Bridging

[EarthDragon]

The other night we were working on bridging.
This seemed more diffucult for my students that I expected. It turned into slapping more than linking.
Any ideas for training this essential part of free sparring?

I used the anaolgy of bridging like the recipe for cooking. You can know the finished dish, and you can know the ingrediants but the recipe is key to the final product.

i.e the solo movements, the expected outcome but to link these together is something that I feel needs more attention.

[CeruleanRyuujin]

Hi EarthDragon,

When it comes to bridging in sparring we introduce it with a backfist to the face. The opponent has two choices: 1) block it, thus creating the bridge or 2) getting a backfist to the face.

Where you go from here is really up to you. I find it best to give the students a set direction however so we avoid slap fighting.

ie. Backfist to bridge > hook/grab or lean > enter close quarters fighting with 2 well placed hits and then take the person down.

Very simple, but it is a great drill for basic bridging and where you can go from it.

[RandyBrown]

Gentlemen, This is from Tony Puyot in response to your question. His work computer doesn't allow posting to these forums.
Good luck,
Randy Brown
--

"Earth dragon,

Just so we both have the same understanding of what we define as bridging; Moving from being outside of striking range, to inside of striking range, without being countered by the enemy.

I am a little unclear as to what you mean by linking, could you explain this a bit.

So, in my world to move in without using some form of bridging tactic would invite a counter. The idea is to occupy the enemy in his/her mind, body or both so that they are unable to move or launch a counter attack the moment you cross that line (What we call Critical Distance).

The most fundamental drill is setup out of range from your partner and then move in to attack with just a single strike, precipitated by various bridging tactics to occupy the enemy. This will give you outstanding feedback, the tactic works or doesn’t work. If not then the bridging tactic needs to be corrected or refined.

An example of a bridging tactic is a “feint”. A body movement that simulates a precursor movement of an attack in a direction other than the intended one. As the enemy flinches or reacts they are locked into their movement and unable to react to the real attack that immediately follows the lie.

Other tactics include Fakes, Distraction, Position Change, Programming, and Timing, to name a few. In our curriculum we have the above list of bridging strategies (and more) that students work to refine. Once they have all the tactics down they can choose to use what they like or what works best for them.

Hope this helps,

Tony Puyot

PS - Come to San Diego and I'll be happy to go over our training methods with you."

[mantis108]

I believe bridging is found in all of the 12 keywords of the Greater Meihua Line specifically in Ti Na Feng Bi, where drills like Gou Lou Cai/Feng Shou and Pi Zha Wu Shou are designed to highlight this aspect of close quarter combat.

Mantis108

[RandyBrown]

I believe bridging is found in all of the 12 keywords of the Greater Meihua Line specifically in Ti Na Feng Bi, where drills like Gou Lou Cai/Feng Shou and Pi Zha Wu Shou are designed to highlight this aspect of close quarter combat.

Mantis108

Thanks for the comment Robert. I have to disagree with you here. Those are at least not what we define as bridging. Those are the actual bridge of when contact is made but not the act of bridging itself. What we're specifically speaking of here is the act of going from a range with no ability to hit someone to being able to hit someone.

Hope that clarifies.

Randy

[TaichiMantis]

Bridging...semantics. If you mean making a connection with the opponent to sense their energy to project or retract your own, use theirs against themselves, then you may want to look at moves within the upper/lower 8 elbows forms and intercepting fist form. Mantis moves in these forms can bring your opponent closer to do damage going in, clinging, thrusting away, hooking and dropping elbows to bring a face or body quickly in into your upthrusting knee, unweighting them to take their center, maneuver them for locks, tendon or joint damage. Much can be done with palms, wrists, forearms, elbows, shoulders along with a hip/waist/shoulder turn, dropped/lifted stance....;)

[Oso]

i've heard bridging used to describe BOTH ideas that are being discussed.

it's just a word, no need to say it can only be used to describe one thing is there?

[yu shan]

Thought that was kind of strong as well Oso.

[Tainan Mantis]

What is bridging?
I think it must be from Wing Chun, or some southern styles.

No teacher I have ever had has made mention of this term in Chinese.

In all the books of kung fu I have read I have never seen it, except, like I said in some southern books.

It is not mentioned in Eight Step Mantis, and as far as I know, not any other branch of Mantis.

Maybe, it is part of the vernacular of some Mantis schools which have lived in HK for many years?

It is easier to talk about what we are trying to accomplish within the terminology of Mantis.

So I think Mantis108 is on the right track in trying to translate it into mantis terminology.

[Three Harmonies]

All good stuff. I have found it hard (to say the least) to bridge using trapping, and other aspects of Mantis training (sticking, etc.) against a trained opponent. To be honest when I work with my boxing coach if I use some of my mantis stuff my teeth will be on the floor! So much of Mantis is dependent on your opponent reaching out with his arms. If he does not, I find it hard to work against.
With trained partners / opponents you need to work into the clinch immediately otherwise you risk eating a fist, head, or elbow! Most of my training as of late has centered around the clinch range (all aspects of grappling and striking from it). I would suggest working some into your training, as this is how a real fight will most likely unfold.
Cheers
Jake :)

[EarthDragon]

"Earth dragon,

Just so we both have the same understanding of what we define as bridging; Moving from being outside of striking range, to inside of striking range, without being countered by the enemy.

I am a little unclear as to what you mean by linking, could you explain this a bit.

correct. I was looking for what others do to drill this into everyday practice. Itr seemed diffucult for my students to comprehend to teh degree that i was looking for, then i felt perhaps I had not taught corectly or spent enough time on it to become fluid. my overlook.

linking in this sense just meant to connect the movements from outside sticking area to bridge then to attack and conquer.

in 8 step we have our eight cardinal rules, one of which is
"close the enemy with the long hand, then destroy them with the close hand"

Just wanted to get some other ideas on training this vital point of combat. or at least real free sparring.

Tainan,
this rule is in 8 step and compares to bridging like twins. Symantics aside they are in deed the same.

there is sooooo much information in the arts that one can spend lifetime just getting the ideas much less being proficent in these areas. I tend to learn myself everytime I teach.

[Oso]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bridge



2. a connecting, transitional, or intermediate route or phase between two adjacent elements, activities, conditions, or the like: Working at the hospital was a bridge between medical school and private practice.

[Redfish]

All good stuff. I have found it hard (to say the least) to bridge using trapping, and other aspects of Mantis training (sticking, etc.) against a trained opponent. To be honest when I work with my boxing coach if I use some of my mantis stuff my teeth will be on the floor! So much of Mantis is dependent on your opponent reaching out with his arms. If he does not, I find it hard to work against.
With trained partners / opponents you need to work into the clinch immediately otherwise you risk eating a fist, head, or elbow! Most of my training as of late has centered around the clinch range (all aspects of grappling and striking from it). I would suggest working some into your training, as this is how a real fight will most likely unfold.
Cheers
Jake :)

This still fits if you take Master Puyot's deifinition. Outside of the striking distance, punching you is 'reaching out the arms'. This is when bridging takes place. And once you enter inside the distance line, that when you have entered the 'clinch' ... to then employ your term.

[Three Harmonies]

Red-
Good point. I was making more of a reference to "countering" or "responding" to my opponents attack, when I was talking about reaching out. I look at a nice tight guard as being foundationally superior to lets say just "blocking" with the arms. I can punch straight out, and back in which is basically the safest method of striking (remember that all strikes open us up to counters, and various techniques), yet it still leaves gaps that our opponent can fill.
I was just trying to help ED out by mentioning that I believe (and Tony has the same opinion as we spoke about it not too long ago) that clinch range is one of the most important areas of combat that is most often overlooked! Especially in Mantis! Well.... lets be honest.... especially in CMA! The CMA has not developed a comprehensive clinch game IMO. I have had to import much of what I know from other styles. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of techniques found in CMA that are most useful in the clinch range, but actual strategy and skill wise I find this range lacking in many CMA curriculums.
For instance I had a gentleman and lady stop by about two months ago and observe a class. I explained my group classes are combative in nature, and not style specific. That night we happened to be working a bit on Thai Clinch (Plam). They both made a comment that it did not "look" like CMA, and I said "Thank you." I then explained that the CMA do not really have a Thai Clinch in their curriculum, and that I would be ****ed if I did not prepare my students both defensively, and offensively for a technique that worked so **** good just because it is "not traditional CMA!"
I hope more people follow Mr. Puyot's lead and start to really tear apart and analyze their arts subjectively for the betterment of both themselves and especially their students! Our biggest failure as practitioners / teachers would to have one of our students get their ass kicked because we did not teach them something just cus' it is not "in CMA!"

Good discussion guys! Especially for KFO!!!:eek:

Cheers
Jake:D

[mantis108]

Personally, I respect others approach of instruction. So it's perfectly fine with me about disagreement to my approach.

As for the "discrepancy" between CMA and other arts in the clinch range, it is because CMA prefer to use Chin Na instead of clinching. We prefer to use Chin Na is because it is consistent with the idea of bridging (as in sticky hands, push hands etc). While the clinch is position base (about 6 of them in general), Chin Na is structure base IMHO. The main concern of clinching is positional dominance. Chin Na on the other hand is concerned with weakening and destroying the structure of the opponent which in layman's term is to disturb the opponent's balance. To achieve that Chin Na make use of "Jiao Men" (making a gate ajar) which is to draw the elbow(s) of opponent away from from his/her body; hence, in GML 12 keywords, lai jiao shun song is directly related to this area of techniques. In conjunction of Jiao Men, technique such as the ge zhou/qie zhou (cut elbow)which is basically a standing arm bar is used to break the structure of the opponent; therefore, taking control of his/her balance leading to a takedown which further control measure can be use on the opponent on the ground (not necessary about ground fighting). Of course, we might use wrist or shoulder joint to achieve this result as well. But the point is that creating Jiao Men and breaking the posture of the opponent are principles that make Chin Na work. Of course, we can argue that it doesn't necessarily work in pressure testing. But that's why we need to train with this understanding and not just blindly repeat prearranged sequences and favorable conditions that handed down without digesting what principle is involved first.

BTW, thanks Kevin for seeing what I was trying to convey. :)

Just a thought.

Mantis108

[Oso]

why is the clinch range not still chin na?

underhooks and overhooks are shoulder chin na

the thai style double hand on the head clinch is neck chin na

a high crotch is hip chin na

a bear hug is rib chin na :p;):D

mmm, ribs....

[ninjaboy]

"mmmm.....ribs"

lol

[Oso]

lol, i wanted ribs for sure tonight...might have to do them myself tomorrow...been working on a new bbq recipe

[Redfish]

Jake

Where I tend to agree with your assessment here is that even though I quite believe in CMA/Mantis 'techniques' I feel that once that first bridge or counter is made and you go inside, then you're in the 'clinch' - so basically that first part is over in a split second (whether we think it 'works' or not) and what follows is the 'main part' so you're right to place importance on it.

Does that make sense?

Our teacher and Shigong both say that if you want to use 'kung fu' to beat someone you have to be good enough to all but end it in three moves or 7-8 ish seconds. Basically , going in, bridge, finish.

I think that structure is similar to MMA too which might use the shoot to bridge and the ground to finish. CMA on the street might use the jab to go in and a low kick to finish.

Of course, this is abstract and you can't assume everyone in a fight is an expert. On the other hand, if we were using scientific method to analyse then I guess we would assume everyone is in shape and an expert to be able to look only at the style.

This is where I sigh when reading CMA vs MMA threads which seem to use the model of a full time pro MMA fighter vs a thirteen year old who's been to 6 Karate lessons :)

So back to my points:

Bridging is in all the styles for sure.
As a CMA believer I still feel that close range is as important as Jake posted.

And I also think that CMA has techniques for this, which someone else just posted too.

[RandyBrown]

Oso - I believe I stated clearly that this was "our definition" of 'Bridging'. Which was in line with Earth Dragon's. No need to argue semantics as I was answering his post not starting a war of words. Every style, system, school, lineage has their own terms for things that are unique to them. I apologize if this was unclear.

Jake - excellent comments as usual and thanks for your input!

Tainan Mantis - you are 100% correct - These tactics I spoke of are not CMA in nature. We took a few of our bridging strategies from CMA but most are not discussed, taught, or shown in CMA and were taken from other styles and systems to improve our Mantis. We are strong proponents of the idea Jake mentions - bring your systems into the present or they will be outdated and lack usefulness in modern hand-to-hand combat.

If something will improve your skill would you not want to adopt it? Most CMA styles are hybrids after all and were constantly being refined for usefulness up till the age of ballistic combat taking precedence. There was a great article in Classical Fighting Arts titled - "The moon always shines brighter on the other side of the world." The article went on to say that the Chinese were trying to scoff up and translate manuals, learn training techniques, etc. of Western Boxing when they first encountered it. Why stop the ball rolling?

Redfish - you raise some interesting points and you are correct, the average altercation on the street will not require such high degrees of skill. I however counter you with the following food for thought - would you rather train for the lowest possible skill level and need more, or train for the highest possible skill level and need only 30% of what you have?

Randy Brown

[MightyB]

Years ago, I was introduced to the idea of using skilled footwork to get into hand to hand range. The idea wasn't to simply walk in straight- it was a circling approach we called Ja Bo (sp?). My Sigung had us practice this every day in class- we nicknamed it walking the circle- the ideal range we'd go for was a distance of approximately two but no more than three hand lengths from our opponent.

The main component of "linking" IMO is tu sau "intercepting hand". Used correctly and in conjunction with other techniques- you can move from outside to inside or vice versa, set up throws and locks, overcome a defensive move, or tangle you're opponents arms. You can also use it to step out of a clinch if you initiate it before the clinch is fully locked in.

[mantis108]

I believe the following clip is the range and idea of bridging.

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=DVFUgdfFGRg

The blindfolded person is a Wing Chun practitioner. You will notice the Bang Shou that is distinctive to the Wing Chun style. His opponent is a mantis stylist whom I believe has been training HK 7 Star and a bit of TCPM. He is basically using moves from the Zhan Nian drill. Most of the time he is sticking to the outside and upper gates. Since this is practice only, you will notice that it is quite one dimensional albeit free flowing. This type of practice is great to hone a certain skill and sharpen an aspect of hand to hand combat but is not the be all end all training.

Mantis108

[Oso]

RB: i wasn't argueing semantics...pointing out that we didn't need to argue semantics being that most all chinese names for moves/techniques are very colloquial in nature and that 'bridging' is an american colloquialism for the idea and fits both definitions.

[Three Harmonies]

I wonder if those guys ever heard of "hooks" or "body shots?"
:D

[Tainan Mantis]

Masters Adopting Foreign Methods
While I trained with my shifu in Taiwan I noticed that he not only continually spent time searching out new techniques from masters of CMA, but other non CMA styles eg. such as Judo and boxing.

He would talk to us about the differences and similarities, something that my shifu Art D also did. Differences and similarities was they key point.

I think that is great!
(Jake made a good point on learning from other styles)
Mostly what they did was use this new knowledge in order to look at their mantis through a different mirror, such as how others deal with neck grabs and locks...and we all learned from this.


Mantis Concepts
On the other hand, if bridging is some sort of contact activity where does it fit within all the exisiting concepts of Mantis, such as contact and clinging of the arms as well as pasting and leaning of the body?

Mantis has a lot of different keywords and concepts, can't any of them be used to describe what you are trying to accomplish in bridging?

Kevin

[sanjuro_ronin]

Masters Adopting Foreign Methods
While I trained with my shifu in Taiwan I noticed that he not only continually spent time searching out new techniques from masters of CMA, but other non CMA styles eg. such as Judo and boxing.

He would talk to us about the differences and similarities, something that my shifu Art D also did. Differences and similarities was they key point.

I think that is great!
(Jake made a good point on learning from other styles)
Mostly what they did was use this new knowledge in order to look at their mantis through a different mirror, such as how others deal with neck grabs and locks...and we all learned from this.

It seems that many older masters are more open to learning than many newer ones.
Its so vital to familiarize ourselves with the tools of other MA, other MA that we may someday meet in combat.

[MightyB]

There's some guy asking questions about forms apps that got me thinking about this thread...

When you really think about it- all the movements, apps, and such from the forms are in response to somebody attacking you. I can't think of one that is a lead--- I'm thinking of bridging in the sense of originating an attack- but, when you get right down to it, Mantis, and I'm assuming most Shaolin originated arts, are defensive. Maybe this has something to do with Buddhist roots-

When somebody attacks- the act of attacking creates a bridge for the Mantis guy's defense. In theory- a fight between two Mantis masters should really be two guys standing in their fighting stances staring at each other.

[TaichiMantis]

There's some guy asking questions about forms apps that got me thinking about this thread...

When you really think about it- all the movements, apps, and such from the forms are in response to somebody attacking you. I can't think of one that is a lead--- I'm thinking of bridging in the sense of originating an attack- but, when you get right down to it, Mantis, and I'm assuming most Shaolin originated arts, are defensive. Maybe this has something to do with Buddhist roots-

When somebody attacks- the act of attacking creates a bridge for the Mantis guy's defense. In theory- a fight between two Mantis masters should really be two guys standing in their fighting stances staring at each other.


huh? not the mantis I learn.:rolleyes:

[RandyBrown]

Kevin and others,


I think your teacher was in line with what I have also been doing for the past 30 years though he has been doing it much longer. Having to use my art on a regular basis, forced me to have to contend with a number of issues that were not addressed in CMA - mainly boxers, Thai Boxers and Wrestlers. I looked at a number of systems and saw how they addressed all aspects of martial arts. I then looked for the concept in my art. In most cases I was able to find the same tactic or one superior in Mantis. Having said that, there were some areas of fighting that CMA and mantis had failed to evolve. In those cases I found methods of adding to my art so that it was consistent with the rest of the system and did not conflict with techniques or principles of Mantis.


Not right or wrong, but some look at the art as a relic to be preserved and some as a living thing to me maintained. I would like to think that I am in line with Wong Long’s original idea of evolution for the sake of making it more effective.


Now that takes us back to Bridging, I found the only principle in mantis was to “contact, cling”. To reach out (seek a bridge) and touch the enemies arms to gain reference and know or feel when to move in. I found this to be a good tactic but wrestlers and boxers in most cases will not let you establish arm contact, nor will they maintain it. So how do they bridge? At a basic level through fakes and feints. Later they use other tactics mentioned in my first post. To not add or at least gain understanding of these methods will make you vulnerable to a growing population of reality based martial artist.



Tony Puyot

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kevin and others,


I think your teacher was in line with what I have also been doing for the past 30 years though he has been doing it much longer. Having to use my art on a regular basis, forced me to have to contend with a number off issues that were not addressed in CMA, mainly boxers, Thai Boxers and wresters. I looked at a number of systems and saw how they addressed all aspects of martial art. I then looked for the concept in my art. In most cases I was able to find the same tactic or one superior in Mantis. Having said that, there were some areas of fighting that CMA and mantis had failed to evolve in. In those cases I found methods of adding to my art so that it was consistent with the rest of the system and did not conflict with techniques or principles of Mantis.


Not right or wrong but some look at the art as a relic to be preserved and some as a living thing to me maintained. I would like to think that I am in line with Wong Long’s original idea of evolution for the sake of making it more effective.


Now that takes us back to Bridging, I found the only principles in mantis was to “contact, cling”. To reach out (seek a bridge) and touch the enemies arms to gain reference and know or feel when to move in. I found this to be a good tactic but wrestlers and boxers in most cases will not let you establish arm contact nor will they maintain it. So how do they bridge, at a basic level through fakes and faints. Later they use other tactics mentioned in my first post. To not add or at least gain understudying of these methods will make you vulnerable to a growing population of reality based martial artist.



Tony Puyot

Excellent post.

[mkriii]

when you say bridging, do you mean closing the gap? If so then I agree with what someone erlier mentioned and that was using the backfist while moving forward and then following that with several other strikes such as reverse punch to the solar plex or ridge hand to the face area (otherwise known as a blitz) or whatever suites the situation. The two follow ups after the backfist were more for tournament comp. but you could follow up with more devastating and practical techniques for the streets.

[MightyB]

huh? not the mantis I learn.:rolleyes:

Actually that's good because that's what I've found to be lacking in traditional schools (non sport styles). The idea of the person initiating the attack to win. Most traditional arts use the "If/then" approach. You know "If he punches, kicks, grabs, dives, pushes then you ...." system of teaching.

I'm not the only one who found this- heck BL tm. created a whole new martial art based around the idea of systematically teaching how to attack.

Personally I'd like to see more attacking with the intention of demolishing the opponent- like kick the guy in the shin while punching his nose, and while his vision is obscurred, steal his peach... or, after you see him checking out yo' woman at the bar- wait till his back is to you, punch his kidney, focus your weight to you shin and use your shin to drive his knee towards the floor, secure his wrist, and slam his face into something hard.

[TaichiMantis]

Actually that's good because that's what I've found to be lacking in traditional schools (non sport styles). The idea of the person initiating the attack to win. Most traditional arts use the "If/then" approach. You know "If he punches, kicks, grabs, dives, pushes then you ...." system of teaching.

I'm not the only one who found this- heck BL tm. created a whole new martial art based around the idea of systematically teaching how to attack.

Personally I'd like to see more attacking with the intention of demolishing the opponent- like kick the guy in the shin while punching his nose, and while his vision is obscurred, steal his peach... or, after you see him checking out yo' woman at the bar- wait till his back is to you, punch his kidney, focus your weight to you shin and use your shin to drive his knee towards the floor, secure his wrist, and slam his face into something hard.


In fact that's what a mantis does; decieves, then demolishes through soft targets:D

[mkriii]

Another favorite of mine for bridging is a rear leg thai roundhouse kick to the back of the other persons thigh. From there you can get in close enough to get into a clinch position or follow the kick up with elbow strikes and/or knee strikes. But if done right the Thai kick should drop them like a sack of potatoes. It's like giving someone a "frog" right on the muscle. Remember giving people "frogs" when you were younger in high school? It hurts like hell.

[Three Harmonies]

Good post Tony via Randy!
So where does Jiao (Calling) come into play with your philosophy? As I understand it jiao is used to ellict a response, then once contact is made then you have zhan (contact). From their you can nian (stick) etc.
Thanks
Jake :)

[RandyBrown]

Good post Tony via Randy!
So where does Jiao (Calling) come into play with your philosophy? As I understand it jiao is used to ellict a response, then once contact is made then you have zhan (contact). From their you can nian (stick) etc.
Thanks
Jake :)

Jake and others,


Thanks for the positive comments. “Jiao” (calling) is what I term setting a trap. I think your term is more in line with CMA so I may barrow it. Basically it is the opposite of you bridging. The key hear is that you control when they bridge and what targets they attack. By crating a false opening you solicit an attack to that target and are prepared to counter. Just to be clear, a false opening is a target that looks unprotected but there is back up plan to protect it.


Just an Example: You shift forward and drop your guard a bit to expose your head. When the enemy attacks he knows he will land a punch before you can raise your guard. But you shifted forward in your stance but did not make it obvious, so you shift back and out of range and counter an over extended enemy.


If you just drop the hands you have created a real opening. If they think you might be able to get your hands back in place in time to defend then it is not such an inviting trap.


One of the specifically “mantis” principles that addresses this but like in most cases in CMA fails to explain in detail is the Rigid principle, “When greeting the enemy counter with a strait line attack”. In most translation it just reads using strait line attacks but the greeting line is critical as it indicates the enemy is moving in. My slang for this is, “Set them up and when they come in take them out with a reverse punch”.


I think this is what you were asking?


Respect to all,


Tony Puyot

[Tainan Mantis]

Tony,
Great Post.
Some very good points that were clearly made.

"I found methods of adding to my art so that it was consistent with the rest of the system and did not conflict with techniques or principles of Mantis."


"Wong Long’s original idea of evolution for the sake of making it more effective."

"To not add or at least gain understanding of these methods will make you vulnerable to a growing population of reality based martial artist."


Kevin