arms in the basic drawn position...stamina and balance come ....1st one to have to put their foot down is the one who needs more practice ...

Keeping in the vertical axis line we fight from while moving will help balance issues. Chum Kil forms are to develop these ideas of movement without losing the balance axis line as we attack and chase the opponents.


Maybe 's and ifs can be dealt with in training, in the fight dont think and try to walk up his arm in a 3 beat counter unless he's asleep then do it to not wake him up :D until its too LATE ! :D:D

[TenTigers]

the three-beat can be used against a jab because the jab does not stay out there, but retracts(if he's actually trying to throw a punch and not posing)youfollow it home, and trap the elbow,arm. No, it's not foolproof, nothing is, and you can get into a bad habit of slap-boxing if youare not intelligent in your training. But I see your point. Many roads...
KPM-you may want to also look into Sayoc Kali. Their blade work is very fluid, and runs (Jow-sao) the way some WCK and SPM schools do. Food for thought.
Just don't develop the dabbler's mentality, taking a few drills and thinking,
"I know it."

[Ali. R]

Good post, “stay with what comes and follow what goes”…


Ali Rahim.

[Jim Roselando]

Kieth,

From what I experienced it was not 3 count replacing hands but 3 in one action. Similar to a Jik Chui straight punch cleave and hit one action and center attack. Either inward or outward. You are contacting, controlling and stirking one action. This can be done with one hand, or one hand control and the other hit, or etc..

:)

[KPM]

Kevin said:
Maybe 's and ifs can be dealt with in training, in the fight dont think and try to walk up his arm in a 3 beat counter unless he's asleep then do it to not wake him up until its too LATE !


---When I say "3 count", don't think of a plodding 1....2....3. This happens VERY fast. Its not so much 3 actual "counts", but it is 3 movements rolled up into one. It has a very "flowing" quality. Again, think of it as bridging from further out and controlling all the way in.


Jim said:
From what I experienced it was not 3 count replacing hands but 3 in one action. Similar to a Jik Chui straight punch cleave and hit one action and center attack. Either inward or outward. You are contacting, controlling and stirking one action.

---The 3 "count" can happen so quickly that the actions blend together.

TT said:
Just don't develop the dabbler's mentality, taking a few drills and thinking,
"I know it."

---Good advice! But like I said before, this is not a "hodge-podge" JKD project. This is a fully integrated approach I'm working on.

[Firehawk4]

Yueng Fooks Wing Chun has Southern Mantis mixed in it .

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Robert,

any word about the Yeung Fook CD as yet?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Jo, I am sorry I took so long to respond. The Mantis I was using as a reference would be called 7 star I do believe. I also think it is a Northern style of Mantis? I was living in New Orleans in the very late 60's. I visited a friend that had a kwoon in the back of his large house. It was a community of Asians, mostly Chinese. My friend asked me to attend a meeting or training session and maybe even give his class a demonstration of my skills of Wing Chun. Actually, his father invited me, and he was wanting me to teach his younger son. That is another story.
That is the only time I was ever really exposed to this system of fighting, and I was not really liking it much. They had a big horse. I cannot spread my stance that wide without causing pain in my hips and I lose a great deal of mobility. Also, the hand techniques were telegraphed. They had too much distance to cover and the blocks were just that. Blocks. And they were not conducive to simultanious defend and attack.
This was just my own impression of 7 star mantis. I am biased of course, and because I am a long time practitioner of Wing Chun gung fu I feel I will naturally find fault. At least I am honest about that. Another thing I seem to remember was that they did a great deal of kicking. I would never attempt a high kick in a real fight. But these kids were applying kicks that were head high to me. During a short demonstration of Wing Chun I used the fact that they were standing on one leg and rolled them all over the place. Admitted, these were not highly advanced students of gung fu, but they were not your average kid on the street either.

[KPM]

Jo, I am sorry I took so long to respond. The Mantis I was using as a reference would be called 7 star I do believe. I also think it is a Northern style of Mantis? .

Ah! Yes it is! And Northern Mantis is very different than Southern Mantis!

[KPM]

I thought I would mention another aspect of "Wing Chun Mantis." This aspect is a heavier use of the Phoenix Eye fist than is seen in most other Wing Chun methods. Most Wing Chun will target the torso when punching. I know when I was learning Yip Man WCK I was taught to punch towards the other guy's sternum. I took lots of hits there during Chi Sao as well! :o But striking the chest with the typical flat fist doesn't accomplish a whole lot. Sure, you may rock your opponent a little bit, but unless his root is non-existant you aren't going to slow him down much. But make that same strike with a Phoenix Eye Fist and now you've got his attention! :eek: The idea is to get that "oh s...t" flinch reflex that makes him roll his shoulders forward and makes his arms go weak for just a second. Now you can close and control more effectively and meet with less resistance. Another benefit of the Phoenix Eye Fist is when using it as a "cutting" punch. Since the fist is angled downward a bit upon impact, when striking across the top of the opponent's own punch or guard it is very effective at taking the line and still impacting for maximum effect. Likewise, when striking from beneath the opponent's punch, that downward angling of the fist on impact actually lifts the forearm and more effectively deflects his punch as you hit him. So a big use of the Phoenix Eye Fist in Wing Chun Mantis is when closing with an opponent to either deflect his punch or collapse his guard while striking him solidly in the torso to get that "flinch" that effectively "turns off" his ability to further respond for that split second that it takes for you to continue closing and either land a more definitive blow or tie him up. Even if you have already closed and are briefly exchanging, the Phoenix Eye Fist delivered to his chest at close range with "inch power" is often enough to let you gain the advantage. When using a tactical folder in a forward grip, the Phoenix Eye Fist strike is essentially a straight thrust.

[bennyvt]

COOL i CHECKED THIS AFTER THE OTHER TOPIC.
When in china I found that many of the people did this in chi sao. From the Fuk sao position they would slide over your tan and hit you with it. At first I was trying to just extend the tan sao to stop it but due to there being no real elbow it wouldnt work. I found that I had to pivot towards the punch to get any real control of it or use a reverse tan (the move in CK with both hands in the first section after the pivots, I suck at the real names). Between that and the back fist it seemed like that was their best moves as they tended to do it heaps.

[stonecrusher69]

just control the wrist no need to turn or a just the hand