The Forward stance

[CeruleanRyuujin]

I recently had a debate with another instructor discussing this stance and am curious about other opinions.

What do you all think is the value of doing a forward stance with the lead leg's foot pointing forward vs. turned in at a 45 degree angle?

[EarthDragon]

the obvious is to avoid your opponent from kicking and collasping the side of your knee.
And to perform a quick front snap kick without having to shift your weight. these are basic advantages to knee forward stance.

[MightyB]

I recently had a debate with another instructor discussing this stance and am curious about other opinions.

What do you all think is the value of doing a forward stance with the lead leg's foot pointing forward vs. turned in at a 45 degree angle?

You make your b@lls a better target with the toes forward. Might as well just square up the ol' shoulders while you're at it. :D

[Codeboy]

Yeah, Sifu would make you pay for that every time too!! :eek:

[mkriii]

I recently had a debate with another instructor discussing this stance and am curious about other opinions.

What do you all think is the value of doing a forward stance with the lead leg's foot pointing forward vs. turned in at a 45 degree angle?

other than for piviting purposes when kicking I don't see the difference in wheather the foot is staight or at a 45 degree angle. But then again who is really going to get in that stance in an actual fight? Not me. Thats like saying your going to fight from ma bu.

[Citong Shifu]

Toe Forward / Toe in 45 degree -

These are variations of the same stance, Bow Stance or Forward Stance... When the toe is forward it is implied that the toe can be turned inward and vice versa.... Be careful not to over define kung fu. Yin Yang principles and its "variations", no difference between toe in or out, just whats needed at the time or prescibed in training forms, drills, etc...

Take care.

[TenTigers]

also closes off the femoral nerve that runs down the inside of your leg as well as the artery. In some Southern systems, this stance, in a shorter version, is used while fighting. It is not deep, or wide, like a modified sanchin dachi,and there is plenty of mobility, but the structure is maintained.

[Lucas]

Depending on how strictly you believe the 'form' of the stance should be, one could argue that 'a' forward stance is used by every professional fighter in every fight they have pretty much.

[BeiTangLang]

My personal opinion of the difference are these:

maintaining the 45 gives you immediate stopping & control power for the distance traveled. 0 degress just wants to keep your momentum going forward...which is not a bad thing if you are stepping through, but a very bad thing if you intend to stop your momentum.
(BTW,..try this out! It is quite interesting. Take a true, quick, advancing step landing in both a 45 & 0 degree configuration. See what happens!)

45 gives you closure to the groin, 0 does not. This also alligns your leg to somewhat prevent getting hit on the nerve in your thigh by a side kick. the aim has to be more precise.

There are pos & neg about both, but unless I am in transition, the foot should be 45 degrees to my prefference.

Best Wishes,
~BTL

[KwaiChangCaine]

Snap kick from a front stance without weight shift....amazing light body skills .....no?

[EarthDragon]

kwichang, shift the weight from side to side not from back to font. This I thought was obvious to most.

PS please dont troll. you' ve been a member since 2005 but only 15 replies in 3 years? hiding a former identity perhaps?

[KwaiChangCaine]

Nah no troll, just often have little to say that hasn't been said. No no other IDs here ever. Is there a minimum post count requirement I'm not familiar with in order to avoid the troll designation?

I'll admit I was feeling light hearted when I made the light body comment.

So please help a novice understand what most know about shifting weight to the side (shifting weight means no stepping right?) that would allow a front snap kick to take place from the front leg while in a front stance without a shift of weight to the rear leg. Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean?

Thanks!

[EarthDragon]

sorry Kwaichang, didnt mean to suggest. just after so many years on here when people that dont post over a long time post comments usually means they are stirring things up..... my apologies.

front snap with toes pointing forward would be different than with the side of the foot if the toe was 45 degrees you must shift weight. again i said that the first thinag that comes to mind is basic, difference and obvious one was in my original post.

[KwaiChangCaine]

All,

I was taught that when in toes forward position the knee is open to frontal attack with no where to go but back, at 45 degrees it is collapsable (SP?) leaving more response options.

Thoughts?

Earth Dragon,
What would I be stirring up? Now I'm curious.

[EarthDragon]

stirring up trouble or mischief, but now I realize that is not the case and you are sincere so again sorry for prejudging.

[TenTigers]

ok, guys. get a room.

[EarthDragon]

LOL sorry for being nice I forgot where I was. he he

This is a kung fu board no lovey dovey, only bloody bloody. now lets fight to defend our honnor

[mkriii]

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by a forward stance.....is that the same as a front/bo stance? If so would you really want to fight from this position? I wouldn't.

[Citong Shifu]

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by a forward stance.....is that the same as a front/bo stance? If so would you really want to fight from this position? I wouldn't.


Depends on your intent - Training or Self Defense / Fighting. As far as a front or Bow stance, everyone uses this technique when they execute a forward or front lunge. But then again, I guess it depends on one's "definition" of a front lunge. Anywho, As I've stated before, use what is needed. These applications are merely "variations" of the front stance technique...

Take care all...
CS

[MasterKiller]

All,

I was taught that when in toes forward position the knee is open to frontal attack with no where to go but back, at 45 degrees it is collapsable (SP?) leaving more response options.



Assuming your left leg is forward, the best way to block a standard roundkick is to turn the front knee OUT at 45°. This A) prevents the knee from collapsing B) turns the sensitive area of the leg away from the strike and C) allows the kicking leg to slide up a bit so you can wrap it up and setup a takedown.

[KwaiChangCaine]

Interesting option. If I could avoid the hit to the knee or use the momentum to respond I would prefer that.

[Lucas]

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by a forward stance.....is that the same as a front/bo stance? If so would you really want to fight from this position? I wouldn't.

Being literal here.

No one wants to fight from this position sure. But we all use this position to fight, at one point or another.

These guys are using a "bow stance" in this picture.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/arash_markazi/06/03/morton.mma/p1_morton-wireimage.jpg

[bakxierboxer]

Being literal here......

No one wants to fight from this position sure. But we all use this position to fight, at one point or another.

These guys are using a "bow stance" in this picture.


Izzat whatchu callit? {snort!}

More like being "liberal" in calling it a stance of any type/kind

[Lucas]

its definately a forward stance. pay more attention to the guy on the left who is getting the best of that exchange at the moment. its in motion. thats what a bow stance looks like if your standing high.....its not your static held low training shaolin bow stance but it is a forward stance. in correlation to chinese martial arts it would be a high, in motion, forward bow stance. it was also the first picture i found with a guy in a forward stance when i googled "MMA"

actually, in my chen training my sifu changed the stance in a section of the old form when you do a punch from a low 'traditional' bow stance to something similar to that yet with more of a western boxing flavor.

you can actually hit **** hard and be quite mobile for footwork. of course hes the master and has tons of experience...

And for the record i am quite liberal in what i view a stance. I practice traditional shaolin and do my fair share of traditional stances and transitions, but keep in mind any way we stand is a stance. if you are on your feet you are ALWAYS in one stance or another. always. boxing has a forward stance as much as kungfu, they just look different but achieve much of the same goal. hell highschool wrestling constantly uses the horse stance, in motion and transition.

but i was quite literal in the sence that we all do fight from a forward stance at one point or another.

maybe you dont.....

[bakxierboxer]

its definately a forward stance. pay more attention to the guy on the left who is getting the best of that exchange at the moment. its in motion. thats what a bow stance looks like if your standing high.....its not your static held low training shaolin bow stance but it is a forward stance. in correlation to chinese martial arts it would be a high, in motion, forward bow stance.

It is still not a "stance".
It is a transitional (partial) "step" following what should have been the *moment* in which he made contact utilizing his "stance".
To some degree (depending on its timing) it might be a bit more like the "Gorilla Stepping" seen in some Tibetan-based White Crane. Chan Tai San showed quite a bit of that (or something similar) in one or more of the videos his students have up on YouTube.



actually, in my chen training my sifu changed the stance in a section of the old form when you do a punch from a low 'traditional' bow stance to something similar to that yet with more of a western boxing flavor.

I won't make any comments on Chen Style.



you can actually hit **** hard and be quite mobile for footwork.

When, and if, that is the combination of qualities you're looking to use, then it is appropriate.



And for the record i am quite liberal in what i view a stance. I practice traditional shaolin and do my fair share of traditional stances and transitions, but keep in mind any way we stand is a stance.

Quite true.
Equally, you should keep in mind that "any way we step is a step". :D :D




if you are on your feet you are ALWAYS in one stance or another. always. boxing has a forward stance as much as kungfu, they just look different but achieve much of the same goal. hell highschool wrestling constantly uses the horse stance, in motion and transition.

Hmmmm..... "transitions"?
Darn, aren't they often called "steps"?


but i was quite literal in the sence that we all do fight from a forward stance at one point or another.

maybe you dont.....

I do not. (fight from a stance)
I use stepping and stances in fighting.
I do not recommend that anyone fight from any given stance.
That implies a static/waiting game and is often not advantageous in a fight.

[SimonM]

Bakxierboxer is right.

[Lucas]

It is still not a "stance".
It is a transitional (partial) "step" following what should have been the *moment* in which he made contact utilizing his "stance".


I get what you are saying here. Makes perfect sense when described in that way. Lets me see where you are coming from.


Personally I have always viewed that moment when I root on contact with certain strikes to 'be in stance' i know when i generally make contact with someone or something, im trying to pull as much of the ground into it as i can with where my stance is at that particular moment.

to be quite literal, by definition a 'stance' is any position or bearing while on the feet. even in motion. even 'stepping' is done in stance, or rather this is how i was taught.

i think at this point it all comes down to semantics. some peoples interpretations of what 'stance' means obviously can vary quite a bit. during my shaolin training all of our 'stepping' exersizes were also called stance training, same as with our standing meditation, although we were in motion the entire time.

I just go off of the training ive recieved.

when i say we all fight from stance at one point or another, this is the mindset i refer with.

trasitions, steps, words....

if you read my posts you'll see i dont reccommend anyone fighting from a static stance. i actually said 'no one wants to fight from this position'....

but Que Sera Sera, we have differing use of words that seems to point at basically the same thing, judging from what you wrote and what is in my mind. I'll leave it at that.

[bakxierboxer]

Bakxierboxer is right.

Strangely, that happens from time to time.........

[bakxierboxer]

I get what you are saying here. Makes perfect sense when described in that way. Lets me see where you are coming from.

Cool!
I'd even settle for making a bit less than "perfect" sense! :rolleyes:



Personally I have always viewed that moment when I root on contact with certain strikes to 'be in stance' i know when i generally make contact with someone or something, im trying to pull as much of the ground into it as i can with where my stance is at that particular moment.

"Rooting" can be done on one foot. (YMMV)
The "pull" is not available without having both feet rooting.
The "single-weighting" is found in TCC and many Northern styles.
Northern styles tend to excel in using "momentum" for power.
Southern styles tend to excel in using the "torque" they can generate with that "pull".
When possible, it can be advantageous to combine both capabilities in one's art.



to be quite literal, by definition a 'stance' is any position or bearing while on the feet.

Hmm....."feet" is plural, but I won't go so far as to say that there are no single-weighted/footed stances.



even in motion. even 'stepping' is done in stance, or rather this is how i was taught.

"stepping" is done between stances and can supply mobility which furthers the pursuit of
tactical/evasive/aggressive/"energetic" advantage.



i think at this point it all comes down to semantics.

That's not really a "dirty word", ya know?



some peoples interpretations of what 'stance' means obviously can vary quite a bit.

It's usually a good idea to actually "say what you mean".



we have differing use of words that seems to point at basically the same thing, judging from what you wrote and what is in my mind. I'll leave it at that.

OK.... now. :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

Today I was walking to my truck when I seen a large Mantis on my gate. He seen me coming toward him and turned and took a fighting stance. I looked at him and laughed. His guard was too open and he did not protect his center. His stance was too wide and was not able to move quickly. I said to him, your gung fu is weak, therefore I am not threatened by you. So I walked past and did not crush him.

[Crushing Step]

I use the forward(bow) stance as transitional, not a static fighting stance. In other words, feet twisted in to cover the nads or whatever is just not in my mind whatsoever. If you are close enough to kick me in the groin, I am already in contact with you and we're going to the ground.

I will say that I find this and the horse stance useful in rooting your weight for a throw. To shift between a horse and a bow stance while in contact with the opponents hips severely disturbs the center of gravity, making throws much more effective.