Question for experienced practitioners!

[sidai-s]

Hi i am new to this thread and want to pay respect to all wingchunners here! I have been practiscing wing chun for over a year and really enjoying it and learning fast! Have been meaning to post a thread or rather a question, so here goes:

I have read many arguments on the internet on various sites on the subject of Wing chun in MMA! I am personally not a huge fan of MMA and prefer the traditional chinese kungfu internal/external hard soft approach as i feel it results in a much healthier, calmer well- rounded practitioner! Often the defence by wing chun normally states that wing chun is NOT 4 THE RING as the deadly aspects of the system would not be allowed- FAIR PLAY!!!

My question is this - Can other wing chun cocepts be used in a ring fight with the rules in place Eg. Wing Chun kicks (to knee), Bui sau blocks, Got MA, Chain puches palm strikes, elbows?? Using the opponents force against them????

And also do you think the WC stepping method if trained well can be used effectively against some1 who moves on their toes and dances about??

If wing chun truly is effective Against other arts eg BOxing Jujistu muay thai etc why arent there any WC fighters representing the style in a proffesional tournament???

[couch]

Hi i am new to this thread and want to pay respect to all wingchunners here! I have been practiscing wing chun for over a year and really enjoying it and learning fast! Have been meaning to post a thread or rather a question, so here goes:

I have read many arguments on the internet on various sites on the subject of Wing chun in MMA! I am personally not a huge fan of MMA and prefer the traditional chinese kungfu internal/external hard soft approach as i feel it results in a much healthier, calmer well- rounded practitioner! Often the defence by wing chun normally states that wing chun is NOT 4 THE RING as the deadly aspects of the system would not be allowed- FAIR PLAY!!!

My question is this - Can other wing chun cocepts be used in a ring fight with the rules in place Eg. Wing Chun kicks (to knee), Bui sau blocks, Got MA, Chain puches palm strikes, elbows?? Using the opponents force against them????

And also do you think the WC stepping method if trained well can be used effectively against some1 who moves on their toes and dances about??

If wing chun truly is effective Against other arts eg BOxing Jujistu muay thai etc why arent there any WC fighters representing the style in a proffesional tournament???

This is a common question.

It is all up to the individual. What do you want to do with YOUR Wing Chun? Do you want to train/teach/compete/do cross-country seminars, etc?

It IS an effective self-defense tool and I think that those people that say: "It's too DEADLY 4 THE RING" are just not confident with their tools. Not all WC people want to compete. So what? Not all kickboxers want to compete either. I just went to a JKD/Kickboxing seminar. More people showed up for the afternoon (kickboxing) and most were there for the cardio, etc. If you put the "cardio" kickboxers in the ring, they'd get killed. Why? No sparring/fight game. If you put a Wing Chun practitioner into a competition, they'd get killed if they didn't have a sparring/fight game.

So, again, what do you want to do with your Wing Chun? Do you want to stagnate at the Chi Sau level, or do you want to step out of your comfort zone and pressure-test your martial art?

Lastly, if you look at Phil Redmond's team...they're competing successfully with Wing Chun, as well as Alan Orr's guys. But I'm sure they'll tell you out of their entire class...only a small group wants to compete.

Best,
Kenton

[RGVWingChun]

I actually got asked to teach wing chun with a local MMA program so I'll see how that goes. I'll be starting in August...personally, I don't know how the fighters are going to react to a "traditional kung fu" style being incorporated into something that usually involves kickboxing and jiu jitsu. But I'll do what I have to do to convince them ;)

Anyways...I agree that it all depends what you want to do with your wing chun and would add that it depends how your teacher is teaching you. Some might just teach the internal aspects of the art, or simply the art side while others might focus more on the martial or fighting side of it. I was personally taught that wing chun is for fighting and for survival so I try to keep it that way. This is not to say that wing chun cannot help bring "enlightment" to one's life, but I keep it for fighting and all out combat.

Is wing chun too deadly for the ring? Well anything can be too deadly for the ring....I just saw a video in a jiu jitsu tournament where this guy got his back broken on some move...looked nasty. Kickboxing can be too deadly if you don't know when too stop. My problem with MMA fighting is that it is ENTERTAINMENT. The rules are geared so that fights can be entertaining and have a good amount of "action". Just look at the recent Kimbo fight which was a real joke, I thought, the way it ended.

For wing chun, fighting is fighting and there are no rules, but you better we willing to accept the consequences of the methods you choose to employ. There is a fight on Youtube between a bjj guy and a karate guy and the karate guy ****ed off the bjj guy by trying to gauge out his eye so the bjj guy broke his arm on the arm bar finish. You can use the principles of wing chun in any fight situation, but you cannot use every technique of wing chun in a ruled competition. Depending on what you train to do - for instance, if you train to always break the neck after executing an high palm and that comes natural to you, then you are going to feel very limited when rules are placed upon you. If you train to just strike, then you shouldn't have a problem. Again, it comes down to what you are training for....for the streets, where you might have the necessity to take a life with your techniques in a life or death situation OR for combat SPORT.

My thoughts,

Moses

[sidai-s]

This is a common question.

It is all up to the individual. What do you want to do with YOUR Wing Chun? Do you want to train/teach/compete/do cross-country seminars, etc?

It IS an effective self-defense tool and I think that those people that say: "It's too DEADLY 4 THE RING" are just not confident with their tools. Not all WC people want to compete. So what? Not all kickboxers want to compete either. I just went to a JKD/Kickboxing seminar. More people showed up for the afternoon (kickboxing) and most were there for the cardio, etc. If you put the "cardio" kickboxers in the ring, they'd get killed. Why? No sparring/fight game. If you put a Wing Chun practitioner into a competition, they'd get killed if they didn't have a sparring/fight game.

So, again, what do you want to do with your Wing Chun? Do you want to stagnate at the Chi Sau level, or do you want to step out of your comfort zone and pressure-test your martial art?

Lastly, if you look at Phil Redmond's team...they're competing successfully with Wing Chun, as well as Alan Orr's guys. But I'm sure they'll tell you out of their entire class...only a small group wants to compete.

Best,
Kenton

I guess you are right and it depends on the end goal be it competition or street defence etc. For me personally street defence would be of first priority and in order to be truly confident in my abilities i think sparring will need to be practiced!

Thanks for your comments - made much sense!

[Phil Redmond]

This is a common question.

It is all up to the individual. What do you want to do with YOUR Wing Chun? Do you want to train/teach/compete/do cross-country seminars, etc?

It IS an effective self-defense tool and I think that those people that say: "It's too DEADLY 4 THE RING" are just not confident with their tools. Not all WC people want to compete. So what? Not all kickboxers want to compete either. I just went to a JKD/Kickboxing seminar. More people showed up for the afternoon (kickboxing) and most were there for the cardio, etc. If you put the "cardio" kickboxers in the ring, they'd get killed. Why? No sparring/fight game. If you put a Wing Chun practitioner into a competition, they'd get killed if they didn't have a sparring/fight game.

So, again, what do you want to do with your Wing Chun? Do you want to stagnate at the Chi Sau level, or do you want to step out of your comfort zone and pressure-test your martial art?

Lastly, if you look at Phil Redmond's team...they're competing successfully with Wing Chun, as well as Alan Orr's guys. But I'm sure they'll tell you out of their entire class...only a small group wants to compete.

Best,
Kenton
You're absolutely right. Most people who join Traditional MA schools aren't looking to compete. There are even people who join boxing/kickboxing gyms who are there just for the cardio. Not all people have the mentality to put themselves at risk in the ring.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Don't underestimate mma fighting - it's much more than entertainment.

Let us know how you do if you get tested by some of those kickboxing/jiu jitsu guys at the new gym you'll be teaching at.

[anerlich]

I have read many arguments on the internet on various sites on the subject of Wing chun in MMA!

It's a subject difficult to avoid these days, though generally the arguments involve the same positions and statements that have been made for over a decade.


I am personally not a huge fan of MMA and prefer the traditional chinese kungfu internal/external hard soft approach as i feel it results in a much healthier, calmer well- rounded practitioner!

I'm not a huge fan of it either, though I train it once a week and BJJ 4 times a week. The culture of the MA school is much more to do with the demeanor and attitude of its students than the art being practised. The MMA/BJJ school I attend cultivates an attitude of self and mutual respect without too much testosterone. There are more than a few wing Chun "masters" and "grandmasters" whose antics, statements, and attitudes have been stupid and immature. Arguably too many Sifus have twisted the esoteric aspects of TCMA for their own ends and used them to cash in on the gullibility of impressionable westerners.

"Well-rounded" - if you don't address clinching and groundfighting, you are not "well-rounded". It is not difficult to study multiple arts these days, and if you are concerned about being "well-rounded" then you should do that.

Jiu Jitsu is known as the Arte Suave, "gentle art", as opposed to some of the more hyperbolic statements made about WC.


Often the defence by wing chun normally states that wing chun is NOT 4 THE RING as the deadly aspects of the system would not be allowed- FAIR PLAY!!!

Every style has its forbidden techniques. As others have said, some WC practitioners have been successful in the ring. As well as the academies mentioned, some of my fellow WC students have done well in kickboxing, BJJ and MMA competition.


My question is this - Can other wing chun cocepts be used in a ring fight with the rules in place Eg. Wing Chun kicks (to knee), Bui sau blocks, Got MA, Chain puches palm strikes, elbows?? Using the opponents force against them????


Jiu Jitsu is all about using the opponent's force against them. And touch reflexes. And using all four limbs independently. Many of the concepts WC claims are unique to it actually aren't.

If you think kicks to the knee should be legal in any situation other than real self-defense, I hope your medical insurance is paid up. A damaged knee can REALLY hamper your progress in martial arts and restrict your enjoyment of life in all sorts of ways. Knee reconstructions are getting better and better, but you still don't want to have one if you can avoid it. Some of the other techniques might be illegal, but IMO if you cant hit someone with a legal punch you aren't going to be able to hit them with a palm strike, finger jab or anything else.


And also do you think the WC stepping method if trained well can be used effectively against some1 who moves on their toes and dances about??

There are almost as many stepping methods in WC as there are schools, so the answer depends. But probably, if you do enough sparring with people who move on their toes and dance about. BTW, boxers usually move on the balls of their feet, not the toes.


If wing chun truly is effective Against other arts eg BOxing Jujistu muay thai etc why arent there any WC fighters representing the style in a proffesional tournament???

You have to train for the competition you are entering. In professional sport, where money is involved, and the Olympics, there are some smart people who have open minds an would use anything that would give them an edge. That they haven't embraced chi sao, dummy training and the like ought to tell you something. The argument that the sportfighting trainers are all closed minded morons who have a vested interest in keeping WC and TCMA down is basically ridiculous.

[couch]

The argument that the sportfighting trainers are all closed minded morons who have a vested interest in keeping WC and TCMA down is basically ridiculous.

Whoa! :o Never heard such a thing! What a crazy excuse, though! It makes sense in my mind that most coaches would be in favour of activities that have immediate sparring/fighting value. I think Wing Chun could be trained this way...in fact...I wonder if this is how it was trained before "Great Grandmaster of Oogilee-Googilee - go practice your form in a corner" stuff came about...hmmm...

[RGVWingChun]

You know, I attended a seminar with a member of the Gracie family (names are not being mentioned to protect the innocent here ) but I heard this member of the Gracie family explicitly say that since most people do not have short range power in MMA, it is easy to fake some punches and go into a clinch. You can imagine the smile that went all over my face because I knew that Wing Chun has short range power and feels comfortable with close range combat...when He talked about "closing the gap" and how it makes the opponent "uncomfortable" I kept thinking, that is all Chum Kiu (bridge seeking).

When it came time to practice the technique he was showing to go into the clinch, I was not a "willing" participant at first since I wanted to display the simultaneous attack and defense concepts of wing chun as well as the short range power and techniques. The practitioner was pretty impressed as I told him that distance was "home" to me.

MMA is good if you mix the right martial arts. The crew that I'm actually going to be working with consist of a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructor, a boxing coach, a muay thai instructor, a wrestling coach and myself. If it all works out, it should be a pretty interesting mixture of arts. I hope it all works out.

Moses

[Lee Chiang Po]

you know, most of the fighting systems you see in MMA fighting today are less than a hundred years old. Most are offspring to something like Jujitsu or a form of gung fu. Judo, BJJ, and most Karate were developed for compitition. And when they were developed they were cleaned up so to speak so that the techniques used could be controled for the safety of the competeters. There has never been a form of sport Wing Chun that I am aware of. If you run in a merethon race where everyone has to run on one foot, you need to be training that one foot. If you are a straight runner you are going to be seriously handicapped. Same thing with Wing Chun. I don't know that the techniques are too deadly, but I know that what we are most trained to do are the things that are usually forbidden in a sport compitition. We kick below the waiste, so that is automatically out. You have to stay away from the throat, the eyes, no knee kicks, no anything really. So then you end up with exactly the same techniques that the other guy is allowed. So then you really need to forget about Wing Chun and fight like the other guy does. Just hammer at him until you knock him down and pile on top of him. If you were to have a run in at Jake's bar it might look a little different.
Wing Chun is designed for fighting and inflicting injury to an opponent. That is what makes it so effective. It does not lend itself well to alteration for sport compitition. It is a system that is designed for the underdog so to speak. For the small, the weak, the less physical. It is designed to sort of give them a chance to defend themselves. If you alter that it will naturally lose it's definition. It will become less effective. Besides, when we talk about MMA guys we are not talking about the masses. We are talking about a bunch of guys that are like bulls. They like to fight and they seem to enjoy pounding on people. They come up against a lot of other forms of fighting and someone always takes a whipping. So why should wing chun be any different. It don't make you superman.

[anerlich]

I think Wing Chun could be trained this way...in fact...I wonder if this is how it was trained before "Great Grandmaster of Oogilee-Googilee - go practice your form in a corner" stuff came about...hmmm...

I'm sure WC can be trained this way.


most people do not have short range power in MMA, it is easy to fake some punches and go into a clinch. You can imagine the smile that went all over my face because I knew that Wing Chun has short range power and feels comfortable with close range combat

I think this is an overgeneralisation about both MMA and WC., though it is probably true much of the time. My MMA coach is very particular about obtaining clinches and tieups that negate the possibility of short hooks, elbows, headbutts and other "street" techniques.

It is true that many MMA guys do not spend much time training WC's preferred range. They want to go from boxing and kicking range straight to a clinch and work a takedown. Too many basically have no striking defense other than "rush in, take a few shots and hope that none of them do real damage." The fact that many have succeeded in any case indicates this can still be pretty effective against someone without clinch or takedown defense, even against good punchers.

But I'd also say that while WC cultivates short power, comparatively few practitioners have really developed it. And also that most WC guys are at a serious disavantage on the ground against someone who trains BJJ or MMA-style G&P unless tthey've done some themselves.

I'd have to say MT has some good short range power techniques as well. WC rightly claims this as a forte, but it doesn't have an exclusive.

I hope this venture of yours succeeds. I'd just advise you to consider this as a learning experience for you as well as the people you are instructing. Those other arts have a lot to offer.

[Mr Punch]

Wing Chun kicks (to knee), Bui sau blocks, Got MA, Chain puches palm strikes, elbows?? Using the opponents force against them????

And also do you think the WC stepping method if trained well can be used effectively against some1 who moves on their toes and dances about?? Welcome to the board.

Generally, anerlich and others have already nailed this for you, but as an exercise and to give you some examples, I'm going to give you my analysis of some of the techs you mentioned. This is my opinion based on two years of MMA training, two-three times a week, based on thai, boxing, wrestling and b/jjj (mostly j): no comps but lots and lots of full contact sparring and pushing myself to my then limits. Oh and ten years plus in chun.

Chun kicks to the knee:

Pretty useless. With bare feet (we did barefoot and boxing shoe sparring) or light shoes there's too much chance of damaging your feet (knees are pretty hard), they're too difficult to do with accuracy at full speed on a small moving target needing a specific position with any adrenaline going round.

Outside, they're mostly good in place of or with leg sweeps and trips, and they need good positional advantage got by breaking/controlling your opponent's structure first. You can work your way in to elbow range and head controls, clinches etc, and then use them to FINISH THEM [/end Mortal Kombat voice]. Not something you can pull out of a hat at will in a ring.

Biu sau blocks:

Having done wing chun for a year, have you even learnt these?!
Yeah, they work against some things. No they're not really blocks, they should all strike through. And if you think of them as blocks you'll be chasing hands which at full speed will get you eating glove with a dessert of ring floor. You can cover some movements from some fighters with a biu sau movement to be turned into a strike ASAP!

The only way you're gonna be able to find out about this (as with anything) is by practising it full contact against other stylists.

Got ma

Don't think we have that term in the lines I've practised in. What is it?

Chain punches

1) These are a beginners' exercise. Anyone trying to use them against someone fighting back is going to get a rude awakening, followed again, by an even ruder enforced sleeping!
2) The principles this practice reinforce include always hitting again, being prepared to hit with either hand at any time without compromising your structure, controlling the centre and blasting through weak guards (said with reservation... the control is with the dropping hand, making way for the punch) etc... are very useful in the ring same as anywhere.
3) Wing chun's power punches, no matter what energy (crushing, penetrative, lifting or whatever) come from turning in your horse. Chain punching more than two or at best three times does not allow for this. Repeat: chain punching is an exercise in principles not a combination of techniques.

Palm strikes

Of course. Watch Pancrase, watch Bas Rutten, watch Sumo...

Elbows

Of course. IMO chun elbows are the best... maybe second best to thai. Of course I haven't experienced all those mantis styles and whatever but there's less variation in elbow dynamics through the arts than in punching dynamics, due to the restrictive nature of the movement, and they're probably pretty similar. Karate elbows are mostly the suck!

There's a reason chun elbows only really come in when being taught chum kiu though: I do think chun elbows are harder to do effectively than some other styles, again down to turning in your horse.

Using you opponent's force

Pretty vague, and also pretty much universal in fighting arts.

Stepping against people 'dancing around

As anerlich said.

1) For all wing chun's bull**** unique revelation to want to finish someone quickly and efficiently every stylist wants this. There is no such thing as dancing about. That dancing about will have a lot of chunners wishing they'd practised their basic turning drills a lot more and a lot faster.
2) As far as I'm concerned, chunners can do the tango, the fandango, or friggin ballet until they're in the right range: it's the ability to root at will, in an instant (the instant of your strike's impact) and then disconnect if overwhelmed that's important. Certainly more important than scores of stepping drills and san sao/san sik.
3) The sam gwok ma and huen bo are AWWWSUMM!111!1!1LolZ.
4) Stepping backwards and forwards in fighting (both straight and off line) is an important basic concept, which for some reason in wing chun is usually changed into er... stepping forwards straight and practised in slow motion.


If wing chun truly is effective Against other arts eg BOxing Jujistu muay thai etc why arent there any WC fighters representing the style in a proffesional tournament???ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...

sorry, past my bedtime...!

[Mr Punch]

My MMA coach is very particular about obtaining clinches and tieups that negate the possibility of short hooks, elbows, headbutts and other "street" techniques...Sounds good, Andrew. Care to go into more detail? Or hit us with a link to a vid of something similar?


But I'd also say that while WC cultivates short power, comparatively few practitioners have really developed it.
...I'd have to say MT has some good short range power techniques as well. WC rightly claims this as a forte, but it doesn't have an exclusive.True. I love the demo some chunner make of boxing punches coming from the opposite doorway, looping around both fighters' ears and landing two minutes later... the Popeye school of haymakers!

Most chunners I've met have mediocre short power when demoing a one inch punch on a stationary guy's shoulder or chest, but get them to put it on the end of their extending arm in a full-speed full contact situation and they're slugging like Popeye themselves.

Boxers OTOH, have really really brutal inside/outside short range fighting from six months in.

[anerlich]

We kick below the waiste, so that is automatically out. You have to stay away from the throat, the eyes, no knee kicks, no anything really. So then you end up with exactly the same techniques that the other guy is allowed. So then you really need to forget about Wing Chun and fight like the other guy does. Just hammer at him until you knock him down and pile on top of him.

MMA and MT allow leg kicks. Depending on the rules, so are knees and maybe elbows. The other guy's "allowed" the same stuff as you whatever the situation.


Just hammer at him until you knock him down and pile on top of him.

Sounds just like WC chain punching to me. You wouldn't want to go to mount in a defense situation anyway. Kneeride maybe.


If you were to have a run in at Jake's bar it might look a little different.


I don't see how. You put the guy down ASAP and run away. In Jake's bar security will probably have grabbed you already, if you haven't run out the fire exit like you should have.


Besides, when we talk about MMA guys we are not talking about the masses. We are talking about a bunch of guys that are like bulls. They like to fight and they seem to enjoy pounding on people.

Not really. I'm 53 years old, 5'10", about 180. I find the merging of effective disciplines interesting. Except for a couple of pro fighters, the mix of people at my MMA school is at least as diverse as at WC. Except the average fitness level is probably a bit higher at MMA.


you know, most of the fighting systems you see in MMA fighting today are less than a hundred years old.

The age of a system doesn't mean zip. And they all build on earlier systems anyway. This is irrelevant. The atom bomb was only a few years old when it stopped WWII.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most chunners I've met have mediocre short power when demoing a one inch punch on a stationary guy's shoulder or chest, but get them to put it on the end of their extending arm in a full-speed full contact situation and they're slugging like Popeye themselves.

Boxers OTOH, have really really brutal inside/outside short range fighting from six months in.

There is much truth in this.

I have seen many CLAIM to have "short power" and the even "demo" it, in the air, on a pad, but rarely do you see it on a heavy bag and even less, in full contact sparring and even less, in competition/fighting.

[sidai-s]

Welcome to the board.

Generally, anerlich and others have already nailed this for you, but as an exercise and to give you some examples, I'm going to give you my analysis of some of the techs you mentioned. This is my opinion based on two years of MMA training, two-three times a week, based on thai, boxing, wrestling and b/jjj (mostly j): no comps but lots and lots of full contact sparring and pushing myself to my then limits. Oh and ten years plus in chun.

Chun kicks to the knee:

Pretty useless. With bare feet (we did barefoot and boxing shoe sparring) or light shoes there's too much chance of damaging your feet (knees are pretty hard), they're too difficult to do with accuracy at full speed on a small moving target needing a specific position with any adrenaline going round.

Outside, they're mostly good in place of or with leg sweeps and trips, and they need good positional advantage got by breaking/controlling your opponent's structure first. You can work your way in to elbow range and head controls, clinches etc, and then use them to FINISH THEM [/end Mortal Kombat voice]. Not something you can pull out of a hat at will in a ring.

Biu sau blocks:

Having done wing chun for a year, have you even learnt these?!
Yeah, they work against some things. No they're not really blocks, they should all strike through. And if you think of them as blocks you'll be chasing hands which at full speed will get you eating glove with a dessert of ring floor. You can cover some movements from some fighters with a biu sau movement to be turned into a strike ASAP!

The only way you're gonna be able to find out about this (as with anything) is by practising it full contact against other stylists.

Got ma

Don't think we have that term in the lines I've practised in. What is it?

Chain punches

1) These are a beginners' exercise. Anyone trying to use them against someone fighting back is going to get a rude awakening, followed again, by an even ruder enforced sleeping!
2) The principles this practice reinforce include always hitting again, being prepared to hit with either hand at any time without compromising your structure, controlling the centre and blasting through weak guards (said with reservation... the control is with the dropping hand, making way for the punch) etc... are very useful in the ring same as anywhere.
3) Wing chun's power punches, no matter what energy (crushing, penetrative, lifting or whatever) come from turning in your horse. Chain punching more than two or at best three times does not allow for this. Repeat: chain punching is an exercise in principles not a combination of techniques.

Palm strikes

Of course. Watch Pancrase, watch Bas Rutten, watch Sumo...

Elbows

Of course. IMO chun elbows are the best... maybe second best to thai. Of course I haven't experienced all those mantis styles and whatever but there's less variation in elbow dynamics through the arts than in punching dynamics, due to the restrictive nature of the movement, and they're probably pretty similar. Karate elbows are mostly the suck!

There's a reason chun elbows only really come in when being taught chum kiu though: I do think chun elbows are harder to do effectively than some other styles, again down to turning in your horse.

Using you opponent's force

Pretty vague, and also pretty much universal in fighting arts.

Stepping against people 'dancing around

As anerlich said.

1) For all wing chun's bull**** unique revelation to want to finish someone quickly and efficiently every stylist wants this. There is no such thing as dancing about. That dancing about will have a lot of chunners wishing they'd practised their basic turning drills a lot more and a lot faster.
2) As far as I'm concerned, chunners can do the tango, the fandango, or friggin ballet until they're in the right range: it's the ability to root at will, in an instant (the instant of your strike's impact) and then disconnect if overwhelmed that's important. Certainly more important than scores of stepping drills and san sao/san sik.
3) The sam gwok ma and huen bo are AWWWSUMM!111!1!1LolZ.
4) Stepping backwards and forwards in fighting (both straight and off line) is an important basic concept, which for some reason in wing chun is usually changed into er... stepping forwards straight and practised in slow motion.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...

sorry, past my bedtime...!

HI, Thanks for the post, very educational. By Got Ma i actually meant gwok ma or angle stance - never knew the correct spelling or pronounciation!!:o

I see where all you guys are coming from and that all arts have their advantages... Never really seen WC's close combat chi sau skills utilised in the ring though as almost everytime as soon as short range is achieved it goes to the ground!!

i feel its probably best to get a firm grounding and thorough understanding of one art and then adding from other styles..??

[HardWork8]

i feel its probably best to get a firm grounding and thorough understanding of one art and then adding from other styles..??

That would definitely be my advice to you.

A firm grounding in your art can expose you further to the combative possibilities of that art and a better understanding of any shortcomings.

That way, you will better be able to decide on the other style you need to practice to compliment or further your training.

Who knows, may be you will choose to compliment your WC by practicing another kung fu style that will help you "fill in the gaps".

[Ultimatewingchun]

You know, I attended a seminar with a member of the Gracie family (names are not being mentioned to protect the innocent here ) but I heard this member of the Gracie family explicitly say that since most people do not have short range power in MMA, it is easy to fake some punches and go into a clinch. You can imagine the smile that went all over my face because I knew that Wing Chun has short range power and feels comfortable with close range combat...when He talked about "closing the gap" and how it makes the opponent "uncomfortable" I kept thinking, that is all Chum Kiu (bridge seeking).

When it came time to practice the technique he was showing to go into the clinch, I was not a "willing" participant at first since I wanted to display the simultaneous attack and defense concepts of wing chun as well as the short range power and techniques. The practitioner was pretty impressed as I told him that distance was "home" to me.

MMA is good if you mix the right martial arts. The crew that I'm actually going to be working with consist of a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructor, a boxing coach, a muay thai instructor, a wrestling coach and myself. If it all works out, it should be a pretty interesting mixture of arts. I hope it all works out.

Moses


***I'VE been saying something very similar on this forum for years now, Moses...because I think wing chun has much to contribute within an all-out, nhb, mma setting at the very close quarter standup striking range. It's not the end-all and be-all...ie.- I'm a big believer in knowing how to wrestle/grapple in the clinch and on the ground (including developing sprawling skills)...

but wing chun can provide some very unpleasant surprises to the pure grappler type who just thinks he can fake (or throw) a punch or two and then successfully clinch or shoot for the legs.

[Graychuan]

You know, I attended a seminar with a member of the Gracie family (names are not being mentioned to protect the innocent here ) but I heard this member of the Gracie family explicitly say that since most people do not have short range power in MMA, it is easy to fake some punches and go into a clinch. You can imagine the smile that went all over my face because I knew that Wing Chun has short range power and feels comfortable with close range combat...when He talked about "closing the gap" and how it makes the opponent "uncomfortable" I kept thinking, that is all Chum Kiu (bridge seeking).

When it came time to practice the technique he was showing to go into the clinch, I was not a "willing" participant at first since I wanted to display the simultaneous attack and defense concepts of wing chun as well as the short range power and techniques. The practitioner was pretty impressed as I told him that distance was "home" to me.

MMA is good if you mix the right martial arts. The crew that I'm actually going to be working with consist of a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructor, a boxing coach, a muay thai instructor, a wrestling coach and myself. If it all works out, it should be a pretty interesting mixture of arts. I hope it all works out.

Moses


Thanks for this, Moses.

Also for mr Ultimatewingchun....



***I'VE been saying something very similar on this forum for years now, Moses...because I think wing chun has much to contribute within an all-out, nhb, mma setting at the very close quarter standup striking range. It's not the end-all and be-all...ie.- I'm a big believer in knowing how to wrestle/grapple in the clinch and on the ground (including developing sprawling skills)...

but wing chun can provide some very unpleasant surprises to the pure grappler type who just thinks he can fake (or throw) a punch or two and then successfully clinch or shoot for the legs.

This was a good followup. Not that you need my approval but considering my 'spirited' debates with you I am on the same page with you here.
:D

[SAAMAG]

HI, Thanks for the post, very educational. By Got Ma i actually meant gwok ma or angle stance - never knew the correct spelling or pronounciation!!:o
Bracing stance, which is a good way to let an attack be nuetralized while still be grounded enough to counter.



I see where all you guys are coming from and that all arts have their advantages... Never really seen WC's close combat chi sau skills utilised in the ring though as almost everytime as soon as short range is achieved it goes to the ground!!

i feel its probably best to get a firm grounding and thorough understanding of one art and then adding from other styles..??

The area that wing chun specializes in only exists for seconds, if that. Most people don't stay in the bridging range and will almost immediately go to a standing clinch and/or takedown. For most people, more time will either be spent in the outer striking ranges or very close ranges like the grappling scenarios.

You just have to know when to move from one area of expertise to another--and not be trapped (no pun intended) into thinking that one system has all the answers. Wing chun works, no doubt...you just have to know that it's a tool like everything else, and every tool has a specific purpose. Use the right tool for the right job...and you'll be good.

[anerlich]

Sounds good, Andrew. Care to go into more detail? Or hit us with a link to a vid of something similar?

Not an easy thing to encapsulate in a few sentences, but:

Good head positioning in the clinch can negate many striking options. Basically if your head is glued to his body, his options to hit you with any authority are limited. If you can hide your head, you can hide your eyes and throat. OTOH, if you are controlling HIS head, per the MT plum or similar, you can put him in position to expose targets.

Astute clinch positioning can also rob him of the structure he needs to strike. If he's off balance, bent forward, arched back, up on his toes or has his spine bent or twisted, or if he is carrying your bodyweight as well as his, or he's been lifted off the ground, he's going to have a great deal of trouble doing that deadly one inch punch.

Tying up his limbs with yours can take away his ability to use his weapons. Most of the basic tie ups with good head position mean he can only strike with little power to relatively inconsequential targets.

We hear all the time about the importance of correct structure to WC power generation - especially short power. If you can take away that structure and/or the space and targets to use it, you also take away the power.

In the guard, similar things are possible. You usually want him either on open guard right away from you where you can kick the crap out of him if he gets too close, or right in tight with one limb and the head controlled (e.g the classic overhook one arm, head on that side (so he can't hit it with the free hand)next to his (avoiding butts) and hips out that side (so he can't get his arm out of the overhook by posting), pulling his head down with your other hand, or using it to parry shots he takes at your side with his free hand. Get it in the crook of his elbow and he can't do much.

MY MMA teacher also teaches a fairly simple guard pass, with a window of risk for triangles and armbars, which ends up with the guy that was in guard twisted up like a pretzel, all four limbs under control or unable to be used effectively, leaving you with a direct power shot at his face. Nitey night if you ever get caught here.

John Will (bjj.com.au) has developed some simple but effective strategies to allow a grappler to close on a striker without taking serious damage. While I've only seen vids and read articles on Keysi, they seem to do similar things, but to get in range to employ close range elbows and headbutts, etc., rather than grapple.

A lot of these things have application to WC. WC (generally) is more about control for a short period and hitting the guy with a flurry of blows while he is not in a position to parry, retaliate or retreat, MMA/grappling is about getting greater control for a longer period over the person's body, to apply either blows or submission holds. Both strategies are applicable to different defense situations, with some overlap.

BTW, I do believe in short power. My first instructor has an excellent one inch punch and could deliver serious short power from just about anywhere. It probably didn't hurt that he had a nidan in goju karate before taking up WC, and used to do quite a lot of breaking. He could break 8 roof tiles with a backfist, shutting up the "backfists have no power" crowd.

But this is not the norm in WC in my experience.

[Lee Chiang Po]

__________________
"Good head positioning in the clinch can negate many striking options. Basically if your head is glued to his body, his options to hit you with any authority are limited. If you can hide your head, you can hide your eyes and throat. OTOH, if you are controlling HIS head, per the MT plum or similar, you can put him in position to expose targets.

Astute clinch positioning can also rob him of the structure he needs to strike. If he's off balance, bent forward, arched back, up on his toes or has his spine bent or twisted, or if he is carrying your bodyweight as well as his, or he's been lifted off the ground, he's going to have a great deal of trouble doing that deadly one inch punch.

Tying up his limbs with yours can take away his ability to use his weapons. Most of the basic tie ups with good head position mean he can only strike with little power to relatively inconsequential targets.

We hear all the time about the importance of correct structure to WC power generation - especially short power. If you can take away that structure and/or the space and targets to use it, you also take away the power.

In the guard, similar things are possible. You usually want him either on open guard right away from you where you can kick the crap out of him if he gets too close, or right in tight with one limb and the head controlled (e.g the classic overhook one arm, head on that side (so he can't hit it with the free hand)next to his (avoiding butts) and hips out that side (so he can't get his arm out of the overhook by posting), pulling his head down with your other hand, or using it to parry shots he takes at your side with his free hand. Get it in the crook of his elbow and he can't do much.

MY MMA teacher also teaches a fairly simple guard pass, with a window of risk for triangles and armbars, which ends up with the guy that was in guard twisted up like a pretzel, all four limbs under control or unable to be used effectively, leaving you with a direct power shot at his face. Nitey night if you ever get caught here.

John Will (bjj.com.au) has developed some simple but effective strategies to allow a grappler to close on a striker without taking serious damage. While I've only seen vids and read articles on Keysi, they seem to do similar things, but to get in range to employ close range elbows and headbutts, etc., rather than grapple.

A lot of these things have application to WC. WC (generally) is more about control for a short period and hitting the guy with a flurry of blows while he is not in a position to parry, retaliate or retreat, MMA/grappling is about getting greater control for a longer period over the person's body, to apply either blows or submission holds. Both strategies are applicable to different defense situations, with some overlap.

BTW, I do believe in short power. My first instructor has an excellent one inch punch and could deliver serious short power from just about anywhere. It probably didn't hurt that he had a nidan in goju karate before taking up WC, and used to do quite a lot of breaking. He could break 8 roof tiles with a backfist, shutting up the "backfists have no power" crowd.

But this is not the norm in WC in my experience.


anerlich
-------------------------------
I watch UFC all the time. Watching it tonight. Some of these guys are reputed to have some serious MA skills. However, you sure couldn't prove it by the way they are fighting. What name to you fight under. I will be sure to watch you.

[anerlich]

anerlich
-------------------------------
I watch UFC all the time. Watching it tonight. Some of these guys are reputed to have some serious MA skills. However, you sure couldn't prove it by the way they are fighting. What name to you fight under. I will be sure to watch you.

You quoted my post in full for some reason. Thought it worth repeating and couldn't find anything in it to refute, I gather. :cool:


I watch UFC all the time.

Great. We can never have too many armchair experts. :rolleyes:

Since you seem to have formed the incorrect impression (your earlier post) that kicks below the waist aren't allowed in MMA, which watching the UFC would refute fairly quickly, I can only conclude either that that statement is a lie or that your powers of observation are abysmal or you are the victim of severe cognitive dissonance resulting from your own prejudices. In any case, your judgements about the skill of the partcipants are thus of little value.

Why do you regularly watch something you seem to think is crap? Can't enjoy yourself without having something or someone to criticise and belittle? Need to pull others down to lift yourself up? The TCMA way, ain't it cool?


What name to you fight under. I will be sure to watch you.

I won't be fighting in the next UFC (they don't have a Senior IV division), so you'll have to save your contempt for someone else. Or bottle it up - let it temper that winning attitude.

[Mr Punch]

__________________
"Good head positioning in the clinch can negate many striking options...

... It probably didn't hurt that he had a nidan in goju karate before taking up WC, and used to do quite a lot of breaking. He could break 8 roof tiles with a backfist, shutting up the "backfists have no power" crowd.

But this is not the norm in WC in my experience.

-------------------------------
I watch UFC all the time. Watching it tonight. Some of these guys are reputed to have some serious MA skills. However, you sure couldn't prove it by the way they are fighting. What name to you fight under. I will be sure to watch you.Great post Lee, but I don't understand the relevance or point of your last paragraph... What do you mean? :confused: :p :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great post Lee, but I don't understand the relevance or point of your last paragraph... What do you mean? :confused: :p :D

Most of that post was quoting anerlich, only the end was Lee.

[Mr Punch]

Most of that post was quoting anerlich, only the end was Lee.Well spotted. Do they have sarcasm in Canada, or has your brain just frozen! :p

[couch]

Well spotted. Do they have sarcasm in Canada, or has your brain just frozen! :p

It's hard to think when you live in an igloo!

[Lee Chiang Po]

What name to you fight under. I will be sure to watch you.

I won't be fighting in the next UFC (they don't have a Senior IV division), so you'll have to save your contempt for someone else. Or bottle it up - let it temper that winning attitude.
----------------------------

Actually, I did not mean to quote the entire posting. I am not really that fluent with the computer. However, I was led to believe this individual was actually a UFC fighter from the way he talks. What ever your name is, I do not have contempt for you. I just find you contemptuous, rude and arrogant. This happens to some people when they are behind a keyboard.

[anerlich]

However, I was led to believe this individual was actually a UFC fighter from the way he talks.

You have a comprehension issue. I said I trained MMA once a week. Mr Punch asked me a question which I answered. This is stuff I have learned through regular training. I never claimed to be a UFC competitor, MMA expert or equivalent. I strongly doubt anyone else got that impression (and doubt you did either, you're just talking out of your a$$).

I was led to beleive you're actually a sad, envious old man with a chip on his shoulder by the way you talk, FWIW.


What ever your name is, I do not have contempt for you. I just find you contemptuous, rude and arrogant.

This from someone who insults the abilities of UFC fighters, says they're all bulls, etc etc. Pot, kettle, black!


This happens to some people when they are behind a keyboard.

Go to the mirror before you criticise the posting behaviour of others.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well spotted. Do they have sarcasm in Canada, or has your brain just frozen! :p

Bite me.


It's hard to think when you live in an igloo!

Suck it, suck it long and suck it hard.

:p

[bennyvt]

No matter what to say all UFC fighters are crap is not right. While some are enot very "entertaning" they all have some degree of competence in what they do. I know I wouldn't want to fight a Chuck liddel or Sukuraba ( my favourite, strange for a VT guy), if only for the fact they are highly well trained athletes and I would be having a heart attack after 3mins, lol:p.

[Liddel]

they all have some degree of competence in what they do.

Benny i think its fair to say that alot of the guys in UFC have great skills.

If anyone disagrees then they generally have a limited opinoin in my view.

When we watch the myriad of VT clips out there more often than not it looks lack luster mainly IMO because Guys of similar levels using the same style can styfle each other and make things looks less technical and skilled, things get messy - more than the messy reality of fighting anyway.

IMHO its the same with UFC, similar levels of skill - conditioning - weight classes -

All these and more make it tough to really get a sence of how good some of these guys actually are.

More often than not a good spectacle will arise from a good match up.

If you saw anyone of these guys training against a 'hobby' MMA guy or even a NHB match against your Sifu i think the skill difference would be obvious.

IMO theres so much more to UFC now than actual fighting ...

Conditioning and even more important implementing a game plan is often what makes or breaks fighters.

Im still in awe of someone like Randy Couture, like when he fought Tim Silvia.
His hands improved big time you woulda thought him a unorthodox boxer not a wrestler by the way he bobbed and weaved and chipped away at Silvia.
He stood in the pocket and picked him apart IMO.

His ability to change, adapt, assimilate fighting skills to get a job done is to be admired by other fighters. Including me.

The biggest thing i take away from being an armchair fan of UFC is that one of the best factors to winning a fight is making the oponnent work in your game parameters. For a VT guy thats up close and personal.

You wont see these guys killing people in the streets with Bui Jee Lee Chiang Po LOL.

But regardless they have mad skillz.

DREW

[bennyvt]

I totally agree. (how cool is randy 40 something and he still kicks arse.)
I have loved the UFC since it started. And very true that you get two good grapplers it gets a bit boring, except sukuraba and carlos newtown. That fight in pride gave me a new found liking to the ground game, move and counter then counter and so on.
Especially now people have become accustomed to being on the ground it has totally changed. I find both sides of the debate funny, the whole, well i wont go to the ground and the ill take a few shots to get in. I have been training with a guy from work ( I work in the security industry, possible the smallest bouncer alive at 5 foot 2 inches or 165cm.) and he does shoot fighting. I found that although I had been watching UFC and other instructional videos about how to get out of things it was totally different when we went to the ground. Sort of like we would laugh at someone that said" well ive seen VT so I can do it". Without the training to use the techniques it was like, I should be doing this but now I have to tap before my arm breaks. You need the reaction as an instinct in a split second to get the escape. or a good guy is going to snap you. But I found just having someone lie on you and the smothering was weird to get used to. Also knowing when you have to tap and when you can still escape is a hard feeling to get and is only possible with training.
I have found interestingly that the main diference between BJJ and shootfighting is that shooters do things to hurt you to get the position and resist the moves being put on them were as BJJ tends to wait until the opponent makes a mistake or slows down and tends to roll and move with the movement not resist. This may be wrong but just the impression that I get.:(