Need for education reform

[Merryprankster]

I'm preoccupied with the social impacts of the internet. So sue me.

One of them reaches out to individuals at the most basic level: The "answer" to any question is readily available on line. The problem is that there is no quality control. No, I'm not an Andrew Keen afficianado, but previously, if you wanted to get something published in a journal, book, or such, a group of professionals kept the gate. Oh sure, you could publish something yourself, but distribution was going to be a *****. Well, that's not really an issue any more.

First, you have the fact that internet publishing of all sorts is readily available. That's well and good, but it means that for anything but the hard sciences and math, any idiot can offer up their opinion as fact. The technotopian vision of people being exposed to all that information, and expanding their horizons is absolute bunk. What actually happens is that people consume information and assoicate with people on line that they already agree with. If they interact with those who disagree, it's usually to get in a fight. Hence the tongue in cheek, but entirely accurate "Godwin's Law," originally developed for usenet, which basically states that as an online discussion gets longer, the probability of a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis approaches one." Nothing mind-expanding going on here. Rather, it's just mirroring...IN GENERAL, we personalize our media to ensure that we never have to be exposed to something we don't agree with.

This personalization can, in fact, be demonstrated by some rather interesting network analyses done on amazon book purchases. I don't, off the top of my head remember who does these analyses, but there are more than one, and the pattern has remained consistent. They show this: people who read "liberal" or "conservative" books, DON'T read books from the "other" side. An example is here (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/01/04/booksamericans.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.wired.com/sterling/2008/01/index.html&h=458&w=762&sz=124&hl=en&start=19&tbnid=yFRgHdSYcNcNBM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Damazon%2Bbook%2Brepublican%2Bdemocrat %2Bnetwork%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26s a%3DG)

Which brings me to my second point: Print and video media have been changed, because there is now worldwide distribution for any content, no matter how "niche." I can go to amazon and buy a book that my local store probably wouldn't have carried 20 years ago, because they have limited shelf space, and can't waste it on poor sellers. By contrast, inventory, as opposed to retail space, is cheap, and selling 10000 books at 10000 copies each is a cool 100 million. Can't think of any 100 million sellers off the top of my head. That's real profit.

So you can personalize all that too.

The point: We are inundated with information, of varying qualities and value. Education must ironically shift to something that looks more classical, with a grounding the trivium of grammar, logic, and rhetoric. If we are truly entering an "information" economy, then the advantage goes to those humans possessing the edge in information processing and analysis. The above three subjects give you the critical thinking skills you need to weed out bad arguments, and assess the information, opinions and facts on their merits.

Time for a massive overhaul.

[rogue]

Good topic.

I've been quietly sheparding my sons toward a Jeffersonian approach to education. These days information is cheap but being able to find accurate information and knowing if it is accurate is the hard part.

Once upon a time I looked at the internet for information, and while I still continue to do so I find myself more and more skeptical about what I see. These days I look for bloggers, posters or columnist whose writing I enjoy, if not necessarily agree with, and who seem to have a good head on their shoulders, and watch for who they're quoting or reading. So far I've picked up on some books and authors that have really made me think or have showed a perspective I don't have.

Print media is going through some churn. Once upon a time in what now seems a long time ago I could buy a computer book and the information in it would be somewhat up to date for a few years. These days technology can change faster than someone can write a book, get if proofed and printed meaning almost any computer book you buy is out of date. I don't even buy martial arts books anymore because youTube is better to get across a technique than 25 still pictures. Now the only books I buy are classics, poolside reading and anything else that might stand the test of time.

As a rule I avoid books by anyone, liberal or conservative, who has a radio show, and I've never understood the point of reading a book or blog by someone who I fully agree with. It is interesting to see birds of a feather doing the flocking thing and forming closed systems of thought where other view points are quickly rejected if they can even get by the thought police. It gets really fun when they start quoting each other to validate their opinions.


You might be interested in this...
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/tail.html

What's really amazing about the Long Tail is the sheer size of it. Combine enough nonhits on the Long Tail and you've got a market bigger than the hits. Take books: The average Barnes & Noble carries 130,000 titles. Yet more than half of Amazon's book sales come from outside its top 130,000 titles. Consider the implication: If the Amazon statistics are any guide, the market for books that are not even sold in the average bookstore is larger than the market for those that are (see "Anatomy of the Long Tail"). In other words, the potential book market may be twice as big as it appears to be, if only we can get over the economics of scarcity. Venture capitalist and former music industry consultant Kevin Laws puts it this way: "The biggest money is in the smallest sales."

I'm rambling, time for bed.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm preoccupied with the social impacts of the internet. So sue me.

One of them reaches out to individuals at the most basic level: The "answer" to any question is readily available on line. The problem is that there is no quality control. No, I'm not an Andrew Keen afficianado, but previously, if you wanted to get something published in a journal, book, or such, a group of professionals kept the gate. Oh sure, you could publish something yourself, but distribution was going to be a *****. Well, that's not really an issue any more.

First, you have the fact that internet publishing of all sorts is readily available. That's well and good, but it means that for anything but the hard sciences and math, any idiot can offer up their opinion as fact. The technotopian vision of people being exposed to all that information, and expanding their horizons is absolute bunk. What actually happens is that people consume information and assoicate with people on line that they already agree with. If they interact with those who disagree, it's usually to get in a fight. Hence the tongue in cheek, but entirely accurate "Godwin's Law," originally developed for usenet, which basically states that as an online discussion gets longer, the probability of a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis approaches one." Nothing mind-expanding going on here. Rather, it's just mirroring...IN GENERAL, we personalize our media to ensure that we never have to be exposed to something we don't agree with.

This personalization can, in fact, be demonstrated by some rather interesting network analyses done on amazon book purchases. I don't, off the top of my head remember who does these analyses, but there are more than one, and the pattern has remained consistent. They show this: people who read "liberal" or "conservative" books, DON'T read books from the "other" side. An example is here (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/01/04/booksamericans.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.wired.com/sterling/2008/01/index.html&h=458&w=762&sz=124&hl=en&start=19&tbnid=yFRgHdSYcNcNBM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Damazon%2Bbook%2Brepublican%2Bdemocrat %2Bnetwork%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26s a%3DG)

Which brings me to my second point: Print and video media have been changed, because there is now worldwide distribution for any content, no matter how "niche." I can go to amazon and buy a book that my local store probably wouldn't have carried 20 years ago, because they have limited shelf space, and can't waste it on poor sellers. By contrast, inventory, as opposed to retail space, is cheap, and selling 10000 books at 10000 copies each is a cool 100 million. Can't think of any 100 million sellers off the top of my head. That's real profit.

So you can personalize all that too.

The point: We are inundated with information, of varying qualities and value. Education must ironically shift to something that looks more classical, with a grounding the trivium of grammar, logic, and rhetoric. If we are truly entering an "information" economy, then the advantage goes to those humans possessing the edge in information processing and analysis. The above three subjects give you the critical thinking skills you need to weed out bad arguments, and assess the information, opinions and facts on their merits.

Time for a massive overhaul.

LOL....classical? A lot of our education techniques of the past have led to the present. For example...traditional grammar taught us what? Who still has traditional grammar?

Everyone in the public and private system. Grammar needed an overhaul in order for it to make sense in the improvement of writing. Traditional grammar did nothing to improve our writing. Most teachers of grammar don't even know the rules without a book. The truth is: you don't need the rules. You only need to know how to employ the words. We needed implementation strategies, and are using them now, or were....until No Child Left Behind.


REally, there's nothing in education so frightening as No Child Left Behind. Studying for testing strategies rather than learning valuable skills.

We're turning out morons as big as Laura Bush and Georgie Poorgie.

Grammar test: why is this sentence incorrect, and why is the rule in place in place?

I'd like to actually have sex and not have to pay for it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

As a rule I avoid books by anyone, liberal or conservative, who has a radio show, and I've never understood the point of reading a book or blog by someone who I fully agree with. .

HAHA.....that's a good one....:D

[bodhitree]

As someone who is in grad school right now in an education related field, the buzzword is "information literacy", which is crucial in the information age.


To move in a different direction, our culture needs to change if we want our education system to perform better (especially in the Teenage years, but it probably starts before that). Education is NOT valued by our children, which I suspect goes back to the parents. I suspect if parents are more involved in education from an earlier age, it could help a little. Stricter discipline at home could also make a difference. I don't know what the answers are.

This is not an accross-the-board statement, but it certainly applies to a lot of today's youth.


Conclusion: Not all of our educational problems can be solved by the schools, school districts, or the government. Education, and more importantly educational values, start at home, which is where these values to be nurtured and prepared for school.

[Merryprankster]

LOL....classical? A lot of our education techniques of the past have led to the present. For example...traditional grammar taught us what? Who still has traditional grammar?

Everyone in the public and private system. Grammar needed an overhaul in order for it to make sense in the improvement of writing. Traditional grammar did nothing to improve our writing. Most teachers of grammar don't even know the rules without a book. The truth is: you don't need the rules. You only need to know how to employ the words. We needed implementation strategies, and are using them now, or were....until No Child Left Behind.

Traditional traditional. Grammar usually encompassed learning not just the vernacular but greek or latin. There is value there. Grammar teaches you the building blocks of language and expression. Vocabulary, sentence structure, and meaning.

Logic teaches you to distinguish the good and strong arguments and information from the bad and weak. Critical thinking. Personally, I think this has taken a big hit as deconstructionism somehow meandered out of literary analysis and made inroads into other subjects....

Rhetoric teaches you to express yourself in written and verbal form.

Put em together and you have the building blocks of the education needed today.

We don't need implementation strategies, per se. We need to realize that the current system is rooted in educating children for an industrial world. Scratch that... we TRAINED them, and still do. Education involves instilling a love of learning, and providing the tools for self-learning. Not necessary for a factory worker or factory foreman.

And this is not to disparage them, either. The other fact that we need to recognize is that not everybody is cut out for college or an analogous environment. That's not a knock on them, it's just a fact. What I would like to see is a set of comprehensives taken say, around the age of 14 or 15. If you pass, they college track your courses. If not, then votech. Heck, I can't rebuild an engine. But I know some guys who aren't the "brightest," in terms of book learnin' that can do it blindfolded.

Somewhere along the way, we got very very confused. Collectively, in the U.S. at least, we are obsessed with college completion rates. Yes, that correlates to higher lifetime earnings, but the jury is still out on causation (those who complete college are usually smarter, more motivated etc, than those who start but quit).

However, masonry, nursing, mechanics, etc are serious money makers as well. Skilled labor is vital. It is useful, and it can make people a lot of money. I'd like to see a national shift towards recognizing its value, and placing that kind of mastery on the same pedestal as a bachelor's degree.

How about some love and money for the votech?

I would also eliminate subject specific magnet schools. I want educated people, not specially trained monkeys.

It's not so important that people go to college....it's horribly important that they are equipped with the BASIC skills to write, distinguish solid argumentation, and express themselves; coequal and inseparable from this is the idea that we need to prepare people to make a living, whether they go to college or not.

Otherwise, civil society suffers.

Bodhitree - no argument there. Education cannot be only the responsibility of the schools.

[Shaolin Wookie]

There's the problem though. Education has become tied to business, and even liberal arts universities have begun to sell out to "customer service" and business-oriented strategies in every field. There is no "love of learning." There is "love of money", love of high student counts, love of quotability. But university boards are selling their souls for money, and the economy and every high school is selling the image of

COLLEGE DIPLOMA=BIG MONEY

So, you get military grads with horrible education, pampered upper middle classers who take their college entry for granted, and a vast spectrum of underpriveleged persons making use of social-climbing means to get into college to make more money. I don't know of many people who attend school anymore because they enjoy it. Most people think I'm a freak. This isn't Cambridge in the days of seventeenth century scholars.......

[Shaolin Wookie]

As for grammar:

Knowing the rules by their rule does not =

Better implementation.

I've just run through a ****load of studies that naysays every claim that teaching formal grammar rules in any way improves implementation, and discussed it ad infinitum in my graduate level "Composition Theory" course at GSU, which is about teaching composition, grammar, and writing to undergrads. I found it offensive to think so, but honestly, when I really think about it, I learned every grammar rule by implementation, and really only learned English grammar when learning foriegn languages. Until then, I didn't need it.

Latin and Greek give us a better etymological understanding of our "Scholarly" language, but Old English is a better resource for our "Entire" language. There's more Germanic influence than Latin and Greek, especially in our sentence structures. English has borrowed more from the French and old French than Greek and Latin. The latin infusion was used for scholarly jargon, instituted by traditionalists who kept their position as scholars secure by instituting that jargon, which nobody else had; also, religious texts were preserved in latin, so it held a nice holy place in their minds.

[unkokusai]

REally, there's nothing in education so frightening as No Child Left Behind. Studying for testing strategies rather than learning valuable skills.




Ah yes, accountability is terrifying. :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Take any subject that is a grounding principle.

IE:

Mathematics
Reading Comprehension and Writing (English language for this case)
History
Social Studies/ Interpretation of Current events
Science - Chemistry/Biology/Physics et al

any of these disciplines will be further refined dependent upon your choicce of career path.

so the math you learn in high school will be light years behind what you learn in uni for your astro-mechanics course.

also, if you are going to be a writer, phonics will not get you beyond writing heavily edited ****ing dog stories.

yes, the educational system that you are mandated to attend is the toolset required for higher learning which is what you will need to make a significant change in your life or the lives of others, barring some form of natural genius and overwhelming capacity for learning and compassion, most of us will go that way. :)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Ah yes, accountability is terrifying. :rolleyes:

Have you ever taught in a NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND classroom during the testing preps and assessment sessions?

I'm going to say no, or else you wouldn't be so snide.

Accountability is achieved thus:

Instead of giving lessons every class period, which all of us recieved, teachers must cram more material into fewer sessions and shorter classes. Then, they replace that discussion time with sessions where they teach children how to perform on state-based standardized tests, which value no imagination, style, or anything of what we might call "personalized education". Rather, we teach them all to value what is key to the utilization of assessment numbers by a bunch of Washington politicos who value number crunching and "accountability" over functional literacy. Hence, rather than, say, giving a SAT prep course on weekends, we've effectually replaced in-classroom learning sessions with these State-test prep courses. You learn how to test. You don't learn information.

We're giving them the education equivalent to what qualifies the ruck of the lot.

I've seen it firsthand in several schools and participated, have you?:rolleyes:

Then, at the cost of further lessons, a teacher has to perform individualized assessment of the students during hte semester. This means, he/she fills out a report that is supposed to summarize each student's strengths and weaknesses with 1 on 1 conferences. Meanwhile, the students sit in the classroom without guidance, doing busy work or reading (which they're supposed to do outside of class). This happens a couple times per semester.

But then, if you're a supporter of No CHild Left Behind, clearly you think the educational system left you behind?

It's okay man. There's always HUKT ON FONIKS. Or, you could always go back to grade school and see what's going on.

Of course, if you want to politicize the classroom, let me submit the political world to the classroom. Let's begin with Dan Quail's "Potatoe" and George Bush's ".....can't get fooled again".:D Yes, clearly the minds we want behind educational reform.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Perhaps you think getting a high score on some multiple choice scantron and computer-graded essay test is more important than understanding how to show your work on long division and comprehending issues of syntax and style in Huckleberry Finn?

If so, sign onto that No CHILD LEFT BEHIND bill and contribute to the mediocracy of hte middle class...LOL...:eek:

[unkokusai]

I've been teaching for 15 years now. I've taught at public schools, private schools, universities, private tutoring situations, etc.

The people most opposed to testing and accountability are lazy teachers and corrupt unions who want to protect the 'right' to slack off and let kids just drift on by after year, who see the classroom as their 'turf' that no one had better dare step into and who see education as a political power they will never give up, or who want to ensure that whatever flavor of the day teaching 'methodology' they have most recently tied their sense of self importance to is never inconvenienced by actually expecting any kind of resuts.


What a load of crap. Testing of one sort or another is a part of life and always will be. Would you want a surgeon who never passed a test to operate on you? Would you want a president with virtually no experience to lead your country? Oh wait, you probably would...

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've been teaching for 15 years now. I've taught at public schools, private schools, universities, private tutoring situations, etc.

The people most opposed to testing and accountability are lazy teachers and corrupt unions who want to protect the 'right' to slack off and let kids just drift on by after year, who see the classroom as their 'turf' that no one had better dare step into and who see education as a political power they will never give up, or who want to ensure that whatever flavor of the day teaching 'methodology' they have most recently tied their sense of self importance to is never inconvenienced by actually expecting any kind of resuts.


What a load of crap. Testing of one sort or another is a part of life and always will be. Would you want a surgeon who never passed a test to operate on you? Would you want a president with virtually no experience to lead your country? Oh wait, you probably would...

If you're a teacher, I quit. You passed the tests.....'nuff said.

We're all doomed

[unkokusai]

Glad to hear you quit. Good luck finding another job where you can be lazy and self-righteous at the same time.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Glad to hear you quit. Good luck finding another job where you can be lazy and self-righteous at the same time.

No worries. I'm campaigning to be the next Republican candidate for the United States Presidency.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Would you want a president with virtually no experience to lead your country? Oh wait, you probably would...

Actually, I didn't. But I got one.








Twice.;)

[unkokusai]

No worries. I'm campaigning to be the next Republican candidate for the United States Presidency.



Good luck with that.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Thanks. Good luck with your scientological study technology. I hope nobody gets left behind when the DC-10's come to take us all away to a better place.;)

[unkokusai]

Yeah, ok, whatever the hell you are talking about...

[1bad65]

SW, what education do you have? Are you a teacher by chance? If not, what is your profession?

[Shaolin Wookie]

SW, what education do you have? Are you a teacher by chance? If not, what is your profession?

I teach Tae Kwon Do. But in my off-time, I stuff envelopes and make a great living from home. Won't you join my envelope stuffing enterprise? You'll make a fortune!

[1bad65]

So I guess it's safe to say you aren't very educated and you have minimum, if any, job skills. I'm guessing you're unemployed at the moment.

You are a perfect guy to argue about education with an educated man who has actually taught for 15 years. :rolleyes:

[Oso]

i'm definitely not well versed in all the ins and outs of this but it seems like a large part of the problem is that no one is allowed to say that little johhny just isn't smart enough to go to college.

not everyone is born with the same ability to be good at everything...not everyone is equal in thier aptitude for different things.

whatever happened to votech? when I was in HS there were guys that were building houses...every year the vocational classes built a house and sold it. I think there was a mechanics class too.

w/o grammer you lose logical sentence structure...any particular word at a certain place in a sentence means a specific thing. we all get lazy in talking and writing at times but when communication really matters you have to have a set of rules to fall back on so that you know wtf each other is saying

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are no easy or clear cut solutions to the educational problem, never have been, never will be.
Fact is, I don't think that there is even a defined goal or even a defined problem.

[bodhitree]

Would you want a president with virtually no experience to lead your country?


Abraham Lincoln only had one term as a United States senator before becoming president.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Abraham Lincoln only had one term as a United States senator before becoming president.

And look how his term ended :D

[1bad65]

Most recent Presidents have been Governors rather than US Senators.

[AJM]

This is a good topic. I'm all about standards long as it doesn't become an industry. Certification and periodic testing seems to make sense in any technical trade. Education is an ongoing thing.
Choices of reading material has been controversial in schools as long as I can remember. Some of the books banned when I was a child are now allowed or required reading. Conversely some of the required reading when I was in shool is now banned in a lot of school systems.
I think children mostly need the fundamentals of reading and writing coherently in a language and to understand simple mathematics, at least arithmatic and geometry as well as simple chemistry and biology. Teaching a child how to learn seems more important to me than what to learn in the long run.
"When i think back on all the cr@p I learned in High School, It's a wonder I can think at all...." Paul Simon, from the song Kodachrome

[bodhitree]

i'm definitely not well versed in all the ins and outs of this but it seems like a large part of the problem is that no one is allowed to say that little johhny just isn't smart enough to go to college.

not everyone is born with the same ability to be good at everything...not everyone is equal in thier aptitude for different things.

whatever happened to votech? when I was in HS there were guys that were building houses...every year the vocational classes built a house and sold it. I think there was a mechanics class too.

w/o grammer you lose logical sentence structure...any particular word at a certain place in a sentence means a specific thing. we all get lazy in talking and writing at times but when communication really matters you have to have a set of rules to fall back on so that you know wtf each other is saying


I completely agree about vo-tech programs. Nowadays it seems everybody MUST go to college, while for some people learning vo-tech skills is better suited for them, thus making them more productive members of our workforce.

Our country needs automechanics, butchers, welders, etc., and people could be coming out of vo-tech programs ready to start earning a living in these fields, rather than having them coast through university life.

[Oso]

we need everyone in every capacity.

and don't get me started on college. I've met very few people that went to college and then went on to work in their area of study. college right after high school seems to be just an extension of high school but with more alcohol and sex.

I argued with a friend of mine over her son. He had some emotional issues that caused periods of anger and depression as an early teen but got control over it and did really well in HS. So, of course he had to go to college. I had been saying that I felt he would benefit from getting a part time job in HS but no, he had to focus on his grades. Well, he went off to college, stayed in his room and played games the entire semester and flunked every class. After the first month, he never even went to class. Now, he's working and taking the first of several course to get Microsoft certified w/o the three R's and will probably do well.

enh, not a terribly cohesive point there...I think that if he had worked some in HS he would have gotten a better appreciation for time in general and if he had gotten the right job it might have steered him closer to what he wanted to do instead of wasting money in a semester of the three R's. I know that's why I didn't even think about college: I was tired of people telling me what to read and how to write about it.

[unkokusai]

I know that's why I didn't even think about college: I was tired of people telling me what to read and how to write about it.


That's why? Because you didn't want people telling you what to do?

[Oso]

no. I think that it's time for a revamping of what is considered literature and 'good' books. Some of the crap we have to read in HS is ridiculous.

[unkokusai]

no. I think that it's time for a revamping of what is considered literature and 'good' books. Some of the crap we have to read in HS is ridiculous.



Like what?

[Oso]

like reading Shakespeare out loud in class...an English class, not a drama class.
Shakespeare was never written to be read but seen/heard.

you name it, pretty much everything I had to read in HS, I hated. There is not enough diversity in the curriculum to catch a larger percentage of students therefore less people get turned on to reading. I pretty much believe that it doesn't really matter what you read as long as you read.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Shakespeare, the greatest writer in the English language is 'crap'?

Wow, just wow....

LOL !
Dude, read what he wrote...


like reading Shakespeare out loud in class...an English class, not a drama class.
Shakespeare was never written to be read but seen/heard.

[Nick Forrer]

I pretty much believe that it doesn't really matter what you read as long as you read.

Are you joking? There's no qualitative difference between D H Lawrence and J K Rowling?

[Oso]

sorry, I don't think he's crap...reading him aloud in an english class where the majority of students could give two cents is crap. Those kids aren't going to get turned on to him at all in that situation and will get more turned off of the idea of reading, drama and some old dead white guy.

I personally like most shakespeare I've seen. However, if I did think he was crap, it would be ok too. I like a lot of other stuff that is written well. That's what matters. Your type of opinion that someone else thinks something you like to read is crap is part of the problem.

[Oso]

yea, you're right about what I wrote...see my 'lazy' comment earlier :)

that's why I apologized and corrected

[SimonM]

no. I think that it's time for a revamping of what is considered literature and 'good' books. Some of the crap we have to read in HS is ridiculous.

I minored in English in university. We have much better crap to read there. :D

[Oso]

Are you joking? There's no qualitative difference between D H Lawrence and J K Rowling?

not really.

why is DHL better than JKR?

I believe that more kids will grow up to read more by being exposed to something fun to read like JKR (I'm assuming that it's fun to read, I've never read them) than by DHL. Reading and reading MORE is bound to be better than not reading at all.

Much of what is considered 'good' is dated for here and now. Kids aren't going to relate to a story set in an environment they don't get.

[Oso]

Kids should only read what they want to read? Most kids would like to eat nothing but junk food. Is that an argument for giving them Mcdonalds all day?

No, of course not.



Shakespeares themes and subjects are universal and timeless. Thats the whole point of them. They dont just reflect Tudor England. Maybe you missed that.

Ok, fine. but if it's boring as hell for a 21st century kid to read then they won't get it either. There is not enough diversity to reach the most number of kids possible.

I would say the problem is that peoples personal likes and dislikes determine what they feel should be taught in schools (as in your case) rather than looking at more objective criteria.

I agree wholeheartedly. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

We read Shakespeare in HS in Portugal, along with Camoes of course.
Had zero to do with language skills obviously and all to do with great literature.

[SimonM]

The language in Shakespeare is difficult...but thats an argument for, not against it.


I've never found the language in Shakespeare to be difficult. Chaucer is a bit of a challenge. The "green knight" poet more so... Shakespeare - easy.
:cool:

[Merryprankster]

Funny the accountability thing came up.

The fundamental problem I have with No Child Left Behind is that it places far too much weight on quantifying SKILL SETS, not education. Evaluation of training is quantifiable; I can tell you easily if somebody got this or that definition wrong, or spelled a word badly, or got the math wrong, etc.

What about writing an essay or a theme? Do they do that in a No Child test? Critical reasoning? Analogies? etc....

No Child is an artifact of the industrial age, IMO, where that type of training may have been the right answer. And maybe such tests are still valuable up until, say, the age of 8 or 10.

Evaluation of education is far fuzzier. It's a qualitative thing. What makes a good essay or theme? The judgment of "experts." Is your argument flawed? Who can tell you? Why is it flawed.....

We're obsessed in this country with evaluating things quantitatively. But, a significant portion of the knowledge we possess and pass on is qualitative AND, much of it is tacit in nature. You cannot explicate tacit knowledge for a variety of reasons, but the impact of that knowledge often makes the difference between something bad and something good. Translations come immediately to mind. What makes a good translation is hardly a quantitative thing. But wars could be fought over bad ones.

And so, my point is that yes, the evaluation is SUBJECTIVE, but that is the nature of knowledge. People are considered experts in their field not because of an education or training pre-requisite, but because other people have judged them to be experts. That is qualitative evaluation, hands down. And a social animals, we are exquisitely equipped to make those types of qualitative judgments...if we weren't, google wouldn't work.

For accountability with teachers I'd rather see the following:

1. Increased pay
2. The trade off is that tenure is unattainable until, say, your 10th year....
3. Tenure is reserved for the top 50% of performers IN THE STATE (not the school, to avoid school jumping for tenure).
4. An evaluation system, much like the military officer FITREP or Officer Evaluation form, or the federal government Personnel evaluations, that includes quantitative rankings in performance dimensions, coupled with strong qualitative evaluations describing performance and personal qualities that contribute to performance. Semi-Annual for teachers under 4 years experience. Annual thereafter until retirement.
5. The bottom 15% of teachers each year are offered "remedial" help. Continued performance in that category results in being fired. If this occurs when you are tenured, your tenure is suspended for one year, pending re-evaluation. If you still can't hack it, goodbye.
6. Incentive pay for vital subjects

Anybody else want to add to this list?

[Oso]

I never said that a book shouldn't be educational...just that it should actually interest the student. As far as vocabulary goes I agree but Shakespeare, DHL, ****ens or any of them don't have the market cornered on vocabulary.

What if all a kid wants to read is tech manuals? They certainly have a large number of words that are unique.

I agree that it's the teachers role to do just what you say and that is a problem unto itself.

SimonM: ok, fine but it's safe to assume that you're of at least average intelligence.

My point is about reading. The more kids read the better the chance that they will be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. It doesn't matter how 'good' something is or isn't if it can get them reading at all.

I'm out for the day.

[Oso]

Funny the accountability thing came up.


[snip]


Anybody else want to add to this list?

money is the root. teachers should be paid more for sure.

[Merryprankster]

Oso, true, but I caveat it.

Money without accountability is the root.

The accountability thing needs to apply to the children as well. Having several teachers for friends gives you an interesting outlook. All classrooms need to operate on the following premise:

"All children have a right to learn, but not at the expense of their peers' right to learn."

Too many teachers are not allowed to control their classrooms.

[Oso]

right on. but that gets down to the PC aspect of determining/deciding that a child needs to be routed a different direction due to aptitude (and attitude as well) which is something teachers and administrators are not allowed to do in public schools.

I worked in a private school for 5 years and, at least in this one, only kids with the right aptitude are even admitted and if they end up with the wrong attitude thay are booted. I don't agree with the booting but do agree that more attention needs to be who/what these kids are as individuals...argh...not enough time to express myself better....

[bodhitree]

Literature is NOT for everyone, but some who do get literature need some encouragement. That's what makes a great teacher great, the ability to spark interest in the topic. Literature certainly helps develop overall critical thinking, but again, critical thinking is not for everyone.


Back to the Vo-tech idea from before, I actually work at an interesting educational institution (which I will not name, however someone from Pittsburgh may know what I'm talking about). This program is an adult vocational education program. We have programs in horticulture technology, pharmacy tech, chem lab technician, medical coding, medical claims processing, office technology and culinary arts. The school is a non-profit and students pay nothing out of pocket to attend (although government money may be taken if a student is eligible).

How does that work?

We have partnerships with the local industries. There are many chemical companies in the region, many of whom are our corporate contributors. They contribute money to us, we design a curriculum around their needs and they get workers trained to their exact needs. It's a win win for the school and the business. It's also an example of how public and private interests can work for the good of everyone.

Our school was originally started to help out of work economically disadvantaged people. Now anyone can attend. We also have a GED program, but after that 100% of our time and resources are dedicated to training the students for their career, placement, and professional development. Our library is very concentrated, and other than a few novels that were donated almost everything is about the careers we teach. Another thing is we expect a lot from our students, and if a student isn’t living up to expectations they are removed, and once you’re gone, you’re gone. We rarely have problems though, as our teachers and staff are very supportive.

The model of our school is being emulated in other cities, and we have a ‘replication’ department to help these schools with getting set up. Many of our students come from tough backgrounds. Some have criminal records, some just never had an opportunity, some are housewives who never worked, and some are just people looking to change careers. It’s a great pleasure to see people change their lives by changing their earning potential.

Our school is also not for everyone, but it is an example of something positive happening in education in the United States.

[Black Jack II]

1. Increased pay
2. The trade off is that tenure is unattainable until, say, your 10th year....
3. Tenure is reserved for the top 50% of performers IN THE STATE (not the school, to avoid school jumping for tenure).
4. An evaluation system, much like the military officer FITREP or Officer Evaluation form, or the federal government Personnel evaluations, that includes quantitative rankings in performance dimensions, coupled with strong qualitative evaluations describing performance and personal qualities that contribute to performance. Semi-Annual for teachers under 4 years experience. Annual thereafter until retirement.
5. The bottom 15% of teachers each year are offered "remedial" help. Continued performance in that category results in being fired. If this occurs when you are tenured, your tenure is suspended for one year, pending re-evaluation. If you still can't hack it, goodbye.
6. Incentive pay for vital subjects

Good list, though personally I would of pushed tenure up to the 15th year of teaching.

[unkokusai]

like reading Shakespeare out loud in class...an English class, not a drama class.
Shakespeare was never written to be read but seen/heard.


.................................................. .


WTF?




you name it, pretty much everything I had to read in HS, I hated.



Ok, so the problem was really you then.

[unkokusai]

I pretty much believe that it doesn't really matter what you read as long as you read.



Seriously? :confused:

[Oso]

yea, seriously...as opposed to not reading at all. getting someone to like reading anything is the first step to getting them to read for education or pleasure.

"WTF" what?

and, yea, the problem was me. thanks for making my point :)

[unkokusai]

Literature certainly helps develop overall critical thinking, but again, critical thinking is not for everyone.



........................wtf?!

[unkokusai]

yea, seriously...as opposed to not reading at all. getting someone to like reading anything is the first step to getting them to read for education or pleasure.



:confused:



What age group are you talking about?

[bodhitree]

........................wtf?!


Careers that don't require critical thinking

postal delivery

pizza delivery

waste management (at least the guys in the truck)

assembly line

window washing

There is no reason people who work in these capacities need to have read the Trail or A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man or Crime and Punishment.

If they are interested, that's great but it's not necessary....

[bodhitree]

yea, seriously...as opposed to not reading at all. getting someone to like reading anything is the first step to getting them to read for education or pleasure.


It's a shame but it's true, any book that gets kids away from the television or playstation is a good thing.

[unkokusai]

What about writing an essay or a theme? Do they do that in a No Child test? Critical reasoning? Analogies? etc....



The actual tests vary from state to state, but if there is a state test that doesn't include the above I'd like to see it.

[unkokusai]

Careers that don't require critical thinking

postal delivery

pizza delivery

waste management (at least the guys in the truck)

assembly line

window washing
....



I disagree.

[bodhitree]

I disagree.


I would love it if everyone had critical thinking abilities, but I don't think everyone does. I just think an approach that realizes that we are all different, with different abilities and talents should take that into account.

Pretty much what I'm saying is not everyone is born to be an academic, and vocational options should be available to those who are not, because they should still be skilled part of our workforce.


I can understand where you are coming from though.....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bah, critical thinking !
Over used crap that people spew out to justify that their crap is better than someone else's crap.
Puny Mortals.

[Oso]

:confused:



What age group are you talking about?

mostly HS but I don't think it matters...or maybe it matters more earlier. I know I started reading 'big books' earlier than most but certainly you have to get kids reading by MS or they are probably lost already.

[unkokusai]

Doesn't that post contradict itself?

[Oso]

yea, I thought that was obvious I changed my mind about the first part of what I said.

I think it's hard to say when it's too late to have captured the mind of a child as far as anything goes. IME, there is a point where they start making decisions about things and there is not much you can do to change the path they start walking.

Due to personal experience, I'm a huge believer in reading as a fundamental tool in preparing a child to start making good decisions...and yes, it doesn't matter what they are reading to begin with or even at all. But, if they don't start reading something they'll never read anything that just might be :rolleyes:'good':rolleyes:

FWIW, I spent 3 1/2 years as a bookseller and have several success stories where parents came in desperate because their child wouldn't read and it was simply because they were interested in the subjects they were being asked to read. So, I helped them find stuff they were interested in.

I also lived with an english major for 7 years while she was doing her undergrad and graduate studies. One of her favorite topics was the benefit of trash romance novels in the lives of a certain class of women. I'll let ya'll assume what you will about that statement :)

{oh, heaven's...he done done it now: saying that people are of different classes....}

oh, yea, this chick had a bad procrastination issue and I spent more than one occasion typing the final copy of her papers (I typed faster and I'm just that type of guy :cool: ) so, if nothing else there was a fair amount of osmosis happening.

[unkokusai]

So you think that reading comic books, or letters to Penthouse, or some poorly-written hack novel is just as useful for a child's education as reading the classics?

Do you have this same 'interesting' attitude toward other subjects? Should students only do math they 'like?' Should they only study science that is interesting to them? Should they only show up at school at all when they feel like it? How far does this attitude go?

[Oso]

what they read should be age appropriate of course...though what boy didn't read Penthouse letters every chance he got?

you seem to be missing my point and I'll say it again just one more time:

ANYTHING that gets someone reading versus not ever reading is OK.


and no, i don't feel the same about math or science...those are 'hard' subjects with facts and stuff. :)

but, if the kid isn't reading, they are probably not going to get very far in math or science are they?


Should students only do math they 'like?'

no, they should progress through the levels as far as they can go. if they top out at Algebra then they most likely won't make a very good astrophysicist. if they top out at 2+2=4 then they need to be directed (and tested somehow) someplace they can do well...the vocational direction perhaps, though they won't get far as a carpenter or electrician w/o better then basic math. they could be a plumber though, that's pretty easy...I know ;)


Should they only study science that is interesting to them?

same as math.


Should they only show up at school at all when they feel like it?

That's debatable as well. Certainly through 8th grade but if they are not academically oriented at all then a trade school will do.


How far does this attitude go?

Are you getting fresh with me????? :D

[unkokusai]

Your educational theories are a great way to promote laziness, underachievement, and virtually no standards at all.

[Oso]

no, they aren't.

the point has already been made by others that not everyone is suited for academia.

once someone is identified as that type of person and what they are suited for is identified then they are encouraged to work towards those goals.

that's when lazy might come in to play but anyone is capable of laziness irrelevent of whether they dig Shakespeare or not.

There should definitely be standards. It is by those standards that you determine what someone might best be suited for.

well, I'm done beating this horse...it's been fun, have a nice day! :)

[Mr Punch]

Careers that don't require critical thinking

postal delivery

pizza delivery

waste management (at least the guys in the truck)

assembly line

window washing

There is no reason people who work in these capacities need to have read the Trail or A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man or Crime and Punishment.

If they are interested, that's great but it's not necessary....1) HTF is pizza delivery a career?

2) A postal delivery guy who has some critical thinking abilities may be able to spot the next letter-bomb; a window-washer with critical thinking abilities may be able to spot when one of his elderly customers isn't well; any of the above 'careers' could be improved by someone with working knowledge of them [i]and critical thinking abilities[i]... personally I can't think of one job where critical thinking abilities would be a minus, and I'd prefer to live in a society where everybody uses their head - I can't help but think it'd be safer and more caring.

3) Further to that, since I don't really believe that a) democracy works as such, or b) democratic government is a 'human right' to be given rather than a system to be worked at by members of that democracy, I would even propose that people who don't pass a certain level of critical thinking assessment shouldn't be allowed to vote. :eek:

[Oso]

1) HTF is pizza delivery a career?

If it suits the individual and they make enough money to support themselves in the manner they wish then why not?

2) A postal delivery guy who has some critical thinking abilities may be able to spot the next letter-bomb; a window-washer with critical thinking abilities may be able to spot when one of his elderly customers isn't well; any of the above 'careers' could be improved by someone with working knowledge of them [i]and critical thinking abilities[i]... personally I can't think of one job where critical thinking abilities would be a minus, and I'd prefer to live in a society where everybody uses their head - I can't help but think it'd be safer and more caring.

yea, it'd be nice but not likely...ever.

3) Further to that, since I don't really believe that a) democracy works as such, or b) democratic government is a 'human right' to be given rather than a system to be worked at by members of that democracy, I would even propose that people who don't pass a certain level of critical thinking assessment shouldn't be allowed to vote. :eek:

it's not the right time to be sober
now the idiots have taken over
spreading like a social cancer, is there an answer?

Mensa membership conceding
tell me why and how are all the stupid people breeding
Watson, it's really elementary
the industrial revolution
has flipped the ***** on evolution
the benevolent and wise are being thwarted, ostracized, what a bummer
the world keeps getting dumber
insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason

darwin's rollin over in his coffin
the fittest are surviving much less often
now everything seems to be reversing, and it's worsening
someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool
now angry mob mentality's no longer the exception, it's the rule
and im startin to feel a lot like charlton heston
stranded on a primate planet
apes and orangutans that ran it to the ground
with generals and the armies that obeyed them
followers following fables
philosophies that enable them to rule without regard

there's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
political scientists get the same one vote as some Arkansas inbred
majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions

what are we left with?
a nation of god-fearing pregnant nationalists
who feel it's their duty to populate the homeland
pass on traditions
how to get ahead religions
And prosperity via simpleton culture

:D

[bodhitree]

It does seem like in this country the people who are the most stupid also breed the most. People like Jerry Springer or Maury guests. Our future is doomed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Every country has it shares of A-holes, don't worry to much about them, worry more about the so-called "educated masses" that can't see the forest from, the trees, those that advocate "the ends justify the means", those that nutride whatever is convenient at the time for their comfort level.

[Oso]

RAOFLMAO....


i just tried to read 'nutride' as 'newtreed' and was like 'wtf is he saying'.....lol....

[GeneChing]

...this thread came up when I searched "Cambridge". It's an amusing discussion, so I ttted it with something irrelevant.

Martial arts move into Cambridge boardrooms (http://www.cambridgefirst.co.uk/news/martial_arts_move_into_cambridge_boardrooms_1_7593 78)
Tuesday, 4 January, 2011
7:00 AM

Martial arts are set to move into Cambridge boardrooms as part of a new initiative to improve the performance of high-ranking business executives.

Directors and senior managers are being offered the chance to learn lessons from the world of martial arts and apply them in the office – and they don’t even have to leave their desks.

The man behind the scheme is Massimo Gaetani, 45, a businessman and qualified business coach who also has about 30 years’ martial arts experience. In his spare time he runs the Cambridge–based martial arts club Carisma.

He is also the official coach to the kickboxing teams at both the University of Cambridge and Anglia Ruskin University.

“Executive coaching is all about helping yourself to excel by improving your personal performance, which is exactly what we do in martial arts,” said Mr Gaetani, managing director of MaGa Coaching.

“Martial arts offer a holistic way to improve yourself. It’s a way of helping people to improve themselves but not just from a physical point of view.”