What recognition?

[LoneTiger108]

A conversation I had recently has inspired this thread.

Basically, who's who in the Wing Chun world? Who has 'authority'?

Are there any official 'governing bodies' in the USA or UK? If not, why not? If so, please share a link!

Does everybody rely on a connection or two to Hong Kong or the mainland? If so, are any of these 'associations' linked or supported by the Peoples Republic of China?

Has your school received any 'formal recognition' for your work?

It would be nice to hear from anyone...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Can, meet worms.
LOL !

Organized MA is almost as bad as Organized Religion.

[LoneTiger108]

Organized MA is almost as bad as Organized Religion.

It that as bad as 'unorganized' Martial Art?

Does recognition matter? Why a can of worms??

[sanjuro_ronin]

It that as bad as 'unorganized' Martial Art?

Does recognition matter? Why a can of worms??

Unless you make a given MA a "sport" oriented MA, like Judo, Boxing, Wreslting and TKD, and make a central organization ( with its local jurisdictions to enforce the International rules) with clear cut goals, why do you want/need an "organization" ?

Its a can of worms because, not only is there no central organization in WC, since this is a WC thread, there NEVER has been.
Heck I don't see how there ever could be !
You've seen the arguments we've had here over the most insignificant of things, imagine over something important !!

[LoneTiger108]

You've seen the arguments we've had here over the most insignificant of things, imagine over something important !!

Fair point.

Is it important though? Do people actually WANT to unify across the globe? And how exactly can such a thing begin at least?

I know each family has their way but how do you know for sure a Sifu is who they say they are? What even gives us the confidence to teach and represent Wing Chun?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fair point.

Is it important though? Do people actually WANT to unify across the globe? And how exactly can such a thing begin at least?

I know each family has their way but how do you know for sure a Sifu is who they say they are? What even gives us the confidence to teach and represent Wing Chun?

Outside of something like recognized sports events, why would you want/need a global organization?
Standardized techniques?
Never gonna happen.
Standardized teaching curriculums?
Never gonna happen.

First you would need to get the heads of the different linages together ( a task unto itself since within those very lineages there are lineage issues already), then you need to appoint a central core of members, then agree upon rules and testing procedures, then agree upon wither competition is a goal and if yes, at what level.
Etc, etc.

[LoneTiger108]

First you would need to get the heads of the different linages together ( a task unto itself since within those very lineages there are lineage issues already), then you need to appoint a central core of members, then agree upon rules and testing procedures, then agree upon wither competition is a goal and if yes, at what level.
Etc, etc.

Interesting.

Not so much an issue for our Lee Shing Family, as all are talking and in reference to what you mentioned:

Standardized techniques?
Already happened.
Standardized teaching curriculums?
Already happened.

Recognized individually?
Already happened.
Head of Family?
A difficult one!

Still, we are a small family in comparison but I still feel a big link with Ip Family practitioners. We are all so similar yet have unique specialities.

Why will 'one body' never exist?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Interesting.

Not so much an issue for our Lee Shing Family, as all are talking and in reference to what you mentioned:

Standardized techniques?
Already happened.
Standardized teaching curriculums?
Already happened.

Recognized individually?
Already happened.
Head of Family?
A difficult one!

Still, we are a small family in comparison but I still feel a big link with Ip Family practitioners. We are all so similar yet have unique specialities.

Why will 'one body' never exist?

Great, what about the other lineages and how THEY view YOUR techniques and curriculums ?

[LoneTiger108]

Great, what about the other lineages and how THEY view YOUR techniques and curriculums ?

Why is that an issue?

Acceptence is the key word here and I definately can accept the fact that Ip Family descendents are definately more 'public' and they teach the same as far as I can see. More precise and simplified sometimes, but almost always the same principles.

I wouldn't want to use one families curriculums or images to control others'. That's been tried and tested and look where we're all at. Its just about recognition, or even standing together to get such recognition.

How one teaches in comparison to another is just petty. It's WHAT they're teaching that's important, and I think we'd all call it Wing Chun (in all it's differing spellings!)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why is that an issue?

Acceptence is the key word here and I definately can accept the fact that Ip Family descendents are definately more 'public' and they teach the same as far as I can see. More precise and simplified sometimes, but almost always the same principles.

I wouldn't want to use one families curriculums or images to control others'. That's been tried and tested and look where we're all at. Its just about recognition, or even standing together to get such recognition.

How one teaches in comparison to another is just petty. It's WHAT they're teaching that's important, and I think we'd all call it Wing Chun (in all it's differing spellings!)

Look at what happened with TKD when they wanted a "central governing body".
When you start off from the beginning, like Judo, thats; one thing.
Playing catch-up is another.

If you want a central governing body that will recognize legit instructor and sanction them, then you need a standardized curriculum for all members, which means that the Wooden Dummy form is like this, period.
A bong sao is done like this, period.
The 3 main forms are done like this, period.
No variations, no interpretations.

[TenTigers]

I personally, would never want that to happen. What if my method completely goes against whatthe "authority" is preaching?
Usuallly the larger organizations which would want to set themselves up as a governing body end up being the ones that built their reps on magazine articles, books, and aligning with other teachers forming a "mutual admiration club"
this does not neccesarally mean that the quality is there. There are many "unknowns" who do not seek the limelight, but prefer to teach a small group of dedicated students. Many of these teachers posess greater skill and knowledge than the "names'

[sanjuro_ronin]

I personally, would never want that to happen. What if my method completely goes against whatthe "authority" is preaching?
Usuallly the larger organizations which would want to set themselves up as a governing body end up being the ones that built their reps on magazine articles, books, and aligning with other teachers forming a "mutual admiration club"
this does not neccesarally mean that the quality is there. There are many "unknowns" who do not seek the limelight, but prefer to teach a small group of dedicated students. Many of these teachers posess greater skill and knowledge than the "names'

TT has pinky gripped the correct by the prostate gland.

[couch]

Unlike other MA, WC is not a cookie-cutter MA. It develops attributes in a certain curriculum that can be interpreted several different ways.

That's why it's Cheung's Wing Chun, Fong's Wing Chun, Yo Mamma's Wing Chun. Once I teach the curriculum to someone, it's theirs to do with whatever they please. Hopefully, they will make it their own.

I call my group Wing Chun Exchange...because when we all get together, it's just an exchange. Like doing Chi Sau with someone who has a joint-lock background...they will constantly see more in that realm than me. Who am I to say to them: don't do that...that's not Wing Chun. How would we ever grow?

Best,
Kenton

[LoneTiger108]

Look at what happened with TKD when they wanted a "central governing body".
When you start off from the beginning, like Judo, thats; one thing.
Playing catch-up is another.

Agreed!


If you want a central governing body that will recognize legit instructor and sanction them, then you need a standardized curriculum for all members, which means that the Wooden Dummy form is like this, period.
A bong sao is done like this, period.
The 3 main forms are done like this, period.
No variations, no interpretations.

Wasn't that what certain tapes were made for by Ip Man? This isn't a question of standardization and stop there. It's like saying, 'this is the minimum standard' what else have you developed?? What else were you taught directly/indirectly?


There are many "unknowns" who do not seek the limelight, but prefer to teach a small group of dedicated students. Many of these teachers posess greater skill and knowledge than the "names'

In your opinion? Study groups are fine. I want to know how we can all sit together, large and small, not for the profit but for the whole integrity thing!

Rene had a great idea in his site W1NG.com...

[KPM]

I personally, would never want that to happen. What if my method completely goes against whatthe "authority" is preaching?
Usuallly the larger organizations which would want to set themselves up as a governing body end up being the ones that built their reps on magazine articles, books, and aligning with other teachers forming a "mutual admiration club"
this does not neccesarally mean that the quality is there. There are many "unknowns" who do not seek the limelight, but prefer to teach a small group of dedicated students. Many of these teachers posess greater skill and knowledge than the "names'

My sentiments exactly!! :)

[LoneTiger108]

I personally, would never want that to happen. What if my method completely goes against whatthe "authority" is preaching?

Differences in teaching methods, to me, is not the issue. Differences related to growth are a good thing.

I'm thinking more of a general code of conduct that we can all relate to. Having similar goals is something I believe most of us already share, if not all.

How can we make Wig Chun a nationally recognized activitiy?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that only "sport oriented" systems need something like this, outside that, MA are better left for smaller study groups and things like that.
The MA were never for the masses anyways.

[LoneTiger108]

I think that only "sport oriented" systems need something like this, outside that, MA are better left for smaller study groups and things like that.
The MA were never for the masses anyways.

Good point, but at some time or another after years of dedication and training we all must feel that recognition would be good for us and our students.

How would a practitioner within a smaller group be recognized in a more traditional fashion without entering the sporting domain?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How would a practitioner within a smaller group be recognized in a more traditional fashion without entering the sporting domain?
By all the heads of his vanquished enemies, proudly displayed in his wine cellar.
:D

[LoneTiger108]

:eek::eek::D

To be recognized by the police is a different issue...

[sanjuro_ronin]

:eek::eek::D

To be recognized by the police is a different issue...

Picky, picky...
You said traditional...

[LoneTiger108]

:cool: So I did.

Better get chopping then? :mad:

[UKBBC]

How would a practitioner within a smaller group be recognized in a more traditional fashion without entering the sporting domain?

Set up a school in the ghetto and proudly display a load of money on the table. If you can protect that stash day in and day out without guns or cops, you are sorted.

[KPM]

How would a practitioner within a smaller group be recognized in a more traditional fashion without entering the sporting domain?

What is a "more traditional fashion"? What kind of recognition are you talking about? For what purpose? If you want recognition, open a martial arts school and do good work for the community. Keep the kids off the street and teach them discipline and respect. Then recognition will come that actually has some value. But that's independant of any specific art or system.

[bennyvt]

this seams to be a problem with all organizations. The main thing is, most have to change things to make it more sell-able to keep money coming in. I know at my school is was a struggle to get most people to understand that doing things a hundred times is better then learning a hundred things you cant really do.
Nearly all organizations split over internal problems, even the VTAA in hong kong broke up for a while there.
The main problem now is that without some sort of association, insurance in my country is heaps more expensive. By joining certain groups this can lower the bill and make it easier to get.

[Liddel]

I think Ten tigers smashed it out of the ball park.

History has shown its a difficult task IMO. Even if you do implement this idea from the start of a lineage style etc.

Even in the days when we actually had a 'head' of a lineage (GM Ip) from what ive been told of my Sifus experiences, things got out of hand and began to segment leading to things falling aprt.

A few examples -

Towards the end of his life GM Ip was overridden and had his opinions and standards changed (better or worse, i offer no opinion) by others that took over control of the org/school.

My sifu found him crying one time because people were not respecting his opinion on who would represent them in a compition....

As far as standards go - I was also told about a discussion over Yum Cha where LS TST LY and WSL were discussing with Gm Ip how long SLT should take to preform. Everyone had a differnt answer and GM IP wouldnt say one way or the other so as to not to offend those that were not (percieved as being) right.

later things fell apart, people went thier own way....

Look at the more modern examples also... LT's org splintering, others changing due to politics (so ive heard)..

So history shows IMHO that its not that bennificial to have an overall governing body for the art of Wing Chun and in reality it only serves the few that have controll therefore opinoin with weight.

Thats my cynical view LOL. ;)

DREW

[anerlich]

Basically, who's who in the Wing Chun world? Who has 'authority'?

Either anyone that starts an organisation or no one or somewhere in between, depending on your opinion.


Are there any official 'governing bodies' in the USA or UK? If not, why not? If so, please share a link!

I don't believe so, and in any case being Australian I have no interest in what happens in such backwaters ;)


Does everybody rely on a connection or two to Hong Kong or the mainland?

I guess so, but since my instructor broke away from his, its something of a moot point.


If so, are any of these 'associations' linked or supported by the Peoples Republic of China?

Why would anyone care (other than the Chinese, I guess)?


Has your school received any 'formal recognition' for your work?

Other than regular features in MA rags, not really. We are accredited by the government to teach full time students with certain financial benefits and tax breaks. To do that we had to achieve MA industry certification (which becomes the same argument on a wider scale). There is a Federation of Australian Kung Fu and Wu Shu organisations. We are not part of that (due, IIRC to longstanding feud and power struggles between my teacher's teacher and its president, SNAFU). That organisation relies a lot on Wu Shu, the sport, for its profile and cohesiveness.

A BJJ school I attended for a while won a local small business award. Not MA exceelence perhaps (though they were pretty good at that too) but it least it shows they can run a successful business their customers and the community like.

I got involved in a long argument on here about certification before that I don't care to revisit. Basically, though, we've affiliated with a number of high profile karateka (karate iare not ideal organisation wise but IMO are much better organised than WC, not that that's a big ask) in an MA umbrella organisation, which certifies coaches to a number of levels set down by the State and Federal governments here. If you have a certified coach, your prospective know they are going to be taught by someone who has a basic understanding of first aid, OH&S, and general principles of fitness, sports training and injury prevention.

You don't have to do this to teach martial arts - any unqualified moron can do that, and maybe too many do, YMMV. However, you do need affiliation with a recognised body like the afore mentiond KungFu-WuShu body to be able to run classes in schools or other government-owned premises. We've never run classes at such places.

WC won't get organised until some of its senior practitioners lose their egos and recognise they're living in the 21st century global village and not feudal China.

Even then, the general public and givernment see us as just another flavour or multifaceted martial arts and have no interest in the distinctions between one KF style and another.

IMO, if you want to be recognised, cultivate your peer martial artists outside WC and organise with them. That way you don't have to deal with the internicine struggles which plague WC.