how do you do things defferently? [Archive]

LSWCTN1

06-27-2008, 05:55 AM

KPM

06-27-2008, 07:10 AM

Welcome David!

i wanted to know about the rarer components of your systems, the things that are never (or even not often) seen in the most popular form of WC, Ip Man branch

---First, I break the material into San Sik rather than concentrating on the longer linked sets. Each San Sik is practiced in the air first stationary and then with various footwork. Each San Sik is practiced on the dummy. Each San Sik has a two-man drill associated with it and it eventually incorporated into Chi Sao and sparring. Finally, each San Sik is practiced with the Butterfly knives. All of this means that a student is working on the dummy and with the knives very early in the curriculum rather than waiting for a year or more before being introduced to them.

i
what other treasures are unique to your wing chun system, or what things do you do in your lineage that you rarely see elsewhere -

----I incorporate use of the tactical folder as a more modern weapon, and as a way to give the empty-hand techniques more "flow." Not all, but many of the San Sik translate to use of the tactical folder.

im sure there are many, many more. i'm interested about EVERY wc lineage and would like to hear about the authentic wing chun tools, as i know many branches have incorporated outside influences

---The outside influence I have incorporated is a "Mantis" flavor to what I do, and some of the structure and biomechanics I use reflect this.

LoneTiger108

06-27-2008, 12:48 PM

i was inspired by what i read about the 'plum flower post jong' from LoneTiger & HardWork8, and the questions regarding the kicking form from my own, Lee Shing, lineage

Nice to see another Family member here! Thanks for the comment :eek: you may be the ONLY one who feels inspired by my ramblings.

Personally, I was introduced to this method quite early on in training as I had a bad knee condition from too much football as a kid! The jong helped me to develop the strength back in my legs before I could really start anything else.

FWIW I have never seen any other people train the wooden man like we did at Jun Mo, even from within the Lee Family itself. It was used like a 'cruise control' of a car, maintaining a certain speed and flow. The noise was mad too and musical sometimes! It helped to build confidence as your arms and legs beacame wood themselves. All further training grew from this experience and I wouldn't be who I am today without it imho.

Later, we used to jump up onto the top of the wooden man and practise a 'single-leg' SLT. For anyone who wants to feel 'chi' and why the lwr dantien is so important just jump up there! The swallowing Crane comes to mind ;) and then the flying crane to leap off!!

I was a little more crazy in those days...

All politics aside, definately no Matis required! :D Sorry KFM! I couldn't help myself!

Tom Kagan

06-27-2008, 12:58 PM

what other treasures are unique to your wing chun system, or what things do you do in your lineage that you rarely see elsewhere

Nothing.

"Ving Tsun is nothing special. Now stop annoying me. Go do nothing special."
-- Moy Yat.

Matrix

06-27-2008, 05:03 PM

Nothing.

"Ving Tsun is nothing special. Now stop annoying me. Go do nothing special."
-- Moy Yat.Tom's correct, IMO. There is nothing new under the sun.

Bill

anerlich

06-27-2008, 05:04 PM

Matrix

06-27-2008, 05:06 PM

Flying armbars on the dummy. I stand corrected. :p

JPinAZ

06-27-2008, 05:21 PM

HFY has several forms I haven't seen/heard of elsewhere. Wouldn't call them 'new', but probably unique from what I can tell.

One is the Wing Chun Formula. This is a form broken up into 6 short sections. What this form teaches is proper structures & very specific reference points for positioning your weapons in front of you (trains HFY's Sup Ming Dim, or 10 Bright Points). Along with the reference points, it also focuses on many key concepts concepts such as C.Line, 2-Line, 5-line, 4-gate, 6-gate, Heaven/Human/Earth, etc.

Another is the Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin which trains one how to engage an opponent 360 degrees around them. It trains 5 footworks, 4 hand methods and 8 directions.

There is also the Keun Jong Dip Gwat Gung for training bone, muscles and tendons, along with proper energy focus and use of ging.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for?

LSWCTN1

06-27-2008, 05:27 PM

JPinAZ

thats exactly the sort of thing i have been looking for, at what point during your learning do these things come into play? how are they done and what do they achieve?

this was the sort of thing i have been looking for!

JPinAZ

06-30-2008, 08:41 AM

It's going to be difficult to answer the 'how it's done' questions without actual video to post, but I will try to give a little more insight into each of the forms.

How I see it, the Wing Chun Formula, can be taught either early on in one's training, and/or as a supplement to their training as needed. It is a good way to check and refine a students structural and concept awareness as well as help the initially train and understand them. Most of the form (the first 5 mini-sections) are trained in YJKYM stance, the 6th has footwork and 2 basic kicks added.
Besides all of them training the Sup Ming Dim reference points for structure, the first trains CL concepts. The second trains the 2-line concept (inner and outer door/gates). The third trains the 3 height reference points for the hands on center (heaven/human/earth in 4-gate) and proper elbow position. The 4th teaches the 4 upper gates and the bounds of the 'box' where the hands can move furthest from center and up/down while still having equal reach. The 5th teaches about 5 width lines across the body for proper structure and hand/arm positioning (5-line theory). The 6th introduces the lower 2 gates, teaching 6-gate theory. This is where the feet are now opened and two kicks are introduce drawing the bounds of the lower 2 gates along with the hands demonstrating the upper 4 gates.

Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin is a form that teaches us how to move, face & engage our opponent from all angles. This form can initially be used as a warm up drill to get the body ready for training and also has it's own modules for better understanding the concepts behind it.
When just looking at footwork, it teaches forward and backward stepping, how face 90 degrees to the left and right (the second actually becomes 180 degrees once you've turned to the left), how to move side-to-side while still facing and tracking your opponent when he moves, and also how to engage someone behind us.
The hand methods are biu jong, kiu jong, ton kiu and yat da wan yun. Bascially, how to occupy space, sweep your gates (clear space) or cycle through center using 2-line concept.

The third form I mentioned is a bit more involved and more difficult for me to explain, but it focuses on training elbow wrist and finger energies, bone grinding methods and tools for strengthening the skin, muscles, tendons and bones.
When I was taught this form, it was used prior to learning Tann/Bong/Fook Dui Ying chi sau, but I've found it to be a great form to run through in the morning. It really seems to get me charged up and 'ready to go'! :)

Ok, gotta run. It's tough talking forms without visual aids, but hopefully this helped a little more. Feel free to ask any questions you might have!

Jonathan

monji112000

06-30-2008, 09:07 AM

Flying armbars on the dummy.

We have form, dummy and chi sao variations that work out of a front stance rather than a parallel or side neutral stance. We have an SLT with footwork.

Outside influences are Hock Hochheim style knife and baton work, and Brazilan Jiu Jitsu. Or school is a Machado affiliate.

ha flying armbar on the dummy thats kids stuff.. what about a flying omoplata on the dummy? try transitioning to twister side when the thing rolls out.. man does i hurt when you land on those arms..

HardWork8

07-01-2008, 09:42 PM

In Siu Lam Wing Chun we practice a great amount of chi kung. Towards the end of Chum Kiu ground fighting techniques, based on Wing Chun principles are introduced to the student.

Iron Palm practice includes hitting the sand bucket in a SHAOLIN horse stance,while special attention is paid to correct breathing during strikes.

Tiger Claw techniques applied within WC principles are also introduced to advanced students.

The chi sao practice includes Kum La chi sao and a very close(elbow) range chi sao where the emphasis is on the use of elbows.

In time all the different types of chi sao are combined and eventually evolve into full on sparring (San Sa).

These are just some possible differences from other lineages.

Mr Punch

07-01-2008, 11:57 PM

Flying armbars on the dummy.Wuss! We have the double leg in our dummy! First you gotta split its leg in two with a sidekick!

Mr Punch

07-01-2008, 11:58 PM

In Siu Lam Wing Chun we practice a great amount of chi kung. Towards the end of Chum Kiu ground fighting techniques, based on Wing Chun principles are introduced to the student. ...I think these chum kiu ground fighting techs would be fairly unique to your system too. Any footage?

Vajramusti

07-02-2008, 08:28 AM

It will be tough to get a comptrehensive answer to your question by chatting on KFO. Victor did a good job explaining TWC in multiple posts on KFO quite some time back.I am sure the wing chun pedia essay is also good.

But wingchunpedia and websites are not likely to give you a good sample on wing chun. Lots of good people dont send in essays to those kinds of sites or books either.Some of the best people I know don't bother with internet chats. Not a critique-just a fact.

I am likely to do wc quite differently from you. A good friend got started with Lee Shing and Joseph Cheng. I have seen Goh's videos and that of another well or even better known person in the Lee Shing line (I forget his name at this moment). My friend also learned from Paul Lam of the Leung Shun line and the Lam
approach was differnt from the Lee Shing approach.

I do a wing chun version desceneded from Ip man via one of his best students-Ho Kam Ming-one of whose best students Augustine Fong is my sifu. Each person's wing chun has some differences in flavor as they evolve.Some of my essays on my website at<www.tempewingchun.com> will perhapsgive you an idea on similarities and differences.

Among key differences-1. structure
2. stance-no sidebody
3. pole usage-holding and handling different from Goh's

good wishes, joy chaudhuri

HardWork8

07-02-2008, 09:57 AM

I think these chum kiu ground fighting techs would be fairly unique to your system too. Any footage?

I am afraid that as yet there is no footage. However, some Wing Chun ground fighting was demonstrated in a recent seminar here in London by my sifu, who was visiting from Brasil, and I believe that at least 2 members of this forum, from the Lee Shing lineage, were present at that event.

Perhaps they can add their take on the WC groundfighting and the seminar in general.

LoneTiger108

07-02-2008, 10:58 AM

... I believe that at least 2 members of this forum, from the Lee Shing lineage, were present at that event.

Perhaps they can add their take...

As I've mentioned before, what I saw was quite impressive. Having, or exploring, groundfighting as an element to your WCK is fine and these guys have a solid root in Shaolin so it really was just a reflection of that imo. How to take your concepts to the floor seems to work quite easily, especially if you have solid legwork, although we may never be as thorough as some who spend ALL their time on the floor.

I guess this really boils down to defining exactly what is and isn't classified these days as Wing Chun.

I personally don't like to put us all into a box, and I would say openly to people that if you do 'develop' your ground tactics be sure to remember the character of the snake! We covered plently of sitting and kneeling work at a very early stage, so I guess this may be something different too.

Previous teachers and practitioners may never had felt the 'need' to go to the floor but I guess these days are very different...

sanjuro_ronin

07-02-2008, 11:16 AM

Previous teachers and practitioners may never had felt the 'need' to go to the floor but I guess these days are very different...

You got that right.

HardWork8

07-02-2008, 12:13 PM

As I've mentioned before, what I saw was quite impressive. Having, or exploring, groundfighting as an element to your WCK is fine and these guys have a solid root in Shaolin so it really was just a reflection of that imo. How to take your concepts to the floor seems to work quite easily, especially if you have solid legwork, although we may never be as thorough as some who spend ALL their time on the floor.

I guess this really boils down to defining exactly what is and isn't classified these days as Wing Chun.

I personally don't like to put us all into a box, and I would say openly to people that if you do 'develop' your ground tactics be sure to remember the character of the snake! We covered plently of sitting and kneeling work at a very early stage, so I guess this may be something different too.

Previous teachers and practitioners may never had felt the 'need' to go to the floor but I guess these days are very different...

Speaking solely from the Siu Lam Wing Chun point of view, ground fighting has always been part of this lineage.

It is not a modern addition and uses the Wing Chun concepts and principles together with the required techniques (hand strikes, kicks and Chin- na) to subdue the adversary.

I do believe that those practicioners who believe that for whatever reason, they are more likely to face adversaries with a "ground game", can go on to place more emphasis on the groundfighting aspects of Wing Chun. However, other aspects of this rich art have to be trained to a high level.

For example, what would be the point of tigerclawing an adversary's throat on the ground if the claw does not have the power to do damage!

As far as being put in the box is concerned, it seems that unfortunately and more often than not, it is other Wing Chun practitioners who put us in a box and the minute they see something different, they start screaming at the top of their voices:confused:

I know that you and I both have been through this many times before.:)

LSWCTN1

07-02-2008, 02:00 PM

[QUOTE=Among key differences-1. structure
2. stance-no sidebody
3. pole usage-holding and handling different from Goh's
[/QUOTE]

Hi Joy, thank you for the response - my lineage is also through Lee Shing/Joseph Cheng and i have noticed on another thread you mentioning the difference between Paul Lam and Joseph Cheng. Mr. Lam must have been one hell of a student!

i think that one person’s expression of wing chun may well be completely different from another’s, even within the same lineage. it is their own, personal, kung fu (props to hardwork8's sifu for that-i like the saying a lot). however the question i was posing was along the lines of components of the systems, rather than how the system is expressed

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.Components - this is mostly what i was referring to. Ho Kam Ming is a true master and you must feel privileged to be a part of that lineage, as I am mine.

I know that the side (or slant) body we employ at times is a relatively rare way of doing things in the wing chun world,

Although i have never seen it, from the stories & history of TWC as i have read it, i would have thought that they employ slant body more so than some other Ip Man WC, as this was the 'other' side to Leung Jans wing chun

this thread is starting to pick up pace now - thanks for all the answers everybody. This is the sort of discussion i was hoping for!

Vajramusti

07-02-2008, 04:54 PM

I have no problem with the diversity in WC. Good luck with yours.

joy chaudhuri

Lee Chiang Po

07-02-2008, 09:21 PM

Vajramusti

07-02-2008, 09:49 PM

Jap jujitsu
-------------------------
(sic)/ Good grief.

joy chaudhuri

anerlich

07-02-2008, 10:18 PM

Yet one of the fighters will usually spend most of the fight on his back, unable to escape.

Counterexamples:

Allen Goes vs Kazushi Sakuraba (one of the earlier Prides)

Renzo Gracie vs Oleg Taktarov (going back a long way, but still)

Antonio Inoki vs Muhammad Ali (laugh, but Inoki didn't get hit and you can bet Ali's legs were bruised as all hell).

A guy in my MMA class who won his last MMA fight by triangle choke, along with a cast of thousands who have done the same (or used armbars, armbar triangles, guillotine chokes, got the back and choked them out, etc etc) all over the world over more than a decade (if you count Vale Tudo, several decades).

TWC has had groundfighting in it for a long time. So have other styles of KF (and WC, no doubt). I had my first groundfighting lesson from a KF teacher in 1977. A lot of it was not dissimilar to (some of) what Goes did in the aforementioned match above.

I don't care if you're jujitsu comers form Japan, Brazil, or Mars. If a good ground and pound guy gets mount or side control on you, you are in deep trouble and will need lots of luck to escape. Most of the skilful fighting on the bottom is done from the guard, which is what TWC does as well, though it is a very rudimentary guard and it's not called that anyway.

But the aims of TWC ground fighting is to keep the guy away so you can get back up, or hurt him if he gets close and does something stupid like putting his head or shin inside kicking range. The aims of BJJ and MMA are very different.

I would venture to say that Mui Thai has probably killed more people than guns.

I doubt that MT has killed more people than guns did in various world wars and more recent regional conflicts.

Mr Punch

07-02-2008, 10:21 PM

When we compare WC to other ground fighting we are not usually making a fair comparison. In watching the MMA fights on TV I have seen them billed and introduced as Jujitsu, Mui Thai, kung fu, Karate, and just about every other form of fighting skill. Yet one of the fighters will usually spend most of the fight on his back, unable to escape. These guys are trained to this, and it seems that no system holds up. I keep watching and expecting the guy to do something that is some semblence of MA skill in making his escape, but it don't ever happen. If he escapes it is in the form of some sort of squirming or something.1) You don't know what you're looking at.
2) These people are both trained so that should the fight go to ground, they can finish it there if necessary. While some obviously look for these positions, the main reason these people appear to be doing nothing is because they have a good idea what will get them submitted. It's like chess: they wait, they seemingly do nothing, and when they do you don't know the point... then they win. If a skilled chess-player plays someone who doesn't know much chess, the match will be a lot quicker and more decisive and you'll be able to see his skill level in say the five moves it takes for him to get checkmate. In the same way, if you put someone with no ground experience against a top-flight jujutsuka, they'll be done in a flash (time and movement!).

BTW, in case you missed the last 15 years this has been proven again and again by the number of people who've challenged Gracies and many other top grapplers and lost (inc blackbelts from countless other arts), the number of matches of highly trained fighters in the UFC, Pride, Shooto and other promotions which have a higher proportion of submission wins than stand-up and the huge number of top artists in many stand-up arts who advocate doing some kind of groundfighting style to supplement their main arts. You are in a minority of people who refuse to see this.

3) 'Some sort of squirming...' LOL... do you mean shrimping? Do you mean one of the countless sweep variations? Do you mean bridging? This proves you don't know what you're looking at: there's the martial skill right there... if you don't agree, YOU go and lie under a BJJ blackbelt/wrestler and see if you can get out with or without squirming... :rolleyes:

... I would venture to say that Mui Thai has probably killed more people than guns. I would venture you're talking out your arse there.

Some systems will have stronger ground fighting techniques...Wing chun is not one of them.

If you are involved in an altercation with someone that is not a ring fighter or trained MA fighter you will be able to escape most any attack where you are tossed to the ground.Really? I'd bet your average gym rat with a drunken bum tackle, any rugby player and half of the plain nasty b astards I've met against any of the chunners I've met, on the ground. Part of the reason being chunners' enormous egos as demonstrated by 90% of your posts (and mine :D ) and partly because wing chun's groundfighting, throws and takedowns, from what I've seen has been crap. And I've seen a lot of wing chun lines. Now, if you, or HW8 have the real wing chun groundfighting, I'd love to see some of it against a non-chunner in a non-compliant situation. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just saying it's not likely to be much use.

Can't believe the chun 'community' are still going round in these circles... Nah... I can.

...Jap jujitsu...I find it hard to believe you don't know that this is an offensive expression... which makes you a pr!ck.

unkokusai

07-02-2008, 10:28 PM

1) You don't know what you're looking at.
2) These people are both trained so that should the fight go to ground, they can finish it there if necessary. While some obviously look for these positions, the main reason these people appear to be doing nothing is because they have a good idea what will get them submitted. It's like chess: they wait, they seemingly do nothing, and when they do you don't know the point... then they win. If a skilled chess-player plays someone who doesn't know much chess, the match will be a lot quicker and more decisive and you'll be able to see his skill level in say the five moves it takes for him to get checkmate. In the same way, if you put someone with no ground experience against a top-flight jujutsuka, they'll be done in a flash (time and movement!).

BTW, in case you missed the last 15 years this has been proven again and again by the number of people who've challenged Gracies and many other top grapplers and lost (inc blackbelts from countless other arts), the number of matches of highly trained fighters in the UFC, Pride, Shooto and other promotions which have a higher proportion of submission wins than stand-up and the huge number of top artists in many stand-up arts who advocate doing some kind of groundfighting style to supplement their main arts. You are in a minority of people who refuse to see this.

3) 'Some sort of squirming...' LOL... do you mean shrimping? Do you mean one of the countless sweep variations? Do you mean bridging? This proves you don't know what you're looking at: there's the martial skill right there... if you don't agree, YOU go and lie under a BJJ blackbelt/wrestler and see if you can get out with or without squirming... :rolleyes:

I would venture you're talking out your arse there.

Wing chun is not one of them.

Really? I'd bet your average gym rat with a drunken bum tackle, any rugby player and half of the plain nasty b astards I've met against any of the chunners I've met, on the ground. Part of the reason being chunners' enormous egos as demonstrated by 90% of your posts (and mine :D ) and partly because wing chun's groundfighting, throws and takedowns, from what I've seen has been crap. And I've seen a lot of wing chun lines. Now, if you, or HW8 have the real wing chun groundfighting, I'd love to see some of it against a non-chunner in a non-compliant situation. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just saying it's not likely to be much use.

Can't believe the chun 'community' are still going round in these circles... Nah... I can.

I find it hard to believe you don't know that this is an offensive expression... which makes you a pr!ck.

That was an excellent post right there!

LSWCTN1

07-03-2008, 03:02 AM

not necessarily sticking up for anyone here - but Wang Kui only had 2.5 years with Ip Man by his own admission - and he was/is **** good!

his sifu when i met him was a well above average wc man and very welcoming. Fung Sui Ching lineage if i remember correctly? his students i met (although hardwork8 wasnt there) seemed to have a good grasp of wc and could use it - not alway that common

there is also Moy Yat and HFY lineage in brazil - its not exactly weak WC is it?

LSWCTN1

07-03-2008, 05:31 AM

i have never met hardwork8, although i have met his sifu - i think perhaps contempt breeds contempt. i dont know (or care) started it and im not taking any sides as i dont know the reasons behind the argument(s).

just because things cannot be proven on paper do not make them untrue... Leung Bik?

i know his sifu had a deep knowledge of kung fu in general and wing chun in particular. and i was relatively impressed by what i saw during the 6hours i spent with him.

anyway....

keep the different components coming, im finding it facinating!

sanjuro_ronin

07-03-2008, 05:44 AM

I have no issues with his Sifu, nor his system of WC.

As for his Sifu, I have met many WC sifu and I have liked them all and respected them all, yes even Emin, LOL.
Fact is WC is a wonderful system that I enjoyed and still use certain parts to this very day.
It just has many flakes, like all other MA it seems.

As for doing thing differently, we all do, that's were styles come from.
As for ground fighting in WC, sure it has it, every system has it, are they comprable to system that specialize in it?
No, and any person that tells you differently truly has no idea.
Can they be "good enough"?
One must ask good enough for whom?

As for cross training, we had a thread about it and the vast majority have done it for geographical reasons , myself included and other to work on certain specilaizations (like ground work and submissions) that are lacking in our core system.
Fact is, if you want to work on a highly specialized skill set, you must seek out a system that specializes in it, it is common sense.

anerlich

07-03-2008, 02:40 PM

nothing but GLORIFIED KICKBOXERS!

You could do a lot worse than to be a kickboxer, glorified or otherwise.

HardWork8

07-03-2008, 08:43 PM

Firstly, can i point out that i am merely posing this question for my own, personal interests. I AM NOT TROLLING!

Secondly, please no politics, i just want a good old fashioned discussion

Thirdly, please take it easy on me its my first post!

i wanted to know about the rarer components of your systems, the things that are never (or even not often) seen in the most popular form of WC, Ip Man branch

i was inspired by what i read about the 'plum flower post jong' from LoneTiger & HardWork8, and the questions regarding the kicking form from my own, Lee Shing, lineage

what other treasures are unique to your wing chun system, or what things do you do in your lineage that you rarely see elsewhere - winghunpedia.org (a fantastic site by the way ;)) lists some rare components but they are in red and you cannot yet read about them.

for example, with the plum flower post jong, at what point in the system do you start to learn it? how is it used? what is it used for? what do you hope to acheive when you learn it? (i think i know the answers to this one - but i was using that as an example)

a few i can think of off the top of my head are the 3.5 point pole, the ratten rings, the hong jong, the tripodial dummy, bamboo dummy etc etc

im sure there are many, many more. i'm interested about EVERY wc lineage and would like to hear about the authentic wing chun tools, as i know many branches have incorporated outside influences

regards

David

Oh I forgot, here are a few punching techniques that may or may not be unique to the Siu Lam lineage.

1.We have a Yang twisting punch that targets the stomack and the bladder area.

2.There is also an upper cut style punch with two variations that leaves the central line and targets the throan and the chin area. The variations are defined by wether the punch hits the target straight or wether it twists into the target.

3.There is another short range punch where the stomack/bladder area is targeted. This is a low level punch where the fist knuckles are facing the floor (palm facing up).

4. We also use the chain punch cycling upwards as well as downwards, depending on what is required.

I would be interested to know wether these type of punches (and others) are used in Lee Shing lineage (as well as other lineages eg. Yip Man).

HardWork8

07-03-2008, 09:15 PM

You could do a lot worse than to be a kickboxer, glorified or otherwise.
Not if you are practicing authentic kung fu, the way it is supposed to be practiced:) and not if your aim is to gain deeper understanding of kung fu and its internals.

However, if one's aim is to study is a mish mash of MAs and to learn to fight relatively quickly, then one could do a lot worse than become a kickboxer, but then one shouldn't make uninformed remarks about kung fu practice nor pretend to have more than a superficial understanding of it just because they practiced it together with a dozen mish mash of MA's.

LoneTiger108

07-04-2008, 12:17 PM

I would be interested to know wether these type of punches (and others) are used in Lee Shing lineage (as well as other lineages eg. Yip Man).

Well, trying to ignore all the insults aimed right atcha, we pretty much do all of what you mention HardWork8 ;) Different terms, but same actions.

As for the questions lkfmdc I only know the answer to one, as I've met HW8s Sifu and found him to be quite a humble and well researched individual. Not exactly my cuppa tea, but he was okay on the day as they say. His 'martial' name I'm not sure of but he's called Andria. Have you met him?

FWIW one of the guys at the seminar DID have 'some' grappling experience and really went to town on him but it didn't really affect his peaceful attitude and definately didn't hurt him. You ever heard of Iron Shirt? Y'know that hard stuff where you're abs are like steel!!?? He is a great specimen if you like that sort of thing and I saw at least four real big hits that just bounced off his body. Not to mention the numerous times he actually 'invited' the punches. No effect at all and with a little tweak here and there the other guy was wincing in pain. Shaolin linked? Definately imo.

As for secrets and mystery, this is why he probably can't be bothered to promote himself. To have students that brag of your skills when he obviously doesn't really 'want' them to will always cause conflict.

...Not if you are practicing authentic kung fu, the way it is supposed to be practiced and not if your aim is to gain deeper understanding of kung fu and its internals...
...but then one shouldn't make uninformed remarks about kung fu practice nor pretend to have more than a superficial understanding of it just because they practiced it together with a dozen mish mash of MA's.

This sort of chat doesn't help either. Words like 'authentic' died in the eighties especially in Wing Chun! HW8, your own Sifu IS the result of a 'mix mash' approach to Martial Arts as almost ALL Shaolin IS. Be real. How you make the connection to Wing Chun will always intrigue me (Jee Shim?) but I do see you more as a Shaolin family than a Wing Chun family, similar to Lee Shing (if it wasn't for his direct connection to Ip Man)

To be accepted in the family needs a little more tact sometimes and definately more 'open minded' discussion on your part, maybe then others will accept your provoking thoughts. Believe me I haven't had a smooth ride either here :o

If I was to start teaching under the guise of Shaolin I know more than a few people who would come knocking on my door. It's just a shame that people can't see that we all are still one family and be more accepting of peoples personal preferences. I'm just a simple Wing Chun student as are most people here.

Whatever shape your Wing Chun takes, it shouldn't really drift too much away from the core knowledge that Ip Man presented to the World.

HardWork8

07-04-2008, 08:02 PM

Well, trying to ignore all the insults aimed right atcha, we pretty much do all of what you mention HardWork8 ;) Different terms, but same actions.

As for the questions lkfmdc I only know the answer to one, as I've met HW8s Sifu and found him to be quite a humble and well researched individual. Not exactly my cuppa tea, but he was okay on the day as they say. His 'martial' name I'm not sure of but he's called Andria. Have you met him?

FWIW one of the guys at the seminar DID have 'some' grappling experience and really went to town on him but it didn't really affect his peaceful attitude and definately didn't hurt him. You ever heard of Iron Shirt? Y'know that hard stuff where you're abs are like steel!!?? He is a great specimen if you like that sort of thing and I saw at least four real big hits that just bounced off his body. Not to mention the numerous times he actually 'invited' the punches. No effect at all and with a little tweak here and there the other guy was wincing in pain. Shaolin linked? Definately imo.

As for secrets and mystery, this is why he probably can't be bothered to promote himself. To have students that brag of your skills when he obviously doesn't really 'want' them to will always cause conflict.

This sort of chat doesn't help either. Words like 'authentic' died in the eighties especially in Wing Chun! HW8, your own Sifu IS the result of a 'mix mash' approach to Martial Arts as almost ALL Shaolin IS. Be real. How you make the connection to Wing Chun will always intrigue me (Jee Shim?) but I do see you more as a Shaolin family than a Wing Chun family, similar to Lee Shing (if it wasn't for his direct connection to Ip Man)

To be accepted in the family needs a little more tact sometimes and definately more 'open minded' discussion on your part, maybe then others will accept your provoking thoughts. Believe me I haven't had a smooth ride either here :o

If I was to start teaching under the guise of Shaolin I know more than a few people who would come knocking on my door. It's just a shame that people can't see that we all are still one family and be more accepting of peoples personal preferences. I'm just a simple Wing Chun student as are most people here.

Whatever shape your Wing Chun takes, it shouldn't really drift too much away from the core knowledge that Ip Man presented to the World.

Great post and thank you :o.
The more you talk about your Lee Shing lineage the more I get fascinated by it. I wish I had discovered you guys earlier as I am about to leave London soon and probably wont have a chance for any serious training at a new school.:)

HardWork8

07-07-2008, 07:23 AM

Hello Spencer,
I would just like to address a few points quickly.

This sort of chat doesn't help either. Words like 'authentic' died in the eighties especially in Wing Chun!
When I use the word "authentic" its meaning is in line with the art's essence and not whose bong sao is better. By the same token one who does a chain punch and then follows it up with a Tae kwon do jumping kick that violates essential principles in Wing Chun is not doing authentic Wing Chun and should not pretend to be doing it.

And of course, in every walk of life one can come across the unauthentic versions of the authentic.

HW8, your own Sifu IS the result of a 'mix mash' approach to Martial Arts as almost ALL Shaolin IS.

Of course, however the mish mash was created by most part masters who knew how to accommodate various techniques/arts within the principles and ESSENCE of a single art.

Meaning that, and as you know, this arts are not a result of a hap hazzard mix up. One can recognize Wing Chun, (most)Praying Mantis, Tiger,etc. styles.

How you make the connection to Wing Chun will always intrigue me (Jee Shim?) but I do see you more as a Shaolin family than a Wing Chun family,
My sifu teaches Siu Lam Wing Chun and even the ground fighting falls within WC principles.

Of course the roots of this art (as all Wing Chun) are Shaolin and one should expect that a mainland lineage will perhaps reflect this fact slightly more. :)

I believe that during the London Seminar my sifu may however have cross referenced some of the techniques with Shaolin and that may have created some confusion as to what he teaches.

To be accepted in the family needs a little more tact sometimes and definately more 'open minded' discussion on your part,
Unfortunately it is difficult to have an openminded discussion with people who claim to practice WC but have no idea of this rich art's potential and believe modern cross training to be the beginning and the end for all things.

Some of these people don't let well thought out and organized concepts and principles get in the way of what they believe to be "functionality" or competition performance/medals.

maybe then others will accept your provoking thoughts.
Most of these people never will and that is because they follow "trends". Furthermore, because of their "modern" approach, they never look at any art in a profound way, however they may believe that they do.

Meaning that if the next UFC champion is a practitioner of mountain wrestling from the Himalayan Mountains, then that will be "The Art" that will be crosstrained with WC in so called Kwoons across the Western World. And they will give you a thousand reasons why it is superior to TCMA and so on.

Ok, then you might say, "To each, his own", and I would say fine. However, a kung fu newbie who enters these forums for advice does not need to be 'advised' that "kung fu forms are 'outdated' ";"Internal training is fantasy";"Modern is best"etc.etc.etc. by people who are jack of all trades and wouldn't know real kung fu if it fell on them.

The state of traditional kung fu is dire nowadays because of this so called "modern" approach to training.

Believe me I haven't had a smooth ride either here :o
It is your fault. You should have been practicing the Yip Man lineage and cross training it with Tae Kwon Do.;) :)

Then everyone here would love you:), everyone that is, except me:mad::)

If I was to start teaching under the guise of Shaolin I know more than a few people who would come knocking on my door.
Very true, but then making money out of teaching kung fu does not seem to be your priority otherwise, why stop at selling it as Shaolin when you can add the words "Street Effective" to Shaolin and include classes of Cambodian wrestling and Tae Kwon Do....LOL!

But, I believe that you will never do such a thing because it seems that just like my sifu, you have chosen your path and superficial commercial gains are not going to push you off it.:)

It's just a shame that people can't see that we all are still one family and be more accepting of peoples personal preferences.
Sometimes when there are $$$$$$'s involved, then unfortunately the family(as well as some Wing Chun) concepts goes out of the window.

HW8:)

LoneTiger108

07-07-2008, 10:21 AM

Great post and thank you :o.
The more you talk about your Lee Shing lineage the more I get fascinated by it. I wish I had discovered you guys earlier as I am about to leave London soon and probably wont have a chance for any serious training at a new school.:)

Thanks HW8 I just hope you're not too offended by my critical view! I think these places are great for us all to exchange and share ideas and I'd like to think that some of us WILL get together and train at least once after all this effort!

Of course, however the mish mash was created by most part masters who knew how to accommodate various techniques/arts within the principles and ESSENCE of a single art.

Meaning that, and as you know, this arts are not a result of a hap hazzard mix up. One can recognize Wing Chun, (most)Praying Mantis, Tiger,etc. styles.

I know what you're getting at with the MMA thing and I'm sure you're aware of Chinas stance on the 'one teacher' rule! They just don't promote it anyomore, so Martial Arts (Wushu) in China has been mixing it up for years. It;s actually this 'trend' that we're seeing today in the West!

Sooner or later the oldskool will be sought after again, but we have to be patient in these times and wait for the right time.

It's funny but I just posted a 'Jun Mo Wing Chun' thread on here yesterday asking for everyones opinions on what they can actually 'see' and nobody has replied yet or added anything to the discussion.

FWIW Maybe that is what I do differently? I haven't seen any Flags in anyones Wing Chun! Ip Man or not. Without the Flag what pole do you actually have?

HardWork8

07-09-2008, 06:15 PM

Thanks HW8 I just hope you're not too offended by my critical view!
Hey, I like constructive criticism.:)

I think these places are great for us all to exchange and share ideas and I'd like to think that some of us WILL get together and train at least once after all this effort!
Well I would like to but I am on my way out of the Uk soon and I have not organized my exit as well as I had hoped and I am running behind schedule. I believe that my kung fu brother will be more likely to make call you for a training meet. The last time I talked to him he was ready to fly out of the Uk even though he won't actually be leaving for a couple of months yet.

I hate organized people!!!:mad:

I know what you're getting at with the MMA thing and I'm sure you're aware of Chinas stance on the 'one teacher' rule! They just don't promote it anyomore, so Martial Arts (Wushu) in China has been mixing it up for years. It;s actually this 'trend' that we're seeing today in the West!

That may be true but the "I want it now" culture here does not help the situation either.
On the positive side there are masters in China who have organized to preserve the traditional kung fu. The grand master of our lineage, Leung Kit Chow is a current member of one such commission.

Sooner or later the oldskool will be sought after again, but we have to be patient in these times and wait for the right time.
My worry is the amount of old knowledge that has been lost from kung fu and my alarm bells ring even louder when I see a so called kung fu practitioner looking for answers in arts such as Tae kwon do.

It's funny but I just posted a 'Jun Mo Wing Chun' thread on here yesterday asking for everyones opinions on what they can actually 'see' and nobody has replied yet or added anything to the discussion.
I liked what I saw and found it interesting and made a comment to that effect. If I could have turned the clock back to a couple of years ago then I would sure have practiced your lineage of Wing Chun during my stay in London.:)

FWIW Maybe that is what I do differently? I haven't seen any Flags in anyones Wing Chun! Ip Man or not.
Sorry, I didn't understand that last bit. Are you talking about the school/lineage logo?

sanjuro_ronin

07-10-2008, 04:25 AM

I know what you're getting at with the MMA thing and I'm sure you're aware of Chinas stance on the 'one teacher' rule! They just don't promote it anyomore, so Martial Arts (Wushu) in China has been mixing it up for years. It;s actually this 'trend' that we're seeing today in the West!

Sooner or later the oldskool will be sought after again, but we have to be patient in these times and wait for the right time.

Which "old school" are you referring to?
The VAST majority of "old school" masters and their systems were more "cross trainers" than anything else.
I don't care much for MMA myself, other than a testing ground, but cross training was the bread n butter training method of the past.

LoneTiger108

07-10-2008, 12:00 PM

...My worry is the amount of old knowledge that has been lost from kung fu and my alarm bells ring even louder when I see a so called kung fu practitioner looking for answers in arts such as Tae kwon do...

I haven't got a problem with people individuality at all. Anyone who cross trains is only following their needs and good luck to them. Personally I've always found that having a giving teacher who is open to students training elsewhere often creates more dedicated people, especially if the foundation knowledge is strong.

...Sorry, I didn't understand that last bit. Are you talking about the school/lineage logo?

No, I was referring to the Flag Training that I endured whilst at Jun Mo. It is distinctively a 'Jun Mo' thing as I haven't seen any other family train with Flags at all. It's our basis for understanding the 6 point & half pole form and without this type of training I can't see how anyone can claim to even 'know' the pole thoroughly.

Again, it may just serve as a small piece of what I continue to train but the flag normally displays your school logo, your banner in a way, and it's a great addition to any public demonstration imo.

...Which "old school" are you referring to?

Sorry sanjuro, its just a 'slip of the type'! I guess I'm referring to the people I know who had direct contact with some of the older generations of Wing Chun. Everyone has a story, and most still carry with them the times of old.

I rarely see training these days that reflects what some of my older colleagues describe. Back in the seventies and eighties students had a very hard time, there were no quick fixes or demands of what 'I' want to learn! I'm sure that there are some people here who believe what they experienced 'back in the day' was very different to what most people expect to see and learn now.

This is the question, is it all 'really' that different? Or are we all just changing and adapting as we ought to, taking Wing Chun into a new era?

sanjuro_ronin

07-10-2008, 12:07 PM

Sorry sanjuro, its just a 'slip of the type'! I guess I'm referring to the people I know who had direct contact with some of the older generations of Wing Chun. Everyone has a story, and most still carry with them the times of old.

I rarely see training these days that reflects what some of my older colleagues describe. Back in the seventies and eighties students had a very hard time, there were no quick fixes or demands of what 'I' want to learn! I'm sure that there are some people here who believe what they experienced 'back in the day' was very different to what most people expect to see and learn now.

This is the question, is it all 'really' that different? Or are we all just changing and adapting as we ought to, taking Wing Chun into a new era?

Different people got different training even back then, way back then.
Heck, even more so when you came in from another system.
I remember my first WC lessons, I spent it learning with my back against the wall to get all those "silly boxing habits" out of my system. LOL !
Of course the Sifu also did ask me to teach some boxing to his students so they would understand the true danger a well trained boxer presents.
And the wooden dummy...man...while everyone else tapped it, he made me drill it like I meant it, why?
Because, and I quote, "you like to fight, you need this".

HardWork8

07-12-2008, 07:10 AM

I haven't got a problem with people individuality at all.
I don't either.:)

Anyone who cross trains is only following their needs and good luck to them.
I have the same attitude here. My problem is with people who cross train their kung fu with irrelevant arts with contradicting principles, thinking that they have discoverd the light, so to speak, going on to give "kung fu" advice.

Personally I've always found that having a giving teacher who is open to students training elsewhere often creates more dedicated people, especially if the foundation knowledge is strong.
My sifu is the same and that is why since I have been to London, I have trained in 2 different non-wing chun kung fu schools and with his full blessing.

That is because I am still training in kung fu styles that are not too different from Wing Chun and training them has actually IMPROVED my wing chun (rooting,power and the imprinting of some of the similar concepts/principles that take a liftime to perfect, eg. softness,not going back,etc.).

If I had decided to train in Bjj, Tae Kwon Do or Muay Thai, then I would not have gotten the same results as far as my kung fu path is concerned.

Of course, my MMA would have improved immensly and that is fair enough but by the same token this would have made me less informed and therefore less qualified to make comments and to especially give advice on the subject matter of kung fu.

No, I was referring to the Flag Training that I endured whilst at Jun Mo. It is distinctively a 'Jun Mo' thing as I haven't seen any other family train with Flags at all. It's our basis for understanding the 6 point & half pole form and without this type of training I can't see how anyone can claim to even 'know' the pole thoroughly.
That is very interesting and I have never heard of this approach. I am no where near the weapons stage of training in WC.:(

I rarely see training these days that reflects what some of my older colleagues describe. Back in the seventies and eighties students had a very hard time, there were no quick fixes or demands of what 'I' want to learn!
That reminds me of my Wing Chun training with sifu.:)