What lineage is this kicking form

[YongChun]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering what lineage this kicking form comes from? One person I know from Hong Kong also learned this form about 40 years ago (almost identical 95%) but not from the Yip Man -> Lee Shing -> Austin Goh lineage or even Yip Man -> Lee Shing. He was also told at the time of learning to keep this form a secret (same as stated on the Austin Goh website). These days everything is out in the open of course. When I learned the wooden dummy in 1980 even the teaching of that was a bit secretive.

Some Lee Shing history states he learned another brand of Wing Chun so perhaps that form came from a different lineage than from Yip Man?

"Grandmaster Lee Shing was born in 1923 in Hoxan in Southern China. He first studied Gulao (Pien San) Wing Chun at an early age in mainland China under his first teacher Fong Yee Ming, who himself had learnt from Wong Wah Sam who had learnt from Leung Jan. Lee Shing was a keen disciple and was inspired to research the different styles of Wing Chun, He therefore, in his research, went on to study under Fung Sang who was one of the central points of Pien San Wing Chun, having studied under his father Fung Lim and his uncle Koo Siu-Lung (both students of Wong Wah Sam). He then went on to learn from the famous Kung Fu Master Ng Jung So. " http://www.josephleewingchun.com/LeeShing.jsp.

I am just interested in the history, it doesn't matter about the form or who it comes from just curious. Most people incorporate those kind of kicks shown anyway. Some Yip Man students seem to know or have developed the three (or more) pole kicking dummy form too while others never bothered with it or were taught it. Still all the form movements that I have seen are but variations of things in the wooden dummy form and those movements (at least the hand actions) are from the empty hand forms. All of those in turn are manifestations of the core ideas and principles of the art. Here are the clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rOAbqbA3wk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smjucpF_wms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR0d0Q3iRws

Ray

[KPM]

Hey Ray!

To me it looks like a compilation of the kicking methods from Chum Kiu, Biu Gee, and the dummy with a few alterations/variations thrown in. It would be interesting to know where it originated from.

[Lee Chiang Po]

These appear to be your standard Wing Chun kicks. What is likely taking place is ranking advancement testing. The 4 empty hand sets aside, some schools like you to put together sets that incorperate a half dozen blocking techniques with follow up. In this case I think it was to show the developed skills in kicking.
When I am teaching, I like to do the same thing. I will have my student to use Tan sau, and left and right give me up to half a dozen follow up techniques based on Tan Sau. Kicking is usually the weakest point for most as they do not focus on that as much as they do the chi sau drills. I like kicking as it is your strongest weapon in most cases. In some of these kicks It looked like the man was doing a foot sweep and a kick in quick succession.

[HardWork8]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering what lineage this kicking form comes from? One person I know from Hong Kong also learned this form about 40 years ago (almost identical 95%) but not from the Yip Man -> Lee Shing -> Austin Goh lineage or even Yip Man -> Lee Shing. He was also told at the time of learning to keep this form a secret (same as stated on the Austin Goh website). These days everything is out in the open of course. When I learned the wooden dummy in 1980 even the teaching of that was a bit secretive.

Some Lee Shing history states he learned another brand of Wing Chun so perhaps that form came from a different lineage than from Yip Man?

"Grandmaster Lee Shing was born in 1923 in Hoxan in Southern China. He first studied Gulao (Pien San) Wing Chun at an early age in mainland China under his first teacher Fong Yee Ming, who himself had learnt from Wong Wah Sam who had learnt from Leung Jan. Lee Shing was a keen disciple and was inspired to research the different styles of Wing Chun, He therefore, in his research, went on to study under Fung Sang who was one of the central points of Pien San Wing Chun, having studied under his father Fung Lim and his uncle Koo Siu-Lung (both students of Wong Wah Sam). He then went on to learn from the famous Kung Fu Master Ng Jung So. " http://www.josephleewingchun.com/LeeShing.jsp.

I am just interested in the history, it doesn't matter about the form or who it comes from just curious. Most people incorporate those kind of kicks shown anyway. Some Yip Man students seem to know or have developed the three (or more) pole kicking dummy form too while others never bothered with it or were taught it. Still all the form movements that I have seen are but variations of things in the wooden dummy form and those movements (at least the hand actions) are from the empty hand forms. All of those in turn are manifestations of the core ideas and principles of the art. Here are the clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rOAbqbA3wk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smjucpF_wms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR0d0Q3iRws

Ray

According to the poster of the videos in the You Tube the lineage is Lee Shing/Austin Goh. It would be interesting to know wether this was something that was added by Goh or wether it comes originally from the teachings of Lee Shing.

Maybe other non Austin Goh practitioners of the Lee Shing lineage can enlighten us.

[bennyvt]

It looks alot like the air dummy ( the dummy moves done without the dummy) I do this when I have no dummy available. I think the main problem is the word form. We dont class the dummy as a separate form as it all comes from the other forms, More like practicing chi sao without an opponent. We would normally call them drills but it depends on you use of terms.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I am not 100% positive but here is some info..

Lee Shing WC has a few odd sets that seem to be more likely developed by Lee Shing. Kicking Form, Sand Bag Set, Arrow etc.. They seem to be more or less specific areas of development that he wanted to place a little extra focus on? Perhaps???

Some Lee Shing schools regard this stuff as coming from Side Body WC but its not our stuff.

Hope this helps!


:)

[LoneTiger108]

According to the poster of the videos in the You Tube the lineage is Lee Shing/Austin Goh. It would be interesting to know wether this was something that was added by Goh or wether it comes originally from the teachings of Lee Shing.

Maybe other non Austin Goh practitioners of the Lee Shing lineage can enlighten us.

Wow! So nice to return from a lil break and see a question actually pointed at me!! To untangle the mystery of Lee Shings Wing Chun has been a struggle for me as most of you know I learnt very late (1994-present) from an unknown Sifu so I wasn't privvy to the earlier promotions that surrounded us all.

What I can say about this set, like many others from my Uncles, is that they are definately from Lee Shing. There is no reason why people can not see the logic here. They were not HIS forms/sets, they were simply what he used to teach individuals and where he learnt them from was HIS business! Nobody can really be sure but I know they are still Wing Chun!

FWIW, I feel that his teachings were influenced by Ng Jung So, Fung Sang and Lok Yiu mainly and when he came to the UK he was pretty much ordered to only teach an Ip Man brand. This he did until he died, but some of his students just HAD to show some of his other teachings as they realized that their humble teacher had so much more knowledge from his earlier years in Martial Arts.

Personally, I never 'learnt' this kicking form (demonstraed by Oli) but I learnt of the existence of a Sap Luk Gert Fut (16 leg techniques) when practising the wooden man.


Some Lee Shing schools regard this stuff as coming from Side Body WC but its not our stuff.

You know my opinions on that one Jim!

Nothing from Lee Shing is strictly Side Body Wing Chun (as how you refer to it) it's just a slice of his very large cake...

[Jim Roselando]

Spencer,


What I can say about this set, like many others from my Uncles, is that they are definately from Lee Shing.

Agreed! JR

There is no reason why people can not see the logic here.

I think its pretty clear ;) Even you said they were definetely from LS. JR

They were not HIS forms/sets, they were simply what he used to teach individuals and where he learnt them from was HIS business! Nobody can really be sure but I know they are still Wing Chun!

Actually, we can always go with a More Likely. Since they are pretty much exclusive to LS, we can pretty much figure out the More Likely? As you said: they were simply what he used to teach individuals. How many other WC Sifu's use them outside LS? Is it all WC? Yes! Is there anything that is in those sets that is not in the system already? Seem to be more like something isolated to focus on something he, LS, felt was important. Just an opinion. JR

You know my opinions on that one Jim!

Nothing from Lee Shing is strictly Side Body Wing Chun (as how you refer to it) it's just a slice of his very large cake...

I didn't coin the term Side Body Wing Chun. I refer to it the same way everyone else who trains it does! :) LS had a lot of MA training. He was a creative and talented guy. His art, like many others, represents his expressions of his knowledge. Not strict to any one system but Largely rooted in YMWC. JR


Gotta run!

[HardWork8]

Wow! So nice to return from a lil break and see a question actually pointed at me!!

Seeing that there are so few of us Mainland Wing Chun guys here....;)


What I can say about this set, like many others from my Uncles, is that they are definately from Lee Shing. There is no reason why people can not see the logic here. They were not HIS forms/sets, they were simply what he used to teach individuals and where he learnt them from was HIS business! Nobody can really be sure but I know they are still Wing Chun!

Well they sure are and it is a good way to focus the students and pass the particular aspects of this knowledge.


.....when he came to the UK he was pretty much ordered to only teach an Ip Man brand.

I was not aware of this and what a pity, as there is so much more to Wing Chun then what is generally seen nowadays. To restrict a master's knowledge in such a way is almost criminal.


Personally, I never 'learnt' this kicking form (demonstraed by Oli) but I learnt of the existence of a Sap Luk Gert Fut (16 leg techniques) when practising the wooden man.

We have got the 16 ways of kicking form (Sap Lok Gerk Fat) in Siu Lam Wing Chun and it is an area that I have to revise when I next meet up with sifu. However, our version is not a Dummy form and it is taught much earlier at the Chum Kiu level.

PS I believe you are the same Spencer who went to my sifu's Siu Lam Wing Chun seminar here in London in May? One of my kung fu brothers who was there mentioned you and a few other lee Shing kung fu cousins (I was in Paris on that day ;)). :)

[LoneTiger108]

We have got the 16 ways of kicking form (Sap Lok Gerk Fat) in Siu Lam Wing Chun and it is an area that I have to revise when I next meet up with sifu. However, our version is not a Dummy form and it is taught much earlier at the Chum Kiu level.

Just to keep things clear for us mainlanders! ;) The Mui Faa Jong I mentioned IS NOT the 108/116 form commonly seen it's a completely different set of techniques which serves a whole different purpose. This was learnt at the very beginning for most of us, especially if you had previous Martial Arts experience (of which we all had!)


PS I believe you are the same Spencer who went to my sifu's Siu Lam Wing Chun seminar here in London in May? One of my kung fu brothers who was there mentioned you and a few other lee Shing kung fu cousins (I was in Paris on that day ;)). :)

Yep! That would be me! Andreas Sifu was very welcoming and humble and FWIW he had a refreshing view of Martial Arts in general. I had the pleasure of playing some seated chi gerk with him, which took me back, and I could feel that he knew what he was doing as I'm sure he could feel in me too! Good chisau too, very decent 'flow' and willing to be hit!!! I could see why students want to train with him.

The ONLY difference to us from what I saw and heard was that SLWC tends to 'separate' basic kung fu training from typical Wing Chun concepts. You teach them as separate entities almost. Shaolin basics, wing chun theories?

We also learnt like this, but even our basic training and terminologies stick to the WC art. It was all WC to me but I could understand what was being said and why. Very interesting and open about historical interpretation too.

Keep up the good work! Ask your brother to call me if he wants a write up...

[HardWork8]

Yep! That would be me! Andreas Sifu was very welcoming and humble and FWIW he had a refreshing view of Martial Arts in general. I had the pleasure of playing some seated chi gerk with him, which took me back, and I could feel that he knew what he was doing as I'm sure he could feel in me too! Good chisau too, very decent 'flow' and willing to be hit!!! I could see why students want to train with him.

Sometimes, I get the feeling that he enjoys getting hit...lol. The combination of his chi kung and external training has made his body very impact resistant and I suppose getting hit tests his iron shirt as well as the student's own power and feeling.


The ONLY difference to us from what I saw and heard was that SLWC tends to 'separate' basic kung fu training from typical Wing Chun concepts. You teach them as separate entities almost. Shaolin basics, wing chun theories?

Well, it is more of Shaolin conditioning and Chi kung in general and then Wing Chun fighting and concepts/principles separately.


Keep up the good work!

You too. From what I hear, sifu was impressed by the Wing Chun people in the seminar all of whom seemed to be from the Lee Shing lineage (whatever happened to the [UK majority] Yip Man practitioners???:confused:).

What was your take on the Wing Chun ground fighting demo and explanations?

I was told that there was a none WC MA-ist who did a few takedowns on sifu for demo purposes.



Ask your brother to call me if he wants a write up...

I have talked to him just a few hours ago. He is right now preparing to leave the UK for good, actually we both are and I believe that he may get in touch with you just before he leaves.:)

[LoneTiger108]

... From what I hear, sifu was impressed by the Wing Chun people in the seminar all of whom seemed to be from the Lee Shing lineage (whatever happened to the [UK majority] Yip Man practitioners???:confused:).

Who knows? Your Sifus students spent a whole two days chatting to people at Seni and the only ones interested seemed to be the Lee Family guys. We understand good basics and can see the similarities I suppose, but maybe everyone else was just in too much of a competitive mind?


... What was your take on the Wing Chun ground fighting demo and explanations?

I was told that there was a none WC MA-ist who did a few takedowns on sifu for demo purposes.

It was good to see a Sifu take some pressure and still prove what he intended to. Very simple stuff really, and similar to what I've seem Emin Sifu do. Again though, the terms were Shaolin where as in my mind I could see the Chun.


... He is right now preparing to leave the UK for good, actually we both are and I believe that he may get in touch with you just before he leaves.:)

It would be great to stay in touch and it's a shame you're all off so soon! Genuine people that never brag in the media machines are hard to find on the net and your Sifu is a treasure to you all.

Good luck on your journeys...

[HardWork8]

Who knows? Your Sifus students spent a whole two days chatting to people at Seni and the only ones interested seemed to be the Lee Family guys. We understand good basics and can see the similarities I suppose, but maybe everyone else was just in too much of a competitive mind?

It is a pity that for some people competition gets in the way of evolution :rolleyes:, as far as the kung fu journey is concerned. There are many who are vocal about there "not being any ground fighting in Wing Chun (or even kung fu in general).

From what I hear, there were some Wing Chuners who also were of the same opinion at Seni (as there are some here in the forums).

There were others who did not see the relevance of the internals in Wing Chun. Yet when they were presented with the opportunity of seeing another and a very rich aspect of an art which most of them presumably love then what did they do? They buried their head in the sand. Very sad indeed. I suppose they can always fill in the gaps in their WC by training in BJJ and Tae Kwon Do.



It was good to see a Sifu take some pressure and still prove what he intended to. Very simple stuff really, and similar to what I've seem Emin Sifu do. Again though, the terms were Shaolin where as in my mind I could see the Chun.

It is my understanding that there are other aspects to WC ground fighting including "deeper" applications of Chin-na. Maybe next time he can go further into the ground fighting aspects.;)




It would be great to stay in touch and it's a shame you're all off so soon! Genuine people that never brag in the media machines are hard to find on the net and your Sifu is a treasure to you all.

He sure is a treasure. I have been fortunate enough to meet a couple of other (none Wing Chun) kung fu treasures here in London. I will sure miss them. However, we will be here until early August.

By the way, whenever you are in Rio de Janeiro, look us up. Sifu's site doesn't seem to be on air yet, but I will let you know as soon as it is.:)

[LoneTiger108]

There were others who did not see the relevance of the internals in Wing Chun. Yet when they were presented with the opportunity of seeing another and a very rich aspect of an art which most of them presumably love then what did they do? They buried their head in the sand. Very sad indeed. I suppose they can always fill in the gaps in their WC by training in BJJ and Tae Kwon Do.

This may be the main problem. But to be fair, constantly arguing on forums by all parties helps nobody! People are generally 'happy' with their chun, and feel that the gaps may fill themselves after so and so many years, more training in chisau etc. It is hard for some people to put aside their years to listen to another viewpoint. Not so much trouble for me though. Maybe its just a Lee Family thing. We see the oldskool mind in our training and recognize others who share fundamentals I guess.

With regards to groundfighting, I say 'if you have none, where are your snake methods?' ;)


It is my understanding that there are other aspects to WC ground fighting including "deeper" applications of Chin-na. Maybe next time he can go further into the ground fighting aspects.;)

Oh he went into plenty of that! :D Just not too new to me I suppose. Basic stuff. It only goes deep when it gets dangerous. No need for that really.


By the way, whenever you are in Rio de Janeiro, look us up. Sifu's site doesn't seem to be on air yet, but I will let you know as soon as it is.:)

Thanks for the invite! Where in Rio?? I have a Facebook friend living there whos been looking for a Wing Chun school for ages!

Any footage yet of other Kicking Forms from Wing Chun?

[HardWork8]

This may be the main problem. But to be fair, constantly arguing on forums by all parties helps nobody! People are generally 'happy' with their chun, and feel that the gaps may fill themselves after so and so many years, more training in chisau etc. It is hard for some people to put aside their years to listen to another viewpoint. Not so much trouble for me though. Maybe its just a Lee Family thing.

I think that it may indeed be a Lee family characteristic of openmindedness. It seems that some Lee family members had come from quite far away.



We see the oldskool mind in our training and recognize others who share fundamentals I guess.

I believe that is a key statement and it is my belief that some of the "secrets" of kung fu are in the old school methodology and approach and not some modernist's perception of that approach.


Thanks for the invite! Where in Rio?? I have a Facebook friend living there whos been looking for a Wing Chun school for ages!

I believe that sifu maybe between schools, but I would say most probably either in Copacabana or Ipanema. I know that his open air classes are held in Lagoa (Lake) on the Ipanema side. I will PM you his email and perhaps you or your friend can ask him for any updates on location or class schedules.

Take care.

[unkokusai]

By the way, whenever you are in Rio de Janeiro, look us up. Sifu's site doesn't seem to be on air yet, but I will let you know as soon as it is.:)



I thought your basement was in London... :confused: