Where Yip Man's dummy form came from

[kung fu fighter]

Hi!

I understand that Yip Man cheoraghed the wooden dummy form by combining and linking the traditional two man san sao drills that he knew, just wondering how many practice the dummy techniques as two man drills. I understand that the Wang kiu linage has a two man dummy from, and Duncan Leung has something called dismantiled dummy where you take the techniques apart and practice them individually.

Navin

[Graychuan]

Hi!

I understand that Yip Man cheoraghed the wooden dummy form by combining and linking the traditional two man san sao drills that he knew, just wondering how many practice the dummy techniques as two man drills. I understand that the Wang kiu linage has a two man dummy from, and Duncan Leung has something called dismantiled dummy where you take the techniques apart and practice them individually.

Navin

We basically do slow to fast attacks and apply the dummy forms. We do it slow and one attack at the beginning then move to no less that 2 strikes from the attacker. Very Simialr to the one-step to multistep sparring that is done in Kempo. However we do not just take these as the 'gospel' since the art is alive and can be spontaneous(chi-sao).

[YongChun]

It seems more likely to me that he just re-arranged the mainland China Wing Chun dummy form which had a lot more movements into a 108 movement, 10 section form. Later he thought 8 sections with 116 movements were nicer and so re-arranged the movements to fit that model. Other students of Yip Man also re-arranged, added and subtracted movements from the form to create their own.

Wang Kiu has what he calls a live dummy form which means the two people version of the standard 108 movement wooden dummy form. He said that before the first wooden dummy was built by the Cheung brothers, Yip Man showed him the dummy in a restaurant where there was no dummy and so he learned a two people version of it. Later he just taught the wooden man version. It doesn't really matter which you know because all the movements are the same and even in the Wang Kiu version people just train a randomized dummy at some point (like Jackie Chan's innovation in some movie). The main thing is to be able to use all of the movements in combat and not to learn some pre-arranged form. The form is just the basics for getting started, like your dictionary of movements.

In the Wang Kiu live dummy form one side punches and the other side does the dummy stuff. For example in section 1 of the 108 movement wooden dummy, side A throws a punch, side B does either a Bill sau to the outside or a Tan and punch to the outside, then side A throws the second punch and B replies with either a Tan and punch or an inside Pak sau (depending on which way he started - with a bill sau or Tan and punch). Then A throws the third punch and B responds with a Bong sau. The neck pulling hand can be added right after the tan and punch or the slapping hand mentioned above (Pak sau) can be interpreted as a variation on the neck pulling hand. Anyway there are all kinds of variations possible. Then there is also the random dummy where on partner steps in and continuously attacks while the other partner does anything from the whole dummy form to defend. The dummy can also be split up into a whole bunch of 1, 2 or 3 step sparring drills like the Karate people do and then put these to use in regular sparring activity. Lots of movements from the forms can be practiced on the dummy. The Pan Nam dummy form shown on the Pan Nam tape has probably more than 200 movements.

One Yip Man student by the name of Patrick Chow said that after you train hard on the dummy for two years, then you can throw it out. Others mind you would say that the dummy is a lifelong training partner when you don't have any other training partner. It is best to have a training partner who is better in skill level than you are and who hits back and can point out errors.


Ray

[couch]

Good to see you kicking around, Ray!

Where have you been hiding?

It's been a long time since I came over to your house (3/4 years). I've since moved to Nova Scotia and started a family!

I hope all is well with you. Glad to know you're still training!

Best,
Kenton

[sihing]

I know that during my years in TWC, we practiced what we called the "Live Dummy", which was basically a two man form. One guy throwing a specific set of attacks, while us using the movements from the dummy & following the sequence of the form. IMO this is more "technique" orientated thinking.

Now that I train in WSL line, as far as I know (I could be wrong), there is no Live dummy training with a partner. There is allot of going thru the dummy form without the dummy, this improves your imagination as Sifu Lam would say, and allows one to not be so stuck into performing the form in a strict manner. Also, in WSL line, the form is more of a tool to correct wrong doing and to improve your body mechanics, rather than a way to learn how to use your tools against specific attacks (so in others, when I do the dummy form I am not thinking about this attack or that attack coming at me, rather I think about proper facing, foot placement, power generation and flowing movements, etc etc...). It's pretty useless IMO to think about defending attacks, when you are working with unalive training apparatus that is unable to replicate realistic life like attacks.

I'm not sure where Yip Man got his dummy form from, I assume from his teachers, but I have heard he did delete certain sections of it due to redundancy. As with anyone that does something over a number of years or decades, things are bound to evolve and improve if one is into quality control and has an open mind.

James

[Tom Kagan]

Hi!

I understand that Yip Man cheoraghed the wooden dummy form by combining and linking the traditional two man san sao drills that he knew, just wondering how many practice the dummy techniques as two man drills. I understand that the Wang kiu linage has a two man dummy from, and Duncan Leung has something called dismantiled dummy where you take the techniques apart and practice them individually.

Navin


The "two man dummy drills" were used by Yip Man to teach people the dummy form before someone came along with the proper carpentry skill set to be able build the dummies. The dummy form was not, to my knowledge, created by Yip Man, though he did apply his characteristic signature of eliminating what he considered fluff along with a touch of re-sequencing.

The "dismantled dummy" is merely Duncan Leung explicitly reminding people that the dummy is more than just a form to be played in sequence.


There is also "Da Huhng Jong", BTW.

[chusauli]

"Dismantled Dummy" = Da San Jong

Da Hung Jong is doing the set in the air

Mai Sang Jong = Live practice on dummies

Yip Man's Jong set went through evolution. Seeing Mark Hobbs play Lun Gai's set, you can see the important elements, but the set went through changes from Futshan to HK. Seeing Leung Sheung, Tsui Sheung Tien, Lo Man Kam and WSL were also at one level, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming, Ho Luen were at another, more similar to what we see today. Some put their own additions to the sets, making it longer.

All sets are fine, as long as you have proper energy and stances.

Sometimes teachers use the Jong as a tool to get students out of their hair. :)

[Tom Kagan]

Mai Sang Jong = Live practice on dummies

It was explained to me as "bring the dummy to life" - i.e.: Sparring.

Do you mean something else by "live practice on dummies"?

[YongChun]

Good to see you kicking around, Ray!

Where have you been hiding?

It's been a long time since I came over to your house (3/4 years). I've since moved to Nova Scotia and started a family!

I hope all is well with you. Glad to know you're still training!

Best,
Kenton

Hi Kenton,

Congratulations on your family. I just took a break and cut down on teaching, just train with a couple of students. I came back to see what people are talking about these days and found some is the same which is to be expected as new people get into the art. Also the same arguments are still there about what is useful and what is not. I look at all the models and they are similar for learning how to fight. No use to argue or pontificate about those things.

1. Learn the form and theory
2. Practice some drills
3. Spar against each other
4. Spar against people not from your own art
5. Just go out and fight

Different people stop at different points of this spectrum and the intensity varies according to your tastes, mentality, genetic and body characteristics etc.

When I studied Hung style, the training was 10 years of forms and drills then go out and fight to get lots of experience. These days that will get you killed for sure so people stay with drills, sparring their classmates or entering general martial arts tournaments and also cross training in everything.

The Tai Chi model that I am familiar with was train the form, train the pushing hands, train the applications, randomize the applications then add speed and power and train on a dumy, punching bags and do the basic stuff to build up your body for fighting, then go out and fight. The combat fighters are intense and there are many injuries so over time most do the gentleman style pushing hands for health and fun.

The Wing Chun model I am familiar with was learn the forms, do the drills and chi sau, spar with your classmates, spar with non-Wing Chun people, then go out and fight. In the process work on your speed, strength physical conditioning etc. just as a boxer or any other fighter would do.

How you train depends on your tastes and purpose for training , age, injuries etc. No one can really argue much about the idea that real fighters have to fight to learn the ropes but people's purpose for training vary and most people don't like to go to work with their teeth knocked out, their nose broken and bruises everywhere so the arguments come down to how to approach realistic training short of going on the injured list for 6 months or permanently.

I find after a certain age it takes forever to heal so one has to be careful. Also we all have limits and in real there is the gun, the knife and multiple opponents. Some people live in a more violent society so their aims and training methods would be different than those who are interested to dabble in martial arts. In martial arts, you can find something for everyone no matter what age or physical condition. If you are improving yourself then that's the main thing.

Ray

[KPM]

Hi!

just wondering how many practice the dummy techniques as two man drills. I understand that the Wang kiu linage has a two man dummy from, and Duncan Leung has something called dismantiled dummy where you take the techniques apart and practice them individually.

Navin

I practice my Wing Chun in a "San Sik" format. Each San Sik is applied on the dummy as well as within a two man exercise. So, in a sense, each is a short "two man dummy form." Also each San Sik can be combined with various others, or strung together in different sequences to make a very "open-ended" dummy form with many variations.

As others have pointed out, I don't think Ip Man made up his dummy form by combining San Sik that he knew. I think he simply modified and adjusted the dummy form that he had learned from his teacher.

[chusauli]

It was explained to me as "bring the dummy to life" - i.e.: Sparring.

Do you mean something else by "live practice on dummies"?

It also refers to San Sao - Separate Hands, Loose Hands, Sparring, Fighting, Gong Sao (Talking Hands) - where you take segments out and apply them in actual combat.

For example - in the 4th section of the Jong:

Bong Sao, step to outside, Tan Sao/Low Palm/Chai Gerk is done.

In application, the Bong Sao is only for a split second and off balancing the opponent, while you step in and take the opponent's blind side and break his structure with Tan Sao/Low Strike...as he is falling from a broken 11th and 12th floating rib shot, you stomp down on the leg with your heel laterally on the knee severing the posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) and the lateral collateral ligament (LCL).

Its not quite the same on the Jong set. This is a live application of the Jong, not a literal application of the Jong.

Hope that is clearer.

[Tom Kagan]

Hope that is clearer.

Well ....

All I really wanted to know was whether you meant something more literal by the phrasing "live practice on dummies". Regardless, you mentioning a particular movement - the step - done on the dummy (because the dummy is an inanimate object which remains in place) is enough for me to figure out your phrasing was merely awkward. We more or less understand the meaning of "Mai Suhng Jong" the same way.

I'm not going to quibble over the anatomy references. ;)


Thanks Robert.

[chusauli]

Well ....

All I really wanted to know was whether you meant something more literal by the phrasing "live practice on dummies". Regardless, you mentioning a particular movement - the step - done on the dummy (because the dummy is an inanimate object which remains in place) is enough for me to figure out your phrasing was merely awkward. We more or less understand the meaning of "Mai Suhng Jong" the same way.

I'm not going to quibble over the anatomy references. ;)


Thanks Robert.

LOL! All I was showing you was that I have fantasy dreams in detail! LOL!

From a fighter's POV, that sequence could work against a scrub...but in a trained fighter, probably way too slow because you're doing all the "talking". In a real fight, at best, you only have one move for one move, never 3 - 4 moves against one move, unless you have shut him down and slowed his reaction timing.

Sometimes I think the Jong set is a throwback to the Operatic elements that may not have completely left WCK. Look at all the drama! :)

[kung fu fighter]

Yip Man's dummy form is completely different to yuen kay san wing chun, and from what i understand pien san wing chun doesn't even have a dummy form. So where did yip man's dummy form come from, since yip didn't get it from Chan Wah Shun?

[Phil Redmond]

Yip Man's dummy form is completely different to yuen kay san wing chun, and from what i understand pien san wing chun doesn't even have a dummy form. So where did yip man's dummy form come from, since yip didn't get it from Chan Wah Shun?
Hi Navin, every Sifu I studied with showed the individual dummy techniques.
Since most WC history is oral I'd like to know what source says that Yip Man didn't learn the dummy from Chan Wah Shun. I ask because unless there was some written evidence most of us can only go by what we were told regarding WC history. I will give a person the benefit of the doubt but I for one don't believe everything I'm told without some sort of proof.

[Edmund]

Yip Man's dummy form is completely different to yuen kay san wing chun, and from what i understand pien san wing chun doesn't even have a dummy form. So where did yip man's dummy form come from, since yip didn't get it from Chan Wah Shun?

Well YKS WC dummy form was definitely "choreographed by combining and linking the traditional san sao drills" because that is how Sum Nung explained where the different techniques added to the form came from.

Plus it's not completely different from YM's. Almost all the 1st section of YM's form is done move for move in sequence in the YKS form but it is later in the form. My guess would be that sequence goes further back than YM. PN dummy first section is real close to the same as well. YM 2nd section is pretty much the same as the first but going the other direction first.

Actually in each section YM form you can find similar sequences or variations in the other dummy forms. So it's not really completely different.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Navin, every Sifu I studied with showed the individual dummy techniques.
Since most WC history is oral I'd like to know what source says that Yip Man didn't learn the dummy from Chan Wah Shun. I ask because unless there was some written evidence most of us can only go by what we were told regarding WC history. I will give a person the benefit of the doubt but I for one don't believe everything I'm told without some sort of proof.

Yip Ching himself mentioned mentioned in the book "Ip Man, Portrait of a Kung Fu Master" that Yip Man only learnt from Chan Wah Shun for a period of 6 six months before Chan Passed away from a stroke. Yip continued his training under his sihing Ng Chung So, and later on learnt his advance techniques from leung Bik. When Leung Bik ask Yip to demonstrate the biu jee form, he couldn't because he didn't knew it, at that time he only knew siu lin tao and chum kiu forms.




PN dummy first section is real close to the same as well. YM 2nd section is pretty much the same as the first but going the other direction first.

Actually in each section YM form you can find similar sequences or variations in the other dummy forms. So it's not really completely different.

Pan Nam studied with Yip Man for a short while.

Plus alot of mainland wing chun people adapted yip man forms.

[Edmund]

Pan Nam studied with Yip Man for a short while.

Also alot of mainland people adapted yip man forms.

LOL. I don't think the forms are that close. PN dummy would look like the main land YM students dummy forms like Lun Gai's if that were the case. The overall choreography has differences as well.

*Plus* the sequence appearing in YKS dummy form backs it up as well.
I guess he took lessons of YM as well now.

You're picking what you want to see because of your theory about it not being from CWS. If you could point to the source of the san sao drills that it's supposed to be derived from, you might have something to base it off.

We still going on like Leung Bik taught YM these days? Didn't we get a straight admission that the whole story was made up to publish in a 60's KF mag?

[Phil Redmond]

.....We still going on like Leung Bik taught YM these days? Didn't we get a straight admission that the whole story was made up to publish in a 60's KF mag?
What you heard could be true but the bottom line is that an admission doesn't make a fact. People admit to crimes under pressure all the time. Who's to say that the alledged admission wasn't due to some sort of pressure or an agenda. I'm not from Missouri but I don't believe everything I hear. Especially in the Chinese martial arts community where people strive to protect their respective rice bowls.

[bennyvt]

When my teacher went to china he meet some guys that do cheung Bo ving tsun and it looked pretty much the same. Also Yip man's first student, Gwok Fu, learnt before he went to hong kong and their form is pretty much exactly the same.