Sword Sparring

[SimonM]

When sparring with swords which is your favorite option? Why do you chose that?

I tend to lean towards wood swords - I really don't want to kill my partner or get seriously stabbed but getting a whack with a chunk of hardwood is a motivator not to make the same mistake twice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If using minimum padding, I go with the shinai, if using padding on the elbows,knees and such, I go bokken.

[SimonM]

So why Shinai?

[David Jamieson]

Fencing.

It's very sportive and physically demanding and shares most concepts with similar blade shapes. Sabre is desirable for techniques that are close to cma's jian.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So why Shinai?

Hurts less than a bokken.

[SimonM]

Not meaning to denegrate Fencing, which is a fine and noble sport, but I have a few questions about synching Sabre techniques and practice to Jian as I've always seen the jian as being closer to some of the early-renaissance cut-and-thrust swords from Europe than to fencing swords.

So how do you deal with: 1) the weight differential - fencing swords are WAY lighter than jian.

2) the whippyness - Jian contains many sticking techniques. Fencing swords are really whippy... doesn't this make some of the blade-contact techniques significantly different in feel?

3) Basket Hilt - Sabres have 'em. Jian don't.

[David Jamieson]

sabre = 2 sides, epee=3 foil = 4

sabre weight can vary like jian

width of blade can vary and so on.

mostly though, using fencing equipment is safer and one can go all out and really understand how to maneuver with a blade and how to strike with it as opposed to doing pattern repitition and no actuall forces.

If you want to really practice something, then safety ios paramount and fencing has the safety factor hands down over real blade sparring which could wind up being a manslaughter thing quite easily.

lunge and thrust, retreat and slash etc etc. It's all good.

[golden arhat]

itsall about the scars;):cool:

[SimonM]

sabre = 2 sides, epee=3 foil = 4

sabre weight can vary like jian

width of blade can vary and so on.

mostly though, using fencing equipment is safer and one can go all out and really understand how to maneuver with a blade and how to strike with it as opposed to doing pattern repitition and no actuall forces.

If you want to really practice something, then safety ios paramount and fencing has the safety factor hands down over real blade sparring which could wind up being a manslaughter thing quite easily.

lunge and thrust, retreat and slash etc etc. It's all good.

See that's why I prefer hardwood swords. They are closer to a real jian in rigidity and weight but don't have the same risk of accidentally running through your practice partner of a live weapon.

And I've only ever broken one once.

[Lucas]

I like wood all around, I have jian, dao, sais, boken, tonfa, naginata, nunchaku;) , staff (rattan/bamboo/hardwood) and a nice western broadsword.

The broadsword and one of my boken are purple heart wood, those i never use in sparring though, because of a slight wedge i put to where the blade would be. Will easily still break bones if you arent careful.

It just depends on what flavor I feel like playing with at the time. Some friends and I like to do mix weapon sparring

[Lucas]

I didnt vote because I like all wooden weapons.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I didnt vote because I like all wood
:eek::eek:
Dude...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like wood all around

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Lucas]

rofl...now my co workers wonder why I bust out laughing to myself.

at least they believe me when I just tell them im crazy

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know about this thread...wood...swordsman...half-naked babes...

[Old Noob]

Based on the content of the posts, it seems like one "sword" is missing from the choices and most would pick that one.:D

[SimonM]

We don't want people having another excuse to wave that sword about on KFM.com though.

Heavens knows they do enough as it is anyway.

[golden arhat]

half-naked babes...

would be appreciated

[Old Noob]

3...2...1......

[golden arhat]

HE HEM!!!!

i said

would be appreciated........

[Old Noob]

WTF? Usually SR is pretty good with the cues:confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, one can't be TOO predictable....

[golden arhat]

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!





i'm a simple man:o

[SimonM]

So the day after tomorrow I'm picking up a sword. European, probably a longsword put out by Windlass Steelcraft. Good forge for European historical replicas. At least that's what I hear.

Anyone own one?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So the day after tomorrow I'm picking up a sword. European, probably a longsword put out by Windlass Steelcraft. Good forge for European historical replicas. At least that's what I hear.

Anyone own one?

I have a few hand swords, hand-and-half swords and a few rapiers.

You MUST get the book "secret history of the sword".
MUST GET IT BIOTCH !!!!

[SimonM]

LOL

I have been meaning to pick it up actually. Are any of your swords Windlass Steelcrafts?

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL

I have been meaning to pick it up actually. Are any of your swords Windlass Steelcrafts?

Not that I know of... but I have some that I got 15 years ago...
Which one are you getting it?

[SimonM]

There are a bunch over at the local sword store, Reliks, that I have an eye on. The Windlass Steelcraft longsword with the extended ricasso is nice but I'm concerned that the ricasso might skew the balance. There is a couple of "viking" swords that have crosspieces more simmilar to the jian but the blades are just a little bit on the squat side... essentially broadswords with short crosspieces. I had a jian like that once but I didn't realize that the tang was just welded to the blade and it snapped while I was practicing one day... that may have unfairly biassed me towards broadswords. There is also a "war sword" that looks quite nice but I want to see how it's balance stacks up against the longsword and the viking swords.

I hate, hate, hate the Adam Hsu jian because it's just TOO light.

Relics does have a $1200 cas/iberia Hanwei Forge jian that is just gorgeous. I may salivate over that for a while before buying my $200 sword. ;)

[Oso]

Hey, one can't be TOO predictable....

i was just getting ready to ask for something tall and skinny and voila!

[Oso]

http://www.swordhistory.com/home.html

looks good.

[SimonM]

My lord! Oso that has to be the single best link off-site I have ever seen.

Good job!

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.swordhistory.com/home.html

looks good.

Correct, in his book you will see some common views in regards to Traditional Asian MA too.
How certain things become "tradition" and know one knows from where they sprang up and after detailed research in to the actual traditional methods, these so-called traditions prove to be nothing of the sort.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are a bunch over at the local sword store, Reliks, that I have an eye on. The Windlass Steelcraft longsword with the extended ricasso is nice but I'm concerned that the ricasso might skew the balance. There is a couple of "viking" swords that have crosspieces more simmilar to the jian but the blades are just a little bit on the squat side... essentially broadswords with short crosspieces. I had a jian like that once but I didn't realize that the tang was just welded to the blade and it snapped while I was practicing one day... that may have unfairly biassed me towards broadswords. There is also a "war sword" that looks quite nice but I want to see how it's balance stacks up against the longsword and the viking swords.

I hate, hate, hate the Adam Hsu jian because it's just TOO light.

Relics does have a $1200 cas/iberia Hanwei Forge jian that is just gorgeous. I may salivate over that for a while before buying my $200 sword. ;)

There is a video called "the myth of the sword", I highly recommend you get your greasy fingers on it.
I recommend it to ANYONE with any serious intent on how swords actually work.

[Oso]

Correct, in his book you will see some common views in regards to Traditional Asian MA too.
How certain things become "tradition" and know one knows from where they sprang up and after detailed research in to the actual traditional methods, these so-called traditions prove to be nothing of the sort.

alright now, don't be a tease...my book budget is $0 at the moment...tell...

[sanjuro_ronin]

alright now, don't be a tease...my book budget is $0 at the moment...tell...

Too much to tell, its a great book on many levels but on "questioning" tradition it does something unique, it proves, based on old text and such, that many of the so-called traditions of modern fencing are modern "traditions" and have very little to do with the reality of practical sword fighting.
He shows how many modern fencers are truly ignorant of the real traditions of sword fighting.
He discuss the reality of duels, cut VS thrust, sabre VS rapier, etc, etc.

The parallels between modern "traditional" sword work VS real tradition sword work and modern traditional MA VS real TMA, is very cool.

An example is the issue with low line attacks in modern sword work and how some say its "tradition" to avoid it, but old text show that, while not recommend per say, they were still taught anotjer exmaple is the tradition of NOT striking the horse in cavalry fencing which is NOT a tradition at all because ancient cavalry sword work advocated striking the horse.

[Oso]

i'll have to put it on the list then.

a teacher of mine talks about, at least from the Japanese arts perspective, the transition from old stuff to the 'do' i.e. jujitsu to aikido...judo and others and that many things were lost and new things added for 'philosphical' ends

enh...that's not exactly what he said...i'll have to dredge it up in my memory better of take him to lunch again ;)

my own idea is that there was a period of time, call it a rennaissance maybe, where, in an effort to outdo one another, a bunch of crap was just invented for the sake of how it looked and what you could do to a student willing to stand there and be hit/thrown/locked w/o resisting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i'll have to put it on the list then.

a teacher of mine talks about, at least from the Japanese arts perspective, the transition from old stuff to the 'do' i.e. jujitsu to aikido...judo and others and that many things were lost and new things added for 'philosphical' ends

enh...that's not exactly what he said...i'll have to dredge it up in my memory better of take him to lunch again ;)

my own idea is that there was a period of time, call it a rennaissance maybe, where, in an effort to outdo one another, a bunch of crap was just invented for the sake of how it looked and what you could do to a student willing to stand there and be hit/thrown/locked w/o resisting.
Many people say that the DO / Jutsu thing was a fabrication on the part of Draeger, of course these people tend to be practioners/masters of the DO systems.
Fact is, many so-called traditions were modern inventions added to make systems "special" or even "superiour" to the old "barbaric" systems.
Silliness.

[Oso]

that's pretty much what he, and I, was getting at and to be clear, he was critical of the 'do's

[SimonM]

And, as I repeatedly harp on about, a lot of the "traditional" arts were largely de-weaponized through the transition from combat systems to sports as dueling and personal combat as a method of conflict resolution became increasingly challenged as an appropriate method.

This is very clear in changes to boxing (which was pared down from essentially an MMA competition to it's current form in the course of 100 years) and in fencing but also in asian martial arts such as gongfu and judo.

A lot of what I know about cut-and-thrust sword fighting I've had to piece together through trial and error... humorously when you see the old pictures from the european manuals where the two guys are standing rather close, blades touching, grappling as they try to find an opening in the other's defense to slip a cut or a thrust through... That's what I've found generally works best. :p

[GeneChing]

I don't think anything can truly simulate sword combat. Each method has its advantages. I fenced NCAA and have two provost master degrees. Fencing (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29082)has one thing none of the other sword arts have - sentiment du fer - the feel of steel. I did kendo (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50231) during college and graduate school. Kendo has great impact. There's nothing so satisfying as clobbering someone with a shinai (http://www.martialartsmart.net/354.html). As part of my kendo practice, I dabbled in iai and bokken. Those were useful too. So to get back OT, I think it's great to practice with all manners of swords, steel, wood, even the foam ones (http://www.martialartsmart.net/Self_Defense_Weapons.html) are fun, although they are the ****hest from the source.

Ever read my 2002 Nov Dec (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=236) cover story? There's some discussion on the TCMA sword sparring movement in PRC. The Muslim Master of the Old Empire: An interview with Grandmaster Ma Xianda (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=244)

[Oso]

Sifu Michael Desargo out in...San Diego, I think...is doing a lot of work with jian sparring last I saw on the MQ forum...ah, found the clip on youtube. seems like he's developed a practice sword out of a synthetic material that comes close to the flexibility of the jian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyS3M8M4OaA

[SimonM]

So I picked up the naumburg sword produced by windlass steelcraft today. It's shockingly light. So far happy. Gene: although my qualifications are more haphazard (read non-existant) than a pair of masters degrees I do have to agree that the feel of fighting with a steel blade certainly is an attraction of fencing. Still I sort of like the stability and mass of the wood swords - which more accurately reflect the swords I enjoy using.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So I picked up the naumburg sword produced by windlass steelcraft today. It's shockingly light. So far happy. Gene: although my qualifications are more haphazard (read non-existant) than a pair of masters degrees I do have to agree that the feel of fighting with a steel blade certainly is an attraction of fencing. Still I sort of like the stability and mass of the wood swords - which more accurately reflect the swords I enjoy using.

You know, most swords were not that heavy, even the two handed swords were not that heavy, they were two handed to use both hands for leverage (longer blade), the whole notion of a heavy blade is from the movies.

[SimonM]

I'm aware of that SR. What I meant is that with this in mind it was still lighter than expected. Based on it's length of the blade (32") and the width (it's a broadsword) I was anticipating 3 lbs. It's actually 2 lbs, 12 oz. Those 4 oz really make a big difference.

The sword is also quite responsive. The slightest movement in the wrist can cause it to seem to spring into position.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm aware of that SR. What I meant is that with this in mind it was still lighter than expected. Based on it's length of the blade (32") and the width (it's a broadsword) I was anticipating 3 lbs. It's actually 2 lbs, 12 oz. Those 4 oz really make a big difference.

The sword is also quite responsive. The slightest movement in the wrist can cause it to seem to spring into position.

Do you know what its made from?

[SimonM]

"Tempered high carbon steel"

According to windlass steelcrafts webpage they select steel between a carbon rating of from 1065 to 1095 depending on the design of the weapon. Forged in a charcoal burning furnace and shaped by hand. The blade goes through hardening and tempering and is quality controlled to test between 48-52 rockwell and to ensure it will return to true from a bend of up to 5 inches.