Bong Sau

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1g-8ajovYM

:D

[couch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1g-8ajovYM

:D

That's not Wing Chun!!!

LOL

Not my cup of tea. But definitely don't like how at the beginning, he gives his opponent his Wu Sau with his Bong Sau. He's already given him both hands. Pinned or pulled, it's over, Grover. Can you tell I've got kids?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1a/The_Monster_at_the_End_of_This_Book_Starring_Lovab le,_Furry_Old_Grover.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's not Wing Chun!!!

LOL

Not my cup of tea. But definitely don't like how at the beginning, he gives his opponent his Wu Sau with his Bong Sau. He's already given him both hands. Pinned or pulled, it's over, Grover. Can you tell I've got kids?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1a/The_Monster_at_the_End_of_This_Book_Starring_Lovab le,_Furry_Old_Grover.jpg

Yes, I am a trouble maker ;)

[couch]

Yes, I am a trouble maker ;)

I was gonna call you a Sh!t disturber for posting that vid. LOL

What else it there to do as a WC practitioner? Train? Bah!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was gonna call you a Sh!t disturber for posting that vid. LOL

What else it there to do as a WC practitioner? Train? Bah!

Hey, if THAT man says that's how a Bong Sau is done then, by all the hairy gods, that's how it's done !!!

[couch]

Hey, if THAT man says that's how a Bong Sau is done then, by all the hairy gods, that's how it's done !!!

This is true. He is from China and he has a video series.

I am nothing and retract all opinions. :p

[k gledhill]

ugly.....chasing with a bong, to far to hit with either hand , turning to redirect an arm [ bad ] instead of attacking the person ..
'

bong is a blink of an eye. we do alot in chi-sao to ensure the angle is correct as we attack in without thinking. 1000's of simple reps for a simple blink response. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

That's not Wing Chun!!!

LOL

Not my cup of tea. But definitely don't like how at the beginning, he gives his opponent his Wu Sau with his Bong Sau. He's already given him both hands. Pinned or pulled, it's over, Grover. Can you tell I've got kids? . . . .
Except for the bent wrist this is how TWC does it. We're not worried about the trap. With contact reflexes there won't be anything to trap. I used to do the bong first then the Wu. Now I do them together.

[KPM]

This is true. He is from China and he has a video series.

I am nothing and retract all opinions. :p


Just goes to show you that being chinese and training in China is no guarantee! :) Those guys were so far apart that the could barely even touch each other! Then they lean forward rather than stepping in and almost fall over. It was actually kind of comical. :D

[Liddel]

Except for the bent wrist this is how TWC does it. We're not worried about the trap. With contact reflexes there won't be anything to trap. I used to do the bong first then the Wu. Now I do them together.

Interesting Phil...

Personally i would only ever do something like that for a heavy round punch or kick from a bigger opponent, cause i need both hands to deal with the force. It would be more like Kwan or the Bong with Wu. Straight punches not so much.

I too dont do the wrist bend.... i feel its using force that you dont need to get results. I have no doubt you make it work with speed :)

Its easy to see the guy in the clip has to train more, the bong users horse is all over the place taking the force into his body too much making him unstable.

Its not that bad really though considering what stage thier at, unless hes a teacher :eek:

DREW

[couch]

Just goes to show you that being chinese and training in China is no guarantee! :) Those guys were so far apart that the could barely even touch each other! Then they lean forward rather than stepping in and almost fall over. It was actually kind of comical. :D

Making the wheels go first (stepping) is key when being pulled. No leaning, walk the stance instead!

:)

Phil - I thought about TWC stuff as this is how I was taught at Lewadny's club. No offense to your way of doing things. I know you can throw down. Just my preference.

Best,
Kenton

[HardWork8]

Except for the bent wrist this is how TWC does it.

In Siu Lam Wing Chun we do it more or less like the people on the video. However, the fingers are never open or spread apart. That is they are closed and tight (with minimum tension).

In our system if you offer open fingers to your opponent during sparring or chi sao, you will be in danger of having your fingers grabbed and locked or taken down to the ground.



We're not worried about the trap. With contact reflexes there won't be anything to trap.
Exactly!

Furthermore the wu hand can be used to lap (da) the incoming punch.



I used to do the bong first then the Wu. Now I do them together.

If memory serves me correctly that is how I learnt my bong sao as well.:)

[HardWork8]

Personally i would only ever do something like that for a heavy round punch
Interesting. Do you mean that you turn your bong-wu into the incoming hook/round punch?


I too dont do the wrist bend.... i feel its using force that you dont need to get results. I have no doubt you make it work with speed :)
Furthermore and depending on the situation your fingers can end up closer to the relevant areas of the central line, i.e. the throat. I am sure that this aspect is more relevant to practitioners at Biu Jee level (not my level), who can convert the bong into telling short range finger strikes to that area.


Its easy to see the guy in the clip has to train more, the bong users horse is all over the place taking the force into his body too much making him unstable.
I think that they should have used higher level students for that video.:)

[Liddel]

Interesting. Do you mean that you turn your bong-wu into the incoming hook/round punch?

Yes, Bong Wu or kwan (bong tan). Generally speaking its for 'swings' or hooks that are closing the distance. The combo of the actions used together creates a stronger block IMO.

With my sparring partners it allows me to launch lower leg kicks while blocking an attack.
If i were in the mood knee stomps are good in this situation :p.



Furthermore and depending on the situation your fingers can end up closer to the relevant areas of the central line, i.e. the throat. I am sure that this aspect is more relevant to practitioners at Biu Jee level (not my level), who can convert the bong into telling short range finger strikes to that area.


Not to knock anyones appraoch ok...but i feel one can do that without bending the wrist with the bong...
one could argue that starting without the bend means the punch can fall away adding to its effectiveness and your range of motion transitioning into a Bui Sao can add momentum and inch power to the strike....:rolleyes:

Thoughts ?

In all honesty i really cant see any 'major' concerns from doing it, its just how i was taught... so preference is the deciding factor IMO :)

DREW

[HardWork8]

Yes, Bong Wu or kwan (bong tan). Generally speaking its for 'swings' or hooks that are closing the distance. The combo of the actions used together creates a stronger block IMO.
It sounds good and interesting, but it is a little different from the Siu Lam Wing Chun approach.


If i were in the mood knee stomps are good in this situation :p. Ouch!:eek:



Not to knock anyones appraoch ok...but i feel one can do that without bending the wrist with the bong...
one could argue that starting without the bend means the punch can fall away adding to its effectiveness and your range of motion transitioning into a Bui Sao can add momentum and inch power to the strike....:rolleyes:

Thoughts ?


They are just different approaches suited to the different lineages. They are both right and have their advantages.

In Siu Lam WC we also use the crane wrist as a strike and our bong sao facilitates this as well. We also place heavy emphasis on Chin-na/joint manipulation and in some ways our bong sao facilitates certain grabbing/grasping techniques of this nature.

Also, when short range power is mastered a throat strike from this position will cut down on "wasted" time.


In all honesty i really cant see any 'major' concerns from doing it, its just how i was taught... so preference is the deciding factor IMO :)

Preference and perhaps the distinct peculiarities of each lineage/system.:)

[monji112000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1g-8ajovYM

:D

I have learned a similar qwan sao.. Its not a fav of move.. Its better when you combine it with a push kick. JMO You clear the way and then kick.

I don't do it exactly the way the guy is doing it.. but you will find that once he is really throwing punches your going to need to do it differently.
JMO again.

[anerlich]

Phil is correct. [In TWC] You want the wu sao there to grab the arm or stop it riding up past the elbow. If it ain't there you'll miss the arm. Standard response would be to grab/larp the arm with the wu sao and strike with the bon arm.

It looks bad here because they are too far apart and the bon guy has to stretch in too far to meet the strike.

Bon turning into tan shifting across the line of the punch is a TWC no no. There is a point in the middle where the stucture is weak and you will get nailed.

In TWC the hook at the end of the bon is seen as a target for trapping. Henc.e we do it with a straight wrist (among other reasons).

It's easy to find fault with the video offerings of others, ain't it?

[Phil Redmond]

Yes, I am a trouble maker ;)

No you're not. You just call them as you see them. I respect that. I can show you my take on the bong Sept. 20. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Interesting Phil...

Personally i would only ever do something like that for a heavy round punch or kick from a bigger opponent, cause i need both hands to deal with the force. It would be more like Kwan or the Bong with Wu. Straight punches not so much.

I too dont do the wrist bend.... i feel its using force that you dont need to get results. I have no doubt you make it work with speed :)

Its easy to see the guy in the clip has to train more, the bong users horse is all over the place taking the force into his body too much making him unstable.

Its not that bad really though considering what stage thier at, unless hes a teacher :eek:

DREW
You wrote: "Bong never stays". You are so right. That's why the bong turns into a punch/lop/wu/lauh/tan/gan/biu/ etc., immediately. ;)

[couch]

Phil is correct. [In TWC] You want the wu sao there to grab the arm or stop it riding up past the elbow. If it ain't there you'll miss the arm. Standard response would be to grab/larp the arm with the wu sao and strike with the bon arm.

It's easy to find fault with the video offerings of others, ain't it?

Just to have a [healthy] discussion about this...

I understand when you say the Wu can grab the arm and stop of from riding up past the elbow, but IMO, if the punch is that high or the attack is over my Bong, Bong Sau is not the tool.

I prefer to use the Bong for anything about kinda-chin-downwards. It also depends on my opponent's size, etc. If I'm having to raise up my Bong to really protect my face and there is a punch coming over my Bong (riding past the elbow) then I've selected the wrong tool. Tan or Go Bong/Biu would be better. (Of course I have my Wu Sau hanging out in the back just in case I'm having a bad day!)

And, yah, it's sometimes easy to pick other people's stuff apart. There have been, many times though, where we've had to say: "I can't really see what's going on there." And left the video at that. ;)

Best to you,
Kenton

[couch]

You wrote: "Bong never stays". You are so right. That's why the bong turns into a punch/lop/wu/lauh/tan/gan/biu/ etc., immediately. ;)

Heck ya. If there's still contact after that punch with a Bong, then you can 'stick' and follow up.

I always look at things like someone will still continue to throw punches/attacks, too. So after you throw a Bong up, it's probably going to transform into a hit because 'Hand lost, thrust forward."

[sanjuro_ronin]

No you're not. You just call them as you see them. I respect that. I can show you my take on the bong Sept. 20. ;)

Coming over on the 20th? Sweet.
I will make sure not to miss it, I will show you my take on the Turkish oil check and how it applies to chi sao.
:D

[anerlich]

I understand when you say the Wu can grab the arm and stop of from riding up past the elbow, but IMO, if the punch is that high or the attack is over my Bong, Bong Sau is not the tool.

TWC tends to use bon higher than many other YM styles. IMO it is not so much the height of the punch but the vertical angle it's coming from that determines its likelihood of riding up over the elbow after contact.

IMO there are certain angles of incoming that may be difficult for a bil, and less so a tan, but for which the bon is ideally suited.

[k gledhill]

We don't use bong like that..we use it knock a punch out of the way like a pak sao slaps a punch off line , only we do it using bong because you have x'ed over our strike or strike line ...same left to right right to left displacement ...this allows a deflecting force to work with a forward attacking assault striking as you do it...by design any force that meets a lateral force will follow the deflecting line ....because the vu is designed to seamlessly recover the attack line , all the bong has to do is drop the elbow ...like tut sao , we slde one into the space the other made and retract the bong or lead hand back to repeat as required during the attack...always we have 2 free attack hands versus 1 or 2 fighting our 1...

the vu-sao is always by the bicep ...Yip Man adopts this in his photos ...not to lop from as the 1st response. Lop is if the bong isnt working alone , it needs help to function to maintain the attack intent...attacking is our defensive response. How is your attack today ? :D

We dont anticipate a lop or a lateral grab across our line , for this reason we primarily use the jut sao. Even if jut misses the punch we are still striking from our line and intersecting our head entry , non thinking . This idea allows us to keep striking , but using intersecting lines that work if the guys arm happens to hit the 'spider web' if it doesnt we are just throwing punches like any good VT'er does.....only the idea work best from a position that intersects lines of incoming force ....ergo low elbows arms that leave and recover to our line . like an expanding and contracting of a crank-shaft and a rod to a piston in an engine..the rod moves out and back traveling a circle with the shaft, but the piston goes straight in and out , the rod motion knocks any thing it meets from ever contacting the drive shaft....that is of course unless the shaft is seized and cant move to make the idea function.

bong opens left to r or r to l not up and down or a forceful stop and block ...worse is to use the vu sao as a further force meets force idea....vu sao should be free to strike always .

In chi-sao the fingertips of the bong should be almost touching your partners opposite arms bicep ...:D ...not to fight like this but to develop the ability of the arms to function this way either side in close proximity. We need close distances to make the angles work ..or we have to raise our arms up and use them like blocks up and down.

The ballistic force generated by speed of the bong action , should lift you shirt sleeve off your arm..and back to tan /strike position,, BLINK and its over ...why all the reps in chu m kil...simple muscle memory of a relatively complex action in a fight ...the vu is by our bicep not on the c'line.





WSL used these ideas to fight with not do chi-sao with.

If someone puts energy at their wrists the lateral lines of deflection work even better , ergo control of our elbows to maintain the alignment of the strikes in chi-sao, not to put forwrd energy at our wrists...redundant and will ruin your development of the idea.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I was only just now able to see the video. That was 2 students doing qwan sao drills. They were not even intermediate. The tall one actually did it backwards and his sifu showed him that there was a fist looking at him on the other side. They stand that far apart so that they can put a lot of umph into their work without damaging one another. There is no reason to hit one another in the face while training. One being taller by a foot did not really make it look any better. The qwan can be done with a wu or a tan. It really all depends on how you want to use it. With bong you have a bunch of other moves that can go well with it. To trap and pull an opponent into your punch it requires you have your wu hand high like that. If not, then it becomes a 2 action move. The bong and then the trap and jerk. If your opponent is quick he will be hard to trap if you have to move the jerk hand forward to grab. If it is in place it can do it all in a single movement. That includes the punch that comes with the jerk.
The Sifu, I am assuming, was only demonstrating qwan sao front and side. I have seen a few people that have developed hand and finger movements like he was doing, but if it was done with a jerk and punch as he was demonstrating, he would not be doing that. The 2 young men were only just learning, but I would bet that the older gentleman has good gung fu.

[anerlich]

How is your attack today ?

Fine, thanks.


They stand that far apart so that they can put a lot of umph into their work without damaging one another. There is no reason to hit one another in the face while training.

I didn't see much umph in that. i think you can go reasonably hard in range and still control the shots to the body and just give light taps to the head. Wear a mouthpiece all the same.


To trap and pull an opponent into your punch it requires you have your wu hand high like that.

I agree.


I would bet that the older gentleman has good gung fu.

Indeed, I see no reason to deride him based on this short clip of two students.

[bennyvt]

About the wrist bending.
I found after doing chum kiu I had a habit of bending the wrist while doing the side bong's (2nd section with the step after the first kick). This seemed to transfer into my other training. Got into hell for it by my teacher.
We also move the bong and Wu togeather as if you leave your hand out while doing the bong it means you are easily trapped, the idea is to move both but to ensure the Wu sao is not to close to the bong, we tend to say about the middle of the bicep. Wu should be lsightly above the bong sao to ensure any thing that goes over the bong will be contacted by the Wu sao, with the fingers twisted back but the wrist having forward pressure, this means that when contacted the Wu sao will spring forward.

[k gledhill]

We do ours like the image ..it sweeps at it cleans the line while striking... same lines as the first actions of the forms , same lines as tut sao/senk sao/shaving hands 'free to strike hand'....:D
We don't do lop 1st , just hit when the bong sao elbow is lowered. If the bong goes up in a high position we use the same concept of tut sao...but the bilgee bil sao under the arms
to recover the arm flank.
The vu doesn't look to be a block either or it isolates itself from the independent arm ideas developed earlier. Its more of a 'last resort' that it stops an inward chop by being there not thinking to be there :D . same as a knife .

The thinking ...Why fight one incoming punch with 2 arms ? it's assuming the punch is going to need 2 hands to fight it , occupying the beat available to attack . If the bong is pushed /collapsed the vu isnt trapped ...ever, that is a concept in itself. If the hands where chess pieces the vusao would be the queen. All hands protect it and the king is your head ;) leading strikes are pawns , bong pak, juts are the knight , bishops, Kicks are the rook.

The bong is used for a recovery to end the attack asap due to the 1st punch we threw being x'ed over....the rear hand is going to strike in as the line is opened by bong , the strike is thrown from the rear vu-sao position so that the trajectory sweeps a space before it with the forearms , without , thinking about the possibilities before it...that is for chi-sao reactions to force felt, non thinking reactions.

Each arm is doing a job alone , then in a partnership to keep striking /attacking . We would only adopt 'lop' if the bong didn't work [collapsed] or we lost our position , or had to alter the line of the individual because he stopped our assault line momentum.
Primarily we would use a strike that 'also' deflected from the vu-sao position to the target.
If interrupted we would use jut sao as a primary 'door opener' [ there is no 'lop' in slt ]. The idea being the jut'ing action , even if we miss , wont open our own line up to entry as a missed lop will... why we do so many juts in the form and develop in dummy work.
Lop is to look for an arm laterally..

One way to train to not do a lop as a reason is to recoil your man sao [ punch on the bong ] away from the intended LOP and see where the hand goes ...is it striking you even if it misses , or going off into space sideways ?

We strive to never deliver techniques that will take us away from our intended attack line or chase off line..same thinking for the knife .

Bong isnt a solid force meets force, its repeated over and over in chi-sao as a left to right or right to left action...so anything putting energy into the wrists and seeking it as a place to rest forward energy will naturally go ....

sideways , opening up the strike path. Blink and you will miss all that heavenly glory .

[couch]

[ there is no 'lop' in slt ]

In my SLT, I Lop every time I close a section. I Huen, Lop, then put my hand back in chamber with an emphasis on my elbow (like a rear elbow strike).

Lop and Huen are performed so many times in my SNT.

Best,
Kenton

[Phil Redmond]

The thinking ...Why fight one incoming punch with 2 arms ? ....

The Kwan uses two arms to block a kick or punch. Why not the bong wu against a very strong round punch. If a small women is trying to stop a round punch from a stronger man she will need two arms to absorb the force.

[Sihing73]

The Kwan uses two arms to block a kick or punch. Why not the bong wu against a very strong round punch. If a small women is trying to stop a round punch from a stronger man she will need two arms to absorb the force.

Hi Phil,

Go wash your mouth out with soap, "block" is a dirty word :D To me when you say "block" it invokes images of meeting force with force and that is something I try to avoid.

I can see several reasons for backing up the Bong with your Wu. However, to me, the Bong is a transitory move and should not be used to "force" anything. Of course, that is just me as I have always been weak and lazy so I try to do as little as I can with as little as I have. :p

Oh, fwiw, I have used something similar to a Kwan Sau in practicing knife reversals and in that situation two hands are definitely better than one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hope this clears some stuff up:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7tPQbARklgo&feature=related

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Phil,

Go wash your mouth out with soap, "block" is a dirty word :D To me when you say "block" it invokes images of meeting force with force and that is something I try to avoid.

I can see several reasons for backing up the Bong with your Wu. However, to me, the Bong is a transitory move and should not be used to "force" anything. Of course, that is just me as I have always been weak and lazy so I try to do as little as I can with as little as I have. :p

Oh, fwiw, I have used something similar to a Kwan Sau in practicing knife reversals and in that situation two hands are definitely better than one.
Ok, stop, intercept, parry, deflect, redirect, etc. Is that ok?? :D

[k gledhill]

Kwan just makes me smile, sorry :D

[Phil Redmond]

Kwan just makes me smile, sorry :D
When I was kickboxing I stopped many hard round kicks to my head with a kwan. So I take is seriously. It's one of the techiques taught to Duncan Leung by Yip Man and it works. :D

[Mr Punch]

TWC tends to use bon higher than many other YM styles. IMO it is not so much the height of the punch but the vertical angle it's coming from that determines its likelihood of riding up over the elbow after contact.
IMO there are certain angles of incoming that may be difficult for a bil, and less so a tan, but for which the bon is ideally suited.I go with Couch and use bong for lower line attacks, but the reason isn't because of the danger of a strike 'sliding up over the bong' so much, so this assessment of the vertical angle thing doesn't work for me.

The problems are more:

1) If it is high enough to be effective for higher shots there is a very real chance of it actually knocking the incoming higher and into your own face. Of course with the correct timing this shouldn't happen but even then it means leaving your arm up a long time and therefore exposing your ribs/even chest.

2) High-low combos: If you get into set patterns of bong-something it puts you into a reactive mode - and you're not going to be able to respond quickly enough to a high-low punch combo.

3) A lot of punches change line very quickly and effectively on the way in: a good example being a body hook, changing to a head hook, or any height of hook changing into an overhand over the top of your guard. This will negate any of the nice sensitive bong contact reaction you've developed as there's no contact, and again relegate you to a defensive, reactive mode.

I want my bong low and aggressive: more like as k gledhill says as a strong deflection, or coming underneath to uproot. Or in close range: to drive in over their arms to set up elbows or incidental pins (like lans) if we get tangled up.

I do use a low fast, almost non-contact 'disappearing bong' from Sam Kwok's line, and have had some success with it in FC sparring against different styles. In that the idea is to get out of the way (they're thinking they're going to meet resistance), with the bong just covering and gaining top position on their arm: it get's the opponent to overcommit if you can get it right.

Just a few thoughts - of course, I appreciate that I can't use a bong high in the way TWC does because we don't practise it that way: and you TWCers may well be fine with it! :D

[Mr Punch]

They stand that far apart so that they can put a lot of umph into their work without damaging one another. There is no reason to hit one another in the face while training.
That's one opinion. I hate training outside of striking range. It completely messes up your timing and reflexes even in a slow co-operative drill.

[Mr Punch]

[ there is no 'lop' in slt ]I'm with couch on this too: I learned my first lop (I have three distinct lops) as part of the chambering move, and then revisited it as a very short power lop when I learned biu jee.

Do you not doa lop at all until you're learning chum kiu?

[Wilson]

The problems are more:

1) If it is high enough to be effective for higher shots there is a very real chance of it actually knocking the incoming higher and into your own face. Of course with the correct timing this shouldn't happen but even then it means leaving your arm up a long time and therefore exposing your ribs/even chest.


In TWC, we step and turn so that our wrist is still at our center, but our center is now facing the side of the punching arm. This allows the punch to travel where our head WAS but we are in the clear on the opponents blind side...and our bong can be used to deflect/redirect or sense the next move, while the wu hand can now lop, trap, etc. to set up for the strike from the blind side.

I would not stand still and raise a bong sau to a punch coming straight at my face as a "block".

[k gledhill]

my thinking ...attack as defense , non thinking .

jut sao ! it is the primary attack clearing action, due to its action of holding the line. we do a lot in the dummy facing to develop its shock force .

lop is not done 1st for a reason. When we do lop sao its to turn the opponent on his vertical axis line , turning them and opening their flanks like a 'farm gate' ...attack gone bad because our forward ATTACK was stopped ...so in a blink [lot of blinking going on] the guy is grabbed turned and attacked AGAIN :D ...back to the 'primary' attacking idea. Attack as the defense.

We do turning 'jut-sao' in chum kil, a lot of jut sao's ...many use lop like its a given thing for ALL .if in doubt LOP IT OUT...NOT ! jut sao even if you miss is still on your centerline firing away , both arms are jutting as they attack by nature of the flanking angles. If I intersect your arm like 2 roads crossing each other and want to strike forwards , why detour ?...the jut moves on centerline as we shift to face in CK , it doesnt leave the line to chase , nor does tan, jum etc... for a reason of developing a non thinking attack line , seamless in its attack actions .


In CK jut sao is done on top of the tan 3 times for a reason...when we do 3 times its significant. tan sao is a striking position we use it as a platform to develop the 'shock'
effect on our own arms , not as an arm break , although you can do anything :D
A tan/strike interrupted becomes ....? jut repeat 2-3...not lop 3-4

In Bil Bee the arms lead the head , we chase using wrists and lop takes your arm off line , a chasing action ,

Mistakes are further compounded by doing bong lop routines , instead of bong jut routines at a basic level , it develops 2 different animals.

a simple way to 'prove ' & 'eradicate' the 'chase hand' ....If you quickly remove the man sao [ punch/fook] on the bong like a jabbing action , while doing man sao bong sao drills , you will see the students trying to grab sideways as they try to grab the now empty space and thereby chase arms and add a redundant beat to the attack ... your trying to help each other by doing this on purpose not get ****ed off the guy made you look silly...get better not revenge .

it instills the block n grab rather than deflect left to right with bong and then strike attack again ...only do a jut if required. or LOP if the bong didnt deflect because it didnt work right ...then we go to fix bong ...bil gee recovers bad bongs, high bongs , grabbed wrists of bong ...

bong ->f<- bong

YM holds his vu sao by the bongs bicep so the following striking action clears his center line by simply moving forwards as he drops the bong elbow, attacking strike, contact made ? jut or lop it should be instinctive not a pre-programed response to always lop...

One of the ways to coach out mistakes is to simply and quickly remove the lead hand [ man sao] the student is 'looking ' for on his bong, its like I trained guy's in shooting drills by putting a blank in a gun [revolver roulette] to see if the student is anticipating the bang /recoil and taking the barrel off the firing line to the bulls eye when the gun just goes 'click' .... its a common mistake we all make , and one the system focuses on to remove by training... if everyone does it , so will the guy who doesn't know the system :D good for you, bad for them :cool:

You show them the faster method [ harder] and create an attacking action following the bong sideways clearing move ..laterally on your line of attack...tut sao idea drop bong elbow / slide strike in to the space created , seamless , no thinking needed while still attacking , arms on the line firing and clearing , not chasing.
The tan sao by design clears the line using its outside edge of the forearm , the elbow leaves the line during the strike extension [ tan elbow spreads OFF the line ..not the tan hand..and back again ] chi-sao is this tan strike back to tan ..elbow muscle memory for good pre-strike positions aka tan /jum . So as the bong lowers the vu becomes a tan strike [ commonly seen as a kwan ;)] and seamlessly strikes along our line as the bong elbow drops down to resume attacking again with a following jum strike using the INSIDE of the forearm to follow the OUTSIDE tan strike from the flanked arm displaced by the BONG SAO ...cool stuff :D I love this system...

It develops the non thinking attack line .....a lop will open your line up chasing laterally as you attack the guy...if you miss or they just keep punching across your upraised bong
you haven't reclaimed the Vu sao position [queen on the board] quick enough to simply fire again at the incoming strikes ...because the vu recovers to its own base rear line in a pre-flanking strike position ...the idea fails...if it does get back its THERE simply keep striking or it meets something on the way..either way your ATTACKING AS YOUR DEFENSE [ can you hear my writing :D] not looking for lop sao .

Jut goes back and forth on the line as SLT , intersecting the centerline the same way the shaving hands teaches to transfer one striking deflection action to another without opening up the attack line to the opponent ...it means we are seamlessly delivering a constant barrage only stopped by them and arms in the way or turning away from us or not fighting.

Doing lop first is like adding a wrong piece in a unbroken idea....the SLT feeds techniques to itself to further the idea..

we need lop, but not at the basic level of development or you ingrain an idea that breaks the first attack line idea. Bil gee isnt SLT its to recover the idea of SLT ...recovery.

you can do it in SLT, hel l you can anything :D [ and many do ] , but do you know the difference between jut and lop ? and why and when ?

[k gledhill]

When I was kickboxing I stopped many hard round kicks to my head with a kwan. So I take is seriously. It's one of the techiques taught to Duncan Leung by Yip Man and it works. :D


im talking about chi-sao world :D I use it too to create a defensive line but its usually seen as a 'move' . Again its a chasing thing the dummy 'kwan' to us is not turning a guy like the main dummy body is the attacker ...we are attacking in a cycle of previous arm actions that cycle into and out of 'kwan' ...example , the high jumming strike with a low gaun sao ..many see as a double defensive move ...we attack high jumming strike, defend low gate gaun sao....we rotate low gaun sao to a tan strike position [elbow in outside forearm deflection strike in] while high jumming strike [inside forearm deflection strike] rotates to a bong sao deflection to clear for the tan ...done in a sequence that trains one arm to become a defensive partner to the next strike ...and rotate forever 2-3-4...the SLT last sections are these cycles of attack and defense in a partnership required because the simple strike was interrupted.

not a set response do 'Kwan sao for this' attack...we are attacking using a basic strike ability. Then use a bong like most to clear the way...our thinking of bong is simply that if you x my strike line from above , high , low, mid section its still the same ...


In the dummy training there are more dummy's invisible on either side of the main body...when we do Kwan sao it isn't as a move but the arms cycling through SLT using CK movement and facing the imaginary opponent off to the side your tan strike is pointing and bong is deflecting to open for the next strike ...we are 'shutting down' the opponents flank in the direction we move across the dummy face each arm can become the other jum/tan/ f \tan\jum [ f = flanked side] as the guy shifts before us ...ergo we go back across th dummy to attack them as thy change directions so we do it seamlessly, like they have a wall behind them and have to move sideways to us we are constantly positioning ourselves to their flanks pointing with ck facing [chu ying] so slt idea works ......different thinking. perpetual attacking as defense.

The dummy gives us a chance to cycle the ideas over and over in an attack defensive relationship.
working the idea of the line and out x'ing it to seamlessly sweep the zone we attack on. lin sil di da .
the height of the dummy arms critical to instill the right elbow /alignment and ging shock force ...got to love it !

Even when we turn back to reface the dummy and enter on the sides it is also seen as you have kept closing down the opponent from the original line of attack ..iow its not face and suddenly enter by angling in using a sidestep etc... but a converging attacking line like a child will play tag and go for your legs as you move away, they come after you, and with you , not doing a perimeter defense like a basketball player guarding a guy trying to get past him by keeping space constant .

So while going across the face of the dummy atacking and converging on them you keep going as if entering the side of the dummy only using tan or jum not both like tan sideplam attack , that is simply for alignment of one or the other in the attack line tan or jum but we dont know which ...? yet ; )

[bennyvt]

I also learnt the kwan sao in the dummy as a defence for kicks. The idea is that your opponent is too big or quick to step and garn sao like you should so you kwan sao the kick and the angle of the arms. body and kick mean that the force goes into their knee or the area that you are striking.
Wu Sao. The idea is to pull your fingers back but to have the forward pressure in the elbow. This means that the Wu sao will not be thrown forward when the pressure is gane (as it would if your fingers are not pushed back). The Wu sao is the last resort, I like to call the bong sao the "jesus" block as you are to late or see it late and go "JESUS!" and throw the bong sao. With the elbow thrown forward towards the block. The Wu sao has to have forward force as by the time it hits the block if you have to push forward it will have already hit you. This is the main idea behind Chi sao as opposed to just if he does this you do that, but if your force is always pushing towards your opponents centre your hands will fly forward before your brain has time to think, so on the way forward your brain decides what to do.
Lap sao (this would only be done if bong has not worked as you would just hit). Lap sao should never be a sideways motion to start. The Wu sao should be pushed forward using the elbow. The Wu sao should hit the opponents hand, depending what happens changes your move. If the hand is pushed aside you continue into a punch. If the hand is still in the centre then you turn the Wu sao into a lap sao using the outside of your hand to divert the opponents hand will turning it into the lap sao. If the hand can be moved you move it enough to be able to turn it into a punch, move the hand and hit with the other or if the opponent is really buig you can step and lap sao and if you structure is correct you will be moved into the position you would have liked (the same position as if you moved him but you move instead).
Yes the jut sao is a good technique but like everything if it worked all the time you wouldnt learn anything else. As if you can jut sao on the centre you could have turned it into a punch in the first place.

[k gledhill]

Benny vt i dont do vt like you, i like the "Jesus !" funny :D you should be attacking the other guys vusao ;) make him say "Jesus and Mary !"

[Phil Redmond]

Wu guarding the face with forward energy. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong. I'm just saying this is what has worked for me in the ring and in the street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63riYdFn_bI

[anerlich]

With all this argument about the "right" way to practice bon and how clueless everyone else is, I sparred last night. My bon seemed to pop up Ok without thinking, and I didn't have the wu there unless I needed it. I didn't get my bon/wu trapped didn't get pooed by attacks on a low line after the high bon, have a shot ride up over my elbow or anything else.

Drilling your stuff is far more important than arguing about it.

[Mr Punch]

With all this argument about the "right" way to practice bon and how clueless everyone else is...I didn't even see it that way. Looks like a reasonable discussion on differences and similarities to me... ;) :D

Sure do like fighting dontcha!:p :D

[Mr Punch]

In TWC, we step and turn so that our wrist is still at our center, but our center is now facing the side of the punching arm. This allows the punch to travel where our head WAS but we are in the clear on the opponents blind side...and our bong can be used to deflect/redirect or sense the next move, while the wu hand can now lop, trap, etc. to set up for the strike from the blind side.Sure, of course the idea is to move offline out the way of whatever as part of the bong. But the way a lot of people I've trained with have done it (not your line) they still end up redirecting the strike back into their faces.

And I have to say I have a big problem with this idea of 'sensing the next move'. OK, in some contact situations you can get it: mainly with a lot of pushing and barging, but are you really suggesting you can read what someone is going to do at full speed, with an incoming and probably returning strike, with adrenaline racing around, without even leaving your bong out...?! :eek: Sounds a bit supernatural to me.

I'm not interested in sensitivity with bong. Sure I can sometimes read what they're going to do by instinct from whole body feedback, but not from a split-second 500-yen piece sized point of contact + adrenaline. So, I don't train bong: I train bong-tan, bong-lop, bong-lan, bong-man, bong-chum jarn, bong-elbow... all with the same arm (though of course bong-lop follows up with the opposite side just as easily).


I would not stand still and raise a bong sau to a punch coming straight at my face as a "block".I didn't suggest that.

[YungChun]

Aside from particulars about Bong.. Part of using contact to get a 'read' is to apply forward pressure or forward spring energy supported by the body (the water hose pressure).. When this offensive component is added the 'intent' of the opponent can be read.. Of course what is meant by 'intent' IMO will have everything to do with the core concept of the system, occupying the line, and their intent relates to this and essentially how they are leaving it (the line). The read and response should be natural and automatic, anything else IS too slow.

[Mr Punch]

Aside from particulars about Bong.. Part of using contact to get a 'read' is to apply forward pressure or forward spring energy supported by the body (the water hose pressure).. When this offensive component is added the 'intent' of the opponent can be read.. Of course what is meant by 'intent' IMO will have everything to do with the core concept of the system, occupying the line, and their intent relates to this and essentially how they are leaving it (the line). The read and response should be natural and automatic, anything else IS too slow.I agree, but another part of the system is not being too 'forceful' with the hose effect, leading to overcommitment and stumbling into/over your opponent!

[YungChun]

I agree, but another part of the system is not being too 'forceful' with the hose effect, leading to overcommitment and stumbling into/over your opponent!

Agreed... But how 'hard' or how 'soft' will depend on the nature of that person's skills. And of course their is more than one way to express these things..

[Liddel]

are you really suggesting you can read what someone is going to do at full speed, with an incoming and probably returning strike, with adrenaline racing around, without even leaving your bong out...?! :eek: Sounds a bit supernatural to me.


I would agree it would be a hard read or to feel whats next, but common responses are in every art.

Bobs and weaves are wide spread in boxing training with the pads as one example. You expect a reaction is my point....which leads one to think what type of reaction.

So for me at least, certain actions are trained because i expect certain responces. And of course are also driven by my sparring/fight experience.

In terms of bong - using a falling elbow back to the waist, hands covering head
(Bi Jong) and or using a covering guarn as your hands come back to your body are two such examples i use.

The actions are supported by the body as you turn back from the bong so can support heavy attack forces IME.

NB: The dumy teaches us when comming back to center guarn is a great habbit covering action. Most of the first section of the form shows us this.

Sometimes i use Bong as a draw method, block an action and my partner sees my empty space and attacks. Drawing him in on purpose allows me to interupt my actions (cause i know whats comming) and i respond with my own attack.

The possibilities are endless. You use the kung fu. :D

DREW

[Phil Redmond]

Aside from particulars about Bong.. Part of using contact to get a 'read' is to apply forward pressure or forward spring energy supported by the body (the water hose pressure).. When this offensive component is added the 'intent' of the opponent can be read.. Of course what is meant by 'intent' IMO will have everything to do with the core concept of the system, occupying the line, and their intent relates to this and essentially how they are leaving it (the line). The read and response should be natural and automatic, anything else IS too slow.
What YungChun said. ;)

[k gledhill]

We use it in a different thinking...its a low percentage move , it doesnt require contact to function,chi sao simpy gives it a mind of its own proper function , simple , over, in fact its designed to remove contact from us if done correctly, our partners develop good elbow control to avoid being defelcted by it by using wrist force incorrectly ..furthering the simplicity of the idea. ... ballistic force is trained by using the dummy to remove, not redirect with contact like a chi-sao turning receiving the force idea, more aggresive , "out of my way" thinking so I can hit your head quicker :D
Ergo it is trained in chi-sao to move force l to r or right to l ...in chisao we simply do this to develop the parts for the 'whole' later.
This is why we dont use the vu-sao to help it, its got the body behind it in structure to literally 'slap' the punch away so the vu has a clear shot, or the space opened can be taken by a trapped elbow or whatever , etc...
We would fight a perimeter / protractor to stay out of your reach to try and feint you to hit me at the wrong spot , how good is your attack ? , rather than send 2 hands to fight one in the center. Nothing says I have to stop your big punch , it might give me a better opening if I let it go past ;) than to stop it :D

We don't receive with the bong sao .We give :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

FYI:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Bong+Sau&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

[Phil Redmond]

...... Nothing says I have to stop your big punch , it might give me a better opening if I let it go past ;) than to stop it....
Exactly, but if the big punch gets there before you have a chance to let it go past using both hands could save your face. :cool:

[k gledhill]

I can always duck ;) :D...

[Phil Redmond]

I can always duck ;) :D...
Hey, in a fight it's whatever works...:)

[k gledhill]

Ive moved my head inches in swings thrown without warning, instinctive flinch. I should do a DVD series "The Flinch" ! :D:D:D :D

1 flinch basics
2 advanced flinching
3 how to attack people who make you flinch:D

[couch]

Ive moved my head inches in swings thrown without warning, instinctive flinch. I should do a DVD series "The Flinch" ! :D:D:D :D

1 flinch basics
2 advanced flinching
3 how to attack people who make you flinch:D

IMO this is what my BJ teaches me. Immediately prior to performing a Kwai Jaat elbow, I pull my head back and tuck my chin down and in. I do this for every 'dropping' elbow.

What this teaches me is that my head can get out of the way for my body to do something AND I have the ability to move my head around in combat. I don't have to raise my head up and look around like a peac0ck while hail-mary chain punching!

I'll never forget the boxing coach say: "The minute you walk into this club, chin down. Don't raise it up for a second...not even to say hi or shake hands." So this is what the BJ is to me.

Best,
Kenton

[k gledhill]

brings back memories .......I stopped a couple of guys from coming into a bar I was doing security work at one night.... one didnt take it to well, and threw a 'big' right' without warning , he was a skinny guy a little smaller than me [Im 6'1" 185lbs?] .
I just 'reacted' by moving my head back , no thinking time, the punch sailed in an arc past my chin missing by a inch, I , instinctively , trapped his now flanked arm and used the shuffle steps fast forwards, to trap him while throwing punches with my free hand. As we reached the cars parked behind him a few feet , he was falling unconcious..2-3 punches in succession. Then a mob appeared and split us up ,after a minute or so he gets up again and starts to come at me again , I threw a front kick to his goolies , which he instinctively flinched his waist back. We know where the nuts go in a fight for a reason , they flinched long time ago !! :D and stayed flinched :D:D nature at work , I'm in full attack mode so drag 4-5 guys holding me back , using vt footwork to attack the guy with 4-5 guys coming too :D:D legs are strong ;)
point , taking what the attacker gives and letting it happen can be beneficial , rather than stopping a strike that will allow them to counter strike easier , than just letting the first go
past you by shifting a inch or 2 ....attack the space they create by just letting them move and hitting them as they do so. No need to touch hands or chase arms it frees you up to move for these reasons ...instinctively. The system teaches you not to have set responses but to react instinctively using tactical guidelines of engaging an opponent , using techniques that naturally allows us to maintain the animal instincts we have when fighting another animal....dog fight .

how good is your dogfight today ? :D meaning are you throwing your shoulder weight behind the punches off balancing you for a second to recover back weighting the lead leg...over stepping in a straight line of force ? turning your upper body too much , giving elbows to be flanked by simply moving to much across the center of the partner....? overreaching to make contact to me , simple mistakes are the ones guys will make when fighting ...we can use these 'mistakes' without ever touching them, besides a punch[or 5] to the head/jaw...etc..

there is a subtle difference in learning to send arms to meet arms , rather than move to avoid the arms working at strength to attack the person by angling and striking at the same time in close proximity along with attacking the weakness of the person , doing what comes naturally from training...not arm chasing. Striking attacks, using arms that deflect or parry along and to our line , as they strike on flanked positions.

Doing chi sao for developing this ability ?.... or 'sticky hands' one will lead to hand chasing like 'swatting flies ' in front of your head, the other will develop striking attacks with natural movement combined ...