Black Taoist to fight Bill Duff

[MasterKiller]

Stole this from the eF...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KafPZP0-FAo

[Judge Pen]

I'm not supposed to watch youtube at work. When's the fight? What are the details?

[sanjuro_ronin]

He needs to get a new heavy Bag.

[WinterPalm]

Says private video.

[MasterKiller]

LOL! It was public this morning.

[AJM]

Oh this is gonna be so good.

[Judge Pen]

Details please....

[MasterKiller]

Details please....

It doesn't say much, just that his first MMA fight will be against Bill Duff, and they he and Shariff and some others are forming a "Kung Fu" MMA team.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i may be way off base on this one but i thought i recall them discrediting the need for grappling in fighting on one of their videos a while back. maybe they were just talking about bjj. or maybe it wasn't them i am thinking of. but if it was i would be curious to see what happens in an mma fight without the grappling aspect. either way i think it will be interesting to see what they do in an mma fight using just kung fu.

[1bad65]

What is a Black Taoist?

[NJM]

What is a Black Taoist?

He's this guy who has r34l antigrapple and posts it on youtube.

[MasterKiller]

What is a Black Taoist?

He was one of the coaches on BETs "Iron Ring" show. He's a Bagua guy who posts a lot of stuff online.

[NJM]

He was one of the coaches on BETs "Iron Ring" show. He's a Bagua guy who posts a lot of stuff online.

Can you link us to the EF post about it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

i may be way off base on this one but i thought i recall them discrediting the need for grappling in fighting on one of their videos a while back. maybe they were just talking about bjj. or maybe it wasn't them i am thinking of. but if it was i would be curious to see what happens in an mma fight without the grappling aspect. either way i think it will be interesting to see what they do in an mma fight using just kung fu.

I think they were saying you don't need to train grappling if you train to counter it.
In other words, if you train your "antigrapple" ( The GnP , power drops, striking from the guard, etc) you don't need to actually take up BJJ, wrestling, Sambo, or whatever.

[MasterKiller]

I think they were saying you don't need to train grappling if you train to counter it.
In other words, if you train your "antigrapple" ( The GnP , power drops, striking from the guard, etc) you don't need to actually take up BJJ, wrestling, Sambo, or whatever.

No, he has his own "Bagua" grappling:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ggjJFEcf4Ls&feature=user

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ahw3yXfK1nE&feature=user

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, he has his own "Bagua" grappling:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ggjJFEcf4Ls&feature=user

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ahw3yXfK1nE&feature=user

Ah, so you need grappling, perferably their version of it?
Marketing.

[Ray Pina]

Well, I have to commend them for coming right out front and being honest, saying that they're not experts and experimenting... that's noble. That's what all martial artists should be doing, searching to improve.

In my own experience my advice would be to go to a local BJJ school or club. There's plenty of high-level guys with fight experience who have been in and studied these situations and have it literally down to a science. Study and train it hard.... they'll get you in the best shape of your life. You'll roll with skilled guys for hours a week at a time. Then it will develop into your own art form. These guys are ground specialists.

The hardest part is admitting that one's "chosen" coarse might not have a suitable response for certain situations. That's OK. I guarantee any serious stylist who goes into BJJ with an open mind would be pleased. I use internal principles all the time. Turns out BJJ is based on structure, leverage and timing too. But athleticism, speed and power help a lot.

So, at what weight and event is Black Taoist fighting? Is there a date?

[Ray Pina]

Watched the second video.

One thing jumps out to me that I remember having drilled into my head: position before submission.

Both players are grabbing for heads and limbs without securing position. Also, the structure in position. Never flat on one's back, turned to the side, one forearm on the hip, the other across the neck, then bridge.... fundamentals like that.

No doubt Black Taoist can move well and has sensitivity. If he trains it I would suspect he'd be catching blue and purple belts in no time.

[MasterKiller]

No doubt Black Taoist can move well and has sensitivity. If he trains it I would suspect he'd be catching blue and purple belts in no time.

I dunno about purples...

[1bad65]

No doubt Black Taoist can move well and has sensitivity. If he trains it I would suspect he'd be catching blue and purple belts in no time.

What's your BJJ credentials?

What I saw was beginner-level grappling AT MOST. And this against an opponent with little to no grappling experience either. If he goes to the ground against a decent white belt he is gonna get embarrassed.

[Pork Chop]

So, at what weight and event is Black Taoist fighting? Is there a date?

Bill Duff is a huge, ex-NFL heavyweight.
The guys BT trains with are not.
I have no idea when/where the event is going down.

[Pork Chop]

What's your BJJ credentials?


Ray's from Renzo's

[sanjuro_ronin]

Watched the second video.

One thing jumps out to me that I remember having drilled into my head: position before submission.

Both players are grabbing for heads and limbs without securing position. Also, the structure in position. Never flat on one's back, turned to the side, one forearm on the hip, the other across the neck, then bridge.... fundamentals like that.

No doubt Black Taoist can move well and has sensitivity. If he trains it I would suspect he'd be catching blue and purple belts in no time.

By "IT" do you mean BJJ or what he is doing in the clip ?

[Ray Pina]

What's your BJJ credentials?

I trained BJJ at Renzo's 2 classes a night, five days a week for five months before moving to Puerto Rico. For the first year and a half I had no training here, coming up to train about 6 to 8 hours a day at Renzo's for 10 to 15 day clips before a fight. I've done that twice.

I've been training BJJ heavy now down here for two months. I found a good crew. My coach was a college wrestler and a purple belt... he trains with an MMA fighter and BJJ black belt (under Rorian I believe) in San Juan. I don't know too much about the history because I really haven't asked too much.

My coach breaks my a$$.... 45 mins of warm ups, which includes a lot of carrying team mates, explosive drills, throws, shoots.... about 45 mins of technical/strenght/cardio training...guarding passing/side control play/.... then three minute free rounds with each team mate.

I would guess this is typical stuff for BJJ.

I had two stripes at Renzo after 3 months but then stopped handing in my card when I knew I was going to move. Never handed in a card during my visits so was never promoted. The stripes have since fallen off and overall I would say I'm rolling at a blue belt level right now. My white belt, which I wear for my BJJ training, isn't white anymore.

[Ray Pina]

If he goes to the ground against a decent white belt he is gonna get embarrassed.


I agree with you.... if it's a white belt of his size and aggression level.

I've never fought Black Taoist but he has built himself up somewhat with publicity... he's also a big dude and he appears to run with serious cats. If I had to presume I'd presume he's tougher than your average guy who's been doing BJJ as their first style for 8 months.

Also, I love BJJ but I love reality more. I'm talking ground fighting here, not sport JJ. Black Taoist has long arms. I run into a lot of BJJ guys who whine about catching an accidental forearm or knee. If Black Taoist gets comfortable with the whole position progression and degression game, how to stabilize himself in each position, he could beat some ass.

Personally I think he'd be fun to play with. If I was in NY I wouldn't mind rolling with his crew. I'll actually be up at Renzo's around Aug. 10th.

[1bad65]

Cool Ray. While BT is athletic, his grappling lacked technique and his opponent was clueless on the ground. IMO, alot of these 'anti-groundfighting' guys could actually do quite well in a grappling art, they just are so hung up this style-vs-style garbage they refuse to train with LEGIT grapplers.

[1bad65]

I've never fought Black Taoist but he has built himself up somewhat with publicity... he's also a big dude and he appears to run with serious cats. If I had to presume I'd presume he's tougher than your average guy who's been doing BJJ as their first style for 8 months.

Sounds alot like Kimbo. And we all saw how horrible he looked on the ground. And he has a very good MMA coach.


If Black Taoist gets comfortable with the whole position progression and degression game, how to stabilize himself in each position, he could beat some ass.

That's a big 'IF'.

[Ray Pina]

I admit, I was hung up on making what I was learning internally work everywhere. I'm forever grateful for what I learned. I would never have truly gone out to fight if it wasn't for the hands I learned from Master Chan, about shielding, power generation and structure.

But I learned the hard way (maybe the best and quickest way) -- getting choked out in front of a few hundred people -- that I needed to learn ground at the highest level I could find. I think any qualified BJJ school can provide that. It's so competitive. So many guys training hard.

Ultimately Black Taoist is in a tough spot. He's in his 40s I believe, right? And he's big. So he's going to be facing some big, younger guys with a lot more real fight experience.

It sucks. But it's motivating. I haven't won one fight yet but I'm making improvements as a martial artists. Which is the point I guess.

Currently I have the eye of the tiger. I expect to win my division tournament in July. Then get a win under my belt this fall.

Best laid plans of mice and men....

[Pork Chop]

It sucks. But it's motivating. I haven't won one fight yet but I'm making improvements as a martial artists. Which is the point I guess.

Currently I have the eye of the tiger. I expect to win my division tournament in July. Then get a win under my belt this fall.

Best laid plans of mice and men....

Just keep at it Ray.
You've come a long way from the guy who used to post here a while back - before the san da fight.
I really respect what you've done and look forward to bigger things from you in the future.
Like you, I'm taking my sweet time getting my W as well.
I know once we do finally get there, it'll be that much sweeter for being that much harder won.

[Toby]

Cool, that's probably the same Bill Duff as on the "Human Weapon" show?

[Pork Chop]

Cool, that's probably the same Bill Duff as on the "Human Weapon" show?

Yeah, same guy.

[Phil Redmond]

He was one of the coaches on BETs "Iron Ring" show. He's a Bagua guy who posts a lot of stuff online.
He's the big guy on the right at the start of this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayCzv6qb5EY
His name is Novell. He can fight with his art. He trained Ba Gua in China.
He was one of a few well known black and Latino martial artists featured in a martial arts documentary named "Urban Dragons". I wonder who that guy is to the right of Novell at 1:58 in the clip.....hmmm.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He's the big guy on the right at the start of this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayCzv6qb5EY
His name is Novell. He can fight with his art. He trained Ba Gua in China.
He was one of a few well known black and Latino martial artists featured in a martial arts documentary named "Urban Dragons". I wonder who that guy is to the right of Novell at 1:58 in the clip.....hmmm.

The freak with the hat?
Must be some guy that snuck in.
LOL !
;)

[golden arhat]

i remember i got blocked by black taoist for pointing out on one of his videos where he defends the double or single leg take down, all i said was that the guy trying to tkae you down as an example wasnt doing it correctly. i believe the video isnt up anymore but it should be interesting to see how he reacts to a properly trained wrestler

[monji112000]

Ah, so you need grappling, perferably their version of it?
Marketing.
hey why try and rewrite work that has already been tested? who goes into a field and doesn't study what others have already done? BT is the biggest joke on the planet. I would be willing to pay money to watch him fight a decent person. HELL august 3 let him come to the big August 3 fights.

[1bad65]

it should be interesting to see how he reacts to a properly trained wrestler

He won't do well.

[Ray Pina]

I know once we do finally get there, it'll be that much sweeter for being that much harder won.

I don't know about you, but I often feel like, "Of course I lost, I didn't even know how to...."

I get that feeling every 10 days or so because there's only a few guys where I train no so I can spend a week just working double-leg, a week working arm bars and sweep variations.

I'm definitely improving. And most of all I've made big gains mentally and emotionally.

Man, best of luck out there. Everybody's training so hard it's great.

[Phil Redmond]

The freak with the hat?
Must be some guy that snuck in.
LOL !
;)
Not the guy with the hat. I meant the cool looking guy with the brown Chinese jacket at the far left of the screen around 2:12-13, and 2:51 ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not the guy with the hat. I meant the cool looking guy with the brown Chinese jacket at the far left of the screen around 2:12-13, and 2:51 ;)

Hmmm, from that uber-sexiness, Shaft-like quality, it can only be a WC guy, probably some TWC nutrider.
:D

[Pork Chop]

I don't know about you, but I often feel like, "Of course I lost, I didn't even know how to...."


I go through that as well, but for me it's basic muay thai defenses.
Similar to boxing's "how to respond to a jab" or "how to respond to a cross", they really give you the blueprint for how to engage & what to be watching out for.
I had plenty of other reasons I lost too, and I'm working on those one-by-one.

[Phil Redmond]

Hmmm, from that uber-sexiness, Shaft-like quality, it can only be a WC guy, probably some TWC nutrider.
:D

Nutrider??? Ewwwww . . . :p

[Shaolin Wookie]

So how much weight is he going to lose. He wouldn't last two seconds in the condition he's in....standing or on the ground.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So how much weight is he going to lose. He wouldn't last two seconds in the condition he's in....standing or on the ground.

Not sure if you can make a call on a person's conditoning based on how they look, look at Fedor and a few others.

[Ray Pina]

If he's training submission grappling with experienced people the conditioning will take care of itself. Last week I almost puked. This week I almost fainted in the bathroom.

Rolling in a gi in Puerto Rico in June is sweat inducing to say the least.

[Pork Chop]

Not sure you can make a call on a person conditioning base don how they look, look at Fedor and a few others.

Your check is in the mail... :D

[wiz cool c]

[QUOTE=Ray Pina;869931]If he's training submission grappling with experienced people the conditioning will take care of itself.

I agree with that. I started doing Judo again now that I'm back in the states for a few months. Last night we did 4 rounds on the ground and four standing. That will get you in shape.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Not sure if you can make a call on a person's conditoning based on how they look, look at Fedor and a few others.

Really, I'm not. But he's really winded after a couple of seconds grappling. I'm betting he doesn't have the conditioning.

BTW, I think he has some innovative ideas. Granted, I also think he'd get handled by a good MMA guy, but I don't know who Bill Duff is, unless he's the Duffman. But his ground applications are the same as jujitsu and BJJ, so why not just study the art those guys study and add it to Bagua? He says he started studying BJJ, so it's not really Bagua, is it? Hopefully because of that he's gotten in better conditioning. BJJ wears you out, because it's a different kind of cardio and you have to maintain self-control to keep from wasting energy. I'm sure he's in somewhat better shape. He'd be interesting to watch.

[Shaolin Wookie]

If he's training submission grappling with experienced people the conditioning will take care of itself. Last week I almost puked. This week I almost fainted in the bathroom.

Rolling in a gi in Puerto Rico in June is sweat inducing to say the least.

****, and i thought forms training in a non-shaded park in GA was bad. :o. LOL. We've got outdoor conditioining for six weeks coming up. Can't wait!:p

[Merryprankster]

If he's training submission grappling with experienced people the conditioning will take care of itself.

Gosh, I wish this were true! I can verify, after years of competitive grappling at high (and sometimes not so high ;-) ) levels, that it's just not enough.

Don't get me wrong, by normal standards it's a great workout. But it's not enough on its own to put you over the top in terms of conditioning as a competitive athlete.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Gosh, I wish this were true! I can verify, after years of competitive grappling at high (and sometimes not so high ;-) ) levels, that it's just not enough.

Don't get me wrong, by normal standards it's a great workout. But it's not enough on its own to put you over the top in terms of conditioning as a competitive athlete.

And neither is Bagua.

That's why I assume he's just a big guy that can push around his friends in a park. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[Ray Pina]

Has a date been set?

[TenTigers]

****, and i thought forms training in a non-shaded park in GA was bad. :o. LOL. We've got outdoor conditioining for six weeks coming up. Can't wait!:p

I'm going to HK and Thailand for some R&R and training this August-the hottest time of the year!- can't wait. I am doing all my cardio during the hottest part of the day to get acclimated.

[Judge Pen]

I don't know who Bill Duff is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Duff


From http://www.history.com/

Bill Duff
Pro football player, bodyguard, wrestler and stunt double, Bill Duff holds a brown belt in Korean street fighting (Toa So Dou) under Master Davis of the Wa Wrang Studios in Riverside, NJ. Duff is a two-time heavyweight state champion wrestler, member of the NJ Hall of fame, and undefeated in bar fights. At 6'4, 280lbs, Duff was a professional football player for seven years. He started for the Orlando Rage in the XFL and spent the 2000 and 2002 NFL Europe seasons with the Berlin Thunder, helping them win the 2002 World Bowl Championships. Continuing his career with the Arena Football league, he played for the Indianapolis Firebirds and Columbus Destroyers. Prior to this, Duff played for the Cleveland Browns in their expansion year 1999-2000. He was also co-captain of the 1997 SEC champion Tennessee Volunteers.

[Ray Pina]

Has a date been set?

Anyone taking bets?

[yenhoi]

Well... Bill Duff is not very far from a joke as far as fighters go... Unless his credentials have somehow greatly changed since the show started airing...

Id still put the odds on him for this match at any rate.

:eek:

[monji112000]

Well... Bill Duff is not very far from a joke as far as fighters go... Unless his credentials have somehow greatly changed since the show started airing...

Id still put the odds on him for this match at any rate.

:eek:

what you don't believe in the iron baqua fingers? I would love to actually see someone who can fight using bagua..

[Lucas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Duff


From http://www.history.com/

Bill Duff
Pro football player, bodyguard, wrestler and stunt double, Bill Duff holds a brown belt in Korean street fighting (Toa So Dou) under Master Davis of the Wa Wrang Studios in Riverside, NJ. Duff is a two-time heavyweight state champion wrestler, member of the NJ Hall of fame, and undefeated in bar fights. At 6'4, 280lbs, Duff was a professional football player for seven years. He started for the Orlando Rage in the XFL and spent the 2000 and 2002 NFL Europe seasons with the Berlin Thunder, helping them win the 2002 World Bowl Championships. Continuing his career with the Arena Football league, he played for the Indianapolis Firebirds and Columbus Destroyers. Prior to this, Duff played for the Cleveland Browns in their expansion year 1999-2000. He was also co-captain of the 1997 SEC champion Tennessee Volunteers.

How can one validate the bolded portion?

[sanjuro_ronin]

How can one validate the bolded portion?

Ask the Bar?

heck I am undefeated in all my street fights, you can ask any street I have beaten up.

[Lucas]

Ask the Bar?

heck I am undefeated in all my street fights, you can ask any street I have beaten up.

I saw my friend lose a bar fight once. He just walked right into it while he was talking and got KTFO.

Was really really, and boy do i mean REALLY funny.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I saw my friend lose a bar fight once. He just walked right into it while he was talking and got KTFO.

Was really really, and boy do i mean REALLY funny.

The bar sucker punched him?

[Lucas]

The bar sucker punched him?

Yep. Jumped out of no where, right onto the sidewalk in front of him. Left him a nasty bump on his fore head.

[sanjuro_ronin]

yep. Jumped out of no where, right onto the sidewalk in front of him. Left him a nasty bump on his fore head.

i hate when that happens !

[Lucas]

Ya, so did he.

I think he hated it more when he woke up on the sidewalk and us, his friends, were just standing there laughing at him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ya, so did he.

I think he hated it more when he woke up on the sidewalk and us, his friends, were just standing there laughing at him.

At least he didn't wake up while you guys were urinating on him...

[Lucas]

At least he didn't wake up while you guys were urinating on him...

Ya luckily he slept right through that part.

[Ray Pina]

I would love to actually see someone who can fight using bagua..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ4v1SrzB6Q

I would argue that there's some Ba Gua built into the ability to stick hands, follow, and maintain posture and striking power from short range in the second match above...2:40 in.

[Ray Pina]

Right now my money is on that fight not happening.

I'd love to see it though. I know Black Taoist has made quite a name for himself online, posting urban training clips and challenging people (who from my end seamed to be older, retired, teaching/coaching sorts) but I've never heard of anyone remotely "known" nor his size that he has fought. Certainly no one competitive.

That guy Bill Duff looks tough. You don't get to that level of football without being strong and determined. That trait, the fighting he did on the show alone and the fact that he pairs up well with BT in size..... I'd put $5,000 down for sure.

[1bad65]

Right now my money is on that fight not happening.

I know Black Taoist has made quite a name for himself online, posting urban training clips and challenging people (who from my end seamed to be older, retired, teaching/coaching sorts) but I've never heard of anyone remotely "known" nor his size that he has fought. Certainly no one competitive.

You don't say!! Sounds alot like JFS.

Based on what I heard and read, he ducked Nick 'The Goat' Thompson. Challenging a professional fighter to a street fight is like challenging a NHRA driver to race you at the local track. You know it's not gonna happen, so you can talk all the smack you want knowing you won't have to back it up.

[monji112000]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ4v1SrzB6Q

I would argue that there's some Ba Gua built into the ability to stick hands, follow, and maintain posture and striking power from short range in the second match above...2:40 in.
your joking right? your not for real.... are you?:confused:

[Ray Pina]

Challenging a professional fighter to a street fight is like challenging a NHRA driver to race you at the local track.

I know.

I used to think the other way. But then I realized, well, if you think you are skilled there are venues to display it. And then I quickly realized how hard guys are training to kick like mules, or roll like a machine. My goal now is to win one amature MMA match.... not as easy as it sounds. Everyone's training hard.

[David Jamieson]

your joking right? your not for real.... are you?:confused:


nope, that's ray. lol
actually there's a lot of good stuff in there.

[Ray Pina]

your joking right?

No. Seriously.

I would say internal is what taught me how to shield to where I'm comfortable moving in and out of range. It also taught me sensitivity and the mechanics.

I admit, you could learn such skills from other styles. No argument here.

If you're just an internet hater I'm not going to argue with you. That fight is about two years old (I just thought that moment illustrated the point) but I think putting someone down with one solid shot to the chin is kind of timeless.

I had only been training jiu-jitsu for about a month (five days a week) at the time of that fight, so I do miss tons of opportunities. But generally, fighting to submission with a man of equal weight, 10 years my junior who is also a competing amature MMA player, and winning unscathed.... not a bad day's work.

[David Jamieson]

the skill you exhibit is subtle ray, but your intention is quite clear.

i do think the vagabond pants freak out the sportsy guys though.

any cryptic hippies with a good punch kinda screws up their perceptions of a sea of buff bald guys with goatees in thai shorts and fingerless gloves getting cheered on by a bunch of chubbier bald guys with goatees and basball hats along with chicks in bikinis who will provide them with lap dances and belly shooters if they win their match.

:D

[TenTigers]

as far as I recall, BT did not challenge Thompson, some kid on another site instigated the entire thing because he did not like what BT was saying, and he went running to Thompson. The problem with the internet is that these things spin out of control.
BT has always been pretty upfront and open, as well as open minded. He fights with his BaGua, and has always maintained the attitude that TCMA should be taught with practical, and effective combat in mind.

[1bad65]

I used to think the other way. But then I realized, well, if you think you are skilled there are venues to display it. And then I quickly realized how hard guys are training to kick like mules, or roll like a machine. My goal now is to win one amature MMA match.... not as easy as it sounds. Everyone's training hard.

Exactly. And you get paid too if you do it as a pro.

Good luck when you fight. ;)

[1bad65]

He fights with his BaGua,...

Who has he fought?

[WinterPalm]

a sea of buff bald guys with goatees in thai shorts and fingerless gloves getting cheered on by a bunch of chubbier bald guys with goatees and basball hats along with chicks in bikinis who will provide them with lap dances and belly shooters if they win their match.

:D

Good god that was eloquent and exact.:D

[cjurakpt]

Good god that was eloquent and exact.:D

heck, I'm shaving my head and growing a goatee as I read this...

[monji112000]

No. Seriously.

I would say internal is what taught me how to shield to where I'm comfortable moving in and out of range. It also taught me sensitivity and the mechanics.

I admit, you could learn such skills from other styles. No argument here.

If you're just an internet hater I'm not going to argue with you. That fight is about two years old (I just thought that moment illustrated the point) but I think putting someone down with one solid shot to the chin is kind of timeless.

I had only been training jiu-jitsu for about a month (five days a week) at the time of that fight, so I do miss tons of opportunities. But generally, fighting to submission with a man of equal weight, 10 years my junior who is also a competing amature MMA player, and winning unscathed.... not a bad day's work.
not hating at all. You looked better at ground positioning than at any standup. JMO
Any recent clips?

[cjurakpt]

Bill Duff
Pro football player, bodyguard, wrestler and stunt double, Bill Duff holds a brown belt in Korean street fighting (Toa So Dou) under Master Davis of the Wa Wrang Studios in Riverside, NJ. Duff is a two-time heavyweight state champion wrestler, member of the NJ Hall of fame, and undefeated in bar fights. At 6'4, 280lbs, Duff was a professional football player for seven years. He started for the Orlando Rage in the XFL and spent the 2000 and 2002 NFL Europe seasons with the Berlin Thunder, helping them win the 2002 World Bowl Championships. Continuing his career with the Arena Football league, he played for the Indianapolis Firebirds and Columbus Destroyers. Prior to this, Duff played for the Cleveland Browns in their expansion year 1999-2000. He was also co-captain of the 1997 SEC champion Tennessee Volunteers.

I thought he was the guy that makes the beer that Homer Simpson likes to drink...

[SoCo KungFu]

heck, I'm shaving my head and growing a goatee as I read this...

Been there done that...bring on the bikini girls and belly shots :D

[SoCo KungFu]

Been there done that...bring on the bikini girls and belly shots :D

$h!t...forgot about that winning matches part.....

[cjurakpt]

Been there done that...bring on the bikini girls and belly shots :D

exactly! (shaves head faster)


$h!t...forgot about that winning matches part.....

:mad: (throws down razor in disgust)

[Pork Chop]

as far as I recall, BT did not challenge Thompson, some kid on another site instigated the entire thing because he did not like what BT was saying, and he went running to Thompson. The problem with the internet is that these things spin out of control.
BT has always been pretty upfront and open, as well as open minded. He fights with his BaGua, and has always maintained the attitude that TCMA should be taught with practical, and effective combat in mind.

Actually, Maoshan's the one that started it, with comments like these:


"Prior to 1930, all MA contest In China had no rules. After that point it was no eyes, no groin, or spine. Full technique was employed. My question to you is do you think that BJJ could handle the full technique of any style from a properly trained practitioner without all the limitations? I feel it would change things considerably, for example: An Eagle claw stylist of Kung Fu speciality is locks with a training goal of the grip alone being able to pulverize bone.A snake stylist who uses his fingers to strike with the power to penetrate an inch from the surface of the body. There are a lot of skills out here that still exist, but understandably these abilities are not allowed into the sports arena. The whole MMA mentality has really gotten a little out of hand. It's a sport, not true Martial arts. Martial means war. The only prize ina fight like that is being able to walk away."

and


“As for your remarks to kung fu, you watch too many movies. Kung Fu is the art of survival. No MMAer would survive an encounter against the basic technique of a properly trained practitioner.”

Also,


“What your not looking at is the fact that MMA is a by product of this commercialism. What your calling MMA fight's are nothing more than tough man fight's. You can count the fighters with any real skill. You see charge and hit the floor then who's stronger. none of it would work against any real technique.”

These quotes appeared on the BET forums & youtube. They were reposted on Sherdog and the Underground.

When about 50 people called "BS" - including WEC champ Nick "the Goat" Thompson himself - and invited Maoshan et al to prove it in a Vale Tudo match (ie no rules, eagle claws allowed), which can still be found in the NYC metro area (whether fully sanctioned or not); he started crying about being challenged and saying "well come to the park to meet me".

First off, he gave out the park in NYC, when he lives up in Syracuse.
Second off, the general consensus was to meet in a neutral area so no funny business could go down at the park. Apparently that simple request was too much of a "b!tch move" to him - it also got him thinking nobody was going to follow through on calling him on his BS, so he started talking even more.

Nick said "i'll fight there, but you gotta put up X-amount as a purse, because I get paid to fight".
But he also added "or you can fight one of my lesser known teammates for free, just gotta cover a plane ticket".

Last I heard, they were working on even giving Maoshan a few plane tickets to fly out to an event and fight one of Nick's teammates.

Nick wasn't the only one pushing for the fight though. There were other, lesser known guys from the NYC area that were trying to get them to back up their words at a more local event.

This is not really a case of people toting the party line and saying "mma is the ultimate".
They just think if you're gonna make crazy claims then you should at least back it up.
If you do, more respect to you.
Otherwise, if you don't & you just talk mad trash about people who actually DO put their a$$ in harm's way, then you're nothing but a punk.

That's why I think it's interesting that BT's changed his tune on that Team Bangout vid; making comments that seem to distance himself from Maoshan's line of thinking. It'll be interesting to see what Team Bangout accomplishes.

[TenTigers]

you're right, it was Maoshan and not BT. I was going to correct it, but had to run out the door.My mistake.
I stand corrected.

[Ray Pina]

You looked better at ground positioning than at any standup. JMO
Any recent clips?

Here's a clip of my last fight: http://youtube.com/watch?v=3qOEmK1Yiuk from Dec. 2007.

I injured by right shoulder so my striking wasn't crisp, I was clinched and taken down quite easily. My opponant, Erik Koller, was a good man, with a lot of wrestling.... he was killed in a motorcycle accident two months ago.

No doubt he controlled the action and deserved to win.

[Ray Pina]

No one in their right mind is going to fight outside of a sanctioned event. I didn't understand this when I was doing Throwdowns.

I'm training too hard, with my eye on the prize, to catch an elbow or pop a shoulder fighting for nothing at Fight House. Anything can happen.

The other side of that coin is that I NEVER LOST a Throwdown. I've NEVER WON a sanctioned match. The difference between the level of a recreational player sand someone training with fighting, not on their mind, but as a reality they'll face in a month is night and day.

Black Taoist has billed himself up over the internet, not by fighting like Kimbo, but by posting videos training with his students. That's fine, but to secure his reputation he needs to fight someone, and not a bum. And he's not getting any younger.

[Ray Pina]

Watched my last fight... been a while.

I'm a total kook still and need to keep my mouth shut and train.

Peace. And best luck to everyone out there and Mr. Duff and Black Taoist if there fight every happens, which again, I'm betting doesn't.;)

[lkfmdc]

No one in their right mind is going to fight outside of a sanctioned event. I didn't understand this when I was doing Throwdowns.

I'm training too hard, with my eye on the prize, to catch an elbow or pop a shoulder fighting for nothing at Fight House. Anything can happen.

The other side of that coin is that I NEVER LOST a Throwdown. I've NEVER WON a sanctioned match. The difference between the level of a recreational player and someone training with fighting, not on their mind, but as a reality they'll face in a month is night and day.



This should be cut and pasted into like 12 different threads that are still active here ;)

:D

[monji112000]

Here's a clip of my last fight: http://youtube.com/watch?v=3qOEmK1Yiuk from Dec. 2007.

I injured by right shoulder so my striking wasn't crisp, I was clinched and taken down quite easily. My opponent, Erik Koller, was a good man, with a lot of wrestling.... he was killed in a motorcycle accident two months ago.

No doubt he controlled the action and deserved to win.

good fight, much better than the first clip you sent. I respect everyone that steps up and fights. I'm sorry to hear that he was killed. The thing is people think you can rush in get one good punch end of fight. So many areas to get at least ok at ... clinching, takedown(and avoiding), escaping..

You train at fighthouse? I heard they have grappling tournaments once a month is that true?

[Ray Pina]

This should be cut and pasted into like 12 different threads that are still active here ;)

:D

You and a few guys were telling me that years ago and you were right. Just that I was frustrated not having a venue to test what I was learning.

The reality, there's plenty of venues to train safely. T I don't jones to fight now like I do then because I get it out of my system training, tapping and being tapped daily.

[Ray Pina]

You train at fighthouse?

I used to attend Throwdowns there. I became friendly with the female master that runs the place; she is very cool.

I live in Puerto Rico now. Found Jiu-Jitsu out here so I'm stoked on that. Training harder than ever but no stand up right now. Got a bag hung. Going to start taking boxing twice a week, add some Judo.

[Pork Chop]

I don't jones to fight now like I do then because I get it out of my system training, tapping and being tapped daily.

When I was training "pure" kung fu; for years I was constantly stressed about my training- whether or not it had any combat value, coz I just wasn't seeing it. I kept getting told that after 5 or 10 years I'd just magically be able to put it together; but I didn't see anything in practice that reinforced that belief. Switching to a more full contact venue, constantly testing my stuff & being tested; even if only in the gym, really assuaged those doubts. The folks that I know real well from here, that I chat with on almost a daily basis really saw that change in me. Now my questions are based around if I'm doing enough to win - be it dropping weight to make a more "appropriate" weight class, or whether I'm training hard enough. The transformation was really quite drastic. It's interesting how the sport stuff, with its competition formats, really brings that about.

[David Jamieson]

No one in their right mind is going to fight outside of a sanctioned event. I didn't understand this when I was doing Throwdowns.

I'm training too hard, with my eye on the prize, to catch an elbow or pop a shoulder fighting for nothing at Fight House. Anything can happen.

The other side of that coin is that I NEVER LOST a Throwdown. I've NEVER WON a sanctioned match. The difference between the level of a recreational player sand someone training with fighting, not on their mind, but as a reality they'll face in a month is night and day.

Black Taoist has billed himself up over the internet, not by fighting like Kimbo, but by posting videos training with his students. That's fine, but to secure his reputation he needs to fight someone, and not a bum. And he's not getting any younger.

This really smells correct.

[wiz cool c]

Who has he fought?

He won two San Da fights against some Chinese team and some continuous sparring tournaments and push hand tournaments first place.

[1bad65]

He won two San Da fights against some Chinese team and some continuous sparring tournaments and push hand tournaments first place.

But no MMA fights, right?

[Ray Pina]

It could be easily argued that those were more Chinese tournament-style full contact matches taking place in a ring. I don't think they were sanctioned or anything like that.

I saw the video of one. It was fighting, certainly not sparring, but it was older, before San Da became established. The level is nowhere near what you see today at sanctioned amateur matches.

That's neither here nor there though. Surely Black Taoist has improved over the years. That's why I'd like to see this fight happen and am curious. Is his Ba Gua that good? Or is he just bigger and more aggressive than most kung fu players he comes in contact with and thus wins through intimidation, scaring people away.

Bill Duff won't be scared. Anyone in a sanction match will be similar in size and thus an opportunity to see if he possesses something extra-ordinary or not. Otherwise, I've already done much more fighting than him... against guys younger and bigger. And I'm a kook. I can't hold a jock strap to pro MMA guys in my weight class. They'd eat me up.... right now. But I'm training.:)

[Satori Science]

I saw the video of one. It was fighting, certainly not sparring, but it was older, before San Da became established. The level is nowhere near what you see today at sanctioned amateur matches.


Im pretty sure he beat the team captain of the Beijing Sanda team(if I am mistaken then he was a member of that team) The only American fighter that won a bout that night against the Beijing team.

I would wager the fighter was on par with the average sanctioned amateur sanda fighter.

[wiz cool c]

But no MMA fights, right?


I don't know.

[monji112000]

He won two San Da fights against some Chinese team and some continuous sparring tournaments and push hand tournaments first place.

first place in push hands and continuous sparring.. why isn't he on tuf?
:confused:

[David Jamieson]

The thing abouta fight is, that regardless of the lead up, the outcome can only be determined when the outcome is iminent.

you can't bag on either of these guys and you can't predict a winner because neither of them is predictable and both are only measurable by some sound bites and clips tt don't show the whole story about training paths, patterns, practices.

one or two images of a guy hitting a bag or the track record of a football player say nothing about how each opf them will react and perform come fight time.

whether someone has fought mma is also irrelevant, people have been fighting for ever and mma is just another word heaped onto the pile.
training is training.

the effect is yet to be seen. I am sure they are both happy to have a little buzz growing about it.

In my personal opinion, there is nothing ground shaking to be coming of this event and it is a couple fo guys going at it in a marketed way. Neither has a track record of being a great or notable fighter, so it remains to be seen if this fight will be of any overall value at all.

this is about all the buy in I can give this because of the lack of tenable credentials on either persons side.

[Ray Pina]

The thing abouta fight is, that regardless of the lead up, the outcome can only be determined when the outcome is iminent.


I guessing we'll never know then. It's my belief that Black Taoist is going to duck this fight.

[Ray Pina]

But no MMA fights, right?

Hell no. If he fought in the cage the video would be running on continuous loop the way he promotes himself.

[1bad65]

whether someone has fought mma is also irrelevant, people have been fighting for ever and mma is just another word heaped onto the pile.
training is training.

Other than this, I agreed with the rest of your post.

[Ray Pina]

I

I would wager the fighter was on par with the average sanctioned amateur sanda fighter.

No way. I saw that fight. If someone has the inclination I'm sure they could dig it up somewhere. Amateur San Da is brutal today. Especially in Black Taoist's weight class. Big guys slamming each other. It's actually awesome to watch.

[Ray Pina]

both are only measurable by some sound bites and clips tt don't show the whole story about training paths, patterns, practices.

.


I don't know about this.

Black Taoist has been training martial arts for a long time, yet no sanctioned fights? No fight footage of him going against anyone even remotely his size. And if he had we'd have seen it. I've seen him throw his students in the park. I've seen him throw his students in the playground, apartment building and hall ways. I've heard him bad mouth me, my master and many others...... but all this time as a martial artists, all his criticisms of how bad other's kung fu is today, and no real fights himself? I get antsy after four months of improving without testing.

Now you have Duff. Someone who has competed in his thing at almost the highest level, maybe the equivalent of fighting in King of the Cage. I played half a season of college football.... hard as hell. Waaaay too competitive for me.

Then there is all the fighting Duff has done already, as a relative newbie, on the show. Already more fights then Novell. And an apparent propensity to train in what will work and then go test it.

No, I think you can make some reasonable judgments. And one that I am making is that Novell Bell doesn't want to get his ass kicked on video, he has staked too much on his reputation to start fighting now. At his age guys start to retire and teach, not start fighting.

By not fighting he can still sell a lot of videos and get interviews and keep his urban master profile.

[1bad65]

By not fighting he can still sell a lot of videos and get interviews and keep his urban master profile.

Exactly. Just like you said, I'm sure he is gonna duck this fight.

[Flying-Monkey]

I don't know about this.

Black Taoist has been training martial arts for a long time, yet no sanctioned fights? No fight footage of him going against anyone even remotely his size. And if he had we'd have seen it. I've seen him throw his students in the park. I've seen him throw his students in the playground, apartment building and hall ways. I've heard him bad mouth me, my master and many others...... but all this time as a martial artists, all his criticisms of how bad other's kung fu is today, and no real fights himself? I get antsy after four months of improving without testing.

Now you have Duff. Someone who has competed in his thing at almost the highest level, maybe the equivalent of fighting in King of the Cage. I played half a season of college football.... hard as hell. Waaaay too competitive for me.

Then there is all the fighting Duff has done already, as a relative newbie, on the show. Already more fights then Novell. And an apparent propensity to train in what will work and then go test it.

No, I think you can make some reasonable judgments. And one that I am making is that Novell Bell doesn't want to get his ass kicked on video, he has staked too much on his reputation to start fighting now. At his age guys start to retire and teach, not start fighting.

By not fighting he can still sell a lot of videos and get interviews and keep his urban master profile.


These are great points!

[1bad65]

He won two San Da fights against some Chinese team and some continuous sparring tournaments and push hand tournaments first place.

Was this San Da tournament in New York?

[Ray Pina]

Someone posted the fight here years ago.

If it was San Da the fight would have been sanctioned by the state and a record of it would also be somewhere. When I competed in sanctioned San Da events schools came from as far away as Boston and Pittsburgh. I don't know if Novell's match was sanctioned or not.

I will say from what I see on his videos his techniques look sound. Everyone has a preference, and thus they think their way is best, but it appears Novell has trapping, sticking and following abilities. From what I've seen I'm confident he could pull those off in real fights. The question is can he pull them off against someone who is equal in size, trained and motivated.

That's ultimately the state of things today... at least with the guys that are pushing it.

Yea, I can drop your average mini-ball black belt or tap a total tool. But against the crisp striker? Against a BJJ brown belt?

That's a whole other story. That's where extra-ordinary skill starts... that's where the book and video money SHOULD lie.

[KC Elbows]

I can drop your average mini-ball black belt...

Until you beat a ninja with an undescended testicle,* you'll never be Michael Dudikoff.













*whether it is a ninja with an undescended testicle that you beat, or a testicularly ordinary ninja that you beat using an undescended testicle is unimportant. Style points if it is the latter, especially if you somehow beat him with your own undescended testicle, but please, no need for video proof.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Until you beat a ninja with an undescended testicle,* you'll never be Michael Dudikoff.













*whether it is a ninja with an undescended testicle that you beat, or a testicularly ordinary ninja that you beat using an undescended testicle is unimportant. Style points if it is the latter, and you somehow beat him with your own undescended testicle, but please, no need for video proof.

Words fail me....

[1bad65]

If it was San Da the fight would have been sanctioned by the state and a record of it would also be somewhere. When I competed in sanctioned San Da events schools came from as far away as Boston and Pittsburgh. I don't know if Novell's match was sanctioned or not.

The info I found on this event makes it look very shady.

A company no one ever heard of promoted it and despite it being held in NYC none of the other NYC fighters or gyms were involved. The fighters were students of the promoters! :eek:

http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/sanshou01.htm -Scroll down to "PROTECTING TRUE SAN SHOU!"

[Lucas]

Thats interesting. So thats an old event right?

If those China fighters are that good, and this black taoist guy defeated them, then he cant be all talk.

[MasterKiller]

The info I found on this event makes it look very shady.

A company no one ever heard of promoted it and despite it being held in NYC none of the other NYC fighters or gyms were involved. The fighters were students of the promoters! :eek:

http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/sanshou01.htm -Scroll down to "PROTECTING TRUE SAN SHOU!"

Where does it say that BT fought on this card? I thought BT's fights were when he was training in China.

[lkfmdc]

Novell's fights were when he was with Li Tai Liang, and that article is indeed about Li's event(s)... they held two of them, both were fishy

[KC Elbows]

The info I found on this event makes it look very shady.

A company no one ever heard of promoted it and despite it being held in NYC none of the other NYC fighters or gyms were involved. The fighters were students of the promoters! :eek:

http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/sanshou01.htm -Scroll down to "PROTECTING TRUE SAN SHOU!"

Correction, the American fighters were students of the promoters.

That link, however, is clear that the Chinese fighters were pros. It's hard to come up with a hypothetical in which the Chinese would have their fighters take a dive against an American, regardless how fly by night the promoters may or may not have been.

[KC Elbows]

Fishy, huh? Like, fixed fishy, or just run in a fly by night manner?

[1bad65]

Correction, the American fighters were students of the promoters.

That's my point. The promoter's students, who appeared to have never fought before, were supposedly fighting China's pros and winning?!?! And no other schools were represented? Not even the schools in NYC? Or the other pro fighters in NYC?

Thats ALOT of red flags.

[Lucas]

gotcha, that is phisshy

[Ray Pina]

The fights were legit. Let's not take anything away from anyone who put it on the line.


With that said, I believe it was Black Taoist himself that posted footage of one of his fights and after everyone said, "awesome for fighting" ... and then degraded the level of skill that he and his opponent exhibited. The video then disappeared.

From what I recall the action looked awfully like a full-contact karate tournament... a lot of long-range kicks.... no committed engagements.

Even though it was years ago, even though San Da had not really taken off yet, I can't believe those were pros. They just weren't sharp. They couldn't compete with Ross' amateurs for sure.... which is maybe why they weren't invited. I don't know.

The reason I ask about the sanctioning because I would imagine it would be hard to match a Chinese up with Novell.... what is he, 6'7", 6'8".... 230lbs?

[1bad65]

The fights were legit. Let's not take anything away from anyone who put it on the line.

I'm not so sure.

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/kingofsanda/opennews.html


With that said, I believe it was Black Taoist himself that posted footage of one of his fights...

Where is this footage? I'd love to see it.


From what I recall the action looked awfully like a full-contact karate tournament... a lot of long-range kicks.... no committed engagements.

Even though it was years ago, even though San Da had not really taken off yet, I can't believe those were pros.

Was this event really sanctioned by the State of NY? I'm faily certain that MMA was not legal in NY back then. If it was not sanctioned by the State, it could have been fixed and no crime would have occurred.


The reason I ask about the sanctioning because I would imagine it would be hard to match a Chinese up with Novell.... what is he, 6'7", 6'8".... 230lbs?

I regularly work out with a guy of that EXACT size. He is nowhere near as fat/thick/round as Novell based on his shot-in-the-park videos I've seen. Novell is either much shorter or much heavier or both.

[TenTigers]

y'know, it's funny how people are posting about BT as if he has no idea of what he is getting into. Novell has been around for a long time, and he is an intelligent man. It's not as if he has no clue, lives in a cave, hasn't really seen MMA, doesn't own a TV or computer and seen it on youtube, hasn't looked into the sport. He's been rolling for quite a bit now, and I think he's done his homework, and is well aware of the level of training that is required. You guys make it sound as if he's one of those point-fighting guys who first walked into the UFC I & II, and got trashed.
I don't believe it will be nearly as one-sided as you think.

[1bad65]

y'know, it's funny how people are posting about BT as if he has no idea of what he is getting into.

He knows exactly what he would be getting into. It's why he ducked Thompson.


I don't believe it will be nearly as one-sided as you think.

It won't be any-sided. ;) Because BT won't ever fight anyone in a sanctioned MMA bout.

[Ray Pina]

By saying the fight was "legit," I meant to say it looked as if Novell and his opponent were fighting, not sparring... I never even considered a fix. I would never imply that without actual knowledge.

It wasn't MMA. I know that fore sure. And again, I contend the level of performance I saw does not meet today's amateur San Da level. It just doesn't.

As for Novell himself, he has been around along time and I can admire and respect his love of not only Kung Fu, but internal martial arts. I myself have found great value there.

With that said, Novell has spent the past 10 years talking **** on the internet. This is just a fact. Years ago I told him he should fight Kimbo or someone like that, instead of challenging weekend warrior Kung Fu guys over the internet. Fact of the matter is, Novell is a BIG man and whether he likes it or not prejudice is attached to that. Unless he fights someone of his size -- we can even forget skill level -- he appears to be a bully. Now the notion of someone his size and somewhat skilled?

I hope he fights. I really do. I'd love to see it. A side of me hopes he wins while demonstrating some extra-ordinary skill... not out of any love for him but for love of something different, for the old beating the young. Novell inspired me to take my training to a new level years ago, because I wanted to fight him and had to consider his long reach. For that I am thankful.

There is a side to this though that smells of "The chickens coming home to roost." You can only proclaim yourself to be so big and bad before attracting someone who insists they're bigger and badder. And if that person has been fighting all those years you've been typing, you can have a bad day.

[Lucas]

it just disturbs more than anything that one of the tags for this thread is:

"black toaist eats ass"

just scary

[Eddie]

I think Ray Pina’s posts were some of the most mature posts ever to be posted on this forum.

China’s professional teams are not professional in the way we know it to be in the west. The coach will come up to a guy and say you fight tomorrow, and that’s what he will do. However, no one can deny the skill in China. Having trained both in Beijing and Wuhan at two different san shou schools, I can honestly say that the Chinese are serious, and they train hard. I also doubt that any Chinese fighter would ever fix a fight against an American. They just don’t do that, and the Chinese captain or team leader, and even the American Chinese coach, would never do that.

I only know Bill Duff from Human Weapon. I really liked that show. I think he is cool. Im the same size as him (6ft4), and I think he seemed humble enough to me. I don’t know black Taoist, other than his videos, I don’t know much about him. He does look tuff and no doubt he has some skill.

Guess we will just wait and see. I cant care either way. Good luck to both.

Speaking of Human weapons…. The small guy, (Jason chambers I think?) really impressed me. Maybe we can see him fight the smaller guy from Fight Quest (the army guy). Either way, I think they should have a Human Weapon vs Fight Quest match soon.

[1bad65]

Knowing the Chinese teams are so good, why would a promoter put his own guys against them who have never even fought before?

[1bad65]

All the Chinese guys were from the same team in China. The promoter brought in his own students to fight them.

But BT fought an American. What school did he come from? :confused:

[Eddie]

Yeah I am probably wrong. Don’t thrash me for it.
Anyways, I dont have much to say on this other than I wish both fighters good luck.

[The Willow Sword]

Well i dont know WHY Novell is placating to all these stalkers and challenges and why he is even considering going through with a challenge. Ive corresponded with Novell briefly and i have watched his vids along with Sharif. They are street people who seem to have it together and they live and survive the best way they can. I guess it is typical to get wrapped up in the trash talking that has come FIRST from the MMA community and guys like Phrost albeit that they take pot shots at the crappy kung fu and other MA that is out there. Yes we know that a skilled ground fighter is going to prevail on the ground and YES we know that MMA grappling and ground fighting is superior in the "competition" arena. Old news, its a given. what the fuk ever:rolleyes:. Still doesnt say anything when you are out there on the street and its about survival, you DONT know who will prevail,you can guess and theorize all you want,you will not know until you experience what it is like to fight for your LIFE.

BT(Novell) and the others in his crew i have ALOT of respect for simply because of the content of what they practice(because i used to be a bagua player so i feel kinship in that respect) PLus in my correspondance with Novell on my own questions and concerns were met with respect and intelligence and rationality. What i dont condone or support are these rooster crowing challenges that go on and certain posters HERE who keep the diatribe going.

1bad65, If you want to train as a professional fighter like Liddel and guys like him then go for it, get in the ring, train yourself, make YOUR challenges and Meet them and have some self respect. redirect that energy that you utilize to you flap your mouth and keyboard box here and STFU and get real with yourself!! Learn and put the pieces back together of the egg you have burst out of.(there is an old picture anaolgy that describes the levels of Karate in terms of belts) White Belt is a glowing new egg, Yellow Belt the egg is shuttering and cracking, brown belt the egg has a Martial artist exploding out of it with a fierce yell and a kick. Black Belt is the egg pieced back together with a slit towrds the top with two eyes peering out.

Nuff said, PEACE, TWS

[1bad65]

They are street people who seem to have it together and they live and survive the best way they can.

That's ridiculous. He lives in NYC, not Iraq.

What do you mean by 'street people'? He doesn't look homeless, and he sure looks well fed.


I guess it is typical to get wrapped up in the trash talking that has come FIRST from the MMA community and guys like Phrost albeit that they take pot shots at the crappy kung fu and other MA that is out there.

What i dont condone or support are these rooster crowing challenges that go on and certain posters HERE who keep the diatribe going.

Ah, BT started all this trash talking. Then he got called out to actually put up, he ducked. And he had guys like you defend his JFS-style antics.


1bad65, make YOUR challenges and Meet them and have some self respect.

That's the thing idiot, I don't drop challenges. Look at those who do; Fox and BT look like punks when they never actually carry them out, Omar looked stupid ducking a girl, and JFS and SifuExcuses got whipped on camera. I think I'll take a pass at joining that group of knuckleheads.

Bottom line, and both me and Ray agree on this, BT will NEVER fight in a sanctioned MMA fight. And that includes fighting Bill Duff.

[1bad65]

Since your so buddy-buddy with him, try answering my questions in Posts #128 and 129.

[The Willow Sword]

That's the thing idiot, I don't drop challenges

Yes that's right ole 1bad65 is too good for that sort of thing, its beneath him to make challenges to others.:rolleyes:


I think I'll take a pass at joining that group of knuckleheads.
Well i can understand that,1bad, you are in a class of knucklehead all to yourself.:D

Where is it that you train again? Does your teacher(s) promote your kind of attitude at your gym/dojo? Have they looked at your posts? I wonder how your teachers REALLY feel about your BS here on the net and having others call your teacher's school and harrassing them etc etc. Seems to me that any MMA school with any amount of self respect would have slapped you up side the fukin head and put the kabosh on your BS long ago and either set you straight or kicked your a$$ out. I dont know, would the other MMA'ers here care to chime in on this?

Peace,TWS

[Ray Pina]

I guess it is typical to get wrapped up in the trash talking that has come FIRST from the MMA community and guys like Phrost albeit that they take pot shots at the crappy kung fu and other MA that is out there. Yes we know that a skilled ground fighter is going to prevail on the ground and YES we know that MMA grappling and ground fighting is superior in the "competition" arena....Still doesnt say anything when you are out there on the street and its about survival, you DONT know who will prevail,you can guess and theorize all you want,you will not know until you experience what it is like to fight for your LIFE.

This attitude drives me nuts. On what grounds can you assume that a Kung Fu player working mostly forms and push hands, sparring under very restrictive rules and often with gear and limited head striking, would fair better than someone training full power resistance five days a week and competing, full contact bar groin and eye strikes regularly? It not only defies logic but illustrates how willing these types are to fabricate a reality that soots their world view... mainly that one can become not only comfortable and quite dangerous but a real master of self defense without ever placing themselves in a situation where they need to defend themselves.

Face off in a cage against someone with 5+ years BJJ and 5+ years competitive kick boxing who sacrificed much joy and pleasure to prepare to fight you... you will need to defend yourself.

As for fighting for your life... I've learned one thing down here in Puerto Rico (google the homicide rate here).... you're a fool for fighting in civilian life. Forget legal issues. Mother ****ers will find you when you're not expecting it and beat you to a pulp with a group of friends IF YOU'RE LUCKY. Four guys shot and killed in my neighborhood last weekend alone.


BT(Novell) and the others in his crew i have ALOT of respect for simply because of the content of what they practice(because i used to be a bagua player so i feel kinship in that respect) PLus in my correspondance with Novell on my own questions and concerns were met with respect and intelligence and rationality. What i dont condone or support are these rooster crowing challenges that go on and certain posters HERE who keep the diatribe going.

Awesome that you find kingship with your kung fu brother. The issue here is that Novell and his crew have had a lot to say about everything from local NYC Kung Fu to internals guys near D.C. to MMA in general. Sure, everyone is entitled to an opinion but this is martial arts. Talk is cheap. And frankly I'm surprised by the number of people that have labeled Novell some defacto authority on internal.... yes they have done a lot of research and can toss their version of Ba Gua's history into the forum with everyone elses. Doesn't mean their Ba Gua is good. You want to get respect for your skill, regardless of the method, you go out and compare fairly, with similar sized practioners of note.

Why do you think I train so hard? Why I go out to fight?

I earned a black belt as a kid and was dominate in karate tournaments, but so what? How do I compare with the standard today? I don't have to fight challenge matches. I go sign up for a local MMA tournament knowing I'll be facing wrestlers, Thai Boxers and BJJ who are serious and committed. The environment is its own quality control.

Not to say that there is not a place for challenges. People who have devoted their lives to making their body a weapon don't view them as "rooster crowing matches." They're a serious endeavor with honor and health at stake.

[1bad65]

Well said Ray.

[1bad65]

Yes that's right ole 1bad65 is too good for that sort of thing, its beneath him to make challenges to others.:rolleyes:

**** straight. Find an example where I have.


Where is it that you train again? Does your teacher(s) promote your kind of attitude at your gym/dojo? Have they looked at your posts?

I have no clue what they do outside the gym. And they could care less what I do outside of it as well. The attitude at my gym (and I dare say at most all MMA/BJJ gyms) is STFU unless you get on the mat and back it up.


Again, please answer the questions in Posts #128 and 129.

[1bad65]

Correct me if ANY of this is incorrect.

Despite mouthing off constantly, BT has zero MMA fights. He competed in some San Shou tourny in NYC, but it was promoted by his own teacher and no other NYC fighters or schools were in attendance.

Despite alot of chest-thumping, BT never fought Nick Thompson and has not agreed to fight Bill Duff either.

Correct?

[lkfmdc]

Dear lord :rolleyes:

The one thing that really I don't get from some of you, is how you talk with certainty about something you have no idea about. No need to dig up something that is going on 8 years old, but man, that San Shou event was SHADY.... it was so SHADY I know it cost that promoter a lot of students. IT was a big disservice to san shou in the country and a smack in the face to the real san shou people

[The Willow Sword]

On what grounds can you assume that a Kung Fu player working mostly forms and push hands, sparring under very restrictive rules and often with gear and limited head striking, would fair better than someone training full power resistance five days a week and competing, full contact bar groin and eye strikes regularly?

I never made any claims like these, Ray. Im not an idiot as 1bad would suggest, i know the reality of certain aspects of any martial training where you are not training for the fight. it was one of the pet peeves i had with the school i was with for years, my particular one to be specific. i dont know how any of the other affiliated schools trained. dont misunderestimate my comments as that of a "typical kung fu practitoner who has only been through the basics with no "power" training.

Face off in a cage against someone with 5+ years BJJ and 5+ years competitive kick boxing who sacrificed much joy and pleasure to prepare to fight you... you will need to defend yourself.

Why would i want to do that? why would i want to put myself through that kind of abuse? why would i even care to waste my energy? that is not who i am. Now confront me on the street where there are no rules or regs and i can utilize everything i know to put you in the hospital and lets see who comes out on top. im not bragging here,nor am i making any outlandish claims. what i AM saying is that in the Life/death situation its going to be a hell of alot different than 1. some comeptition where they allow you to pummel each other without killing each other or 2. some rooster pea**** fight at the school yard.

As for fighting for your life... I've learned one thing down here in Puerto Rico (google the homicide rate here).... you're a fool for fighting in civilian life. Forget legal issues. Mother ****ers will find you when you're not expecting it and beat you to a pulp with a group of friends IF YOU'RE LUCKY. Four guys shot and killed in my neighborhood last weekend alone

okay then so if you know what it means to fight for your life then you know the outcomes are seldom anything like the competition or the ring or the schoolyard brawl. Some of you guys forget that these martial systems were developed to save your life and to also train soldiers how to quickly kill an enemy. i dont write this with any sort of grandious pedestal placing of any martial system as "better" than the other or that "this one sucks compared to that". Here it is about taking what you have learned and saving it to save your life should you EVER be put in that situation (and i was once). Will 5 yrs of BJJ and Kick boxing save your life against 4 guys with weapons? Will Bagua? Will Karate? Will Anything? Maybe, Who knows. I dont, do you?

The attitudes that set me off just as the ones that set you off ,Ray, are the ones from Both sides of the fence who bicker and yell at each other when they should be respecting each other and learning to quell their ego and meet in a manner of respect to one another. Seems like the vids i have watched of Novell,despite his ego is that he is learing to cross over into the grappling realm so he can better deal with his fight. have you even seen the vids of him cross training in grappling? He is wanting to learn just like any other person. He is not perfect he has made his comments just as everyone else has made theirs. I dont know if YOU see this from Novell but I SEE integrity and enough Humility to go out there and learn from the other systems.
All Martial Systems have their ways of explaining how thier system is effective and how it works, and they all have to be consistent and not necessarily kow tow to the others systems and their "effectiveness" other wise they make themselves look weak and no-one wants to look like that. its bad business for one and makes everyone else feel like you are not confident in what you do.

Not to say that there is not a place for challenges. People who have devoted their lives to making their body a weapon don't view them as "rooster crowing matches." They're a serious endeavor with honor and health at stake.

A weapon is pretty useless if it is not used to its fullest extent. Who goes out there and only half uses a knife? or a Gun? im sure there are people who do and they get killed. If you are going to truly train your body to be a weapon and be a warrior then you need to make use of it how it was intended, like the Samurai, like any of our Soldiers out there in the field. Competitions, challenge matches, the UFC, all of these endeavors are, in my opinion only designed to inflate the ego, harass other people, and promote silly violence against one another just for the SOUL PURPOSE OF ENTERTAINMENT. That's all it is. But it is definately not like the gladiator events of Rome, which is taking the Entertainment to its extreme and past any set of morals and values. Well i am not entertained. I respect a fighter's ability to fight, i respect you Ray.

When i first started to learn martial arts i wanted to learn how to save my life if i ever got into a situation that warranted me saving my life or the life of another. I was a runt in grade school and i got my ass kicked alot, not to mention the abuse i was getting at home. I liked Kung fu movies and had my imaginations run wild but i still wanted to learn how to defend my life and defend it well. I respect life and i dont like to see it being frivolously toyed with. Over the years i learned alot of subterfuge and JUNK. Out of all that i was able to learn a few key things to really defend myself. Its all i need and i dont need anything else. i havent mastered ANYTHING,i am still and will always be a student. I like exhibitions and friendly crossing of hands in order to learn and be a part of a community. But i like serious training, and training that prepares you to deal with life/death. its not grandious or spectacular or some boasting of anything. its simple.
Im sure the comments will be many and the keyboard boxing will be good. I havent fully explained myself or my values and i dont need to. I stand by my views and morals and my opinions always change, its the beauty of having them that they can be changed.

Peace,TWS

[lkfmdc]

again....... dear lord :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

Correct me if ANY of this is incorrect.

Despite mouthing off constantly, BT has zero MMA fights. He competed in some San Shou tourny in NYC, but it was promoted by his own teacher and no other NYC fighters or schools were in attendance.

Correct?

so, I guess before there were MMA competitions, there were never any real fighters? Not fer nuthin, but sometimes I cannot believe what comes out of people's heads.
I am not talking about BT, or anyone. What I am talking about is how there is this trend in thinking that if someone hasn't competed in a competition that is only years old, it completely negates any possibility of that person being any type of fighter. Period.
So, let's forget about everyone and everything that has come before MMA events. Let's forget about guys who fight in the street, in bars, behind bars,in the military, in Law Enforcement, such as court officers, etc. Let's also forget all the Chan Tai-San's, Chan Bonds,and other guys who fought in "Non-Sanctioned events"

Sure, MMA is a great litmus test, and it is available in various forms, from trying out for UFC, to underground smokers, but let's realize that it is only one, very new young sport, and fighters -real fighters,have been around for a very long time.

[1bad65]

so, I guess before there were MMA competitions, there were never any real fighters?

Where did I say that?

Are you related to Fox by chance?

I said he competed in a San Shou tourny. To me, San Shou is a combative sport like boxing, kickboxing, and MMA. I just pointed out that his teacher just happened to be the promoter for that tourny. And that no other NYC schools or fighters were represented. Was any of that incorrect?

[1bad65]

[ Now confront me on the street where there are no rules or regs and i can utilize everything i know to put you in the hospital and lets see who comes out on top.

Oh boy. :rolleyes:

No wonder you get along with a JFS-type like BT.


You still have not answered my questions.

[Ray Pina]

[B]
Why would i want to do that? why would i want to put myself through that kind of abuse? why would i even care to waste my energy? that is not who i am. Now confront me on the street where there are no rules or regs and i can utilize everything i know to put you in the hospital and lets see who comes out on top. im not bragging here,nor am i making any outlandish claims.

You may be compelled to do the former to substantiate the later.

Then there is the matter of relativity. You may be able to hospitalize a drunk at the local watering hole but what about a college athlete or bouncer who might just happen to be passing through? What if you picked a fight with one of the growing number of MMAist in this world? They may be more familiar with the subject of violence then you.

I don't care for this style vs that style debates. I don't view MMA as a style per se (though it is becoming that) but rather a venue where such disputes can be settled. The rules protect everyone equally.


[B]A weapon is pretty useless if it is not used to its fullest extent. Who goes out there and only half uses a knife? or a Gun? im sure there are people who do and they get killed. If you are going to truly train your body to be a weapon and be a warrior then you need to make use of it how it was intended, like the Samurai, like any of our Soldiers out there in the field. Competitions, challenge matches, the UFC, all of these endeavors are, in my opinion only designed to inflate the ego, harass other people, and promote silly violence against one another just for the SOUL PURPOSE OF ENTERTAINMENT.

First, I don't want to come off as some muscle head who insists one has to compete to hone their skills. That just isn't true. But you do have to train realisticly, you do have to fight. Even if its with your classmates.

At the same time I have mixed opinions about belts and titles and all that but for argument's sake, let's say we all strive to be at the top, say black belt level. At the highest level men are training to jam clinches and throw attempts, they're training against an entire array of striking, including new Superman punching and flying knees... they're training to stop and employ ground and pound and so many varieties of submissions. It's a huge work load. And you'll gas out every time you train and you''ll get injured even though you take every precaution to train safely.

It's a tough thing to face, to look at how you're training compared to men who are training like that. I'm tempted to say its tough to make the time and to keep the determination to stay committed but it's not. If you want to compete at that level ... and I'm not just talking competition in a cage or a ring. I'm talking about hitting it off somewhere with a guy who's been fighting San Da competitively or MMA and saying, awesome, why not stop by the gym and we can train. polite. friendly. But you know after two hours of training each of your level will be revealed.

I make the same argument against BJJ friends who complain about eating an accidental elbow here and there. Man, I'm not even trying to hit you. a) It's your responsibility to defend yourself, and B) toughen up. This is martial arts.

[TenTigers]

Where did I say that?

Are you related to Fox by chance?

I said he competed in a San Shou tourny. To me, San Shou is a combative sport like boxing, kickboxing, and MMA. I just pointed out that his teacher just happened to be the promoter for that tourny. And that no other NYC schools or fighters were represented. Was any of that incorrect?

yeah, I was trying to avoid that, I was not speaking on this specific issue, but the trend of thinking on the whole, as I said. (or tried to say.)

[TenTigers]

hey Willow Sword,
what about a MMA guy who gets in the street and is fighting for his life?
What then? What then? huh? What then?:p

[TenTigers]

You may be compelled to do the former to substantiate the later.




First, I don't want to come off as some muscle head who insists one has to compete to hone their skills. That just isn't true. But you do have to train realisticly, you do have to fight. Even if its with your classmates.

-well said, Ray.

And you'll gas out every time you train and you''ll get injured even though you take every precaution to train safely.

-I usually get an injury every time I roll with my training brothers and teacher. And we try to be as safe as possible. But when you're in your fifties, it takes its toll. It takes me a few days to recover.

I.

That's all I have to say, but I couldn't post with a small amount of wrds-so this is filler.

[1bad65]

what about a MMA guy who gets in the street and is fighting for his life?

That's actually a pretty good question to ask the 'too deadly' crowd.

[sanjuro_ronin]

hey Willow Sword,
what about a MMA guy who gets in the street and is fighting for his life?
What then? What then? huh? What then?:p

He'll fight just as no-rules as anyone else, PLUS, he actually knows how to fight.

[Lucas]

Thats an easy answer.

Hes going to do the best he can, and hes going to fall back on his training.

Now as to his particular mix of MMA, this will determine what his training he is falling back on will produce as far as actions.

we repeat things a million times so when the proverbial **** hits the fan, we dont have to think to much.

[MasterKiller]

-I usually get an injury every time I roll with my training brothers and teacher. And we try to be as safe as possible. But when you're in your fifties, it takes its toll. It takes me a few days to recover.



Being hurt and being injured aren't the same things. I'm hurt all the time. I've only had a few injuries over the last 3 years or so (dislocated rib, torn meniscus, dislocated ankle).

[TenTigers]

I guess I should have said, boo-boo.;)

[cjurakpt]

hey Willow Sword,
what about a MMA guy who gets in the street and is fighting for his life?
What then? What then? huh? What then?:p


That's actually a pretty good question to ask the 'too deadly' crowd.


He'll fight just as no-rules as anyone else, PLUS, he actually knows how to fight.

yeah, somehow I don't think he's going to have too much trouble making the transition - I mean, as opposed to the large number of semi-pacifist kung-fu guys out there (e.g. - "I don't want to fight in general, but will kill you if I have to" - bit of a polarization there, no?), it seems people go into MMA largely because they want to fight, fight frequently, and with as limited rules as possible;

more importantly, it's not the content, it's the context: a guy with superior position can turn his punch to the face into a finger jab to the throat / eye pretty easily; and the guy who is going to have superior position is the guy who has trained against people who are trying their hardest to keep him from getting that position; now, while this could might be done in a contemporary kung fu school, it is most certainly done in an MMA one;

don't confuse forrest for trees: MMA arose out of a desire to pressure test what works; that's why the combat format is as liberal as possible - who will do better? the guy who routinely takes it to 90% or the guy who theoretically goes to 100%?

and I'm gonna say this again - I am not a kung-fu hater - in fact, I think that MMA is the best thing to happen to TCMA in a long time, because it's basically the wind blowing - will the house TCMA has built for itself withstand it or not?

[The Willow Sword]

You still have not answered my questions.

And i am not going to, because it is not my place to answer them. Why do you seek an answer from me? Ask Novell. He is the one you should be asking these questions to. He is easy to get in contact with.

Originally Posted by TenTigers
hey Willow Sword,
what about a MMA guy who gets in the street and is fighting for his life?
What then? What then? huh? What then?

He will prevail or he wont.

That's actually a pretty good question to ask the 'too deadly' crowd.

Never said or implied that i was "too deadly". you can copy/paste comments of mine(as you did in your last post to me) without adding the rest and spin things like you usually do 1bad but it doesnt work with me,and neither does it work with anyone else here. try again.


Peace,TWS

[TenTigers]

TWS,
my post to you was said in jest, but the question itself is a serious one.

Chris, you are correct, and I believe most (or am I being waaaay too liberal in my thinking?) TCMA teachers, who are at all concerned with teaching the best Martial Art that they can and giving their students the best they can in terms of self-defense, will, if they haven't already, embrace the MMA concept.

Already we see TCMA schools bringing in Chinese throwing and grappling arts into their curriculum. Many have also examined the Thai arts and have brought in more tools from there as well. (Chinese Wrestlers,collegiate wrestlers, BJJ guys, NHB fighters,Muay Thai exponents,etc, have been guest instructors at my school for decades)

With the proper mindset and open-minded attitude,it is not polluting your art.
It is evolving. When you examine TCMA, many are amalgamations of other arts and methodologies anyway.

As I have always said, "Tools is Tools."

[Ray Pina]

This has turned into a good discussion. Wish we could be having it over some dim sum in Chinatown (momentarily home sick as I get ready to go surfing AGAIN.)

[TenTigers]

I don't know what part of PR you're in Ray, but when I went down to Aguada, (which is like Yaphank) it was impossible to find decent Chinese food, let alone dim-sum. Maybe a spring roll, or shrimp toast, at best. Perhaps if you went to San Juan, you might find one.

[1bad65]

And i am not going to, because it is not my place to answer them.

There's a real shocker. :rolleyes:

You know if did it would show your little buddy's only experience is in a VERY shady tournament ran by his own teacher.

[cjurakpt]

TWS,
my post to you was said in jest, but the question itself is a serious one.

Chris, you are correct, and I believe most (or am I being waaaay too liberal in my thinking?) TCMA teachers, who are at all concerned with teaching the best Martial Art that they can and giving their students the best they can in terms of self-defense, will, if they haven't already, embrace the MMA concept.

Already we see TCMA schools bringing in Chinese throwing and grappling arts into their curriculum. Many have also examined the Thai arts and have brought in more tools from there as well. (Chinese Wrestlers,collegiate wrestlers, BJJ guys, NHB fighters,Muay Thai exponents,etc, have been guest instructors at my school for decades)

With the proper mindset and open-minded attitude,it is not polluting your art.
It is evolving. When you examine TCMA, many are amalgamations of other arts and methodologies anyway.

As I have always said, "Tools is Tools."

I would agree, to some extent; I think it depends a lot on a given community - for example, NYC / LI tends to be a pretty closed loop, so you will have concepts disseminate quickly - that is, if the move is towards utility, if you don't get on that bus, you'll miss the...well, whatever you will miss by not being on the bus; to wit, it's now Tiger Shulman's MMA, in case you've not noticed the new signs - I can't imagine that you would see that sort of shift in a successful regional chain somewhere in the mid-west, because therre is no pressure to do so; which is why I think that fly-over-country is fertile ground for McGwoons and qi-balls...

furthermore, if one is connected to the "old school" guys like CTS, or your teachers of late, then it's in a way easier to make changes towards increasing functionality because the link to the past actually substantiates it;

again, it's why I think MMA has been a boon to TCMA, because it forces that community to dig deep and drop the BS - you want to talk about how great TCMA is for fighting? fine - deal with peeps who are motivated to push themselves and their skills to the limit as an intrinsic aspect of their practice; don't duck behind "we are too deadly for the ring", because that context has changed drastically from the last 20 years - to wit - their would be almost nothing that a good CLF fighter would have to "give up" in terms of his stand-up "game" by entering an MMA competition; one could probably say the same about Hung, WC and other similar styles; ditto for bagua and hsing yi and even taiji, if trained "correctly"(although the latter has become so rarified that adapting it to the ring might make it almost into something else, but that's besides the point)

[The Willow Sword]

I also do not like the "too deadly for tournaments" diatribe. I had to deal with that talk in the realm of SD, which i thought was hoaky and only a marketing ploy to get people in the door. HOWEVER, i think that when some of us make statements that are taken out of context with regards to the "too deadly" thing,what we are saying or what I personally am saying is that i am not going to follow any rules other than there are no rules and i am not going to have any illusions about what i am capable of and what i am not capable of. All i know is that if i am confronted out there in the real world with the kind of violence i see and have experienced in my life(and i am noone special) i will be in "defend my life" mode. which means i wont be thinking about legalities or anything else other than protecting my right to live. which means i am going to do everything i can to take you out of this world. its like the old saying(s), you may take me down or you may kill me, but i am going to make you suffer for it its not a bragging or boasting thing. its simple survival. I hope it never comes to that ever, for anyone, for myself.

Peace,TWS

[TenTigers]

I think this is where the high hands on, contact level that MMA is known for really shines. You need to take into account the adrenal stress response, or adreneline dump, as some refer to it. The fight of flight reaction also results in the fight or freeze reaction, and I believe MMA training better prepares the student for this.
Depending on yuor level of contact and pressure testing is will determine your outcome, and most TCMA schools rarely play at this level.

[TenTigers]

I'm a big fan of Tiger Shullman's. They are very much on top of things. They have been doing MMA for years. It is not a sudden change in their curriculum, but it is a sudden change in their signs.
I like the way they set up their curriculum in a way. They "sell" you a certain amount of hours, and every time you go, you swipe your card. Classes are divided up into:
Core-pad drills, punching and kicking combos, self-defense.
Kickboxing-drills, and sparring
Grappling-submission grappling
so it's basically kickboxing and submission grappling. No forms, at least in underbelts. I think Black Belts do forms.
You need a specific amount of hours in each catagory to be promoted.
On one hand, you may argue that it is giving out rank for attendance, but if yu really look at it, if a student is spending a certain amount of hours training, then the skill level advances. Pretty simple. But you eat up alot of hours, and it gets expensive if you want more days grappling or whatever.
I don't have that kind of computer set up in my school, and my curriculum is pretty involved; drills, padwork, sparring, forms, weapons,Lion Dance, grappling, etc.
But I think it it bears looking into.

[cjurakpt]

I think this is where the high hands on, contact level that MMA is known for really shines. You need to take into account the adrenal stress response, or adreneline dump, as some refer to it. The fight of flight reaction also results in the fight or freeze reaction, and I believe MMA training better prepares the student for this.
Depending on yuor level of contact and pressure testing is will determine your outcome, and most TCMA schools rarely play at this level.

bingo - this basically reconciles the entire TCMA vs. MMA debate, and I still don't get what the argument against it is - the only "drawback" is that it would expose the generally poor level of skill of some instructors, and possibly do away with a lot of the embroidery (which, IMHO, you can still have / keep - I mean it is an "art" and there's nothing wrong with an artistic performance of a form with flowery stuff - just don't confuse the two is all); and we all know that pressure testing was something that TCMA had built into it back in the "old" days, vis a vis the harshness of the training, not to mention every day life in CHina for most people, and the degree with which these guys did actually have to "use it";

[cjurakpt]

I'm a big fan of Tiger Shullman's. They are very much on top of things. They have been doing MMA for years. It is not a sudden change in their curriculum, but it is a sudden change in their signs.
I like the way they set up their curriculum in a way. They "sell" you a certain amount of hours, and every time you go, you swipe your card. Classes are divided up into:
Core-pad drills, punching and kicking combos, self-defense.
Kickboxing-drills, and sparring
Grappling-submission grappling
so it's basically kickboxing and submission grappling. No forms, at least in underbelts. I think Black Belts do forms.
You need a specific amount of hours in each catagory to be promoted.
On one hand, you may argue that it is giving out rank for attendance, but if yu really look at it, if a student is spending a certain amount of hours training, then the skill level advances. Pretty simple. But you eat up alot of hours, and it gets expensive if you want more days grappling or whatever.
I don't have that kind of computer set up in my school, and my curriculum is pretty involved; drills, padwork, sparring, forms, weapons,Lion Dance, grappling, etc.
But I think it it bears looking into.
in general, from what I can tell (and certainly there are exceptions), the quality control of curriculum / instructor's skill levels are generally above average to high - and they certainly project a great deal of professionalism; on the other hand, I have heard some stories about the hard-sell tactics and what sounded like some less then forthright bait-and-switch type stuff; but yeah, they certainly saw the writing on the wall and got in line with it - but then again, they were originally kyokoshin, which some people do forget - so hard-core is not something that is lacking in their roots...
as for giving out rank for attendence - it's a question of the hours giving you the rank or making you eligible to test - my understanding is that they are the latter (I hear their tests aren't cake walks for advanced ranking...)

[The Willow Sword]

He replied and asked me to post this for him. So i am doing it verbatim as he wrote it to me. I have no opinion on any of it i am just being the messenger relaying a message. I am not affiliated with his school at all,but i have a respect for him and his crew. Here it is: From The Black Taoist,


Greetings,

(if you like, post this for me in that KFM forum)

I personally find the whole thread amusing. People are going to be people and everyone going to have their opinions on things. I am in a point in my life I don’t care what these kinds of people think, not going to change or stop anything I’m doing in life. I guess they must like me , or why will they keep worry what little old BT is doing next, What funny I don't even be on the net much these days , but people still keep talking about about me and checking out my youtube page, yet they claim they don't like me....to funny .

As for this Guy Ray, well for starts he doesn’t know me, to past judgment on me in any approach. Ray as well as other doesn’t know who I fought or the Sh1t I done in my life. And to be honest it truly don’t matter to me what he thinks I can do or can’t do in a fight . All that matters is I know what I can do in combat and if he or anyone want to truly know they are more then welcome to find out . They come with respect, I will return the respect.

I train every sat & sunday sparring with mma fighters and BJJ players at 1950 3rd ave /107th st 3rd flr from around 11am to 2pm So no need for al the big talk tell Ray or whoever just to show up they like to spar against me, I never had a problem sparring against people , no matter what they claim to do. So no need to talk about what you think you can do just show up and we play. like I said you come with with respect, you get respect in return.

Now I never made any claims to be any kind of expert so I don’t know where Ray come off with staying I talking like I’m the badest martial artist to walk the earth. , and I only beat up on my students. I believe its called working out, teaching, practicing. After all I don’t practice or teach martial arts to fight in mma competition or sport fighting. People that come to learn from me are people that are from the streets as well in to the film, music and hip –hop world. These kind of individuals are learning to be effective for street self defense, they are not training for some sport competition.

What I find funny is people like Ray think you need to enter a public mma competition to prove that one is a good fighter to everyone .that’s bullsh1t and only shows his level of understanding of combat. I had my share of street fights in Harlem. I also was homeless in the 90’s I fought a few times in a few underground no hold bouts in N.Y, Chinatown and won all my fights. The fights at theses kind of bouts make mma fights today look like kids play. Ray don’t know me or do he know what the Fuk he talking about! Tell Ray to ask his Sifu, if anyone saw how I use to get down in fighting his sifu is one of them. His teacher saw me fight a few times, one reason why he saves Ray's ass from a BT ass kicking years ago Ray call him self challenging me to fight. If I never had any respect for Ray Sifu as his claim, I would have a long time ago put my foot up Ray ass. In my opinion I think ray an ok person, but he just got a big mouth at times mostly on the internet, because the few times I met him face to face he was quiet as a lamb!

Ok now as for this Nick Thompson bullSh1t I already set the record straight. For starts I pointed out in my interview with brother Percy of Fighthype.com I never met or had conversations with this Nick Thompson or have I had any e-mail contact with this man. So how the hell am I ducking the man if I never had any kind of contact with him on any level? All I keep hearing is this he said; she said high school internet bullsh1. Like I said people on the internet are comical.

First time I hear about this Nick Thompson individual was from Maoshan where he told me this Nick put out a challenge to the Dipset coach of Iron ring manger , which he posted on a MMA forum I don't even go too . Any one that been following this Nick Thompson hype know he first put out a challenge to fight Maoshan for a so called $40.000 which he claim to have.
Then when Nick saw Maoshan was real about getting that money in a no holds bar fight (street style No ring or rules) the great MMA Nick Thompson Change sh1t quick, wanted Maoshan to come up with $40.000. Now come on brother who the FUK in the hood got $40.000 laying around. Right there I knew Nick was on some bullsh1t in my opinion.

But did not matter to me one way or the other, because they beef truly had nothing to do with me. But for so reason people wanted to put me in the MIX of they beef. Anyway here a link to Maoshan video on YouTube where you can easy see he calling Nick out to fight. A CHALLENGE NICK OFFERED FIRST! This was a video response to answer the Challenge of Nick Thompson which he put to my Maoshan. So you tell me who ducking who... Like I said people on the internet are hilarious

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qejc1Vc05BQ

You go to this link you see the fight hype interview Maoshan did because of the outright lies being told by Thompson on fighthype.com.

http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content3016.html


You can also see my own interview which was basically my rebuttal to an interview by Nick Thompson. Which I clearly set the record straight about me and this Nick Thompson situation. I ducking Nick Thompsons people need to wake up and open they eyes to the real reality of the situation. From the day my mother gave me life in this world I never ducked any one.

I always been a stand up guy from day one. Some people may don’t like me or my viewpoints about martial arts, but I never in my D@mn life ran from any man!

http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content3006.html?PHPSESSID=108f7233d2d8c172dae93cb fa1a13c4f

Here a link to an interview I did as well, where I also set the record straight about this Nick Thompson situation. Me ducking a cat get real…lol

http://media.putfile.com/Exclusive-Blacktaoist-Interview

I'm a brother of few words when it comes down to real fighting. I’m a brother that likes to joke around in life, which some of you may have seen on the iron ring show. I am a martial art comedian, and as usual, I don't color up the situation, I give it like it is!I love to joke on brothers and Sh1t. But when it comes to martial arts I don’t Fuk around. So This Nick guy can sleep all he want, truly don’t matter to me.

I feel if this Nick truly wanted to fight he would not be doing all this mouth boxing, real fighters & martial artist no matter what the race Man up and handle their business like real men! All this internet warrior Sh1t is for punks in my opinion. I done said this before, I don't have a problem with this Nick Thompson, but for whatever his reasons he and others on the net
seems to want to put me in the mix of his fight hype, Fine no problem right now thanks to BET iron ring show the whole world no where to find me I'm still live in Harlem, So Nick want to truly get it popping with a brother from Harlem he more then welcome. I guess this is what happens when you get famous! You either get overzealous fans or stalkers.

As for the Sanda nothing was fix, People that say that is just on some hate bullsh1t. The chinese Sanda fighter I fought was real and skilled as they come. I just happen to beat him , because back then I use to fight a lot in UG fights , so fighting was nothing new to me, no matter what people want to call it, karate, kung fu . mma , judo , bjj. in the end of the day fighting is fighting!

I guess I went from street legend, to website cult fan favorite to reality tv star! In Corporate America - that means I went from Manager, to Vice President to President...lol

Peace
BT

[Ray Pina]

People are going to be people and everyone going to have their opinions on things. I am in a point in my life I don’t care what these kinds of people think, not going to change or stop anything I’m doing in life. I guess they must like me , or why will they keep worry what little old BT is doing next, What funny I don't even be on the net much these days , but people still keep talking about about me and checking out my youtube page, yet they claim they don't like me....to funny. [/B]

While I think you are employing selective memory about how you have treated myself and others over the years, people are going to formulate opinions when you post footage of yourself. After years of self promotion, only now are people asking.... where is the fighting footage?

I think it's a fair question considering you have posted everything from park training to your drawings online. Why not a handful of these many fights you have had?


As for this Guy Ray, well for starts he doesn’t know me, to past judgment on me in any approach. Ray as well as other doesn’t know who I fought or the Sh1t I done in my life. And to be honest it truly don’t matter to me what he thinks I can do or can’t do in a fight . All that matters is I know what I can do in combat and if he or anyone want to truly know they are more then welcome to find out . They come with respect, I will return the respect. [/B]

Before I train a system I find out who is the best in my area. That's why I took the train an hour into NYC to learn BJJ from Master Renzo Gracie. Likewise, when I wanted to learn internal I asked around. I heard about you.... and I heard about what happened with you and Master Bond Chan in the park in Chinatown. That's why I traveled two hours to train with Master Chan and two hours to come home.... but again: How does a young man of your size even consider asking an old Chinese man of Master Chan's size to play? Again, you are very quick to invite me, who fights at 169lbs to play, but why not a Bill Duff or someone at least topping 220lbs?

I'm tempted to come train with you, but then I think, "I don't trust this self promoter," and "I have plenty! of high-quality, honorable men to train with.






Now I never made any claims to be any kind of expert so I don’t know where Ray come off with staying I talking like I’m the badest martial artist to walk the earth. , and I only beat up on my students. I believe its called working out, teaching, practicing. After all I don’t practice or teach martial arts to fight in mma competition or sport fighting. People that come to learn from me are people that are from the streets as well in to the film, music and hip –hop world. These kind of individuals are learning to be effective for street self defense, they are not training for some sport competition.[/B]

You have criticized Master Bond Chan's technique even though others told me he beat your arm numb in the park (I've bit my tongue on this for years). You've criticized my fights in the past. I've read you criticizing that Korean Ba Gua master in D.C. and couldn't tell you how many times you've called Kung Fu players out online for their poor training, for "not keeping it real."

Now every teacher works out with their students.... they all don't post footage of them throwing around non-resisting students to promote themselves. That's called raising yourself up while pushing others down.

Maybe I know you better than you think. Maybe you're trying to be the polite statesman these days because you have gained some notoriety for yourself and the last thing you want to do is fight a trained man of your size in a sanctioned event.

I don't expect you to fight amateur now because you probably feel you're above it. And we both know you aint stepping into a pro MMA event. NO WAY!!!!!!

But your students should consider entering one of the local MMA events in your area. They're almost monthly. I'll be up to fight this fall. If your street/hip hop crew truly finds the skill level to be low in that venue, it's a great day of light training then and if you bring some folks you can pocket a few hundred dollars in ticket sales.



What I find funny is people like Ray think you need to enter a public mma competition to prove that one is a good fighter to everyone .that’s bullsh1t and only shows his level of understanding of combat. I had my share of street fights in Harlem. I also was homeless in the 90’s I fought a few times in a few underground no hold bouts in N.Y, Chinatown and won all my fights. The fights at theses kind of bouts make mma fights today look like kids play. Ray don’t know me or do he know what the Fuk he talking about! Tell Ray to ask his Sifu, if anyone saw how I use to get down in fighting his sifu is one of them. His teacher saw me fight a few times, one reason why he saves Ray's ass from a BT ass kicking years ago Ray call him self challenging me to fight. If I never had any respect for Ray Sifu as his claim, I would have a long time ago put my foot up Ray ass. In my opinion I think ray an ok person, but he just got a big mouth at times mostly on the internet, because the few times I met him face to face he was quiet as a lamb![/B]

I fight, in any number of venues or formats, to test myself. I train, improve, test.

I wanted to fight you years ago after our first dispute, when we didn't know each other. We disagreed about something silly and you became very aggressive. I admit, when I found out how big you were I was a little nervous, but I would have fought you but my master forbid it. My master is a good man.

Now my friend... I have been training so ****ing hard I'm like a chained pit bull that has been poked and proded. Don't **** with me!

Do your thing. Sell your videos but watch your mouth. There are fighters on this site now, not like the old days. We can see through the bull****.

When you say you're not ducking Thompson or Duff... that's fine. Who have you gone out to fight for yourself? Aren't you curious to see if your Ba Gua can handle Chuck Lidell's fade away counter striking? You should.... you're bigger than him and I bet you can't? Can you handle a 250lbs olympic Judoka? A 240lbs golden glove boxer?

Your socio-economic status, your street life, means nothing. I saw a big homeless guy get ***** slapped at the beach the other day. I saw BJ Penn, who's family are rich business people in Hawaii, kick much ass.

It comes down to the individual. And somehow as a martial artist you have avoided any noteworthy fights you're entire career.

Don't blame me. I'm following your advice and keeping it real.

[Ray Pina]

I knew this fight wasn't going to happen.

[The Willow Sword]

I would appreciate it very much if you could go back and edit the quote captions to say Originally posted by "BLACK TAOIST". this way there is not any confusion as to who wrote what. i do not want to be confused with someone who i am not.

Thankyou and Peace,TWS

[1bad65]

From The Black Taoist,

I also was homeless in the 90’s I fought a few times in a few underground no hold bouts in N.Y, Chinatown and won all my fights. The fights at theses kind of bouts make mma fights today look like kids play.

Oh boy, yet another 'Backwater Fighting Champion'!!!


After years of self promotion, only now are people asking.... where is the fighting footage?

I think it's a fair question considering you have posted everything from park training to your drawings online. Why not a handful of these many fights you have had?

Hmmmm..... Where is that footage at? :rolleyes:




And we both know you aint stepping into a pro MMA event. NO WAY!!!!!!

Quoted for truth, once again.

[Ray Pina]

Something about those "Chinatown matches."

I'm from there. I know the score. It's a little park in Chinatown were old men go to play dominos and do Taiji and some more fancy Wing Chun types go to prance around and dance. It's push hands at best. Otherwise there would be arrest, injuries, and certainly law suits.

It's nothing worth filming, certainly nothing worth bragging about. I went to check it out.... swear to God. I would have been embarrassed for myself fighting any of them men.

[1bad65]

Wow Ray, that sounds strikingly familiar to the Masonic Lodge where JFS said challenge matches happened in his area too. :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

I'm all for that kind of testing. I love martial arts, I always want to play. But don't disrespect guys who have devoted their life training to compete in MMA and paint them as below you. And don't try to come off as Kimbo Slice, a man I respect. But even him, during his street days, I said he's always fighting guys smaller then himself. And then he fought a similar-sized white guy and his crew couldn't have been more dishonorable, jumping in and saving him from a beating.

I saw his last MMA fight. I wasn't impressed but I know he's training hard. He has the heart. And I like him. I wish him the best.

But Novell? Seriously, he's talked so much **** for so long but if you look at the fact, on paper, he's as big a fraud as the rest of them. Trips to China visiting the tomb and parks wearing silly hats, drawing Chinese cartoons, Wu-Tang clan nut rider..... where's the ****ing fighting in all of this?

I wouldn't mind. To each their own. But then don't talk so much smack. It doesn't take courage to challenge guys half your size. It does take courage to enter the ring/cage.

[blacktaoist]

Ray don't have time to reply to all your comments . Because you already know what time it is. You can play big man all you want and pop all the **** you like on the net truly don't matter to me one way or the other. Nowyou have the address to where I train, its not a park. So you are more then welcome to come and spar you or anyone . Truly don't matter to me what you been doing or the people you sparring or events you fighting in! If you all what you claim to be just show up. Nothing more to be said! Bring with you whoever you like too, size don't matter!

I like to hit on a few things you said which is not true. And I have no problem meeting you and your Sifu face to face to prove what you posted is not true.

You wrote:


You have criticized Master Bond Chan's technique even though others told me he beat your arm numb in the park (I've bit my tongue on this for years). You've criticized my fights in the past.

Not true, never happen! All the times I hang out in China town in the 90s me and your teacher never spar, or cross hand , so that bull****. and like I said I have no problem meeting face to face with your sifu to prove what you posted is false. And when I get time I pan to visit your Sifu and video tape him , to prove you lie about this so called encounter.

As for your fights how can I have criticized all your fights when I only seen one of them years ago you posted., Which I was not impress true in deed., but to be honest I was never interested in stuff you posted. So why would I care what you doing in MMA bouts. I told you before truly don't matter to me what you are doing man. But what I'm doing seem to matter to you ..to funny.


I think it's a fair question considering you have posted everything from park training to your drawings online. Why not a handful of these many fights you have had?

The times I fought in UG bouts was doing a bad time in my life, where I was living on the streets man. (homeless) So back then doing them years I was fighting in these matchers to eat and pay for a place to rest my head man then sleeping on the streets. I had no money to video tape these kinds of matchers, and to be honest doing that time of my life I did care about filming my matchers . just not the kind of thing on a person mind when you fighting to eat money. You a new jack man , so stay in your place , becausde like I said you don't know about me, or do you know what the **** you are talking about.


I don't expect you to fight amateur now because you probably feel you're above it. And we both know you aint stepping into a pro MMA event. NO WAY!!!!!!

You right I don't plan to fight in any pro MMa event. I never made any claims I was going to do so. So I don't understand the point you trying to make. From day one I always told people I don't train martial arts for that kind of competition. Not my cup of tea . But I never have a problem mixing it up with individuals that practice mma & BJJ. MMA fighting. nothing new to me man , I have many firends that train and fight in underground mma competitions, That I workout with as well train. Don't believe me contact my boy Bruce Kivo of www. mma confidential.com . He host many underground fights in the N.Y.C. area as well train under and interview many of the Top mma fighters in the world today. Ask him about fake old BT and why you at it ask him why he learning BGZ from me.

Not everyone care for me to post they training on video on the net for all the world to see Ray. I work out with a lot of highly skilled mma players that fight in these kinds of mma competitions and are **** good at it. So You think what you , keeping sleeping thinking I only fight my students, truly don't matter to me what you think to be honest . But I show you some respect and responded to some of your comments,. Because believe me I got better things I can be doing with my free time then dealing with your net hype bull****.


I've read you criticizing that Korean Ba Gua master in D.C. and couldn't tell you how many times you've called Kung Fu players out online for their poor training, for "not keeping it real."

Ray you talking about **** that happen years ago Ray. Move on man . But I still stand by my opinion most kung is garbage because of individuals not training properly that just the plain truth. Just look around Ray kung fu kung is a joke in most people eye. I wonder why?? No need to guess you know why Ray no need to play dumb. I never call anyone out , I only invite cats to come out and play not my problem if people take it the wrong like you.


Again, you are very quick to invite me, who fights at 169lbs to play, but why not a Bill Duff or someone at least topping 220lbs?

Like I said you don't know me or the people I spar. You only know what I want you too see on the net , remember that Ray. like I said before I invite you as well anyone to come check a brother , don't matter to me what you do, the level of skill, or what size they are so what the problem.



Now my friend... I have been training so ****ing hard I'm like a chained pit bull that has been poked and proded. Don't **** with me!

Whatever Ray I'm so scare. My training address is posted in this forum so whats the problem pit bull...lol Believe it or not Ray I kind of like you because you can be real funny at times.


Do your thing. Sell your videos but watch your mouth. There are fighters on this site now, not like the old days. We can see through the bull****.

LOL...Well the Address is posed where I train whats no problem . Come show me I full of Bull as you claim. Like i said I show you respect so what up, come with who you want I not have a problem mixing it up withg you or anyone no matter the size. So are you going to keep talking or just man up and we have some fun...lol



It comes down to the individual. And somehow as a martial artist you have avoided any noteworthy fights you're entire career.

Ray you truly talking out your ass. Avoided what noteworthy fights..lol , man you killing me with your make believe fighthype reality. I have avoided no one never make calims of fighting anyone , I just a brother from Harlem that practice BaGuazhang , post a few clips of me working on with my students on youtube and haters like you make up all kinds of bull**** , because in the end you want to be like BT..lol

Anyway I got to run, got things to do in the real world Ray to do like make money..$$ I guess you going to truly hate when you see me on a Chinese martial art reality show sometime next year, well keep hating because you not stopping nothing.lol One thing I learn Ray in this life, is people like you are good to have as haters because thanks to you, and others like you I have notoriety. Think about it Ray with out people like you in the world there would be no BT. so thank you for all your support. I don't hate you Ray, that a job you good at. I got nothing but love for you brother.
Ray feel free to e-mail me . Like I said I don't be up here on the forums like that anymoe.
More training Ray,and less talking.

Peace
BT

[sanjuro_ronin]

I must say, this is an interesting thread, if pointless.

[Lucas]

No doubt.

KFMonline should start a reality show.

I would watch it, especially if we can get John Tekashi involved.

[Pork Chop]

Ok now as for this Nick Thompson bullSh1t I already set the record straight. For starts I pointed out in my interview with brother Percy of Fighthype.com I never met or had conversations with this Nick Thompson or have I had any e-mail contact with this man. So how the hell am I ducking the man if I never had any kind of contact with him on any level? All I keep hearing is this he said; she said high school internet bullsh1. Like I said people on the internet are comical.


And as I said, the issue wasn't with BT, but with maoshan.



First time I hear about this Nick Thompson individual was from Maoshan where he told me this Nick put out a challenge to the Dipset coach of Iron ring manger , which he posted on a MMA forum I don't even go too . Any one that been following this Nick Thompson hype know he first put out a challenge to fight Maoshan for a so called $40.000 which he claim to have.
Then when Nick saw Maoshan was real about getting that money in a no holds bar fight (street style No ring or rules) the great MMA Nick Thompson Change sh1t quick, wanted Maoshan to come up with $40.000. Now come on brother who the FUK in the hood got $40.000 laying around. Right there I knew Nick was on some bullsh1t in my opinion.

But did not matter to me one way or the other, because they beef truly had nothing to do with me. But for so reason people wanted to put me in the MIX of they beef. Anyway here a link to Maoshan video on YouTube where you can easy see he calling Nick out to fight. A CHALLENGE NICK OFFERED FIRST! This was a video response to answer the Challenge of Nick Thompson which he put to my Maoshan. So you tell me who ducking who... Like I said people on the internet are hilarious


and here's the actual email correspondence.....



Check this out man,

I come to you like a man, not some b!tch. I don't have mouth pieces running a Bunch of bullsh!t about you on the net. But fck the bullsh!t, you've got my full attention now. And I see I've got yours. Why'd you take the clips down now? You should have done that sh!t before you challenged me. But no differance, it's not about the ring or money and in particular any rules. You challenged Kung Fu, now it's Bloodsport."




Bloodsport? As in we are going to put glass on our knuckles before the fight?

In any case, listen guy, I fight for money. If you can't come up with they money that is fine but then I have no interest in talking to you any further.

However, I have several lesser known teammates who I am sure would be interested in fighting you just for publicity's sake. So why don't we do this? We have the fight on Madtown Throwdown. There is no commission so we can do no rules. You can feel free to use you killer tiger eye lock or whatever. You put up nothing but you and your corner's airfare. You get nothing to show but if and when you undoubtedly win, you receive a substantial win bonus. The amount can be agreed upon later and I will even agree to pay a portion of said amount. I look forward to your response.

Sincerely,

Nick "the !itch Goat" Thompson

P.S. - What does going "Daisy Duke" on my a$$ mean?


Of course, at the time everything was going down Nick was scheduled to fight Costa in Japan at a Sengoku event, which he did and won. Now he's eying a Showtime EliteXC belt at Welter. So even if he's not on the first flight to Syracuse to go fight Maoshan, he is doing a lot of real fighting for real money - more than Ben anyway.

But hey, as I said, it's not like Nick was the only one who called "BS" on the sh!t-talking by Maoshan:



What's funny is I sent the guy an Email saying I'd fight him and asked him if he was okay fighting a pathetic mma'er my size ("6'8", 290 lbs.) And I got an email back that simply said, "I don't want to fight you."

and that was it.




I sent numerous emails saying a fight could be set up in a true Vale Tudo event soon, where they would be able to use their techniques and skills.

No reply.
I normally respect that people have varying opinions on martila arts, everyone has different loyalties and teachers and we all are stubborn about our beliefs.

However, I never outright diss on anyone like he does.

To state how awesome kung fu is compared to what he makes out to be what we do as just pathetic chest thumping in a ring, is uncalled for.

Fact that I have never even been given a reply on the matter of the Vale Tudo match should be proof to anyone of these jokers.

If it means anything, the both of you have reached a seriously high level as comedians.
Enough so that UFC Match-maker Joe Silva and UFC Commentator Joe Rogan have spent hours watching your youtube videos and laughing.

FYI, when you say the things that I've quoted, especially:

As for your remarks to kung fu, you watch too many movies. Kung Fu is the art of survival. No MMAer would survive an encounter against the basic technique of a properly trained practitioner.
A lot of guys are going to take that as a challenge.
So acting like "woe is me, everyone's challenging us just coz I was on a TV show" is bullsh!t.
Anybody poppin off with that and then turning down opportunities to prove it locally and abroad is a joke.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, considering the tags on this thread, this seems very appropriate:

[1bad65]

You right I don't plan to fight in any pro MMa event.

Is that because you can't get licensed in the State of New York?

[Ray Pina]

All the times I hang out in China town in the 90s me and your teacher never spar, or cross hand , so that bull****. and like I said I have no problem meeting face to face with your sifu to prove what you posted is false. And when I get time I pan to visit your Sifu and video tape him , to prove you lie about this so called encounter.

1) I don't want to pretend that I know what happened. I only said what I was told by people I respect.

2) No need to have a face to face with Master David Bond Chan, he has nothing to do with these comments. However, threatening to visit a man who is 5'5" and around 65-67 years old is exactly my point, which I'll expand upon below.


Ray you talking about **** that happen years ago Ray. Move on man . But I still stand by my opinion most kung is garbage because of individuals not training properly that just the plain truth. Just look around Ray kung fu kung is a joke in most people eye. I wonder why?? No need to guess you know why Ray no need to play dumb. I never call anyone out , I only invite cats to come out and play not my problem if people take it the wrong like you.

OK. So at least you can recall what I'm talking about. And then you go on saying the rest of Kung Fu is garbage but what distinguishes you from them? Everyone is training the best way they see fit.... you haven't gone out to fight, why should they?

Please, I don't want to come off as a hater. I don't run with that crew. I'm all for light and dreams and I'm happy you're having success. You've put a lot of years into your training, seems like you've over come hard times without falling into jail or heavy drugs, etc. You should be commended for that.

What I can't commend you on is even considering challenging an old man in any shape or form. Even challenging me, I fight at 169lbs. I know a boxer across the street, a skinny little **** who talks **** sometimes and I tell him straight up, don't play around boy, you're not in my weight class. I'd just smother him, drag him down and beat him. What's the honor in that?

No, I face my fear of meeting a man of similar stature in an organized and sanctioned venue to compare. That's it. I'd love to match up with one of your students. I was thinking of getting a match this fall... it wouldn't be a problem. If you want, perhaps we can do an exhibition match in the same venue instead, but honestly, I feel I should be compensated for the differences. Maybe we make a light wager (one we can both agree on) but I get $20 extra for each 10lbs I give up. That seams fair to me.

Brother, I offer you much love, but surely you can see this is a case of glass houses and one not throwing stones. Because of the mini-celebrity status you have, you should be taking the opportunity to high light CMA. You should fancy step Bill Duff and throw him... your technique looks solid.

Why not fight MMA? Hey, it's a fight and anything can happen for sure. And people may talk if you lose but the feeling you get inside facing your fear is liberating. And it's not as bad as it looks.

[blacktaoist]

1) I don't want to pretend that I know what happened. I only said what I was told by people I respect.

Well you was told a lie.


2) No need to have a face to face with Master David Bond Chan, he has nothing to do with these comments. However, threatening to visit a man who is 5'5" and around 65-67 years old is exactly my point, which I'll expand upon below.


I was not threating anyone Ray . The face to face I plan to have with you & your teacher was to get right to the point where the truth would have easy came out. The face to face had nothing to do with me fighting anyone. I was going to prove that what you said happen to me with your teacher was a lie.


OK. So at least you can recall what I'm talking about. And then you go on saying the rest of Kung Fu is garbage but what distinguishes you from them? Everyone is training the best way they see fit.... you haven't gone out to fight, why should they?

Why don't you come and find out..lol I already told you I fight against all kind of people of all levels and styles and I don't have to go out to some event to prove it. The address where I train and spar is posted , all you have to do is show up brother and you see and feel what distinguishes me from the rest. Today there are some good KF players , but many are not that good in combat because they don't train free fighting. One reason why I feel most stuff out here is garbage as far hands on stuff. The only way Kung fu going to get better is KF players have to step up their game in combat training. And I don't mean they have to enter a competition to prove what they train is useful to test they self. There are many sparring meetings that go on in N.y.C. as well a few gyms and even parks where people can spar and test they skills.


What I can't commend you on is even considering challenging an old man in any shape or form. Even challenging me, I fight at 169lbs. I know a boxer across the street, a skinny little **** who talks **** sometimes and I tell him straight up, don't play around boy, you're not in my weight class. I'd just smother him, drag him down and beat him. What's the honor in that

Ray like always you making something in to more then what it need to be. I never challenge you or anyone. You the one that was talking all the big talk, I only invite you to come spar, roll or do whatever, as well other people that for some reason think I don't spar against highly skill people. Whatever truly don't matter to me , but I told you that your welcome as other individuals to come spar I don't see that as challenging anyone. Remember you the pit bull I don't want to **** with. Like I said you come with respect, you get respect back in return.


Brother, I offer you much love, but surely you can see this is a case of glass houses and one not throwing stones. Because of the mini-celebrity status you have, you should be taking the opportunity to high light CMA. You should fancy step Bill Duff and throw him... your technique looks solid.

How do you know I'm not going to fight Bill Duff. How do you not know the **** is not in the works. Like I said Ray you talk alot, but don't now what going on at all. Bottom line as you know in this world Ray everything is about money man, and when the money right then the rest will follow.


No, I face my fear of meeting a man of similar stature in an organized and sanctioned venue to compare. That's it. I'd love to match up with one of your students. I was thinking of getting a match this fall... it wouldn't be a problem. If you want, perhaps we can do an exhibition match in the same venue instead, but honestly, I feel I should be compensated for the differences. Maybe we make a light wager (one we can both agree on) but I get $20 extra for each 10lbs I give up. That seams fair to me.

Ray if I ever fight in any mma event it going to be for some good money. The sanctioned venue you fight don't pay nothing much and most of the times nothing at all. I know full well the run down about these events you fight at Like I told you I train with mma & BJJ guys these days. As well hang out with them. So I know the 411 on the mma world. So If you truly want to do a exhibition match I already posted the training gym where I train so I don't see the problem man. Video tape our match if you like, don't matter to me. I sure you beat me I move like a slow old man these days compare to you young boys.

As for my students. Well I have a few people that I help out which is training for MMA fights. But the only problem is they mostly heavyweight fighters. The Students I teach from my area just not interested in fighting in mma events.

But I see what I can do. Just e-mail me your e-mail adddress so we can keep in contact. Because like I told you I don't be up on these forums.

[1bad65]

I already told you I fight against all kind of people of all levels and styles and I don't have to go out to some event to prove it.

And I don't mean they have to enter a competition to prove what they train is useful to test they self.

Ray if I ever fight in any mma event it going to be for some good money. The sanctioned venue you fight don't pay nothing much and most of the times nothing at all.

You sure are lining up those excuses aren't you.




How do you know I'm not going to fight Bill Duff.

Again, are you even licensed to fight in a sanctioned MMA fight, be it amateur or professional?

[Ray Pina]

Well you was told a lie.

I should never have commented on something I didn't see for myself. I am sorry for that. Lesson learned.




I fight against all kind of people of all levels and styles and I don't have to go out to some event to prove it.

Obviously there is no need to prove anything to anyone, though I find the need to prove things to myself, time and time again.... just to reveal the power of God inside myself.

Personally, I know I can hang with most recreational to border-line competitive types, the types that float around seminars and gyms. I haven't proven that I can hang with true competitors, guys that train to a level, and are so confident in their skills they're willing to compete.

There's a world of difference between push hands and free sparring. Likewise, their is a night and day difference between banging with friends, classmates or associates in a training environment and facing a similar sized man in a ring or cage in front of hundreds of strangers, classmates and associates in front of which neither you, nor the other big dangerous man, want to punk out.

I'll be up in NYC in Aug. I'll be training at Renzo's and I've made some friends there that compete pretty much at the highest level. I invite you to join us if you want. Obviously the BJJ is world class, but there's some great boxers there that have taught me just really useful stuff... not about striking. Personally I prefer internal's stand up and game plan... but about general ringmanship, entry angles to negate attacks.


How do you know I'm not going to fight Bill Duff. How do you not know the **** is not in the works. Like I said Ray you talk alot, but don't now what going on at all. Bottom line as you know in this world Ray everything is about money man, and when the money right then the rest will follow.

I hope you fight Duff. And Amen brother about making the money.

[The Willow Sword]

that BT is not responding to you 1bad65. I will bet that he will not respond to you. The only reason why he is responding to Ray is because there would seem to be some Mutual respect but some miscommunication going that is being worked out and quite frankly 1bad65 it doesnt concern you or me.

I really do wish that the MMA'ers and the Kungfu people would just STFU and train and train to defend their life and be a positive role model in their communities other than brawlers for money with generally bad dispositions bad mouthing one another. Hey here is an Idea that i would like to see. Id like to see guys like Liddell and Desilva and those ProMMA'ers as well as the Hard Kung fu players become civil servants and be protectors in our communities, or be soldiers and defend our country, or police officers or firemen. maybe some of them are, i dont know. But i guess the money in those areas of service to our country and community dont pay as well as getting up there and beating the crap out of each other to some dyptheria ridden trailer white trash audience who gets off on seeing that sort of thing.

Anyway i respect Ray and Novell for their stance on things, i may not agree with it all but i at least feel they both have a little bit of integrity, which is way more than i can say about some posting here(or one actually).
Im done.
Peace and wake up, TWS

[Ray Pina]

Again, are you even licensed to fight in a sanctioned MMA fight, be it amateur or professional?

Getting a license is simply a matter of bringing $30 (or something like that) to the fight. So technically, I guess I'm still PAYING to fight... aint that a *****.

The only MMA I've heard of in NY was taking place out on an Indian reservation on Long Island. And I think the event got canceled. Coach Ross would know better than me.

I had to go to Jersey to compete. I recommend the venues though. For the most part they're run as good as you can run those things I think.... but it's still an all day thing, you never weigh in on time, you wait all night to fight.

[TenTigers]

Something about those "Chinatown matches."

I'm from there. I know the score. It's a little park in Chinatown were old men go to play dominos and do Taiji and some more fancy Wing Chun types go to prance around and dance. It's push hands at best. Otherwise there would be arrest, injuries, and certainly law suits.

It's nothing worth filming, certainly nothing worth bragging about. I went to check it out.... swear to God. I would have been embarrassed for myself fighting any of them men.

um, no Ray you weren't there. And that is not "the score." The park is where people play, as you said, push hands, and crossing hands, and that's all. It is very friendly and light-hearted. The underground Chinatown fights are not held out in public. They are private smokers, Which is why there are no arrests, or lawsuits.
held in private association halls,or in the catacombs, or basements, or another designated spot where there are no onlookers. (unless they are betting)

[1bad65]

Getting a license is simply a matter of bringing $30 (or something like that) to the fight. So technically, I guess I'm still PAYING to fight... aint that a *****.

I know in Texas you have to have blood work (for AIDS/HIV and Hep), a vision test by a licensed doctor, and if you are 35 or over an EEG and an EKG in order to get licensed.

Some states require/test for more, some for less. I just asked BT if he is licensed.
It's a simple question.....

[1bad65]

I think it's funny that BT is not responding to you 1bad65.

I think his silence speaks volumes myself.

[1bad65]

The underground Chinatown fights are not held out in public. They are private smokers, Which is why there are no arrests, or lawsuits.
held in private association halls,or in the catacombs, or basements, or another designated spot where there are no onlookers. (unless they are betting)

Sounds like The Kumite! :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

no, the Kumite was in a movie, and although Frank Dux's story is questionable, people like Paul Vizzio, Benny Urquidez, and others, did fight in underground fights. Paul Vizzio fought for Wai Hong's Fu Jow P'ai, and his history and legitimacy is well established.
But don't take my word for it. Ask anyone from NYC who was around at that time-70's to early 80's.

[blacktaoist]

Ray I don't know how you doing mma fighting but don't know about the underground figts in N.Y.C. Because all the guys I know and train with that do MMA know about the underground fights in N.Y.C going on in Steinway. There was one last week which was cover by a few newspapers man. Here a clip of my martial art training brother Ruban who fights at the MMA undergrounds in N.Y.C.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5OMv_CEQD20



Like I said you want to mix it up with me it got to be for good money in an open venue. But other then that you more then welcome anytime to the area where I train and we can throw down for free. So whats the problem man I already told you you can bring who you want as well video tape the whole sparring match between us. By the way my martial art brother Bruce Kivo of MMA Confidential host all kinds of MMA venues, so you want I can easy get you a fight on the next card in the underground man. Because like I said I am aware of the kind of venues you are fighting. Why not come play with the big boys over here , after all you a pit bull right. I already talk to one of my students who is a mma fighter himself , who training for these underground fights, and he sad he be open too fighting you at the next one. So contact me by e-mail and we can set this up Ray. Also if you don't want to fight at the underground I know Ed Hsu of Combat in the Cage and I can set some thing up at his venue which is well known if you somebody in MMA. So PM me and lets get it poping. Because like I told you Ray, you truly don't know me or the people I roll with brother. Anyway hit me up Ray P-M if you truly want to do this.

[blacktaoist]

For some reason Maoshan told me he having a problem posting on KFM and ask that I post this in this forum for him. Ok I'm out , wish you all the best in your martial art training.

MAOSHAN:


First of all Porkchop, 1bad65



Too much has already been written and I don’t have time to respond to it all, but here it is:



I stand by what I said to those punks that came at me.



(Of course, at the time everything was going down Nick was scheduled to fight Costa in Japan at a Sengoku event, which he did and won. Now he's eying a Showtime EliteXC belt at Welter. So even if he's not on the first flight to Syracuse to go fight Maoshan, he is doing a lot of real fighting for real money - more than Ben anyway.)





Then why did he challenge me in the first place? What was the point? And let's get this straight, A real fight is when there is no one to save you from death and that decision is soley in the hands of winner.






(Originally Posted by Justin Wade, an 0 and 3 pro-mma heavyweight

What's funny is I sent the guy an Email saying I'd fight him and asked him if he was okay fighting a pathetic mma'er my size ("6'8", 290 lbs.) And I got an email back that simply said, "I don't want to fight you."

and that was it.)



This is a straight lie. I’ve never heard of this person unless he’s one of the numerous no name threats I received in the e-mails concerning this topic. Also this statement says I challenged the whole MMA world. When did I do that? Also when was weight class part of my aurgument? Weight class is for sports and I’m not a sportsman.



(Originally Posted by James Funaro

I sent numerous emails saying a fight could be set up in a true Vale Tudo event soon, where they would be able to use their techniques and skills.

No reply.
I normally respect that people have varying opinions on martila arts, everyone has different loyalties and teachers and we all are stubborn about our beliefs.

However, I never outright diss on anyone like he does.

To state how awesome kung fu is compared to what he makes out to be what we do as just pathetic chest thumping in a ring, is uncalled for.

Fact that I have never even been given a reply on the matter of the Vale Tudo match should be proof to anyone of these jokers.)



You know, it’s funny how you have all the real names of people that were supposed to have had contact with me, but anyway,

If you really wanted the truth of this situation then you would have posted it all. The fact is I responded to the kung fu put down that the MMAer’s were dishing out because that’s what was being promoted by the Iron Ring, and all I responded with was truth. There is no comparison between sports and life.



Originally Posted by Maoshan

As for your remarks to kung fu, you watch too many movies. Kung Fu is the art of survival. No MMAer would survive an encounter against the basic technique of a properly trained practitioner.


A lot of guys are going to take that as a challenge.
So acting like "woe is me, everyone's challenging us just coz I was on a TV show" is bullsh!t.
Anybody poppin off with that and then turning down opportunities to prove it locally and abroad is a joke.



First let me clearify this statement, being that all of this crap has been taken out of context,

The base of martial arts is survival. The base of MMA is trophy and ego. I stand by what I said. Next, What opportunities are you talking about? Nothing real has come my way yet, and the only one to actually come to me was from Thompson which he never meant in the 1st place?. You guys are a joke. I was the one challenged yet I have to come up with 40,000 and come to a designated place and if I don’t I’m full of ****? And even more to the point, I wasn’t supposed to talk back to the MMA crowd when they were dissing kung fu and because I did All this crap erupted?: I’m going to tell you like this.

I learned martial arts for self defense not play. I’m not in the ring because if that’s what I wanted to do I would have done so 20yrs ago. Next, I’m no B***h so your not going to say just anything to me and expect me to KowTow. I’ve got too much pride. I’ve received so many letters about how either nick or one of them is going to fuk me up or worse it’s crazy. I will say this though, It’s more real then it’s ever been. And if I’m approached I’m going to show just how real it is. I don’t jump at shadows. I never have and I’m not about to start..





Mao

[1bad65]

Hey BT; tell us all why you ARE NOT licensed, and cannot get licensed, to fight in a sanctioned fight. :D

[1bad65]

and although Frank Dux's story is questionable,

Thats putting it mildly!

Even his US Army records say he was delusional.

[sanjuro_ronin]

um, no Ray you weren't there. And that is not "the score." The park is where people play, as you said, push hands, and crossing hands, and that's all. It is very friendly and light-hearted. The underground Chinatown fights are not held out in public. They are private smokers, Which is why there are no arrests, or lawsuits.
held in private association halls,or in the catacombs, or basements, or another designated spot where there are no onlookers. (unless they are betting)

And indian reservations ...;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Originally Posted by Maoshan

As for your remarks to kung fu, you watch too many movies. Kung Fu is the art of survival. No MMAer would survive an encounter against the basic technique of a properly trained practitioner.

You know, its comments like that that give TMA, in this case TCMA, a bad name.

[SimonM]

Yup. It's not precisely fair though. MMA has as many poorly educated nutriders who discount all other martial arts aside from MT/BJJ crosstraining as TMA has nutriders who think that a trained professional pugilist would mystically fail on the street because they don't have the real martial skill.

Keep in mind that the people who live in that lala fantasy land will probably either never fight or will get whupped like a red headed stepchild.

[Ray Pina]

I really do wish that the MMA'ers and the Kungfu people would just STFU and train and train to defend their life and be a positive role model in their communities other than brawlers for money with generally bad dispositions bad mouthing one another. Hey here is an Idea that i would like to see. Id like to see guys like Liddell and Desilva and those ProMMA'ers as well as the Hard Kung fu players become civil servants and be protectors in our communities, or be soldiers and defend our country, or police officers or firemen.

Here's the thing.... I don't train "to defend my life." I've been in martial arts since I was 4, grew up playing sports, I don't need to train to handle myself against your average, or even above average civilian. I have strength, speed and will.

I train because I love it. I love to compete. I love to fight. Because of that I train to get better at what I do for self preservation in a dangerous environment and to someday win.

Is there not room in this large world for people like that?

We have soldiers. We have teachers. We have soldiers. Let everyone be free to choose their destiny.

I don't tell a soldier how to do his job. I don't tell a teacher how to teach math. Let everyone do their specialty.

[Ray Pina]

The underground Chinatown fights are not held out in public. They are private smokers, Which is why there are no arrests, or lawsuits.
held in private association halls,or in the catacombs, or basements, or another designated spot where there are no onlookers. (unless they are betting)

I just don't know about this.

I know about the Freemasons, even have rough-housed chi saud c with some of their Wing Chun players in tight hallways, I know about the S. Mantis crew, even had dinner with Uncle Milton once years ago.

I respect these guys for who they are and what they do but their martial arts is recreational level at best. Period. Unless there's some other heavy underground hitters.

If so, please, I beg you, PM me some info because I'd like to humble myself and learn from someone... if there's a modern day Master Bond Chan, a stand out, I'd like to meet him or her.

ANy help would be greatly appreciated.

[Ray Pina]

I know in Texas you have to have blood work (for AIDS/HIV and Hep), a vision test by a licensed doctor, and if you are 35 or over an EEG and an EKG in order to get licensed.

Some states require/test for more, some for less. I just asked BT if he is licensed.
It's a simple question.....

I wish this were the case... with guys dripping blood and sweat into your face. I just got tested (blood and ****) because I thought I had something that turned out just to be a cycst.... perfect health. No cancer. No STDs.

Praise Jah!

[Ray Pina]

Also if you don't want to fight at the underground I know Ed Hsu of Combat in the Cage and I can set some thing up at his venue which is well known if you somebody in MMA. So PM me and lets get it poping. Because like I told you Ray, you truly don't know me or the people I roll with brother. Anyway hit me up Ray P-M if you truly want to do this.

I heard about those venues. There was a big article in the NY Times about them the last time I was in town.

Personally, I'd rather not go uptown and fight in an illegal event when I can go to Jersey and fight legit, with doctors, etc. I just don't see the need and from what I've seen the competition looks stiffer, drawing top schools from all over. Guys fly in. I'll be flying in from Puerto Rico.

I'd like to fight again sometime in Nov. I can fight at 169lbs or 174lbs. Let's keep in touch brother. Respect. Maybe I'm just a little edgy. Competing in San Juan tomorrow. Been training hard. Not I got to get off this thing and focus.

Peace

[sanjuro_ronin]

I heard about those venues. There was a big article in the NY Times about them the last time I was in town.

Personally, I'd rather not go uptown and fight in an illegal event when I can go to Jersey and fight legit, with doctors, etc. I just don't see the need and from what I've seen the competition looks stiffer, drawing top schools from all over. Guys fly in. I'll be flying in from Puerto Rico.

I'd like to fight again sometime in Nov. I can fight at 169lbs or 174lbs. Let's keep in touch brother. Respect. Maybe I'm just a little edgy. Competing in San Juan tomorrow. Been training hard. Not I got to get off this thing and focus.

Peace

Hey Ray, off-topic question, but I notice you mention size a lot and even here you ask for a fight in a certain weight class, why?

[MasterKiller]

Hey Ray, off-topic question, but I notice you mention size a lot and even here you ask for a fight in a certain weight class, why?

Because weight matters. D'uh!

[1bad65]

Unless there's some other heavy underground hitters.

If so, please, I beg you, PM me some info because I'd like to humble myself and learn from someone... if there's a modern day Master Bond Chan, a stand out, I'd like to meet him or her.

Don't hold your breath. ;)

[1bad65]

I wish this were the case... with guys dripping blood and sweat into your face. I just got tested (blood and ****) because I thought I had something that turned out just to be a cycst.... perfect health. No cancer. No STDs.

Well Texas does not test for steroids or illegal drugs. They do require the promoter to insure the fighters though. I know Louisiana does not require them to do so.

[TenTigers]

I just don't know about this.

I know about the Freemasons, even have rough-housed chi saud c with some of their Wing Chun players in tight hallways, I know about the S. Mantis crew, even had dinner with Uncle Milton once years ago.

I respect these guys for who they are and what they do but their martial arts is recreational level at best. Period. Unless there's some other heavy underground hitters.

No, those are just friendly playing. Even if it might sometimes get out of hand due to egos. Not the same.

[Ray Pina]

Hey Ray, off-topic question, but I notice you mention size a lot and even here you ask for a fight in a certain weight class, why?

When I was doing Throwdowns I've fought guys who've had as much as 100lbs on me. I have video of me knocking the **** out of a guy who had 85lbs on me. I took my videos down because I had a fight a few months ago. I posted two here recently because someone asked and one was on topic for recent videos.

That was at a time when I was gaining new skills and had no venue in which to test them. Fact was, I was SAFER fighting a 280lbs guy with no rules at a Throwdown than I would have been fighting an equal-sized competitive MMAer at the time. If I didn't feel that way I would have just fought in the MMA then. Much more respect and clout, much more potential for any type of reward, whether opening a future school or trying to go pro.

Now I feel I can compete and win... which is why I show up when I say I'm going to fight. I haven't won, but I've exposed my weaknesses and I'm working to improve them. Why? I don't really know. I don't think I'll be UFC champ, but it would be quite an achievement if I could make it to at least fight one fight at that level.

Here's the thing about me, and I guess other fighters, I fight to reveal things about myself. I don't want to fight a guy who weights 50lbs less than me....if I win, it COULD have been my size and strength advantage. This plays out in every jui-jitsu class. Some guys you can play with, using technique/posture/position alone. Some guys you have to muscle a little bit. Of course the best is beating a guy much bigger than you. But almost always that's because you have much more skill then them.... or they did something stupid or you get lucky. But you know the saying about being luckier the more you train.

[Ray Pina]

No, those are just friendly playing. Even if it might sometimes get out of hand due to egos. Not the same.

Can you tell me at least what crews are producing these fighters? From Chinatown?

I'll be up in Aug. and obviously I want to see Master Chan and Master Renzo but I'd love to see some other Kung Fu if it's really proving useful.

Honestly, I've embraced BJJ full heartedly but I keep rejecting most stand up I see. I feel at this stage in my life it's foolish to try and compete in boxing when there are guys in their mid-20s who've been doing it for 10 years. Same with Thai Boxing.

The only real advantage that I have is a strong right lead with some unorthadox entering and trapping. I don't want to "box" with someone.

Anyway, I'd love to see if there's any untapped gold in Chinatown. Personally, I think Master Chan is a much underutilized diamond. Man, you should pay him a visit. Super cool guy. Not just nice, but cool. His skills are something different. I'll just say that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Because weight matters. D'uh!

All the more reason to fight outside your weight division, DUH !
I came from Kyokushin at a time were we didn't have any weight divisions, they we had two, over 200 and under 200 ( more like 220 to be truthful).
One of the biggest guys I fought was 6-4 and 260, while I loss I had 3 knockdowns over that match and held my own, to an extent.
One of the best learning experiences I ever had.

[Ray Pina]

All the more reason to fight outside your weight division, DUH !
I came from Kyokushin at a time were we didn't have any weight divisions, they we had two, over 200 and under 200 ( more like 220 to be truthful).
One of the biggest guys I fought was 6-4 and 260, while I loss I had 3 knockdowns over that match and held my own, to an extent.
One of the best learning experiences I ever had.

That's great. And I agree with you. Before I'm a competitor or an internalist or a BJJ or MMA or even a martial artists I'm a man living in this world who has to deal with what the world presents.

I have trained a long time in a lot of different things. At this stage in my life I feel if I'm consciously training to fight competitively it gives me a huge cardio, technical and performance advantage over most.

I say "training to fight competitively" again because I don't think it's competitive of me to pick a fight with a 130lbs BJJ purple belt, even though I'm only a white belt. I'm a white belt who's a lean and mean 185lbs right now with four sanctioned fights and over a dozen challenge matches. That's not competition.

Likewise, Novell, who at -- does anyone have his measures? -- I'll estimate 6'7, 240lbs, shouldn't be seeking to compete with me at 5'10.5 (I love giving myself that .5... it's true). He should find a man who's not only equally sized, but equally trained. That's competition.

Outside of competition, if there's really beef... it won't be a fist fight and you won't see me coming. That's just the reality of things today. Martial arts have a more realistic place in the ring/cage today than they do in a world of suicide bombers, D.C. snipers, mall shooters, etc.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Outside of competition, if there's really beef... it won't be a fist fight and you won't see me coming. That's just the reality of things today. Martial arts have a more realistic place in the ring/cage today than they do in a world of suicide bombers, D.C. snipers, mall shooters, etc.

Yes and no, as with all things, more shades of gray than B&W.

[Ray Pina]

Obviously I love martial arts. The discipline, awareness, mind control, health... priceless!

One last thing I have to say, and it's regarding underground scenes.

I **** my neighbors off playing my electric guitar at 2a.m. on Sat. night, heavy with the fuzz and wah-wah peddle. I can and have played underground NYC... I haven't gotten any invites to Carnegie Hall or Radio City Music Hall.

There's a reason underground is underground. Nobody wants to pay to see a bum perform unless he's in the park with a hat looking for a handout.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Obviously I love martial arts. The discipline, awareness, mind control, health... priceless!

One last thing I have to say, and it's regarding underground scenes.

I **** my neighbors off playing my electric guitar at 2a.m. on Sat. night, heavy with the fuzz and wah-wah peddle. I can and have played underground NYC... I haven't gotten any invites to Carnegie Hall or Radio City Music Hall.

There's a reason underground is underground. Nobody wants to pay to see a bum perform unless he's in the park with a hat looking for a handout.

Interesting view and it holds some merit.

[1bad65]

Maoshan is a liar.

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=1&thread=1280774&page=1&pc=386

[Flying-Monkey]

This is a joke. Mao should fight if he wants to talk so much sh!t. We are stuck in the classic cyclic kung fu argument. This "I fought in the streets" crap is old. You should meet with this guy and agree on rules to fight. None of this "I'm too deadly" or "all my techniques are outside of the rules" crap.

The problem is that they are pumping themselves up so much that they can't lose. They don't understand that they would have to win. All they have to do is make a goos solid showing. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, they painted themselves to be
unbeatable.


Unfortunately, 99% of the showings in cage matches have been jokes. These kung fu competitor have been fooled into believing a lot of the kung fu garbage so they look like clowns in the ring. They have NO idea of how to use their arts. They don't trust in their art. So they switch to half-a$$ kickboxers.

[Water-quan]

This is a joke. Mao should fight if he wants to talk so much sh!t. We are stuck in the classic cyclic kung fu argument. This "I fought in the streets" crap is old. You should meet with this guy and agree on rules to fight. None of this "I'm too deadly" or "all my techniques are outside of the rules" crap.

.

Agreed - recently read an interview with kung fu legend Zhao Daoxin, reporting - from his own experience - that back in the twenties and thirties in China, the taiji people used to claim they were too deadly to step up on the leitai. Rather as they do now.

[Ray Pina]

You know what it is too. The standard has changed.

Back in the day, in the 80s, the day of the karate tournament, I would be a freaking God. I train so hard today just to maintain a level that I consider to be the standard.

What these men don't want to admit outwardly, but most assuredly comprehend inwardly, is that EVERYONE is TRAINING with high level people. Hell, a night couldn't go by at Renzo's without some famous pro stepping on the mat. I've seen Matt Serra and George St. Pierre there. A bunch of famous Brazilian guys. Not to mention the house master himself, a legend.... That doesn't automatically translate to everyone else. It helps. But at the end of the day you have to take that final pi$$, the one in the locker room before you tighten up your pants and mind and know you are minutes away from WAR. Period. Punto.

Street fights? Who wasn't clubbing away in playgrounds back in the day? Who doesn't run into the occasional a$$hole? I don't take credit for pushing civilians around. And you loose my respect for picking fights with older or smaller men instantly when there are AMPLE opportunities to fight similar sized guys who would rock their world. They know this.

More money for fighting Bill Duff? Awesome. Obviously go for it. But the flip side is why should anyone pay him to begin with? Who the hell is he?

And here is the dilemma: They have both made a name for themselves using the internet. Talking and posting training videos. The old timers called that mouth boxing. Maybe today it's keyboard warrior, right?

There's nothing worse to a guy who has had to take that pi$$ and walk through a set of doors to go fight someone scary. I knew the guy that broke my nose and TKOd me was going to **** me up. You just know. It was my second amateur San Da fight and he was already a pro MMAist. I learned that after the fact. After he broke my nose, I got up. He knocked my ass down two more times.

To know that there are kung fu players that actually look at these guys as high level says a lot about the state of things. These guys haven't done d!ck. They know it and they aint getting younger.

Fighters look at these types as jokes. They don't even understand the arguments they use to justify their behavior are outright comical.

They think everyone is running from them. The fact is there are so many opportunities that they have, are and will continue to run from until they break down that barrier in their mind and truly go out to fight. Warriors! Not bums who think they're training hard..... six pack toting, shoulders to the neck drilling my head through your rib cage, my fists have drawn blood and broken bone warriors.

These guys think highly of themselves. And why not? They are elite and know it. They don't want to go to dirty back allies and basements in Harlem to literally fight bums, guys who promote living on the street as a badge of what? Honor? Courage?

[Pork Chop]

Nice post Ray, that kinda summarizes where myself and a lot of others are coming from and kinda why I've not even bothered pushing the argument any further.

There's an old quote along the lines of:
"You can play football, you can play basketball, but you don't play boxing. If you try to play you'll get killed."
And as far as a ruleset goes, boxing's one of the most limited of the bunch.
Look just last week at that boxer that made the news fighting here in San Antonio, who had to have half his brain removed to save his life from brain swelling.
You think it don't hurt just coz it's a sport?

Not only that; but just coz a technique is illegal, doesn't mean you're not going to see it in the ring or the cage.
Just look at any fight featuring Gilbert Yvel, Ken Shamrock vs Bart Vale, that standing arm break by Aoki the other month, and especially Yuki Nakai versus Gerard Gordeau (Nakai lost an eye as a result of an eye gouge but still submitted Gordeau in the fight).

It was funny and ironic how many of those "justifications" could've been turned back around & used against them:

"The mentality of the ring will get you killed in the street."
Well, i think it's much more common to find that the training mentality of people who only fight in the street will get you seriously injured/killed in the ring.

"How many mma fighters could stand up to a single technique executed by a properly trained traditional artist?" (para)
How many traditionally trained people would literally sh!t their pants at a real leg kick from an actual ranked pro?
Heck in the street, you can at least run away or call for help.

"mma is about ego and trophies"
Err, who's the one talking about how deadly they are without stepping up to prove any of it (invitations were posted to 2 separate events)?
Who's the one that wears flashy silk outfits?
Believe me, as a sport-trained guy, there's nothing more ego crushing than the setbacks & failures involved with training for & fighting in sporting contests.
Funny enough, at Militech Gym - which actually sells a shirt that says "Your kung fu is no good here" - the staff & regulars are famous for putting egos in check, either by brutal beatdown or by asking big-headed folks to leave.

Truth be told, I'm not a huge fan of Bill Duff. He made Human Weapon unwatchable for me. Especially when you read online (particularly the blog by the Judo guy he sparred) that the guys he was sparring with were told to hold back or told it was just going to be light; and he starts looking for blood. How many times did he punch that pankration dude in the face after being told it was against the rules? At least he and BT are stepping up so they deserve respect; but I'm curious to see what kind of showing they each make.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well this thread has every cliche in the book,
Well done gentlemen, I salute you !

[Lucas]

well this thread has every cliche in the book,
well done gentlemen, i salute you !

t.o.d.

11:17 pst 7/21/08

[Ray Pina]

weapon: (noun)
1) A device designed to inflict injury or death on an opponent.

2) Something used as a way of getting an advantage in a situation.

Cliche or not, by definition this is exactly what I'm training my body for.

[Zi Zheng]

but, here's the way I see it.

Kung Fu guys/traditional practitioners, for the most part, have less ego than MMA-ists.

The MMA guys fight in rings with rules and traditional guys don't train for that.

Maybe it's envy on the part of the traiditional guys that these MMA guys have trained less amounts of time and are built up to celebrity status, when us traditional guys have busted our asses living this as a lifestyle rather than sport and get none of that. I don't care about fortune or fame... it's just an opinion
that gives rise to traditional guys saying... "oh, that crap wouldn't work on the street. What I do would kill them, etc. etc."

That's crap. A choke hold works anywhere and so does smashing dude's face in the ground.

MMA guys say, "bring your art in the ring and I'll rip you a new... donkey hole?."

That's like having a soccer player tell the hockey player he can't hang with him on a soccer field. No F'n Duh! It's two different methods of training. That's why these dopey ass traditional guys always try and learn BJJ for 6 months and think they can win. Get real.

But I don't see ANY MMA guys running around challenging traditional guys. And i'm not talking about calling them out and making you tube vids and non-sense. Go to a kung fu school and say "I want to challenge you right now." One of two things will happen.

1. There's gonna be a fight. And all bets are off. The "closed door" way of doing things. no gloves, padded rings, and most important... doctors.

2. The challenged school will not fight in which case they should have pea**** feathers closed on their alter and not be recognized for any fighting skill what-so-ever.

Either way... both are right on a certain level. As a traditional practitioner, I don't train to wear gloves and match strength in holds and locks. I personally think I wouldn't do as well in a ring, but... I don't care what your size and reputation is... come ot the park where I teach and put me in a position where my hands get raised and something bad is going to happen to someone.

It's a matter of humility... and ***** envy on both parts.

MMA has it's roots based out of traditional arts. It's a sport now. Traditional guys should not care about "your kung fu is no good here" T-shirts and what not. Who cares... talk is talk. There MMA is no good in our schools or parks. That's not our "ways". I like to train with weapons. Not exactly fair if they bring their gloves and I bring my broadsword. "Our" training is different. But there is place for all in the world.

I'm a traditional guy, but in defense of the MMA guys. The traditional guys struck first. At least from my opinion and what Ive experienced and saw. Or else they wouldn't be putting "your kung fu is no good here" on shirts.

One of my Shifu's used to say this all the time... ::really bad kung fu movie dubbed voice:: "In kung fu... all techniques are fair."

Time to let it go...

[Merryprankster]

I disagree that most MMAists or sport combatives people have "bigger egos."

We tend to be more competitive, that I'll grant. But that's not the same as "bigger ego." Competition - genuine competition - is all about investing in loss and testing yourself. NOT about beating the other guy.

How happy I am with a medal is directly proportional to how hard I worked to obtain it and my overall performance.

I do agree that there is room enough for both in the world, as long as nobody is fooling themselves, either way.

For instance, it's almost ridiculous, in my opinion, to say that most of us are doing self-defense, when we're actually learning to fight. Completely not synonymous. Fighting is a part of self-defense, but there are many more skills in that whole.

Similarly, I don't pretend to be a fighter. I'm first and foremost, a sport BJJ guy these days. Do I have a decent, usable, skill set? Sure. Hopefully I won't ever have reason to use them outside a ring or mat. Do I think of myself as a fighter? Nope. And people who DO are making a huge mistake, IMO.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

When is this fight supposed to happen now?

[unkokusai]

Kung Fu guys/traditional practitioners, for the most part, have less ego than MMA-ists.

The MMA guys fight in rings with rules and traditional guys don't train for that.

Maybe it's envy on the part of the traiditional guys that these MMA guys have trained less amounts of time and are built up to celebrity status, when us traditional guys have busted our asses living this as a lifestyle rather than sport and get none of that.

As a traditional practitioner, I don't train to wear gloves and match strength in holds and locks. ... come ot the park where I teach and put me in a position where my hands get raised and something bad is going to happen to someone.

There MMA is no good in our schools or parks. That's not our "ways". I like to train with weapons. Not exactly fair if they bring their gloves and I bring my broadsword. "Our" training is different. But there is place for all in the world.
...



Oh yeah...much less ego... :rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

weapon: (noun)
1) A device designed to inflict injury or death on an opponent.

2) Something used as a way of getting an advantage in a situation.

Cliche or not, by definition this is exactly what I'm training my body for.




............................... :rolleyes:

[Zi Zheng]

Merry prnkster. You are humble, and Like i said, not that my opinion counts for anything, but my experiences with the MMA crowd have not gone well. I was in contact with art of war in Beijing to fight in China and really looked at the whole MMA thing but the guys I came across (here in the states) were nice, but a lot of ego. For the sake of not starting crap, I'm not going to mention names or where. I like the sport aspect of it because that's how i view it. I liked what you said. But going back to the attitude, of course they were gonna be nice... every school has it's politics and people who don't like other classmates, but no one is going to be outright mean to a guy just starting there. Just my experience with the overall atmosphere of it. Maybe i'm too conditioned with a traditional background. Maybe I should check out more schools. Who knows.

Unko - yeah, I read my post and saw how that could be ego driven. It wasn't meant that way. I didn't say I would win the fight or kick any ones butt... I know I could get wrecked, but it's the one thing that both disciplines have... fearlessness. Ring or not, we're all trained to not back down, and stand our ground. ::and solo from Tom Petty::

Confidence over arrogance is the key.

[mawali]

Zi Zhen said
Kung Fu guys/traditional practitioners, for the most part, have less ego than MMA-ists.

Less ego has never indicated superior skill! Just the opposite because less skill means less confidence and "kungfu", in most instances, does falter when tested with real world skills. Let me say none of these means that the competitor is invincible but the bottom line is "who can back up what they say"?

CungLe is great but not invincible because he shows what sanshou can do while the many, falter in that regard. Tim Cartmell is great because he can actually show people how to develop skill without pretending, like most, that kungfu makes you, for lack of the proper word "invincible", which it does not!

If you have to tell someone you are humble, you aint! Just a general comment.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Jesus....

Black Taoist is the new Frank Dux. All of his fights are unprovable, "Underground" fights. Was it to the death just like the Kumite?

Seriously.....

Put up or shut up.

And put a lid on your yappy little friend. I used to have friends who'd pick fights and leave them to his homies. I did to him what I would with anyone who bumps off at the mouth a little too much....

Stopped hanging out with them. they f@ck with your integrity...