Japan knife attack

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-stab9-2008jun09,0,5331631.story

TOKYO -- A lone attacker rammed a truck into pedestrians, then slashed his way with a survival knife through Sunday shopping crowds in one of Tokyo's most popular neighborhoods, killing seven people and wounding 10.

Police quoted Tomohiro Kato, 25, as saying he came to the Akihabara district, a canyon of computer and electronics stores, vowing to "kill people."

"I am tired of the world," the part-time worker in an auto parts plant reportedly told police after his arrest. "Anyone was OK."

Kato reportedly drove a rented 2-ton truck from his hometown of Susono, about 60 miles southwest of Tokyo, arriving in Akihabara around noon. The area, renowned as the center of Japan's anime and manga culture, is particularly clogged with shoppers on Sundays when its streets are closed to vehicles for "Pedestrian Paradise Day."

The assailant plowed the truck through a major intersection, knocking down at least three people before striking a taxi and stopping. Witnesses said the attacker then fled the damaged vehicle, furiously stabbing one of the injured pedestrians and a policeman who came to the aid of the victims.

He then bolted down a side street, stabbing others as he went and triggering confusion as thousands of shoppers surged to either escape the rampage or to get a closer look. Television footage showed the intersection littered with sneakers and bloody clothing.

The dead were six men ages 19 to 74 and a 21-year-old woman. A policeman ended the frenzy by knocking the knife from the attacker's hands with a nightstick. But the assailant did not surrender until the officer drew his gun. Video posted on Japanese websites showed a man identified as Kato, wearing a black T-shirt under a white suit and bleeding slightly from a head wound, with his hands raised. It then showed the policeman pushing him into a fetal position against a wall and sitting on his legs while using his radio to call for help.

Japan's recorded murder rate remains extremely low, but the country has been unsettled by other recent knife attacks. A 16-year-old boy attacked shoppers with knives in Tokyo in January, injuring two. In March, a man already wanted on murder charges stabbed eight people, killing one, outside a mall in Ibaraki prefecture north of the capital. Both are in custody.

Akihabara is one of the most popular tourist destinations in Japan, attracting those who are obsessed with video games, animated characters and cafes where young women dressed in maid uniforms serve coffee and conversation to young men.

The nature of the neighborhood ensured the killings received blanket media attention, spawning almost instant video images and blog reports.

Japanese media also reported they had discovered anonymous postings on a cellphone network bulletin board from someone vowing to "kill people in Akihabara." The person reportedly posted a series of messages leading up to the attack. The last entry was posted just after noon.

"It's time," it read.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We don't need no stinkin guns !!

[SoCo KungFu]

I don't think they do. That is one of the very reasons I actually liked living in Japan.

I can't speak for things in recent events since its been a little over a year since I moved back to US now. But I can say that at the time I was there (early 2003 - late2006) this type of thing was rather rare.

To put it like this: In the US when someone gets shot or stabbed. You barely ever hear about it. Its just the norm. You might see it on local news. But doesn't get too much attention. And when it does people aren't shocked. Its pretty much expected that something like that would happen.

The opposite was true over there. Whenever something like that happened the whole freak'n country was talking about it. It would be all over the news and the night time talk/comedy shows (Don't know how to describe them, sorta like "The View" meets Jay Leno meets MXC).

Although contrary to belief, you actually CAN own some firearms in Japan. Sport and hunting rifles I do believe are legal. Just nothing that could be carried concealed. Its just such an incredibly painful process to get one that most people don't bother. In Okinawa if I remember right;

It was a day for application...by that I mean a day to do all the papers. I think it was a week before you were "approved." I say "approved" because all that did was get you into a safety class. Which was 3 days long. Afterward you then had to do more papers. And once those had processed you could then purchase a gun. But....you then had to file with law enforcement. You had to show all the proof and documentation that you are authorized. Plus you had to submit blue prints of you home and they had to clearly display where the gun was being stored. Also they had to show the location of the ammunition. And they had to be stored in separate locations. I don't remember exactly if that meant separate rooms. Furthermore if at any time you were to move one of the items, you had to resubmit new blue prints. And to top it off you became subject to random search by law enforcement at least twice a year to ensure everything is as you said it was.

Personally I couldn't get one even if I wanted to since I wasn't a Japanese citizen. If I had brought one over I'd have had to lock it up in the base armory the whole time. Not that I care though. I will say that its the only place I lived where there are still school kids walking home 8 o'clock at night. I could walk around the neighborhood, Miko and I could go to one of the "lookout" points up in the hills or whatever and really I never had a single problem of so much as even a negative glance from anyone....save other Americans there (and I don't mean that to sound like I'm bashing my own people, its just how it was). I mean there is still the usual petty crimes. And they have some issues with sexual predators. I don't know any stats, just that tended to top the news. And I think suicide mighta been higher. But hey I'm a firm believer in if you wanna kill some people...start with yourself.

I will say this though, there is a reason why myself and so many other people I know have said, that if I ever have kids that's where I'd raise em.

[Mr Punch]

We don't need no stinkin guns !!So, what are you suggesting? Arming and training the whole populace? I think you're overestimating the competence of the average person. This is one of the busiest areas of Tokyo esp on its pedestrian only day.

The guy crashed his truck, which everybody naturally thought was an accident, then walked down the street cutting people, which you probably couldn't see from even two or three metres away if it was the usual crowd density. Plus, as everyone knows, this is the safest country in the developed world. You could translate that into a nation of sheeple, which isn't necessarily far off, but you could also take it for what it is: I can tell you it's great being able to walk anywhere at night without looking over my shoulder. Plus again, there are very very often performance artists and candid camera style media stunts in this land of cosplay and fantasy, so I'd hazard a guess that a few people thought it was a gag until too late.

Given LEO wisdom on the difficulty of using a gun effectively on a knife wielder in that range (ie: the knife wins), plus any stats you want to look at on bystanders getting injured, add a lot of confusion, shock, incredulity: and what, you want some Joe-san to pull a gun on him and whoever gets in his way or happens to be behind him?

Nobody'd be crying if the police had've had to have wasted him (although he said he wanted to die so rotting in Japan's prisons would be better - and these are not like the cushy prisons we have in the UK and prob in Canada) but I think they handled it right in the only reasonable conclusion to this incident. Shame they couldn't have done it faster, but that's not their fault for once.

Good luck with your logic.

[Mr Punch]

I will say this though, there is a reason why myself and so many other people I know have said, that if I ever have kids that's where I'd raise em.Not me, mate. The racism's far too ****ty. As is the group mentality/pressure to conform stuff. I'm taking my babes home.

[unkokusai]

Not me, mate. The racism's far too ****ty. As is the group mentality/pressure to conform stuff. I'm taking my babes home.

The "group" thing is overblown, and you'll find racism anywhere and everywhere.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I agree, but it's still there.

And yeah, racism's everywhere, but here it effects me! LOL

Plus, it's more institutionalized than in the UK. For example, I can't get a real job as a teacher over here (I'm always an assistant teacher) because the teaching union doesn't allow foreigners to take the tests to become teachers and they don't recognise any other country's teaching certificates (imagine that! Foreign language teachers being from a native-speaking country!). Sooo, I can never get promotion, can never get a pay rise, never get increased holidays, never get more than a one-year contract (thus will not be able to buy a house), and will never get bonuses like the Japanese English teachers here most of whom can't even speak the language!

For me to become a property owner here would take major hoops.

I'm not even mentioned on my wife's family register except in a little footnote where they would put pets...! :rolleyes: And that's despite British registry offices keeping the same information as required on the kouseki touhon.

There are many many other examples, which are prevented in law in the UK, so my wife will not have the same kind of trouble.

Apart from that, 'halfs' are looked on as freaks over here, even now with increased exposure in the media, whereas mixed race kids in the UK have way less of a problem.

[unkokusai]

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/05/27/uk.riots.02/index.html



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/apr/22/lawrence.ukcrime



http://www.oxfordstudent.com/ht2002wk2/news/institutional_racism_in_uk_universities%3F



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1299713.stm



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3885213.stm



http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/parents/life/health_happiness/problems/bullying.shtml




Maybe it would be easier to just say you'd rather live here or there...

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, what are you suggesting? Arming and training the whole populace? I think you're overestimating the competence of the average person. This is one of the busiest areas of Tokyo esp on its pedestrian only day.

The guy crashed his truck, which everybody naturally thought was an accident, then walked down the street cutting people, which you probably couldn't see from even two or three metres away if it was the usual crowd density. Plus, as everyone knows, this is the safest country in the developed world. You could translate that into a nation of sheeple, which isn't necessarily far off, but you could also take it for what it is: I can tell you it's great being able to walk anywhere at night without looking over my shoulder. Plus again, there are very very often performance artists and candid camera style media stunts in this land of cosplay and fantasy, so I'd hazard a guess that a few people thought it was a gag until too late.

Given LEO wisdom on the difficulty of using a gun effectively on a knife wielder in that range (ie: the knife wins), plus any stats you want to look at on bystanders getting injured, add a lot of confusion, shock, incredulity: and what, you want some Joe-san to pull a gun on him and whoever gets in his way or happens to be behind him?

Nobody'd be crying if the police had've had to have wasted him (although he said he wanted to die so rotting in Japan's prisons would be better - and these are not like the cushy prisons we have in the UK and prob in Canada) but I think they handled it right in the only reasonable conclusion to this incident. Shame they couldn't have done it faster, but that's not their fault for once.

Good luck with your logic.

LOL !
Interesting take on the few words I posted, way off of course, but an interesting take.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In the old country we have a saying, if you don't have a dog, you go hunting with a cat.

This incident proves two things, you don't need a gun to cause some serious mass killings and never under estimate a bladed weapon.

[Scott R. Brown]

....never under estimate a bladed weapon.

...or a car!

[sanjuro_ronin]

...or a car!

Car-Fu for the win, try to pull guard on a Subaru and see where that gets you !

[jdhowland]

Not me, mate. The racism's far too ****ty. As is the group mentality/pressure to conform stuff. I'm taking my babes home.

I know an American-Japanese couple who left Japan simply so their bairns would not be subject to the Japanese public school system. This was a boon for martial arts in the U.S. This man may be the only person authorized to teach Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu outside of Japan. Quintin Chambers, a menkyo holder in Shinto Muso Ryu, was also happy to relocate his English-Japanese family to Hawaii because, as he told me, "Their critical thinking is zero." Neither of these Japanese-European-American couples can be accused of belittling Japanese culture. They are simply well aware of perceived shortcomings and were willing to relocate to give their children the best tools for creating their futures.

As to the question of how one man can stab so many people with a knife: was it because Japanese people are more passive? I don't think so. The crowded conditions as mentioned above certainly had a lot to do with it. Did people approach the truck because they thought there had been an accident? Did they rush in to help the victims? Did they stand still, uncomprehending? All of the above?

I've heard a couple of Alaskans say that such a thing couldn't happen here. If you haven't been convicted of a felony or domestic violence crime you don't need a permit to carry concealed here, and many people carry weapons in their vehicles on a daily basis. Also we don't have crowded streets anywhere in our state. But could a similar situation happen here? I'm sure it could. We become conditioned to the norms of society, not its aberrations. This is where martial arts training has real value in modern times. It trains us to make quick decisions in dangerous circumstances.

Be well.

jd

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know an American-Japanese couple who left Japan simply so their bairns would not be subject to the Japanese public school system. This was a boon for martial arts in the U.S. This man may be the only person authorized to teach Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu outside of Japan. Quintin Chambers, a menkyo holder in Shinto Muso Ryu, was also happy to relocate his English-Japanese family to Hawaii because, as he told me, "Their critical thinking is zero." Neither of these Japanese-European-American couples can be accused of belittling Japanese culture. They are simply well aware of perceived shortcomings and were willing to relocate to give their children the best tools for creating their futures.

I have heard and experienced similar views from friends and colleges that trained in Japan.


As to the question of how one man can stab so many people with a knife

Because he wanted to and was able to, just that simple.


People don't need guns if they want to go on a killing spree, of course if this was in Great Britain there would be an uproar to ban knives !

[unkokusai]

I have heard and experienced similar views from friends and colleges that trained in Japan.




If you turn on the evening news, are you going to hear about the tornado that ripped through a midwest town, or the nice calm sunny day enjoyed by a town somewhere else?

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you turn on the evening news, are you going to hear about the tornado that ripped through a midwest town, or the nice calm sunny day enjoyed by a town somewhere else?

Depends on how hot that sunny day was.
:D

[Mr Punch]

LOL !
Interesting take on the few words I posted, way off of course, but an interesting take.Yeah, well... er... ha! That... er, showed you? B!tch.

Er, so WTF were you saying? :confused: :D


In the old country we have a saying, if you don't have a dog, you go hunting with a cat.That there country's a bit of a silly country if you ask me. And the people are thin.


People don't need guns if they want to go on a killing spree, of course if this was in Great Britain there would be an uproar to ban knives !Where have you been? Knives are banned in UK... so much so a restaurant worker was arrested for carrying one the other day and it went so far as to go to court, because when the police called to check her story nobody answered!

AND, many people are calling for a ban on knives over here now.

To me the point is, they have a law that bans knives over 15 cm, which seems a bit silly. I mean, sure, you can kill anyone with a box-cutter, you can stab someone in the heart with 3 cm, and you could **** somebody up pretty well with a pencil, but the 15 cm is a little ludicrous. Either don't ban them, or ban all of them.

[Mr Punch]

Maybe it would be easier to just say you'd rather live here or there...No, I'm going to stick with what I'm saying. Of course it's personal: read my posts, I never said anything else. Because of course racism doesn't effect me much back home (as a white guy... I have been a subject to at least two racist attacks as I grew up in minority areas but that's a different story), and it affects me a lot here. So yeah, the racism's too ****ty.

Am I saying my own country doesn't have serious racist elements? No.
Am I saying Japan is a ****ty place? No, I love it.
I am saying that yes, I'd rather live in the UK, and one of the main reasons why is because Japanese racism will affect me and my family much more than British racism.

Incidentally, I have always fought racism in my own country: through political party activity, through demonstration and in some cases through physical altercations. I would like to do the same in Japan, but you know what? I also want to get on with my life, and tackle other political issues that affect me and mean a lot to me. With that in mind, I can be a lot more effective fighting racism in the UK, where at least I have a better understanding of the mindset, and I'm not just another 'urusai gaijin' than I can in Japan.

And it'd would be silly to start comparing and saying which country's more racist. Of course, they're both racist in different ways. But let's a have just a wee look at some of these links you posted.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/05/27/uk.riots.02/index.html

This is irrelevant as a comparison. The UK is about 8% ethnic minority, with a long history of both trouble-free cohabitation and trouble-rife ghettoization. This riot was started by an NF attack on Asian premises, deliberately to cause trouble.

Japan is about 1.5% ethnic minority, with next to no ghettoization. The Japanese uyoku along with right wing black-marketeers and outright yakuza actually founded the ruling LDP party, in case you forgot. They don't need to stir up trouble of that kind as they still hold the power base in the government.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/apr/22/lawrence.ukcrime

Guess what? The Met had an extensive enquiry, changed a lot of policies, and then are still prepared to admit they are institutionally racist. Show me the same level of debate in the Japanese police force with regards to their policing of Koreans (even nisei), blacks in general, Iranians etc. Just one enquiry that accepted they have a problem.

http://www.oxfordstudent.com/ht2002wk2/news/institutional_racism_in_uk_universities%3F

This one's a bit silly. Sure you can quote 25% feel they've been subject to racism. Give me any touchy subject about complaints and we can get a survey to say that 25% of the sample feel ****ed off. There's no analysis in these statistics or in this article giving a breakdown of who choose to do what jobs: thus taking into account traditional Asian family structure for example. Again, I'm not saying that the racism in the article doesn't exist, I'm just saying the article is daft.

And then let's see the equivalent article about academics in Japan... Oh yeah: it just isn't talked about.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1299713.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3885213.stm

Yeah it's bad in the UK for that... LOL, nisei in Japan are not allowed political positions. Naturalized citizens or even changed full citizens are not allowed to vote. I've already mentioned the teaching problem. In the UK foreign teachers are protected by the labour laws and the teaching union, and their experience is taken into account: in Japan the union forbids them from getting a full position!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/parents/life/health_happiness/problems/bullying.shtml

Did you read that one? There's nothing about race on there on a brief skim-read. But if you want to go comparing the two countries' records of bullying in school and the workplace, the laws against those that the UK implemented in the late 70s and early 80s are just being implemented here.

[unkokusai]

And it'd would be silly to start comparing and saying which country's more racist. .




So then you went ahead and did exactly that anyway. Good job.

[Mr Punch]

Is that it?

You started the comparison by posting those sites in the first place, so I was looking forward to your opinions. Doesn't look like I'm gonna be so lucky.

[unkokusai]

I was looking forward to your opinions.




I thought I already gave you my opinion when I pointed out that there is racism and discrimination everywhere. (remember?)



Live wherever you want but don't be, in your own words, "silly."

[SimonM]

Car-Fu for the win, try to pull guard on a Subaru and see where that gets you !

Mas Oyama once punched one of those to death. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Mas Oyama once punched one of those to death. :p

And it wasn't one of these new fangled crumple zone cars neither, oh no, it was a freaking 70's car !!

[Old Noob]

And it wasn't one of these new fangled crumple zone cars neither, oh no, it was a freaking 70's car !!

I heard it was a 71 Cadillac and not a Subaru.

[SoCo KungFu]

I can't really speak for your situation Punch. I just can say that I personally feel I have not been affected by racism in Japan. There could be a few reasons for this but it'd just be speculating.

For one I wasn't nearly as reliant on the Japanese social structure as you are since I am military. And US has a pretty good SOFA with Japan.

It could have been location. I was in Okinawa. Its got its own cultural climate there. That may have had something to do with it. That and foreigners are common place there.

I don't know. I can just say that I didn't have your experience there in this regard. The other stuff though about walking free at night, yeah I know exactly what you mean there.

Funny little bit of irony though. Knife attack....you won't find steel swords in Japan. At least not Okinawa. Go to the MA supply, all the swords are die cast metal. Although that being said I never had any issues when ordering my Combat Steel Double Broadswords (http://www.martialartsmart.net/45-67cs30.html)

[Pork Chop]

I can't really speak for your situation Punch. I just can say that I personally feel I have not been affected by racism in Japan. There could be a few reasons for this but it'd just be speculating.

For one I wasn't nearly as reliant on the Japanese social structure as you are since I am military. And US has a pretty good SOFA with Japan.

It could have been location. I was in Okinawa. Its got its own cultural climate there. That may have had something to do with it. That and foreigners are common place there.


Umm
Racism in Okinawa's some of the worst racism in Japan.
It's bad around any area near a military base.
http://www.debito.org

I was just in Okinawa last year.
Wasn't allowed in a karaoke place coz I'm white.
Wasn't allowed to get gas at a gas station because I'm white.
Wasn't allowed in at least one store coz i'm white.
Wasn't allowed in countless bars coz i'm white.
I speak Japanese pretty well and was pleading my case in each instance, but in each case it was policy, not even personal dislike by a particular employee.

If you only go off base once in a while, granted you're not going to see it as much but if you knew what Okinawa was like before 95 and the first major rape, I doubt you'd have any warm fuzzies about it now. It's gotten worse still since 2005.

That being said, I'm still going back in September.

[Mr Punch]

I can't really speak for your situation Punch. I just can say that I personally feel I have not been affected by racism in Japan.
Well, it's still a nice place to live in the main. Ironically, I don' t feel affected by the racism: I like my job, but give me another few years doing the same job with ZERO chance of promotion, self-improvement (even assessment or research opportunities), pay rise, bonuses, etc, yet still having the accountability... and I may well do...


That and foreigners are common place there.They are pretty much all over Kanto now, so I don't think that's it, though doubtless it's contributing to attitudes changing.

I do still remember 'No Gaijin', 'No Whites' signs on some bars though, and well after that was legislated against. Nowadays you only really hear of foreigners getting refused in some of the sex industry places with any regularity, though some of my friends have been refused car rental (even with all their papers in place), entry into spas (even with no tattoos) and even a gym, not to mention frequent 'no foreigners' notes to be found on real estate.

Plus one of my friends whose (legitimate and within date) visa was summarily ripped from his passport when he was leaving the country so he couldn't get back in and lost his job. No explanation and when he appealed on returning he was told that yes the guy had been wrong but no they weren't going to do anything about it. No explanation, his assumption is it was because he is black.

[Mr Punch]

BTW, as a somewhat surreal footnote, the most immediate action that has so far been taken in the aftermath of Akihabara, is the Pedestrian Only Day has been banned. :rolleyes:

The citizens of Akihabara should think themselves lucky that they still have Sundays, and the freedom to rent trucks! :D

[unkokusai]

BTW, as a somewhat surreal footnote, the most immediate action that has so far been taken in the aftermath of Akihabara, is the Pedestrian Only Day has been banned. :rolleyes:


It may come back some time in July. Anyway, taking some time to consider the security of the area and if the authorities can be confident about ensuring the safety of all the people there in the event there is another such incident (copycat crime?) doesn't seem so unreasonable to me.

[Mr Punch]

Anyway, taking some time to consider the security of the area and if the authorities can be confident about ensuring the safety of all the people there in the event there is another such incident (copycat crime?) doesn't seem so unreasonable to me.A copycat crime in the same area? Possible I suppose.

Or they could just drive into Shibuya's Senta-gai, any of the Pedestrian Only Days in Shinjuku, or any other of the major cities that have them... or if they wanted to hit a primarily otaku area there's always Nakano Broadway... the bridge at Meijijingumae (although that'd be harder to get to... but hey, they're no bollards at either end of Takesh ita Dori either...) or just go back to the still-just-as-popular (but now with increased population density since according to NHK news the same number of people are now crammed onto the normal pavements...).

Nah, it's a typical response of wanting to be seen to do something without actually doing anything. And no, I'm not saying that that kind of reaction is limited to Japan.

[unkokusai]

Nah, it's a typical response of wanting to be seen to do something without actually doing anything.




Thank goodness there is someone like you to pass judgement and provide all the answers then.

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, it's the human condition... met humans haven't you Unk? They're kind of like you but they judge people... oh wait a minute... oh snap! :p

Be a terrible thing if people expressed an opinion, especially on an emotive subject that partly affects us all eh?

I know my place, I'll shut up now.

:D

Maybe.

[Mr Punch]

So Mr Kusai, what do you think would be sensible knife laws?

And how would you endeavor to protect the public from such future attacks?

[unkokusai]

So Mr Kusai, what do you think would be sensible knife laws?

And how would you endeavor to protect the public from such future attacks?


Dunno. My training is not in policing or criminal justice. That's why my first reaction isn't to immediately assume I know better than people who are charged with keeping the public safe. I guess I missed out on whatever emotional damage you suffered as a teenager that makes you feel so insecure in the face of authority that you are compelled to hide behind a knee-jerk opposition to anything that represents power or responsibility that you can't personally control. However, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to put a hold on the exact kind of gathering of large numbers of people in the area that made it possible to hurt lots of people in little time until security there can be improved somehow. Maybe that will mean more police patrols during times of high traffic in the area, maybe it will mean installing conspicuous surveilance equipment around the area, maybe it will mean organizing vendors and residents in the area to watch out for each other in some fashion. I reckon there are lots of possible courses of action, but I'm not so intimidated by 'da man' that I will automatically scoff at any and every thing the authorities might propose or enact.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No such thing as "sensible knife laws".
What's next, sensible stick laws?
Sensible car laws?
Sensible chop stick laws?

To me, what got me about this rampage was the fact that the killer didn't NEED a gun, also the effectiveness of a edged weapon VS multiple targets.

[Mr Punch]

I guess I missed out on whatever emotional damage you suffered as a teenager that makes you feel so insecure in the face of authority that you are compelled to hide behind a knee-jerk opposition to anything that represents power or responsibility that you can't personally control.LOL, and I missed out on the emotional damage you suffered as a teenager that makes you give out cod psychology like that...


However, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to put a hold on the exact kind of gathering of large numbers of people in the area that made it possible to hurt lots of people in little time until security there can be improved somehow. If that makes sense the police should stop the vast numbers of people who are thronging the area to leave votive offerings of drinks and flowers then, right?


Maybe that will mean more police patrols during times of high traffic in the area, maybe it will mean installing conspicuous surveilance equipment around the area, maybe it will mean organizing vendors and residents in the area to watch out for each other in some fashion. Those are probably good ideas and I hope that they're being looked into too.


...but I'm not so intimidated by 'da man' that I will automatically scoff at any and every thing the authorities might propose or enact.LOL, it really is very strange to extrapolate that, but hey, you're obviously having fun.

Thanks for your answer.

[Mr Punch]

No such thing as "sensible knife laws".
What's next, sensible stick laws?
Sensible car laws?
Sensible chop stick laws?So, what you're suggesting is everyone should be allowed to carry whatever they want?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, what you're suggesting is everyone should be allowed to carry whatever they want?

Because its a case of either/or right?
Either its the wild, wild west or its Shangri-la?
Only a Sith believes in absolutes !!
LOL !

On a serious note, the issue is NOT the wepons and their availibility, as this tragic case shows, its the CAUSE of it that has to be dealt with, what drives someone to do this , or a Columbine or a Texas Tower or a Green River.

Banning the tools is a superficial solution to a very deep problem.

[SoCo KungFu]

Umm
Racism in Okinawa's some of the worst racism in Japan.
It's bad around any area near a military base.
http://www.debito.org

I was just in Okinawa last year.
Wasn't allowed in a karaoke place coz I'm white.
Wasn't allowed to get gas at a gas station because I'm white.
Wasn't allowed in at least one store coz i'm white.
Wasn't allowed in countless bars coz i'm white.
I speak Japanese pretty well and was pleading my case in each instance, but in each case it was policy, not even personal dislike by a particular employee.

If you only go off base once in a while, granted you're not going to see it as much but if you knew what Okinawa was like before 95 and the first major rape, I doubt you'd have any warm fuzzies about it now. It's gotten worse still since 2005.

That being said, I'm still going back in September.

Dunno...I can only speak for my experiences. In the four years I lived there...

I got into any karaoke place I wished

Received gas from numerous places around Kadena, Mihama (i think that's the name) and Naha. Never had so much as an off look. In fact its the only place I ever experienced where they actually did all the work for me

I was allowed in every store/restaurant I stepped up too. My favorite is the Ramen shop in Chatan by the seaside bowl and arcade. And Fab...all you can eat curry. Soooo much better than Cocoichiban. And I heard they opened up a couple Yoshinoiya here in the US too. Yummmm!

Not only have I gone in any bar I wished but was actually friends with a few of the owners and DJ's. I got to know some of the bands in the area. For example Mongol 800.

I was welcomed and trained in a couple different dojos while there. A number of my friends as well.

I got friends that played on the local Chatan baseball team. We had regular games with the hockey team in Naha....believe it or not they got a pretty kickin hockey team...and football team too (American football).

I can't say more than that. I didn't stay on the base. I in fact did everything I could to get AWAY from that place :D

Some of my best friends are Okinawan. I'm sorry you had such negative experiences. I can't say that I experienced any of that. And I went anywhere and everywhere on that island between Okuma and Naha....

By the way there is a really awesome health spa/ steam house out there. I'll see if I can dig up the name. It was really affordable too!

[Pork Chop]

My girl's from Ishigaki and I speak Hogen (Uchinaguchi) - want to learn Ishigaki/Yaeyama hogen.

I had problems with the gas station in Okinawa city south of Goya Jiujiro (where the old blue bridge was). The attendant just played clueless. Refused yen and credit card.

I wasn't allowed in certain stores in Ameku (Naha).

I wasn't allowed in karaoke spots in Nago and Ginowan. I think there was another place in Gushikawa as well. I had a link for a blogger who was doing JET in Okinawa that ran into the same experience, complete with pictures of the place so you could know where I'm talking about; but I can't find the site anymore.

I wasn't allowed in any bar in Matsuyama, in addition to being told "no" at a bunch of places within walking distance of Kokusai doori. Almost punched the guy at the counter at Paraiso when he tried to talk trash hayaguchi (fast talking) & laughing at me till I pointed out that it was his mistake, not mine ("san yen" DOES sound like a ridiculous concert ticket price; unless you really want 3 little aluminum coins).

Thanks for the heads up on the Ramen shop & the all-you can eat curry (Fab, in chatan?).
Chatan was one of the few areas that was pretty universally cool to me.
There's an awesome karaoke place just south of Mihama and the ferris wheel that's the coolest karaoke places I've ever been.
That being said, they still wouldn't let Americans pay by credit card in the San A grocery store, eventhough they had "Visa" stickers right there on the register.

I'll see if i can find Mongol 800, thanks again. I had a lot of friends who were DJs, bouncers, and/or hosts in the old Pyramid days, but now Pyramid's a parking lot and all the bars out Gate 2 are complete dives (the only places I was allowed in).

There's an onsen somewhere north of Sunabe (forget exact locale).
Tried to make reservations to stay there for a day and they told me "no".
Girl I was hanging with at the time tried as well and as soon as she mentioned me, they wouldn't let her; she's Okinawan from Ginowan btw.
If you could get me in there, or find another place, I'd really appreciate it.

North of Nago, on the way to the aquarium, they tried to confiscate my last working credit card - my other ones shut off eventhough I called each one up and explicitly told them I'd be in Japan & not to stop payment. On the phone with the credit card company for the card the gas station tried to confiscate and asked them about it, for this particular card they said they'd never even rejected the purchase, let alone asked them to hold it.

Don't get me wrong.
I love Okinawa.
I still consider it my home eventhough last year was my first time there in 10 years.
I do Kenjinkai (Prefecture Cultural Society) for Okinawa here in the States, as well as Eisa, and some Sanshin/Samisen - taking a break right now, but plans to get back to it in august.
I got tons of friends from there, a lot still living there.
But on the whole, they are nowhere near as friendly as they used to be.
When I was 16 over there, I didn't have to pay for anything (cover charges, drinks, and often food) and I think I was only kicked out of one place in Matsuyama - private party.

[SimonM]

I have a story to tell:

It was spring festival 06 and I was in Hangzhou.

Specifically it was spring festival 06 and it was night time and I was in Hangzhou with a trunk full of Longquan swords having just disembarked an evening bus from Longquan.

I went to several hotels. Half of them claimed to be full. The other half said they could not have foreigners on the premeses. I later learned that this was hogwash. As of several years back any properly licensed hotel in China can host foreigners as well as Chinese nationals.

So there are three options: 1) the hotels I went to that refused a "foreign guest" were all operating without licenses and didn't want to risk police notice.

2) the hotels I went to were all full and the clerks felt they could save face by claiming that they were not allowed to admit waiguoren.

3) the desk attendants were racist and this was a convenient excuse to get the filthy foreigner out of her hotel.

East asia hasn't experienced the same backlash against racism that western europe and north america have. This certainly does not mean that racists are even the majority of the population. It just means that people who chose to act racistly can do so with some impunity that we are not accustomed to. And although people of african descent get it worst, people of european ancestry are subject to that racism at times.

Again, YMMV. If you don't happen to get the racist bouncer / desk clerk / cashier / maitre'd / etc. when you go out you may never notice.

Doesn't mean it isn't there.

[SoCo KungFu]

Chatan is pretty easy cuz its stuck right in the middle of the 3 big bases. I still preferred hangin in Naha though. That or really most of the time I'd spend either at my ex's place out near Gushikawa. Favorite dive spot was Meida and Zanpa wasn't bad either. Back before the JP's started crackin down we'd go out to Ikei and watch the locals drift. Tropical beach in my opinion is the best "sandy" beach, and they got all the grills and they never said anything to us about open bottles or anything there. But swimming isn't as fun...I just don't dig the whole net thing there.

Pyramid, man sorry to say but I think pretty much that entire strip there was trash. Except maybe Club Red and Good Times. But when I went out I typically tried to get as far away from that area as possible. So typically that meant Naha. I'm not sure what scene you're into. Olays is prob the best bar there. They got drinks, food, pool, performers and a karaoke room. And all the staff were mega cool. I used to kinda know the owner of Hinotoma. Not well, mostly through my DJ friends. But I never had to pay to get in and drinks were pretty much free. I never drank much though so didn't really matter. And underneath it is a pretty good (expensive though) food joint. Got some good noodles. I'm not sure now but at the time B Greens wasn't too bad. I'm not so much into that kinda club though. But I would say go there over the ones on the strip and stay away from Slums. The only good thing about Slums...it kept the attention off Olays.

Anyways, yeah that Ramen shop though...you gotta get their spicy jiamen (sp?). Oh that stuff is awesome, I'd eat it in the summer I didn't care. And there is a pretty good chinese place up on 58 near Expo Park. Oh near the lighthouse, really good Izakaiya but its hard to find. Dunno the name, but its like right in the middle of those lil farms around the resort hotels. Its like next to the hotel that has the little chapel there that they use for weddings and stuff.If I remember right they have a brewery in back too and do up their own awamori. I think the turn in was down the street from that big snack shop. Dang I miss those little sweet potato cakes.....

Fab is along Sunabe. There used to be one by the golf course on I think it was 328? But they closed down. But the one on Sunabe is better anyways cuz they got outside seating too that overlooks the water. Plus below them is a surf shop.

Oh...go down 58 like your going to Naha. Get on that road that is in front of Jusco. The one parallel to 58. There is a little white restaurant. Its misleading cuz the name is Club something or other. Its along the street kinda down were all the night vendors are at. They have some freakin awesome jerk chicken.

I'll see if I can figure out the name of the onsen we went to. I might not be able. That requires me to open lines of communication with my ex-fiance....

Shame about kokusai....I never had any trouble there. Some of those clubs there though are "hostess" clubs. That might be why you couldn't get in some. And some of those aren't exactly legal anyways. What do they call it, "4 Course?" The only legit nightclubs out there I knew of that flat out refused foreigners was Club 21, but that is on 58. And interesting enough, club American. I dunno maybe I just knew the right people. As the clubs I went to tended to be the ones my friends were working since I just went to hang more than to drink. I spent a lot of time loitering now that I think about it.....

[Pork Chop]

Ikei jima was my favorite place to go surfing, but it was so far away we only went once or twice.
Zanpa was one of my favorite hang out spots to just go chill.
Tropical Beach = Ginowan convention center beach right? I always loved that place. Had some friends that lived a couple miles away and used to sleep on that beach after late nights out, until their restaurant opened up around 11. Their's was the only Chinese restaurant I used to eat at when I lived there; eventhough I had classmates working at Genghis Khan's.

Believe it or not, Pyramid used to be the type of place you dressed up to go to. It just gradually went further and further down hill, starting in 94 & getting worse until it got knocked down.
For even higher end there was Zavarez, until someone went apesh!t, broke a bunch of stuff and got Americans banned from there. I think Zavarez is closed now, i was in the same building this last year - went to an 80s retro club and later tried to go to a 70s funk club but couldn't.

I don't think I recognized a single club you mentioned from back when I lived there and don't remember any of the names of the places from last year (except maybe Club 21).
I was in high school then, so most of us hung out at Champ's; few of my classmates worked there, Applehouse, 8beat, and Mahattan's. There was another place further up 330, called Meal Hall or Showplace (I forget), they showed anime with film projectors on the wall and had cute, "normal" girls (not amejos); one of those places Americans didn't go.

That whole Koza area is now just kyabakura/snack/hostess bars filled with little wannabe yakuza.
My old regular hangout - D's Bar, down one of the side streets, is now straight up yakuza.
It was really depressing compared to how it used to be, i understand why you say it's a dump.
We rarely made it down to Naha back then, partly for money reasons, partly coz I just didn't dig the vibe, and partly because I didn't have friends there (so no guarantee of getting in anywhere).

I think it's since 9/11, but there are really a lot more military now than before; especially with all the off-base American housing projects - like in Sunabe and near Toguchi Beach (Devil's Den).
Chatan back then had no ferris wheel, no mall, only moon beach, San A, Ammo Box, and Sunset beach.
You didn't have to try so hard to avoid other Americans. LOL

IThe only "Slums" I knew was "Slum Jam" in Matsuyama. I went there for their 3 year anniversary in 96 - my buddy was performing a hip hop show. They never let me back in after that - dunno why, I kept to myself the whole night & didn't disturb anybody. It really is who you know.

Expo's near the Aquarium right? Or is it Hedo point?
I was supposed to go to Expo on a field trip for school, but it was closed at the time and we never made it out there.
This last year I was hanging out at some little family-owned coffee shop/restaurant back up in the hills near the aquarium, the view was awesome. A little girl was learning sanshin/samisen inside.

Maeda's cool. There's a little beach on the other side of it, back behind some of the sugar cane fields - we used to party there a lot in high school. This last time I went there, it almost looked like a public beach due to it being Golden Week.

There are a few golf courses - one up near Ishikawa Dam, and another pretty close to Gate 2 Street coming out Kadena. I think they're both pretty close to 329. I'm pretty confident I can find the Fab in Sunabe; there are more surf shops than there used to be, but still only so many. hehe

Jusco in Naha right? Where 58 turns into 331? The parallel street is 221. I'll see if I can find that little white restaurant down there if i have time.

I should mention that last year I wasn't hanging out with anybody who really knew the nightlife. All my friends that I spent time with were either all about their families or all about their careers, and one person in particular really didn't do a great job speaking up on my behalf when i was getting hassled. When I was a kid it was a different story, but I had a hard time tracking down any of the nightlife folks I knew back then. Having friends seems to be the key to having a good time. hehe

This year I think I'm going to be spending most of my time on Ishigaki.
I will probably only be on Okinawa main island for a few days, so I'll have to see what I'm able to fit in.

Thanks again for the heads up and sorry to anyone else for hijacking the thread.

[Royal Dragon]

The guy crashed his truck, which everybody naturally thought was an accident, then walked down the street cutting people, \


Reply]
If this had been a gun rich society, this mass killing would have just been a shooting spree.

All this proves is that psyco mass killers are going to go off the deep end and kill as many as they can with whatever tools are available...guns, or no guns.

Either way, a bunch of people would have died.

[Black Jack II]

Another case of weapon control being utter bull****.

Only one disarmed is the victim. I thought Japan already had laws against carrying a bladed weapon...:rolleyes: