sword fighting

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Does anyone know any good web site showing application of sword fighting or weapons?

2. In western fencing after you did the lounge and miss your target, you are open to a counter attack to your knee or body. What is the best defence you would use to stop yourself from getting hit after doing the lunge?

3. Are you allow to step to one side and hit your opponent's chest or back, while he/ she is doing/after the lounge?
Or is this against the fencing rule?

4. What is the best defence against a lunge?


Thank you
Hitman

[Lucas]

You seem to be speaking from a western fencing sport angle.

I have never studied western fencing.

For a straight lunge attack against me, I would rely on footwork and parry.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dear all,
Does anyone know any good web site showing application of sword fighting or weapons?

2. In western fencing after you did the lounge and miss your target, you are open to a counter attack to your knee or body. What is the best defence you would use to stop yourself from getting hit after doing the lunge?

3. Are you allow to step to one side and hit your opponent's chest or back, while he/ she is doing/after the lounge?
Or is this against the fencing rule?

4. What is the best defence against a lunge?


Thank you
Hitman

Which rules and which weapons are you referring too?

[SimonM]

I did some olympic rules foil fencing WAAAY back (like... a decade and a half ago) and from my vague reccollection the best defense against the lunge was parry and riposte.

As for lunge leaving your knee open, well, yeah.

But in the sports where they do the biggest lunges frequently the knee isn't a valid target.

And I do still ahem... fondly, yes that's the word, recall the canada vs. france bronze medal match in women's team fencing from the 2004 olympics where one of the french women DID get hit in the knee and cried blue murder over it while rolling around on the ground in agony.

Me: when I sword fight it's usually with heavier cut-and-thrust weapons like the jian (which is technically cut-and-thrust even if more thrust than cut) and european longswords and I'd fight more defensively and wouldn't dive into a lunge unless I was **** sure I'd hit my opponent without getting tagged back.

[Oso]

yea, what rules?

but I'd say the answer to 2 would be something compact with a punch ;)

or a buckler or parrying dagger...main gauche????

[Hitman]

Dear all,

I am referring to Epee. I do not know any rule about Epee. This is what I find on Wikipedia.

"Épée - The weapon is similar to a foil (compared to a sabre), but has a stiffer blade that is V-shaped in cross-section, has a larger bell guard, and is heavier. The technique however, is somewhat different, as there are no rules regarding priority and right-of-way. In addition, the entire body area is a valid target area."

If the whole body is the target, then am I correct to said that you can attack the back, arm and knee?

Thank you
Hitman

[mkriii]

Dear all,
Does anyone know any good web site showing application of sword fighting or weapons?

4. What is the best defence against a lunge?

Thank you Hitman

The best defense of course is to not be there. But possibly stepping backward so that he can't reach you with the thrust. This would cause him to be off balance giving you the chance to counter attack.

[mkriii]

Dear all,

I am referring to Epee.
Thank you
Hitman


Is that creole for epee toufe (joke), like crawfish eppeetoufe'........lol. You might not get that joke seeing your from England (not meaning it as an insult).

[SimonM]

mkriii: I rather think that anyone finding themselves in a sword fight in this day and age has likely advanced beyond the point where "don't be there". I mean it's not like people bring their rapiers to the bar with them when they go drinking.

[Lucas]

I mean it's not like people bring their rapiers to the bar with them when they go drinking.

So THATS why everyone looks at me funny when I go to the bar....

[SimonM]

Everybody knows the proper etiquette is "nothing longer than a small sword in any public place" geez, didn't you get the memmo?

[David Jamieson]

thrust, slash, draw, and parry. This is what all swords do regardless of where they come from.

thrusting while standing on one leg doesn't make the blade purpose significantly different.

also a fencer will become adept quickly at any blade which shares similarity to those s/he is accustomed to as a sportive fencer.

Fencing instruction will teach you a lot about how to use a blade weapon properly and safely.

[SimonM]

Actually I don't like the thrusting while standing on one leg thing and tend not to do it. :P

What I meant was that I felt the properties of the sabre would give it a different feel from the jian... regardless of the simmilarity of all swords in basic technique.

Fencing was my first foray into martial arts and although it was long ago it did leave a lasting impression on me. ;)

As for the uniformity of use - I tend to disagree. Number of edges, extent of curve and weight of blade all have a significant influence on technique. A da dao handles differently from a jian which handles differently from a broadsword which handles differently from a falchion which handles differently than a small sword. (note: a falchion handles pretty simmilarly to a da dao, I will admit... and any cut-and-thrust european blade with a slight lean towards thrusting techniques and two edges is essentially a jian with a different crosspiece.)

Some swords concentrate on the thrust nearly to the exclusion of cutting (rapier, smallsword). Others concentrate on the cut nearly to the exclusion of the thrust (shamshir) others are balanced between cut and thrust (jian). Some swords tend towards sticking techniques / single time, others towards evasive defense and others towards a double time parry / riposte defensive technique.

[mkriii]

mkriii: I rather think that anyone finding themselves in a sword fight in this day and age has likely advanced beyond the point where "don't be there". I mean it's not like people bring their rapiers to the bar with them when they go drinking.

Well aren't we being nit picky about my post. What I have said is however is the best defense (not being there that is). Weather you want to agree or not. And I understand that "not being there" isn't always going to work, I realize this. That is my oppinion, if you don't like it then so be it. As far as I'm concerned the topic is mute (that means over if you don't understand what that means).

[SimonM]

What I meant is that I don't think the OP was asking about a RL combat scenario. I think, rather, he was looking for advice on technique for "defense" within a sportive combat perspective.

You need not take offense, we are a rather tongue-in-cheek and irreverent lot here at kungfumagazine.com

[mkriii]

Ah, i see.

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Here are more questions:
1. Extension of your rear hand in the lunge (hand not holding the sword):
Western fencing - the rear hand is for balance
Chinese fencing - balance, help the flow of chi through the body and may be a hidden hand technique(?)

Am I correct on those points?

What other hidden hand technique can you use from that rear hand position?

2. When fighting more than two opponents using a lunge or other techniques that require you to extend your rear hand out. How do you prevent some one from chopping your over extended rear hand off?

Or

The ancient western/Chinese swordmen did not use a lunge in a real fight against more than one person.

Thank you
Hitman

[SimonM]

Chinese martial arts are a great deal less mystical than people think. The extension of the hand behind during a lunge was for balance and to keep the **** thing out of the way.

Airy-fairy Qi manipulation stuff comes from mistranslation, misinterpretation, consultation of archaic manuals written during a different paradigm of understanding of human physiology and adherence to instruction via the oral tradition extending back into the time of this different paradigm.

The interesting thing is that much of Chinese medicine and martial arts is that much of it was actually developed through observation and experimentation. This information was then applied to a (relatively good) pre-scientific paradigm and then communicated orally and through manuals that were frequently quite anachronystic in presentation.

So when the information crosses paradigms and languages (and the language gap between Chinese and English is huge) it gets overly-mystified, even compared to the original pre-scientific paradigm within which it was codified.

The responsibility of good martial artists, within traditional martial arts, who are interested in the survival of their art includes separating the true teachings of the art from the noise introduced by translation, interpretation and change of paradigm.

With reference to your second enquiry most melee weapon pedagogies were assuming one of two conditions: 1) dueling 2) military. In both cases response to a small group of attackers facing a single defender was a not-often-considered situation.

To be frank if you are in a sword fight and an armed opponent flanks you than losing your hand is the least of your worries. Taking a blade to the kidney would concern me rather more.

[Lucas]

It also helps to create more force.

[Eddie]

I was in china recently at Wuhan Institute of Physical Education. They are busy developing a new sword fighting sport that includes Chinese sword styles. They use these long foam (with a hard but flexible core) covered swords. They even had a book out on it, and from what I gathered, they have been playing around with the idea for a long while. Also, from what I gathered, this will be kind of like China’s answer to Kendo and fencing. What I saw looked very promising, and I think it could be a great sport. Perhaps this will be included as a Wushu combat event in the future.

[SimonM]

Neat.

Too bad about the foam though... :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was in china recently at Wuhan Institute of Physical Education. They are busy developing a new sword fighting sport that includes Chinese sword styles. They use these long foam (with a hard but flexible core) covered swords. They even had a book out on it, and from what I gathered, they have been playing around with the idea for a long while. Also, from what I gathered, this will be kind of like China’s answer to Kendo and fencing. What I saw looked very promising, and I think it could be a great sport. Perhaps this will be included as a Wushu combat event in the future.

Most padded escrima sticks are the same thing, they are great, though the cheaper one tend to break in a full contact environment that isn't somewhat controlled.
Sometimes I prefer padded work to the real thing, I don't use gloves of head/face gear with padded sticks (only safety goggles) and if you are honest and experienced you get as realistic training as full contact stick work with protective gear.

[SimonM]

I should probably wear more protective gear than I do. I tend to dislike it though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I should probably wear more protective gear than I do. I tend to dislike it though.

My injuries of youth tend to dictate what I wear, namely protective knee gear since I shattered and teared my patela years ago.
Bruise and dislocation are ok in not vital joints.
I wear the smallest gloves I can and depending on who I am fighting, I may wear a forearm guard ( I come from the Yagyu shinkage background and those that know what that means understand the need for forearm/wrist protection with sticks).

[SimonM]

He who has taken a boken shot off of every bone between the finger and the elbow knows what you mean... I still don't bother with protective gear though. Just don't learn I guess.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He who has taken a boken shot off of every bone between the finger and the elbow knows what you mean... I still don't bother with protective gear though. Just don't learn I guess.

Just remember what those boken shots mean, Mr.No hands.
:D

[SimonM]

LOL

That's why we practice with WOOD swords. :D

There were fewer indicators I had to work on defense better than the shot that hit me square on the funny bone and left my left arm in excrusciating pain for 24 hours. I didn't get it chopped off at the elbow... because hardwood sword... but I was aware - get cut here and you be fvcked.

[Eddie]

you guys are hard core.
before i got these padded swords, i used to play sword fighting with my 7 year old boy. We used whatever short sticks we had.
its really crap to get hit on the hands... and that by an unskilled 7 year old. imagine being hit by a skilled escrima player.

rather you guys than me. Ill stick to san shou ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL

That's why we practice with WOOD swords. :D

Funny thing, I once did a "bokken VS stick" fight with a friend of a friend and at one point I hit his arm with the bokken as he is coming in and he continues and gets a head shot after the fact,
On another pass I undercut him from his "caveman" type shot and he gets another shot after the fact.
Afterwards we were discussing the match and he said that, while the arm shots hurt, they real don't stop a determined attack and that I shouldn't focus on them that much ( he said the same about a thrust I did to his chest).
I relied that a Bokken is symbolic of a sword.
His counter was that it isn't a sword.

Of course I replied in my typical way, "wanna try it with a real sword"?

I lose more sparring partners that way.

[SimonM]

you guys are hard core.
before i got these padded swords, i used to play sword fighting with my 7 year old boy. We used whatever short sticks we had.
its really crap to get hit on the hands... and that by an unskilled 7 year old. imagine being hit by a skilled escrima player.

rather you guys than me. Ill stick to san shou ;)

I broke a finger once taking a shot in the knuckles with a boken. That was the worst injury. The funnybone probably is #2. I was lucky the time I was using a hardwood jian and my sparring partner sheered off half the crosspiece with a boken strike that the crosspiece deflected enough of the force that he didn't crush my fingers.

SR: ROTFL about that.

I've had the same discussion with my brother - who prefers staffs. His general technique when sparring with me when I use a boken is to grab the blade part of the "sword" and when I challenge that grabbing a sword like that is a good way to lose fingers he always challenges that on the basis that a wood sword isn't a sword.