1bad's fight footage/related thought

[KC Elbows]

On another thread, I razzed him about this, but it's a pretty common thing, and I would be lying if I said it never happened to me.

In this match, he reached a lot for his attacks. His opponent, whose kicks were well placed, and done in a friendly match, so not given undo pepper given the difference in skill levels.

Now, I've done the same thing(with different techniques), and usually it can be summed up as trying to fight without actually entering into the fight. Well out of range of doing one's technique, they throw it, but stop short of entering to keep clear of the range their opponent may do well, essentially staying out of the fight.

For whatever reason, while not actually in the fight, some people seem to develop the habit of trying to look like they're doing their ma, be it shuffling, stepping into stances that show something, but not what they're intended for, etc.

It's always most difficult to overcome that hesitancy when the opponent is better than you in some way. The only way I know to work around it is to just try to enter and do your technique, if you get plastered, have someone watching with enough experience to tell you what happened and some ways to deal with it, or have it videoed and view that a lot.

Still, whenever I add a new technique, I'll have to start over from scratch until the response is ingrained.

Anyone have any other helpful approaches or stories related to this?

[1bad65]

Thanks for the honest appraisal.

Yes, he was alot better than me with kicks. And I'm not used to seeing TKD kicks. Because of that I did have a hard time getting inside where I could use my hands. So I did reach alot. I do think I moved forward a good bit, especially considering I was outweighed by around 30 pounds.

Keep in mind it was standup only, not MMA sparring. Had it been MMA I would hve went for a takedown after one of his kicks missed or got caught. As it was standup only, I could not do takedowns.

One thing I do think I'm pretty good at is head movement. I only got hit solid once, and yes it was a head kick. ;)

[KC Elbows]

One thing I do think I'm pretty good at is head movement. I only got hit solid once, and yes it was a head kick. ;)

Being a friendly match, he was not throwing the pepper he would in a serious match. He clearly could have. Some of those other hits would not have been as easy to block.

On the other hand, I hear you on the removal of takedowns. In a friendly match, it's a bit dodgy to take the inside and pepper with blows without going harder than the match justifies.

I've had the advantage of, in my first school that dealt heavily with throws and in-fighting, a lot of tkd higher belts trained under my teacher in order to compensate for their inexperience in this realm, so the kicks aren't new to me, although your opponent was better than they were, imo, though that may also have been because he didn't have to deal with takedowns, and they had to expect them.

[KC Elbows]

Because of that I did have a hard time getting inside where I could use my hands.

Just my amateur opinion, but your feet are clearly capable of moving, I just think if you took that energy, paired it with applicable footwork to get into striking range, you would have more often been in striking range. I think you moved a lot, but many of those movements put no pressure on him, only kept him from knowing for sure where to attack you best, so he knew that when pressure was on, you were definitely coming in, and could save his energy for those occasions. If the pressure was on more often(or nearly always), he would not have that luxury, he'd also have to risk making the wrong move for fear that an apparent assault was "the one". Sure, you might get clobbered, but that's the risk to run.

[Drake]

It is kind of wrong to pick on someone for losing a fight, no matter how badly they did. It takes a lot to go out and fight, and it takes even more to keep fighting after you know you are going to lose. You also learn the most this way too.

[KC Elbows]

It is kind of wrong to pick on someone for losing a fight, no matter how badly they did. It takes a lot to go out and fight, and it takes even more to keep fighting after you know you are going to lose. You also learn the most this way too.

I picked on him for not entering the fight enough, then said I've done the same thing. Is he made of sugar, and is it raining? No. I think he'll be fine. Additionally, there's plenty of people who fight full contact and learn absolutely nothing from it. If he thinks I went overboard, I'm sure he can tell me, and if he doesn't agree with my amateur opinion, he'll let me know.

To top it off, most people only apply your logic to full contact matches that aren't just friendly sparring sessions. That was not a "fight", it was a friendly sparring session under a limited ruleset.

Admittedly, I made fun of Fred Ettish back in the day. I don't recall being alone, even if I felt for the guy at the same time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keep in mind it was standup only, not MMA sparring. Had it been MMA I would hve went for a takedown after one of his kicks missed or got caught. As it was standup only, I could not do takedowns.


I wouldn't try to "second guess" and add "what if's" to this.
Best to realize your stand up needs lots of work.

[Drake]

I picked on him for not entering the fight enough, then said I've done the same thing. Is he made of sugar, and is it raining? No. I think he'll be fine. Additionally, there's plenty of people who fight full contact and learn absolutely nothing from it. If he thinks I went overboard, I'm sure he can tell me, and if he doesn't agree with my amateur opinion, he'll let me know.

To top it off, most people only apply your logic to full contact matches that aren't just friendly sparring sessions. That was not a "fight", it was a friendly sparring session under a limited ruleset.

Admittedly, I made fun of Fred Ettish back in the day. I don't recall being alone, even if I felt for the guy at the same time.

Point is...picking on someone is unproductive. Explaining where they went wrong and how to get better for the next fight is.

[Egg fu young]

Video link?

[KC Elbows]

Point is...picking on someone is unproductive.

Picking on a Texan is always productive. I mean, they want to protect the border, but they are the border.

Worse still, he's from Austin, so he's basically a hippie Texan. I have to think of my country first.

However, morally speaking, you are right. Were he from any of 49 other states. Or Puerto Rico.

[1bad65]

I wouldn't try to "second guess" and add "what if's" to this.
Best to realize your stand up needs lots of work.

Most of my standup work is done with MMA rules. It's a totally different ballgame.


Oh, KC is not being rude or a jerk. Constructive criticsm is always a good thing. I'm quite used to it from my instructors already. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most of my standup work is done with MMA rules. It's a totally different ballgame.


Fine then.

[Golden Arms]

Yeah Ronin, what would YOU know about sport combat anyway ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah Ronin, what would YOU know about sport combat anyway ;)

I don't think he meant it that way and perhaps I am being dismissive.
Its just if my stand up was that poor, I would be all over it and NOT in a "mma context".

[KC Elbows]

Yeah Ronin, what would YOU know about sport combat anyway ;)

He once "interceded" in a mud wrestling match at a gentlemen's club.

He has also judged competitive sepukku; no one ever complained about his scoring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He once "interceded" in a mud wrestling match at a gentlemen's club.

He has also judged competitive sepukku; no one ever complained about his scoring.

You forget my gold medal performance in last years "fists of fury" tournament ;)

[KC Elbows]

You forget my gold medal performance in last years "fists of furry" tournament ;)


Fixed your typo. Never has a man in a lemur suit been so fierce!

[SimonM]

Please never bring up S. Ronin's furry experiences ever again. I don't want to know what those animal costume wearing freaks were doing with their fists. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Please never bring up S. Ronin's furry experiences ever again. I don't want to know what those animal costume wearing freaks were doing with their fists. ;)

Bah, virgins...

[KC Elbows]

Please never bring up S. Ronin's furry experiences ever again. I don't want to know what those animal costume wearing freaks were doing with their fists. ;)

What happens in Kevin the Kangaroo's pouch stays in Kevin the Kangaroo's pouch. Literally.

[Old Noob]

Egg fu Young asked to have the link posted. Is it already posted in another thread? If not, I second his request. Thanks.

[MasterKiller]

Most of my standup work is done with MMA rules. It's a totally different ballgame.

Only if your only defense against stand up is to take a shot. Otherwise, it ain't that different.

[1bad65]

Only if your only defense against stand up is to take a shot. Otherwise, it ain't that different.

There is clinch work. Also you can catch kicks and go for a takedown.

And people generally kick alot less when takedowns are allowed.

[MasterKiller]

There is clinch work. Also you can catch kicks and go for a takedown.

And people generally kick alot less when takedowns are allowed.

Unless you're playing tag, "kickboxing" stand up has clinch work and kick catches. Sure you modify your stances for MMA, but it's not apples and oranges. It's Valencias and Navels.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is clinch work. Also you can catch kicks and go for a takedown.

And people generally kick alot less when takedowns are allowed.

If you notice that all the best strikes in MMA come from specialized striking arts and that grapplers wanting to get better at striking cross train in those striking arts (rather than just strike in a MMA context) then perhaps you will see how incorrect your view point is.

[1bad65]

If you notice that all the best strikes in MMA come from specialized striking arts and that grapplers wanting to get better at striking cross train in those striking arts (rather than just strike in a MMA context) then perhaps you will see how incorrect your view point is.

I do. I just spar alot more under MMA rules. As I've said before, I'm a hobbyinst. And a 36 year old hobbyist. I'm not going to the gym so I can be a pro-level fighter. I do it to keep in shape and I spar to keep sharp. I'm mainly a ground guy. When I spar only stand-up, to be honest I'm usually just giving the other guy rounds.

I see it this way; I'm pretty technical on the ground, but my stand-up is just enough to get by.

[Pork Chop]

I was gonna comment on this earlier, but the earlier b!tch-fest kept me from contributing to that thread in good conscience.

I have the same problem as well - trying to engage while outside of the pocket - doing a lot of leaning and not quite having the range you need.

I understand in MMA you don't want to fight in the pocket as much because the takedown can initiate from outside of kicking range.
There's also the fear of being in the danger zone where you can get hit.

But if you want to improve that aspect of pure standup, for starters don't set.
In the clip, you set your feet when you're outside his range, he then half steps back and is way out of your range.
People usually do this because they're already thinking about throwing from too far out.
Just slowly walk your way in there - don't think about launching an attack until you're sure you're in range to throw your stuff.

If he keeps running, corner him with his back to something so he can't keep running - if he tries to sidestep to your left, angle left to cut him off, if he tries to sidestep to your right, angle to your right to cut him off.

Walk him down until he sets inside of your range.

If he tries to push kick you to keep you away, scoop it with the rear hand and sweep him or parry it to the side, step in, and punch him while he's off balance.
If he tries to round kick you to keep you away, half step away from it, scoop it with your lead and sweep him.

If you find yourself stuck at his hand range, but not close enough for your hands - either work off of kicks, feints, or counters to his punches (slip and get inside).

Once you've gotten inside I'm pretty sure you've got the technique to stay there.

PS- using a lot of head movement when in kicking range is not a good idea - eventually you'll run into the guy who times you and you'll wake up on the floor wondering what happened. Keep your slips, bobs, and weaves very small movements - sticking very close to the punch so you can close distance. All that head movement's useless if you're not using it to get in range for your own stuff.

[SAAMAG]

^^That's some good advice for anyone PC!

I call walking people down "stalking". I tend to only do it once I've tested someone a bit and know (or think I know) if I can take their best shot or not.

Stalking can sometimes get you into trouble too though, especially if the person you're fighting is a counter fighter with a good sense of distance and is able to circle and not just be backstepper. But nonetheless, it's something I tend to do naturally.

....

And 1bad...I think it's cool that you got some footage up of yourself...you're one up on most of the internet fighters because you've shown something as opposed to just talked about it. Thanks for doing that. Because no matter what people say (good or bad) it always presents a way for everyone viewing the thread to learn.

That said, and take this with a grain of salt since it's just my two cents, something else you can also try 1bad, is attack at the same time someone attacks you. Anytime someone is punching or kicking you, they're leaving something open; for example...

He jabs you overhand
He throws a cross you intercept with a side or front kick
He throws a hook and you move in with a simultaneous block and straight punch
He round kicks high you lean back and kick low

etc...etc...

Learn to capitalize on that sort of stuff and you've eliminated a lot of the "time" it takes to hit someone. It's much easier than trading shots (I.e. he punches you move or block and then counter).

Take care.

[1bad65]

That said, and take this with a grain of salt since it's just my two cents, something else you can also try 1bad, is attack at the same time someone attacks you.

My first instructor is big on that. Honest, I just can't get that concept. I understand it, but I just can't put it into action. I tend to counter punch more, which is why I do set out of range. I'm usually waiting for the other guy to come in.

As to footwork, both my instructors and the fighters I work with say I have great footwork. I do cut off the ring well, and I push guys I'm training to do that as well. Obviously this sparring was not in a ring so I did not have that option. But yes, I do know about moving horizontally in a ring to cut off your opponent and work him into a corner.


And 1bad...I think it's cool that you got some footage up of yourself...you're one up on most of the internet fighters because you've shown something as opposed to just talked about it. Thanks for doing that. Because no matter what people say (good or bad) it always presents a way for everyone viewing the thread to learn.

Thanks bro. I posted it because people asked me too. I never boasted about it. I just put it up for all to see. I knew I would get some negative reactions, as well as constructive criticism. Thanks for yours. And yes, Pork Chop gave some good critiqueing as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My first instructor is big on that. Honest, I just can't get that concept. I understand it, but I just can't put it into action. I tend to counter punch more, which is why I do set out of range. I'm usually waiting for the other guy to come in.

Think stop-hit rather than "simultaneous strike".


Putting up a video for critique ( cause in the end that's what's gonna happen) is always tricky, its an ego bruising at times, even for more experienced MA doing stuff that is "outside" the standard.
Keep at it and remember:
Chin down, breathe and relax and never, ever, be afraid to take a shot.

[SAAMAG]

Think stop-hit rather than "simultaneous strike".


Putting up a video for critique ( cause in the end that's what's gonna happen) is always tricky, its an ego bruising at times, even for more experienced MA doing stuff that is "outside" the standard.
Keep at it and remember:
Chin down, breathe and relax and never, ever, be afraid to take a shot.

Unless it's a shot from Mike Tyson, or Bas Rutten, Crocop, Fedor, and the like.

[SAAMAG]

My first instructor is big on that. Honest, I just can't get that concept. I understand it, but I just can't put it into action. I tend to counter punch more, which is why I do set out of range. I'm usually waiting for the other guy to come in.
Hmm....you can try to think of it as a way to "balance out" the attack. His yin to your yang or vice versa. Hit hits high you kick low--they balance each other out. He hooks with a right lead you duck and turn into him with a right lead hook to the solar plexus, they balance each other out. He spin kicks and you move in or kick his thigh...etc...etc...you get the idea.

It's simply a matter of finding the relations between attacks and drilling them, then applying them in a live atmosphere.

You can also think of it like the reverse polarity of magnets. Imagine that any open target is a negative polarity and your attack is a positive one. Each move he makes creates a "pull" for you to attack a particular spot.

[KC Elbows]

But if you want to improve that aspect of pure standup, for starters don't set.
In the clip, you set your feet when you're outside his range, he then half steps back and is way out of your range.
People usually do this because they're already thinking about throwing from too far out.
Just slowly walk your way in there - don't think about launching an attack until you're sure you're in range to throw your stuff.


Thanks, I think I tend to do this as well. Good info.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unless it's a shot from Mike Tyson, or Bas Rutten, Crocop, Fedor, and the like.

Actually, being afraid to take a shot will get you KO'd faster with those guys than the opposite.
Ever see those inexperienced fighters trying to strike while looking over their punches, with their heads angling away and their chins up so as to keep their faces aways from strikes and not get hit?
Doing everything wrong that can be wrong.

[KC Elbows]

Stalking can sometimes get you into trouble too though, especially if the person you're fighting is a counter fighter with a good sense of distance and is able to circle and not just be backstepper. But nonetheless, it's something I tend to do naturally.

....

And 1bad...I think it's cool that you got some footage up of yourself...you're one up on most of the internet fighters because you've shown something as opposed to just talked about it. Thanks for doing that. Because no matter what people say (good or bad) it always presents a way for everyone viewing the thread to learn.


Also, good info on the first part, thanks.

On the second part, that was why I wanted to start this thread, I, like probably everyone else, have been guilty of reaching, and while the 1bad footage gave a handy excuse, I didn't want to tie the discussion to the previous discussion, all that's between 1bad and whoever else. I've been training out here with the sifu of one of the local sanda champions, and I want to iron out a lot of my problems in fighting so I can more readily apply what I've learned now and before, so all this input is very helpful.

[Shaolin Wookie]

So, if we're going to be constructive.

1bad65: you repeatedly make the critical error of moving straight backwards when the kicks come in. He wasn't throwing leg kicks, so there's no call for moving straight back. IF someone throws a thrust kick or a side kick, move off the line by stepping forward at an angle. Maybe if you trained more CMA, you'd understand. A kicker loves someone who moves straight back, because you're always in his range until you run out of space. But whenever anyone throws a thrust kick at me w/o a setup, I know it's money for setting up my hands and catching him off balance, especially when that kick is not set up by his hands.

Seriously, if anyone ever throws a side kick without using his hands to set it up, close the distance. Even if it's a roundhouse---look at Cung Le vids and what he did to Shamrock by standing his ground and moving off the line. He embarrassed him...LOL....

Also, if they throw a back heel kick, use a meia lua de compossa, and you'll KO 'em 9 times out of 10. (Scientifically proven).

[SAAMAG]

Also, if they throw a back heel kick, use a meia lua de compossa, and you'll KO 'em 9 times out of 10. (Scientifically proven).

I call b.s on that one. You can't prove the general stasticial outcome of a move's success without taking into consideration vast variable differences between one person and the next. Skill level, timing, physical anatomy, those all come into play. If I'm wrong, show your scientific proof. I know for fact that I've scientifically disproven your theory personally when I retracted my side kick and kicked again as he was spinning -- knocking him on his arse. But then maybe I was part of that 5%?

Besides that, a spinning heel kick like that is generally never a good idea because it's easy to defeat with a simple lean back, it's slower than most other moves, and it exposes your back.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I agree. But if you're really good at a spinning back-heel and fighting a non-professional fighter, you'll hit most of the time. Cung Le might miss his, but he's fighting professional fighters. If you're fighting the average MA guy at a school, and you spar for a good minute or so, and one of you throws a back heel kick with massive speed to counter a lazy punch or a crappy kick, it'll probably land.

And a meia lua de compasso is a great counter, because you step into the kick before he turns his head, and when he comes around, your heel is coming up on his weak side, and you duck the kick by a good differential. Even if he has his hands up, it comes around from behind his guard, and no block he can throw has enough power (with one hand) to stop that kind of rotational power. You'll power through that block like it was nothing and land square on the side of his head.

He did say he was fighting a guy with TKD kicks. Chances are, he's seen one thrown before. The only thing about the meia lua, make sure your hands are planted, and don't take 'em off the floor before your leg makes contact. Push off the ground, and you can get massive power, even if it's a shot to the ribs.

I woudn't say capoeira had a whole lot of great martial moves, but that one is golden.

[zapruder_bjj]

I agree. But if you're really good at a spinning back-heel and fighting a non-professional fighter, you'll hit most of the time. Cung Le might miss his, but he's fighting professional fighters. If you're fighting the average MA guy at a school, and you spar for a good minute or so, and one of you throws a back heel kick with massive speed to counter a lazy punch or a crappy kick, it'll probably land.

And a meia lua de compasso is a great counter, because you step into the kick before he turns his head, and when he comes around, your heel is coming up on his weak side, and you duck the kick by a good differential. Even if he has his hands up, it comes around from behind his guard, and no block he can throw has enough power (with one hand) to stop that kind of rotational power. You'll power through that block like it was nothing and land square on the side of his head.

He did say he was fighting a guy with TKD kicks. Chances are, he's seen one thrown before. The only thing about the meia lua, make sure your hands are planted, and don't take 'em off the floor before your leg makes contact. Push off the ground, and you can get massive power, even if it's a shot to the ribs.

I woudn't say capoeira had a whole lot of great martial moves, but that one is golden.

Why not just jam the kick and throw an overhand right? Why throw a low percentage "if he isnt a pro fighter it works great" kick, instead of a works on everyone technique? Unless you are going for style points or you are a good capoeira player. So my vote is **** POOR advice on that one.

One other thing, how are you always in range when movng back until you run out of space. It seems to me you are out of range until you move out of space, or does your CMA show you how to bend space and time?

[Shaolin Wookie]

One other thing, how are you always in range when movng back until you run out of space. It seems to me you are out of range until you move out of space, or does your CMA show you how to bend space and time?

My experience is, if you duck and cover when someone's landing shots on you, and you move straight back every time with a flinch cover:

1. the guy has no reason to stop striking you if he's 1/2-way intelligent.

2. Sooner or later you'll get rocked.

As for the spinnning back heel kick, if it's not a TKD tournament or Cung Le showing off, usually there's a setup.:D